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Re: Google admits it tracked user location data even when the setting was turned off
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harry newton
Nov 21, 2017, 5:40:24 PM11/21/17
to
He who is harry newton said on Tue, 21 Nov 2017 22:32:53 +-0000 (UTC):
> Google admits it tracked user location data even when the setting was
> turned off. It did so via cell tower data.
> <https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/21/16684818/google-location-tracking-cell-tower-data-android-os-firebase-privacy>
Does anyone know more about disabling "Firebase Cloud Messaging" services?
For example, what if you're on Android 4.3 (like I am) with all location
services disabled?
Here's another article...
Google collects Android users+IBk- locations even when location services are
disabled
<https://qz.com/1131515/google-collects-android-users-locations-even-when-location-services-are-disabled/>
Since the beginning of 2017, Android phones have been collecting the
addresses of nearby cellular towers+IBQ-even when location services are
disabled+IBQ-and sending that data back to Google.
Google was apparently collecting cell tower data from all modern Android
devices before being contacted by Quartz. A source familiar with the matter
said the cell tower addresses were being sent to Google after a change in
early 2017 to the Firebase Cloud Messaging service, which is owned by
Google and runs on Android phones by default.
Devices with a cellular data or WiFi connection appear to send the data to
Google each time they come within range of a new cell tower. When Android
devices are connected to a WiFi network, they will send the tower addresses
to Google even if they don+IBk-t have SIM cards installed.
Android devices never offered consumers a way to opt out of the collection
of cell tower data.
> Google admits it tracked user location data even when the setting was
> turned off. It did so via cell tower data.
> <https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/21/16684818/google-location-tracking-cell-tower-data-android-os-firebase-privacy>
Does anyone know more about disabling "Firebase Cloud Messaging" services?
For example, what if you're on Android 4.3 (like I am) with all location
services disabled?
Here's another article...
Google collects Android users+IBk- locations even when location services are
disabled
<https://qz.com/1131515/google-collects-android-users-locations-even-when-location-services-are-disabled/>
Since the beginning of 2017, Android phones have been collecting the
addresses of nearby cellular towers+IBQ-even when location services are
disabled+IBQ-and sending that data back to Google.
Google was apparently collecting cell tower data from all modern Android
devices before being contacted by Quartz. A source familiar with the matter
said the cell tower addresses were being sent to Google after a change in
early 2017 to the Firebase Cloud Messaging service, which is owned by
Google and runs on Android phones by default.
Devices with a cellular data or WiFi connection appear to send the data to
Google each time they come within range of a new cell tower. When Android
devices are connected to a WiFi network, they will send the tower addresses
to Google even if they don+IBk-t have SIM cards installed.
Android devices never offered consumers a way to opt out of the collection
of cell tower data.
harry newton
Nov 21, 2017, 6:49:02 PM11/21/17
to
He who is nospam said on Tue, 21 Nov 2017 17:55:51 -0500:
> you were *so* sure you had blocked google's ability to track you, going
> to such extreme lengths as changing your google id every few weeks.
>
> many people told you that you were still being tracked, but you blindly
> dismissed it.
>
> now you know.
You would love that to be the case, but, you're jumping to conclusions out
of confirmation bias (i.e., you *wish* it were true).
I looked and I don't think it's the case for me since I don't see (yet)
anything called "Firebase Cloud Messaging" on my Android 4.3 phone.
Time will tell which phones were affected, but this is a good one for
Google to get sued on, as it certainly will take some 'splaining why they
captured unique cell tower IDs when Location Services were disabled.
All we know, so far, is that it started in January of this year, and that
it used "Firebase Cloud Messaging" services - whatever that is. I googled
it, and I don't think it's even on my phone - but it's too early to tell
just yet what's going on.
Google apparently immediately said they'd terminate the practice of
capturing cell tower unique IDs - so, it doesn't appear to be something
they sanctioned (because they wouldn't likely have agreed to terminate the
practice so quickly if they had their legal ducks already lined up).
Time will tell which devices are affected - but I don't even see the app on
my phone - which is rooted - so I can delete it - if I can find it - but it
doesn't seem to exist.
To other android users:
Q: Do you see a process for "Firebase Cloud Messaging" services?
> you were *so* sure you had blocked google's ability to track you, going
> to such extreme lengths as changing your google id every few weeks.
