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TV Picture: What Does "Calibration" Mean???
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thekma...@gmail.com
Oct 21, 2015, 8:13:42 AM10/21/15
to
TV Picture: What Does "Calibration" Mean???
Calibration. To calibrate.
With regards to TV sets - of any type - I suspect two things
have stood in the way of this process: #1. Most set owners
and folks in general, outside of the scientific community,
don't know what the dang word even means! And #2. Modern
digital TVs are so "good" most people think they don't even
need calibration.
Succinctly, calibration means to align something to a given
standard, or set of standards. These standards may be
physical, electrical, chemical, or in the case of image
reproduction, a certain range of color and brightness when
standardized patterns are displayed on a TV.
==========
The way I have recently started to explain what I do to
TVs to the average person is to draw a basic shape on a
piece of paper, I.E. a triangle. To the right of that I draw an
arrow, then a rectangular box, another arrow, and a blank
space.
I then show this to the person, explaining that the triangle
is the subject on TV, and the box is their TV set. I then
ask them what should they see to the right of all that, after
it comes out of their TV set. They answer, "a triangle"?
So I draw a circle! (or, a distorted triangle)
The person looks at me, "what?"
I tell them, without calibration, this is what your TV does
to the image of subjects transmitted to it, via inaccurate
color, off tint, or too bright or incorrect contrast. Your
TV may wow you out of the box, but that factory setting
was intended to SELL IT to you, not for long-term TV or
movie viewing, or game playing. Plus, it may shorten the
set's life.
I then explain the two types of calibration: Basic(brightness,
contrast, sharpness, color, tint - the basic user controls),
and, advanced(Basic, plus internal color temperature and
grayscale alignment.). I then explain that most reputable
brands of TVs today(Sony, JVC, Samsung, Pioneer) will
deliver an accurate picture with just the basic controls properly
set. Cheapo brands(Daewoo, Insignia), or older CRT(tube)
TVs might need more advanced additional adjustments to
get them in line.
If they ask me what all this will do, I tell them: You will see,
if not exactly, an image much closer to what the producer or
tv control room engineers see when they make a TV show
or a movie. Plus, the image will be far less stressful to the
eye, and you might even save energy!
==========
This usually sells them, instead of just asking them,
would you like your TV "calibrated"?
Calibration is a big, nerdy, multi-syllable word that few
understand, and perhaps shouldn't even be used to
describe the process of aligning a display and making
it transparent to whatever is shown on it.
No WONDER "display calibration" or "tv calibration"
has fallen out of favor!
Waiting for the crickets ....
thekma...@gmail.com - Switch accounts - Desktop
jurb...@gmail.com
Oct 21, 2015, 3:59:25 PM10/21/15
to
Well that's all fine and good, but why did you use the form of a question in the title ?
Anyway, there is a disk out there called "Video Essentials" which is supposedly a great aid in doing that. However, for an accurate greyscale you need something to which to compare. For video cameras they had what were called lightboxes which supposedly had a specific color temperature. With a monitor, maybe you can compare to a high brightness piece of paper lit by a lamp with a specific color temperature. Or perhaps sunlight.
Though things can run off still, it is nowhere near as bad as CRTs were. If they weren't burned in enough after cathode activation they would drift, and later those miniature cathodes got hotter with increased beam current and drifted, necessitating AKB. (Auto Kine Balance) And then there is convergence and purity. The Earth's magnetic field affected the purity quite a bit, and convergence to a lesser degree, except on projection TVs.
The LCD TVs do not really have these problems, they are going to inherently be more accurate out of the box. Same with plasmas but the phosphors in a plasma can weaken with age like any other phosphor. Someone told me the gas in them wears out, and that reduces color temperature. I do not believe it, that should affect all colors equally. I think the blue phosphor wears out first. Blue phosphors are the least efficient and therefore will get more drive.
While there are no cathodes, the phosphor does still burn in and weaken with heavy use.
There is no convergence or purity adjustment on plasma or LCD (which includes what they call LED now). Greyscale and color demodulation, are all there is, and with other than NTSC (composite or SVHS) there is no color demodulation either.
Anyway, there is a disk out there called "Video Essentials" which is supposedly a great aid in doing that. However, for an accurate greyscale you need something to which to compare. For video cameras they had what were called lightboxes which supposedly had a specific color temperature. With a monitor, maybe you can compare to a high brightness piece of paper lit by a lamp with a specific color temperature. Or perhaps sunlight.
Though things can run off still, it is nowhere near as bad as CRTs were. If they weren't burned in enough after cathode activation they would drift, and later those miniature cathodes got hotter with increased beam current and drifted, necessitating AKB. (Auto Kine Balance) And then there is convergence and purity. The Earth's magnetic field affected the purity quite a bit, and convergence to a lesser degree, except on projection TVs.
The LCD TVs do not really have these problems, they are going to inherently be more accurate out of the box. Same with plasmas but the phosphors in a plasma can weaken with age like any other phosphor. Someone told me the gas in them wears out, and that reduces color temperature. I do not believe it, that should affect all colors equally. I think the blue phosphor wears out first. Blue phosphors are the least efficient and therefore will get more drive.
While there are no cathodes, the phosphor does still burn in and weaken with heavy use.
There is no convergence or purity adjustment on plasma or LCD (which includes what they call LED now). Greyscale and color demodulation, are all there is, and with other than NTSC (composite or SVHS) there is no color demodulation either.
thekma...@gmail.com
Oct 21, 2015, 7:32:07 PM10/21/15
to
jurb...@gmail.com wrote: "Well that's all fine and good, but why did you use the form of a question in the title?"
Because it seems in the last 10 years calibration, or at least the
very concept of it, is becoming marginalized, less relevant. The
occurrence of the word "calibration" has dropped significantly
since the early 2000s according to searches I conducted in
usenet groups related to video technology and production.
I sincerely want to share my calibration experiences with others
because I'm so excited by what it has done for my TV and video
viewing experience. My problem is adjusting my "elevator speech"
so that the common man(woman) 'get' what calibration does for
their equipment and their viewing.
Because it seems in the last 10 years calibration, or at least the
very concept of it, is becoming marginalized, less relevant. The
occurrence of the word "calibration" has dropped significantly
since the early 2000s according to searches I conducted in
usenet groups related to video technology and production.
I sincerely want to share my calibration experiences with others
because I'm so excited by what it has done for my TV and video
viewing experience. My problem is adjusting my "elevator speech"
so that the common man(woman) 'get' what calibration does for
their equipment and their viewing.
stra...@yahoo.com
Oct 22, 2015, 12:37:13 AM10/22/15
to
I've worked in broadcast and post production since 1976 and calibrated many monitors, some used for THX film transfers and verified by their tech. Calibration was mandatory with CRT monitors and on a regular basis. The new TVs are amazingly consistent and I find no desire and certainly no need to 'tweak' them. In fact, unless you're very qualified I would not allow you to touch my TV.
G²
thekma...@gmail.com
Oct 22, 2015, 4:24:35 AM10/22/15
to
stra...@yahoo.com wrote: "
The new TVs are amazingly consistent and I find no desire and certainly no need to 'tweak' them.
In fact, unless you're very qualified I would not allow you to touch my TV.
G² "
So if I understand you correctly, If you were to buy a brand new
The new TVs are amazingly consistent and I find no desire and certainly no need to 'tweak' them.
In fact, unless you're very qualified I would not allow you to touch my TV.
G² "
flat panel set, connect it all up and start watching it, you would
leave the user menu settings all in their factory positions?
pf...@aol.com
Oct 22, 2015, 8:19:55 AM10/22/15
to
That would be my take on the use of that term-of-art for our particular unit.
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
thekma...@gmail.com
Oct 22, 2015, 9:29:41 AM10/22/15
to
pf...@aol.com wrote: "- show quoted text -
settings on consumer TVs such as your Panasonic and
on my Samsung LED are not ideal for extended viewing.
