Welder Power

[OldGuy]

Welder is rated 240VAC 60Hz 20A single phase.

How to connect to house 220VAC 60Hz that is two phase 120VAC?
House is 20A.
220VAC coming from unused dryer connector.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---

[Jon Elson]

Connect the welder to the two "hot" wires and safety ground. It is 220 (or
more likely 240-250 V) between the two hot wires of the dryer outlet.

Jon

[Tim Wescott]

On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 11:41:47 -0800, OldGuy wrote:

> Welder is rated 240VAC 60Hz 20A single phase.
>
> How to connect to house 220VAC 60Hz that is two phase 120VAC?
> House is 20A.
> 220VAC coming from unused dryer connector.

It's not really two "phase" -- it'll be the typical North American two
legs and ground system, where each leg is 120V off of ground, and the two
legs (both of which go to the dryer outlet) are 240V from each other.

You say "house is 20A" -- do you mean there's at least a 20A circuit to
the dryer? If so -- plug it in and have fun.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

[Ralph Mowery]

"OldGuy" <nos...@spamnot.com> wrote in message
news:n35304$2cfa$1...@adenine.netfront.net...

> Welder is rated 240VAC 60Hz 20A single phase.
>
> How to connect to house 220VAC 60Hz that is two phase 120VAC?
> House is 20A.
> 220VAC coming from unused dryer connector.
>

I hope that damn 2 phase 220 house wire does not start up again. There is a
true 2 phase and then then there is the split phase 240 that is common in
most of the houses in the US that some try to claim is 2 phase.

If the power is comming from a standard 240 volt dryer connector, there will
be 3 wires. Two of them are hot and the third is a combination of neutral
and ground.

If the welder has only 2 wires and a ground, then hook up the two hot wires
of the welder to the two hot wires at the outlet. Then connect the
ground/chasses of the welder to the ground/neutral wire of the outlet.

[pf...@aol.com]

On Wednesday, November 25, 2015 at 3:12:24 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:

> I hope that damn 2 phase 220 house wire does not start up again. There is a
> true 2 phase and then then there is the split phase 240 that is common in
> most of the houses in the US that some try to claim is 2 phase.

OK - I live near Philadelphia - which, together with Baltimore, MD shares one of the last areas in the US where one may still get actual 2-phase power. 2-phase, 4-wire power was developed primarily for heavy motor use in that era when the battle of AC vs. DC was not yet settled and 3-phase power was barely a gleam in Tesla's Eye. (SIDE NOTE: The last DC building in NYC fed from the Pearl Street Station (for ~125 years) went down in 2007.) For whatever reason, both Philadelphia and Baltimore accumulated an inventory of heavy freight elevators that use 2-phase motors to this day, such that the local utilities continue to supply the power to a very few customers in specific locations within each city. I had the privilege of working on several such elevators and heavy water pumps in my youth while working my way through school as an electrician.

NOTE ALSO: some few households at the time also got 2-phase. And both PA and Reading railroad workers living along the rights-of-way got 25-Hz current - used for railroad traction motors, also to this day.

Standard household power in the US is 1/3 of a Delta-connected 3-phase system, being hot-to-Hot at a nominal 240V and hot-to ground at 120V. Single-phase as only 1/3 of the total capacity is realized. All this is done in the single-phase transformer at the sub-station, not the distribution transformer at the pole (vault) in the neighborhood.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Tom Miller]

"OldGuy" <nos...@spamnot.com> wrote in message
news:n35304$2cfa$1...@adenine.netfront.net...

Your house dryer connection is still single phase but has a neutral if it
has four terminals. It will have a L1, a L2, a Neutral, and a Ground
terminal. You will want to connect the welder to the L1 and L2 terminals
(240 volts) and the Ground. Three wires total. Dryers usually use a 30 amp
connector so you will want to find the correct connector and use 30 amp
wiring into the welder. Some older dryer connections were just three wire
and used the ground as the center tap (for the 120 volt parts of the dryer).

That is the best I can tell you without seeing everything.

[Ralph Mowery]

<pf...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:c88c56ad-89a5-47b0...@googlegroups.com...