>
> many people told you that you were still being tracked, but you blindly
> dismissed it.
>
> now you know.
You would love that to be the case, but, you're jumping to conclusions out
of confirmation bias (i.e., you *wish* it were true).
I looked and I don't think it's the case for me since I don't see (yet)
anything called "Firebase Cloud Messaging" on my Android 4.3 phone.
Time will tell which phones were affected, but this is a good one for
Google to get sued on, as it certainly will take some 'splaining why they
captured unique cell tower IDs when Location Services were disabled.
All we know, so far, is that it started in January of this year, and that
it used "Firebase Cloud Messaging" services - whatever that is. I googled
it, and I don't think it's even on my phone - but it's too early to tell
just yet what's going on.
Google apparently immediately said they'd terminate the practice of
capturing cell tower unique IDs - so, it doesn't appear to be something
they sanctioned (because they wouldn't likely have agreed to terminate the
practice so quickly if they had their legal ducks already lined up).
Time will tell which devices are affected - but I don't even see the app on
my phone - which is rooted - so I can delete it - if I can find it - but it
doesn't seem to exist.
To other android users:
Q: Do you see a process for "Firebase Cloud Messaging" services?
Jeff Liebermann
Nov 21, 2017, 10:26:20 PM11/21/17
to
On Tue, 21 Nov 2017 23:48:55 +0000 (UTC), harry newton
<ha...@is.invalid> wrote:
>To other android users:
> Q: Do you see a process for "Firebase Cloud Messaging" services?
It's not an app. It's service:
<ha...@is.invalid> wrote:
>To other android users:
> Q: Do you see a process for "Firebase Cloud Messaging" services?
<https://firebase.google.com/docs/cloud-messaging/>
<https://firebase.google.com/products/cloud-messaging/>
You download the API and link it into your application. It runs on a
variety of platforms including Apple IOS.
More:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=Firebase+Cloud+Messaging>
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
harry newton
Nov 21, 2017, 10:36:12 PM11/21/17
to
He who is Jeff Liebermann said on Tue, 21 Nov 2017 19:26:10 -0800:
> It's not an app. It's service:
> <https://firebase.google.com/docs/cloud-messaging/>
> <https://firebase.google.com/products/cloud-messaging/>
> You download the API and link it into your application. It runs on a
> variety of platforms including Apple IOS.
>
> More:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=Firebase+Cloud+Messaging>
It's still early on since the news came out today, but it behooves us to
figure out then which apps incorporated the Firebase service.
BTW, I think this recent "mashable" article is dead wrong in that they
minimize the outrage by saying the unique cell tower ID was encrypted and
discarded.
"Nope, your Android phone's not secretly tracking your location when you
tell it not to"
<http://mashable.com/2017/11/21/google-android-location-tracking-services-turned-off/>
The mere fact the cell tower ID was *transmitted* to Google servers is the
breach of trust, IMHO.
> It's not an app. It's service:
> <https://firebase.google.com/docs/cloud-messaging/>
> <https://firebase.google.com/products/cloud-messaging/>
> You download the API and link it into your application. It runs on a
> variety of platforms including Apple IOS.
>
> More:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=Firebase+Cloud+Messaging>
figure out then which apps incorporated the Firebase service.
BTW, I think this recent "mashable" article is dead wrong in that they
minimize the outrage by saying the unique cell tower ID was encrypted and
discarded.
"Nope, your Android phone's not secretly tracking your location when you
tell it not to"
<http://mashable.com/2017/11/21/google-android-location-tracking-services-turned-off/>
The mere fact the cell tower ID was *transmitted* to Google servers is the
breach of trust, IMHO.
rickman
Nov 21, 2017, 11:53:20 PM11/21/17
to
harry newton wrote on 11/21/2017 6:48 PM:
> He who is nospam said on Tue, 21 Nov 2017 17:55:51 -0500:
>
>> you were *so* sure you had blocked google's ability to track you, going
>> to such extreme lengths as changing your google id every few weeks.
>>
>> many people told you that you were still being tracked, but you blindly
>> dismissed it.
>>
>> now you know.
>
> You would love that to be the case, but, you're jumping to conclusions out
> of confirmation bias (i.e., you *wish* it were true).
>
> I looked and I don't think it's the case for me since I don't see (yet)
> anything called "Firebase Cloud Messaging" on my Android 4.3 phone.
