Anyone help me with component ID for X5DIJ-SX039C laptop (k501j mobo)?

[Chris from London]

Went to try to fix my daughters ASUS laptop and made it much worse :)
She did not have her power supply so I used mine - I have an ASUS netbook. The plug was not the same but the VA are so I rigged up what I thought was the correct one but when I plugged it in it would not light the "PSU connected light". Although the laptop worked, without a charger it was no use.

As it was working before I got my hands on it I assume my connector somehow caused the PSU circuit to blow. The DC Jack goes to a plug on the mobo and I tested it in situ - there was 19v at the mobo socket, so the prob is further down the line.

I had to take the laptop completely apart to get at the mobo components to test points, and cannot easily re-connect everything to test the whole. I stripped it down and sure enough there is a burnt-out component - looks like a SM cap (MLCC) but cannot be 100% certain due to ignorance.

The mobo is an asus k501j

Found the schematic (https://googledrive.com/host/0ByM1ELG0t6mgZlJsRmRZcXhSVWM/pub/asus_k40ij_k50ij_rev_1.1_sch.pdf although it is for rev 1.1 and my board is rev 2.1) so have extracted the PSU Section and added it to the photo.

It looks as if the burnt one is an MLCC - a capacitor but, as I am not sure I have got the right schematic and cannot trace the wiring on the board itself (it is too thick) I guess I can only go ahead and replace it and hope for the best.

Can I test the mobo with nothing apart from power or do I need to reassemble? Can I simply remove the component and see if the laptop works without it? There could be a further fault. Presumably I do not need a MLCC - a regular cap would do it provided it is rated at 25v? Thought I could maybe try to find one on an old computer board as it looks like you cannot easily buy just one MLCC.

Hers a photo of the mobo showing the component and the schematic:
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/zeus_1066/domtech/laptop/asus-k501j-burnt-out-schemtoo_zps3829aba0.png

Here is a bigger pic of just the mobo:
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/zeus_1066/domtech/laptop/k501jmoborear_zps25b04b6d.jpg

Any help gratefully appreciated.

[Phil Allison]

"Chris from London"

>Hers a photo of the mobo showing the component
> and the schematic:
>
>http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/zeus_1066/domtech/laptop/asus-k501j-burnt-out-schemtoo_zps3829aba0.png

** What I see your arrow pointing at is a burnt looking SMD tantalum cap
(C6802) and immediately to it's left a missing part - Schottky diode
(D6801). The cap further to the left is an MLCC.

With reverse polarity at the DC jack, the diode would heat, melt the solder
and fall off the PCB - then the tantalum cops reverse voltage and
explodes.

I strongly suspect there is other damage too.



.... Phil

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 19 Jan 2014 16:27:11 -0800 (PST), Chris from London
<te...@setzweb.com> wrote:

>Went to try to fix my daughters ASUS laptop and made it much worse :)

Welcome to Learn by Destroying(tm).

>She did not have her power supply so I used mine - I have an ASUS netbook.
>The plug was not the same but the VA are

It's not the power (VA) that needs to be the same. It's the polarity,
voltage, and current rating. The polarity and voltage need to be
exact. The current rating can be higher.

>so I rigged up what I thought
>was the correct one but when I plugged it in it would not light the
>"PSU connected light". Although the laptop worked, without a charger
>it was no use.

So, just buy the correct charger and try it.

>As it was working before I got my hands on it I assume my connector
>somehow caused the PSU circuit to blow. The DC Jack goes to a plug
>on the mobo and I tested it in situ - there was 19v at the mobo socket,
>so the prob is further down the line.

Offhand, I would guess that you applied reverse power. Please check
and compare the polarity markings on the laptop serial number tag and
the charger.

>Here's a photo of the mobo showing the component and the schematic:
>http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/zeus_1066/domtech/laptop/asus-k501j-burnt-out-schemtoo_zps3829aba0.png

I took the liberty of expanding your photo so I could see the
components.
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/asus-k501j.jpg>
The "hole" in the burnt out component is characteristic of applying
reverse polarity to an active device such as a diode. I would guess
that the diode exploded, blowing the top off the epoxy package.

As Phil notes, there could be other damage. I think this is going to
be an uphill battle and a difficult fix. Good luck.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Mike Tomlinson]

In article <v22pd9hm1r5br9004...@4ax.com>, Jeff Liebermann
<je...@cruzio.com> writes

><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/asus-k501j.jpg>
>The "hole" in the burnt out component is characteristic of applying
>reverse polarity to an active device such as a diode. I would guess
>that the diode exploded, blowing the top off the epoxy package.

The 8-pin IC next to it also looks burnt.

To the OP: forget it, this is not economically repairable. Buy your
daughter a new machine and use the correct charger in future.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

[dave]

A diode is not an active device

[jurb...@gmail.com]

> A diode is not an active device

It was pretty active there for a second.

