Aldi £59 petrol generator and television

[D. T. Green]

On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we have
heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is running
very roughly, and is really noisy.

Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for connecting to
televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.

Has anybody any experience with one of these very cheap generators ? (Only
�59 ).

Also saying they are not suitable for sensitive electronic equipment; would
that just be the manufacturers covering themselves? Would buying something
like a *surge- protector* make it possible to use the generator with a
portable television?

[Sylvia Else]

The generator probably has poor stability in both voltage and frequency.
Equipment that's senstitive to those may indeed break.

Sylvia.

[Gareth Magennis]

"D. T. Green" <gre...@mail.invalid> wrote in message
news:jtjhh2$doc$1...@dont-email.me...

Blimey, if even the manufacturer is telling you its crap, it must be REALLY
crap.

No way I'd connect one to anything of mine.



Gareth.

[Martin Brown]

On 11/07/2012 10:37, D. T. Green wrote:
> On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we have
> heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is running
> very roughly, and is really noisy.
>
> Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for connecting to
> televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.

Likely it is not just acoustically noisy but electronically noisy too
and the ignition system radio emissions will cause snow on a portable
TV. It might be so rough and ready electrically either voltage or
frequency wise that it could fail or wreck some old sets completely. I'd
expect most modern switched mode PSUs to cope with almost anything but
then you are taking a risk since the maker says it is unsuitable.

>
> Has anybody any experience with one of these very cheap generators ? (Only
> �59 ).
>
> Also saying they are not suitable for sensitive electronic equipment; would
> that just be the manufacturers covering themselves? Would buying something
> like a *surge- protector* make it possible to use the generator with a
> portable television?

I suspect your problem will be mainly electrical interference. Charging
up a battery to use with your TV would get around this and be quieter.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[N_Cook]

D. T. Green <gre...@mail.invalid> wrote in message
news:jtjhh2$doc$1...@dont-email.me...

If I was using one I'd wire in permanently a baseload 100W mains bulb
(assuming you are allowed to start up with a pre-existing load) . If the
lamp flickers /wavers then no use with a TV but if a constant light output
I'd try only a sacrificial old TV with an old set-top box , if the picture
rolls from lack of frequency control then at least I tried.

[The Other Mike]

After looking at the subject I thought, we've had gas powered fridges,
now a petrol powered telly...


--

[David WE Roberts]

"D. T. Green" <gre...@mail.invalid> wrote in message
news:jtjhh2$doc$1...@dont-email.me...

Some of the extra money paind for more expensive generators goes towards the
extra electronics which ensure a stable a/c output similar to mains current.
This is generaly described as an inverter system

Believe the instructions.
It is not suitable.

There are warnings against these very cheap generators on caravan and mobile
home discussion fora, as they can damage the internal electrics of the more
sophisticated systems.

Cheers

Dave R
--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <jtjhh2$doc$1...@dont-email.me>,

D. T. Green <gre...@mail.invalid> wrote:
> Also saying they are not suitable for sensitive electronic equipment;
> would that just be the manufacturers covering themselves? Would buying
> something like a *surge- protector* make it possible to use the
> generator with a portable television?

Sounds like you want it to use on a camp site, etc. You will not be
popular.

--
*What happens when none of your bees wax? *

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Owain]

On Jul 11, 1:12 pm, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
> Sounds like you want it to use on a camp site, etc. You will not be
> popular.

Surely that depends on the choice of programme?

It might be extremely popular if it's showing the women's beach
volleyball ;-)

Owain

[Jasen Betts]

On 2012-07-11, D. T. Green <gre...@mail.invalid> wrote:
> On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we have
> heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is running
> very roughly, and is really noisy.

2 stroke is typically noisy, and often smoky, it's just the way they
work

> Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for connecting to
> televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.

CRT televisions need well regulated line frequency, as do clocks and
some other "sensitive equipment"

> Also saying they are not suitable for sensitive electronic equipment; would
> that just be the manufacturers covering themselves? Would buying something
> like a *surge- protector* make it possible to use the generator with a
> portable television?

an AVR is more likely to help if there's voltage problems...

--
⚂⚃ 100% natural

--- Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net/ - Complaints to ne...@netfront.net ---

[F Murtz]

Jasen Betts wrote:
> On 2012-07-11, D. T. Green<gre...@mail.invalid> wrote:
>> On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we have
>> heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is running
>> very roughly, and is really noisy.
>
> 2 stroke is typically noisy, and often smoky, it's just the way they
> work
>
>> Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for connecting to
>> televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.
>
> CRT televisions need well regulated line frequency, as do clocks and
> some other "sensitive equipment"
>
>> Also saying they are not suitable for sensitive electronic equipment; would
>> that just be the manufacturers covering themselves? Would buying something
>> like a *surge- protector* make it possible to use the generator with a
>> portable television?
>
> an AVR is more likely to help if there's voltage problems...
>

If you want to run tv,a lot of small modern tvs run on 12v dc so use
your generator to charge a car battery and run the tv off that.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:37:31 +0100, "D. T. Green"
<gre...@mail.invalid> wrote:

>On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we have
>heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is running
>very roughly, and is really noisy.

All 2 stroke engines are noisy. 4 stroke engines are much quieter.
Running "rough" could mean no regulation. This generator is a piece
of junk.

>Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for connecting to
>televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.

That's because the voltage and frequency output is probably not
regulated. Light bulbs, heaters, and resistive loads might survive.
Anything electronic or that uses a motor, probably won't.

>Has anybody any experience with one of these very cheap generators ? (Only
>�59 ).

No experience. I don't need to stick my hand in the fire to know that
it's hot.

>Also saying they are not suitable for sensitive electronic equipment; would
>that just be the manufacturers covering themselves?

Yep. Unsuitable for any purpose other than making lots of noise.

>Would buying something
>like a *surge- protector* make it possible to use the generator with a
>portable television?

No. If the generator goes into over voltage, even for a few fractions
of second, the MOV (metal oxide varistors) in the "surge protector"
will explode, catch fire, and eventually blow a fuse. Surge
protectors also don't do anything for changes in frequency.

Look into various "inverter generator" offerings. They're quiet,
efficient, low RFI, and have a fairly clean and regulated output.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Jeff Liebermann]

I don't think the program matters much if the viewers need a gas mask
and ear plugs in order to watch the TV. Last time I checked, many
small LCD TV's run nicely on 12V battery power. No need for
generator. For example:
<http://www.capitalstores.co.uk/12v-tv>

I guess going camping with a TV is ok, as long as one leaves the
screaming kids, barking dogs, ATV's, motorcycles, and boom box at
home.

I'm impressed that the question was cross posted to a repair
newsgroup. That suggests that the generator or the TV will soon
require some manner of repair. Planning ahead is a good thing.

[Arfa Daily]

"Martin Brown" <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:qEcLr.48899$iI7....@newsfe03.iad...

> On 11/07/2012 10:37, D. T. Green wrote:
>> On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we
>> have
>> heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is running
>> very roughly, and is really noisy.
>>
>> Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for connecting
>> to
>> televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.
>
> Likely it is not just acoustically noisy but electronically noisy too and
> the ignition system radio emissions will cause snow on a portable TV. It
> might be so rough and ready electrically either voltage or frequency wise
> that it could fail or wreck some old sets completely. I'd expect most
> modern switched mode PSUs to cope with almost anything but then you are
> taking a risk since the maker says it is unsuitable.

I would have said the exact opposite of that. Linear supplies with a nice
big chunk of L in the way, are pretty much unconcerned about such nasties as
spikes, whereas switchers will fail if you just look at them wrongly on a
day with a Y in it ...

However, that said, I would agree with everyone else that using this with
modern electronic equipment would not be a good idea. OK to run a few lights
(but not CFLs or electronically ballasted linear flourescents), and maybe
power tools, which is probably what Aldi had in mind for it. I've actually
found Aldi to be pretty honest in this respect. It's cheap, and they know
it, hence the warnings.

Arfa

[The Natural Philosopher]

Arfa Daily wrote:
>
>
> "Martin Brown" <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:qEcLr.48899$iI7....@newsfe03.iad...
>> On 11/07/2012 10:37, D. T. Green wrote:
>>> On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we
>>> have
>>> heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is running
>>> very roughly, and is really noisy.
>>>
>>> Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for
>>> connecting to
>>> televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.
>>
>> Likely it is not just acoustically noisy but electronically noisy too
>> and the ignition system radio emissions will cause snow on a portable
>> TV. It might be so rough and ready electrically either voltage or
>> frequency wise that it could fail or wreck some old sets completely.
>> I'd expect most modern switched mode PSUs to cope with almost anything
>> but then you are taking a risk since the maker says it is unsuitable.
>
>
>
> I would have said the exact opposite of that. Linear supplies with a
> nice big chunk of L in the way, are pretty much unconcerned about such
> nasties as spikes, whereas switchers will fail if you just look at them
> wrongly on a day with a Y in it ...
>

No. they just rectify teh peaks.

But iron transformers dont like odd waveforms.

Having said that, ive used a genny to power a laptop for watching TV on
in a camper.

> However, that said, I would agree with everyone else that using this
> with modern electronic equipment would not be a good idea. OK to run a
> few lights (but not CFLs or electronically ballasted linear
> flourescents), and maybe power tools, which is probably what Aldi had in
> mind for it. I've actually found Aldi to be pretty honest in this
> respect. It's cheap, and they know it, hence the warnings.
>
> Arfa
>
>

--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

[Jules Richardson]

On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 07:43:49 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> All 2 stroke engines are noisy.

Although the bigger they are, the quieter they seem to be for their size.

[Bob Engelhardt]

The Other Mike wrote:
> After looking at the subject I thought, we've had gas powered fridges,
> now a petrol powered telly...

Eh ... after looking at the subject I thought it was about a device that
would generate petrol, maybe it was seen on TV.

[Rod Speed]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote

> D. T. Green <gre...@mail.invalid> wrote

>> On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from
>> Aldi, we have heard from someone who says that he has got
>> one; and that his is running very roughly, and is really noisy.

> All 2 stroke engines are noisy. 4 stroke engines are much quieter.
> Running "rough" could mean no regulation.

> This generator is a piece of junk.

Not necessarily, it may be quite adequate.

>>Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for connecting
>>to
>>televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.

> That's because the voltage and frequency output is probably not regulated.

Yes.

> Light bulbs, heaters, and resistive loads might survive.

The last two certainly will.

> Anything electronic or that uses a motor, probably won't.

That's just plain wrong if it has modern switch mode power supply.

Plenty of those are very happy to operate over a range of 80-260V and
couldn't care less about the frequency because they rectify the mains.