>
> Time will tell which phones were affected, but this is a good one for
> Google to get sued on, as it certainly will take some 'splaining why they
> captured unique cell tower IDs when Location Services were disabled.
>
> All we know, so far, is that it started in January of this year, and that
> it used "Firebase Cloud Messaging" services - whatever that is. I googled
> it, and I don't think it's even on my phone - but it's too early to tell
> just yet what's going on.
>
> Google apparently immediately said they'd terminate the practice of
> capturing cell tower unique IDs - so, it doesn't appear to be something
> they sanctioned (because they wouldn't likely have agreed to terminate the
> practice so quickly if they had their legal ducks already lined up).
You would love for that to be the case, but you're jumping to conclusions
> He who is nospam said on Tue, 21 Nov 2017 17:55:51 -0500:
>
>> you were *so* sure you had blocked google's ability to track you, going
>> to such extreme lengths as changing your google id every few weeks.
>>
>> many people told you that you were still being tracked, but you blindly
>> dismissed it.
>>
>> now you know.
>
> You would love that to be the case, but, you're jumping to conclusions out
> of confirmation bias (i.e., you *wish* it were true).
>
> I looked and I don't think it's the case for me since I don't see (yet)
> anything called "Firebase Cloud Messaging" on my Android 4.3 phone.
>
> Time will tell which phones were affected, but this is a good one for
> Google to get sued on, as it certainly will take some 'splaining why they
> captured unique cell tower IDs when Location Services were disabled.
>
> All we know, so far, is that it started in January of this year, and that
> it used "Firebase Cloud Messaging" services - whatever that is. I googled
> it, and I don't think it's even on my phone - but it's too early to tell
> just yet what's going on.
>
> Google apparently immediately said they'd terminate the practice of
> capturing cell tower unique IDs - so, it doesn't appear to be something
> they sanctioned (because they wouldn't likely have agreed to terminate the
> practice so quickly if they had their legal ducks already lined up).
out of confirmation bias (i.e., you *wish* it were true).
There are the legal issues involved, but just as important if not more
important is the public image perception.
--
Rick C
Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998
harry newton
Nov 22, 2017, 12:05:24 AM11/22/17
to
He who is rickman said on Tue, 21 Nov 2017 23:53:06 -0500:
> You would love for that to be the case, but you're jumping to conclusions
> out of confirmation bias (i.e., you *wish* it were true).
I'm the one *reporting* the issue here, not you, for heaven's sake.
I'm the one intimating Google can get *sued* for this, perhaps.
I'm the one asking for more information, for heaven's sake.
I'm the one who said Mashable errantly minimized the danger.
Not you. Not nospam.
Me.
All I'm saying are facts.
All you've said, is nothing of value.
I'm asking others to look on their phones for these reputed "Firebase Cloud
Messaging" services.
My phone is jailbroken where I can delete anything I want, where I *looked*
for anything on the phone remotely resembling a "Firebase Cloud Messaging"
service. I have plenty of root-only apps which seek out such things, but I
haven't seen it yet.
Admittedly, my phone is ancient, where the articles specifically mentioned
only the newer Android phones were updated in January of this year to send
the unique cell tower ID to Google servers.
So I'm the one asking *you* (and everyone here) what *they* have on their
phone that resembles "Firebase Cloud Messaging" services running.
Where's the value YOU added?
> You would love for that to be the case, but you're jumping to conclusions
> out of confirmation bias (i.e., you *wish* it were true).
I'm the one intimating Google can get *sued* for this, perhaps.
I'm the one asking for more information, for heaven's sake.
I'm the one who said Mashable errantly minimized the danger.
Not you. Not nospam.
Me.
All I'm saying are facts.
All you've said, is nothing of value.
I'm asking others to look on their phones for these reputed "Firebase Cloud
Messaging" services.
My phone is jailbroken where I can delete anything I want, where I *looked*
for anything on the phone remotely resembling a "Firebase Cloud Messaging"
service. I have plenty of root-only apps which seek out such things, but I
haven't seen it yet.
Admittedly, my phone is ancient, where the articles specifically mentioned
only the newer Android phones were updated in January of this year to send
the unique cell tower ID to Google servers.
So I'm the one asking *you* (and everyone here) what *they* have on their
phone that resembles "Firebase Cloud Messaging" services running.
