Laptop not charging.
T i m
I have asked elsewhere but I think this may be more an electronics
than computer question as such so:
A couple of years ago daughter b/f bought a Dell Inspiron 1545 laptop
and it has been running ok till just recently when his Mum caught the
power lead somehow.
From then on it still runs ok from the power adaptor / PSU but it
doesn't seem to want to charge the battery. What could be part of the
same issue is it now flashes the front power indicator with what looks
like 4 fast amber flashes and one longer white.
Going into the BIOS tells us that it thinks the battery is there and
'healthy' but is not charging and at 0%.
We tried another battery and psu from a different 1545 (that had a
broken DC socket) but that didn't change anything.
Yesterday, thinking it /could/ be a socket and where the tiny inner /
3rd pin connects (thinking it might be a 'sense' wire and a socket was
cheap etc) I changed it for him but again, no improvement.
I think it still runs from the battery but of course it's now flat
(coincidentally a mate is considering getting a Dell 1545 so we might
be able to do some tests <g>).
So, is there anything else we could do to try to work out what's going
on here please? I still have some test gear from my 'daze' as a
support tech (DMMs, scope, fc, bench PSU etc).
Cheers, T i m
Ken
I encountered the same symptoms with a Toshiba Satellite laptop my son
had. Your problem might be totally unrelated, but here is what I found:
Toshiba had a problem with the connector they used for the external PS
coming loose on the mother board. Soldering or repairing that connector
did NOT solve all the problems, as like your computer, it would run from
the PS but not charge the battery. It seems my son (knowing nothing
about electronic repair) thought it would be useful to push something
into the case in the area of the power connector, and unknowingly
damaged a surface mounted transistor. I measured the voltages at the
damaged SMD and determined that it needed to be an NPN and what it
needed to withstand voltage and current wise. When I replaced the
transistor it worked fine.
As I said above, your problem might be totally unrelated, but you might
look for any damaged components in the vicinity of the power connector.
Quite a coincidence that the symptoms are identical.
T i m
> I encountered the same symptoms with a Toshiba Satellite laptop my son
>had. Your problem might be totally unrelated, but here is what I found:
Ok and thanks for the reply ..
> Toshiba had a problem with the connector they used for the external PS
>coming loose on the mother board. Soldering or repairing that connector
>did NOT solve all the problems, as like your computer, it would run from
>the PS but not charge the battery.
Ok.
> It seems my son (knowing nothing
>about electronic repair) thought it would be useful to push something
>into the case in the area of the power connector, and unknowingly
>damaged a surface mounted transistor.
Ah. ;-(
> I measured the voltages at the
>damaged SMD and determined that it needed to be an NPN and what it
>needed to withstand voltage and current wise.
Nice to be old enough to remember and know how to deal with
transistors, SM or otherwise eh. ;-)
> When I replaced the
>transistor it worked fine.
Hmm, I don't think there has been any 'tampering' in this case however
these is a (20 pin) ship on the same daughter board that carries the
power socket (and Ethernet and a couple of USBs). I did inspect the
board for any sign of damage but there was none. However, because it
/is/ on a daughter board it would be possible to swap it to at least
see if it were that rather than the system board etc.
>
> As I said above, your problem might be totally unrelated, but you might
>look for any damaged components in the vicinity of the power connector.
> Quite a coincidence that the symptoms are identical.
Indeed.
I would like to think this led flashing sequence actually indicated
'the fault' or at least if it wasn't a formal message that someone
might recognise what it may indicated and give us an idea if it a
feasible repair or something he just lives with (not sure how often it
needs battery power as such bit it would be nice to have (back) in any
case.
All the best,
T i m
Adrian C
> So, is there anything else we could do to try to work out what's going
> on here please? I still have some test gear from my 'daze' as a
> support tech (DMMs, scope, fc, bench PSU etc).
There is a vietnamese web forum that has full schematics for many laptops.
Paste the following into google
site:kythuatvitinh.com inspiron 1545
You'll have to join the forum to download taking care to practice 'safe
hex' with documents you may get.
--
Adrian C
Ken
I see you have a reply that directs you to a website for a schematic.
That might be useful. But not having worked on your computer or one
like it before, here is what I would do:
If the trouble began when the PS lead was pulled, it is possible that
too high a voltage might have been applied if there is a feedback lead
for the PS and it was broken. That might have applied too great a
voltage to the laptop. This is just theory you understand.
I would plug in a known good PS and with a DVM measure both ends of
components near the connector. Look especially close for low value
resistors or anything that might be a SM fuse. If too great a voltage
were applied you might have opened a component and that is why a good PS
still does not work. Also look at the daughter board if it is attached
with a connector to the mother board. A tug on the power connector
might have caused a poor connection where the daughter board meets the MB.
Meat Plow
Something broke inside around the power socket. Some strong light an a
20x magnifying visor might help you find the break.
--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse
T i m
wrote:
>On 29/01/2011 12:24, T i m wrote:
>> So, is there anything else we could do to try to work out what's going
>> on here please? I still have some test gear from my 'daze' as a
>> support tech (DMMs, scope, fc, bench PSU etc).
>
>There is a vietnamese web forum that has full schematics for many laptops.
>
>Paste the following into google
>
>site:kythuatvitinh.com inspiron 1545
Thanks for that. ;-)
>
>You'll have to join the forum to download taking care to practice 'safe
>hex' with documents you may get.
"Sorry, You should have 10 Points to download: ..."?
I'm not sure how I glean points there and whatever it is I'm not sure
I could do so in Vietnamese (even with Google translate).
Frustratingly close though ...
Cheers, T i m
T i m
> I see you have a reply that directs you to a website for a schematic.
>That might be useful.
If I could get to that it could be handy because ..
> But not having worked on your computer or one
>like it before, here is what I would do:
>
> If the trouble began when the PS lead was pulled, it is possible that
>too high a voltage might have been applied if there is a feedback lead
>for the PS and it was broken. That might have applied too great a
>voltage to the laptop. This is just theory you understand.
Understood ...
>
> I would plug in a known good PS and with a DVM measure both ends of
>components near the connector. Look especially close for low value
>resistors or anything that might be a SM fuse.
Thinking about that and what has been said later that makes a lot of
sense and there /is/ a sm device of some sort right behind that socket
(sm stuff was only just being used as I was leaving the trade) so that
could well be it. I guess it's either a sm fuse or diode and it
shouldn't be difficult to test for either.
The lad has just found this site / pictures. ;-)
http://www.deliran.net/refrence/Inspiron_1545/images/tear/SystemboardFirst.jpg
This last pictures here show the charging board pretty clearly (top
left corner is the DC socket).
http://www.deliran.net/refrence/Inspiron_1545/Inspiron_1545_eng/td_fan.htm
You can just see the charger board under the system board top left.
Luckily it looks like you can get to the back of the socket and
'device' with the thing mostly in one piece. Soo, if I measure a
voltage on one side of said device and not the other (with battery in
and charger in an on) /and/ it looks like it's wired in series with
the power socket it would most likely be a fuse?
> If too great a voltage
>were applied you might have opened a component and that is why a good PS
>still does not work.
Yup, nor charge what could be a good (second) battery.
> Also look at the daughter board if it is attached
>with a connector to the mother board. A tug on the power connector
>might have caused a poor connection where the daughter board meets the MB.
It is connected by hard mounted plug / socket pair and I checked for
any possible movement damage on there but the board sits on shouldered
mounting pillars and is still a very rigid connection.
We didn't try to power it up with just the chassis as you have to take
the cpu heatsink off to get the system board off the top of said
charging board but looking back at it with a voltage measurement in
mind it might nearly be doable with just the rear top cover removed
(two screws). I'll have a look in the morning. ;-)
Assuming it is a fuse, are they normally marked with their rating and
if so and if there is space, could I tack a suitably rated / type wire
ended fuse / fusewire in place as an experiment at least?
Looking at eBay if it is the board then 30 quid isn't too terrible
(compared with a new laptop especially).
A fuse would be cheaper of course. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
Ken
Is there any component designation?? Such as "F1" stamped on the
board? Sometimes such a designation can tell you what the component is.
Is there any marking on the component? That also could tell you what
it is. Are there any similar components elsewhere on the board? What
is the resistance across other components of the same type compared to
this one?
Fred
news:3jv7k654r4j25nunq...@4ax.com:
> Cheers, T i m
>
Get a competent technician to take the laptop apart and resolder all the
connections between the power jack and the circuit board it is SUPPOSED
to be soldered to. They get a hairline crack in the solder because
that's the only thing holding the connector to the board. These cracks
can be so thin you need a jeweler's loupe to see them, if you find them
at all.
Resoldering the connector to the board fixes the problem.
The competent technician will, of course, load test her AC power supply
before tearing into the computer, bending and pulling hard on the plug at
the computer end to make sure the wires inside the plug and cable have
not been broken, another common source of intermittent power, but you did
say it was powering the computer so that's probably not the problem.
There is a switch telling the computer the power supply is plugged in on
many models moved by the power supply plug and that switch's connections
may be intermittent.
T i m
>T i m <ne...@spaced.me.uk> wrote in
>news:3jv7k654r4j25nunq...@4ax.com:
>
>> Cheers, T i m
>>
>
>Get a competent technician to take the laptop apart and resolder all the
>connections between the power jack and the circuit board it is SUPPOSED
>to be soldered to.