I know that in some parts of the country you may run into many different
kinds of power in the houses, just not too common.

Only reason I mentioned the 2 phase stuff was because of the origional
question. I doubt that a house hold dryer would be 2 phase, but who knows ?

I bet it would be difficult for the average home owner to have a house wired
with anything but the standard 120/240 system of most of the country and get
anything to work.

Living in the south I doubt much if any of that 'odd ball' power was used.
About the only "odd" voltage I see is some 208 volts phase to phase with 120
to the neutral instead of the 240 p to p.

[Bill Martin]

Might want to take a look at the wires going to that dryer
connection...there was a period some years ago when Aluminum wire was in
vogue for such things as dryers and kitchen stoves. 1960's time frame if
I recall right.
That's not really a good thing for a welder...and lots of other loads.

[bud--]

On 11/25/2015 2:48 PM, pf...@aol.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 25, 2015 at 3:12:24 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
>
>> I hope that damn 2 phase 220 house wire does not start up again. There is a
>> true 2 phase and then then there is the split phase 240 that is common in
>> most of the houses in the US that some try to claim is 2 phase.
>
> OK - I live near Philadelphia - which, together with Baltimore, MD shares one of the
> last areas in the US where one may still get actual 2-phase power. 2-phase, 4-wire
> power was developed primarily for heavy motor use in that era when the battle of AC
> vs. DC was not yet settled and 3-phase power was barely a gleam in Tesla's Eye.

All multiphase came from Tesla. And AC was widely thought to be useless
until Tesla. Tesla had patents for both 2-phase and 3-phase. Tesla
patents also covered essentially all possible AC induction motor designs.

It is common to use 480/277V 3-phase wye as the power distribution in
large buildings. Transformers from 480/277V to 208/120V are located
throughout the building in electrical rooms. Transformers have 3-cores
for the 3 phases. Small transformers may be simpler, with 2 cores
T-connected (Scott). These cores run at true 2-phase. The disadvantage
is the power factor on the cores is screwed up and they have to be derated.

> (SIDE NOTE: The last DC building in NYC fed from the Pearl Street Station (for
> ~125 years) went down in 2007.) For whatever reason, both Philadelphia and Baltimore
> accumulated an inventory of heavy freight elevators that use 2-phase motors to this
> day, such that the local utilities continue to supply the power to a very few customers
> in specific locations within each city. I had the privilege of working on several such
> elevators and heavy water pumps in my youth while working my way through school as an
> electrician.
>
> NOTE ALSO: some few households at the time also got 2-phase. And both PA and Reading
> railroad workers living along the rights-of-way got 25-Hz current - used for railroad
> traction motors, also to this day.
>
> Standard household power in the US is 1/3 of a Delta-connected 3-phase system, being
> hot-to-Hot at a nominal 240V and hot-to ground at 120V. Single-phase as only 1/3 of the
> total capacity is realized. All this is done in the single-phase transformer at the
> sub-station, not the distribution transformer at the pole (vault) in the neighborhood.

For the houses in my area (and probably all of Minneapolis), a single
8kv L-N distribution leg is tapped off from the 13.8kv 3-phase wye
distribution. Something like 4 blocks are fed from each tap. A pole
mounted transformer feeds 240/120V to something like a block.

[M Philbrook]

In article <zICdnZ-PgMW5i8vL...@earthlink.com>,
rmower...@earthlink.net says...

>
> "OldGuy" <nos...@spamnot.com> wrote in message
> news:n35304$2cfa$1...@adenine.netfront.net...
> > Welder is rated 240VAC 60Hz 20A single phase.
> >
> > How to connect to house 220VAC 60Hz that is two phase 120VAC?
> > House is 20A.
> > 220VAC coming from unused dryer connector.
> >
> I hope that damn 2 phase 220 house wire does not start up again. There is a
> true 2 phase and then then there is the split phase 240 that is common in
> most of the houses in the US that some try to claim is 2 phase.

Show me the phase difference between your "TRUE" 2 phase and the
"FALSE" 2 phase that you seem to know so much about.

I really want to know because I would like to see if you really
understand what the term "PHASE" actually means?