Where's the value YOU added?
rickman
Nov 22, 2017, 12:32:49 AM11/22/17
to
harry newton wrote on 11/22/2017 12:05 AM:
> He who is rickman said on Tue, 21 Nov 2017 23:53:06 -0500:
>
>> You would love for that to be the case, but you're jumping to conclusions
>> out of confirmation bias (i.e., you *wish* it were true).
>
> I'm the one *reporting* the issue here, not you, for heaven's sake.
> I'm the one intimating Google can get *sued* for this, perhaps.
> I'm the one asking for more information, for heaven's sake.
> I'm the one who said Mashable errantly minimized the danger.
>
> Not you. Not nospam. Me.
>
> All I'm saying are facts.
And speculation... "it doesn't appear to be something
> He who is rickman said on Tue, 21 Nov 2017 23:53:06 -0500:
>
>> You would love for that to be the case, but you're jumping to conclusions
>> out of confirmation bias (i.e., you *wish* it were true).
>
> I'm the one *reporting* the issue here, not you, for heaven's sake.
> I'm the one intimating Google can get *sued* for this, perhaps.
> I'm the one asking for more information, for heaven's sake.
> I'm the one who said Mashable errantly minimized the danger.
>
> Not you. Not nospam. Me.
>
> All I'm saying are facts.
they sanctioned (because they wouldn't likely have agreed to terminate the
practice so quickly if they had their legal ducks already lined up)."
practice so quickly if they had their legal ducks already lined up)."
> All you've said, is nothing of value.
I think there is value in distinguishing between the facts and your
speculation.
> So I'm the one asking *you* (and everyone here) what *they* have on their
> phone that resembles "Firebase Cloud Messaging" services running.
> Where's the value YOU added?
harry newton
Nov 22, 2017, 12:40:46 AM11/22/17
to
He who is Jeff Liebermann said on Tue, 21 Nov 2017 19:26:10 -0800:
> It's not an app. It's service:
Do you know how to tell, definitively, if any given phone is running this
compromised service?
I don't see it running when I look using these instructions:
<https://www.howtogeek.com/258300/how-to-access-androids-list-of-running-apps-in-6.0-marshmallow-and-above/>
However, it could be running *inside* an app that linked to the API.
When I check it with adb, I get the following error:
$ adb shell service list
error: device not found
I can check with "ps" though:
$ ps | grep -i service
Returns about a dozen services such as:
org.simalliance.openmobileapi.service:remote
samsung.clipboardsaveservice
com.sec.android.inputmethod:ACService
etc.
But:
$ ps | grep -i firebase
Returns nothing
At this point, I see no evidence (yet anyway) of firebase services on my
Android 4.3 phone. Do you?
> It's not an app. It's service:
compromised service?
I don't see it running when I look using these instructions:
<https://www.howtogeek.com/258300/how-to-access-androids-list-of-running-apps-in-6.0-marshmallow-and-above/>
However, it could be running *inside* an app that linked to the API.
When I check it with adb, I get the following error:
$ adb shell service list
error: device not found
I can check with "ps" though:
$ ps | grep -i service
Returns about a dozen services such as:
org.simalliance.openmobileapi.service:remote
samsung.clipboardsaveservice
com.sec.android.inputmethod:ACService
etc.
But:
$ ps | grep -i firebase
Returns nothing
At this point, I see no evidence (yet anyway) of firebase services on my
Android 4.3 phone. Do you?
harry newton
Nov 22, 2017, 12:42:22 AM11/22/17
to
He who is rickman said on Wed, 22 Nov 2017 00:32:39 -0500:
>> Where's the value YOU added?
>
> Pointing out your speculation which is *not* fact.
Fair enough.
Do you know how to tell, definitively, if any given phone is running this
compromised service?
I don't see it running when I look using these instructions:
<https://www.howtogeek.com/258300/how-to-access-androids-list-of-running-apps-in-6.0-marshmallow-and-above/>
However, it could be running *inside* an app that linked to the API.
When I check it with adb, I get the following error:
$ adb shell service list
error: device not found
I can check with "ps" though:
$ ps | grep -i service
Returns about a dozen services such as:
org.simalliance.openmobileapi.service:remote
samsung.clipboardsaveservice
com.sec.android.inputmethod:ACService
etc.