[Mike Tomlinson]

In article <b1bd46bc-bcf2-4c9f...@googlegroups.com>,
jurb...@gmail.com writes

>> A diode is not an active device
>
>It was pretty active there for a second.

Heh. Probably sacrificed itself to protect the fuse.

[Michael A. Terrell]

> A diode is not an active device.


Then explain the Gunn Diode. DC in, RF out. How about LEDs? DC in,
Photons out.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

[dave]

On 01/21/2014 03:04 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>
> dave wrote:
>>
>> On 01/21/2014 07:24 AM, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
>>> In article <v22pd9hm1r5br9004...@4ax.com>, Jeff Liebermann
>>> <je...@cruzio.com> writes
>>>
>>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/asus-k501j.jpg>
>>>> The "hole" in the burnt out component is characteristic of applying
>>>> reverse polarity to an active device such as a diode. I would guess
>>>> that the diode exploded, blowing the top off the epoxy package.
>>>
>>> The 8-pin IC next to it also looks burnt.
>>>
>>> To the OP: forget it, this is not economically repairable. Buy your
>>> daughter a new machine and use the correct charger in future.
>>>
>>
>> A diode is not an active device.
>
>
> Then explain the Gunn Diode. DC in, RF out. How about LEDs? DC in,
> Photons out.
>
>

An active device is any type of circuit component with the ability to
electrically control electron flow (electricity controlling
electricity). In order for a circuit to be properly called electronic,
it must contain at least one active device. Components incapable of
controlling current by means of another electrical signal are called
passive devices. Resistors, capacitors, inductors, transformers, and
even diodes are all considered passive devices.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_1/2.html

[jurb...@gmail.com]

>"Then explain the Gunn Diode. DC in, RF out.

Also the tunnel diode.

[Phil Allison]

"dave"

>>> A diode is not an active device.

** Most sources say it is classed as one.

>> Then explain the Gunn Diode. DC in, RF out. How about LEDs? DC in,
>> Photons out.
>>
>

> http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_1/2.html
>

** And Wiki says otherwise:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_component


Semiconductors and vacuum tubes are automatically "active devices".

So that includes solid state and vacuum diodes too.



.... Phil

[William Sommerwerck]

"Phil Allison" wrote in message news:bkb5sl...@mid.individual.net...

** And Wiki says otherwise:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_component

Wikipedia is wrong.

[Phil Allison]

"William Sommerwanker = Retard, Autistic and Lunatic."



** Get cancer and die - you stinking nut case.

[et...@whidbey.com]

In 2013 Wikipedia was compared to a major printed encyclopedia (I
don't remember which right now) and the percentage of errors was
pretty much the same for both. This is not to say that the errors were
the same or on the same subject or in any other way related except
that they were errors. The point is that they both contain errors. So
William could indeed be correct when he says that Wikipedia is wrong.
If that is truly the case then I think it would be a good thing if he
corrected the Wikipedia article and used references to back up the
correction. I really appreciate all the time folks have spent, and
continue to spend, on entries to Wikipedia. It is obvious that many
people have spent many hours researching, documenting, and writing for
Wikipedia and all this effort is unpaid. Since I have so far not been
able to contribute any information to Wikipedia my only recourse has
been to contribut cash. I hope William has the time and inclination to
correct the errors he has seen on this subject in Wikipedia.
Eric

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

[Phil Allison]

<et...@whidbey.com>

> Eric


** Fuck off - you trolling idiot.

[dave]

Wiki is the style of the reference. It doesn't really speak. Many things
oscillate when excited but they don't control anything. Is a quartz
crystal an active device?

[Phil Allison]

"dave" <rick...@earthlink.net>


Fuck off - TENTH wit TROLL !!

[Michael Black]

But wikipedia is for everyone.

The fact that someone doesn't know anything doesn't matter. They read a
book or see a movie, and then start an entry for it. They aren't allowed
to "create the facts" themselves, they have to have references. I've seen
entries that are like short versions of books, people able to point to the
bit in the book, but unable to evaluate the information because they've
not read anything more.

The first time I saw mention of wikipedia, someone had pointed to the
entry for Don Lancaster's TV Typewriter. But for some reason, someone
missed the early details, just had information from the second book (where
he jammed NOPs into a CPU so it would advance the address counter and thus
cycle through memory). But someone didn't know that there was the earlier
method with counters and all that, so they couldn't question what was
missing or wrong. I said "but that's not complete" and detailed why. A
couple of days later, someone had fixed the entry.

Of course, some of the errors come because there's not enough unifying.
My great, great, great grandfather has an entry, it mentions one of the
children being married to another entry, but in that entry for the
husband, it gets the ancestry wrong, and I don't think the husband has a
link to my ancestor. Two entries that have different information should
indicate something is wrong, but if nobody looks at both entries (and they
might not know of the other entry, or the connection) then they'll
never know one has bad information.