>> Has anybody any experience with one of these very cheap generators ?
>> (Only �59 ).

> No experience.

That's obvious.

> I don't need to stick my hand in the fire to know that it's hot.

But you don't understand about modern switch mode power supplys.

>> Also saying they are not suitable for sensitive electronic equipment;
>> would that just be the manufacturers covering themselves?

> Yep. Unsuitable for any purpose other than making lots of noise.

Wrong.

>> Would buying something like a *surge- protector* make
>> it possible to use the generator with a portable television?

> No. If the generator goes into over voltage, even for a few fractions
> of second, the MOV (metal oxide varistors) in the "surge protector"
> will explode, catch fire, and eventually blow a fuse. Surge
> protectors also don't do anything for changes in frequency.

If the TV has a switch mode power supply, it wont care about the frequency.

[Rod Speed]

"Arfa Daily" <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:AbhLr.750174$4v3.3...@fx08.am4...

>
>
> "Martin Brown" <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:qEcLr.48899$iI7....@newsfe03.iad...
>> On 11/07/2012 10:37, D. T. Green wrote:
>>> On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we
>>> have
>>> heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is running
>>> very roughly, and is really noisy.
>>>
>>> Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for
>>> connecting to
>>> televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.
>>
>> Likely it is not just acoustically noisy but electronically noisy too and
>> the ignition system radio emissions will cause snow on a portable TV. It
>> might be so rough and ready electrically either voltage or frequency wise
>> that it could fail or wreck some old sets completely. I'd expect most
>> modern switched mode PSUs to cope with almost anything but then you are
>> taking a risk since the maker says it is unsuitable.
>
>
>
> I would have said the exact opposite of that. Linear supplies with a nice
> big chunk of L in the way, are pretty much unconcerned about such nasties
> as spikes, whereas switchers will fail if you just look at them wrongly on
> a day with a Y in it ...

Like hell they do.

> However, that said, I would agree with everyone else that using this with
> modern electronic equipment would not be a good idea.

That's just plain wrong with modern switch mode power supplys.

> OK to run a few lights (but not CFLs or electronically ballasted linear
> flourescents), and maybe power tools, which is probably what Aldi had in
> mind for it. I've actually found Aldi to be pretty honest in this respect.
> It's cheap, and they know it, hence the warnings.

But it may well be fine if the device has a switch mode power
supply that's happy with an input voltage of 80-26V and couldn't
care less about the frequency because it rectifys the mains.

[gregz]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <jtjhh2$doc$1...@dont-email.me>,
> D. T. Green <gre...@mail.invalid> wrote:
>> Also saying they are not suitable for sensitive electronic equipment;
>> would that just be the manufacturers covering themselves? Would buying
>> something like a *surge- protector* make it possible to use the
>> generator with a portable television?
>
> Sounds like you want it to use on a camp site, etc. You will not be
> popular.

I have a similar generator, and I think there is labeling caution in using
electronics. The little generator is very quiet with no load. With load
it's a lot louder. I do have a big Aldi generator of 5kw continuous. It's
pretty quiet, but does not get much louder with load. I understand there
about 4 companies in china making generators, for Honda, yamaha, etc. The
bigger generators all have the same look, but the smaller ones are
different. My $350 dollar generator looks like a $2000 yamaha. After I paid
$350 , they went to $300, which is at least $200 cheaper than anything of
comparable type, including harbor freight.

Greg

[Arfa Daily]

"The Natural Philosopher" <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:jtk772$396$2...@news.albasani.net...

> Arfa Daily wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Martin Brown" <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:qEcLr.48899$iI7....@newsfe03.iad...
>>> On 11/07/2012 10:37, D. T. Green wrote:
>>>> On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we
>>>> have
>>>> heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is
>>>> running
>>>> very roughly, and is really noisy.
>>>>
>>>> Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for
>>>> connecting to
>>>> televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.
>>>
>>> Likely it is not just acoustically noisy but electronically noisy too
>>> and the ignition system radio emissions will cause snow on a portable
>>> TV. It might be so rough and ready electrically either voltage or
>>> frequency wise that it could fail or wreck some old sets completely. I'd
>>> expect most modern switched mode PSUs to cope with almost anything but
>>> then you are taking a risk since the maker says it is unsuitable.
>>
>>
>>
>> I would have said the exact opposite of that. Linear supplies with a nice
>> big chunk of L in the way, are pretty much unconcerned about such nasties
>> as spikes, whereas switchers will fail if you just look at them wrongly
>> on a day with a Y in it ...
>>
>
> No. they just rectify teh peaks.

Yes. In my experience into bloody great voltages that destroy the switching
FETs ...

>
> But iron transformers dont like odd waveforms.

Agreed, but the waveform has got to be very odd before nasties like core
saturation start taking place. OTOH, transient crap tends to just be slugged
by the considerable L of the primary winding. The fundamental waveform of
this generator is still likely to be a pretty fair sine wave, irrespective
of its voltage and frequency stability, and how much spiky garbage is
floating on the top. Of far greater concern with iron cored trannies, is
their response to being hung on the end of a non sinusoidal inverter

[Arfa Daily]

"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a668p2...@mid.individual.net...

I repair hundreds of the things, and irrespective of the topology of any
individual design, most work by the skin of their teeth. Left alone, in
general, today's generation are fairly reliable, but in my experience,
subject them to the slightest abuse, and they fail - often catastrophically

Arfa

[Rod Speed]

Arfa Daily <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> Arfa Daily <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote

>>> Martin Brown <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote

>>>> D. T. Green wrote

>>>>> On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we
>>>>> have heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is
>>>>> running very roughly, and is really noisy.

>>>>> Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for
>>>>> connecting to televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.

>>>> Likely it is not just acoustically noisy but electronically noisy too
>>>> and the ignition system radio emissions will cause snow on a portable
>>>> TV. It might be so rough and ready electrically either voltage or
>>>> frequency wise that it could fail or wreck some old sets completely.
>>>> I'd expect most modern switched mode PSUs to cope with almost anything
>>>> but then you are taking a risk since the maker says it is unsuitable.

>>> I would have said the exact opposite of that. Linear supplies with a
>>> nice big chunk of L in the way, are pretty much unconcerned about such
>>> nasties as spikes, whereas switchers will fail if you just look at them
>>> wrongly on a day with a Y in it ...

>> Like hell they do.

>>> However, that said, I would agree with everyone else that using this
>>> with modern electronic equipment would not be a good idea.

>> That's just plain wrong with modern switch mode power supplys.

> I repair hundreds of the things,

But clearly don't understand the basics with well designed switch mode power
supplys.

> and irrespective of the topology of any individual design, most work by
> the skin of their teeth.

That's just plain wrong.

> Left alone, in general, today's generation are fairly reliable, but in my
> experience, subject them to the slightest abuse, and they fail - often
> catastrophically

Switch mode power supplys, particularly the ones designed
to work on a voltage range of 80-260V don't, and they
don't give a damn about the frequency of the mains
from a generator, because they rectify the mains.

[Arfa Daily]

"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:a66lru...@mid.individual.net...

Oh, how silly of me not to know that ...


Where did I ever dispute that such designs don't care about frequency or
input voltage ? I merely stated that if you abuse them, they have a
predisposition towards catastrophic failure - and I base that on many years
of repairing the things every week for a living. Even if they do have a PFC
front end, that in itself is just another SMPS, and the control IC and
switching FET are just as prone to failure as in any other design.

Arfa

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 09:21:51 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
<arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>I merely stated that if you abuse them, they have a

>predisposition towards catastrophic failure (...)

Switchers fail gracefully. The output voltage goes to zero.
Analog power supplies are not so graceful when they fail. The output
usually goes to the maximum of whatever the unregulated part of the
power supply will deliver, which destroys everything connected to it.
I like switchers.

[Phil Allison]

"Jeff Liebermann"

> Switchers fail gracefully. The output voltage goes to zero.

** Only sometimes, in many SMPS designs the output goes high.

If that is on a 5V rail, it destroys most of the ICs.

Very few have a "crowbar" to stop it .

> Analog power supplies are not so graceful when they fail.

** Unregulated ones do no such thing.

> The output
> usually goes to the maximum of whatever the unregulated part of the
> power supply will deliver, which destroys everything connected to it.

** Just like SMPS do then, but far less commonly.


> I like switchers.

** But you are an utter ass.



.... Phil

[Rod Speed]

But clearly can't work out for yourself that
they will work fine on that generator.

> Where did I ever dispute that such designs don't care about frequency or
> input voltage ? I merely stated that if you abuse them, they have a
> predisposition towards catastrophic failure

And using one of those on that generator doesn't qualify.

> - and I base that on many years of repairing the things every week for a
> living.

But clearly can't work out for yourself that
they will work fine on that generator.

> Even if they do have a PFC front end, that in itself is just another SMPS,
> and the control IC and switching FET are just as prone to failure as in
> any other design.

Wrong when the only downside of that generator is that
it may well not control the voltage and frequency of what
it generates very accurately. The SMPS won't give a damn.

[Rod Speed]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote

> Arfa Daily <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote

>> I merely stated that if you abuse them, they have
>> a predisposition towards catastrophic failure (...)

> Switchers fail gracefully. The output voltage goes to zero.

Not always.

> Analog power supplies are not so graceful when they fail.
> The output usually goes to the maximum of whatever the
> unregulated part of the power supply will deliver,

Yes.

> which destroys everything connected to it.

Not necessarily.

> I like switchers.

Me too, particularly when used on that sort of cheap generator.

[Gareth Magennis]

"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:a67l64...@mid.individual.net...

> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote
>> Arfa Daily <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote
>
>>> I merely stated that if you abuse them, they have a predisposition
>>> towards catastrophic failure (...)
>
>> Switchers fail gracefully. The output voltage goes to zero.
>
> Not always.
>> Analog power supplies are not so graceful when they fail. The output
>> usually goes to the maximum of whatever the unregulated part of the power
>> supply will deliver,
>
> Yes.

No.

>> which destroys everything connected to it.
>

Both of these are an extraordinarily rare ocurrence in the real world.



Gareth.

.

[Arfa Daily]

>
> Wrong when the only downside of that generator is that
> it may well not control the voltage and frequency of what
> it generates very accurately. The SMPS won't give a damn.

