OT: Lithium Cells Exploding
Michael Kennedy
luggage on airplanes in the US.
Personally I have tortured those lithium button cells and have never had
them do anything really dangerous other than spew some nasty stuff out.
I would understand if this referred to litium-ion cells.. Does anyone have
any bad expirence with standard lithium coin cells catching fire? Since
this seems to be what they are concerned with.[
-
Mike
Jeff Liebermann
Are you sure?
<http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/lithiummangdioxide-coin_psds.pdf>
"Energizer lithium coin batteries are exempt from the
classification as dangerous goods as they meet the requirements
of the special provisions listed below. (Essentially, they are
properly packaged and labeled, contain less than 1 gram of
lithium and pass the tests defined in UN model regulation
section 38.3)."
However, these comments may have gotting their attention:
"Handling: Accidental short circuit for a few seconds will not
seriously affect the battery. Prolonged short circuit will
cause the battery to lose energy, generate significant heat
and can cause the safety release vent to open. Sources of
short circuits include jumbled batteries in bulk containers,
metal jewelry, metal covered tables or metal belts used for
assembly of batteries into devices. Damaging a lithium battery
may result in an internal short circuit."
"The contents of an open battery, including a vented battery,
when exposed to water, may result in a fire and/or explosion.
Crushed or damaged batteries may result in a fire."
I had a 2032 coin cell get shorted by my car keys while in my pocket.
No explosion or fire, but it sure burned my leg.
Not exactly a coin battery, but interesting:
Primary Lithium battery explodes!
<http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?121303-Primary-Lithium-battery-explodes!>
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
N_Cook
news:ZOCdncHYbe3p4mHR...@giganews.com...
Have they also banned flying on planes using Rolls Royce Trent engines which
are proven to catch fire and explode in flight.
Geoffrey S. Mendelson
> I recently found out that Lithium cells are no longer allowed in checked
> luggage on airplanes in the US.
>
> Personally I have tortured those lithium button cells and have never had
> them do anything really dangerous other than spew some nasty stuff out.
There was an Austrian Airlines jet brought down because a shipment of
watches had a large number of the lithium cells in them leak in the
unpressurized cargo hold and catch fire.
The "nasty stuff" is extremely flamable in large quantities.
Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to misquote it.
Brenda Ann
"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote in message
news:slrnifplu...@cable.mendelson.com...
Michael Kennedy wrote:
> I recently found out that Lithium cells are no longer allowed in checked
> luggage on airplanes in the US.
>
> Personally I have tortured those lithium button cells and have never had
> them do anything really dangerous other than spew some nasty stuff out.
There was an Austrian Airlines jet brought down because a shipment of
watches had a large number of the lithium cells in them leak in the
unpressurized cargo hold and catch fire.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How long before they quit letting us take any electronics at all on a plane?
Jim Yanik
news:l22pf69g6sgk8thhk...@4ax.com:
is the flight prohibition against lithium CELLS or battery PACKS?
like the laptop PC battery packs that have had fire problems,and would have
exposed contacts that could be shorted by other items in the baggage.
Or spare cellphone battery packs,out of their OEM packaging.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
Gerard Bok
wrote:
>Michael Kennedy <mike@com> wrote in message
>news:ZOCdncHYbe3p4mHR...@giganews.com...
>> I recently found out that Lithium cells are no longer allowed in checked
>> luggage on airplanes in the US.
>>
>> Personally I have tortured those lithium button cells and have never had
>> them do anything really dangerous other than spew some nasty stuff out.
>>
>> I would understand if this referred to litium-ion cells.. Does anyone have
>> any bad expirence with standard lithium coin cells catching fire? Since
>> this seems to be what they are concerned with.[
>Have they also banned flying on planes using Rolls Royce Trent engines which
>are proven to catch fire and explode in flight.
That's why they are only used on the outside of an airplane :-)
--
Kind regards,
Gerard Bok
Spamm Trappe
>
> How long before they quit letting us take any electronics at all on a
> plane?
They won't be happy until we're required to show up naked with no
luggage.