"Calibrating" in that case allows the user to set the color range, average brightness and similar parameters to a more reasonable setting. One can purchase a 'kit' to help with this, and/or use other means to get the colors true. Once done, as otherwise noted, the system seems to remain remarkably stable, even through power-failures. "
And you agree with calibration in your particular case. I
did notice that you seem to think that calibration is some-
thing that must be done periodically(every year or two for
example).
That may have applied in the case of CRT-based TVs or
projectors, yes. But not with modern digital flat technology
- UNLESS - you change one of your input sources, or
upgrade, I.E. from a standard DVD to a Blu-Ray deck.
You then recalibrate that input for that device. I tell
all of my customers this: that their calibrated settings
should not drift for at least a decade. :)
"That would be my take on the use of that term-of-art for our particular unit. "
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA "
Not sure what you mean by "term of art".
Please elaborate.
> thekma...@gmail.com - Switch accounts - Desktop
That would depend. We have a Panasonic Plasma TV - the factory settings are *very* bright and the color mix verges on the cartoonish. "
So you have observed, and agree, that factory default
That would depend. We have a Panasonic Plasma TV - the factory settings are *very* bright and the color mix verges on the cartoonish. "
settings on consumer TVs such as your Panasonic and
on my Samsung LED are not ideal for extended viewing.
"Calibrating" in that case allows the user to set the color range, average brightness and similar parameters to a more reasonable setting. One can purchase a 'kit' to help with this, and/or use other means to get the colors true. Once done, as otherwise noted, the system seems to remain remarkably stable, even through power-failures. "
did notice that you seem to think that calibration is some-
thing that must be done periodically(every year or two for
example).
That may have applied in the case of CRT-based TVs or
projectors, yes. But not with modern digital flat technology
- UNLESS - you change one of your input sources, or
upgrade, I.E. from a standard DVD to a Blu-Ray deck.
You then recalibrate that input for that device. I tell
all of my customers this: that their calibrated settings
should not drift for at least a decade. :)
"That would be my take on the use of that term-of-art for our particular unit. "
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA "
Please elaborate.
pf...@aol.com
Oct 22, 2015, 2:17:34 PM10/22/15
to
On Thursday, October 22, 2015 at 9:29:41 AM UTC-4, thekma...@gmail.com wrote:
> And you agree with calibration in your particular case. I
> did notice that you seem to think that calibration is some-
> thing that must be done periodically(every year or two for
> example).
No, I stated that the settings, once done, were remarkably stable, even through power-failures. I did have to re-calibrate after a 6-day failure (Hurricane Sandy), but not for failures as long as several hours.
> And you agree with calibration in your particular case. I
> did notice that you seem to think that calibration is some-
> thing that must be done periodically(every year or two for
> example).
>
> That may have applied in the case of CRT-based TVs or
> projectors, yes. But not with modern digital flat technology
> - UNLESS - you change one of your input sources, or
> upgrade, I.E. from a standard DVD to a Blu-Ray deck.
> You then recalibrate that input for that device. I tell
> all of my customers this: that their calibrated settings
> should not drift for at least a decade. :)
>
I have not experienced that need - we switched about 2 years ago from a basic DVD player to a compatible, self-upgrading blue-ray DVD with no visible need to re-calibrate - and the software with the kit verified this.
> That may have applied in the case of CRT-based TVs or
> projectors, yes. But not with modern digital flat technology
> - UNLESS - you change one of your input sources, or
> upgrade, I.E. from a standard DVD to a Blu-Ray deck.
> You then recalibrate that input for that device. I tell
> all of my customers this: that their calibrated settings
> should not drift for at least a decade. :)
>
>
> "That would be my take on the use of that term-of-art for our particular unit. "
> Not sure what you mean by "term of art".
> Please elaborate.
Term-of-Art: A word, combination of words or phrase specific to one thing that is used outside of its common definition. To me the term "calibrate" is specific to measuring devices, meters, tube testers, signal generators, rotameters, gauges and so forth that are set to a specific standard such that measurements from them can be trusted. I would not generally consider arbitrary settings based, in part, on taste rather than independent standards, would be any sort of 'calibration'. At least, again, as I understand and would normally use the term. There are those that prefer bright settings and cartoonish colors. De gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum. Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
> Please elaborate.
thekma...@gmail.com
Oct 22, 2015, 2:58:02 PM10/22/15
to
"me the term "calibrate" is specific to measuring devices, meters, tube testers, signal generators, rotameters, gauges and so forth that are set to a specific standard."
Likewise! DVD test patterns also count,
as long as one follows instructions on
what to look for when the specific
control(brightness, contrast) is adjusted
optimally.
I still sense a lot of skepticism in your
responses regarding display ALIGNMENT -
there, I just found a new name for it that
makes sense! :)
Likewise! DVD test patterns also count,
as long as one follows instructions on
what to look for when the specific
control(brightness, contrast) is adjusted
optimally.
I still sense a lot of skepticism in your
responses regarding display ALIGNMENT -
there, I just found a new name for it that
makes sense! :)
whit3rd
Oct 22, 2015, 3:14:59 PM10/22/15
to
On Wednesday, October 21, 2015 at 9:37:13 PM UTC-7, stra...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I've worked in broadcast and post production since 1976 and calibrated many monitors, some used for THX film transfers and verified by their tech. Calibration was mandatory with CRT monitors and on a regular basis. The new TVs are amazingly consistent and I find no desire and certainly no need to 'tweak' them. In fact, unless you're very qualified I would not allow you to touch my TV.
Generally, there's no calibration in an LCD TV that requires touching. Digital signal,
> I've worked in broadcast and post production since 1976 and calibrated many monitors, some used for THX film transfers and verified by their tech. Calibration was mandatory with CRT monitors and on a regular basis. The new TVs are amazingly consistent and I find no desire and certainly no need to 'tweak' them. In fact, unless you're very qualified I would not allow you to touch my TV.
not affected by movable magnets or variable resistors.
If you use your TV for a computer monitor, though, and have a color printer:
you ought to calibrate the video card or the printer driver so that the
color prints produce the same colors as the screen display.
Getting the correspondence right is important for artistic uses,
and requires
(1) controlling reflected light off the screen
(2) getting as much color gamut and contrast on the screen as on the paper (not
easy, might require special paper)
(3) controlling the illumination light when viewing printed material
(4) adjusting R, G, B zero points
(5) adjusting R, G, B brightnesses
(6) adjusting for any nonlinearity (usually called 'gamma correction') for R, G, B
(7) readjusting from time to time, as papers, inks, phosphors may age.
It can be hard to find and rectify any adjustments. Or, it can be easy - Apple made a
ColorSync monitor with internal light sensors that did recalibration in a few seconds if you pressed
the front-panel button).
pf...@aol.com
Oct 22, 2015, 3:21:25 PM10/22/15
to
Alignment: My primary hobby is vintage radio restoration and repair, so "alignment" is a very specific term. Shifting that term from rF to Visual alignment is not a stretch, just not what leaped to mind when I read your assignment of this term to that process. Telescope people call it "collimation", musicians call it "tuning" but they are all forms of aligning some sort of information for greater accuracy/clarity.
stra...@yahoo.com
Oct 22, 2015, 6:07:05 PM10/22/15
to
On Thursday, October 22, 2015 at 1:24:35 AM UTC-7, thekma...@gmail.com wrote:
> So if I understand you correctly, If you were to buy a brand new
> flat panel set, connect it all up and start watching it, you would
> leave the user menu settings all in their factory positions?
No. That looked bad because it was in 'store demo' mode. I don't consider the 'user adjustments' namely brightness, contrast, saturation (color), back light and sharpness to fall into the 'calibration' category. Calibration to me involves individual RGB gain, lift and gamma. These were finicky with CRTs but don't need much if any tweaking with LED lit LCD sets.
