Finding the cmos battery

[Cursitor Doom]

Hi all,

I have a Roberts Stream 105 internet radio which I bought about 9
years ago. It's been fine up until maybe 18 months ago when it could
no longer remember my preferred settings. I'm guessing it has a little
backup cell in there somewhere that's gone way past its sell-by date.
I've opened up the case and it must be very well hidden indeed. I
asked Roberts for info on where it is but they obfuscated and told me
to return it to them and they'd fix it for 40 quid! There are no
manuals for this model on line (not service manuals anyway) and I *do*
like to fix things for myself as a matter of course anyway. The inside
consists of only 3 boards apart from the display: an audio board (as
it describes itself) the wireless card (I deduce from the fact that
although it's fully screened it's got a MAC address label on it) and
controller board interfacing to the user controls.
The only place this battery could be hiding is within a screened
enclosure on the "audio board". Now, I should have done this sooner
obviously, but time shortages and whatnot, I've probed the underside
of the screened area and found a persistent 0.3V above ground on some
of the joints. Does that sound like the sort of voltage a backup cell
would fall back to after 9 years? This 0.3V is with all external power
removed and after shorting out any capacitances.

[Peter W.]

My guess is that it is a 2032 button cell - which have been popular for that function for a long time. Are you able to apply about 3V at the appropriate polarity and see if the memory comes back? Or even 1.5V as proof-of-concept?

After which comes the question of whether it is rechargeable (LIR2032) or not (CR2032).

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Cursitor Doom]

I was thinking *if* it is rechargeable, I *could* (could I not?)
replace with an equivalent non-rechargeable in series with a diode to
prevent it from taking a charge it's not designed for?

[Chuck]

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 18:00:32 +0000, Cursitor Doom <c...@noreply.com>
wrote:

Look for a 1/2 to1 farad electrolytic capacitor. Probably near the
upc.

[Cursitor Doom]

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 12:56:07 -0700, KenW
<ken...@invalid.net> wrote:

>On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 13:44:19 -0600, Chuck <chu...@dejanews.net>
>wrote:

>Caps were used to retain voltage to a circuit. Some telephone systems
>I worked on used them.

What? Are you guys saying there may be no actual battery at all? And
they've used an electro in place of one?

[Cursitor Doom]

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 13:44:19 -0600, Chuck <chu...@dejanews.net>
wrote:

At that value it would be a supercapacitor I'd imagine. Were they
installing those in new equipment 10 years ago?

[ohg...@gmail.com]

I remember several consumer electronic items using a "supercap", something like 0.47F. They did go bad certainly.

[Chuck]

Cursitor Doom <c...@noreply.com> Wrote in message:r
> On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 12:56:07 -0700, KenW<ken...@invalid.net> wrote:>On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 13:44:19 -0600, Chuck <chu...@dejanews.net>>wrote:>>>On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 18:00:32 +0000, Cursitor Doom <c...@noreply.com>>>wrote:>>>>>Hi all,>>>>>>I have a Roberts Stream 105 internet radio which I bought about 9>>>years ago. It's been fine up until maybe 18 months ago when it could>>>no longer remember my preferred settings. I'm guessing it has a little>>>backup cell in there somewhere that's gone way past its sell-by date.>>>I've opened up the case and it must be very well hidden indeed. I>>>asked Roberts for info on where it is but they obfuscated and told me>>>to return it to them and they'd fix it for 40 quid! There are no>>>manuals for this model on line (not service manuals anyway) and I *do*>>>like to fix things for myself as a matter of course anyway. The inside>>>consists of only 3 boards apart from the display: an audio board (as>>>it describes itself) the wireless card (I deduce from the fact that>>>although it's fully screened it's got a MAC address label on it) and>>>controller board interfacing to the user controls.>>>The only place this battery could be hiding is within a screened>>>enclosure on the "audio board". Now, I should have done this sooner>>>obviously, but time shortages and whatnot, I've probed the underside>>>of the screened area and found a persistent 0.3V above ground on some>>>of the joints. Does that sound like the sort of voltage a backup cell>>>would fall back to after 9 years? This 0.3V is with all external power>>>removed and after shorting out any capacitances.>>Look for a 1/2 to1 farad electrolytic capacitor. Probably near the>>upc.>>Caps were used to retain voltage to a circuit. Some telephone systems>I worked on used them.What? Are you guys saying there may be no actual battery at all? Andthey've used an electro in place of one?