Wolfgang Allinger
On 06 Dec 10 at group /sci/electronics/repair in article
<g...@mendelson.com> (Geoffrey S. Mendelson) wrote:
>Michael Kennedy wrote:
>> I recently found out that Lithium cells are no longer allowed in
>> checked luggage on airplanes in the US.
>>
>> Personally I have tortured those lithium button cells and have never
>> had them do anything really dangerous other than spew some nasty
>> stuff out.
>There was an Austrian Airlines jet brought down because a shipment of
>watches had a large number of the lithium cells in them leak in the
>unpressurized cargo hold and catch fire.
There are no unpressured cargo holds in civil passenger or cargo planes
since 60 or more years! They are even heated. The pressure is about
2000m MSL (or 2400m? I forgot)
>The "nasty stuff" is extremely flamable in large quantities.
Yes, especially in non existing worlds and movies :)
Saludos Wolfgang
--
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Bob Villa
wrote:
A cavity probe would still be necessary...sorry!
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>is the flight prohibition against lithium CELLS or battery PACKS?
>like the laptop PC battery packs that have had fire problems,and would have
>exposed contacts that could be shorted by other items in the baggage.
>Or spare cellphone battery packs,out of their OEM packaging.
Duh... I should have looked for that first. The regs have been in
place since Jan 1, 2008.
<http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html>
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 07:17:34 -0600, Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov>
>wrote:
>
>>is the flight prohibition against lithium CELLS or battery PACKS?
>>like the laptop PC battery packs that have had fire problems,and would have
>>exposed contacts that could be shorted by other items in the baggage.
>>Or spare cellphone battery packs,out of their OEM packaging.
>
>Duh... I should have looked for that first. The regs have been in
>place since Jan 1, 2008.
><http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html>
More:
<http://safetravel.dot.gov/quick_chart.html>
Are lithium-ion batteries the next threat to airline safety?
<http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/travel/2010-08-16-airlinebatteries16_CV_N.htm>
FAA data show that from March 20, 1991, through Aug. 3, 2010,
batteries and battery-powered devices were involved in 113
incidents with "smoke, fire, extreme heat or explosion" on
passenger and cargo planes. The data are for lithium and
non-lithium batteries and are not a complete list of such
incidents, the agency says.
I think this is what inspired the TSO to step up enforcement:
<http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101026/ap_on_bi_ge/us_planes_on_fire>
Michael A. Terrell
"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote:
>
> Michael Kennedy wrote:
> > I recently found out that Lithium cells are no longer allowed in checked
> > luggage on airplanes in the US.
> >
> > Personally I have tortured those lithium button cells and have never had
> > them do anything really dangerous other than spew some nasty stuff out.
>
> There was an Austrian Airlines jet brought down because a shipment of
> watches had a large number of the lithium cells in them leak in the
> unpressurized cargo hold and catch fire.
>
> The "nasty stuff" is extremely flamable in large quantities.
NASA won't allow any litium cells in space. We had to use 'Capstore'
NVRAM in our products for space applications. Since the cost difference
was small, we dropped the battery backed NVRAM from our products.
--
For the last time: I am not a mad scientist, I'm just a very ticked off
scientist!!!
Michael Kennedy
"Jeff Liebermann" <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:gm4qf6dp2n0aprcop...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 08:35:06 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 07:17:34 -0600, Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>is the flight prohibition against lithium CELLS or battery PACKS?
>>>like the laptop PC battery packs that have had fire problems,and would
>>>have
>>>exposed contacts that could be shorted by other items in the baggage.
>>>Or spare cellphone battery packs,out of their OEM packaging.
>>
>>Duh... I should have looked for that first. The regs have been in
>>place since Jan 1, 2008.
>><http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html>
>
> More:
> <http://safetravel.dot.gov/quick_chart.html>
>
> Are lithium-ion batteries the next threat to airline safety?
> <http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/travel/2010-08-16-airlinebatteries16_CV_N.htm>
> FAA data show that from March 20, 1991, through Aug. 3, 2010,
> batteries and battery-powered devices were involved in 113
> incidents with "smoke, fire, extreme heat or explosion" on
> passenger and cargo planes. The data are for lithium and
> non-lithium batteries and are not a complete list of such
> incidents, the agency says.