> So if I understand you correctly, If you were to buy a brand new
> flat panel set, connect it all up and start watching it, you would
> leave the user menu settings all in their factory positions?
G²
thekma...@gmail.com
Oct 22, 2015, 6:09:17 PM10/22/15
to
whit3rd wrote: "Generally, there's no calibration in an LCD TV that requires touching.
brand new flat panel TV for your home, would you leave the user
and semi-advanced settings in their factory mode? Have you
actually seen a TV(any TV, CRT, Plasma, LED, etc) in its factory
defaults?
Again, I'm talking about the SETTINGS, not the broadcast or cable
signal fed into the back of it. And no, for the purposes of this dis-
cussion, there is no concern of "drift" because we are in the micro-
circuit digital realm.
Digital signal, not affected by movable magnets or variable resistors. "
So I will ask you the same question: If you bought and unboxed a
brand new flat panel TV for your home, would you leave the user
and semi-advanced settings in their factory mode? Have you
actually seen a TV(any TV, CRT, Plasma, LED, etc) in its factory
defaults?
Again, I'm talking about the SETTINGS, not the broadcast or cable
signal fed into the back of it. And no, for the purposes of this dis-
cussion, there is no concern of "drift" because we are in the micro-
circuit digital realm.
thekma...@gmail.com
Oct 22, 2015, 9:38:36 PM10/22/15
to
Your silence on this subject speaks
volumes. Out of the box, a new con-
sumer grade TV is like staring at the
midday sun for a half-hour to an hour.
It is typically set to "Vivid" or "Dynamic"
mode, which is useful only for display
in a retail sales floor environment.
Contrast, color and sharpness are
cranked, color temperature is skewed
to 10,000+Kelvin - ultra blue, and every
so-called "enhancer" under advanced
settings is checked(skin tone enhancer,
black level enhancer, digital noise re-
duction, etc.) Backlight(if it's a LED or
LCD) is all the way up, etc.
Just taking it out of Vivid, and turning
off all that CRAP in the advance menu
gets you from some vague location in
the South Bronx INTO Yankee Stadium,
in terms of accuracy! The professional
calibration we discussed here will take
you from a seat somewhere in the right-
field upper deck right onto home plate.
And there are no "personal preferences"
when it comes to picture settings - only
one right combination of basic and
advanced controls, and 1,000 possible
WRONG combinations.
it's your choice: Stare at the sun every
night during the 6 o'clock news, or see
what the host and the world through the
cameras really looks like.
volumes. Out of the box, a new con-
sumer grade TV is like staring at the
midday sun for a half-hour to an hour.
It is typically set to "Vivid" or "Dynamic"
mode, which is useful only for display
in a retail sales floor environment.
Contrast, color and sharpness are
cranked, color temperature is skewed
to 10,000+Kelvin - ultra blue, and every
so-called "enhancer" under advanced
settings is checked(skin tone enhancer,
black level enhancer, digital noise re-
duction, etc.) Backlight(if it's a LED or
LCD) is all the way up, etc.
Just taking it out of Vivid, and turning
off all that CRAP in the advance menu
gets you from some vague location in
the South Bronx INTO Yankee Stadium,
in terms of accuracy! The professional
calibration we discussed here will take
you from a seat somewhere in the right-
field upper deck right onto home plate.
And there are no "personal preferences"
when it comes to picture settings - only
one right combination of basic and
advanced controls, and 1,000 possible
WRONG combinations.
it's your choice: Stare at the sun every
night during the 6 o'clock news, or see
what the host and the world through the
cameras really looks like.
isw
Oct 23, 2015, 12:14:20 AM10/23/15
to
In article <208f2024-220b-42d4...@googlegroups.com>,
a much broader gamut than any subtractive color process (i.e. any sort
of image printed on paper). Same with contrast ratio -- the screen wins
by an order of magnitude or better.
Isaac
whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 21, 2015 at 9:37:13 PM UTC-7, stra...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > I've worked in broadcast and post production since 1976 and calibrated many
> > monitors, some used for THX film transfers and verified by their tech.
> > Calibration was mandatory with CRT monitors and on a regular basis. The new
> > TVs are amazingly consistent and I find no desire and certainly no need to
> > 'tweak' them. In fact, unless you're very qualified I would not allow you
> > to touch my TV.
>
> Generally, there's no calibration in an LCD TV that requires touching.
> Digital signal,
> not affected by movable magnets or variable resistors.
> If you use your TV for a computer monitor, though, and have a color printer:
> you ought to calibrate the video card or the printer driver so that the
> color prints produce the same colors as the screen display.
> Getting the correspondence right is important for artistic uses,
> and requires
> (1) controlling reflected light off the screen
> (2) getting as much color gamut and contrast on the screen as on the paper
> (not easy, might require special paper)
I'm pretty sure it's the other way around -- any decent screen will have
> On Wednesday, October 21, 2015 at 9:37:13 PM UTC-7, stra...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > I've worked in broadcast and post production since 1976 and calibrated many
> > monitors, some used for THX film transfers and verified by their tech.
> > Calibration was mandatory with CRT monitors and on a regular basis. The new
> > TVs are amazingly consistent and I find no desire and certainly no need to
> > 'tweak' them. In fact, unless you're very qualified I would not allow you
> > to touch my TV.
>
> Generally, there's no calibration in an LCD TV that requires touching.
> Digital signal,
> not affected by movable magnets or variable resistors.
> If you use your TV for a computer monitor, though, and have a color printer:
> you ought to calibrate the video card or the printer driver so that the
> color prints produce the same colors as the screen display.
> Getting the correspondence right is important for artistic uses,
> and requires
> (1) controlling reflected light off the screen
> (2) getting as much color gamut and contrast on the screen as on the paper
> (not easy, might require special paper)
a much broader gamut than any subtractive color process (i.e. any sort
of image printed on paper). Same with contrast ratio -- the screen wins
by an order of magnitude or better.
Isaac
Cydrome Leader
Oct 23, 2015, 5:36:58 PM10/23/15
to
thekma...@gmail.com wrote:
> Your silence on this subject speaks
> volumes. Out of the box, a new con-
> sumer grade TV is like staring at the
> midday sun for a half-hour to an hour.
>
>
> It is typically set to "Vivid" or "Dynamic"
> mode, which is useful only for display
> in a retail sales floor environment.
> Contrast, color and sharpness are
> cranked, color temperature is skewed
> to 10,000+Kelvin - ultra blue, and every
> so-called "enhancer" under advanced
> settings is checked(skin tone enhancer,
> black level enhancer, digital noise re-
> duction, etc.) Backlight(if it's a LED or
> LCD) is all the way up, etc.
The problem I see with most LCDs is the color temp due to the LED
> Your silence on this subject speaks
> volumes. Out of the box, a new con-
> sumer grade TV is like staring at the
> midday sun for a half-hour to an hour.
>
>
> It is typically set to "Vivid" or "Dynamic"
> mode, which is useful only for display
> in a retail sales floor environment.
> Contrast, color and sharpness are
> cranked, color temperature is skewed
> to 10,000+Kelvin - ultra blue, and every
> so-called "enhancer" under advanced
> settings is checked(skin tone enhancer,
> black level enhancer, digital noise re-
> duction, etc.) Backlight(if it's a LED or
> LCD) is all the way up, etc.
backlighting. Everything is way too cold (blue). Except for that, just
peek in a bar with multiple TVs, they're not perfectly matched, but far
closer than in the days of CRTs or plasma stuff. There's no phosphors or
electron guns to weaken at different rates.