We only have access to an aging ex BT trained Electronics Service Tech
here <g> and he carefully removed the old and replaced with new the
power socket. FWIW the original socket was showing no signs of damage
whatsoever and all 8 of it's pins were still nicely soldered to the
board.
>They get a hairline crack in the solder because
>that's the only thing holding the connector to the board.
Understood and board cracks were seen many a time on Plessy made
modules that made up the std 300 Baud BT PSTN modem sub modules back
in the day (Modulator unit, demodulator unit, filter unit, control
unit and PSU unit etc). GEC, STC and Marconi generally used fibreglass
boards so were much stronger so less prone to cracking.
> These cracks
>can be so thin you need a jeweler's loupe to see them, if you find them
>at all.
Understood and that's exactly what I was viewing them through (I used
am illuminated magnifier when I was de soldering and cleaning).
>
>Resoldering the connector to the board fixes the problem.
Not in this case though I'm afraid but also has for me on many
occasion (there were 5 different sockets in the last batch I ordered).
>
>The competent technician will, of course, load test her AC power supply
>before tearing into the computer, bending and pulling hard on the plug at
>the computer end to make sure the wires inside the plug and cable have
>not been broken, another common source of intermittent power,
Yup and done.
>say it was powering the computer so that's probably not the problem.
Not in this case I don't think and another (supposedly working) PUS
was substituted with no change in the symptoms).
>There is a switch telling the computer the power supply is plugged in on
>many models moved by the power supply plug and that switch's connections
>may be intermittent.
Again, looked for but none found (and if it were within the DC socket,
would have been replaced with the socket).
FWIW it is understood that there were two laptops on a sideboard and
laddos Mum picked up hers and thinking the were free of each other,
'pulled his laptop along a bit'. If that were true (and I have no
reason to think otherwise) I am inclined to thing the most likely
thing that could have happened would be the unusual temporary
disconnection of one of the connections causing a spike or some such
because the plug / socket combo were slightly loose (after two years
or very regular use and daily movement). But they were only slightly
loose (I use and have seen much worse myself) so I'm not sure.
We will see (hopefully).
Cheers, T i m
T i m
>> http://www.deliran.net/refrence/Inspiron_1545/Inspiron_1545_eng/td_fan.htm
>>
>> You can just see the charger board under the system board top left.
>> Luckily it looks like you can get to the back of the socket and
>> 'device' with the thing mostly in one piece. Soo, if I measure a
>> voltage on one side of said device and not the other (with battery in
>> and charger in an on) /and/ it looks like it's wired in series with
>> the power socket it would most likely be a fuse?
>
> Is there any component designation?? Such as "F1" stamped on the
>board? Sometimes such a designation can tell you what the component is.
Understood but to be honest, whilst I was generally (subconsciously
even) looking out for anything untoward I wasn't looking for that
level of issue at the time (I was in 'let's change this socket and
hope the laptop still works afterwards').
> Is there any marking on the component? That also could tell you what
>it is. Are there any similar components elsewhere on the board? What
>is the resistance across other components of the same type compared to
>this one?
All good questions and when he's available next we will look at it
closer and with the DMM. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
Adrian C
>
> I'm not sure how I glean points there and whatever it is I'm not sure
> I could do so in Vietnamese (even with Google translate).
>
> Frustratingly close though ...
>
> Cheers, T i m
>
The first link from the google search is hidden until you register - no
points required though it takes you through to a 4shared server to
download it.
Anyway sod that, I've got it now - it's a 1MB file called 'Roberts-dr1.pdf'.
Is your email addy valid Tim?
--
Adrian C
T i m
wrote:
>On 30/01/2011 00:59, T i m wrote:
>>
>> I'm not sure how I glean points there and whatever it is I'm not sure
>> I could do so in Vietnamese (even with Google translate).
>>
>> Frustratingly close though ...
>>
>> Cheers, T i m
>>
>
>The first link from the google search is hidden until you register - no
>points required though it takes you through to a 4shared server to
>download it.
Ah, ok.
>
>Anyway sod that, I've got it now - it's a 1MB file called 'Roberts-dr1.pdf'.
Good lad. ;-)
>
>Is your email addy valid Tim?
It is indeed. I owe you one.
Cheers, T i m
Adrian C
>> Is your email addy valid Tim?
>
> It is indeed. I owe you one.
>
> Cheers, T i m
Check your mail :)
--
Adrian C
Baron
> Yesterday, thinking it /could/ be a socket and where the tiny inner /
> 3rd pin connects (thinking it might be a 'sense' wire and a socket was
> cheap etc) I changed it for him but again, no improvement.
That third wire the centre pin, is a one wire data interface ! The idea
is to prevent you from using a charger that is/was not supplied by the
manufacturer. Its quite possible that since the laptop works happily
from the charger, that the communications inside the laptop charging
circuits has been damaged. The charger board and the mainboard come as
a pair. A salvaged charger board will not work with a different
mainboard.
HTH
> Cheers, T i m
--
Best Regards:
Baron.
T i m
<baron....@linuxmaniac.nospam.net> wrote:
>T i m Inscribed thus:
>
>> Yesterday, thinking it /could/ be a socket and where the tiny inner /
>> 3rd pin connects (thinking it might be a 'sense' wire and a socket was
>> cheap etc) I changed it for him but again, no improvement.
>
>That third wire the centre pin, is a one wire data interface !
Ah.
> The idea
>is to prevent you from using a charger that is/was not supplied by the
>manufacturer.
So this is how it 'knows' it's a 65W or 90W charger and that a genuine
one is present etc?
> Its quite possible that since the laptop works happily
>from the charger, that the communications inside the laptop charging
>circuits has been damaged.
I guess anything is possible with that level of 'intelligence. ;-(
> The charger board and the mainboard come as
>a pair. A salvaged charger board will not work with a different
>mainboard.
Great (not). ;-(
>
>HTH
It has (thanks), in so far as we needn't waste any money on just a
charger board.
So, unless we can pick up a working system / charger board pair we
have a mains only laptop. ;-(
Cheers, T i m
bz
4ax.com:
The laptop 'talks' to the power supply over the central lead (there is a
small computer IN the supply or a resistor that tells the computer the
wattage of the supply).
If that center lead is broken, the computer can run from the supply but
will not allow the battery to charge.
The flashing power indicator usually indicates a failing or failed battery
pack.
I have fixed many 'bad' supplies by cutting the 'broken' spot out of the
cord.
It is usually where the cord gets the most flexing.
finding it, cutting and splicing the cord to fix it can be challenging.
I usually cut a few inches from the power plug and check with an ohm meter.
If I was lucky, that is the end and some work with a razor knife, soldering
iron and hot glue and you are back working.
If it is at the power brick end, you will probably have to crack the brick
open with a screwdriver and solder the cord into the brick.
Sometimes, I end up with repairs at both ends and a cord that is much
shorter, in between.
Hint for all laptop supply users:
NEVER NEVER NEVER wrap the cord tightly around the supply, bending it
sharply near where it exits the supply.
Coil it loosely and let it look messy.
NEVER NEVE NEVER put a aharp bend in the cord near the plug nor near the
brick.
>
>
>
T i m
<bz+n...@ch100-5.chem.lsu.edu> wrote:
>> We tried another battery and psu from a different 1545 (that had a
>> broken DC socket) but that didn't change anything.
>>
>The laptop 'talks' to the power supply over the central lead (there is a
>small computer IN the supply or a resistor that tells the computer the
>wattage of the supply).
OK, I guessed it did something clever like that (or I'm not sure how
else it could 'know').
>If that center lead is broken, the computer can run from the supply but
>will not allow the battery to charge.
OK.
>
>The flashing power indicator usually indicates a failing or failed battery
>pack.
Well I'd say it's not yer typical 'flashing' (I have seen that too)
but what looks like more of a fault code.
>
>I have fixed many 'bad' supplies by cutting the 'broken' spot out of the
>cord.
Same here, even if only ass an experiment or a kludge for myself.
>It is usually where the cord gets the most flexing.
Same with most flexy cables. I've salvaged a good few Dyson cleaners
for no more that lopping 3" off the lead at the cleaner end. One was
at the plug end though so that DC05 cost me 50p for a plug (cleaner
was off Freecycle). ;-)
>
>finding it, cutting and splicing the cord to fix it can be challenging.
Bread and butter to me luckily (I built / ran a mobile disco for 8
years).
>
>I usually cut a few inches from the power plug and check with an ohm meter.
>If I was lucky, that is the end and some work with a razor knife, soldering
>iron and hot glue and you are back working.
Yup. A bit of a push-n-a-wiggle will highlight a lot of problems. ;-)
>If it is at the power brick end, you will probably have to crack the brick
>open with a screwdriver and solder the cord into the brick.
Done that as well. Neat hacksaw cut along the seam normally gets you
pretty close.
>
>Sometimes, I end up with repairs at both ends and a cord that is much
>shorter, in between.
;-)
>
>Hint for all laptop supply users:
>NEVER NEVER NEVER wrap the cord tightly around the supply, bending it
>sharply near where it exits the supply.
>Coil it loosely and let it look messy.
Seconded. The number of times I see that being done. Apart from
knowing what it can do to the conductors it's not 'seamanlike (same
with those who coil rope round their hand and elbow).
>
>NEVER NEVE NEVER put a aharp bend in the cord near the plug nor near the
>brick.
Yup, loose coil leaving it as straight as possible then coil (although
I should imagine / hope that was egg sucking training to many here).
bz
....
> Yup, loose coil leaving it as straight as possible then coil (although
> I should imagine / hope that was egg sucking training to many here).