You don't know that. For all you know, the output might be covered in crap
like ignition noise. In which case, a lot of switchers will fail sooner or
later. I don't know what your background is - I've never seen you on S.E.R.
before so I guess you're here as a result of the cross-posting. For all I
know, you might be the best SMPS designer in the world, and your efforts
might be bomb-proof. But for every one of you, there are a thousand Chinese
sticking their shit-street designs in everything from light bulbs to vacuum
cleaners. I see this crap every day (as well as some good ones) and many of
the designs do, as I said, work by the skin of their teeth. If you throw
mains at them that's covered in spikes and other garbage, they *will* fail.
It's not at all rare to see items such as TV sets that have been used on the
end of cheap inverters and generators, with either blown power supplies, or
corrupted EEPROMs.

I would also point out that many cheap Chinese designs without a PFC front
end rated to 260 volts AC, have a single main filter cap rated at 400 v.
Even with mains at the high end of 'normal', that doesn't allow a lot of
overhead. If the output of this generator is poorly regulated, the input
voltage to the power supply could easily take this cap close to its limits.
In which case such a supply may well 'give a damn'.

So to the O.P., if you want to believe this guy and ignore Aldi's warning,
go right ahead. You might get away with it if if the TV or whatever has one
of Rod's designs of PSU in it. Otherwise you may well not ...

Arfa

[Jim Yanik]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in
news:0b4rv7ldi6f6o6bqb...@4ax.com:

> On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 05:19:21 -0700 (PDT), Owain
><spuorg...@gowanhill.com> wrote:
>
>>On Jul 11, 1:12 pm, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>>> Sounds like you want it to use on a camp site, etc. You will not be
>>> popular.
>
>>Surely that depends on the choice of programme?
>>It might be extremely popular if it's showing the women's beach
>>volleyball ;-)
>
> I don't think the program matters much if the viewers need a gas mask
> and ear plugs in order to watch the TV. Last time I checked, many
> small LCD TV's run nicely on 12V battery power. No need for
> generator. For example:
><http://www.capitalstores.co.uk/12v-tv>
>
> I guess going camping with a TV is ok, as long as one leaves the
> screaming kids, barking dogs, ATV's, motorcycles, and boom box at
> home.

in today's digital ATSC TV world(USA),reception may not be possible out in
the boonies. better to buy a portable DVD player with LCD screen.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

[JW]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 15:34:33 +0100 "Arfa Daily" <arfa....@ntlworld.com>
wrote in Message id: <%fBLr.751827$N53.5...@fx20.am4>:

>I've never seen you on S.E.R.
>before so I guess you're here as a result of the cross-posting. For all I
>know, you might be the best SMPS designer in the world, and your efforts
>might be bomb-proof.

Not likely. See
http://www.wirelessforums.org/aus-comms-mobile/rod-speed-faq-28790.html

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:57:00 +1000, "Phil Allison" <phi...@tpg.com.au>
wrote:

>"Jeff Liebermann"
>> Switchers fail gracefully. The output voltage goes to zero.
>
>** Only sometimes, in many SMPS designs the output goes high.

Yeah sorta. I could probably contrive a design that would do that.
However, I haven't seen any like that since the days of the original
Compaq portable, which did have such a PS. I've seen a fair number of
computah power supplies in the last 30+ years. Very few that I've
seen fails to full output voltage.

However, there are exceptions:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/atx-blown.jpg>
I think this one failed to full output voltage. It was in a no name
PC. No evidence of lighting or power mains problems. It simply blew
up. Proof positive that it is possible to design a lousy switcher.

> If that is on a 5V rail, it destroys most of the ICs.

Yep. Oddly, I haven't seen many such motherboards with all the IC's
blown. Plenty of other failure modes, but no volcanic eruptions in
the middle of chips. That's what full power over-voltage does. It
blows out a small piece of the epoxy-B package.

> Very few have a "crowbar" to stop it .

None of the schematics that I've seen have such a feature. Most of
them rely on a "power good" circuit inside the regulator chip to
provide the necessary protection. That's not as good as an external
crowbar, but then, I don't think any PC power supply manufacturers are
going to add 30Amp SCR's for protection.

ATX power supply specification.
<http://www.formfactors.org/developer%5Cspecs%5CATX_ATX12V_PS_1_1.pdf>
See Section 3.4 for the multitude of output protection circuitry
required. Output faults are suppose to shutdown and latch.

>> Analog power supplies are not so graceful when they fail.
>
>** Unregulated ones do no such thing.

True, but nobody runs unregulated power supplies these days. By
analog, I meant linear power supplies with analog (non-switching mode)
regulators.

In ham radio, the RF noise produced by switchers makes weak signal
work rather difficult. Most ham radio power supplies use fairly
simple linear power supply designs. The leading company is Astron:
<http://www.astroncorp.com>
Schematics can be found at:
<http://www.repeater-builder.com/astron/astron-index.html>
Note that *ALL* of the linear power supplies have an SCR crowbar
across the output. The slightest hint of overvoltage, and it will
shut down and latch the regulator. This is rather irritating when the
power supply is located at a mountain top radio site. Various reset
circuits have been contrived. For example:
<http://www.repeater-builder.com/astron/astron-ovpr-12.html>

I don't know which flavor will best survive a crappy generator. I've
seen switchers run on a much wider range of voltages and fequencies
than linear power supplies. However, during ham radio Field Day, it
seems that the switchers are the ones that are most susceptible to
protective shutdown from generator spikes and transcients. Most of
the power supplies running during last months Field Day were linear,
to keep the RFI down, except for the switchers used to charge the
laptop batteries.

>> The output
>> usually goes to the maximum of whatever the unregulated part of the
>> power supply will deliver, which destroys everything connected to it.
>
>** Just like SMPS do then, but far less commonly.

Repeating again, I don't see any evidence of an overvoltage problem in
the multitude of switchers that cross my bench.

>> I like switchers.
>
>** But you are an utter ass.

Of course. But I'm still right.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 09:39:16 -0500, Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov>
wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in
>news:0b4rv7ldi6f6o6bqb...@4ax.com:

>> I guess going camping with a TV is ok, as long as one leaves the
>> screaming kids, barking dogs, ATV's, motorcycles, and boom box at
>> home.

>in today's digital ATSC TV world(USA),reception may not be possible out in
>the boonies. better to buy a portable DVD player with LCD screen.

You're behind the times a little. These daze, campers have satellite
receivers and dishes. OTA TV reception in the middle of nowhere tends
to be lousy.

The main purpose of the generator is not to run the TV. It's to keep
the 12V fridge alive. The generator usually has a 12v charger output,
which keeps the battery up, which runs the 12v fridge. For those with
really cheap generators, add an external battery charger. Few campers
have 12v chargers for their laptops, so there's another reason to run
the generator. Solar panels as chargers are also common, but are
rarely large enough to replace a generator.

It's been a very long time since I've gone tent camping. When I last
did that, we went past a "wilderness" trailer camp, which is
distinguished from a regular trailer camp site by the lack of hookups.
We could hear the multiple generators running for miles away. As we
approached the trailer camp site, we could hear a cacophany of full
blast television audio from some campers. We begged some supplies,
loaded up with drinkable water, and got as far away from that
nightmare as possible, which was not a trivial exercise in the dark.

Leave the generator and TV at home.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 01:28:30 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 09:21:51 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
><arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>I merely stated that if you abuse them, they have a
>>predisposition towards catastrophic failure (...)
>
>Switchers fail gracefully. The output voltage goes to zero.

Or to Vin.

>Analog power supplies are not so graceful when they fail. The output
>usually goes to the maximum of whatever the unregulated part of the
>power supply will deliver, which destroys everything connected to it.

So do boost regulators, not that it's necessarily a bad thing.

>I like switchers.

I have no preference. There is rarely a choice (I guess if there is it's an
automatic "choice" for the linear - so no real choice).

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> It's been a very long time since I've gone tent camping.

The last time I slept in a 'tent' was in the early '70s in Alaska.
Cold weather survival training. You were issued a 'tent half' (basicly,
a small canvas tarp) , sleeping bag & folding shovel. You had to find a
suitable spot to anchor the 'tent half' where the wild wouldn't blow in
the opening, then bury all butthe entrance in snow for insulation. The
temperature was below -20F during the day, and we were there for three
days. Have you ever built a fire with frozen wood, or cut down small,
ice covered trees without an axe?

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 12:46:03 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>The last time I slept in a 'tent' was in the early '70s in Alaska.
>Cold weather survival training.

Camping these days for me is done in 2-3 star hotels (i.e. Motel 6). I
can't afford 5 star.

I did something like that, except in the desert. I wasn't paying
attention, forgot to do a few things, and ended up dehydrated, with a
major sunburn, and infested with sand fleas.

>Have you ever built a fire with frozen wood, or cut down small,
>ice covered trees without an axe?

Not frozen, but certainly wet wood. I've been heating my house during
the winter with firewood for 39 years. At one point, I was cursed
with some soaking wet green firewood. Even mixed with dry wood it
didn't burn very well. It was better than freezing, so I eventually
learned how to start a fire with the stuff with a propane torch. I
also used an axe, hatchet, chain saw, bow saw, and table saw to
prepare the logs and kindling.

I've converted small trees into kindling by driving over them with a
bulldozer, but I suspect that's not what you were doing. How did you
prepare firewood from iced over trees? Cable saw? Swiss army knife?
Explosives? I would have just scrounged for dead fall branches on the
ground and left the wet live trees alone.

[Jim Yanik]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in

news:d2rtv7p2m3r8d33g2...@4ax.com:

> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 09:39:16 -0500, Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov>
> wrote:
>
>>Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in
>>news:0b4rv7ldi6f6o6bqb...@4ax.com:
>>> I guess going camping with a TV is ok, as long as one leaves the
>>> screaming kids, barking dogs, ATV's, motorcycles, and boom box at
>>> home.
>
>>in today's digital ATSC TV world(USA),reception may not be possible
>>out in the boonies. better to buy a portable DVD player with LCD
>>screen.
>
> You're behind the times a little. These daze, campers have satellite
> receivers and dishes. OTA TV reception in the middle of nowhere tends
> to be lousy.

yeah,I've seen RVs with satellite dishes...

>
> The main purpose of the generator is not to run the TV. It's to keep
> the 12V fridge alive. The generator usually has a 12v charger output,
> which keeps the battery up, which runs the 12v fridge. For those with
> really cheap generators, add an external battery charger. Few campers
> have 12v chargers for their laptops, so there's another reason to run
> the generator. Solar panels as chargers are also common, but are
> rarely large enough to replace a generator.
>
> It's been a very long time since I've gone tent camping. When I last
> did that, we went past a "wilderness" trailer camp, which is
> distinguished from a regular trailer camp site by the lack of hookups.
> We could hear the multiple generators running for miles away. As we
> approached the trailer camp site, we could hear a cacophany of full
> blast television audio from some campers. We begged some supplies,
> loaded up with drinkable water, and got as far away from that
> nightmare as possible, which was not a trivial exercise in the dark.
>
> Leave the generator and TV at home.
>

will an 800 WATT generator keep a fridge going?
an 800 watt generator might not run the TV and the satellite
receiver[humor]....considering that 800 watts is maximum output(surge?),and
you can realistically expect only 400 watts from it,continuous.