The drift (in everything) in the plasma airport arrival/departure screens
was pretty amazing too, even if you cut some slack for those displays
having been used in the worst possible conditions.
thekma...@gmail.com
Oct 23, 2015, 5:56:22 PM10/23/15
to
The reason you are seeing those "way too cold" color
temperatures is because in the advance settings the
highest/bluest color temperature is set by default!
As for the creature cantina scene - of course the TVs
in there are not matched: different mfgs have different
factory default settings; but what those settings do
have in common is: they were selected to make their
product stand out on a sales floor - NOT to be watched
for any appreciable length of time.
Bet you a five-legged horse that if even just the user
controls(color temp set to neutral instead of high,
backlight on LEDs set in half, and the bright, contrast,
color, sharpness all set via test DVD) you'd be
hard pressed to see any difference between sets at
opposite ends of the bar - assuming they are all
tuned to the same game, as they likely all will
next week for the series.
What more can I do to convince you guys that OOB
(out of the box) settings are no good for a consumer
display, or for your eyes? In fact, I find the factory
"BUY ME, BUY ME!" settings on modern flat panel
TVs are worse than the factory defaults on any old
CRT tube I've EVER seen.
Cydrome Leader
Oct 23, 2015, 6:41:33 PM10/23/15
to
sorts when laptops went from CCFL backlighting to LEDs- the color temp
went way too high. It can probably be adjusted, somehow, but it doesn't
help the color is just wrong to start with.
> As for the creature cantina scene - of course the TVs
> in there are not matched: different mfgs have different
> factory default settings; but what those settings do
> have in common is: they were selected to make their
> product stand out on a sales floor - NOT to be watched
> for any appreciable length of time.
cheapo LCD panels are probably coming out of the same 3 plants. Nobody
cares about special phosphors or dot patterns or shadow masks like in CRT
days. Sure there's cheap and expensive display panels, but they just don't
seem to vary all that much otherwise.
> Bet you a five-legged horse that if even just the user
> controls(color temp set to neutral instead of high,
> backlight on LEDs set in half, and the bright, contrast,
> color, sharpness all set via test DVD) you'd be
> hard pressed to see any difference between sets at
> opposite ends of the bar - assuming they are all
> tuned to the same game, as they likely all will
> next week for the series.
>
> What more can I do to convince you guys that OOB
> (out of the box) settings are no good for a consumer
> display, or for your eyes? In fact, I find the factory
> "BUY ME, BUY ME!" settings on modern flat panel
> TVs are worse than the factory defaults on any old
> CRT tube I've EVER seen.
variations that affected CRTs. Default settings have always been and are
still pretty horrible, but at least these days if you buy a demo LCD TV,
it's safe to say the thing isn't already worn out like a CRT would have
been trying to dazzle customers with every setting turned way up.
For viewing at home, I use an Epson projector that seems to have 3 CCDs
and the starndard arc lamp. I forgot what the default factory settings
were, but they were garish and made even the OSD menu setup hard to look
at. It had to be something like high brightness, 14k color temp and no
doubt some sort of vivid control cranked way up. I did not bother with any
real calibration, but made sure white looked white and the brightness was
reduced so that set so that "black" on the screen looked black, even
though the screen itself is white.
How do you suggest adjusting a projection system?
Michael A. Terrell
Oct 23, 2015, 6:52:05 PM10/23/15
to
something near white light. They fail in that attempt.
thekma...@gmail.com
Oct 23, 2015, 6:58:22 PM10/23/15
to
Cyndrome wrote: "How do you suggest adjusting a projection system? "
A Blu-Ray Digital Video Essentials disc
*should* produce the same results for
your projector as it would for any flat
panel HDTV. Just follow all instructions.
A Blu-Ray Digital Video Essentials disc
*should* produce the same results for
your projector as it would for any flat
panel HDTV. Just follow all instructions.
jurb...@gmail.com
Oct 23, 2015, 11:56:14 PM10/23/15
to
>"The problem I see with most LCDs is the color temp due to the LED
>backlighting. Everything is way too cold (blue). Except for that, >just
>peek in a bar with multiple TVs, they're not perfectly matched, but >far
>closer than in the days of CRTs or plasma stuff. There's no >phosphors or
>electron guns to weaken at different rates."
Most of them now have user color temperature adjustments. That will be at the highest setting when it leaves the factory.
>backlighting. Everything is way too cold (blue). Except for that, >just
>peek in a bar with multiple TVs, they're not perfectly matched, but >far
>closer than in the days of CRTs or plasma stuff. There's no >phosphors or
>electron guns to weaken at different rates."
The LEDS are chosen for the high blue output because to use the display to lower the color temperature is much cheaper than to raise it. In terms of brightness. And it does not react as well as CRTs did. But in both, if you DO want higher color temperature you need to boost the blue. Reducing the red and green is not the right way to do it.
thekma...@gmail.com
Oct 24, 2015, 6:58:18 AM10/24/15
to
jurb...@gmail.com wrote: "Most of them now have user color temperature adjustments. That will
Folks I have come to the conclusion that
the majority of people don't even know these
new-fangled panels HAVE settings or a menu
under which settings can be found. I'm dead
serious. And they live with their TVs looking
like cartoons not knowing that they are getting
only 5% of out of their investment's potential.
A damned SHAME, as is their attitude when I
offer to make it better:
"It's fine the way it is"
"It's brand new; that's the way it's
supposed to look."
"LEAVE IT ALONE"....
And that's the toughest part of
being a calibrator - or at least,
someone who knows better.
be at the highest setting when it leaves the factory.
^Correck!^ :)
Folks I have come to the conclusion that
the majority of people don't even know these
new-fangled panels HAVE settings or a menu
under which settings can be found. I'm dead
serious. And they live with their TVs looking
like cartoons not knowing that they are getting
only 5% of out of their investment's potential.
A damned SHAME, as is their attitude when I
offer to make it better:
"It's fine the way it is"
"It's brand new; that's the way it's
supposed to look."
"LEAVE IT ALONE"....
And that's the toughest part of
being a calibrator - or at least,
someone who knows better.
jurb...@gmail.com
Oct 24, 2015, 12:54:22 PM10/24/15
to
Somewhat like the people who leave their stereo at flat response. the bass and treble controls are there to be used. Every recording is not perfect and every speaker is not perfect, especially in a real room.
How the shoot these new movies and shows annoys me. Color effects, the blacks are green or whatever. And I know it is them because if you turn the color all the way down you have a good greyscale. Camera angles shifting like a damn toddler had the camera.
And geometry ? Either it is letterboxed, cropped on the sides or overscanning because they haven't gotten their aspect ration shit together.
How the shoot these new movies and shows annoys me. Color effects, the blacks are green or whatever. And I know it is them because if you turn the color all the way down you have a good greyscale. Camera angles shifting like a damn toddler had the camera.
And geometry ? Either it is letterboxed, cropped on the sides or overscanning because they haven't gotten their aspect ration shit together.
thekma...@gmail.com
Oct 24, 2015, 2:40:31 PM10/24/15
to
Actually jurb, the default TV settings are like
having the bass & treble jacked fully clockwise,
or the graphic equalizers set like smileys -
middle sliders down, and sliders toward the ends
higher and higher.
As far as aspect ratio is concerned, 16:9 or
"screen fit" will accommodate most viewing
scenarios. I'm really annoyed by those who
insist on stretching 4:3(old fashioned TV)
pictures to fit their wide-screen HD theater,
so J.J. from "Good Times" looks wider than
superintendent Bookman. LOL!
thekma...@gmail.com
Oct 25, 2015, 5:37:34 PM10/25/15
to
For those that don't think calibration - or at least
proper adjustment of the basic six controls - is
important:
http://www.avdomotics.com/listmanager/images/CalibratedVersusUncalibrated.jpg
proper adjustment of the basic six controls - is
important:
http://www.avdomotics.com/listmanager/images/CalibratedVersusUncalibrated.jpg
thekma...@gmail.com
Oct 25, 2015, 5:40:14 PM10/25/15
to
Cydrome Leader
Oct 26, 2015, 12:39:08 PM10/26/15
to
others where color temp matters.
thekma...@gmail.com
Oct 26, 2015, 3:04:28 PM10/26/15
to
Cyndrome Leader wrote:
"yes, and there are different types of phosphor. Some look better than
others where color temp matters. "
And there are adjustments available
"yes, and there are different types of phosphor. Some look better than
others where color temp matters. "
on most panels to being all of those
into grayscale spec.