The .47 to 1F caps have been used for 30 years in stereo receivers.
--

[Cursitor Doom]

On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 21:40:39 -0600 (CST), Chuck <chu...@deja.net>
wrote:

>The .47 to 1F caps have been used for 30 years in stereo receivers.

I'm suitably amazed. Mind you I've never had much to do with them.

[bilou]

On 06/01/2021 21:51, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> At that value it would be a supercapacitor I'd imagine. Were they
> installing those in new equipment 10 years ago?

Sure for memory function but for any active function,like RTC,
batteries are still mostly used.

[Chuck]

On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 14:26:06 +0000, Cursitor Doom <c...@noreply.com>
wrote:

Come to think of it, a Denon tuner that I bought in 1988 has a super
capacitor for memory.

[legg]

On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 20:51:28 +0000, Cursitor Doom <c...@noreply.com>

They were showing up as surplus 20 years ago.

RL

[Cursitor Doom]

Well I can't understand in that case why there are so few of them
listed on Ebay currently. I may have to imrovise here and go back to
my initial idea of using a lithium button cell in series with a diode
to prevent it being charged.

Anyone see any issues with that approach?

[Cursitor Doom]

On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 12:25:54 -0600, Chuck <chu...@dejanews.net>
wrote:

Hmmm. I think clearly the older one gets, the harder it is keeping up
to date with new innovations if you're not fully immersed in the field
as a career (I'm not!)

[Peter W.]

> Anyone see any issues with that approach?

Yes. Purchasing anything of that nature from eBay is an issue. Given that a counterfeit - not unknown from that source - could destroy your unit.

[Chuck]

On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 23:35:36 +0000, Cursitor Doom <c...@noreply.com>

Here is one that is genuine and exactly like the ones I used to use as
a replacement.
https://www.newark.com/kemet/ft0h474zf/supercapacitor-0-47f-5-5v-radial/dp/78AC5690

[Cursitor Doom]

On Fri, 08 Jan 2021 11:44:55 -0600, Chuck <chu...@dejanews.net>

Thanks, but you guys have avoided answering the question about
replacing the supercap with a cell of whatever capacity in series with
a low reverse-leakage diode. Anyone know what the likely voltage that
cell would need to be?

NB: when I say "whatever capacity" I refer to A, AA, AAA, C, D etc.
cells.

[Peter W.]

There is a somewhat detailed answer to that question.
a) Do you know what voltage is needed to keep the memory function in operation?
b) Given that a battery is the mother of all capacitors, just a bit slower as a chemical engine, you should be able to do a proof-of-concept.
c) And once you have determined the operating voltage (somewhere between 1.2 and 3.5 VDC at a guess), you will have several choices, including your diode option. BUT:

Caveat: Batteries do not like seeing a dead/partial short. So when diode you install is not in use and the circuit is OFF, the battery is in parallel with whatever device is in place, whether a super-cap or a button cell, or something else. If that is shorted, so is the battery. OOPS! It really does behoove you to find the OEM source and repair/replace it as designed. You do not want to wake up one morning and find that your installed battery has spilled its guts all over everything.

Remember the Revox B760 tuner? It had two AA cells under the fold-down door on top of the faceplate. Trust the Swiss to take the very simple brute-force approach.

[Cursitor Doom]

On Fri, 8 Jan 2021 10:52:24 -0800 (PST), "Peter W."
<peterw...@gmail.com> wrote:

>There is a somewhat detailed answer to that question.
>a) Do you know what voltage is needed to keep the memory function in operation?
>b) Given that a battery is the mother of all capacitors, just a bit slower as a chemical engine, you should be able to do a proof-of-concept.
>c) And once you have determined the operating voltage (somewhere between 1.2 and 3.5 VDC at a guess), you will have several choices, including your diode option. BUT:
>
>Caveat: Batteries do not like seeing a dead/partial short. So when diode you install is not in use and the circuit is OFF, the battery is in parallel with whatever device is in place, whether a super-cap or a button cell, or >something else. If that is shorted, so is the battery. OOPS! It really does behoove you to find the OEM source and repair/replace it as designed. You do not want to wake up one morning and find that your installed >battery has spilled its guts all over everything.

I'm grateful for your observations. I would just point out that it was
never my intention to leave the original power source in situ! I'm not
quite *that* stupid!