Michael

[Michael A. Terrell]

How does the Gunn diode oscillate without gain? How does it have
gain, if it isn't an active component?

[Michael A. Terrell]

dave wrote:
>
> Wiki is the style of the reference. It doesn't really speak. Many things
> oscillate when excited but they don't control anything. Is a quartz
> crystal an active device?

No. It needs external gain, and an initial shock to start the
oscillation. That is usually supplied by the power up delay as the gain
block starts to function.

[dave]

It is not a switch or a valve.

[Michael A. Terrell]

It's a solid state diode that oscillates. DC in, and ~10 GHZ out.
Search on Gunnplexer. You see them on automatic doors in almost every
store. A microwave mixer diode takes a sample from the Gunn diode and
compares it to any reflected signals. This results in a low frequency
signal that is detected, amplified and signals the door to open. How can
a passive diode do that?

[dave]

Like I said. You can hit a piece of quartz with a hammer and it will
oscillate; that doesn't mean it's considered and active device. An
active device uses one signal [current, voltage] to control another. As
in amplify or switch. Thermionic valve, transistor, SCR, Triac is what
we are going for.

[Michael Black]

I can't keep track of this argument.

But, that piece of quartz, the output will start decaying in volume almost
immediately. It requires an active device to keep that going.

Michael

[Michael A. Terrell]

Dave is as clueless as Allison. He would freak if he saw a 'carbon
amplifier' in operation.

[Michael A. Terrell]

dave wrote:
>
> On 01/23/2014 06:05 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> >
> > dave wrote:
> >>
> >> On 01/23/2014 06:45 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>
> >>>
> >> It is not a switch or a valve.
> >
> >
> > It's a solid state diode that oscillates. DC in, and ~10 GHZ out.
> > Search on Gunnplexer. You see them on automatic doors in almost every
> > store. A microwave mixer diode takes a sample from the Gunn diode and
> > compares it to any reflected signals. This results in a low frequency
> > signal that is detected, amplified and signals the door to open. How
> > can a passive diode do that?
> >
>
> Like I said. You can hit a piece of quartz with a hammer and it will
> oscillate; that doesn't mean it's considered and active device.

No, it will crush the quartz, resulting in one spike as it breaks up.

> An active device uses one signal [current, voltage] to control another.

Like a 'Carbon Amplifier'?

> As in amplify or switch. Thermionic valve, transistor, SCR, Triac is
> what we are going for.

A rectifier is a switch. Diodes are used as mixers, and the
rectifiers a poorly designed power supply can generate RF that is
coupled into the power line.


Sigh. Small minds like yours will never learn anything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunn_diode


The Gunn diode is based on the Gunn effect, and both are named for the
physicist J. B. Gunn who, at IBM in 1962, discovered the effect because
he refused to accept inconsistent experimental results in gallium
arsenide as "noise", and tracked down the cause. Alan Chynoweth, of Bell
Telephone Laboratories, showed in June 1965 that only a
transferred-electron mechanism could explain the experimental
results.[3] The interpretation refers to the Ridley-Watkins-Hilsum
theory.

The Gunn effect, and its relation to the Watkins-Ridley-Hilsum effect
entered the monograph literature in the early 1970s, e.g. in books on
transferred electron devices[4] and, more recently on nonlinear wave
methods for charge transport.[5] Several other books that provided the
same coverage were published in the intervening years, and can be found
by searching library and bookseller catalogues on Gunn effect.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esaki_diode AKA Tunnel diode was invented
in 1958. It was used as a 14 GHz amplifier in Intelsat V satellite
receiver.

[Jerry Peters]

So a relay is an active device?

[Phil Allison]

"Jerry Peters"

>
>> An active device uses one signal [current, voltage] to control another.
>
> So a relay is an active device?

** Trying to define a word or term *out of context* is doomed to failure.

A relay is not an *electronics* device - it is an electro mechanical one
that predates "electronics" by about 100 years.

The invention of the vacuum tube triode kicked it off but the word
"electronics" was not applied until the late 1940s - to cover the fields of
radio, radar, computers and TV.

It had a previous life as the name of a branch of physics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronics


FYI: if yo want to buy a diode, I suggest you do not waste time looking it
up in an electronics catalogue under the heading of "passive components".


.... Phil

[jurb...@gmail.com]

There ya go. Forget wiki, Webster's and all that, ask Digikey !

[Phil Allison]

<jurb...@gmail.com>


** Get cancer and die you criminal fucking nut case.

[dave]

I will cop to "clueless". That's why I look stuff up first. A tube,or a
transistor (any gated device really) is an active device. They control
one current with another. They amplify. They switch. They invert
polarity sometimes.

