Washing machine controls

[bob prohaska]

I'm faced with buying a new washing machine and very uneasy
about the electronic controls used today. Does anybody have
experience getting service information for popular brands
like LG, GE or Speed Queen? Dealers won't even talk about
service information and I couldn't find much of anything on
manufacturer's websites.

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska

[Jon Elson]

bob prohaska wrote:

> I'm faced with buying a new washing machine and very uneasy
> about the electronic controls used today. Does anybody have
> experience getting service information for popular brands
> like LG, GE or Speed Queen? Dealers won't even talk about
> service information and I couldn't find much of anything on
> manufacturer's websites.

AVOID the Korean machines (LG and Samsung) at all costs. They are designed
to fall apart at less than 3 years. Parts and repair info are hard to come
by. I've got a 12 year old Kenmore that has had its share of problems, but
I have been able to keep it running with a little bit of effort.
Relays burned out on the control board, drain pumps have worn out, and I've
replaced the main bearing and seal several times. I did get hold of the
maintenance manual from a kindly service guy who was, I guess, embarrassed
that I already knew more about it than he did. It has some diagnostic
procedures you get into by holding down three buttons at once. Quite
helpful to figure out what is wrong.

My daughter's roommate has a Samsung that started giving the unbalanced load
error on every wash. As best as we can tell, the ball joints that support
the tub are designed to give damping friction when new, and as soon as that
friction surface wears smooth, the machine will never work again. That took
a little over a year. No service people will come out and work on it.
Some people have reported putting blankets around the tub to restore
damping.

Jon

[Peter W.]

It depends.
a) Purchase from a reliable dealer that either has service in-house or can show you a service agreement. Around here, that would be Best Buy, Gerhard's Appliances and several others. Not Home Depot. And if you wish to be sure, purchase the extended warranty.
b) Read the directions on set-up, loading and other niceties. They are not overly complicated, but it does help to do it correctly.
c) If the unit has a sump, clean it regularly - at least quarterly. Not cleaning the sump is what destroys drain pumps.
d) Get the features you need and will use - and NO MORE than those features. IOW, eschew needless complexity.

We have an LG that is now a year old, replacing a floor-model LG that went at 12 years of heavy use. And not from electronics, motors or such, but of all things rust.
At our summer house, we have a 15 year old LG that also has a bit of rust, but is still going strong otherwise. We purchased it used - see pump, below - for $75.
We went with the LG units as they use (when purchased) the least water, and require the least detergent to do a good wash. At the summer house, we have well water, and we are on a Class A natural (not stocked) trout stream, so the issue of water use and discharge quality is critical. We have never had any issues with the electronics or drive motors, I replaced one (1) pump at US$29.00. From Amazon and about an hour to install.

As an aside, there are You-Tube videos on about every aspect of maintaining about every sort of appliance, and about any part you might think of is readily available out there - at least in the USA - usually at reasonable costs as compared to a new unit.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Phil Hobbs]

We have a front-loading LG that has been great for a decade now.

Bosch dishwashers, don't get me started.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

[Rheilly Phoull]

Ahh! it all seems to be a lottery to me. Naturally enough there are most
posts by folks who got a lemon and for every such there will also be one
saying well I had such and such for 20 years etc. We have had a Bosch
dishwasher for many years now with no problems but then again there are
many models also. You win some and lose some IMHO.

[Bennett]

FWIW, Consumer Reports gives Predicted Reliability scores to washing
machines - no distinction between controls and everything else that can
break. Ratings are for particular models but in general:

Conventional top loaders - best are Speed Queen, Hotpoint and Roper
High Efficiency top loaders - best is LG
Front Loaders - best are LG, Electrolux, Kenmore

[bob prohaska]

Bennett <bjp...@cal.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
> FWIW, Consumer Reports gives Predicted Reliability scores to washing
> machines - no distinction between controls and everything else that can
> break. Ratings are for particular models but in general:
>
> Conventional top loaders - best are Speed Queen, Hotpoint and Roper
> High Efficiency top loaders - best is LG
> Front Loaders - best are LG, Electrolux, Kenmore

I'm surprised the results aren't more consistent between manufacturers.
And, at least a _little_ more consistent anecdotally.

Maybe it really is a crapshoot.

Thanks for writing!

bob prohaska

[bob prohaska]

I take it nobody has had much success obtaining service manuals?