But:
$ ps | grep -i firebase
Returns nothing
At this point, I see no evidence (yet anyway) of firebase services on my
Android 4.3 phone. Do you see evidence of it running on yours?
>> Where's the value YOU added?
>
> Pointing out your speculation which is *not* fact.
Do you know how to tell, definitively, if any given phone is running this
compromised service?
I don't see it running when I look using these instructions:
<https://www.howtogeek.com/258300/how-to-access-androids-list-of-running-apps-in-6.0-marshmallow-and-above/>
However, it could be running *inside* an app that linked to the API.
When I check it with adb, I get the following error:
$ adb shell service list
error: device not found
I can check with "ps" though:
$ ps | grep -i service
Returns about a dozen services such as:
org.simalliance.openmobileapi.service:remote
samsung.clipboardsaveservice
com.sec.android.inputmethod:ACService
etc.
But:
$ ps | grep -i firebase
Returns nothing
Android 4.3 phone. Do you see evidence of it running on yours?
bruce2...@gmail.com
Nov 22, 2017, 8:09:53 AM11/22/17
to
On Tuesday, November 21, 2017 12:40AM, harry newton wrote:
>He who is Jeff Liebermann said on Tue, 21 Nov 2017 19:26:10 -0800:
>
>> It's not an app. It's service:
>
>Do you know how to tell, definitively, if any given phone is running this
>compromised service?
>
>I don't see it running when I look using these instructions:
<https://www.howtogeek.com/258300/how-to-access-androids-list-of-running-apps-in-6.0-marshmallow-and-above/>
>
>However, it could be running *inside* an app that linked to the API
And at what point are you to assume that additional hidden in-house billing or update-service programming (that can't be turned-off) automatically reveals a phone's location at an un-announced time?
>He who is Jeff Liebermann said on Tue, 21 Nov 2017 19:26:10 -0800:
>
>> It's not an app. It's service:
>
>Do you know how to tell, definitively, if any given phone is running this
>compromised service?
>
>I don't see it running when I look using these instructions:
<https://www.howtogeek.com/258300/how-to-access-androids-list-of-running-apps-in-6.0-marshmallow-and-above/>
>
>However, it could be running *inside* an app that linked to the API
pf...@aol.com
Nov 22, 2017, 8:57:30 AM11/22/17
to
For What It's Worth
Buffalo Springfield (1967)
There's something happening here
What it is ain't exactly clear
There's a man with a gun over there
Telling me I got to beware
I think it's time we stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
There's battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
Young people speaking their minds
Getting so much resistance from behind
It's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
What a field-day for the heat
A thousand people in the street
Singing songs and carrying signs
Mostly say, hooray for our side
It's s time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away
We better stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, now, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Not much has changed.
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
Buffalo Springfield (1967)
There's something happening here
What it is ain't exactly clear
There's a man with a gun over there
Telling me I got to beware
I think it's time we stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
There's battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
Young people speaking their minds
Getting so much resistance from behind
It's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
What a field-day for the heat
A thousand people in the street
Singing songs and carrying signs
Mostly say, hooray for our side
It's s time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away
We better stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, now, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Not much has changed.
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
Jeff Liebermann
Nov 22, 2017, 12:33:02 PM11/22/17
to
On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 05:40:42 +0000 (UTC), harry newton
<ha...@is.invalid> wrote:
>At this point, I see no evidence (yet anyway) of firebase services on my
>Android 4.3 phone. Do you?
I dunno and don't have the time to check. Since it's probably buried
<ha...@is.invalid> wrote:
>At this point, I see no evidence (yet anyway) of firebase services on my
>Android 4.3 phone. Do you?
the application code, I doubt if I'll find anything.
However, all this begs another question. Assuming that Wi-Fi is also
turned off in Airplane mode, what the hell is Google doing
TRANSMITTING anything? Unless its buffered, to use the phone for
location tracking would require transmitting the tower ID's when they
are heard. I would think that the airline companies would take a dim
view of this as Google's transmitting anything in an commercial
airliner in flight could interfere with aircraft navigation, which is
the purpose of having the Airplane mode. If some airliner falls out
of the sky due to a navigation error, Google's tracking trickery could
easily be deemed responsible.
Incidentally, there's quite a bit more information available that
could be used for location tracking than just the tower ID. The big
one is the propagation delay (ping time) between the handset and the
cell tower, which defines a location radius. Two or three such delays
would obtain your location quite accurately. However, Google could
just as easily transmit the GPS location or the individual satellite
delays in order to obtain a location. It's odd that they would
transmit only the tower ID's, as there so much more available.