>Remember the Revox B760 tuner? It had two AA cells under the fold-down door on top of the faceplate. Trust the Swiss to take the very simple brute-force approach. ical

I don't know that item,I'm afraid. My experience of electronic repair
is typically 95% vintage boat anchor test equipment, generally at
*least* 25 years old minimum and more likely closer to 40+.

Thanks again.

[ohg...@gmail.com]

Generally speaking, I've found that supercaps used as memory devices are generally run *very* close to their voltage rating, so if your supercap is a 2.7V, there's a good chance there could be 2.5 volts on it. But, you don't need to make this complicated. Plug the radio in and see what the voltage is across the supercap. Most of the supercaps I've changed just go low value/high ESR and don't short. Whatever the voltage is under test, add that via cell. Since the value you need is unlikely (Murphy's Law) to be a direct value of a cell you want to add, you may have to add more than one diode to drop the voltage to or even a bit below the memory voltage.

[Cursitor Doom]

On Fri, 8 Jan 2021 13:54:04 -0800 (PST), "ohg...@gmail.com"
<ohg...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Generally speaking, I've found that supercaps used as memory devices are generally run *very* close to their voltage rating, so if your supercap is a 2.7V, there's a good chance there could be 2.5 volts on it. But, you don't need to make this complicated. Plug the radio in and see what the voltage is across the supercap. Most of the supercaps I've changed just go low value/high ESR and don't short. Whatever the voltage is under test, add that via cell. Since the value you need is unlikely (Murphy's Law) to be a direct value of a cell you want to add, you may have to add more than one diode to drop the voltage to or even a bit below the memory voltage.

Thanks! Just the kind of details I wanted. Must admit I hadn't thought
about using diodes to 'trim' the cell(s) to the correct voltage.

[legg]

On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 23:35:36 +0000, Cursitor Doom <c...@noreply.com>

Do you know what the original back-up source is, yet?

You were just looking at it, in the last report.

You should be able to do a simple repair, without a lot
of useless speculation.

RL

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 1/9/21 8:23 AM, legg wrote:
> You should be able to do a simple repair, without a lot
> of useless speculation.
>
> RL

You forget who we're dealing with.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

[Cursitor Doom]

>Do you know what the original back-up source is, yet?

No I don't! I've had it apart just a few moments ago. So far I have
found NO supercaps. One of the ordinary electros 220uF tested over 5
ohms ESR so I'm going to replace that, but I very much doubt that's
anything to do with the fault in question.

>You were just looking at it, in the last report.
>
>You should be able to do a simple repair, without a lot
>of useless speculation.

IME there's *rarely* any such thing!

I'll post some photos of the internals shortly....

[Cursitor Doom]

Here's some photos of the insides:

https://yandex.com/collections/user/tqdf2ur1bg7j6vdmbh5t7ne1n8/roberts-internet-radio-stream-105/?share=NWZmYTA4MGUxN2I3NTgyMWQyYjYyMjczXzVjZTFmNThkNTFhYTkwNGFmMTM0MzZmMw%3D%3D


Any suggestions?

[legg]

On Sat, 09 Jan 2021 19:49:21 +0000, Cursitor Doom <c...@noreply.com>
wrote:

>Here's some photos of the insides:
>
>https://yandex.com/collections/user/tqdf2ur1bg7j6vdmbh5t7ne1n8/roberts-internet-radio-stream-105/?share=NWZmYTA4MGUxN2I3NTgyMWQyYjYyMjczXzVjZTFmNThkNTFhYTkwNGFmMTM0MzZmMw%3D%3D
>
>
>Any suggestions?

Look at the actual board with the memory on it?

RL

[Cursitor Doom]

Good steer. Unfortunately this is the most inaccessible of the lot;
sandwiched up against the top display module it's impossible to see
what's in there without further disassembly. But now you have
suggested it, I think there's no other obvious course of action here.

Am I still looking solely for a supercap?

[Sjouke Burry]

Yes. Use a valid,working photo website instead of the crap site.