> ;-)
Yep, but newbies sometimes find the threads via google while researching
their problems.
"Pointing out the obvious" is often done 'for their benefit'.
>
> Cheers, T i m
>
Likewise and best regards.
-bz-
Baron
> On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 19:30:28 +0000, Baron
> <baron....@linuxmaniac.nospam.net> wrote:
>
>>T i m Inscribed thus:
>>
>>> Yesterday, thinking it /could/ be a socket and where the tiny inner
>>> / 3rd pin connects (thinking it might be a 'sense' wire and a socket
>>> was cheap etc) I changed it for him but again, no improvement.
>>
>>That third wire the centre pin, is a one wire data interface !
>
> Ah.
>
>> The idea
>>is to prevent you from using a charger that is/was not supplied by the
>>manufacturer.
>
> So this is how it 'knows' it's a 65W or 90W charger and that a genuine
> one is present etc?
Yep !
Also notice that most, if not all, manufacturers are moving in that
direction. I'm surprised that it hasn't happened that way on desktop
machines.
>> Its quite possible that since the laptop works happily
>>from the charger, that the communications inside the laptop charging
>>circuits has been damaged.
>
> I guess anything is possible with that level of 'intelligence. ;-(
>> The charger board and the mainboard come as a pair. A salvaged
>> charger board will not work with a different mainboard.
>
> Great (not). ;-(
I agree its not nice.
>>HTH
>
> It has (thanks), in so far as we needn't waste any money on just a
> charger board.
>
> So, unless we can pick up a working system / charger board pair we
> have a mains only laptop. ;-(
>
> Cheers, T i m
Its a very crafty way of preventing non-authorised repair agents from
fixing kit on the cheap.
--
Best Regards:
Baron.
Baron
> I have fixed many 'bad' supplies by cutting the 'broken' spot out of
> the cord. It is usually where the cord gets the most flexing.
>
> finding it, cutting and splicing the cord to fix it can be
> challenging.
>
> I usually cut a few inches from the power plug and check with an ohm
> meter. If I was lucky, that is the end and some work with a razor
> knife, soldering iron and hot glue and you are back working.
> If it is at the power brick end, you will probably have to crack the
> brick open with a screwdriver and solder the cord into the brick.
>
> Sometimes, I end up with repairs at both ends and a cord that is much
> shorter, in between.
Just a note: In the UK its not allowed/legal to do a repair where the
integrity of the repaired item, in this case, the PSU is compromised
such that it could be a hazard to health.
The PSU/brick case is welded together in order to prevent any attempt to
repair it. Making a joint in the cable feeding the appliance is not
considered safe.
Replacing the power connector on the end of the cable, if you can get
one, would be allowed. Unfortunately the manufactures have gone to
great lengths to prevent these from being available from any source.
> Hint for all laptop supply users:
> NEVER NEVER NEVER wrap the cord tightly around the supply, bending it
> sharply near where it exits the supply.
> Coil it loosely and let it look messy.
>
> NEVER NEVE NEVER put a aharp bend in the cord near the plug nor near
> the brick.
I second these last comments !
--
Best Regards:
Baron.
Meat Plow
> T i m Inscribed thus:
>
>> On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 19:30:28 +0000, Baron
>> <baron....@linuxmaniac.nospam.net> wrote:
>>
>>>T i m Inscribed thus:
>>>
>>>> Yesterday, thinking it /could/ be a socket and where the tiny inner /
>>>> 3rd pin connects (thinking it might be a 'sense' wire and a socket
>>>> was cheap etc) I changed it for him but again, no improvement.
>>>
>>>That third wire the centre pin, is a one wire data interface !
>>
>> Ah.
>>
>>> The idea
>>>is to prevent you from using a charger that is/was not supplied by the
>>>manufacturer.
>>
>> So this is how it 'knows' it's a 65W or 90W charger and that a genuine
>> one is present etc?
>
> Yep !
> Also notice that most, if not all, manufacturers are moving in that
> direction. I'm surprised that it hasn't happened that way on desktop
> machines.
The 3rd pin on a traditional Dell 19vdc 4500mah is a dummy. I'm using one
on an Asus laptop that had the same requirements. Only thing you need to
watch is using an underrated PSU as you probably will overtax it. Having
more power capacity isn't an issue for obvious reasons. I'm also using an
HP 19vdc supply on a Toshiby. All these have similar CPU configurations
and requirements within +- 10%.
T i m
<mhy...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>The 3rd pin on a traditional Dell 19vdc 4500mah is a dummy.
The plot thickens!
> I'm using one
>on an Asus laptop that had the same requirements.
I'd have to say once I've checked the plug / socket fit, polarity and
current rating I have also done a bit of mix-n-match with no ill
effects (that I know of course).
>Only thing you need to
>watch is using an underrated PSU as you probably will overtax it.
Daughters old Dell Latitude D520 came to me with a genuine Dell PSU
but possibly the lower rated one of the two (65W V 90W etc?). Wouldn't
these power supplies be current limited to their maximum continuous
rated output so apart from it running hot, shouldn't put them outside
their design parameters?
Wouldn't less current being available at the charger just mean the
laptop takes longer to charge, or not power the laptop and a dock and
an aux battery etc?
> Having
>more power capacity isn't an issue for obvious reasons.
Indeed and would be my preferred scenario.
>I'm also using an
>HP 19vdc supply on a Toshiby. All these have similar CPU configurations
>and requirements within +- 10%.
Daughters D520 stopped charging the main battery but seems to still
charge the aux battery (in the CD bay) ok.
So, I picked up another battery that seems to power the thing ok but
still isn't charging, presumably pointing to the charger or charging
circuitry in the laptop itself (that charger was supporting both
batteries for a year or so).
I have ordered a Targus universal (90W) charger in any case (for
general use) so can use that to see if it's the charger at least (data
pins permitting etc). ;-(
Cheers, T i m
Meat Plow
I don't know for absolute certainty since I've never pushed the envelope
but an underrated laptop PSU is going to work harder than it is designed
to. This rationally leads to a premature failure. Consider the analogy of
an underrated PSU in a desktop computer similar.
T i m
<mhy...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Wouldn't less current being available at the charger just mean the
>> laptop takes longer to charge, or not power the laptop and a dock and an
>> aux battery etc?
>>
>
>I don't know for absolute certainty since I've never pushed the envelope
>but an underrated laptop PSU is going to work harder than it is designed
>to.
That's the bit I'm unsure on. Ok $100 question could be 'are they
short cct protected? Something that limits it's output to a design
maximum can't theoretically be 'overloaded' can it?
> This rationally leads to a premature failure.
Whilst I'm sure you are right in many things I'm not (yet) sure it's
always the case with all these things. ;-)
> Consider the analogy of
>an underrated PSU in a desktop computer similar.
Other than the load on a desktop PSU is a direct thing whereas the
load on a laptop PSU may depend on what it's doing at the time. ie,
Charging and running, or just running etc. I have noticed that on many
battery powered devices it often says it will take longer to charge
the battery if the device is turned on at the time. Is this down to
the heat of running the device /and/ charging the battery or the fact
the chargers can't generally do both to full power?
As I said, I'm not advocating an underrated PSU for anything, just
that there could be 'nearly enough to do it all and cope ok', 'enough
to do it all' and 'more than enough' (and let's hope there aren't any
shorts on here). ;-)
Cheers, T i m
p.s. Daughters (technically) 'smaller than it could take' PSU only
ever runs warm. The one powering our TV runs much hotter.
T i m
<baron....@linuxmaniac.nospam.net> wrote:
>
>Just a note: In the UK its not allowed/legal to do a repair where the
>integrity of the repaired item, in this case, the PSU is compromised
>such that it could be a hazard to health.
>
>The PSU/brick case is welded together in order to prevent any attempt to
>repair it. Making a joint in the cable feeding the appliance is not
>considered safe.
>
>Replacing the power connector on the end of the cable, if you can get
>one, would be allowed. Unfortunately the manufactures have gone to
>great lengths to prevent these from being available from any source.
Update:
A replacement primary battery came today for daughters Latitude D520
and when I fitted it the BIOS Battery Info screen when from 'not
installed' (empty bay or with the old battery fitted) to 'Discharging'
with the new battery so that was something. ;-)
Then I found a faulty 90W Dell adaptor I had kicking about and when I
powered it up it made a noise like it was trying but didn't light the
LED nor put any voltage on the output plug. With both daughters and
this charger disconnected from the mains and after insuring there was
no output voltage I measured the output resistance on both and found
the 'dead' one to be shorted (good one about 200 ohms).
With nothing to lose I carefully cut it open the duff adaptor and
after a bit of experimenting concluded the short was in the cable as
it exits the power brick. With a decent iron and de soldering pump I
removed the iffy output lead, trimmed it a few inches shorter and re
heat-shrunk and connected the cables. I put it back in it's case,
taped it up and powered it up, LED on and 19V on the output. ;-)
Plugged it into the D520, "AC Adaptor = 90W' and the primary battery
status changed to 'Charging'. ;-)
So the D520 looked like it had two faults, a dead primary battery and
faulty ID function (I'll check that one out tomorrow). It also seems
the modular bay battery isn't so fussy about the PSU and has been
charging and working ok.
We then tried the same 'test' PSU in daughters b/fs not-charging
Inspiron 1545 and it also now detects the charger but didn't seem to
want to start to charge. He says the battery had about 2hrs life
before it stopped charging. A mate has a 1545 so we will try his
battery in this one before doing anything further.