I should probably fire up the spectrum analyzer, turn off the wi-fi,
and see if my Samsung S6 is belching anything in Airplane mode.
However, tomorrow is the Day of the Turkeys and I have other plans.
Happy Day of the Turkeys.
harry newton
Nov 22, 2017, 3:00:34 PM11/22/17
to
He who is Jeff Liebermann said on Wed, 22 Nov 2017 09:32:54 -0800:
> I dunno and don't have the time to check. Since it's probably buried
> the application code, I doubt if I'll find anything.
That's understandable.
It was reported only yesterday, so, the pundits need to dig deeper for us.
> However, all this begs another question. Assuming that Wi-Fi is also
> turned off in Airplane mode, what the hell is Google doing
> TRANSMITTING anything? Unless its buffered, to use the phone for
> location tracking would require transmitting the tower ID's when they
> are heard.
The code, as I understand it, only activates when you're connected to the
Internet (via either cellular data or WiFi). Nothing else is required.
* no sim card
* factory defaults (i.e., no apps)
* location services turned off
<https://qz.com/1131515/google-collects-android-users-locations-even-when-location-services-are-disabled/>
"Devices with a cellular data or WiFi connection appear to send the data to
Google each time they come within range of a new cell tower."
Slate.com also said the information is sent the moment two things happen:
1. You're on the Internet (using WiFi or cellular data)
2. And you're "in range" of a cellular tower
<http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2017/11/how_to_stop_phone_from_tracking_location_android_latest_to_prove_you_should.html>
> I would think that the airline companies would take a dim
> view of this as Google's transmitting anything in an commercial
> airliner in flight could interfere with aircraft navigation, which is
> the purpose of having the Airplane mode. If some airliner falls out
> of the sky due to a navigation error, Google's tracking trickery could
> easily be deemed responsible.
I think the transmission only occurs if two things are simultaneous:
1. You're in range of a cell tower, and,
2. You're already on the Internet
If the SIM card is out of the phone, then the only way you'll be on the
Internet is with WiFi (or maybe also reverse tethering, I suppose).
> Incidentally, there's quite a bit more information available that
> could be used for location tracking than just the tower ID. The big
> one is the propagation delay (ping time) between the handset and the
> cell tower, which defines a location radius.
This is very interesting, as you always know the details that are juicy.
Where we both live, towers aren't necessarily close, but if, say, for
example, I'm staking out those pot farmers in Boulder Creek who were
arrested for shooting at suspected pot thieves during that fire a couple of
weeks ago, then I don't want ANY information about my proximity to ANY cell
tower to be transmitted.
Here's what Google was quoted as having said in the QZ.com article:
"In January of this year, we began ... using Cell ID codes as an additional
signal to further improve the speed and performance of message delivery"
> Two or three such delays
> would obtain your location quite accurately.
This is good information to know.
Well, actually, it's bad information to know.
But you know what I mean.
> However, Google could
> just as easily transmit the GPS location or the individual satellite
> delays in order to obtain a location. It's odd that they would
> transmit only the tower ID's, as there so much more available.
They *are* getting *more* than the unique cell tower id.
1. MCC
2. MNC
3. CID
Google provided this quote to Gizmodo:
"To ensure messages and notifications are received quickly, modern
Android phones use a network sync system that requires the use of Mobile
Country Codes (MCC) and Mobile Network Codes (MNC). In January of this
year, we began ... using Cell ID codes as an additional signal to further
improve the speed and performance of message delivery. ... MCC and MNC
provide necessary network information for message and notification delivery
and are distinctly separate from Location Services..."
<https://gizmodo.com/your-android-phone-has-been-sending-location-data-to-go-1820639889>
> I should probably fire up the spectrum analyzer, turn off the wi-fi,
> and see if my Samsung S6 is belching anything in Airplane mode.
I think airplane mode might still be working - except on some iOS devices
with the older OS's (which some of mine are on).
> I dunno and don't have the time to check. Since it's probably buried
> the application code, I doubt if I'll find anything.
It was reported only yesterday, so, the pundits need to dig deeper for us.