Cydrome Leader
Oct 26, 2015, 6:05:40 PM10/26/15
to
I've seen color corrected LED backlights on high end computer displays. I
use a 4k Eizo that has this feature, it's not tunable but the color temp
has a few settings and only the highest one is harsh blue, as it should
be (and also not used as it looks bad, like televisions at the store).
thekma...@gmail.com
Oct 26, 2015, 7:14:52 PM10/26/15
to
On Monday, October 26, 2015 at 6:05:40 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote:
com wrote:
> > Cyndrome Leader wrote:
> > "yes, and there are different types of phosphor. Some look better than
> > others where color temp matters. "
> >
> > And there are adjustments available
> > on most panels to being all of those
> > into grayscale spec.
>
> Adjustable backlight color temp on cheapo televisions?
Not the backlight - the overall picture.
com wrote:
> > Cyndrome Leader wrote:
> > "yes, and there are different types of phosphor. Some look better than
> > others where color temp matters. "
> >
> > And there are adjustments available
> > on most panels to being all of those
> > into grayscale spec.
>
> Adjustable backlight color temp on cheapo televisions?
>
> I've seen color corrected LED backlights on high end computer displays. I
> use a 4k Eizo that has this feature, it's not tunable but the color temp
> has a few settings and only the highest one is harsh blue, as it should
> be (and also not used as it looks bad, like televisions at the store).
Are you serious?
Cydrome Leader
Oct 27, 2015, 11:53:05 AM10/27/15
to
thekma...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, October 26, 2015 at 6:05:40 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote:
> com wrote:
>> > Cyndrome Leader wrote:
>> > "yes, and there are different types of phosphor. Some look better than
>> > others where color temp matters. "
>> >
>> > And there are adjustments available
>> > on most panels to being all of those
>> > into grayscale spec.
>>
>> Adjustable backlight color temp on cheapo televisions?
>
> Not the backlight - the overall picture.
exactly. If you try to compensate for a horrible backlight you're going to
> On Monday, October 26, 2015 at 6:05:40 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote:
> com wrote:
>> > Cyndrome Leader wrote:
>> > "yes, and there are different types of phosphor. Some look better than
>> > others where color temp matters. "
>> >
>> > And there are adjustments available
>> > on most panels to being all of those
>> > into grayscale spec.
>>
>> Adjustable backlight color temp on cheapo televisions?
>
> Not the backlight - the overall picture.
lose the full gamut the display should have been able to show.
>> I've seen color corrected LED backlights on high end computer displays. I
>> use a 4k Eizo that has this feature, it's not tunable but the color temp
>> has a few settings and only the highest one is harsh blue, as it should
>> be (and also not used as it looks bad, like televisions at the store).
>
> "harsh blue, as it should be" ???
>
> Are you serious?
far exceeded by cheap displays.
thekma...@gmail.com
Oct 27, 2015, 12:43:51 PM10/27/15
to
"exactly. If you try to compensate for a horrible backlight you're going to
lose the full gamut the display should have been able to show. "
And this is where colorimeter-based calibration comes
lose the full gamut the display should have been able to show. "
in. By adjusting the bias/gain, and the RGBs, you can
compensate for any backlight flaws and maintain
correct color gamut.
"Serious. 10k color temp looks bad on a good monitor, and that temp is even
far exceeded by cheap displays. "
above, would you still keep the OOB settings
on a consumer display, or would you at least
attempt to get the basic settings closer to
standardized positions?
Tim R
Oct 28, 2015, 10:00:09 AM10/28/15
to
On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 6:58:18 AM UTC-4, thekma...@gmail.com wrote:
> Folks I have come to the conclusion that
> the majority of people don't even know these
> new-fangled panels HAVE settings or a menu
> under which settings can be found. I'm dead
> serious. And they live with their TVs looking
> like cartoons not knowing that they are getting
> only 5% of out of their investment's potential.
>
We bought our first flat screen this year when a CRT finally died. (still have 3 more in the garage, can't get rid of them)
> Folks I have come to the conclusion that
> the majority of people don't even know these
> new-fangled panels HAVE settings or a menu
> under which settings can be found. I'm dead
> serious. And they live with their TVs looking
> like cartoons not knowing that they are getting
> only 5% of out of their investment's potential.
>
I did not know there were settings until I read this thread.
I do recall the colors didn't look quite right at first, but ....sigh......we got used to them.
So you're making a good case for some adjustments. Is this stuff in the owner's manual?
pf...@aol.com
Oct 28, 2015, 1:26:38 PM10/28/15
to
On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 12:54:22 PM UTC-4, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
> Somewhat like the people who leave their stereo at flat response. the bass and treble controls are there to be used. Every recording is not perfect and every speaker is not perfect, especially in a real room.
Well - this is a horse of an entirely different color.
First, a confession: Due to this being one of the facets of my hobby, I have no less than seven (7) functioning, dedicated audio systems in play. Four are in my "radio room" one in the living room, and the most serious one in the library. The seventh is at our summer house, and is primarily a weekend warrior. Speakers range from AR3a to Magnepan MG-IIIa, and include both Revox and AR sub-sat systems as well as vintage AR M5s. So, the vice has been well-established. The house is a center-hall colonial with 10' ceilings, plaster walls, hardwood floors and lots of wood trim. Room sizes vary from 17' x 24' x 10' (library) to 12' x 15' x 9' (radio room).
a) I have found that with some care and a very understanding wife, speakers may be placed in about any room without needing equalization.
b) Getting a good soundstage - which is emphatically NOT a single point - is a little more difficult, but not impossible - and why I favor placing speakers on the long wall of a room, not the short wall.
c) There are times when I will use the bass/treble/midrange controls on my pre-amps - but that will be specific to a recording, not a general setting. I do also own an equalizer - but in the last 10 years, it has seen use only to the extent that I make sure it is working properly. And I also own a Citation 17 with equalization built-in, nice but not much used.
d) I find that adequate power such that one may achieve substantial volume without the threat of clipping is far more useful to good sound than any sort of 'shaping' applied to the signal. I have a (very) few recordings with a peak-to-average of very nearly 30dB, such that 'enough power' is not an idle expectation.
Things that are 'there to be used' are often not of much use if any thought is applied.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/46/156980933_1ea5a376db.jpg
jurb...@gmail.com
Oct 29, 2015, 12:39:38 AM10/29/15
to
>"And this is where colorimeter-based calibration comes
>in. By adjusting the bias/gain, and the RGBs, you can
>compensate for any backlight flaws and maintain
>correct color gamut. "
No. here is a reason there were no LED LCD TVs in the past. They could not get the color right because the wavelengths they needed were simply not there. So they built those HV supplies and used those CCFLs with their own special phosphor. Well it isn't all that special.
>in. By adjusting the bias/gain, and the RGBs, you can
>compensate for any backlight flaws and maintain
>correct color gamut. "
The LCD panel has to separate the colors, and there are only so many efficient ways of doing that. You have to have the colors it needs. The spectral output has to be right and matched to not only the panel, but the circuitry. The days of the 90 degree color demodulation angle being the last word are over. Red is not really red, green is not really green and blue is not really blue. At least as defined by the old standard. They can do whatever they want now, and DLPs took to using seven colors. Like having a seven gun CRT. Try just demodulating I and Q now. (the original red and blue signals, kinda)
One thing though, if you DO deem it that important, what is your reference ? A piece of paper ? Lit by what ? The way I see it you would need a lightbox such as used for color camera calibration. If you do not have that, how do you know what is white ?
jurb...@gmail.com
Oct 29, 2015, 1:06:19 AM10/29/15
to
>"Well - this is a horse of an entirely different color. "
You an AKer ?