I agree that TV,stereo,etc,is inappropriate for camping.
Camping is about ESCAPING all that stuff,enjoying nature,bugs and all.
Laptops on a camping trip? sheesh,why not just pitch a tent in your
backyard?
then you can run an extension cord from your house to run all your stuff.

[Jim Yanik]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in

news:r4ntv7p7tjtlrn5uh...@4ax.com:

the TEK 1710,20,30 professional TV waveform monitors SMPS would commonly
fail high,and burn a hole in the PCB under the HV OSC xstr in the process.
they regulate off the +5,but the +5 main filter cap would go high in
ESR,the PS would drive harder to keep up,the +40unreg for the HV osc would
go to >60v,and the osc xstr would overdissipate and char the PCB.
Eventually,the PS would go into current limit,or fail to start.the PCB was
usually conductive under the osc xstr.

TEK had bunches of problems with caps in their TV products,I'd replace them
by the handfuls. I finally got myself a Dick Smith ESR meter...on my own
dime.

[Jim Yanik]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in

news:ur0uv7p14dnd9r9us...@4ax.com:

> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 12:46:03 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
><mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>The last time I slept in a 'tent' was in the early '70s in Alaska.
>>Cold weather survival training.
>
> Camping these days for me is done in 2-3 star hotels (i.e. Motel 6). I
> can't afford 5 star.
>
> I did something like that, except in the desert. I wasn't paying
> attention, forgot to do a few things, and ended up dehydrated, with a
> major sunburn, and infested with sand fleas.
>
>>Have you ever built a fire with frozen wood, or cut down small,
>>ice covered trees without an axe?
>
> Not frozen, but certainly wet wood. I've been heating my house during
> the winter with firewood for 39 years. At one point, I was cursed
> with some soaking wet green firewood. Even mixed with dry wood it
> didn't burn very well. It was better than freezing, so I eventually
> learned how to start a fire with the stuff with a propane torch. I
> also used an axe, hatchet, chain saw, bow saw, and table saw to
> prepare the logs and kindling.
>
> I've converted small trees into kindling by driving over them with a
> bulldozer, but I suspect that's not what you were doing. How did you
> prepare firewood from iced over trees? Cable saw? Swiss army knife?
> Explosives? I would have just scrounged for dead fall branches on the
> ground and left the wet live trees alone.
>

When I was a kid,I read an old Argosy magazine(outdoorsman stuff) about how
the author would camp in wintertime in his shirtsleeves,no special cold
weather gear. He'd make a bed out of pine branches stripped from trees and
lay on that,it insulated him from the cold ground. So after Xmas,I got a
couple of discarded Xmas trees,stripped them,made a bed several inches
thick,and camped out in the backyard. It worked. All I had was a thin
sleeping bag,and a canvas leanto for cover. Wasn't cold at all,despite a
foot of snow in the yard.

BTW,pine cones light pretty easily,they're full of resins and turps,good
for starting fires. They burn hot.

[Jamie]

David WE Roberts wrote:

>
> "D. T. Green" <gre...@mail.invalid> wrote in message
> news:jtjhh2$doc$1...@dont-email.me...

>
>> On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we
>> have heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is
>> running very roughly, and is really noisy.
>>
>> Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for
>> connecting to televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.
>>

>> Has anybody any experience with one of these very cheap generators ?
>> (Only £59 ).
>>

>> Also saying they are not suitable for sensitive electronic equipment;
>> would that just be the manufacturers covering themselves? Would
>> buying something like a *surge- protector* make it possible to use the
>> generator with a portable television?
>
>
>

> Some of the extra money paind for more expensive generators goes towards
> the extra electronics which ensure a stable a/c output similar to mains
> current. This is generaly described as an inverter system
>
> Believe the instructions.
> It is not suitable.
>
> There are warnings against these very cheap generators on caravan and
> mobile home discussion fora, as they can damage the internal electrics
> of the more sophisticated systems.
>
> Cheers
>
> Dave R
If you want my honest opinion, I wouldn't use any crap devices that
couldn't handle a noisy or shaky power line.. Do you really think the
commercial power is a 100% ?

If the device can't handle a little frequency and voltage variation
with a little noise on it, then the device was designed as a cheap, get
it out the door garbage money maker.

P.S.

I have the 2000 Watt Peak generator that Aldi's has or did have. Yes
, it is a little noisy however, frequency only varies +/- 3 Hz from what
I could see and voltage was with in reason under load changes..

The wave form on it looked almost as good as my 5000 watt Honda
generator..

So putting that into prospective, I guess if you think the Aldi
generate is crap, maybe I shouldn't use my Honda either!


jamie

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 12:46:03 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >The last time I slept in a 'tent' was in the early '70s in Alaska.
> >Cold weather survival training.
>
> Camping these days for me is done in 2-3 star hotels (i.e. Motel 6). I
> can't afford 5 star.
>
> I did something like that, except in the desert. I wasn't paying
> attention, forgot to do a few things, and ended up dehydrated, with a
> major sunburn, and infested with sand fleas.
>
> >Have you ever built a fire with frozen wood, or cut down small,
> >ice covered trees without an axe?
>
> Not frozen, but certainly wet wood. I've been heating my house during
> the winter with firewood for 39 years. At one point, I was cursed
> with some soaking wet green firewood. Even mixed with dry wood it
> didn't burn very well. It was better than freezing, so I eventually
> learned how to start a fire with the stuff with a propane torch. I
> also used an axe, hatchet, chain saw, bow saw, and table saw to
> prepare the logs and kindling.
>
> I've converted small trees into kindling by driving over them with a
> bulldozer, but I suspect that's not what you were doing. How did you
> prepare firewood from iced over trees? Cable saw? Swiss army knife?
> Explosives? I would have just scrounged for dead fall branches on the
> ground and left the wet live trees alone.

Anything already on the ground was under ice, and we were in fairly
heavy Alaskan forest on an Army base. Since it was survival training,
you weren't worried about a couple dozen to a hundred small trees when
there were 20+ 'victims' trying to not only stay alive, but get back to
main base without losing body parts.

When you needed firewood you picked a pine tree 4 - 6" in diameter,
turned your back to it and kicked it with the bottom of your heavy
arctic boot. The pine trees grew fast, and only on one side due to the
high winds. These were trees that would have been too bad for 'Charlie
Brown' to take home. ;-) The tree trunk would snap off about six inches
above ground. Then you would drag the entire tree to the fire and toss
it in. The flames were going about 60' into the air, but you could
barely feel the heat, six feet from the fire. Because of the low
temperature, the fire could burn out completely in minutes to the point
that you couldn't find a warm coal in the ashes. You could die in under
two minutes from exposure to the cold air and 0% humidity. What was
real fun was that you had to remove your arctic boots and put them in
your sleeping bag when you went to bed. If you didn't take them off, you
would lose the skin on your feet to blisters, and if you didn't put them
in the sleeping bag with you, you could lose your feet to frostbite when
you put them back on.


BTW, the remaining stump looked like it had been polished when the
tree broke off.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jim Yanik wrote:
>
> When I was a kid,I read an old Argosy magazine(outdoorsman stuff) about how
> the author would camp in wintertime in his shirtsleeves,no special cold
> weather gear. He'd make a bed out of pine branches stripped from trees and
> lay on that,it insulated him from the cold ground. So after Xmas,I got a
> couple of discarded Xmas trees,stripped them,made a bed several inches
> thick,and camped out in the backyard. It worked. All I had was a thin
> sleeping bag,and a canvas leanto for cover. Wasn't cold at all,despite a
> foot of snow in the yard.
>
> BTW,pine cones light pretty easily,they're full of resins and turps,good
> for starting fires. They burn hot.

The pine cones were all gone by the time they took us out for
survival training. They had fallen months before the early December
class at Ft. Greely. The trees had very few needles, due to the high
winds, and animals eating any they could reach. These trees were
nothing to write home about. They were mostly iced over trunks and some
branches.

[Michael A. Terrell]

No, you need a bigger one to electrocute yourself, Maynard. Those
small generators put out a crap waveform, and are intended for resistive
loads. That Honda has a cleaner output but nothing like the AC mains
used to, before SMPS became common.

[Rod Speed]

Arfa Daily <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote

>> Wrong when the only downside of that generator is that
>> it may well not control the voltage and frequency of what
>> it generates very accurately. The SMPS won't give a damn.

> You don't know that.

Yes I do.

> For all you know, the output might be covered in crap like ignition noise.

And a SMPS won't give a damn.

> In which case, a lot of switchers will fail sooner or later.

Fantasy.

> I don't know what your background is

Leaves yours for dead.

> - I've never seen you on S.E.R. before so I guess you're here as a result
> of the cross-posting. For all I know, you might be the best SMPS designer
> in the world, and your efforts might be bomb-proof. But for every one of
> you, there are a thousand Chinese sticking their shit-street designs in
> everything from light bulbs to vacuum cleaners. I see this crap every day
> (as well as some good ones) and many of the designs do, as I said, work by
> the skin of their teeth. If you throw mains at them that's covered in
> spikes and other garbage, they *will* fail.

Fantasy.

> It's not at all rare to see items such as TV sets that have been used on
> the end of cheap inverters and generators, with either blown power
> supplies, or corrupted EEPROMs.

Its nothing like as common as you originally claimed.

> I would also point out that many cheap Chinese designs without a PFC front
> end rated to 260 volts AC, have a single main filter cap rated at 400 v.
> Even with mains at the high end of 'normal', that doesn't allow a lot of
> overhead. If the output of this generator is poorly regulated, the input
> voltage to the power supply could easily take this cap close to its
> limits.

But it doesn't just curl up and die when that happens.

> In which case such a supply may well 'give a damn'.

Unlikely.

[gregz]

My 90's fridge only draws 200 watts, but 1500 watts in defrost. My little
generator will run my 5k btu air conditioner, but it running the generator
hard and uses a lot of gas, small tank.

Greg

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:27:17 -0500, Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov>
wrote:

>will an 800 WATT generator keep a fridge going?

Yes. Most small camper refrigerators draw about 3A max at 12V. 36VA
is not going to cause much trouble for an alleged 800 watt generator.

However, there's a potential catch. Most generators will not run,
much less start, with the full rated load. The operating power is
usually somewhat less than the advertised output power. In addition,
some generators have two phase outputs. The rated power is for the
sum of the two phases power. That means each 117VAC load can only be
1/2 the advertised power. Caveat Emptor.