I'll provide another update as / when we know anything on that.
As the round plug from the D520 adaptor fits the octagonal socket on
the 1545 I may get a pair of genuine Dell 90W adaptors with round
plugs as they can both use either.
Thanks again to all those who have offered help / feedback on this so
far.
Cheers, T i m
Baron
T i m Inscribed thus:
> Update:
>
> A replacement primary battery came today for daughters Latitude D520
> and when I fitted it the BIOS Battery Info screen when from 'not
> installed' (empty bay or with the old battery fitted) to 'Discharging'
> with the new battery so that was something. ;-)
Sounds like the protection circuits in the battery killed the feed to
charge it. If you decide to investigate you will probably find that
one or more cells has died.
> Then I found a faulty 90W Dell adaptor I had kicking about and when I
> powered it up it made a noise like it was trying but didn't light the
> LED nor put any voltage on the output plug. With both daughters and
> this charger disconnected from the mains and after insuring there was
> no output voltage I measured the output resistance on both and found
> the 'dead' one to be shorted (good one about 200 ohms).
That sounds right for a good adaptor.
> With nothing to lose I carefully cut it open the duff adaptor and
> after a bit of experimenting concluded the short was in the cable as
> it exits the power brick. With a decent iron and de soldering pump I
> removed the iffy output lead, trimmed it a few inches shorter and re
> heat-shrunk and connected the cables. I put it back in it's case,
> taped it up and powered it up, LED on and 19V on the output. ;-)
Sounds good ! I bet you've done this before... ;-)
> Plugged it into the D520, "AC Adaptor = 90W' and the primary battery
> status changed to 'Charging'. ;-)
>
> So the D520 looked like it had two faults, a dead primary battery and
> faulty ID function (I'll check that one out tomorrow). It also seems
> the modular bay battery isn't so fussy about the PSU and has been
> charging and working ok.
Yea, a result !
> We then tried the same 'test' PSU in daughters b/fs not-charging
> Inspiron 1545 and it also now detects the charger but didn't seem to
> want to start to charge. He says the battery had about 2hrs life
> before it stopped charging. A mate has a 1545 so we will try his
> battery in this one before doing anything further.
>
> I'll provide another update as / when we know anything on that.
Thanks for this update ! Its nice to know.
> As the round plug from the D520 adaptor fits the octagonal socket on
> the 1545 I may get a pair of genuine Dell 90W adaptors with round
> plugs as they can both use either.
>
> Thanks again to all those who have offered help / feedback on this so
> far.
>
> Cheers, T i m
--
Best Regards:
Baron.
T i m
<baron....@linuxmaniac.nospam.net> wrote:
>> A replacement primary battery came today for daughters Latitude D520
>> and when I fitted it the BIOS Battery Info screen when from 'not
>> installed' (empty bay or with the old battery fitted) to 'Discharging'
>> with the new battery so that was something. ;-)
>
>Sounds like the protection circuits in the battery killed the feed to
>charge it. If you decide to investigate you will probably find that
>one or more cells has died.
OK, now we are back online with a new battery I may well have a closer
look. I understand it wasn't lasting very long before it failed but
the presence of the modular battery masked it a bit.
>
<snip>
>> I put it back in it's case,
>> taped it up and powered it up, LED on and 19V on the output. ;-)
>
>Sounds good ! I bet you've done this before... ;-)
Indeed, with all sorts of stuff (I feel if it's already 'broken' you
have little to lose). I have always got more fun out of fixing
something then using it than just going out and buying it / a new one.
<Mutter> years ago I designed, built and ran my own mobile disco (for
my own pleasure really <g>). 1.5kw 3 way stereo PA, console with
mixer, 8 channel light sequencer (before you could easily buy such
things), strobe and all the speaker cabs etc. I drove it about in a
Morris Minor van that I bought for £25 and put another gearbox in at
the car park where I bought it before I could drive it home. ;-) [1]
>
>> Plugged it into the D520, "AC Adaptor = 90W' and the primary battery
>> status changed to 'Charging'. ;-)
>>
>> So the D520 looked like it had two faults, a dead primary battery and
>> faulty ID function (I'll check that one out tomorrow). It also seems
>> the modular bay battery isn't so fussy about the PSU and has been
>> charging and working ok.
>
>Yea, a result !
A result indeed <g>. She likes the D520 and was happy to carry on with
it even as it was. We /could/ get her something else but this laptop
does have a nice substantial feel to it so we are all happy it's fully
working again. [2] The replacement battery ran for 3 hours this
morning and the modular battery is at least 80% good.
>
>> We then tried the same 'test' PSU in daughters b/fs not-charging
>> Inspiron 1545 and it also now detects the charger but didn't seem to
>> want to start to charge. He says the battery had about 2hrs life
>> before it stopped charging. A mate has a 1545 so we will try his
>> battery in this one before doing anything further.
>>
>> I'll provide another update as / when we know anything on that.
>
>Thanks for this update ! Its nice to know.
My pleasure. So, we took his laptop to my mates PC show and were lucky
to have the chance to try all different combinations of laptop,
battery and charger.
The first smile was to see a known good battery and charger in his
lappy charging AOk (so all the charging circuitry was ok <phew>). The
second was later back at home when my multifunction charger arrived
from eBay and was 'seen' by the Dells as a 90W adaptor. The cherry on
the cake was when he left the Targus connected and after about an hour
mentioned that his presumed 'dead' battery was now showing 14% charge.
Left it slowly rose to 100% and he's currently running it down and has
run about 40 mins with 20 left.
>
I' thin opened the original chargers for both machines and both had
broken data wires at the plug end. I have 3 on their way at a fiver
each and if they work they will be cheap genuine chargers. ;-)
I found this very interesting on Youtube (very well put together as
well):
http://preview.tinyurl.com/5r8rl79
We picked up a clone Dell charger that seems to advertise it's a 150W
device (it isn't, it's a 90W). Maybe someone found a batch of unwanted
chips or thought that responding with '150W' would make more kit
happy?
Cheers, T i m
[1] My most recent challenge was a 13 month old Zanussi washing
machine I picked up on Freecycle. It had been written off by the
insurance Co with failed bearings as not being economical to repair
because the drum was in a /sealed/ plastic tub. I was also told by all
the whitegoods gurus that it was a lost cause but it's still running
very well some 18 months later. <weg>
[2] The screen feels a bit floppy on the hinges so I'd like to check
that out and I'm going to fit a new power socket before she takes it
back up to Scotland (400 miles away).
baron
> On Thu, 03 Feb 2011 20:51:06 +0000, Baron
You sound a bit like someone else I used to know.
He did something similar... with a van.
> I' then opened the original chargers for both machines and both had
> broken data wires at the plug end. I have 3 on their way at a fiver
> each and if they work they will be cheap genuine chargers. ;-)
I presume you mean the chargers and not the plugs for them.
I've yet to find a source for the 3 wire plug.
> I found this very interesting on Youtube (very well put together as
> well):
>
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/5r8rl79
I agree ! very interesting. It answers a couple of questions.
> We picked up a clone Dell charger that seems to advertise it's a 150W
> device (it isn't, it's a 90W). Maybe someone found a batch of unwanted
> chips or thought that responding with '150W' would make more kit
> happy?
Sounds like someone has doctored the unit.
> Cheers, T i m
>
> [1] My most recent challenge was a 13 month old Zanussi washing
> machine I picked up on Freecycle. It had been written off by the
> insurance Co with failed bearings as not being economical to repair
> because the drum was in a /sealed/ plastic tub. I was also told by all
> the whitegoods gurus that it was a lost cause but it's still running
> very well some 18 months later. <weg>
Those washing machines with the plastic tubs are quite straight forward
to replace the bearings in. In fact I may still have a repair kit or
two kicking around.
> [2] The screen feels a bit floppy on the hinges so I'd like to check
> that out and I'm going to fit a new power socket before she takes it
> back up to Scotland (400 miles away).
The hinges are a weak point. Check the screws and make sure that they
are tight. If I recall there are three screws in each hinge bracket.
Take Care. The wind is wicked at the moment.
--
Best Regards:
Baron.
T i m
<baron....@linuxmaniac.nospam.net> wrote:
>> I' then opened the original chargers for both machines and both had
>> broken data wires at the plug end. I have 3 on their way at a fiver
>> each and if they work they will be cheap genuine chargers. ;-)
>
>I presume you mean the chargers and not the plugs for them.
Sorry no, the output lead, strain relief bush and Dell 3 way tubular
plug.
>I've yet to find a source for the 3 wire plug.
That's what I first looked for but took the lead assay as it probably
wouldn't have been much in it price wise. Ordered yesterday, arrived
today and I'm going in .... ;-)
>
>> I found this very interesting on Youtube (very well put together as
>> well):
>>
>> http://preview.tinyurl.com/5r8rl79
>
>I agree ! very interesting. It answers a couple of questions.
I guess if it's easy to implement (one wire and two legs at the
charger end) and cheap then I can see why they might.
>
>> We picked up a clone Dell charger that seems to advertise it's a 150W
>> device (it isn't, it's a 90W). Maybe someone found a batch of unwanted
>> chips or thought that responding with '150W' would make more kit
>> happy?
>
>Sounds like someone has doctored the unit.