Anyway, in response, speakers run 5, 6, 7 dB off, microphones about the same. Amps, tuners, whatever, consider them good within 3 dB. And people are afraid to use tone controls ? Where is that in the Bible ? Where is that in the Constitution ?
What's more, when turned all the way up that bass control is doing what it is supposed to do. Or all the way down. It was endowed by its creator with that ability. It is your free will to use it or abuse it. Like a gun, well at least as far as some woofers are concerned but they are just paranoid...
Bose had no shame in using a permanent EQ. Neither did I. Years ago I had speakers used to have a small woofer and like an 8 or 10 inch passive radiator which I replaced with a four ohm woofer.
It was not good, but using the full range off a Soundcraftsmen ten band EQ I got them to sound good. And when I played a few other things on them I started liking them better and better. Damn that bass was smooth.
The settings were 31 Hz at +max, 62 at 0, 125 Hz at -max (min) and the rest gradually up to the center from there to about the sixth band. It sounded fantastic, but was inefficient as hell. First of all it was 2.3 ohms, poison to at least half of the amps known in existence, or not actually...
The lights dimmed when I cranked these babies up. Eventually they became the rear channels in my quad system. Fed them with a supposedly low power Sansui 771. I scoped it once and don;t remember the reading but it was well over a hundred a channel into that 2.3 ohms. The front was the Marantz 4270 running into speakers I put together. A 12 inch three way system, decent dome tweeters, noting fancy ad did not sound perfect, but I had an EQ for them as well. Separate EQs for front and back. Yup.
Once set, I believe the sound was damn hard to beat. Nobody did back then, at least in the current crowd. And I had it with the Advent five foot silver screen job with the mirror out front, AND MINE WAS CALIBRATED. Someone has just changed all three CRTs but it had another problem nobody could fix. Nobody else that is.
You look at these things and the picture is trapezoidal, the convergence is shit, you can't read the letters sometimes because it is so bad. Not mine. Mine was perfect. Convergence within a raster line width everywhere on the screen. I figured out a little design defect that was keeping the others from having that. It was radiation from one wire to another, polluting one of the waveforms going to the convergence waveform board. It caused an error at the right side and most people just made it overscan, not me. On a five foot diagonal screen my overscan was less than an inch on each side. Now remember how long ago this was. Your TV picture got smaller when your fridge started not long before that.
I wouldn't mind having one of those old sets now. Not that I have anywhere to put it, but if I did...
thekma...@gmail.com
Oct 29, 2015, 5:58:12 AM10/29/15
to
jurb...@gmail.com wrote: "One thing though, if you DO deem it that important, what is your reference ? A piece of paper ? Lit by what ? The way I see it you would need a lightbox such as used for color camera calibration. If you do not have that, how do you know what is white ? "
This will be my last reply to you, since
it seems your mind is clearly closed to
TV calibration:
My ref. source is one of several good
test pattern DVDs out there: HD Digital
Video Essentials on Blu-Ray, Spears &
Munsil, etc. There are also pattern
generators out there, from Quantum
and Spectra Cal. You put up the patterns,
stick a sensor on your screen, and adjust
what the laptop software tells you to.
And now you are on your own. I'm going
to respond to someone who at least
seems curious about this subject.
This will be my last reply to you, since
it seems your mind is clearly closed to
TV calibration:
My ref. source is one of several good
test pattern DVDs out there: HD Digital
Video Essentials on Blu-Ray, Spears &
Munsil, etc. There are also pattern
generators out there, from Quantum
and Spectra Cal. You put up the patterns,
stick a sensor on your screen, and adjust
what the laptop software tells you to.
And now you are on your own. I'm going
to respond to someone who at least
seems curious about this subject.
thekma...@gmail.com
Oct 29, 2015, 6:14:25 AM10/29/15
to
Tim R. wrote: "So you're making a good case for some
The owners manual mainly explains
how to access the settings and (sort
of) what each control does.
I can get you started, but first I need
to know what type of flat panel you
have: LCD/LED(both are backlit) or
Plasma.
For the backlight types, the first
things you want to do is (1) turn
the backlight down from full, to
about halfway, and (2) under
advanced settings, turn off
any "eye candy" - garbage like
digital noise reduction.
Next, get the TV out of "Vivid"
picture mode. All that is designed
to do is shorten the life of your TV
so you can go out and buy a new one
in 3-4 years(!).
Start with those things and tell me
what you see. It will not be as bright
as you were used with those showroom
settings, but it's not supposed to be.
adjustments. Is this stuff in the owner's manual? "
Welcome to the newsgroup! :)
The owners manual mainly explains
how to access the settings and (sort
of) what each control does.
I can get you started, but first I need
to know what type of flat panel you
have: LCD/LED(both are backlit) or
Plasma.
For the backlight types, the first
things you want to do is (1) turn
the backlight down from full, to
about halfway, and (2) under
advanced settings, turn off
any "eye candy" - garbage like
skin tone enhancer, black level
enhancer, edge enhancer, and
digital noise reduction.
Next, get the TV out of "Vivid"
picture mode. All that is designed
to do is shorten the life of your TV
so you can go out and buy a new one
in 3-4 years(!).
Start with those things and tell me
what you see. It will not be as bright
as you were used with those showroom
settings, but it's not supposed to be.
Tim R
Oct 29, 2015, 8:39:01 AM10/29/15
to
On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 6:14:25 AM UTC-4, thekma...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> For the backlight types, the first
> things you want to do is (1) turn
> the backlight down from full, to
> about halfway, and (2) under
> advanced settings, turn off
> any "eye candy" - garbage like
> skin tone enhancer, black level
> enhancer, edge enhancer, and
> digital noise reduction.
>
> Next, get the TV out of "Vivid"
> picture mode. All that is designed
> to do is shorten the life of your TV
> so you can go out and buy a new one
> in 3-4 years(!).
I did that (except I realize I left noise reduction on) and I get a kind of washed out appearance, like water colors instead of oils. I left it that way to see if I'd get used to it. My wife and daughter have not commented - really they watch the majority of TV. But I didn't tell them what I did, I'll wait a day and ask.
>
> For the backlight types, the first
> things you want to do is (1) turn
> the backlight down from full, to
> about halfway, and (2) under
> advanced settings, turn off
> any "eye candy" - garbage like
> skin tone enhancer, black level
> enhancer, edge enhancer, and
> digital noise reduction.
>
> Next, get the TV out of "Vivid"
> picture mode. All that is designed
> to do is shorten the life of your TV
> so you can go out and buy a new one
> in 3-4 years(!).
What made the most difference was removing Vivid.
thekma...@gmail.com
Oct 29, 2015, 8:50:17 AM10/29/15
to
Tim R:
OK. Next I need you to select
picture mode "Standard" or
"Custom". I need to know the
scale and present setting of each
of the following:
Backlight
Contrast
Brightness
Color
Tint/Hue
Sharpness.
I.E. "Contrast: 0..........50.......100, presently 90.
etc.
Before you do that, check color temperature
setting. Move it to Neutral, or Warm1, if available.
OK. Next I need you to select
picture mode "Standard" or
"Custom". I need to know the
scale and present setting of each
of the following:
Backlight
Contrast
Brightness
Color
Tint/Hue
Sharpness.
I.E. "Contrast: 0..........50.......100, presently 90.
etc.
Before you do that, check color temperature
setting. Move it to Neutral, or Warm1, if available.