[legg]

On Sat, 09 Jan 2021 22:26:29 +0000, Cursitor Doom <c...@noreply.com>

wrote:

>On Sat, 09 Jan 2021 17:12:36 -0500, legg <le...@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 09 Jan 2021 19:49:21 +0000, Cursitor Doom <c...@noreply.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Here's some photos of the insides:
>>>
>>>https://yandex.com/collections/user/tqdf2ur1bg7j6vdmbh5t7ne1n8/roberts-internet-radio-stream-105/?share=NWZmYTA4MGUxN2I3NTgyMWQyYjYyMjczXzVjZTFmNThkNTFhYTkwNGFmMTM0MzZmMw%3D%3D
>>>
>>>
>>>Any suggestions?
>>
>>Look at the actual board with the memory on it?
>>
>>RL
>
>Good steer. Unfortunately this is the most inaccessible of the lot;
>sandwiched up against the top display module it's impossible to see
>what's in there without further disassembly. But now you have
>suggested it, I think there's no other obvious course of action here.
>
>Am I still looking solely for a supercap?

If it, or a battery, is there, it will be obvious and likely mounted
on the through-hole side of the board.

Niether are small parts, just low profile.

RL

[Cursitor Doom]

OK, got it, thanks.I'll investigate further tomorrow..........

[Bertrand Sindri]

Wait, you've only dissasembled maybe a quarter of the unit, and it has
not occurred to you yet that what you seek just might be in the three
quarters you have not yet disassembled?

[Cursitor Doom]

Yeah, I know, I know. I'm not a technician so I don't think like a
technician; sorry about that.
>

[Adrian Caspersz]

I'd just snip a few wires, dump the guts in the nearest trashcan.

A single board linux computer and an audio amp don't cost much.

--
Adrian C

[Cursitor Doom]

That is a very fair point! However, I'll properly investigate first
(which I'll be doing shortly) and fix the damn thing if I can.

[Adrian Caspersz]

On 10/01/2021 13:17, Cursitor Doom wrote:

>>
>> I'd just snip a few wires, dump the guts in the nearest trashcan.
>>
>> A single board linux computer and an audio amp don't cost much.
>
> That is a very fair point! However, I'll properly investigate first
> (which I'll be doing shortly) and fix the damn thing if I can.
>

If you don't, consider eBay'ing as it is, you might get some interest.

I've got a Roberts Stream 83i.

Great sound quality (the cabinet is a lump of MDF!), and a very
sensitive DAB receiver, but the user interface is very poor and Wifi
stability hopeless.

And then there is this vtuner mess ...

https://swling.com/blog/2019/05/frontier-silicon-and-vtuner-aggregation-aggravation-continues/

https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/2282513/frontier-silicon-portal-not-working

I've given up using Internet Radio on it.

--
Adrian C

[Adrian Caspersz]

On 10/01/2021 13:33, KenW wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 06:30:18 -0700, KenW <ken...@invalid.net> wrote:
>
>>> SNIP
>> I found a manual for a 94i. It said to leave the wall wart plugged in.
>> Maybe it doesn't have internal power !!??
>>
>>
>> KenW
>
> And preprogrammed freqs. are in a rom.
>

There are no "freqs" on the 105.
There is no traditional AM/FM/digital radio tuner in the thing.

Internet only.

Settings beyond WiFi could well be in the cloud.

--
Adrian C

[Cursitor Doom]

Yes, and it remembered my choices perfectly well for many years before
developing dementia, so I think it's fair to assume there's an
internal power supply of some sort.

[Andy Burns]

Cursitor Doom wrote:

> Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>
>> Internet only.

>
> Yes, and it remembered my choices perfectly well for many years before
> developing dementia, so I think it's fair to assume there's an
> internal power supply of some sort.

It might send its unique ID to the cloud, which remembers your
favourites and tells the "radio" every time it boots?

Does it manage to remember your WiFi credentials every time you turn it
on? Try a factory reset if it has one buried in the menus.

Maybe the "favourites" part of the cloud has gone away? Or is
geo-restricted?

[Cursitor Doom]

On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 14:31:52 +0000, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

Well, if they've pulled some sort of stunt like that then it's the
last time I'll ever buy a Roberts radio. It's funny they seemed to
know already what the problem was since they quoted me 40 quid to fix
it I'm just wondering if they don't do anything to the radio but just
renew my subscription or something like that.

I've got the thing apart now and there's nothing amiss visually.
There's no supercaps and no button cells or anything else of that
nature. In fact the only odd thing is that there are several 220uF
caps which are showing as anything between 1000uF and 1200uF on my
Peak ESR70 meter. I've never known caps so far out of tolerance
before. However, I don't think that could explain the issue here
anyway. Sigh...