It's a clone so who knows. [1]
>
>> [1] My most recent challenge was a 13 month old Zanussi washing
>> machine I picked up on Freecycle. It had been written off by the
>> insurance Co with failed bearings as not being economical to repair
>> because the drum was in a /sealed/ plastic tub. I was also told by all
>> the whitegoods gurus that it was a lost cause but it's still running
>> very well some 18 months later. <weg>
>
>Those washing machines with the plastic tubs are quite straight forward
>to replace the bearings in. In fact I may still have a repair kit or
>two kicking around.
Erm, plastic tubs yes, sealed (as in welded into one piece in the
factory) I believe less so. /IF/ you could get the drum out through
the mouth of the tub you would be ok but on these you can't.
Ironically the tub halves (front and back) were actually designed to
be bolted together with a gasket / seal but some bright spark
suggested they could save 10 screws, a seal and assembly time to they
were welded together after that. The typical 'repair' would be two new
tub halves, the screws, seal (the bearings you were going to replace
anyway) and I understand, different suspension mountings, hence the
write-off (at 13 months).
>
>> [2] The screen feels a bit floppy on the hinges so I'd like to check
>> that out and I'm going to fit a new power socket before she takes it
>> back up to Scotland (400 miles away).
>
>The hinges are a weak point. Check the screws and make sure that they
>are tight. If I recall there are three screws in each hinge bracket.
Noted.
>
>Take Care. The wind is wicked at the moment.
It is indeed and that seems to have blown daughter and b/f some work
back up in Scotland as they are both tree surgeons. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
[1] Enthused with the progress on these two machines I've picked up a
mates daughters Dell Studio 1535 that had a failed charger a while
back. We bought a replacement charger that I can now prove isn't fully
'Dell compatible' (no chip etc) but they bought a replacement battery
from eBay but that never worked. When you turn it on with the
replacement battery it says:
"Warning: The battery cannot be identified.
This system will be unable to charge this battery"
With the original battery in it says:
"This battery has experienced a permanent failure and needs to be
replaced".
I've since ordered an external charger that should be ok for most of
the Dell batteries so at least I can prove if it's the battery or the
laptop.
Baron
> Erm, plastic tubs yes, sealed (as in welded into one piece in the
> factory) I believe less so. /IF/ you could get the drum out through
> the mouth of the tub you would be ok but on these you can't.
> Ironically the tub halves (front and back) were actually designed to
> be bolted together with a gasket / seal but some bright spark
> suggested they could save 10 screws, a seal and assembly time to they
> were welded together after that. The typical 'repair' would be two new
> tub halves, the screws, seal (the bearings you were going to replace
> anyway) and I understand, different suspension mountings, hence the
> write-off (at 13 months).
Mmm. The ones I was thinking about have a series of metal spring clips
around the perimeter of the tub. The bearings are essentially clamped
in place between the lip on the inner side and a plate on the other
with the shaft and pulley, its retaining bolt holding the lot together.
>>> [2] The screen feels a bit floppy on the hinges so I'd like to check
>>> that out and I'm going to fit a new power socket before she takes it
>>> back up to Scotland (400 miles away).
>>
>>The hinges are a weak point. Check the screws and make sure that they
>>are tight. If I recall there are three screws in each hinge bracket.
>
> Noted.
>>
>>Take Care. The wind is wicked at the moment.
>
> It is indeed and that seems to have blown daughter and b/f some work
> back up in Scotland as they are both tree surgeons. ;-)
>
> Cheers, T i m
At least something good from the destruction caused by the wind.
> [1] Enthused with the progress on these two machines I've picked up a
> mates daughters Dell Studio 1535 that had a failed charger a while
> back. We bought a replacement charger that I can now prove isn't fully
> 'Dell compatible' (no chip etc) but they bought a replacement battery
> from eBay but that never worked. When you turn it on with the
> replacement battery it says:
>
> "Warning: The battery cannot be identified.
> This system will be unable to charge this battery"
>
> With the original battery in it says:
>
> "This battery has experienced a permanent failure and needs to be
> replaced".
>
> I've since ordered an external charger that should be ok for most of
> the Dell batteries so at least I can prove if it's the battery or the
> laptop.
They put these "one wire" interfaces into the batteries too !
I've have cheap Chinese made ones that wont charge in a Dell !
Which sounds a bit like the one you refer to above.
--
Best Regards:
Baron.
T i m
<baron....@linuxmaniac.nospam.net> wrote:
>> Erm, plastic tubs yes, sealed (as in welded into one piece in the
>> factory) I believe less so. /IF/ you could get the drum out through
>> the mouth of the tub you would be ok but on these you can't.
<snip>
>
>Mmm. The ones I was thinking about have a series of metal spring clips
>around the perimeter of the tub. The bearings are essentially clamped
>in place between the lip on the inner side and a plate on the other
>with the shaft and pulley, its retaining bolt holding the lot together.
Ah no. Inner bearing fits up against the drum and into rear bearing
mount from the front. Outer bearing from the outside held in place by
the belt drive wheel and a nylock nut (bearing construction similar to
a car road wheel hub etc).
>
>> It is indeed and that seems to have blown daughter and b/f some work
>> back up in Scotland as they are both tree surgeons. ;-)
>>
>At least something good from the destruction caused by the wind.
Well, yes, I guess. Still not nice to profit from the miseries of
others but there is still some 'good work' that can be done (clearing
side roads / tracks / paths etc). When they were on their way back up
last time the bridge was being washed away at Cockermouth. ;-(
>
<snip>
>>
>> I've since ordered an external charger that should be ok for most of
>> the Dell batteries so at least I can prove if it's the battery or the
>> laptop.
>
>They put these "one wire" interfaces into the batteries too !
No, really? ;-(
>
>I've have cheap Chinese made ones that wont charge in a Dell !
>Which sounds a bit like the one you refer to above.
It does indeed. However, after Googling about it seems there may be
some hope in a BIOS update? It's currently A2 and I think there is an
A5 or 6 to be had. I just need a charged battery in there to do it.
I've ordered an external charger as I'm told the pinout of most of the
Dell batteries are the same (so it will cover a fair range of models
and we have a few between us) in case I can't access another machine
or a charged battery elsewhere.
Might as well do the easy / non-invasive things first. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
Baron
>>> I've since ordered an external charger that should be ok for most of
>>> the Dell batteries so at least I can prove if it's the battery or
>>> the laptop.
>>
>>They put these "one wire" interfaces into the batteries too !
>
> No, really? ;-(
So I understand.
>>I've had cheap Chinese made ones that wont charge in a Dell !
>>Which sounds a bit like the one you refer to above.
>
> It does indeed. However, after Googling about it seems there may be
> some hope in a BIOS update? It's currently A2 and I think there is an
> A5 or 6 to be had. I just need a charged battery in there to do it.
> I've ordered an external charger as I'm told the pinout of most of the
> Dell batteries are the same
Yes but they put the connector block in different places on the battery
pack ! You will have to let me know how it goes.
> (so it will cover a fair range of models
> and we have a few between us) in case I can't access another machine
> or a charged battery elsewhere.
>
> Might as well do the easy / non-invasive things first. ;-)
>
> Cheers, T i m
I couldn't agree more.
--
Best Regards:
Baron.
T i m
<baron....@linuxmaniac.nospam.net> wrote:
>>>They put these "one wire" interfaces into the batteries too !
>>
>> No, really? ;-(
>
>So I understand.
Ok ta. I've asked on the Dell n/g if anyone can confirm if this
particular model / generation does so for sure, just in case it could
be summat else.
>
>>>I've had cheap Chinese made ones that wont charge in a Dell !
>>>Which sounds a bit like the one you refer to above.
>>
>> It does indeed. However, after Googling about it seems there may be
>> some hope in a BIOS update? It's currently A2 and I think there is an
>> A5 or 6 to be had. I just need a charged battery in there to do it.
>> I've ordered an external charger as I'm told the pinout of most of the
>> Dell batteries are the same
>
>Yes but they put the connector block in different places on the battery
>pack !
Yeahbut this charger is what I would call more of a tech / service aid
as the charging plug is floating on the end of a wire and (can be)
held against the battery with a Velcro tie. This morning I used it to
charge the battery from the Studio 1535 (and therefore was able to
apply the BIOS update) and currently I'm seeing if it can wake up the
old battery from daughter D510 Latitude (only to see if I / it can,
I'm pretty sure it's pretty low capacity now).
> You will have to let me know how it goes.
So far I'd say pretty well, insofar as it has allowed me to update the
BIOS and prove an unknown battery to be good even if not compatible
with the laptop. ;-(
>
>> (so it will cover a fair range of models
>> and we have a few between us) in case I can't access another machine
>> or a charged battery elsewhere.
>>
>> Might as well do the easy / non-invasive things first. ;-)
>>
>
>I couldn't agree more.
This 1 Wire stuff may well be there for good reason (?) but when
charging up old laptops with basic two wire connections and NiCd/NiMH
they just charge, even if they only last for 5 mins (enough time to
act like a UPS). If they don't a bench PSU might get you started ...
<sigh>
I'm now looking to see if I can borrow a battery for the 1535 before I
suggested they buy 'another/ batter but at least this time we will
know what questions to ask. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
p.s. I was wondering just how the original Dell battery declared
itself 'dead' and therefore, if I was to re-cell the original with the
cells from the clone, will it be happy (or have the electronics now
shut down for good)?
Jim Yanik
maybe it's better to buy generic laptops instead of name brands,and then
you can use generic chargers and battery packs.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
T i m
wrote:
>> p.s. I was wondering just how the original Dell battery declared
>> itself 'dead' and therefore, if I was to re-cell the original with the
>> cells from the clone, will it be happy (or have the electronics now
>> shut down for good)?