>an 800 watt generator might not run the TV and the satellite
>receiver[humor]....considering that 800 watts is maximum output(surge?),and
>you can realistically expect only 400 watts from it,continuous.

For how long? The data sheets I've seen on real generators (i.e.
Honda) include derating specs at different loads. Typically, you can
run it at half power forever.

Incidentally, for multi-fuel generators, the rated spec is usually for
gasoline. However, if you're running propane or natural gas, the max
output is about 80% of the gasoline rating. Caveat Emptor 2.0.

>I agree that TV,stereo,etc,is inappropriate for camping.
>Camping is about ESCAPING all that stuff,enjoying nature,bugs and all.
>Laptops on a camping trip?

Yep. I'm also addicted. I've tried twice to spend a weekend at home
without touching a computah or watching TV. Each time, I lasted about
8 hours. However, I do have a handy getaway. I live in a forest.
Behind my house is Fall Creek State Park, inhabited only by drug
growers, illegal campers, nosey critters, and various bugs that bite.
If I get fed up with civilization, I grab my pack and supplies, and
head for the hills. I've spent a few days on a mountain top watching
the clouds drift by. My usual incentive to return is running out of
potable water.

>sheesh,why not just pitch a tent in your
>backyard?

I did that when I was a kid. I went urban camping in the back yard on
the lawn. It was required for some obscure class I was taking. I
didn't get any sleep from the strange noises. Sneaking inside for a
bathroom visit was considered acceptable. Meals were catered by my
mother. Not much of a wilderness experience, but you have to start
somewhere.

>then you can run an extension cord from your house to run all your stuff.

Only if the cord is approved for indoor/outdoor use. Check the label.

[spamtrap1888]

On Jul 11, 2:37 am, "D. T. Green" <gree...@mail.invalid> wrote:
> On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we have
> heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is running
> very roughly, and is really noisy.
>
> Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for connecting to
> televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.
>
> Has anybody any experience with one of these very cheap generators ? (Only
> 59 ).
>
> Also saying they are not suitable for sensitive electronic equipment; would
> that just be the manufacturers covering themselves?  Would buying something
> like a *surge- protector* make it possible to use the generator with a
> portable television?

Maybe. A power line surge proved to be too much for the surge
protector my old Toshiba CRT TV was plugged into.

Could it be a private labelling of this Einhell generator? I found a
polyglot owners manual for it.

http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/100000-124999/110462-an-01-ml-STROMERZEUGER_BT_PG850_de_en_fr_cs_sk.pdf

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 19:54:09 +1000, "Rod Speed"
<rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote
>> Arfa Daily <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote
>
>>> I merely stated that if you abuse them, they have
>>> a predisposition towards catastrophic failure (...)
>
>> Switchers fail gracefully. The output voltage goes to zero.
>
>Not always.

(...)

I've read a fair quantity of your messages on this topic. All of them
are much like this one. It states your opinion, position, or
pontification. There is no corroborating information, no examples,
and no useful information. While you are certainly entitled to an
opinion, I believe that you will be more effective if you kindly
explain your position.


--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com je...@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

[Rod Speed]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote

> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote
>>> Arfa Daily <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote

>>>> I merely stated that if you abuse them, they have
>>>> a predisposition towards catastrophic failure (...)

>>> Switchers fail gracefully. The output voltage goes to zero.

>> Not always.

> I've read a fair quantity of your messages on this topic.

I've read all of yours.

> All of them are much like this one. It states your opinion, position,
> or pontification. There is no corroborating information, no examples,

Yours in spades.

> and no useful information.

Everyone can see for themselves that that is a lie.

> While you are certainly entitled to an opinion,

And you aren't, particularly with that
absolute claim you made at the top.

> I believe that you will be more effective if you kindly explain your
> position.

I did that with the basics on whether SMPSs give a damn
about the voltage within limits and the frequency in spades.

[Arfa Daily]

>
> Repeating again, I don't see any evidence of an overvoltage problem in
> the multitude of switchers that cross my bench.
>
>>> I like switchers.
>>
>>** But you are an utter ass.
>
> Of course. But I'm still right.
>
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com

It is very common for the cheapo Chinese switchers used in items like DVD
players, to fail in this way. They are extremely susceptible to secondary
side filter cap failure - typically bulging and high ESR. This usually
results in the rail voltage dropping. Most of these supplies take their
control loop reference from just one of the output rails, and if it happens
to be the one that's got the bad cap on - often the case - then the supply
tries to crank it back up to the correct level, which results in all the
other rails going way up. This often results in destruction of LSIs
elsewhere in the item.

As a matter of interest, better quality multi-rail switchers used in some TV
sets, do have a form of 'crowbar' in that all of the rails are monitored for
output voltage, and if any become excessive, they trip a shutdown circuit on
the main supply control IC. The Vestel 17PWxx series that were used in a
number of manufacturer's TVs, are a good example of such.

Arfa

[Arfa Daily]

"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:a68n5k...@mid.individual.net...

OK. You can shut up and piss off now. I've lost all interest in you and
anything you have to say. Clearly, you are one of those know-it-all
dickheads that pop up on usenet from time to time.

Feel free to pop back for another conversation some time, though.

After you've learnt to spell would be good ...

Arfa

[Rod Speed]

Arfa Daily <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote

>> Repeating again, I don't see any evidence of an overvoltage problem in
>> the multitude of switchers that cross my bench.

>>>> I like switchers.

>>> But you are an utter ass.

>> Of course. But I'm still right.

> It is very common for the cheapo Chinese switchers used in items like DVD
> players, to fail in this way.

You have no idea that they did fail by overvoltage.

> They are extremely susceptible to secondary side filter cap failure -
> typically bulging and high ESR.

Doesn't mean that they failed by overvoltage, just bad caps.

> This usually results in the rail voltage dropping. Most of these supplies
> take their control loop reference from just one of the output rails, and
> if it happens to be the one that's got the bad cap on - often the case

Another sweeping statement that can't be substantiated.

> - then the supply tries to crank it back up to the correct level, which
> results in all the other rails going way up. This often results in
> destruction of LSIs elsewhere in the item.

Not even possible when it's the rail that
powers the LSIs that has the bad cap.

> As a matter of interest, better quality multi-rail switchers used in some
> TV sets, do have a form of 'crowbar' in that all of the rails are
> monitored for output voltage, and if any become excessive, they trip a
> shutdown circuit on the main supply control IC.

That's not a crowbar. A crowbar shorts out the rail like a real crowbar
would do.

> The Vestel 17PWxx series that were used in a number of manufacturer's TVs,
> are a good example of such.

But its not a crowbar.

[Rod Speed]

Arfa Daily <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote

You can go and fuck yourself.

> I've lost all interest in you and anything you have to say.

Yeah, fools like you hate it when you
nose is rubbed in your terminal stupiditys.

<reams of your puerile attempts at insults any 2 year
old could leave for dead flushed where they belong>

[Arfa Daily]

"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:a69943...@mid.individual.net...

> Arfa Daily <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote
>
>>> Repeating again, I don't see any evidence of an overvoltage problem in
>>> the multitude of switchers that cross my bench.
>
>>>>> I like switchers.
>
>>>> But you are an utter ass.
>
>>> Of course. But I'm still right.
>
>> It is very common for the cheapo Chinese switchers used in items like DVD
>> players, to fail in this way.
>
> You have no idea that they did fail by overvoltage.

You don't know what the fuck you are talking about you stupid arsewipe.

>
>> They are extremely susceptible to secondary side filter cap failure -
>> typically bulging and high ESR.
>
> Doesn't mean that they failed by overvoltage, just bad caps.

Can't read either, can you ?

>
>> This usually results in the rail voltage dropping. Most of these supplies
>> take their control loop reference from just one of the output rails, and
>> if it happens to be the one that's got the bad cap on - often the case
>
> Another sweeping statement that can't be substantiated.

What the fuck would you know about it you half witted plank ? How many do
you repair. Oh yes, I forgot, you are an unemployed and unemployable fool

>
>> - then the supply tries to crank it back up to the correct level, which
>> results in all the other rails going way up. This often results in
>> destruction of LSIs elsewhere in the item.
>
> Not even possible when it's the rail that
> powers the LSIs that has the bad cap.

Again, you are a total fuckwit who clearly understands nothing about the
realities of electronic service

>
>> As a matter of interest, better quality multi-rail switchers used in some
>> TV sets, do have a form of 'crowbar' in that all of the rails are
>> monitored for output voltage, and if any become excessive, they trip a
>> shutdown circuit on the main supply control IC.
>
> That's not a crowbar. A crowbar shorts out the rail like a real crowbar
> would do.

Stupid little man. Do you not understand the function of single inverted
commas ? No, of course you don't, because you're fundamentally as thick as
kangaroo shit

>
>> The Vestel 17PWxx series that were used in a number of manufacturer's
>> TVs, are a good example of such.
>
> But its not a crowbar.
>
>

You are a dopey twat who cannot even read properly. Now fuck off back under
your antipodean stone

Arfa

[Arfa Daily]

"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:a699ab...@mid.individual.net...

Sad, sad little twat ...

Arfa
>

[Rod Speed]

Some gutless fuckwit desperately cowering behind
Arfa Daily <arfa....@ntlworld.com> desperately attempted
to bullshit and insult its way out of its predicament and fooled
absolutely no one at all, as always.

[Rod Speed]

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 10:19:01 +1000, "Rod Speed"
<rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> I believe that you will be more effective if you kindly explain your
>> position.

>I did that with the basics on whether SMPSs give a damn
>about the voltage within limits and the frequency in spades.

Yep. Too bad it was incomplete. Generators have an irritating habit
of producing distorted waveforms when loaded unevenly between phases.
This is fairly common with generators that have two phases, 180
degrees apart, for outputs. Load one at 400VA and look at the
waveform. It's fairly ugly.

The problem is that all switching supplies that actually comply with
some governments conducted radiation standard has a 50/60 Hz low pass
filter on the AC input. That's great for keeping the high frequency
hash from radiating out the power line, but not so great when
presented with an input waveform full of harmonics. It's not too
horrible, but it is a consideration. For example, if the input to the
switcher were a square wave, 1/3 of the power would be in the
harmonics. That power has to go somewhere. Some is reflected, but
most of it is dissipated in the input filter. At 400 VA, that's about
133 watts of smog.

With an unbalance load, most generators will have up to 5% of the
power in harmonics. It's worse for small generators because the cores
like to saturate at rated power output. At 400 VA (one phase), that's
about 20 watts dissipated. Some switchers can handle it, others
prefer to blow the input fuse, if there is an input fuse or breaker.