[Cursitor Doom]

On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 14:31:52 +0000, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

Sorry I forgot to answer your point here:

>Does it manage to remember your WiFi credentials every time you turn it
>on? Try a factory reset if it has one buried in the menus.

Yes, it remembers the password and accesses the router no problem.

[Andy Burns]

Cursitor Doom wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
> Sorry I forgot to answer your point here:
>
>> Does it manage to remember your WiFi credentials every time you turn it
>> on? Try a factory reset if it has one buried in the menus.
>
> Yes, it remembers the password and accesses the router no problem.

So it has *some* functioning non-volatile storage then, wonder if it
constantly writes your favourites to flash and has worn it out?

[Bertrand Sindri]

Cursitor Doom <c...@noreply.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 14:31:52 +0000, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
> wrote:
>
>>Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>
>>> Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>>>
>>>> Internet only.
>>>
>>> Yes, and it remembered my choices perfectly well for many years
>>> before developing dementia, so I think it's fair to assume there's
>>> an internal power supply of some sort.

Why is this "safe to assume"?

If it has access to the internet, then it is *not safe to assume* that
there is an internal power supply of some sort. It is possible that
*every* setting beyond the local WiFi AP credentials is stored on a
server somewhere in the cloud. And the WiFi AP credentials could be
stored in a tiny amount of flash on the main chipset to provide the
bootstrap necessary to find the rest of the settings on some cloud
server.

> It's funny they seemed to know already what the problem was since
> they quoted me 40 quid to fix it I'm just wondering if they don't do
> anything to the radio but just renew my subscription or something
> like that.

Why would you think this vs. the more typical option of the minimum
wage phone worker having a table of "customer quoted symptoms" vs.
"quoted repair cost" and the minimum wage worker just reading you off
the quote for the item that sounded most close to your description?

> In fact the only odd thing is that there are several 220uF caps which
> are showing as anything between 1000uF and 1200uF on my Peak ESR70
> meter. I've never known caps so far out of tolerance before.

In circuit or out of circuit measurement?

If they are in circult, and they are in parallel with each other in the
circuit, then the measured capacitance will be the sum of the
individual caps. You'd only need five parallel in-spec 220 uF caps.
to show an approx. 1100 uF net value (and 1000-1200uF is "approx. 1100
uF).

[Bertrand Sindri]

The chipset /could/ contain just enough flash to store the WiFi
credentials, with every other 'setting' stored in the cloud.

The bootup sequence would then be:

Boot chipset

Connect to WiFi

Download remaining cloud stored user configuration settings

[Cursitor Doom]

On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 16:34:13 +0000 (UTC), Bertrand Sindri
<bertran...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Cursitor Doom <c...@noreply.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 14:31:52 +0000, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>
>>>> Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Internet only.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, and it remembered my choices perfectly well for many years
>>>> before developing dementia, so I think it's fair to assume there's
>>>> an internal power supply of some sort.
>
>Why is this "safe to assume"?

Fair point. Assumptions are the mother of all fuckups - as I've said
here many times myself!

>
>If it has access to the internet, then it is *not safe to assume* that
>there is an internal power supply of some sort. It is possible that
>*every* setting beyond the local WiFi AP credentials is stored on a
>server somewhere in the cloud. And the WiFi AP credentials could be
>stored in a tiny amount of flash on the main chipset to provide the
>bootstrap necessary to find the rest of the settings on some cloud
>server.

You see this is all like rocket science to me. Never in a million
years would that have occurred to me. If my favourites are stored in
the cloud rather than locally then that's a major breach of trust
Roberts has committed. And confidentiality!

>> It's funny they seemed to know already what the problem was since
>> they quoted me 40 quid to fix it I'm just wondering if they don't do
>> anything to the radio but just renew my subscription or something
>> like that.
>
>Why would you think this vs. the more typical option of the minimum
>wage phone worker having a table of "customer quoted symptoms" vs.
>"quoted repair cost" and the minimum wage worker just reading you off
>the quote for the item that sounded most close to your description?

Look, I'm an old dude. I have no idea what goes on in these places
nowadays. I can only go by my increasingly outdated experience which
is set firmly in the past (25+ years minimum).

>> In fact the only odd thing is that there are several 220uF caps which
>> are showing as anything between 1000uF and 1200uF on my Peak ESR70
>> meter. I've never known caps so far out of tolerance before.
>
>In circuit or out of circuit measurement?