[dave]

On 01/24/2014 03:22 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>
> dave wrote:
>>
>> On 01/23/2014 06:05 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>>>
>>> dave wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 01/23/2014 06:45 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>>
>>>>>
>>>> It is not a switch or a valve.
>>>
>>>
>>> It's a solid state diode that oscillates. DC in, and ~10 GHZ out.
>>> Search on Gunnplexer. You see them on automatic doors in almost every
>>> store. A microwave mixer diode takes a sample from the Gunn diode and
>>> compares it to any reflected signals. This results in a low frequency
>>> signal that is detected, amplified and signals the door to open. How
>>> can a passive diode do that?
>>>
>>
>> Like I said. You can hit a piece of quartz with a hammer and it will
>> oscillate; that doesn't mean it's considered and active device.
>
>
> No, it will crush the quartz, resulting in one spike as it breaks up.
>
>
>> An active device uses one signal [current, voltage] to control another.
>
>
> Like a 'Carbon Amplifier'?
>
>
>> As in amplify or switch. Thermionic valve, transistor, SCR, Triac is
>> what we are going for.
>
>
> A rectifier is a switch. Diodes are used as mixers, and the
> rectifiers a poorly designed power supply can generate RF that is
> coupled into the power line.
>
>
> Sigh. Small minds like yours will never learn anything.
>

Oscillators do not use one signal to control another. A Gunn diode is a
lot like a neon lamp meets quartz crystal. Not a switch. Not an amplifier.

It's a relatively stupid minor point. I looked it up. I am not going to
be convinced with silliness like "carbon amplifiers".

[dave]

A relay is a solenoid (no) and a switch (no).

[Michael A. Terrell]

Sigh. Study that technology, rather than make a fool of yourself.
The proper bias creates a negative resistance, which provides gain.


A neon has hysteresis, not gain. They require a current limiting
resistor, or they will explode. They turn on at a higher voltage than
they turn off so a capacitor across the neon will charge, until the lamp
fires. The cap discharges to the extinguishing point, and repeats the
cycle. We built sirens with a couple neons, a 35W4 and a 50C5 tube back
in the '60s

> It's a relatively stupid minor point. I looked it up. I am not going to
> be convinced with silliness like "carbon amplifiers".

It's not silly. They were used to provide gain in early days of
electronics. It was a carbon mic, coupled do a earpiece. They had plenty
of gain. Find an old 500 series desk phone and pull the cotton wadding
out of the handle. You'll get feedback. Then there are Magnetic
Amplifiers. There is a whole world of electronics you've never seen.
How about 'Electrolytic Rectifiers'? They were one of the first crude,
but useable ways to convert AC to DC without using a motor/generator
set.

[jurb...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, January 25, 2014 8:44:18 PM UTC-5, Phil Allison wrote:
> <> ** Get cancer and die you criminal fucking nut case.

You suck aborigines dick with that mouth ?

[Jerry Peters]

But it controls one signal with another.

What about a PIN diode, or even an ordinary switching diode. They've
been commonly used to switch an small ac signal with a dc voltage for
*years*.

[Jerry Peters]

Phil Allison <phi...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
> "Jerry Peters"
>>
>>> An active device uses one signal [current, voltage] to control another.
>>
>> So a relay is an active device?
>
>
> ** Trying to define a word or term *out of context* is doomed to failure.

It's called reductio ad absurdum, it's a rhetorical technique Phil.

[Jerry Peters]

Or the PIN diode, commonly used to switch rf with a dc voltage.

To get oscillation you need to provide gain to overcome the circuit
losses, so you have some type of amplification happening, which
implies an active device.

Dave doesn't seem to understand any of this, he just keeps parroting
the same words repeatedly.

[Kaz Kylheku]

We should probably apply the "active" or "passive" designation to circuits
rather than devices. When we say that a device is active, it means that the
only sensible way of using it is in the role where it provides an active
circuit.

A passive circuit is one in which the energy source for driving the output
signals is derived from the input signals, rather than from some auxiliary
power supply.

Anything else is an active circuit.

Because the energy for driving outputs is derived from inputs in a passive
device, a passive device can never amplify power; though if it contains
inductors, it can step voltage up or down and thereby modify impedance.

A logic inverter circuit built on a relay is definitely active. Justification:
the device produces an output which is based on the input, but which does not
draw energy from the input at all to power the output. Power is applied to the
switch, in series with a load resistor. This energy source is not considered
an input signal.

If the relay's switch is used to pass through or cut off a signal (say as part
of a multiplexer), then we can regard it as passive. When the signal passes
through the relay, it does so without amplification: the output is powered by
the input. The next and previous device are not isolated from each other's
impedances in any way by the relay; it is transparent. Moreover, the relay's
coil is powered by *its* input: the switching mechanism itself does not have
its own source of power.

(Note that by the same logic, we could argue that a FET used for signal
switching also gives rise to a passive circuit.)