[Rod Speed]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote

>> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote

>>> I believe that you will be more effective if you kindly explain your
>>> position.

>> I did that with the basics on whether SMPSs give a damn
>> about the voltage within limits and the frequency in spades.

> Yep. Too bad it was incomplete.

Just like yours on how SMPSs fail was.

> Generators have an irritating habit of producing distorted
> waveforms when loaded unevenly between phases.

Irrelevant to the generator being discussed which can't do that.

> This is fairly common with generators that have
> two phases, 180 degrees apart, for outputs.

But the generator being discussed doesn't.

> Load one at 400VA and look at the waveform. It's fairly ugly.

And you don't get that with the generator being discussed.

> The problem is that all switching supplies that actually comply
> with some governments conducted radiation standard has a
> 50/60 Hz low pass filter on the AC input. That's great for keeping
> the high frequency hash from radiating out the power line, but not
> so great when presented with an input waveform full of harmonics.

You don't get that with the generator being discussed.

> It's not too horrible, but it is a consideration.

Not with the generator being discussed it isnt.

> For example, if the input to the switcher were a square wave,

It isnt with the generator being discussed.

> 1/3 of the power would be in the harmonics.

It isnt with the generator being discussed.

> That power has to go somewhere.

Not with the generator being discussed it doesn't.

> Some is reflected, but most of it
> is dissipated in the input filter.

Not with the generator being discussed it isnt.

> At 400 VA, that's about 133 watts of smog.

Not with the generator being discussed it isnt.

> With an unbalance load,

Can't happen with the generator being discussed.

> most generators will have up to 5% of the power in harmonics.

Not with the generator being discussed it doesn't.

> It's worse for small generators because the cores
> like to saturate at rated power output. At 400 VA
> (one phase), that's about 20 watts dissipated.

Not with the generator being discussed it isnt.

> Some switchers can handle it, others prefer to blow
> the input fuse, if there is an input fuse or breaker.

Doesn't happen with the generator being
discussed driving the TV being discussed.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Arfa Daily wrote:

>
> Rod Speed wrote:
> >
> > You have no idea that they did fail by overvoltage.
>
> You don't know what the fuck you are talking about you stupid arsewipe.

Don't waste your time with this troll.

<https://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=active&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=%22rod+speed%22+troll&oq=%22rod+speed%22+troll&gs_l=serp.3..0i30j0i8i30.7123.8598.0.11649.2.2.0.0.0.0.92.162.2.2.0...0.0...1c.Us4JMvoBRrQ>

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:08:36 +1000, "Rod Speed"
<rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Load one at 400VA and look at the waveform. It's fairly ugly.
>
>And you don't get that with the generator being discussed.

An unbalanced load isn't required, which only creates even order
(asymmetric) distortion. A single phase generator will happily create
odd order (symmetrical) distortion without an unbalanced generator
load. For example:
<http://www2.electronicproducts.com/Generators_UPSs_match_or_bridge_to_nowhere-article-fapo_Falcon_mar2009-html.aspx>
Scroll down to the oscilloscope photograph. Note the noise and
distortion. This is fairly typical of cheapo small geneators with
mechanical regulators. I've seen worse.

Speaking of worse, not the oscilloscope photos:
<http://www.screenlightandgrip.com/html/emailnewsletter_generators.html>
<http://www.jkovach.net/projects/powerquality/>
<http://www.bwpowertools.com/channels/246_v.aspx>

It's this garbage waveform that causes switching power supplies to
complain and UPS power supplies to refuse to run on generator power.

Incidentally, if you plan to look at the waveforms produced by a
gasoline generator with an oscillosope, use two scope probes and
differential inputs. One probe connects to each side of the power
line. The two probe grounds go to the generator frame ground. The
scope input selector is set to A-B. That will remove any common mode
noise on the display, and provide some protection against accidentally
getting the oscilloscope case at line potential.

[John Rumm]

On 13/07/2012 02:23, Arfa Daily wrote:
>
>
> "Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:a69943...@mid.individual.net...
>> Arfa Daily <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote
>>
>>>> Repeating again, I don't see any evidence of an overvoltage problem
>>>> in the multitude of switchers that cross my bench.
>>
>>>>>> I like switchers.
>>
>>>>> But you are an utter ass.
>>
>>>> Of course. But I'm still right.
>>
>>> It is very common for the cheapo Chinese switchers used in items like
>>> DVD players, to fail in this way.
>>
>> You have no idea that they did fail by overvoltage.
>
>
>
> You don't know what the fuck you are talking about you stupid arsewipe.

Its wodney, you know that is always his starting point!


--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[Rod Speed]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote

> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote

>>> Load one at 400VA and look at the waveform. It's fairly ugly.

>>And you don't get that with the generator being discussed.

> An unbalanced load isn't required, which only creates
> even order (asymmetric) distortion. A single phase
> generator will happily create odd order (symmetrical)
> distortion without an unbalanced generator load.

But you don't get anything like the amount of distortion
you were going on about, so it isnt a problem with an SMPS
being powered from that particular generator being discussed.

> For example:
> <http://www2.electronicproducts.com/Generators_UPSs_match_or_bridge_to_nowhere-article-fapo_Falcon_mar2009-html.aspx>
> Scroll down to the oscilloscope photograph. Note the noise and
> distortion.

No SMPS will have a problem with that.

> This is fairly typical of cheapo small geneators
> with mechanical regulators. I've seen worse.

You don't know that the generator
being discussed is anything like that.

> Speaking of worse, not the oscilloscope photos:
> <http://www.screenlightandgrip.com/html/emailnewsletter_generators.html>
> <http://www.jkovach.net/projects/powerquality/>
> <http://www.bwpowertools.com/channels/246_v.aspx>

> It's this garbage waveform that causes switching power supplies to
> complain

You don't know that the generator being discussed will produce that result.

> and UPS power supplies to refuse to run on generator power.

One of those wasn't even being discussed.

> Incidentally, if you plan to look at the waveforms produced by a
> gasoline generator with an oscillosope, use two scope probes and
> differential inputs. One probe connects to each side of the power
> line. The two probe grounds go to the generator frame ground.
> The scope input selector is set to A-B. That will remove any common
> mode noise on the display, and provide some protection against
> accidentally getting the oscilloscope case at line potential.

No news to me.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Tim Streater wrote:
> In article <a69sgs...@mid.individual.net>,
> "Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [not much]
>
> Why are your posts so content-free?
>
empty vessels....

--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

[Jim Yanik]

gregz <ze...@comcast.net> wrote in
news:1511051433363816740.9...@news.eternal-september.o
rg:

your fridge may draw it's 200 watts once the compressor motor is
running,but on startup,it draws a lot more.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

[Jim Yanik]

Tim Streater <timst...@greenbee.net> wrote in news:timstreater-
D0D737.112...@news.individual.net:

> In article <a69sgs...@mid.individual.net>,
> "Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [not much]
>
> Why are your posts so content-free?
>

why does anyone respond to them?
this is what killfiles are for.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 16:11:35 +1000, "Rod Speed"
<rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>
>>>> Load one at 400VA and look at the waveform. It's fairly ugly.
>
>>>And you don't get that with the generator being discussed.
>
>> An unbalanced load isn't required, which only creates
>> even order (asymmetric) distortion. A single phase
>> generator will happily create odd order (symmetrical)
>> distortion without an unbalanced generator load.
>
>But you don't get anything like the amount of distortion
>you were going on about, so it isnt a problem with an SMPS
>being powered from that particular generator being discussed.

The oscilloscope photos in the URL's mentioned show the output
waveforms with and without loads. As I indicated, and you apparently
missed, it is NOT necessary to have an unbalanced load on the
generator in order to produce a distorted waveform. Also, it's a fair
assumption that this 800 watt generator is going to be powering more
than one device while camping. Besides the TV, there might be some
lamps, a laptop charger, satellite TV receiver, smartphone charger,
inkjet printer, and all the conveniences of portable modern living. In
general, the generator waveforms become more distorted with increased
load.

>> For example:
>> <http://www2.electronicproducts.com/Generators_UPSs_match_or_bridge_to_nowhere-article-fapo_Falcon_mar2009-html.aspx>
>> Scroll down to the oscilloscope photograph. Note the noise and
>> distortion.
>
>No SMPS will have a problem with that.

As I previously suggested, some substantiation would be helpful. If
you had impeccable credentials, were a recognized authority, had
previously demonstrated expertise in this area, and perhaps were a
Nobel Prize recipient, I might accept your unsubstantiated judgments
without question. However, lacking those requirements, and being
apparently only able to produce one-line erroneous statements of
negligible value, you do not qualify. Please explain why numerous
articles on generator to UPS compatibility should be ignored.

In the past odd 20 years, I've run emergency generator versus
switching power supply problems many times. My favorite was while
working with computahs at a medical billing office. Someone dragged
in a Genrac 8kw(?) generator and wired it to a transfer box. It was a
professionally done installation by a licensed electrician. I
stupidly suggested we do a dry run with the building on full power,
and was immediately assigned the task. The day arrived, the big
switch was thrown, the generator started immediately, and about 30
assorted UPS backup power supplies beeped a few times, and shut down
in self defense. That powered down all the servers and network
hardware, which effectively shut down the network.

On the APC SmartUPS line (as opposed to the BackUPS line), there is a
switch to reduce the sensitivity to input waveform distortion. We
went around flipping switches and rebooting servers (after a 30
minutes file system check). When everything was back up and running,
the power was again switched off, and again all the UPS's shut down.

I drove to my palatial office and back with an oscilloscope to look at
the waveform. Even without a load, it looked something like this:
<http://www.electronicproducts.com/images2/fapo_Falcon01_mar2009.gif>
When I added all the non-computer loads to the Genrac generator, the
waveform became asymmetrical, because the load was not balanced
between the two phases. My clamp-on ammeter showed about 10A on one
leg and 7A on the other. It didn't take much to cause problems.

After about 8 power fail simulations, we were never able to bring
everything back up gracefully on generator power. It wasn't just the
UPS's that were having issues. The DVR for the security camera
systems refused to run. The wall warts for powering some Netgear
switches blew up and had to be replaced. Several CRT monitors acted
strangely and refused to produce a stable display. The Lucent phone
system would go into protection mode intermittently.

After the exercise was over, I elected to restore two of the servers
from backup tapes, because I didn't want to take the chance that all
the power thrashing had caused any data corruption. That took most of
the night. When business resumed on Monday, it was soon discovered
that the one server that I did NOT restore, had some minor data
corruption.