>>
>
>maybe it's better to buy generic laptops instead of name brands,and then
>you can use generic chargers and battery packs.
Assuming they all aren't going that way as has been suggested then yes
I guess it would.
FWIW the only laptop I have ever bought new was a Compaq Contura and I
think that may have been a 386. The rest were mostly given to me
(broken) or sold cheap (low spec or with known faults) etc.
Daughters Dell Latitude came the cheap way (mate buys laptops by the
pallet) with an unknown BIOS password but £20 and t'internet had that
sorted. ;-)
Daughters b/f bought the Dell Inspiron 1545 new as did the owner of
the Studio 1535 I'm looking at now and in light of the current issues
I'm not sure if either would go that way again. However, how could you
tell if a laptop used 'tied' components like this?
Also, I wonder what proportion of laptop buyers go looking for cheap
replacement bits off eBay versus buying them straight off the
manufacturers web site (and therefore never 'seeing the problems')?
IN the case of the Dells I have here atm I'm not sure any of the
issues have said 'This is not a Dell battery / adaptor' but:
"This battery has experienced a permanent failure and needs to be
replaced".
"Warning: The battery cannot be identified.
This system will be unable to charge this battery"
.. and similar with the power adaptors.
So presumably those could still happen whoever's brand sticker was on
the machine itself?
But yes, bring on the 'generic / modular' laptop (so it works more
like desktop clones) where not just things like optical drives can be
swapped between brands (and CPUs, RAM, HDDs etc) but system boards,
chargers and batteries.
But then I have never seen why we need so many different cars, washing
machines, TVs .....
Cheers, T i m
Baron
> On Sat, 05 Feb 2011 21:03:07 +0000, Baron
> <baron....@linuxmaniac.nospam.net> wrote:
>
>>>>They put these "one wire" interfaces into the batteries too !
>>>
>>> No, really? ;-(
>>
>>So I understand.
>
> Ok ta. I've asked on the Dell n/g if anyone can confirm if this
> particular model / generation does so for sure, just in case it could
> be summat else.
Good move !
>>>>I've had cheap Chinese made ones that wont charge in a Dell !
>>>>Which sounds a bit like the one you refer to above.
>>>
>>> It does indeed. However, after Googling about it seems there may be
>>> some hope in a BIOS update? It's currently A2 and I think there is
>>> an A5 or 6 to be had. I just need a charged battery in there to do
>>> it. I've ordered an external charger as I'm told the pinout of most
>>> of the Dell batteries are the same
>>
>>Yes but they put the connector block in different places on the
>>battery pack !
>
> Yeah but this charger is what I would call more of a tech / service
> aid as the charging plug is floating on the end of a wire and (can be)
> held against the battery with a Velcro tie. This morning I used it to
> charge the battery from the Studio 1535 (and therefore was able to
> apply the BIOS update) and currently I'm seeing if it can wake up the
> old battery from daughter D510 Latitude (only to see if I / it can,
> I'm pretty sure it's pretty low capacity now).
Ah. I envisioned a unit that the battery was placed into rather than a
connector on a flying lead. I would be interested in the pin out for
that. :-)
>> You will have to let me know how it goes.
>
> So far I'd say pretty well, insofar as it has allowed me to update the
> BIOS and prove an unknown battery to be good even if not compatible
> with the laptop. ;-(
>>
>>> (so it will cover a fair range of models
>>> and we have a few between us) in case I can't access another machine
>>> or a charged battery elsewhere.
>>>
>>> Might as well do the easy / non-invasive things first. ;-)
>>>
>>
>>I couldn't agree more.
>
> This 1 Wire stuff may well be there for good reason (?) but when
> charging up old laptops with basic two wire connections and NiCd/NiMH
> they just charge, even if they only last for 5 mins (enough time to
> act like a UPS). If they don't a bench PSU might get you started ...
> <sigh>
>
> I'm now looking to see if I can borrow a battery for the 1535 before I
> suggested they buy 'another/ batter but at least this time we will
> know what questions to ask. ;-)
>
> Cheers, T i m
>
> p.s. I was wondering just how the original Dell battery declared
> itself 'dead' and therefore, if I was to re-cell the original with the
> cells from the clone, will it be happy (or have the electronics now
> shut down for good)?
I'm not at all sure ! The battery packs that I've taken apart have not
had, what I would call "dead Cells" ! Usually there is one or two
cells that have very low voltages compared to the others. I have tried
to boost the voltage on the low ones without disconnecting the others,
and found that they recover just fine. Even so the pack still will not
charge though it will power the machine as normal. Beyond that I've
not really had the inclination to investigate further.
As an aside I have a set of recovered cells happily powering an alarm
bell, float charged from the regulated 12V supply.
--
Best Regards:
Baron.
T i m
wrote:
>> Yeah but this charger is what I would call more of a tech / service
>> aid as the charging plug is floating on the end of a wire and (can be)
>> held against the battery with a Velcro tie.
>Ah. I envisioned a unit that the battery was placed into rather than a
>connector on a flying lead.
Understood as that's how yer typical charger works. The fact that this
charger is supposed to cope with near 'all' Dell batteries with the
one connector and many other makes with different connectors made it
all the more interesting. Apparently, if you get the connector on this
model reversed (we were only talking about the Dell batteries at the
time) nothing happens (good or bad). The previous model would release
pixy smoke from somewhere. The guy also ok'd the idea of being able to
supply the different ends as required and as available for about a
fiver each.
When you power it up you get a single red LED on the (sealed) power
'brick'. Plug it into a (good) battery and the 4 green LEDs light up
in sequence then extinguish (2 second cycle). Once the battery reaches
20% the first LED stays on and the remaining 3 cycle etc etc. It took
about 4 hours to bring this 1535 batter from 0% to 90 or so was about
3.5 hours so I imaging the charge current might be quite low (I don't
mind that).
> I would be interested in the pin out for
>that. :-)
Well there is a 4 pin plug that goes into the brick and another 4 pin
bigger connector in the middle of the short lead to the battery plug.
The next time I get the DMM out .. ;-)
Similarly (and as much use I guess) would be the pinout of the cells
to the connector, if I get to pull a pack apart?
>> p.s. I was wondering just how the original Dell battery declared
>> itself 'dead' and therefore, if I was to re-cell the original with the
>> cells from the clone, will it be happy (or have the electronics now
>> shut down for good)?
>
>I'm not at all sure !
Part of my doing all this is because (mostly) I like to understand
what's going on behind the scenes (a classic being that Youtube 1 Wire
power adaptor tutorial).
>The battery packs that I've taken apart have not
>had, what I would call "dead Cells" !
Exactly? ;-(
>Usually there is one or two
>cells that have very low voltages compared to the others.
[1]
> I have tried
>to boost the voltage on the low ones without disconnecting the others,
>and found that they recover just fine.
We would call that 'balancing' in the RC model racing game. ;-)
>Even so the pack still will not
>charge though it will power the machine as normal.
Oh. So there may be summat 'deeper' going on here. Like with some
printers when they reach their nominal max print run limits?
>Beyond that I've
>not really had the inclination to investigate further.
I would if there was some logic and low cost to the process. Like if I
was given a batch of known good cells and a few battery packs to strip
down. Other than that it means a bit of gambling buying new cells and
we aren't really in a position to do too much of that right now.
>
>As an aside I have a set of recovered cells happily powering an alarm
>bell, float charged from the regulated 12V supply.
It can be done, sometimes. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
[1] I have 6 'consumer' NiMH 'D" cells (that feel like they are AAs in
a 'D' size case .... and probably are) and four of them are currently
in our automatic kitchen rubbish bin lid mech. ;-)
I did start going through the 6 cells with Ah measuring recycler but
'she' needed this working. So, as the lid goes flat I'm measuring the
lowest voltage cell and replacing it with a known good one in the hope
I'll end up with the best matched set. ;-)
Jim Yanik
> On Sat, 05 Feb 2011 17:35:58 -0600, Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov>
> wrote:
>
>
>>> p.s. I was wondering just how the original Dell battery declared
>>> itself 'dead' and therefore, if I was to re-cell the original with the
>>> cells from the clone, will it be happy (or have the electronics now
>>> shut down for good)?
>>>
>>
>>maybe it's better to buy generic laptops instead of name brands,and then
>>you can use generic chargers and battery packs.
>
> Assuming they all aren't going that way as has been suggested then yes
> I guess it would.
>
> FWIW the only laptop I have ever bought new was a Compaq Contura and I
> think that may have been a 386. The rest were mostly given to me
> (broken) or sold cheap (low spec or with known faults) etc.
>
> Daughters Dell Latitude came the cheap way (mate buys laptops by the
> pallet) with an unknown BIOS password but �20 and t'internet had that
> sorted. ;-)
>
> Daughters b/f bought the Dell Inspiron 1545 new as did the owner of
> the Studio 1535 I'm looking at now and in light of the current issues
> I'm not sure if either would go that way again. However, how could you
> tell if a laptop used 'tied' components like this?
I don't know.
>
> Also, I wonder what proportion of laptop buyers go looking for cheap
> replacement bits off eBay versus buying them straight off the
> manufacturers web site (and therefore never 'seeing the problems')?
>
> IN the case of the Dells I have here atm I'm not sure any of the
> issues have said 'This is not a Dell battery / adaptor' but:
>
> "This battery has experienced a permanent failure and needs to be
> replaced".
>
> "Warning: The battery cannot be identified.