[Peter W.]

Rant Warning Rant Warning

Appliances require care and feeding, generally in direct proportion to their complexity. One upon a time, the typical Maytag top-loading washer had a timer driving a layered switch with an eccentric series of contacts activating a series of soleboid valves and relays that operated a motor, a pump, and a transmission. Perhaps half-a-dozen assemblies operating without any sort of software at all. No silliness such as weight sensors, dryness sensors, dirt sensors nor much of anything else along those lines other than *perhaps* a door/lid switch so that the system shut down when the top was opened. Oh, and it would use up to forty (40) gallons of water for a single load. Big ones used more. They could be overloaded, they could get unbalanced and much more, And, they would leave between one (1) and three (3) of water behind for the dryer to work with.

Now, they have more computing power than the original Space Shuttle, use between four (4) and eight (8) gallons of water to do more clothing, and leave only a very few ounces of water behind after spinning. And they do not care about balance much.

There is a price to be paid for all this efficiency, however. They need to be level. Really level. With a proper level, level. Fore and aft, starboard and port. That also means with the feet each bearing properly. This does not happen much. I know of two such washers that were installed properly initially. One in this house, by Best Buy, bless them! Their installer took a full 10 minutes with the level to get it 'just so' (and did not take a tip!), and the other at our summer house. I redid both the kids' machines after so-called 'professional' installation. They need to have the sump cleaned regularly, every quarter in the typical house, every week if small kids are involved with Lego pieces, coins, marbles and such. They need to use the proper detergent, and in the proper quantities. NO, more detergent will NOT make it cleaner. NO, fabric softener does NOT help clothing last longer, nor is it good for the machine. Just a lot more lint in the sump. Yes, they DO like really hot water once in a while to remove scum. Add a bit of ammonia to help.

Dishwashers have similar foibles, but with different emphases.

There is no reason whatsoever that a well maintained modern appliance should not last 30+ years with scrupulous maintenance. Well until the original purchaser is either tired of it, or has moved out or worse. My general contention is that if an appliance makes it through its first two years, then it is not a lemon. Excepting that generation of LG appliances that rust badly, of course.

[Peter W.]

https://servicemanuals.us/lg/washing-machine/category.html

[bob prohaska]

Peter W. <peterw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> https://servicemanuals.us/lg/washing-machine/category.html
>

Interesting site, but kinda hard to browse. It looks as if the
manuals are identified only by part number, not applicable model.

The few I looked at were 24" wide compacts. Maybe it's aimed at
a non-US market. Also, they seem to want subscriptions via PayPal.

Thanks for the link, I wish they had manuals for more brands.

bob prohaska

[Ron D.]

I don't have any new stuff. I don't want them. I have A 43 YO gas dryer. Right now, I have to replace the unobtainable ignitor I have about 6 spares. I found out, I can manually light it with a spark for a short time before it finally won;t light at all.

Not too long ago, I did a major rebuild and really discovered that I need to do a major PM every 5 years and a minor one yearly, so i made that much easier to do.

There is a bearing around the fan. If it fails, all sorts of problems happen. I don;t know how to 3- print the seal. but in 40 years, the grease dried out. The NOS replacement had to have the grease replaced. What would really help is a electronic slip detector for the blower. I re-did the grease and changed the set screw to a brass-tipped one. I would like the set screw to fail.

I still need to re-build the lint catcher. I'll try to take some more measurements when I put the ignitor back in. I;ll even try to determine the wire used, cold resistance, hot resistance, voltage and current.

What I did on the last rebuild is I made it possible to remove the blower assembly easily by adding about 8 thumb screws and rivet nuts. On the previous service, I put rivet nuts on the outer panels.

The washer spits out the lint and clogs the drain. So, i made a proof-of-concept external sock filter and then borrowed a friend's lathe and made it really easy to clean the sock.

So, the most important thing, i think you can do for an electronic appliance is to add surge suppression. I did that to a Carrier AC and I had mechanical button problems on the thermostat. The electrical problem was a wierd one where the backlight continued to stay on. The fix was to turn the HVAC system off for about 3 weeks and add surge suppression. Earlier I had to add a filter because the ECM motor was interfereing and breaking power line controls like X-10. The surge suppressor was a bidirectional 24VAC rated TVS diode installed at the furnace. A $2.00 part.