[dave]

No reason to curse. I will concede because I'm tired of arguing. Y'all
are being too abstruse for me to keep up. One final offering from the
old Rane Pro Audio Reference.
...
active component Electronics. A component requiring power to operate,
e.g. a transistor. Contrast with passive.

passive component Electronics. A component that does not require power
to operate, e.g., a resistor. Contrast with active.

...

nothing is resolved, other than I am stupid and you know all.

[William Sommerwerck]

"dave" wrote in message
news:EpWdnYhstYKnEHjP...@earthlink.com...

active component: A component requiring power to operate,

e.g. a transistor. Contrast with passive.

passive component: A component that does not require power

to operate, e.g., a resistor. Contrast with active.

That isn't the way I learned. As someone else said, an active device provides
amplification of some sort.

The question of /control/ is another matter.

[jurb...@gmail.com]

>"passive component Electronics. A component that does not require power
to operate, e.g., a resistor. Contrast with active. "

Umm, if a resistor is operating witthout power, just what is it doing ?

Hey, I am not being a pain, it's the subject.

[Maynard A. Philbrook Jr.]

In article <lc457s$5t2$1...@dont-email.me>, grizzle...@comcast.net
says...

It's a very simple concept...

Any device that operates as intended with out power or
biasing is passive.



jamie

[Maynard A. Philbrook Jr.]

In article <67e67102-a88c-403d...@googlegroups.com>,
jurb...@gmail.com says...

Do you need power or assistance to pass gas?

Jamie

[Phil Allison]

<jurb...@gmail.com>

[Phil Allison]

"Jerry Peters"
> Phil Allison

>>
>> "Jerry Peters"
>>>
>>>> An active device uses one signal [current, voltage] to control another.
>>>
>>> So a relay is an active device?
>>
>>
>> ** Trying to define a word or term *out of context* is doomed to failure.
>
> It's called reductio ad absurdum, it's a rhetorical technique Phil.

** I figured you were being facetious.

But YOU failed to see the discussion is only about "electronic devices" .

Which relays are not.


.... Phil

[Jerry Peters]

jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
>>"passive component Electronics. A component that does not require power
> to operate, e.g., a resistor. Contrast with active. "
>
> Umm, if a resistor is operating witthout power, just what is it doing ?

Nothing? I picked up on that one too, if it's not disipating some
power than there's no current flow through it.

[Jerry Peters]

Phil Allison <phi...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
> "Jerry Peters"
>> Phil Allison
>>>
>>> "Jerry Peters"
>>>>
>>>>> An active device uses one signal [current, voltage] to control another.
>>>>
>>>> So a relay is an active device?
>>>
>>>
>>> ** Trying to define a word or term *out of context* is doomed to failure.
>>
>> It's called reductio ad absurdum, it's a rhetorical technique Phil.
>
>
> ** I figured you were being facetious.

I was actually trying to get dave to *think*, but he doesn't seem to
be capable of it. It's much like the definition of a word, there can
be multiple, sometimes even contradictory meanings, and also
implications or overtones to a particular word choice.

>
> But YOU failed to see the discussion is only about "electronic devices" .
>
> Which relays are not.

If he gets to define what an active or passive device is *I* can
define what an "electronic" device is.

WHat about a magnetic amplifier?

[jurb...@gmail.com]

?"But YOU failed to see the discussion is only about "electronic devices" .

Which relays are not. "

Why, because they have no silicon or PN junction ? then you rule out tubes/valvs. If the exception is made because of a filament and thermionic emission, then what about gas fired tubes/valves like a 0Z4 or whatever ?

Sometimes the process of elimination is useful. What is NOT an activ device ?

Capacitor
Resistor
Inductor
Switch

That would mean then that a relay is not an active electronic device because the two main compnents are not active.

However, in a transistor....

If a diode is not active, why ? You can modulate with it. You can switch with it. This can be done with solid state diodes or otherwise.

So does the addition of the second junction in a bipolar transistor make it active ? does the addition of a grid in a tube/valve make it active ?

All of this, no matter how useless an argument (nobody has any work to do ?), is coming down to the point where a diode is an active device.

[Kaz Kylheku]

On 2014-01-28, jurb...@gmail.com <jurb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If a diode is not active, why ? You can modulate with it. You can switch with it. This can be done with solid state diodes or otherwise.

A diode is not active by itself, because it's a two-port circuit. There is no
way for it to have an input which controls an output.

> So does the addition of the second junction in a bipolar transistor make it
> active ? does the addition of a grid in a tube/valve make it active ?

No; you also need a circuit to make it active. The minimum active circuit
you can make with a three-port device is a three-port current source.
Two terminals of the device are placed into a power circuit, and the third
terminal controls the flow of current.

Using a three-port transistor or tube triode device, plus some additional
components, like at least one resistor, we can make a four-port active circuit
based on voltages: something that takes an input voltage on one port, produces
an output on another port, and has a third port where power is supplied, so
that the input isn't driving the output.