Tim R
Oct 29, 2015, 9:28:00 PM10/29/15
to
Backlight, about 48%
contrast, about 75%
brightness, 50%
color, 42%
tint 0
sharpness 0
color warm (dunno why two colors)
Noise reduction On
light sensor On
Black Stretch Off
Dynamic contrast Off
thekma...@gmail.com
Oct 29, 2015, 9:44:47 PM10/29/15
to
Tim R wrote: "Backlight, about 48%
noise reduction and the light sensor.
Run up one of the controls all the way to
the right: That will determine your scale.
On my Samsung LED, the scale is 0-100,
with 50 as midpoint. On my "bedroom"
tube Toshiba, scale is 0-64, with 32 as
midpoint.
Anywho, the cause of your "washed out"
image is (1) Being so used to the
exaggerated settings of Vivid or dynamic.
and (2) - nudge that Contrast up a little
higher - 85% or so. I keep mine at
90/100.
How many color temp. options does
your set have - just TWO? Warm and
....? There should be at least three
on any reputable/recognizable brand
name TV.
My backlight(scale 0-20) by the way
is set by me at 7. I had to bump
up brightness to 55 so as to not lose
detail in darker parts of the image, IE:
the texture of a dark suit jacket, etc.
contrast, about 75%
brightness, 50%
color, 42%
tint 0
sharpness 0
color warm (dunno why two colors)
Noise reduction On
light sensor On
Black Stretch Off
Dynamic contrast Off "
Seem reasonable. I'd still turn off
brightness, 50%
color, 42%
tint 0
sharpness 0
color warm (dunno why two colors)
Noise reduction On
light sensor On
Black Stretch Off
Dynamic contrast Off "
noise reduction and the light sensor.
Run up one of the controls all the way to
the right: That will determine your scale.
On my Samsung LED, the scale is 0-100,
with 50 as midpoint. On my "bedroom"
tube Toshiba, scale is 0-64, with 32 as
midpoint.
Anywho, the cause of your "washed out"
image is (1) Being so used to the
exaggerated settings of Vivid or dynamic.
and (2) - nudge that Contrast up a little
higher - 85% or so. I keep mine at
90/100.
How many color temp. options does
your set have - just TWO? Warm and
....? There should be at least three
on any reputable/recognizable brand
name TV.
My backlight(scale 0-20) by the way
is set by me at 7. I had to bump
up brightness to 55 so as to not lose
detail in darker parts of the image, IE:
the texture of a dark suit jacket, etc.
jurb...@gmail.com
Oct 30, 2015, 4:22:59 AM10/30/15
to
>"Anywho, the cause of your "washed out"
>image is (1) Being so used to the
>exaggerated settings of Vivid or dynamic.
>and (2) - nudge that Contrast up a little
>higher - 85% or so. I keep mine at
>90/100. "
And you are probably white clipping.
>image is (1) Being so used to the
>exaggerated settings of Vivid or dynamic.
>and (2) - nudge that Contrast up a little
>higher - 85% or so. I keep mine at
>90/100. "
pf...@aol.com
Oct 30, 2015, 7:07:18 AM10/30/15
to
Please note the interpolations
On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 1:06:19 AM UTC-4, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
> >"Well - this is a horse of an entirely different color. "
>
> You an AKer ?
I am not from Alaska, but I do own several Atwater Kent radios made nearby. Otherwise, I do not get the reference?
> Bose had no shame in using a permanent EQ. Neither did I. Years ago I had speakers used to have a small woofer and like an 8 or 10 inch passive radiator which I replaced with a four ohm woofer.
On Bose - there is a very accurate descriptive phrase: No highs? No lows? Must be Bose. Of all the "popular" and/or mass-market "Name Brand" speakers out there, Bose were and are perhaps the worst of the lot. Their singular virtue was that they sounded just as wretched anywhere in the room due to that equalization. Which Bose managed to turn into a selling point. But, if that is your 'reference' speaker, much of what you have to write is justified, and heroic use of equalization is probably necessary. Generally not so much with decent speakers and sufficient power to drive them.
ASIDE: one day, I will fasten upon a set of Klipschorns - and retest my theories using fixed-location highly efficient speakers. Until then, I am quite happy with what I have, have no fears, constitutional, biblical or otherwise using equalization, bass, midrange or treble controls but just not having much of a need.
> The lights dimmed when I cranked these babies up. Eventually they became the rear channels in my quad system. Fed them with a supposedly low power Sansui 771. I scoped it once and don;t remember the reading but it was well over a hundred a channel into that 2.3 ohms. The front was the Marantz 4270 running into speakers I put together. A 12 inch three way system, decent dome tweeters, noting fancy ad did not sound perfect, but I had an EQ for them as well. Separate EQs for front and back. Yup.
If you *needed* equalization with decent drivers in a homebrew speaker, I suspect that your crossovers may have needed work as well, and you were overcoming their limitations - no shame in that, but it also makes your fascination with equalization more reasonable. And a good thing that using such means did get you where you wanted to be in the end.
>
> Once set, I believe the sound was damn hard to beat. Nobody did back then, at least in the current crowd. And I had it with the Advent five foot silver screen job with the mirror out front, AND MINE WAS CALIBRATED. Someone has just changed all three CRTs but it had another problem nobody could fix. Nobody else that is.
You understand that Henry Kloss began to go deaf with increasing rapidity right around the time he moved away from speakers and audio to TV. His projection TV was a tour-de-force, with its biggest problem after the expense was in keeping it running, much less setting it up in the first place. Like the little girl with the pretty curl. When it was good, it was very, very good. When it was bad, it was just awful.
On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 1:06:19 AM UTC-4, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:
> >"Well - this is a horse of an entirely different color. "
>
> You an AKer ?
>
> Anyway, in response, speakers run 5, 6, 7 dB off, microphones about the same. Amps, tuners, whatever, consider them good within 3 dB. And people are afraid to use tone controls ? Where is that in the Bible ? Where is that in the Constitution ?
Some do, some are better than that. Most of mine are in the "better" category. Most (not all) speakers that are in the better category are also power pigs. All of mine are in that category - which leads to having to have relatively high-wattage amps based on speaker type, expected volume and room size. My least powerful amp is a 12-watt EL84 based homebrew, my most is 225 watt solid-state beast.
> Anyway, in response, speakers run 5, 6, 7 dB off, microphones about the same. Amps, tuners, whatever, consider them good within 3 dB. And people are afraid to use tone controls ? Where is that in the Bible ? Where is that in the Constitution ?
>
> What's more, when turned all the way up that bass control is doing what it is supposed to do. Or all the way down. It was endowed by its creator with that ability. It is your free will to use it or abuse it. Like a gun, well at least as far as some woofers are concerned but they are just paranoid...
>
Have you ever looked at a 'full/min.' curve on a typical amp tone control? One runs out of words past "ugly". Not even the first cousin of the input signal.
> What's more, when turned all the way up that bass control is doing what it is supposed to do. Or all the way down. It was endowed by its creator with that ability. It is your free will to use it or abuse it. Like a gun, well at least as far as some woofers are concerned but they are just paranoid...
>
> Bose had no shame in using a permanent EQ. Neither did I. Years ago I had speakers used to have a small woofer and like an 8 or 10 inch passive radiator which I replaced with a four ohm woofer.
ASIDE: one day, I will fasten upon a set of Klipschorns - and retest my theories using fixed-location highly efficient speakers. Until then, I am quite happy with what I have, have no fears, constitutional, biblical or otherwise using equalization, bass, midrange or treble controls but just not having much of a need.
>
> It was not good, but using the full range off a Soundcraftsmen ten band EQ I got them to sound good. And when I played a few other things on them I started liking them better and better. Damn that bass was smooth.