I have a story which really bothered me. Tracor-Northern had a multi-channel analyzer that we were using on an SEM (Scanning Electron Microscope) to make a crude EDS (electron dispersive x-ray analyzer) and it died twice repair was like $1000 for a $5000 USD instrument. It died after a storm. We had the schematic and there was absolutely no power line protection. I added an ISOBAR and no more problems. Tracor-Northern said their specs said 120V 60Hz for power and we and we obviosly exceeded that.

The best surge suppression so far is a power conditioner (Isolation transformer) AND a a surge supressor from OneAC/ Powervat such as the ISOBAR, That method outperforms everything short of a UPS. The ISOBAR give you a connected equipment warranty and they honor it. I;d use it for a washer/dryer.

Sometimes, surge suppression can be cheap and other times expensive.

Whole house is also possible with and without an isolation transformer. With an isolation transformer the magnetocs limit the high frequency from getting to the other side. A word about isolation. It is and it isn't. The neutral-ground bond isre-made after the transformer.

Maybe the washer guys should put all of the relays on a separate, replaceable board.

Power Condition, save the receipt, exercise the protected equipment Warranty.

[Tim R]

On Thursday, March 25, 2021 at 1:51:19 PM UTC-4, Peter W. wrote:
> Rant Warning Rant Warning
>
> Appliances require care and feeding, generally in direct proportion to their complexity. One upon a time, the typical Maytag top-loading washer had a timer driving a layered switch with an eccentric series of contacts activating a series of soleboid valves and relays that operated a motor, a pump, and a transmission.

Mine is 31 years old, I think.
My fear with the modern versions is that with all the electronic controls they become vulnerable to power supply glitches.

Speed Queen still makes a commercial quality washer available to consumers. It costs more, a lot more, but sometimes you get what you pay for.

The best way to have clothes last longer while still getting them clean is supposed to be cold water, long presoak, and short wash cycle.

[Rob]

Peter W. <peterw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> We have an LG that is now a year old, replacing a floor-model LG that went at 12 years of heavy use. And not from electronics, motors or such, but of all things rust.
> At our summer house, we have a 15 year old LG that also has a bit of rust, but is still going strong otherwise. We purchased it used - see pump, below - for $75.

Is LG that crappy? I had a 35 year old Bosch that did not have the
slightest bit of rust, but it had a failed draining pump. I obtained
a new pump from a recycling shop, but when I handled the machine to
put it on its side for easier access to the pump the plastic control
panel shattered and for practical reasons I had to replace the machine.

[Three Jeeps]

+1 on avoid the Korean brands for washers, dryers, and fridges.
It used to be that sears/kenmore were built by Whirpool (for the most part). A recent investigation for a new fridge revealed it was made by a little known second tier Korean mfg (can't remember the name). Googling 'who makes sears appliance xxxx' will turn up a cross reference sheet of sears numbers to their manufactures but take it with a grain of salt as sears changes suppliers and it may not always reflect the current mfg.

I suggest spending time doing searches of '''the brand you are interested in' problems" This will usually turn up types of problems for each mfg appliance. After you get enough input, you can decide what mfg and probability and types of failures you think you want to take a chance on.
My experience in both living with and repairing washers and electric dryers, my suggestions are Kenmore (if you are OK with who makes it) GE, and Maytag.
The electronic control modules of 5-8 years ago were somewhat repairable depending on the failure. In almost all cases that I've seen, the cost of the control module varies from ~ $130 USD to $200. A bit ridicules for what is in there, IMHO. Throw in $100 for a repair call and just about any repair is half the cost of a new machine.

For what ever reason, the cost of GE replacement parts seem abnormally high with a wide price variability, depending on the outlet.
Caveat: My sample size is from maintaining my family and some relatives machines over the last 15 years (so its small) - its not that I have a full time appliance repair biz.
You may want to check out Consumer report ratings for estimated reliability which is based on historical data they have.
Recent attempts to buy both a fridge and washing machine showed lead times of 3-4 months for certain brands and styles. They all blame COVID.
Bigbox stores had low/bad inventory as compared to local appliance stores, but they were all saying longer delays than normal
good luck
J

[Three Jeeps]

My experience is FSMs are almost impossible to come by unless you are 'in the biz'. Many of the online part suppliers have diagnostic guidance for machines in general, and some provide specific mfg/model help. You tube postings can be useful....they tend to post about failure modes that are common, such as ' relay solder joints that melt away because of high current through a contact'....
Good luck
J

[Jon Elson]

Three Jeeps wrote:


> For what ever reason, the cost of GE replacement parts seem abnormally
> high with a wide price variability, depending on the outlet.