> This system will be unable to charge this battery"
>
> .. and similar with the power adaptors.
>
> So presumably those could still happen whoever's brand sticker was on
> the machine itself?
>
> But yes, bring on the 'generic / modular' laptop (so it works more
> like desktop clones) where not just things like optical drives can be
> swapped between brands (and CPUs, RAM, HDDs etc) but system boards,
> chargers and batteries.
>
> But then I have never seen why we need so many different cars, washing
> machines, TVs .....
different people want different features.
I prefer small cars that handle well and have "ample accelleration",while
others want armored tanks that ride like boats and seat half a dozen.
>
> Cheers, T i m
>
IMO,those "chipped" suppplies/battery packs are just an effort to
monopolize their products,so you can't use generic chargers or battery
packs and save money.
The "generic" charger or battery pack just has it's internal ID chip
programmed to suit a particular manufacturer,and a "brand name" tag
applied,raising the price and profit margin.
Jim Yanik
> I did start going through the 6 cells with Ah measuring recycler but
> 'she' needed this working. So, as the lid goes flat I'm measuring the
> lowest voltage cell and replacing it with a known good one in the hope
> I'll end up with the best matched set. ;-)
>
>
>
FYI,your "she" is usually referred to as "SWMBO";She Who Must Be Obeyed.
AKA "wife","number one(and only)squeeze","missus",etc.
8-)
Baron
Very definitely SWMBO... or else... ;-)
--
Best Regards:
Baron.
Baron
> IMO,those "chipped" suppplies/battery packs are just an effort to
> monopolize their products,so you can't use generic chargers or battery
> packs and save money.
> The "generic" charger or battery pack just has it's internal ID chip
> programmed to suit a particular manufacturer,and a "brand name" tag
> applied,raising the price and profit margin.
>
Thats very much my sentiments !
The cheap Chinese clones look identical but don't always work as
expected. I would guess that they come out of the same factory, but by
the back door, with or without approval.
--
Best Regards:
Baron.
T i m
wrote:
Ah, but luckily this 'Mrs right(now)' is on the scene because Mrs-No-1
was given her marching orders. This one can stay as long as she
continues to behave herself and cooks me the best 'full English' once
a week that I've ever tasted.
This is the right way and how it was meant to be. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
Baron
> On Sun, 06 Feb 2011 19:24:45 +0000, Baron <ba...@linuxmaniac.net>
Its true ! The way to a mans heart is through his stomach. :-)
--
Best Regards:
Baron.
T i m
wrote:
>> But then I have never seen why we need so many different cars, washing
>> machines, TVs .....
>
>different people want different features.
Yes, but not as many features as options available I bet? And how much
energy is going into this duplication.
What I'm suggesting is that there are netbooks, notebooks, laptops and
desktop replacements and IMHO most people would be happy with many of
the examples of each, especially if they were given them for free for
example.
>I prefer small cars that handle well and have "ample accelleration",while
>others want armored tanks that ride like boats and seat half a dozen.
I guess the issue is (and this is an oft seen human trait) of the
constant bastardisation of utility things for (what could be seen as
if you get down to the nuts_and_bolts) an irrelevant cause. Like, IC
engined 'cars' evolved for transport, to carry you and you goods from
A to B. Easier to keep than a horse and quicker to get ready than a
steam plant. So, as soon as two get side by side we invent 'racing'.
;-(
There are only two types of car for me. An estate or 'free' (or very
cheap) as long as it can work for me.
The only car I've bought from new was my Company Sierra Estate and I
had that in the end for 23 years. Not once during that period did I
even consider anything else (other than for better fuel economy) as
that did all I ever wanted and more. Further it was very very
reliable. The other support guys chose hot-hatches and guess who they
came to when they wanted to move house etc. I always declined a
temporary 'swap' as a hot hatch was no use to me and especially so
without a towbar.
I guess my point is that most people could make good use of an estate
car but fewer could manage with a two seater or afford to run a Lambo.
But apparently that's not what it's all about (any more)? We are sold
the imagery of cruising the open road in the sunshine when the reality
is far from that for the vast majority.
>
>IMO,those "chipped" suppplies/battery packs are just an effort to
>monopolize their products,so you can't use generic chargers or battery
>packs and save money.
If I may play devils advocate for a mo, they might also try to ensure
a bit of compatibility quality control and / or better design? Don't
get me wrong, I don't like being ripped off on anything and won't buy
a 'name' just because. However, there are times said name = quality or
safety and that sometimes can be good VFM.
>The "generic" charger or battery pack just has it's internal ID chip
>programmed to suit a particular manufacturer,and a "brand name" tag
>applied,raising the price and profit margin.
And /could/ include some better quality control? OOI, the obviously
rip off / clone 'Dell' charger I have here (with Dell on the case and
everything) weighs half of that of a genuine charger? Do they use
lighter components or less of them I wonder. If less I wonder what
sort of stuff they left out?
Horses for courses (and racecourses) I guess. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
Bob Villa
Maybe you could explain the vernacular, such as "hot hatch" (sporty
hatch-back?), "tow-bar" (trailer hitch?), and is a Sierra Estate a
Chevy or what?
Thanks!
bob
T i m
<pheeh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Maybe you could explain the vernacular,
Ah, sorry. ;-)
> such as "hot hatch" (sporty
>hatch-back?),
Yup ...
> "tow-bar" (trailer hitch?),
Yup ...
> and is a Sierra Estate a
>Chevy or what?
Ford Sierra 2L GL estate. I think it was sold under the Merkur brand
in the States and possibly only the 3 door and a couple of other
variants?
And I drove it on the road not the pavement, it has bumpers, bonnet
and boot but wasn't converted to run on 'gas' (it ran on petrol). ;-)
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1255/4721558505_fb0f3a0624.jpg
(looks very much like mine)
So, you got the first two right and it didn't really matter what the
estate car was (as long as you got it was an estate car as such) as it
was more the function than the make, model or size I was eluding to.
;-)
However, /this/ estate had the 2L Pinto engine that was good because
it was pretty unbustable and was very common across a wide range of
vehicles and years. That means spares were readily available should
you need them. The cam belt went once and 12 GBP and an hour later I
had fitted it myself and was driving home (safe engine = such things
don't wreck the engine).
I generally towed my 14' sailing dingy about but also a 1/2 tonne
goods trailer I built. We also have a folding caravan (trailer?) that
it towed easily. Daughters Yamaha TY80 trials bike would fit across
the back on a towbar mounted rack. My electrathon motorbike, my mates
electrically assisted cycle, my Sinclair C5 and all associated kit
would fit in the back a treat. ;-)
The 2/3 split rear seats folded down to provide a very flat loading
bay and the shape of the glass in the tailgate meant even if something
looked like it was sticking out it would often be encompassed by the
tailgate easily.
The long roof with gutters mean I could fit a decent roofbars (for
carrying canoes, timber or even 5m lengths of steel stock. ;-)
5 speed gearbox with a long 5th meant 70 mph motorway cruising was
pretty comfortable.
I never had any problem with the power steering, central locking,
electric windows, alarm or electric sunroof because it didn't have any
of them. ;-)
FWIW it could have been anything that offered the same versatility as
long as it offered the same reliability etc.
Being 'common' (they were std issue 'rep-mobiles' for quite a while)
and using parts common to several engines meant I rarely had to wait
for spares to be ordered from overseas, they were pretty cheap
(pattern parts) and were available anywhere. Comforting to know you
can get a fan belt or hose at most motorway services. ;-)
Same logic re my BMW R100RT or Honda CB250 'Nighthawk' motorcycles.
Also why we used a Ford Escort donor when we built the kitcar
(reliable and easy / cheap parts). Also why I have always built my own
PCs and may have had a Mac at the time had I been able to build my
own. And I've therefore always run Windows (still happily on XP)
because most things are available for and run on it.
If I buy a new soldering iron one of the things I would look for is
the availability of spare tips etc and would pay more for one with
better (parts) support.
These days though we have the extra choice of 'disposable'. ;-(
I put little value on named brands and even less on 'designer'.
We have few photos or pictures up at home and no 'mood lighting'.
Rather than worrying about the fact our car was now 3 years old or if
our walls were in the 'in' colour we would rather be out cycling,
boating, motorcycling , flying power kites or camping etc.
Luckily it takes all sorts though or how else would I get good but
broken stuff given to me to fix for myself! ;-)
Cheers, T i m
who where
Have been watching this thread with some interest. We travel with a
Dell Vostro 1400 (Aug08 delivery), and in late 2008 we left the PSU
behind in sthn Calif. Noticed its absence in Vegas, and happened upon
a pooter shop who had new generic (non-Dell-branded) PSU's at a decent
price compared to the genuine Dell product. On first use - as they
explained - the Vostro reported a non-genuine PSU but has worked fine
for the last two years.
T i m
>>But yes, bring on the 'generic / modular' laptop (so it works more
>>like desktop clones) where not just things like optical drives can be
>>swapped between brands (and CPUs, RAM, HDDs etc) but system boards,
>>chargers and batteries.
>
>Have been watching this thread with some interest. We travel with a
>Dell Vostro 1400 (Aug08 delivery), and in late 2008 we left the PSU
>behind in sthn Calif. Noticed its absence in Vegas, and happened upon
>a pooter shop who had new generic (non-Dell-branded) PSU's at a decent
>price compared to the genuine Dell product.
Ok.
> On first use - as they
>explained - the Vostro reported a non-genuine PSU but has worked fine
>for the last two years.