>
> The settings were 31 Hz at +max, 62 at 0, 125 Hz at -max (min) and the rest gradually up to the center from there to about the sixth band. It sounded fantastic, but was inefficient as hell. First of all it was 2.3 ohms, poison to at least half of the amps known in existence, or not actually...
>
Good sound, especially Bass is a matter of moving air. It takes a certain amount of surface area to move sufficient air to get clean, smooth bass. In my direct experience concentrating mostly on vintage equipment (my most recent amp other than the homebrew is c. 1980) is that every one of them is perfectly happy down to 2 ohms, and my two front-line devices are stable to 1 ohm if short-term, and will shut themselves off if long term. I drive nominal 4-ohm AR3a speakers and nominal 6-ohm Maggies as the two extremes - no worries. The rest of the lot are much more conventional nominal 8-ohm devices.
> It was not good, but using the full range off a Soundcraftsmen ten band EQ I got them to sound good. And when I played a few other things on them I started liking them better and better. Damn that bass was smooth.
>
> The settings were 31 Hz at +max, 62 at 0, 125 Hz at -max (min) and the rest gradually up to the center from there to about the sixth band. It sounded fantastic, but was inefficient as hell. First of all it was 2.3 ohms, poison to at least half of the amps known in existence, or not actually...
>
> The lights dimmed when I cranked these babies up. Eventually they became the rear channels in my quad system. Fed them with a supposedly low power Sansui 771. I scoped it once and don;t remember the reading but it was well over a hundred a channel into that 2.3 ohms. The front was the Marantz 4270 running into speakers I put together. A 12 inch three way system, decent dome tweeters, noting fancy ad did not sound perfect, but I had an EQ for them as well. Separate EQs for front and back. Yup.
>
> Once set, I believe the sound was damn hard to beat. Nobody did back then, at least in the current crowd. And I had it with the Advent five foot silver screen job with the mirror out front, AND MINE WAS CALIBRATED. Someone has just changed all three CRTs but it had another problem nobody could fix. Nobody else that is.
thekma...@gmail.com
Oct 30, 2015, 8:35:27 AM10/30/15
to
jurb...@gmail.com wrote: ">"Anywho, the cause of your "washed out"
-got anything positive to add, jurb?
Chuck
Oct 30, 2015, 9:19:01 AM10/30/15
to
We didn't have a scope at the house and all the parts in the video
circuit checked okay. What we eventually found was that there was a
transistor with over 30v on the collector. It worked perfectly up to
29v, then when this threshold was surpassed, it ceased to amplify.
Hours of pure enertainment.
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
jurb...@gmail.com
Oct 30, 2015, 6:06:41 PM10/30/15
to
>"If you *needed* equalization with decent drivers in a homebrew >speaker, I suspect that your crossovers may have needed work as >well, a..."
It was the fact that the cabinet was way too small. The passive radiator was much bigger than the original woofer. Kind of a slim cabinet also, not much volume. Actually they were a bit smaller than Boston Acousics A-70. Those had a relatively small cabinet, and shallow, which I like. The Bostons also have a dowel in the middle to stiffen the front and rear baffles. They handled the small volume by using a seriously low impedance woofer and a decent 12 dB crossover. I read the DC resistance of a woofer out of an A-150 and it was 3.2 ohms. I realize they are inductive but that is about the lowest I've seen on something supposedly 8 ohms. IRC lower than those famous 8 inch EPIs.
Anyway, by "AKer" I meant a member of Audiokarma. Them people are really into this stuff. Some of these guy have systems up into six figures, but that is really usually more than one system. They are into restoring old Marantzes, Pioneers, etc. and a bunch of high end brands I had never heard of. Separate arms and turntables, homemade solid plinths. Changing like ALL the caps in an amp or speaker crossover. Things like that. And tubes. There is a whole tube section and they are building tube amps. In fact I sold some big irons to a guy in Chicago last year, I'll have to dig up his phone number an find out what he did with them. They were a hundred bucks but worth it as they are Chicago BO-15s which are kinda hard to come by. They are full Williamson with BOTH screen and cathode taps. I have actually come to prefer solid state.
It was the fact that the cabinet was way too small. The passive radiator was much bigger than the original woofer. Kind of a slim cabinet also, not much volume. Actually they were a bit smaller than Boston Acousics A-70. Those had a relatively small cabinet, and shallow, which I like. The Bostons also have a dowel in the middle to stiffen the front and rear baffles. They handled the small volume by using a seriously low impedance woofer and a decent 12 dB crossover. I read the DC resistance of a woofer out of an A-150 and it was 3.2 ohms. I realize they are inductive but that is about the lowest I've seen on something supposedly 8 ohms. IRC lower than those famous 8 inch EPIs.
Anyway, by "AKer" I meant a member of Audiokarma. Them people are really into this stuff. Some of these guy have systems up into six figures, but that is really usually more than one system. They are into restoring old Marantzes, Pioneers, etc. and a bunch of high end brands I had never heard of. Separate arms and turntables, homemade solid plinths. Changing like ALL the caps in an amp or speaker crossover. Things like that. And tubes. There is a whole tube section and they are building tube amps. In fact I sold some big irons to a guy in Chicago last year, I'll have to dig up his phone number an find out what he did with them. They were a hundred bucks but worth it as they are Chicago BO-15s which are kinda hard to come by. They are full Williamson with BOTH screen and cathode taps. I have actually come to prefer solid state.
jurb...@gmail.com
Oct 30, 2015, 9:36:03 PM10/30/15
to
Sometimes you are not aware of it. Without side by side comparisons you'll never know if it is in the source or the set.
I'm curious about that sensor you mentioned, what, it detects the color temperature ? Something like that ?
thekma...@gmail.com
Oct 30, 2015, 10:19:56 PM10/30/15
to
jurb...@gmail.com wrote: "- show quoted text -
don't have my patterns with me.
"I'm curious about that sensor you mentioned, what, it detects the color temperature ? Something like that ? "
No! You're talking out the wrong end again. The
sensor senses ambient room light, and raises or
lowers the backlight to compensate. Has nothing
to do with color temp.
Do you know what white clipping is ? It is like when the display hits its maximum brightness than 100 IRE. Say between 70 and 100 IRE it does not get any brighter. It makes the picture white out on bright scenes.
Sometimes you are not aware of it. Without side by side comparisons you'll never know if it is in the source or the set. "
I usually set it via a scene with sunlit clouds in it if I
Sometimes you are not aware of it. Without side by side comparisons you'll never know if it is in the source or the set. "
don't have my patterns with me.
"I'm curious about that sensor you mentioned, what, it detects the color temperature ? Something like that ? "
sensor senses ambient room light, and raises or
lowers the backlight to compensate. Has nothing
to do with color temp.
jurb...@gmail.com
Oct 31, 2015, 11:34:38 PM10/31/15
to
>"...aises or
>lowers the backlight to compensate. Has nothing
>to do with color temp. "
So you are referencing color temp to nothing ? There has to be something you can see to tell you if there is the proper amount of red, green and blue. How do you do that ?
>to do with color temp. "
stra...@yahoo.com
Nov 1, 2015, 3:20:12 AM11/1/15
to
G²
thekma...@gmail.com
Nov 1, 2015, 5:46:55 AM11/1/15
to
jurb...@gmail.com
Nov 1, 2015, 11:20:16 AM11/1/15
to
thekma...@gmail.com
Nov 3, 2015, 6:42:10 AM11/3/15
to
Hey Tim R, haven't heard from
you in a while.
you in a while.
Tim R
Nov 3, 2015, 8:11:13 AM11/3/15
to
On Tuesday, November 3, 2015 at 6:42:10 AM UTC-5, thekma...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hey Tim R, haven't heard from
> you in a while.
I did what you all said, the family isn't complaining. I haven't made up my mind if I like it or not, but I don't watch much TV, it's mostly for the wife and daughter.
> Hey Tim R, haven't heard from
> you in a while.
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