Which 'scope?

[et...@whidbey.com]

I have decided to shop around for a couple new oscilloscopes. Most
likely one new and one used. Even though I like the Tek 465B the thing
is a tank. It is big and heavy and hard to lug around. And the cord
keepers/feet on the back of the unit have started to fall apart. The
plastic has gotten weak and brittle. So the 465B needs to stay on its
roll around stand.
The 'scopes I'm looking for are an analog and a DSO. The analog
mainly for looking at audio signals. Just for hobby work. Just because
I'm curious about the audio stuff. The analog 'scope needs to be
smaller and lighter than the 465B.
The DSO 'scope should probably be new or fairly new. I don't know
how much bandwidth but it would be used for both hobby audio stuff and
for looking at the type of signals found in CNC controls. Right now
the 465B is plenty good enough, way more than good enough, to look at
signals from the CNC machines but it is a big pain to use much of the
time and a light 'scope that I can hang in a CNC control cabinet would
be great.
My budget is about $100 for the analog and $300 for the DSO.
So, any advice? Did I leave out something?
Thanks,
Eric

[peterw...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, February 14, 2019 at 2:33:13 PM UTC-5, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

> My budget is about $100 for the analog and $300 for the DSO.
> So, any advice? Did I leave out something?
> Thanks,

Unless you go small-screen Chinese, you left out at least one 0 in the budget lines. Or get extremely lucky.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Fluke-196C-ScopeMeter-1GS-s-Dual-Input-100MHz-HandHeld-Color-Oscilloscope/143130682552?epid=96937775&hash=item215340e4b8:g:eWEAAOSwt5dcZGoM:rk:7:pf:0

Is one option that will do nicely.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tektronix-MDO4104B-6-1-GHz-4-16-Channel-6GHz-RF-Mixed-Domain-Oscilloscope-CALD/352591154296?epid=1021994560&hash=item5218120c78:g:uDAAAOSwPsRcYLDI:rk:23:pf:0

Overkill, I agree.

More likely:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tektronix-TDS-2012-2-Channel-Digital-Storage-Oscilloscope-100MHz-1GS-s-Color/153378414566?epid=96950736&hash=item23b610dfe6:g:kl0AAOSwYUZcJP89:rk:6:pf:0

Or...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rigol-DS1052E-50MHz-Digital-Oscope-with-2-Channels-USB-Storage-Access-1-GSa-se/303061791574?epid=26027068917&hash=item468fe3f356:g:dD4AAOSwCuBcZPw7:rk:12:pf:0

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Michael Black]

On Thu, 14 Feb 2019, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

> I have decided to shop around for a couple new oscilloscopes. Most
> likely one new and one used. Even though I like the Tek 465B the thing
> is a tank. It is big and heavy and hard to lug around. And the cord
> keepers/feet on the back of the unit have started to fall apart. The
> plastic has gotten weak and brittle. So the 465B needs to stay on its
> roll around stand.

The 465 is a tank?

The 545 is a tank. It was working the last time I used it, but I mostly
gave up on using it because it wasn't convenient, it took up too much
space, and I couldn't move it around because it was heavy and big.

I had the use of a 455 (I think it was) in the seventies, and that thing
was way more portable.

Michael

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 2/14/19 1:57 PM, Michael Black wrote:
> The 465 is a tank?
>
> The 545 is a tank.

The 465 is a reasonably sized scope. Quite good all in all,until the
triggering fails. Good luck finding tunnel diodes these days.

If you think the 545 is a tank, I have a 511A. AC coupled, 10 MHz and
ONE input channel. Of course, the 511 was Tek's first production
model.

--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <36gb6e17j1ks4trm4...@4ax.com>,
et...@whidbey.com says...