In circuit. And they're not in parallel.

[Cursitor Doom]

On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 15:43:08 +0000, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

I wouldn't have thought so, Andy. It would take infintintely more
write-cycles than I have time to enter data. My settings and
favourites have remained largely unchanged for many years.

[Bertrand Sindri]

That is just a copout.

Realizing that you've not seen 100% of the boards in the housing is not
"thinking like a technician". One does not have to "think like a
technician" to realize that if you have not found what you are
searching for, but have only searched one quarter of the total, that
just maybe the item you seek is in the remaining three quarters.

Although your other posts have opened the very good possibility that
the device has zero local storage beyond WiFi credentials.

[Bertrand Sindri]

Cursitor Doom <c...@noreply.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 16:34:13 +0000 (UTC), Bertrand Sindri
> <bertran...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Cursitor Doom <c...@noreply.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 14:31:52 +0000, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Internet only.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, and it remembered my choices perfectly well for many years
>>>>> before developing dementia, so I think it's fair to assume
>>>>> there's an internal power supply of some sort.
>>

>>If it has access to the internet, then it is *not safe to assume*
>>that there is an internal power supply of some sort. It is possible
>>that *every* setting beyond the local WiFi AP credentials is stored
>>on a server somewhere in the cloud. And the WiFi AP credentials
>>could be stored in a tiny amount of flash on the main chipset to
>>provide the bootstrap necessary to find the rest of the settings on
>>some cloud server.
>
> You see this is all like rocket science to me. Never in a million
> years would that have occurred to me.

This just requires thinking like a "cost-cutting businessman".

Question: How can we reduce the manufacture cost of this product?

Answer: Eliminate some of the components.

Question: How can we do that?

Answer: Since it already has internet access to operate, we could
eliminate the local storage of settings, allowing us to eliminate a
flash chip of X amount, or a battery backup of X amount.

> If my favourites are stored in the cloud rather than locally then
> that's a major breach of trust Roberts has committed. And
> confidentiality!

Indeed, but none of the above means they /did not/ commit this breach
for the purpose of cost cutting.

>>> It's funny they seemed to know already what the problem was since
>>> they quoted me 40 quid to fix it I'm just wondering if they don't
>>> do anything to the radio but just renew my subscription or
>>> something like that.
>>
>>Why would you think this vs. the more typical option of the minimum
>>wage phone worker having a table of "customer quoted symptoms" vs.
>>"quoted repair cost" and the minimum wage worker just reading you off
>>the quote for the item that sounded most close to your description?
>
> Look, I'm an old dude. I have no idea what goes on in these places
> nowadays.

Again, think like a "cost cutting businessman". How do I reduce the
cost of my "support team"? Answer: Hire the cheapest workers possible
and give them a canned script to read from and follow (canned script is
so I don't have to pay them for 'smartness'). The very concept of
telephone support people having a "script" that they strictly follow
has been the subject of jokes and parodies for a good 30+ years.

>>> In fact the only odd thing is that there are several 220uF caps
>>> which are showing as anything between 1000uF and 1200uF on my Peak
>>> ESR70 meter. I've never known caps so far out of tolerance before.
>>
>>In circuit or out of circuit measurement?
>
> In circuit. And they're not in parallel.

And you know this because you have the schematic or have reverse
engineered the schematic from the PCB?

If you have no schematic, you are again 'assuming' they are not in
parallel.

[Bertrand Sindri]

This is another unsafe assumption. It is possible that the power-down
sequence could be:

detect press of soft-power button

write user settings from RAM to flash

power down

Where "write user settings" occurs whether or not you have made any
changes to those settings.

And maybe the price quote you got from their phone support was really
the cost for: "replace the worn out flash chip".

[Andy Burns]

Bertrand Sindri wrote:

> maybe the price quote you got from their phone support was really
> the cost for: "replace the worn out flash chip".

You can nuke its settings

press menu, main menu, system settings, factory reset, yes

also you may have linked the device to an online account via

<http://www.wifiradio-frontier.com>

Might your account have been locked-out?

[Cursitor Doom]

On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 17:35:35 +0000, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

I don't have any such account! Certainly nothing that *I* have created
anyway. Unless this is something Roberts do without telling you.