> However, all this begs another question. Assuming that Wi-Fi is also
> turned off in Airplane mode, what the hell is Google doing
> TRANSMITTING anything? Unless its buffered, to use the phone for
> location tracking would require transmitting the tower ID's when they
> are heard.
Internet (via either cellular data or WiFi). Nothing else is required.
* no sim card
* factory defaults (i.e., no apps)
* location services turned off
<https://qz.com/1131515/google-collects-android-users-locations-even-when-location-services-are-disabled/>
"Devices with a cellular data or WiFi connection appear to send the data to
Google each time they come within range of a new cell tower."
1. You're on the Internet (using WiFi or cellular data)
2. And you're "in range" of a cellular tower
<http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2017/11/how_to_stop_phone_from_tracking_location_android_latest_to_prove_you_should.html>
> I would think that the airline companies would take a dim
> view of this as Google's transmitting anything in an commercial
> airliner in flight could interfere with aircraft navigation, which is
> the purpose of having the Airplane mode. If some airliner falls out
> of the sky due to a navigation error, Google's tracking trickery could
> easily be deemed responsible.
1. You're in range of a cell tower, and,
2. You're already on the Internet
If the SIM card is out of the phone, then the only way you'll be on the
Internet is with WiFi (or maybe also reverse tethering, I suppose).
> Incidentally, there's quite a bit more information available that
> could be used for location tracking than just the tower ID. The big
> one is the propagation delay (ping time) between the handset and the
> cell tower, which defines a location radius.
Where we both live, towers aren't necessarily close, but if, say, for
example, I'm staking out those pot farmers in Boulder Creek who were
arrested for shooting at suspected pot thieves during that fire a couple of
weeks ago, then I don't want ANY information about my proximity to ANY cell
tower to be transmitted.
Here's what Google was quoted as having said in the QZ.com article:
"In January of this year, we began ... using Cell ID codes as an additional
signal to further improve the speed and performance of message delivery"
> Two or three such delays
> would obtain your location quite accurately.
Well, actually, it's bad information to know.
But you know what I mean.
> However, Google could
> just as easily transmit the GPS location or the individual satellite
> delays in order to obtain a location. It's odd that they would
> transmit only the tower ID's, as there so much more available.
1. MCC
2. MNC
3. CID
Google provided this quote to Gizmodo:
"To ensure messages and notifications are received quickly, modern
Android phones use a network sync system that requires the use of Mobile
Country Codes (MCC) and Mobile Network Codes (MNC). In January of this
year, we began ... using Cell ID codes as an additional signal to further
improve the speed and performance of message delivery. ... MCC and MNC
provide necessary network information for message and notification delivery
and are distinctly separate from Location Services..."
<https://gizmodo.com/your-android-phone-has-been-sending-location-data-to-go-1820639889>
> I should probably fire up the spectrum analyzer, turn off the wi-fi,
> and see if my Samsung S6 is belching anything in Airplane mode.
with the older OS's (which some of mine are on).
Char Jackson
Nov 22, 2017, 3:09:16 PM11/22/17
to
On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 09:32:54 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:
>However, all this begs another question. Assuming that Wi-Fi is also
>turned off in Airplane mode, what the hell is Google doing
>TRANSMITTING anything? Unless its buffered,
That seems likely, along with timestamps on everything to facilitate
correlation.
>to use the phone for
>location tracking would require transmitting the tower ID's when they
>are heard. I would think that the airline companies would take a dim
>view of this as Google's transmitting anything in an commercial
>airliner in flight could interfere with aircraft navigation, which is
>the purpose of having the Airplane mode. If some airliner falls out
>of the sky due to a navigation error, Google's tracking trickery could
>easily be deemed responsible.
Ever since most airlines have started allowing personal wireless devices
to remain on throughout commercial flights*, it's probably no longer a
big deal.
*Supposedly, not during take-off and landing, while the aircraft is
below 10,000 feet, but I travel very frequently for work and I can't
remember the last time I noticed anyone complying with that request.
As far as I know, there's no evidence to suggest that personal wireless
devices actually interfere with aircraft navigation or operation. The
whole thing, from the start, was done out of an abundance of caution,
not as a result of any specific test results.
wrote:
>However, all this begs another question. Assuming that Wi-Fi is also
>turned off in Airplane mode, what the hell is Google doing
>TRANSMITTING anything? Unless its buffered,
correlation.