The rule of thumb is: if inputs can control the flow of energy from the
outputs, without supplying most of that energy, then the situation is active.

If the output energy is derived from the inputs, then it is passive.

To apply this ide, we have to identify what is an energy source, what are
inputs, and what is the output (and in what form).

Example of an active device: power steering in a car. The input is you, turning
the wheel, which requires little force because of an energy source within the
power steering which actually turns the wheels.

Unpowered steering is passive: all of the energy to move the wheels comes from
you, turning the wheel.

(The rack and pinion gives you a mechanical advantage. We have such a passive
transmission in electricity also, namely the transformer. Though the
transformer adapts impedance and changes voltages and currents, all of the
output power comes from the input, so it is passive.)

[Phil Allison]

"Jerry Peters"
>> Phil Allison

>
>> ** I figured you were being facetious.
>
> I was actually trying to get dave to *think*, but he doesn't seem to
> be capable of it.

** No fooling ?

> It's much like the definition of a word, there can
> be multiple, sometimes even contradictory meanings, and also
> implications or overtones to a particular word choice.
>
>>
>> But YOU failed to see the discussion is only about "electronic devices" .
>>
>> Which relays are not.
>
> If he gets to define what an active or passive device is *I* can
> define what an "electronic" device is.
>
> WHat about a magnetic amplifier?

** Out of context again.

Device = single component here.

"Electronic component " is broad church too, it includes anything electronic
in nature that is intended to be used to create an electronic device.

Active devices do NOT have to be able to amplify signals - that IS what
most of them do but is not the defining issue.

BTW:

I see you are an incorrigible context shifter and a bullshit artist.

Fuck off.


... Phil

[Phil Allison]

<jurb...@gmail.com>

> ?"But YOU failed to see the discussion is only about "electronic devices"
> .
>
> Which relays are not. "
>
> Why,

** Read the rest of that post - you over snipping maniac.

Then go drop fucking dead.

[jurb...@gmail.com]

>"A diode is not active by itself, because it's a two-port circuit. There is no
way for it to have an input which controls an output. "

So your contention then is that tunnel diodes, Gunn diodes and Zener diodes are not active devices.

If that is so, then a magnetron is also passive. It is technically a diode with an indirectly heated cathode unless you consider the magnet an element. Also, what of the case of a Hall effct device ? Nothing electronic controls it, only a magnetic field. Other devices can have more than two terminals aqnd be passive, so where does the Hall effect fit in there ?

[Kaz Kylheku]

On 2014-01-29, jurb...@gmail.com <jurb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>"A diode is not active by itself, because it's a two-port circuit. There is no
> way for it to have an input which controls an output. "
>
> So your contention then is that tunnel diodes, Gunn diodes and Zener diodes
> are not active devices.

I'm trying to classify them as such, but I am unable to think of the
justification.

> If that is so, then a magnetron is also passive. It is technically a diode
> with an indirectly heated cathode unless you consider the magnet an element.
> Also, what of the case of a Hall effct device ? Nothing electronic controls
> it, only a magnetic field. Other devices can have more than two terminals
> aqnd be passive, so where does the Hall effect fit in there ?

These devices can be active if we broaden the definition of "input", and
"energy" and so on beyond electronics. I already gave an example of automobile
power steering being active.

In the case of semiconductor diodes, we have photodiodes. (Actually any
silicon diode reacts to light, just isn't necessarily packaged for that use.)
The two ports of a photodiode can be configured to pass current from a power
supply. The light falling on the junction can be regarded as an input: a third
port which modulates the current. This is then "active": some energy delivery
is modulated in proportion to the light, and yet most of the energy is not
derived from that light.

Hall effect sensors and such can be conceived similarly.

[William Sommerwerck]

An active device provides signal amplification, or it uses amplification as
the basis of its operation. That has always been the definition.

Is digital circuitry active? I'd say yes. The ability to switch a tube or
transistor "on" depends on the device's ability to amplify its input to the
point it's driven into saturation. The amplification mechanism is exactly the
same as when the device amplifies a continuously varying signal.

How about controlled rectifiers? These are four-layer (sometimes more) devices
sometimes modeled as two transistors in a sort of "soixante neuf" arrangement,
a kind of flip-flop. Again, the same transistor amplification mechanism makes
them work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIAC

Magnetic amplifiers use a small current to control a larger one. They're (as
the British would say) "valves", just as tubes and transistors are.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_amplifier

[Jerry Peters]

Kaz Kylheku <k...@kylheku.com> wrote:
> On 2014-01-28, jurb...@gmail.com <jurb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> If a diode is not active, why ? You can modulate with it. You can switch with it. This can be done with solid state diodes or otherwise.
>
> A diode is not active by itself, because it's a two-port circuit. There is no
> way for it to have an input which controls an output.

Switching diode which switches an AC signal with a DC signal. It's
been done for years.

PIN diode which can switch or attenuate an RF signal with a DC
current.