[Cursitor Doom]

On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 17:06:03 +0000 (UTC), Bertrand Sindri
<bertran...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>This just requires thinking like a "cost-cutting businessman".
>
> Question: How can we reduce the manufacture cost of this product?
>
> Answer: Eliminate some of the components.
>
> Question: How can we do that?
>
> Answer: Since it already has internet access to operate, we could
> eliminate the local storage of settings, allowing us to eliminate a
> flash chip of X amount, or a battery backup of X amount.

... At the cost of setting up some sort of user account on the
internet for the customer, which also requires time and money to
implement. I don't see the saving - if any - is worth the extra
bother.

>> If my favourites are stored in the cloud rather than locally then
>> that's a major breach of trust Roberts has committed. And
>> confidentiality!
>
>Indeed, but none of the above means they /did not/ commit this breach
>for the purpose of cost cutting.
>
>>>> It's funny they seemed to know already what the problem was since
>>>> they quoted me 40 quid to fix it I'm just wondering if they don't
>>>> do anything to the radio but just renew my subscription or
>>>> something like that.
>>>
>>>Why would you think this vs. the more typical option of the minimum
>>>wage phone worker having a table of "customer quoted symptoms" vs.
>>>"quoted repair cost" and the minimum wage worker just reading you off
>>>the quote for the item that sounded most close to your description?
>>
>> Look, I'm an old dude. I have no idea what goes on in these places
>> nowadays.
>
>Again, think like a "cost cutting businessman". How do I reduce the
>cost of my "support team"? Answer: Hire the cheapest workers possible
>and give them a canned script to read from and follow (canned script is
>so I don't have to pay them for 'smartness'). The very concept of
>telephone support people having a "script" that they strictly follow
>has been the subject of jokes and parodies for a good 30+ years.

Firstly, I don't believe it's feasible to 'project' (as it's called)
one's own thoughts and emotions over others. You can't get inside
other people's minds in this way whatever the subject matter may be.
And this wasn't some "support team" lacky but rather email replies
from someone who clearly understood the issue even though they were
only prepared to offer a solution which would benefit the company to
the tune of 40 quid.

>
>>>> In fact the only odd thing is that there are several 220uF caps
>>>> which are showing as anything between 1000uF and 1200uF on my Peak
>>>> ESR70 meter. I've never known caps so far out of tolerance before.
>>>
>>>In circuit or out of circuit measurement?
>>
>> In circuit. And they're not in parallel.
>
>And you know this because you have the schematic or have reverse
>engineered the schematic from the PCB?
>
>If you have no schematic, you are again 'assuming' they are not in
>parallel.

But YOU are also *assuming* that *I* am assuming that. The fact that I
am doesn't change the fact that you're still making an assumption
here. It just happens to be correct on this occasion.

[Bernie]

On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 15:34:07 +0000
Cursitor Doom <c...@noreply.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 14:31:52 +0000, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >Cursitor Doom wrote:
> >
> >> Adrian Caspersz wrote:
> >>
> >>> Internet only.
> >>
> >> Yes, and it remembered my choices perfectly well for many years
> >> before developing dementia, so I think it's fair to assume there's
> >> an internal power supply of some sort.
> >
> >It might send its unique ID to the cloud, which remembers your
> >favourites and tells the "radio" every time it boots?
> >
> >Does it manage to remember your WiFi credentials every time you turn
> >it on? Try a factory reset if it has one buried in the menus.
> >
> >Maybe the "favourites" part of the cloud has gone away? Or is
> >geo-restricted?
>
> Well, if they've pulled some sort of stunt like that then it's the
> last time I'll ever buy a Roberts radio. It's funny they seemed to
> know already what the problem was since they quoted me 40 quid to fix
> it I'm just wondering if they don't do anything to the radio but just
> renew my subscription or something like that.

https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/2337021/roberts-internet-radio-no-access-to-favourites

[Bertrand Sindri]

No one is saying *you* created anything.

All that is needed for the radio to save all your user settings in "the
cloud" [1] is for each radio to have a unique serial number, and for the
maker to run a very cheap server on the 'net to receive a request from
the radio and to either return (for a read request) or save (for a
write request) the user settings in association with that serial
number.

Given that it has a WiFi chipset, it already has a unique serial
number, that being the MAC address of the WiFi chip on the board.