>
> I think this is what inspired the TSO to step up enforcement:
> <http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101026/ap_on_bi_ge/us_planes_on_fire>
>
>
Well I didn't know the regulations, but I was told by the post office here
in Japan that no lithium battery Coin cell included or lead acid batteries
are allowed in Air Mail.
Go figure they got the translation wrong and of course nobody knows enough
about how things work to even ask the question why they are banning it.
Honestly I can understand Li-ion batteries being banned, but non rechargable
coin cells didnt make any sense to me.
That clears that up I guess.
- Mike
Michael Kennedy
"N_Cook" <div...@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:idi8pg$5j0$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
No they aren't worried about solving any acutal safety problems. They are
just here to inoconvience everyone to the virge of insanity.
Michael Kennedy
"Michael Kennedy" <mi...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:rv2dnT5AiZMot2DR...@giganews.com...
On that note as well.. Did anyone know there is a 1lb / 455gram limit on all
parcels flying airmail to the USA? It isnt being enforced everywhere yet,
but this is what the TSA requested / demanded.
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>On that note as well.. Did anyone know there is a 1lb / 455gram limit on all
>parcels flying airmail to the USA? It isnt being enforced everywhere yet,
>but this is what the TSA requested / demanded.
Lovely. The TSA imposes this limit and Japan retaliates.
<http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20101117a5.html>
Here's the brilliant logic:
Packages containing explosives were found in Britain and
Dubai on two cargo planes from Yemen bound for the U.S.
in late October. The TSA heightened its aviation alert
level since then.
Therefore, anything weighing over 1 lb must be a bomb.
Brenda Ann
"Michael Kennedy" wrote in message
news:HcydnSwdoYmntmDR...@giganews.com...
On that note as well.. Did anyone know there is a 1lb / 455gram limit on all
parcels flying airmail to the USA? It isnt being enforced everywhere yet,
but this is what the TSA requested / demanded.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That would effectively ban all parcels over 1lb to the US, since there is no
longer any international surface mail into or out of the US. Such a rule
will never fly, as it would pretty much curtail any international small
quantity commerce. Would REALLY piss off the troops, too, as it would pretty
much mean they couldn't send anything home other than letters. Would also
severly cripple military contractors, etc.
Brenda Ann
"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
news:q3fqf694eb6h6q0i2...@4ax.com...
Here's the brilliant logic:
Packages containing explosives were found in Britain and
Dubai on two cargo planes from Yemen bound for the U.S.
in late October. The TSA heightened its aviation alert
level since then.
Therefore, anything weighing over 1 lb must be a bomb.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lovely... the grandest of idiocy, just in time for the holiday mailing
season..
Spehro Pefhany
Digikey won't ship an order by air that contains even a single Li
button cell!
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Michael Kennedy
"Brenda Ann" <newsg...@fullspectrumradio.org> wrote in message
news:7I2dnUT-LcyCw2DR...@giganews.com...
Well actually you can still mail packages TO the us by ship mail.. The USPS
stopped outgoing Surface mail, but actually that was on their own decision
in an attempt to save money.
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>Well I didn't know the regulations, but I was told by the post office here
>in Japan that no lithium battery Coin cell included or lead acid batteries
>are allowed in Air Mail.
Specific energy of TNT = 4.18*10^6 Joules/kg
A Li-Ion battery will produce about 300 watt-hrs/kg
300 watt-hrs/kg * 3600 joules/watt-hr
= 1.08*10^6 Joules/kg
A Li-Ion pile, with 1/4th the power of the same weight of TNT, is
rather impressive. I can see why the authorities are concerned.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-ion>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TNT_equivalent>
--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com je...@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS
Nancy Norelli
Me first.
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Cydrome Leader
>
> "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote:
>>
>> Michael Kennedy wrote:
>> > I recently found out that Lithium cells are no longer allowed in checked
>> > luggage on airplanes in the US.
>> >
>> > Personally I have tortured those lithium button cells and have never had
>> > them do anything really dangerous other than spew some nasty stuff out.
>>
>> There was an Austrian Airlines jet brought down because a shipment of
>> watches had a large number of the lithium cells in them leak in the
>> unpressurized cargo hold and catch fire.
>>
>> The "nasty stuff" is extremely flamable in large quantities.