--snip--

[Jerry Peters]

I'd say amplification is a *sufficient* condition but not a necessary
one. A diode can be used as a switch, without amplifying, which I would
argue makes it an active device.

[Kaz Kylheku]

On 2014-01-29, William Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
> An active device provides signal amplification, or it uses amplification as
> the basis of its operation. That has always been the definition.

That is fine, but you have to remember that amplification includes unity gain
(and below).

> Is digital circuitry active? I'd say yes.

I would say that, as a category, no.

Counterexample:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode_logic

[dave]

Pin diodes don't attenuate. They connect resistors.

[William Sommerwerck]

"Jerry Peters" wrote in message news:lcbqi0$ke5$2...@dont-email.me...

> I'd say amplification is a *sufficient* condition but not a necessary
> one. A diode can be used as a switch, without amplifying, which
> I would argue makes it an active device.

So then a light switch is an active device? Hello?

The remarks made here are classic examples of opening one's mouth and stating
whatever pops into one's head, without giving it the least bit of thought.

There's no point in discussing it further. If a device cannot amplify (in the
ordinary, common-sense meaning of the word), it is not an active device.
Otherwise, you could twist the definition so that any and every electronic
component was an active device.

Case closed.

[Phil Allison]

"William Fuckwit Sommerwanker "

>>
>> I'd say amplification is a *sufficient* condition but not a necessary
>> one. A diode can be used as a switch, without amplifying, which
>> I would argue makes it an active device.
>
> So then a light switch is an active device?

** FFS - it not an ELECTRONIC device.

Do you want food mixers and lawn mowers included too ??

> The remarks made here are classic examples of opening one's mouth and
> stating whatever pops into one's head, without giving it the least bit of
> thought.

** Like YOU do all the fucking time - asshole.

> There's no point in discussing it further. If a device cannot amplify (in
> the ordinary, common-sense meaning of the word), it is not an active
> device.

** Crap.

> Otherwise, you could twist the definition so that any and every electronic
> component was an active device.

** Define "electronic component" to mean only those items that are
exclusively electronic in nature and you have got it.

The term " active device" cannot be defined OUT OF CONTEXT !!!!!!

I say it includes to ANY vacuum tube or semiconductor intended to be used in
an electronic circuit - cos that is how most folk working IN ELECTRONICS
use it and dealer's catalogues reflect the fact too.

And Wiki agrees with ME !!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_component#Classification



.... Phil

[Michael A. Terrell]

We used them as band switches in a low noise synthesizer. A DC
voltage would turn the diode on to short out part of the inductor,
raising the center frequency of the VCO. Breaking the 360-510 MHz into
four overlapping segments allowed for more linear and reduced the
effects of noise on the tuning voltage that controlled the tuning.

[Mike Tomlinson]

En el artículo <lcca2a$hfc$1...@dont-email.me>, William Sommerwerck
<grizzle...@comcast.net> escribió:

>The remarks made here are classic examples of opening one's mouth and stating
>whatever pops into one's head, without giving it the least bit of thought.

Welcome to Usenet. :-)

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

[William Sommerwerck]

"Phil Allison" wrote in message news:bktqln...@mid.individual.net...

>> Otherwise, you could twist the definition so that any and every
>> electronic component was an active device.

** Define "electronic component" to mean only those items that are
exclusively electronic in nature and you have got it.

What do you mean by "electronic"? Aren't /all/ devices used in electronic
equipment "electronic" /by definition/?

> The term "active device" cannot be defined OUT OF CONTEXT !!!!!!

True -- the context is amplification.

> I say it includes to ANY vacuum tube or semiconductor intended
> to be used in an electronic circuit - cos that is how most folk
> working IN ELECTRONICS use it and dealer's catalogues reflect

> the fact, too.

I don't care what most people think. I only care about the truth. To call an
ordinary rectifier an active component is beyond stupid. It is not "active",
in any reasonable sense of the term.

Phil, you're like most human beings. You believe what you want to believe,
without thinking about it.

> And Wiki agrees with ME !!!!!

The article is wrong. Too bad.

[William Sommerwerck]

Let's look at this (non-)issue in a broader sense. What was the point of
applying the adjective "active" to particular devices?

"Obviously", it was to distinguish them from non-active devices. And prior to
the Audion, there /were/ no active devices -- devices that /amplified/.

Several years ago we had an insane argument, in which a significant number of
posters claimed that transducers were amplifiers, twisting the definitions of
these terms into perverse forms.

We are now told that a PIN diode -- which is no more than a switch -- is an
active device, apparently because it's made of semiconductor material, which
/just happens/ to be used in active devices. So -- duh -- they must both be
active devices.

What does the material have to do with it? A switch is a switch. Switches are
not, and have never been, considered active devices. Do PIN diodes get a
special break, just because they're semiconductors? Are we now supposed to
classify the power switch on a table radio as an active device?