There was no way the office was going to run on this 6kw(?) generator.
The generator was removed, permits arranged, and a rather monstrous
and expensive 25kw diesel generator was installed. Attached to the
power leads was a large box full of low pass filter components to
remove spikes. I didn't need to look at the waveforms as it ran the
various UPS devices and switching power supplies perfectly.

>You don't know that the generator
>being discussed is anything like that.

You don't know what I know.

>No news to me.

True. You haven't learned anything. I judge people by their
willingness and abilities to learn. You fail both criteria.

A while ago, I attempted to classify various usenet personality types.
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/genesis.txt>
At the time, I hadn't even considered a classification suitable for
your style. You post useless and erroneous comments, and then wait
for those with some understanding of the topic to correct your
misinformation. The more attention you attract, the more useless
comments you produce, resulting in a positive feedback mechanism. I
suspect that your primary purpose is to attract corrective attention,
rather than answer the questions or debate the validity of the
proposed explanations. Had you demonstrated some understanding of the
topic by asking some intelligent questions, I might consider
continuing, but as it stands, I have no interest in entertaining you
or cleaning up your mess. Good day.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> If
> you had impeccable credentials, were a recognized authority, had
> previously demonstrated expertise in this area, and perhaps were a
> Nobel Prize recipient,

Er Jeff, this is Rod Speed, ultimate Internet idiot par excellence you
are addressing.

Don't waste our bandwidth,.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 09:54:49 -0500, Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov>
wrote:

>why does anyone respond to them?
>this is what killfiles are for.

Curiosity. I'm somewhat of an amateur psychologist. I like to see
what motivates people and how they think. That's difficult to do with
only one-line pontifications so I primed the pump with some content to
see if some intelligence might gush forth from the depths. Apparently
not. So, with my curiousity thus satisfied, I now return to the
mundane tasks of fixing things, tilting at windmills, and raising the
dead.

[Rod Speed]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote

>>>>> Load one at 400VA and look at the waveform. It's fairly ugly.

>>>> And you don't get that with the generator being discussed.

>>> An unbalanced load isn't required, which only creates
>>> even order (asymmetric) distortion. A single phase
>>> generator will happily create odd order (symmetrical)
>>> distortion without an unbalanced generator load.

>> But you don't get anything like the amount of distortion
>> you were going on about, so it isnt a problem with an SMPS
>> being powered from that particular generator being discussed.

> The oscilloscope photos in the URL's mentioned
> show the output waveforms with and without loads.

Yes, but you don't in fact get anything like the distortion
that you were going on about with unbalanced loads on
2 phase generators which aren't even relevant to the
particular generator and load being discussed.

> As I indicated, and you apparently missed, it is
> NOT necessary to have an unbalanced load on the
> generator in order to produce a distorted waveform.

Didn't miss anything. The distortion actually seen with the
particular generator and load being discussed is nothing
like enough to be a problem with a well designed SMPS.

> Also, it's a fair assumption that this 800 watt generator is
> going to be powering more than one device while camping.

Yes, but that's not necessarily much of a load.

> Besides the TV, there might be some lamps, a laptop
> charger, satellite TV receiver, smartphone charger, inkjet
> printer, and all the conveniences of portable modern living.

None of which are much of a load.

> In general, the generator waveforms become more distorted with increased
> load.

Duh. But even with all of those you listed, it
won't be a problem for a well designed SMPS.

>>> For example:
>>> <http://www2.electronicproducts.com/Generators_UPSs_match_or_bridge_to_nowhere-article-fapo_Falcon_mar2009-html.aspx>
>>> Scroll down to the oscilloscope photograph. Note the noise and
>>> distortion.

>> No SMPS will have a problem with that.

> As I previously suggested, some substantiation would be helpful.

You didn't provide any of that yourself until I rubbed your nose
in the fact that you never provided any yourself on your claim
about how SMPSs fail.

> If you had impeccable credentials, were a recognized authority,
> had previously demonstrated expertise in this area, and perhaps
> were a Nobel Prize recipient, I might accept your unsubstantiated
> judgments without question. However, lacking those requirements,
> and being apparently only able to produce one-line erroneous
> statements of negligible value, you do not qualify.

You in spades with your claim about how SMPSs fail.

> Please explain why numerous articles on generator
> to UPS compatibility should be ignored.

Because we arent discussing UPSs, we are discussing TVs instead.

> In the past odd 20 years, I've run emergency generator versus
> switching power supply problems many times. My favorite was while
> working with computahs at a medical billing office. Someone dragged
> in a Genrac 8kw(?) generator and wired it to a transfer box. It was a
> professionally done installation by a licensed electrician. I
> stupidly suggested we do a dry run with the building on full power,
> and was immediately assigned the task. The day arrived, the big
> switch was thrown, the generator started immediately, and about 30
> assorted UPS backup power supplies beeped a few times, and shut
> down in self defense. That powered down all the servers and
> network hardware, which effectively shut down the network.

Completely and utterly irrelevant to what was being discussed,
that PARTICULAR generator mentioned in the subject and a TV.

> On the APC SmartUPS line (as opposed to the BackUPS line), there
> is a switch to reduce the sensitivity to input waveform distortion.
> We went around flipping switches and rebooting servers (after a 30
> minutes file system check). When everything was back up and running,
> the power was again switched off, and again all the UPS's shut down.

Completely and utterly irrelevant to what was being discussed,
that PARTICULAR generator mentioned in the subject and a TV.

All completely and utterly irrelevant to what was being discussed,
that PARTICULAR generator mentioned in the subject and a TV.

>> You don't know that the generator
>> being discussed is anything like that.

> You don't know what I know.

I do know that you were rabbiting on about
two phase generators and UPSs that have
NOTHING to do with what the OP asked about.

>> No news to me.

> True. You haven't learned anything.

Yep, none of the irrelevant shit you posted is any news to me.

> I judge people by their willingness and abilities to learn.

No one give a flying red fuck how you stupidly 'judge' people.

Particularly when you keep raving on about about situations that
have NOTHING to do with what was actually being discussed.

> You fail both criteria.

Everyone can see for themselves that you are lying.

<reams of your puerile attempts at insults that any 2 year

[John Rumm]

On 13/07/2012 17:36, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 16:11:35 +1000, "Rod Speed"
> <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> No SMPS will have a problem with that.
>
> As I previously suggested, some substantiation would be helpful. If
> you had impeccable credentials, were a recognized authority, had
> previously demonstrated expertise in this area, and perhaps were a
> Nobel Prize recipient, I might accept your unsubstantiated judgments
> without question. However, lacking those requirements, and being
> apparently only able to produce one-line erroneous statements of
> negligible value, you do not qualify. Please explain why numerous
> articles on generator to UPS compatibility should be ignored.

Alas you are wasting effort arguing with woddles - the most clue
resistant poster uk.d-i-y has known...

While the evidence would suggest otherwise, logic suggests that he can't
actually be totally stupid, because to be so consistently wrong on every
single one of the many topics he is willing to submit his opinion, must
actually take some considerable effort. Most clueless twonks actually
get the right answer by accident sometimes.

[gregz]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:08:36 +1000, "Rod Speed"
> <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> Incidentally, if you plan to look at the waveforms produced by a
> gasoline generator with an oscillosope, use two scope probes and
> differential inputs. One probe connects to each side of the power
> line. The two probe grounds go to the generator frame ground. The
> scope input selector is set to A-B. That will remove any common mode
> noise on the display, and provide some protection against accidentally
> getting the oscilloscope case at line potential.
>

Sounds like I have have to do a test with my two generators. One small
single out. One double output, 240 max. Get back later.

Greg

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 23:14:52 +0000 (UTC), gregz <ze...@comcast.net>
wrote:

I have 3 generators, none of which work. I dragged them home with the
intention of repairing them, and never found the time. Although I
didn't do this, you could add 10K resistors between the 10:1 probe
tips and the AC line connections, without trashing the waveform.

Good luck and please be careful.

Eaton's PSEC - Harmonics
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoZQsGJ3WjY> (5 min)
The first few minutes show waveforms comparing a linear load (light
bulb) and a non-linear load (switcher). Note the comments on
overheating and harmonics.

[gregz]

I'm thinking I have X10 probes, but thanks. I would rather use a two
channel batter scope, but I don't have one. Then again, 8 bit resolution
crap.

Greg

[Cydrome Leader]

In sci.electronics.repair Arfa Daily <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>
> "Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:a668p2...@mid.individual.net...
>>
>>
>> "Arfa Daily" <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>> news:AbhLr.750174$4v3.3...@fx08.am4...
>>>
>>>
>>> "Martin Brown" <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:qEcLr.48899$iI7....@newsfe03.iad...
>>>> On 11/07/2012 10:37, D. T. Green wrote:
>>>>> On just buying a 800 watt 'two' stroke petrol generator from Aldi, we
>>>>> have
>>>>> heard from someone who says that he has got one; and that his is
>>>>> running
>>>>> very roughly, and is really noisy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also it says in the instructions that it is *not* suitable for
>>>>> connecting to
>>>>> televisions or other sensitive electronic equipment.
>>>>
>>>> Likely it is not just acoustically noisy but electronically noisy too
>>>> and the ignition system radio emissions will cause snow on a portable
>>>> TV. It might be so rough and ready electrically either voltage or
>>>> frequency wise that it could fail or wreck some old sets completely. I'd
>>>> expect most modern switched mode PSUs to cope with almost anything but
>>>> then you are taking a risk since the maker says it is unsuitable.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I would have said the exact opposite of that. Linear supplies with a nice
>>> big chunk of L in the way, are pretty much unconcerned about such nasties
>>> as spikes, whereas switchers will fail if you just look at them wrongly
>>> on a day with a Y in it ...
>>
>> Like hell they do.
>>
>>> However, that said, I would agree with everyone else that using this with
>>> modern electronic equipment would not be a good idea.
>>
>> That's just plain wrong with modern switch mode power supplys.
>
>
> I repair hundreds of the things, and irrespective of the topology of any
> individual design, most work by the skin of their teeth. Left alone, in
> general, today's generation are fairly reliable, but in my experience,
> subject them to the slightest abuse, and they fail - often catastrophically
>
> Arfa

I can't imagine a 2 stroke aldi generator would even last long enough to
destroy any electronics. the thing must last about 2-3 minutes tops before
seizing, assuming it even starts out of the box.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <ju1ffc$rid$2...@reader1.panix.com>,

Cydrome Leader <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
> I can't imagine a 2 stroke aldi generator would even last long enough to
> destroy any electronics. the thing must last about 2-3 minutes tops
> before seizing, assuming it even starts out of the box.