Have a bad day..

Jamie

[Jon Elson]

M Philbrook wrote:

>
> Show me the phase difference between your "TRUE" 2 phase and the
> "FALSE" 2 phase that you seem to know so much about.
>
> I really want to know because I would like to see if you really
> understand what the term "PHASE" actually means?

There REALLY WERE, honestly, 2-phase systems in use quite some time ago.
They had a 90 degree phase angle between the two phases. They could be
delivered in a 3-wire system, looked just like split-phase 120/240, but were
apparently commonly set up with 4 wires. The motors were wired with 2
windings in quadrature, and would start without any starting devices
(switches, capacitors, etc.) just like a 3-phase motor. It was quickly
figured out that 3-phase was slightly better (less torque ripple, for
instance) and the 3-phase system took over.

Google "2 phase utility power" and they have an article on it.

Of course, standard residential power in the US is NOT 2-phase, but single-
phase.

Jon

[Ralph Mowery]

"M Philbrook" <jamie_...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.30c282549...@news.eternal-september.org...

>> I hope that damn 2 phase 220 house wire does not start up again. There
>> is a
>> true 2 phase and then then there is the split phase 240 that is common in
>> most of the houses in the US that some try to claim is 2 phase.
>
> Show me the phase difference between your "TRUE" 2 phase and the
> "FALSE" 2 phase that you seem to know so much about.
>
> I really want to know because I would like to see if you really
> understand what the term "PHASE" actually means?
>

I don't intend to get suckered into a long thread about the difference. All
I am going to say is that by definition the 2 phase power is seperated by 90
deg instead of the 180 deg that the more common split phase is as some try
to make it .

An easy way to tell is to hook a simple 2 wire iduction motor across the
lines. If it starts, it is 2 phase, if not single phase. The single phase
motor needs some means of starting such as a capacitor start circuit. That
was one of the reasons 2 phase power was used.

[Ralph Mowery]

"Ralph Mowery" <rmower...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:RfednfFowc14IMXL...@earthlink.com...

>
>>
> An easy way to tell is to hook a simple 2 wire iduction motor across the
> lines. If it starts, it is 2 phase, if not single phase. The single
> phase motor needs some means of starting such as a capacitor start
> circuit. That was one of the reasons 2 phase power was used.
>
>

I ment to say 3 wires , not 2.

[M Philbrook]

In article <RfednfFowc14IMXL...@earthlink.com>,
rmower...@earthlink.net says...

I thought so.

Jamie

[DJ Delorie]

M Philbrook <jamie_...@charter.net> writes:
> Show me the phase difference between your "TRUE" 2 phase and the
> "FALSE" 2 phase that you seem to know so much about.

Ah, this old argument... I put some graphs at [1] that show the
differences using non-sine waveforms.

Stepper motors use 2 phase power. The zero crossings occur at different
points in time to give the motor a "rotating" power profile.

Houses use single phase power with a central tap. It's no different
than having a power transformer for your project that provided 5, 15,
and 24 VAC via different taps. A house transformer provides 120 and 240
VAC via taps. We typically tie the central 120vac tap to neutral,
providing -120 and +120 taps instead. This is no different than tying
your project's 5v tap to "ground", providing -5, +10, and +19 vac taps.

One way to "prove" the difference: look for upstream noise on the power
line. With two phase power, the other power line should have the same
noise 90 degrees later (or not at all). In single phase power, the
other power line has the same noise but negated.

I.e. houses have two 120VAC taps which differ in magnitude (or polarity,
+120 vs -120), not phase. Like batteries, you can use one tap for 120v
or use both in series to get 240v.

Another way is to look at my driveway, which only has one power line
coming from the road (plus a ground) (I have my own transformer). If I
had two phase power, I'd need at least two (originally 2 phase used
four, which is why three phase won out - fewer wires) power lines.

[1] http://www.delorie.com/electronics/split-phase-vs-two-phase.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-phase_electric_power
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-phase_electric_power
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-phase_electric_power

[Cydrome Leader]

208 phase to phase means you're looking at two legs of three phase power,
and not split phase 120-120 like in a typical home.