So it is very possible for the radio to use a cloud server to store
your settings. Whether it in fact does so is yet undetermined. But
everything necessary on the radio hardware side to do so is already
present. A WiFi chipset (for internet access), a unique serial (the
WiFi chipset MAC address), and a CPU (given a WiFi chipset, it likely
also contains an embedded CPU as well).



[1] yes, this is not secure, because if you learn someone's radio's MAC
address, you could read/write their settings.

[Adrian Caspersz]

Ok, I had a look at the manual. Like my earlier model, it's a
ridiculously complicated book more suited to a computer product than an
entertainment gadget.

http://www.aeldownloads.com/robertsradio/userguides/STREAM105%20ISSUE.1.pdf

There is also a troubleshooting guide

http://www.aeldownloads.com/robertsradio/TSguides/STREAM%20105%20TS.ISSUE.1.pdf.


In the UK, Roberts was a British brand of radio manaufacturer that
catered mostly to the middle class purchaser, and I can hardly see some
of those that have remaining memories of old, having some ability left
to waddle through that nonsense.

However, I had a waddle. Page 64 of the wordy user manual.

"You should not attempt to update your radio unless it is recommended to
you by Roberts Customer
Services. Updating the software may remove all network settings, radio
station presets and alarm settings
from your radio"

So, station presets _are_ stored in flash memory on the device. Have
they been lost in a recent software update?

Suggest, (if it still works) registering an account (Page 30) and
storing favourites there.

Mr Doom. You won't find a battery or a cap. Give up.

--
Adrian C

[Cursitor Doom]

On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 21:55:28 +0000, Adrian Caspersz
<em...@here.invalid> wrote:

>On 10/01/2021 20:36, Bertrand Sindri wrote:
>> Cursitor Doom <c...@noreply.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 17:35:35 +0000, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Might your account have been locked-out?
>>>
>>> I don't have any such account! Certainly nothing that *I* have
>>> created anyway. Unless this is something Roberts do without telling
>>> you.
>>
>> No one is saying *you* created anything.
>>
>> All that is needed for the radio to save all your user settings in "the
>> cloud" [1] is for each radio to have a unique serial number, and for the
>> maker to run a very cheap server on the 'net to receive a request from
>> the radio and to either return (for a read request) or save (for a
>> write request) the user settings in association with that serial
>> number.

I see. Well, I never wanted *anything* to do with 'the cloud' - ever.
So if that had been the case I'd have had strong words with Roberts!

Many thanks indeed for that summary, Adrian; much appreciated.
I have never - knowingly - ever done any updates at all since I bought
the thing. I bought Roberts because I've had their broadcast recievers
in the past and been very happy with them in all respects. They were a
bit pricey (though not as much as a Hacker) but the build and sound
quality was very good. Their internet radios, OTOH, have none of that
reassuringly solid feel about them.
I think I'll reassemble it and have a think about how to proceed from
there tomorrow....

[Bertrand Sindri]

Cursitor Doom <c...@noreply.com> wrote:
> I bought Roberts because I've had their broadcast recievers in the
> past and been very happy with them in all respects. They were a bit
> pricey (though not as much as a Hacker) but the build and sound
> quality was very good. Their internet radios, OTOH, have none of
> that reassuringly solid feel about them.

It could be possible that "Roberts" (the brand name) has gone the way
of a lot of the traditional US "brand names" of yesteryear (Honeywell,
Westinghouse, etc.).

They (the US brands, I have no idea re. Roberts) are nothing more than
"Names" owned by some rent-seeking corporation who will sell the right
to brand anything as "Honeywell" or "Westinghouse" for the right price.

What you mention re. the massive reduction in build quality is exactly
what happened to the products that were "branded" as "Honeywell" or
"Westinghouse" (or others) once they became a "brand name for hire".
The product build quality plummeted.

[Cursitor Doom]

Exactly. They sold out to get rich (or should I say *even* richer).

[Bertrand Sindri]

In some instances, it was bankruptcy liquidations that resulted in a
rent-seeker buying the "brand name" from the bankrupcy proceedings (to
gain the "brand recognition" for their junk until enough people learn
the "new X" brand is just junk).

So the original company owners never got rich, and a rent-seeker is
just taking advantage of the "brand recognition" that name had built up
over the years to make a quick buck for as long as they can squeeze
blood from the corpse.

[Cursitor Doom]

That certainly has the ring of truth about it; many thanks.

[Bob F]

Perhaps because similar leads of each cap are not connected together?