That'll be why they give a three year warranty? Instant money back -
provided you have the receipt. Wish others did as well.

--
*If only you'd use your powers for good instead of evil.

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Cydrome Leader]

In sci.electronics.repair "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <ju1ffc$rid$2...@reader1.panix.com>,
> Cydrome Leader <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
>> I can't imagine a 2 stroke aldi generator would even last long enough to
>> destroy any electronics. the thing must last about 2-3 minutes tops
>> before seizing, assuming it even starts out of the box.
>
> That'll be why they give a three year warranty? Instant money back -
> provided you have the receipt. Wish others did as well.

it could be a 100 year warranty. There's no way such a generator isn't
complete trash and won't have the endurance of a birthday cake candle.

[Jamie]

We have a local iced cream truck that rides around through the park at
various parts of the day. It has one of those hanging on the back,
operating the freezer I presume. It seems to work for them just fine,
sounds funny though ;)

Jamie

[brass monkey]

"Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_v...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:h_%Mr.23742$%Y2.1...@newsfe02.iad...

That one tells jokes?
I'll get me coat.

[Muddymike]

I can't vouch for their 2 stroke model but I do own an Aldi 4 stroke
generator that has served me well for 8 years. It doesn't come out often but
when it does it performs faultlessly. It powers everything in the house (not
all at the same time) during power outages, runs power tools away from the
mains, and lighting and PA equipment at an annual outdoor event. The longest
daily use was 7 years ago when we had no power for 5 days, it ran approx. 18
hours a day every day.

Mike

[Bruce Esquibel]

In sci.electronics.repair Cydrome Leader <pres...@mungepanix.com> wrote:

> I can't imagine a 2 stroke aldi generator would even last long enough to
> destroy any electronics. the thing must last about 2-3 minutes tops before
> seizing, assuming it even starts out of the box.

I dunno anything about the Aldi one but several years ago I bought a cheap 2
stroke, 800w, made-in-china one from Menards for $100 or less and it's still
working fine.

We had a nasty ice storm, lost power and after the house dropped to 60, it
was either do something or find a hotel.

It chugged along for hours sitting outside in 20F degree temps, we have hot
water gas heat so it only needed to run the circulation pump. Just did a
quick mod to the electrical on the furnace and ran a heavy guage cord thru a
drilled hole in the wall.

Since then I've used it several times, usually starts on the 3rd or 4th
pull, even after sitting a year or more, stale gas and everything that goes
with it.

Don't get me wrong, contruction wise it's a peice of crap but seems to be
hanging in there just fine.

If I lived in an area that has regular outages, this thing wouldn't be in my
top 10 list (or top 100) but for the occasional use and price, it's just not
as bad as you think.

-bruce
b...@ripco.com

[Plai...@yawhoo.com]

So you lack a grasp of reality. Reliable 2 cycle engines are quite
common - they have been used in chain saws, outboard motors, and a
variety of other uses for more than half a century. The chief cause
of premature failure is some idiot (look in to a mirror for an
example) failing to properly mix the oil and gas.

The generator (actually an alternator) is also trivial. By
incorporating a small permanent magnet into the rotor it would be
trivial to build a self-energizing alternator; output voltage
regulation would be done by stepping the output voltage down,
rectifying it, and varying the current to the rotor windings, just as
is done in an automotive alternator. That output voltage should be
quite stable.

Admitedly, frequency regulation would be poor. They probably use an
air vane governor for speed regulation.

As far as the original question, I wouldn't suggest anyone try to use
one for any application the manufacturer says is unsuitable. But I
would be more concerned about the unstable frequency than the output
voltage. I've seen many LCD monitors whose power supply is rated for
input voltages ranging from 90 to 275 volts AC at 50 - 60 Hz.

PlainBill

[Plai...@yawhoo.com]

This sounds like the one sold by Harbor Freight Tools.

PlainBill

[The Other Mike]

I've seen more or less the same model run for around 50 hours a year
for six years. It rumbled like hell after being run with no oil in
the fuel for about three hours one day, but that was maybe a couple of
years ago. It's now knackered and consigned to the bin as the
governor hunts like mad and it's a bastard to start.

Given that it only cost 70 quid that's 25p per hour plus the cost of
fuel and oil. They might even get a fiver for it on ebay.


--

[Cydrome Leader]

there are great 2 cycle engines, but they don't come from aldi.

[Muddymike]

Have you ever bought any Tools or anything for that matter from Aldi?

Mike

[Arfa Daily]

"Muddymike" <mudd...@mattishall.org.uk> wrote in message
news:o9udnX_rbseHBpTN...@brightview.com...

I've always found their tools quite good, and generally excellent value for
money. A while back, I bought a compressor and a bunch of air tools from
them for a very reasonable price - better than any of the DIY sheds were
offering. Agreed, it's not of 'professional' quality, but it is extremely
well made, has dual ports, both with pressure gauges, and every last nut and
bolt is available as a spare part. It's not particularly quiet, and the tank
is not huge, but as a DIY item, it is more than adequate, and has so far
given me excellent service.

Arfa

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 18:56:15 +0100, "Muddymike"
<mudd...@mattishall.org.uk> wrote:

>>there are great 2 cycle engines, but they don't come from aldi.
>>
>
>Have you ever bought any Tools or anything for that matter from Aldi?

He clearly hasn't. Just a wanker of a tool snob.

[Plai...@yawhoo.com]

That is my experience with the items sold by Harbor Freight Tools. If
I were a professional whose livelihood depended on his tools, Harbor
Freight would not be my preferred source. More than 2 years ago I
bought a 'Sawzall' (reciprocating saw) from HFT for $19.99. A
professional would have preferred the Milwaukee brand ($120 - $150)
whild a dedicated DIYer should have preferred a Porter-Cable product
at $80 - $100. I have used it for perhaps a dozen projects from
cutting a 2' diameter circle out of a piece of 1/2" plywood (metric
conversions available on request) to removing siding and soffit from
an addition.

PlainBill

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <u5ul08ldk44te7psa...@4ax.com>,

<Plai...@yawhoo.com> wrote:
> >> Have you ever bought any Tools or anything for that matter from Aldi?
> >>
> >> Mike
> >
> >I've always found their tools quite good, and generally excellent value
> >for money. A while back, I bought a compressor and a bunch of air
> >tools from them for a very reasonable price - better than any of the
> >DIY sheds were offering. Agreed, it's not of 'professional' quality,
> >but it is extremely well made, has dual ports, both with pressure
> >gauges, and every last nut and bolt is available as a spare part. It's
> >not particularly quiet, and the tank is not huge, but as a DIY item,
> >it is more than adequate, and has so far given me excellent service.
> >
> >Arfa
> That is my experience with the items sold by Harbor Freight Tools. If
> I were a professional whose livelihood depended on his tools, Harbor
> Freight would not be my preferred source. More than 2 years ago I
> bought a 'Sawzall' (reciprocating saw) from HFT for $19.99. A
> professional would have preferred the Milwaukee brand ($120 - $150)
> whild a dedicated DIYer should have preferred a Porter-Cable product
> at $80 - $100. I have used it for perhaps a dozen projects from
> cutting a 2' diameter circle out of a piece of 1/2" plywood (metric
> conversions available on request) to removing siding and soffit from
> an addition.

None of which have much bearing on Aldi.

How long a warranty do those cheap brands give? Lidl and Aldi ones are 3
years.

--
*A dog's not just for Christmas, it's alright on a Friday night too*

[spamtrap1888]

On Jul 21, 12:28 pm, "Dave Plowman (News)" <d...@davenoise.co.uk>
wrote:
> In article <u5ul08ldk44te7psakjp6c7td3ccck8...@4ax.com>,

While I don't live in Aldi country (cydrome leader does) my impression
is that in the States, their non-food items are limited to household
goods -- frying pans, steam irons, that sort of thing.

Even when I stayed two months in Munich, shopping at least once a week
at Aldis, I don't remember seeing any power tools.

[Plai...@yawhoo.com]

Actually it does. Most of these products come out of China, Usually
a single factory is selling the product to a number of retailers,
often the retailer specifies the 'brand name'.

>How long a warranty do those cheap brands give? Lidl and Aldi ones are 3
>years.

Harbor Freight's warranty is typically 90 days, extendable to 2 years.
I'm still using the heat gun I purchaed from them 6 years ago,
likewise the DMM, the saw, torque wrench, etc.

Again, it's not the length of the warranty, it's how long the tool
will last under the purchaser's useage. If a builder saves $100 on a
'sawzall' and it fails under a 3 year warranty, he has lost money
because the down time spent getting it replaced under warranty is
worth more than $100. For someone like me, I have every expectation
any tool I purchase will outlast me (barring abuse or incompetance).

PlainBill

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <jfbo08dqtsjskqpcj...@4ax.com>,

<Plai...@yawhoo.com> wrote:
> >None of which have much bearing on Aldi.
> >
> Actually it does. Most of these products come out of China, Usually
> a single factory is selling the product to a number of retailers,
> often the retailer specifies the 'brand name'.

Almost all consumer goods like this are made in China. And even the same
factory will produce different quality - to the price the buyer wants.

> >How long a warranty do those cheap brands give? Lidl and Aldi ones are 3
> >years.

> Harbor Freight's warranty is typically 90 days, extendable to 2 years.

That sounds like the dark ages in the UK.

> I'm still using the heat gun I purchaed from them 6 years ago,
> likewise the DMM, the saw, torque wrench, etc.

All usually reliable items regardless of maker.

> Again, it's not the length of the warranty, it's how long the tool
> will last under the purchaser's useage. If a builder saves $100 on a
> 'sawzall' and it fails under a 3 year warranty, he has lost money
> because the down time spent getting it replaced under warranty is
> worth more than $100.

Then he buys two at the same time - one as a spare. Because even the best
make will fail eventually and he'll be in the same situation.

> For someone like me, I have every expectation
> any tool I purchase will outlast me (barring abuse or incompetance).

Batteries on cordless tools will fail - you can be sure of that.

--
*Husbands should come with instructions

[Cydrome Leader]

the canned food is extra watery, and I had take the bacon back for a
refund once.

If you can't master canned food, you've got problems.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <juk0bk$5ne$1...@reader1.panix.com>,

Cydrome Leader <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
> > Have you ever bought any Tools or anything for that matter from Aldi?

> the canned food is extra watery, and I had take the bacon back for a
> refund once.

> If you can't master canned food, you've got problems.

You've tried all their canned food?

But you have no knowledge of their tools?

Others here have - including me. And I'd have no hesitation recommending
them as excellent value for money. But I don't have their generator.

--
*Keep honking...I'm reloading.