Calling an electrical generator an active device is meaningless, because it
doesn't draw any useful distinction with "inactive" devices (such as a rake or
a step ladder). An if an electrical generator is an "active" device, why isn't
a log? A log can be burned to produce energy.

Human beings are incredibly stupid. They believe what their parents tell them,
and almost always stick ferociously to their childhood beliefs throughout
life. They believe that whatever pops into their heads is true, and these
beliefs can only rarely be shaken. Worst of all, humans hardly ever ask "How
do I know whether something is true or not?" Of course, in a democracy it
doesn't matter. One person's point of view is as good as any other person's.

[jurb...@gmail.com]

Whatever it is, I believe that quite possibly by now the OP has been committed to a sanitarium.

[dave]

Electronics is intelligent control of electrons, like the name says.

[Phil Allison]

"William Sommerwanker is a Pschyo Cunt"

> I don't care what most people think.

** The meaning of all words and terms IS what people think they mean.

Autistic fuckwits like WS cannot grasp this obvious truism.

> I only care about the truth.

** Shame how YOU are the biggest DAMN LIAR out.




.... Phi

[William Sommerwerck]

"Phil Allison" wrote in message news:bl36qq...@mid.individual.net...

> I don't care what most people think.

** The meaning of all words and terms IS what people think they mean.

That's one of the reasons the world is so screwed up.

[mike]

On 1/30/2014 7:09 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:

> I don't care what most people think.

So, why keep trying to make them care what
you think?

[William Sommerwerck]

"mike" wrote in message news:lcjk0m$d49$1...@dont-email.me...

On 1/30/2014 7:09 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:

>> I don't care what most people think.

> So, why keep trying to make them care what you think?

Maybe someday I might change a mind or two.

In all my life, I have never met one person who said, "You know, Bill, you're
right. I don't use my intelligence well."

[Michael A. Terrell]

Some people care about reality. All 'Diode' means is two terminals,
but many think only of 'Rectifier'.

[Maynard A. Philbrook Jr.]

In article <3b32a6e4-c7bc-4add...@googlegroups.com>,
jurb...@gmail.com says...

>
> Whatever it is, I believe that quite possibly by now the OP has been committed to a sanitarium.

Big device between an active device and active components!...

I think this all started with the intention of talking about
active components. But I see it has spread out of control like
syphilis.

Jamie

[josephkk]

On Sun, 26 Jan 2014 21:54:48 +0000 (UTC), Kaz Kylheku <k...@kylheku.com>
wrote:

>On 2014-01-25, Jerry Peters <je...@example.invalid> wrote:
>> dave <rick...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> On 01/23/2014 06:05 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>>>>
>>>> dave wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 01/23/2014 06:45 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> It is not a switch or a valve.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's a solid state diode that oscillates. DC in, and ~10 GHZ out.
>>>> Search on Gunnplexer. You see them on automatic doors in almost every
>>>> store. A microwave mixer diode takes a sample from the Gunn diode and
>>>> compares it to any reflected signals. This results in a low frequency
>>>> signal that is detected, amplified and signals the door to open. How can
>>>> a passive diode do that?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Like I said. You can hit a piece of quartz with a hammer and it will
>>> oscillate; that doesn't mean it's considered and active device. An
>>> active device uses one signal [current, voltage] to control another. As
>>> in amplify or switch. Thermionic valve, transistor, SCR, Triac is what
>>> we are going for.
>>>
>>
>>> An active device uses one signal [current, voltage] to control another.
>>
>> So a relay is an active device?
>
>We should probably apply the "active" or "passive" designation to circuits
>rather than devices. When we say that a device is active, it means that the
>only sensible way of using it is in the role where it provides an active
>circuit.
>
>A passive circuit is one in which the energy source for driving the output
>signals is derived from the input signals, rather than from some auxiliary
>power supply.
>
>Anything else is an active circuit.
>
>Because the energy for driving outputs is derived from inputs in a passive
>device, a passive device can never amplify power; though if it contains
>inductors, it can step voltage up or down and thereby modify impedance.
>
>A logic inverter circuit built on a relay is definitely active. Justification:
>the device produces an output which is based on the input, but which does not
>draw energy from the input at all to power the output. Power is applied to the
>switch, in series with a load resistor. This energy source is not considered
>an input signal.
>
>If the relay's switch is used to pass through or cut off a signal (say as part
>of a multiplexer), then we can regard it as passive. When the signal passes
>through the relay, it does so without amplification: the output is powered by
>the input. The next and previous device are not isolated from each other's
>impedances in any way by the relay; it is transparent. Moreover, the relay's
>coil is powered by *its* input: the switching mechanism itself does not have
>its own source of power.
>
>(Note that by the same logic, we could argue that a FET used for signal
>switching also gives rise to a passive circuit.)


And just to trip you up,what about USB to TIA 232 converters?

?-)