Including charging the battery you mean?
I have two 'non Dell' power adaptors here. One looks very Dell, runs
but won't charge and another that is not so Dell looking that both
runs and charges on the D520 and 1545 (as does my Targus 90W adaptor).
We don't know if either will charge the 1535 yet as we don't have a
good / recognised one to try. ;-(
The copy charger that works has the spec of a 90W (if anything is to
be believed) but is reported (on all 3 Dell laptops) as being 150W!
;-)
I think what can actually happen may depend to some degree the
particular model. Daughters D520 is very happy with a clone battery
whereas the 1535 doesn't seem to want to play. That could be as much
down to the batteries of course.
Cheers, T i m
Bob Villa
"Sierra" and "Cierra" names belong to GM in the States.
We have 2 cars...a Buick LaSabre (considered an old man's car) it's
large with excellent mileage (35mi/gal). The other is a 16 yr old
Saturn (the beater).
With the Buick, and its electronic readouts I realize how much gas we
waste "getting up to speed". If everyone "actually" knew how much gas
they were wasting "with a heavy foot" we would save an immense amount
of "petrol"!
T i m
<pheeh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Well Tim,
Hello ;-)
> now I know what "estate" means (station wagon)
We used to have styles we called 'Countryman' I would more typically
associate with what would come to mind when you said 'station wagon.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Mini_countryman.jpg
http://www.seriouswheels.com/1960-1969/1967-Austin-Mini-Minor-Traveller-RA.htm
http://mmoc.org.uk/mbimage.php?src=1282950349_12800
As opposed to an estate which is more like this:
http://www.naturalburialgrounds.com/uploads/images/Misc%20Pics/Family_Estate.jpg
Or even this!
http://classic-car.y2u.co.uk/Photo_caq/Reliant_Rialto_Estate_Car.jpg
but I'm probably thinking about The Waltons. ;-)
>and the
>"Sierra" and "Cierra" names belong to GM in the States.
Ah.
>We have 2 cars...a Buick LaSabre (considered an old man's car) it's
>large with excellent mileage (35mi/gal).
I have what sounds like the equivalent, a Rover 218SD. Nearer 50 UKmpg
though.
> The other is a 16 yr old
>Saturn (the beater).
K.
>With the Buick, and its electronic readouts I realize how much gas we
>waste "getting up to speed". If everyone "actually" knew how much gas
>they were wasting "with a heavy foot" we would save an immense amount
>of "petrol"!
;-)
Our company had a basic Ford Escort 1.1 (hatchback) that had 'economy'
lights. Basically they were just connected to sensors on the inlet
manifold and measured the vacuum. Green was good, amber you were
pushing a bit and red, well. If you were bothered it was actually
quite revealing (as you say) with even a slight headwind or incline
seeing the lights go from green to amber as you automatically
compensated with your right foot to keep the road speed constant (and
noting you couldn't do with a vacuum gauge of course). ;-)
And as they say 'you can manage what you can measure'.
Getting back on topic I guess that's partly why I got into electronics
at a fairly early age (17). For most people 'electricity' is invisible
but with the right tools (scopes, DMM, magnetic pickups, frequency
counters and spectrum analysers etc etc) it often becomes very visual.
Add to that Ohms law and an understanding of basic components and you
are away.
Not quite the same for digital I don't think. Plug in diagnostic
interface and click on 'Run'. ;-(
Cheers, T i m
who where
>On Mon, 07 Feb 2011 08:54:59 +0800, who where <no...@home.net> wrote:
>
>
>>>But yes, bring on the 'generic / modular' laptop (so it works more
>>>like desktop clones) where not just things like optical drives can be
>>>swapped between brands (and CPUs, RAM, HDDs etc) but system boards,
>>>chargers and batteries.
>>
>>Have been watching this thread with some interest. We travel with a
>>Dell Vostro 1400 (Aug08 delivery), and in late 2008 we left the PSU
>>behind in sthn Calif. Noticed its absence in Vegas, and happened upon
>>a pooter shop who had new generic (non-Dell-branded) PSU's at a decent
>>price compared to the genuine Dell product.
>
>Ok.
>
>> On first use - as they
>>explained - the Vostro reported a non-genuine PSU but has worked fine
>>for the last two years.
>
>Including charging the battery you mean?
Yes
T i m
>>> On first use - as they
>>>explained - the Vostro reported a non-genuine PSU but has worked fine
>>>for the last two years.
>>
>>Including charging the battery you mean?
>
>Yes
Ok ta.
Thinking outside the box a bit and looking at this external /
universal charger ... if I had a known good Dell battery with the same
parameters as required by the laptop but that just didn't fit /in/ the
laptop a short extension lead might do the trick. Certainly sufficient
enough to ensure it /was/ a battery problem before buying another one?
Cheers, T i m
p.s. When I worked for British Telecom (and then later Kodak on their
Microfilm side) we regularly used 'external' cards / cables to allow
us to check the card / module whilst connected to the machine but so
we could still get to it.
Bob Villa
We use extender cards...and "stack" the card you were working on. I
worked on Rockwell based archaic PMOS. *L*
Michael A. Terrell
They were Positive ESD was going to wipe their MOS. ;-)
--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.
Jim Yanik
news:2s61l6lcohoeld169...@4ax.com:
perhaps you mean "extender" cards or cables?
T i m
wrote:
>T i m <ne...@spaced.me.uk> wrote in
Probably but the function of the thing was to make the card / module
appear /outside/ the unit so it sorta works for me. ;-)
I was thinking that I only need an old (compatible/ Dell) laptop base
/ mobo and I've already got a dead battery and I should be able to put
something together (in the best Frankenstein stylee). ;-)
Assuming these batteries only report 'I'm a Dell battery' rather than
"I'm a Dell battery for a Studio 1535 with a pink lid ..."? ;-(
Cheers, T i m
T i m
wrote:
>
>Ah. I envisioned a unit that the battery was placed into rather than a
>connector on a flying lead. I would be interested in the pin out for
>that. :-)
http://www.allpinouts.org/index.php/DELL_D500_D600_battery
Cheers, T i m
Jim Yanik
I used to build my own custom extenders (and dummy loads for
switchers)while at Tektronix. they helped a lot.
Designers just don't make things accessible like they used to.
or provide useful test points.)
I guess it's part of the "throwaway" culture. :-(
Baron
> On Sun, 06 Feb 2011 16:37:34 +0000, Baron <ba...@linuxmaniac.net>
Thanks:
--
Best Regards:
Baron.
T i m
wrote:
>> I was thinking that I only need an old (compatible/ Dell) laptop base
>> / mobo and I've already got a dead battery and I should be able to put
>> something together (in the best Frankenstein stylee). ;-)
>>
>> Assuming these batteries only report 'I'm a Dell battery' rather than
>> "I'm a Dell battery for a Studio 1535 with a pink lid ..."? ;-(
>>
>
>I used to build my own custom extenders (and dummy loads for
>switchers)while at Tektronix. they helped a lot.
Yeah, I used to do similar when a data comms tech. We would bring out
a new range of comms gear but my boss was reluctant to go out and buy
new test kit for it so would get me to design and build all manner of
converters. I enjoyed doing so and it was good to see the other
support guys using it in the field thereafter. ;-)
>Designers just don't make things accessible like they used to.
>or provide useful test points.)
I guess because no human is ever going to test it?
>
>I guess it's part of the "throwaway" culture. :-(
Yup, so it seems and unlikely to change while we seem to be
squandering the worlds recourses as we are today.
Cheers, T i m
p.s. I fid it difficult to throw things away (although I'm not sure
there is such a place as 'away') because even a broken thing contains
parts and materials that may be of use to me at some point. There have
been numerous instances where I have used parts scavenged from
something to repair something else ... some salvaged particularly long
machine screws or switches / whatever.
The 'price' of that flexibility is a house full of 'stuff'.
Jim Yanik
> p.s. I fid it difficult to throw things away (although I'm not sure
> there is such a place as 'away') because even a broken thing contains
> parts and materials that may be of use to me at some point. There have
> been numerous instances where I have used parts scavenged from
> something to repair something else ... some salvaged particularly long
> machine screws or switches / whatever.
>
> The 'price' of that flexibility is a house full of 'stuff'.
>
>
yeah,I'm a packrat too.
every time I "houseclean",a short time later I realize I threw away
something I could have used.
T i m
wrote:
>> The 'price' of that flexibility is a house full of 'stuff'.
>>
>>
>
>yeah,I'm a packrat too.
>every time I "houseclean",a short time later I realize I threw away
>something I could have used.
Oh don't.
I was given a micro PC case and stand and did nothing with it for
/years/. Eventually in a fit of tidiness I took the case and it's
stand down the dump. I threw the plastic stand in the plastic
recycling but couldn't bring myself to throw the case.
Two weeks later Mum wanted a PC and I put one together using the
little case. Ideally it would have stood on it's edge on a raised
stand ... ;-(
It's like when beggars come up to you and ask if you have any 'spare
change'. I'm my mind I'm thinking 'I don't know, I haven't finished my
life yet ...' ?
I really thing these TV shows are trying to de-program millions of
years of evolution that has shown that 'stuff' is valuable but maybe
only to those with the skills to use it [1] (and hence today's
trends).
However, this is mainly a 1st world problem as in the 3rd world more
things are used and reused to their fullest. I mean, we even ship our
rubbish there.
Cheers, T i m
[1] And to be fair, the ability to fix stuff even with the tool, LSI
and cars covered in electronics etc.