Yes, I should have mentioned before that Marcone is a great resource, they
have parts for LOTS of old appliances, and the price is usually reasonable.

They are a chain of warehouses across the US, and are glad to sell to
individuals.

Jon

[Cydrome Leader]

Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com> wrote:
> bob prohaska wrote:
>
>> I'm faced with buying a new washing machine and very uneasy
>> about the electronic controls used today. Does anybody have
>> experience getting service information for popular brands
>> like LG, GE or Speed Queen? Dealers won't even talk about
>> service information and I couldn't find much of anything on
>> manufacturer's websites.
> AVOID the Korean machines (LG and Samsung) at all costs. They are designed
> to fall apart at less than 3 years. Parts and repair info are hard to come
> by. I've got a 12 year old Kenmore that has had its share of problems, but
> I have been able to keep it running with a little bit of effort.
> Relays burned out on the control board, drain pumps have worn out, and I've
> replaced the main bearing and seal several times. I did get hold of the
> maintenance manual from a kindly service guy who was, I guess, embarrassed
> that I already knew more about it than he did. It has some diagnostic
> procedures you get into by holding down three buttons at once. Quite
> helpful to figure out what is wrong.

This. Do not buy foreign made appliances. No parts, no support. Make note
that the GE name was sold to the chi-coms and if the product was not made
in the US, good luck.

[Cydrome Leader]

bullshit.

30 years out of an italian designed/ made dishwasher? no fucking way, not
even in a musueum. 2 years, maybe, if you replace all parts every year.

Refrigerators are the machines that need the least maintance of anything
with moving parts and even the 10 years is a good run these days. Hell,
many don't even make it that far before they have problems with freezing
up and condensation/pissing all over the floor. This garbage design is no
accident.

Residential gas furnaces are usually pretty fixable. Just wait until
AC/inverter drive blower motors start to become common though.

[Cydrome Leader]

The dryer is where clothes fall apart. Air dry, if you can. Just check how
much lint collects on a dryer screen vs. sock on the washing machine
discharge hose.

[Bennett Price]

In re: Service / Shop Manuals To service an old Kenmore top loader
that was completely dead, I searched for shop manuals as I wanted the
schematic. Was able to find one for $10. But I decided to first open
up the control panel and take a look.

Inside was a printed manual with schematic, timing diagrams, diagnostics
for some of the controls, etc. Additionally, in tiny print a schematic
was pasted to the inside rear of the control panel.

Turned out the wall socket, which I should have checked first, was dead
and the washing machine was fine.

[Cydrome Leader]

Even if the fault was inside the unit, you'd likely be able to easily fix
the thing due to good documentation and parts supply.

I just looked at an LG electric oven service manual. It goes on and on
about all the places the solder connections will crack. It's sort of sad
actually. The guide is clearly written to satisfy quick and dirty warranty
repairs.

[bob prohaska]

Tim R <timot...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Speed Queen still makes a commercial quality washer available to consumers. It costs more, a lot more, but sometimes you get what you pay for.
>

I _really_ hope that's true, because I ended up buying a Speed Queen.
Whether I fell for the hype or made a good choice will take a long time
to learn. Price was roughly the same from the local dealer as for an on
line purchase, the dealer has a parts and service department that maybe
will be helpful. For even money, I went local.

> The best way to have clothes last longer while still getting them clean is supposed to be cold water, long presoak, and short wash cycle.

I'd suggest that tumble drying is a major source of wear; just look in
the lint trap. A short wash cycle won't hurt, if it gets things clean
enough. On that basis I elected to keep the old dryer, which is almost
never used, and spend the savings on a better washing machine.

The service manual question is still unresolved. I did notice that
Dexter Laundry puts their manuals on-line gratis, but they don't
have much of a dealer network and the machines are rather large.
If there's need, maybe my dealer's service department will help.

Thanks to everybody who replied, this was a most interesting thread!

bob prohaska