>
>
> NASA won't allow any litium cells in space. We had to use 'Capstore'
> NVRAM in our products for space applications. Since the cost difference
> was small, we dropped the battery backed NVRAM from our products.
since when does nasa care about stuff catching on fire or exploding, or is
there some sort of higher energy battery failure mode they prefer?
William Sommerwerck
>> NVRAM in our products for space applications. Since the cost difference
>> was small, we dropped the battery backed NVRAM from our products.
> since when does nasa care about stuff catching on fire or exploding, or
> is there some sort of higher energy battery failure mode they prefer?
NASA has other considerations. For example, when astronauts used HP
calculators, NASA required that the feet on the bottom be removed, to avoid
possible outgassing from the rubber.
Allodoxaphobia
>
> since when does nasa care about stuff catching on fire or exploding, or
> is there some sort of higher energy battery failure mode they prefer?
Since, I suppose, it costs giga-shekels per deca-stone to throw crap
into orbit, it seems obvious they would not want to imperil the results.
Then there was: http://history.nasa.gov/Apollo204/
Cydrome Leader
because the inside of the shuttle is a high vacuum chamber?
Cydrome Leader
How would engineers and scientists have known that pure oxygen +
flammables could result in a fire?
William Sommerwerck
> pure oxygen + flammables could result in a fire?
They assumed the third side of the fire triangle -- an ignition source --
would never be present.
Cydrome Leader
So electrity wasn't discovered (at least by nasa) until after the 1960s?
Mark IV
Lie.
As an Audiophilic Scientist For MIT, electricity
discovery doesn't work like that and I know
from my work at MIT on the Jupiter speech
synthesis engines.
--
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Ari Silverstein
> On Mon, 13 Dec 2010 18:42:46 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader wrote:
>
>> William Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> How would engineers and scientists have known that
>>>> pure oxygen + flammables could result in a fire?
>>>
>>> They assumed the third side of the fire triangle -- an ignition source --
>>> would never be present.
>>
>> So electrity wasn't discovered (at least by nasa) until after the 1960s?
>
> Lie.
>
> As an Audiophilic Scientist For MIT,
Adn I am Jesus Christ.
Really.
*larf*
> electricity discovery doesn't work like that and I know from my work
> at MIT on the Jupiter speech synthesis engines.
http://www.aviationbanter.com/showthread.php?t=113497&page=3
That should cover that.
--
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http://tr.im/holj
Motto: Live To Spooge It!
William Sommerwerck
>>> pure oxygen + flammables could result in a fire?
>> They assumed the third side of the fire triangle -- an ignition
>> source -- would never be present.
> So electrity wasn't discovered (at least by NASA) until after
> the 1960s?
Electricity, per se, is not an ignition source.
Cydrome Leader
and it takes crazy person to associate electrical equipment with the
possibility of starting a fire?
how long have fuses been around now? over a century? the hazards of
electrical equipment are well known, and no surprise to anybody outside of
the broken and useless world of nasa.
I'd almost feel bad about the loss of jobs as nasa continues to loose
funding, but let's face it, I would not trust anybody from that
organization to even wire up christmas tree lights for me.
William Sommerwerck
>>>>> pure oxygen + flammables could result in a fire?
>>>> They assumed the third side of the fire triangle -- an
>>>> ignition source -- would never be present.
>>> So electrity wasn't discovered (at least by NASA) until
>>> after the 1960s?
>> Electricity, per se, is not an ignition source.
> And it takes crazy person to associate electrical equipment
> with the possibility of starting a fire?
No, it takes a crazy person to assume that the electrical equipment in the
spacecraft would never produce a spark that might start a fire.
Cydrome Leader
so we agree that nasa is retarded, tries really hard to mess things up.
William Sommerwerck
> to mess things up.
No, we don't agree. NASA's fault wasn't that it was trying to mess things
up, but rather that it wasn't trying to anticipate and prevent problems.
"Foresight is 20/20." Almost all disasters, abuses of law, etc, are
predictable.
Cydrome Leader
Clowns that can't anticipate a fire in a pure oxygen environment filled
with electrical equipment should not be designing spacecraft, or anything
at all.