>to use the phone for
>location tracking would require transmitting the tower ID's when they
>are heard. I would think that the airline companies would take a dim
>view of this as Google's transmitting anything in an commercial
>airliner in flight could interfere with aircraft navigation, which is
>the purpose of having the Airplane mode. If some airliner falls out
>of the sky due to a navigation error, Google's tracking trickery could
>easily be deemed responsible.
to remain on throughout commercial flights*, it's probably no longer a
big deal.
*Supposedly, not during take-off and landing, while the aircraft is
below 10,000 feet, but I travel very frequently for work and I can't
remember the last time I noticed anyone complying with that request.
As far as I know, there's no evidence to suggest that personal wireless
devices actually interfere with aircraft navigation or operation. The
whole thing, from the start, was done out of an abundance of caution,
not as a result of any specific test results.
Jeff Liebermann
Nov 22, 2017, 6:43:40 PM11/22/17
to
>However, all this begs another question. Assuming that Wi-Fi is also
>turned off in Airplane mode, what the hell is Google doing
>TRANSMITTING anything?
I've been working too hard and have screwed up. I somehow assumed
>turned off in Airplane mode, what the hell is Google doing
>TRANSMITTING anything?
that it was Airplane Mode that was turned off, not Location Services.
They're quite different.
Just ignore me. Maybe a turkey overdose will help.
olds...@tubes.com
Nov 22, 2017, 8:20:32 PM11/22/17
to
On Tue, 21 Nov 2017 22:40:17 +0000 (UTC), harry newton
<ha...@is.invalid> wrote:
>Since the beginning of 2017, Android phones have been collecting the
>addresses of nearby cellular towers+IBQ-even when location services are
>disabled+IBQ-and sending that data back to Google.
>
>Google was apparently collecting cell tower data from all modern Android
>devices before being contacted by Quartz. A source familiar with the matter
>said the cell tower addresses were being sent to Google after a change in
>early 2017 to the Firebase Cloud Messaging service, which is owned by
>Google and runs on Android phones by default.
>
>Devices with a cellular data or WiFi connection appear to send the data to
>Google each time they come within range of a new cell tower. When Android
>devices are connected to a WiFi network, they will send the tower addresses
>to Google even if they don+IBk-t have SIM cards installed.
>
>Android devices never offered consumers a way to opt out of the collection
>of cell tower data.
Google is 'NOT' your friend !
<ha...@is.invalid> wrote:
>Since the beginning of 2017, Android phones have been collecting the
>addresses of nearby cellular towers+IBQ-even when location services are
>disabled+IBQ-and sending that data back to Google.
>
>Google was apparently collecting cell tower data from all modern Android
>devices before being contacted by Quartz. A source familiar with the matter
>said the cell tower addresses were being sent to Google after a change in
>early 2017 to the Firebase Cloud Messaging service, which is owned by
>Google and runs on Android phones by default.
>
>Devices with a cellular data or WiFi connection appear to send the data to
>Google each time they come within range of a new cell tower. When Android
>devices are connected to a WiFi network, they will send the tower addresses
>to Google even if they don+IBk-t have SIM cards installed.
>
>Android devices never offered consumers a way to opt out of the collection
>of cell tower data.
amdx
Nov 28, 2017, 1:36:41 PM11/28/17
to
On 11/22/2017 5:43 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 09:32:54 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>> However, all this begs another question. Assuming that Wi-Fi is also
>> turned off in Airplane mode, what the hell is Google doing
>> TRANSMITTING anything?
>
> I've been working too hard and have screwed up. I somehow assumed
> that it was Airplane Mode that was turned off, not Location Services.
> They're quite different.
>
> Just ignore me. Maybe a turkey overdose will help.
>
Here's a video showing all the travel the phone owner did, his voice
> On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 09:32:54 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>> However, all this begs another question. Assuming that Wi-Fi is also
>> turned off in Airplane mode, what the hell is Google doing
>> TRANSMITTING anything?
>
> I've been working too hard and have screwed up. I somehow assumed
> that it was Airplane Mode that was turned off, not Location Services.
> They're quite different.
>
> Just ignore me. Maybe a turkey overdose will help.
>
messages, many things. He shows how to stop it and if you want to stop
all of it.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xgLhjTLn7Q
Interesting video,
Mikek
tabb...@gmail.com
Nov 28, 2017, 7:42:15 PM11/28/17
to
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