> The DSO 'scope should probably be new or fairly new. I don't know
> how much bandwidth but it would be used for both hobby audio stuff and
> for looking at the type of signals found in CNC controls. Right now
> the 465B is plenty good enough, way more than good enough, to look at
> signals from the CNC machines but it is a big pain to use much of the
> time and a light 'scope that I can hang in a CNC control cabinet would
> be great.
> My budget is about $100 for the analog and $300 for the DSO.
> So, any advice? Did I leave out something?
>
>

Look at this Hantek scope. I bought one a couple of years ago. It
should come with the probes.

https://www.circuitspecialists.com/hantek-200mhz-digital-storage-
oscilloscope-dso5202p.html

There are a few other DSO scopes at the same place.

[Dave Platt]

> The 545 is a tank.

A friend of mine has a 535, which will do for a tank. He used it
through his whole career at GE, and then bought it for around $20 via
the company's surplus-equipment auction a few months after he retired.

Still works, still a nice bright trace, and it's still on its original
set of tubes. He loves it.

It suffered the first malfunction in roughly forever, a few weeks ago;
the vertical gain fell off sharply. He didn't even have to move it
off of the stand to fix it - just opened up the side, exercised the
vertical gain pot a few times (it was noisy... apparently some oxide
had built up over the years), recalibrated the gain, and put the side
back on. All fixed.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 14:45:39 -0600, Fox's Mercantile <jda...@att.net>
wrote:

>The 465 is a reasonably sized scope. Quite good all in all,until the
>triggering fails. Good luck finding tunnel diodes these days.

Ahem...
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Tek-Tunnel-Diodes.jpg>
I sold some to someone in sci.electronics.design years ago, so I think
some of those in the picture are now gone.

There's also Sphere, which usually has some in stock:
<https://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/tek-parts/tekparts5.html>



--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[et...@whidbey.com]

Yeah, the first two are just a little above my price range. The last
one though looks promising.
Thanks,
Eric

[et...@whidbey.com]

Now I have two 'scopes to compare. The Hantek is a 200 MHz bandwidth
and the Rigol is only 50MHz. Just how much bandwidth should I be
looking for?
Thanks,
Eric

[gghe...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, February 14, 2019 at 2:33:13 PM UTC-5, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

Hi Eric, this is a bit outside your price range, but I love my keysight infinium 1000
https://www.keysight.com/en/pcx-2759552/infiniivision-1000-x-series-oscilloscopes?&cc=US&lc=eng

It's an awesome 'scope for the money.

George H.

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 2/15/19 2:30 PM, gghe...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi Eric, this is a bit outside your price range, but I love my keysight infinium 1000

Equally a bit of over kill, is My HP Infiniium
<https://www.rescienceinc.com/product-page/hp-infinium-54825a-oscilloscope>

[ehsjr]

The 50 MHz Rigol is fine for most people, most of the
time. It's a good 'scope. I don't have any experience
with the Hantek, so I can't comment on it, but you don't
need 200 MHz for CNC and audio.

The standard answer might be "buy as much bandwidth as
you can afford" or "it depends on what signals you need
to see".

Selecting which 'scope to buy can drive you nuts. I
feel your pain. :-)

Ed

[tabb...@gmail.com]

Both of those are way above audio, which only extends to 20kHz. To get a reasonable picture of a waveform you'd want at least 8 - 10 samples per cycle. A 1MHz scope would be more than enough for audio. You can get a 200kHz pocket scope for under £20 :) It might well suffice for what you're doing.


NT

[tabb...@gmail.com]

I was offered a 1940s Cossor recently for £20-30. 339A I think it was, the world's first modernish scope. But no possibility to calibrate it, they were't accurate enough then to bother making them calibratable. I said no :)

If all you're doing is audio, any halfway sane scope will do that, even that Cossor.


NT

[Phil Allison]

tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

>
>
> Both of those are way above audio, which only extends to 20kHz.

** While the audible range extends to just a little over 20kHz this has NOTHING to do with the frequencies regularly encountered in *audio electronics*.

You are making a common and BIG mistake !!!

A scope suitable for audio electronics needs a BW of at least 10MHz, preferably 50MHz and good waveform resolution - which counts out all the 8 bit "digital" toys being offered today.


.... Phil

[et...@whidbey.com]

I would like the analog scope for audio. I know that it doesn't need
to be anything fancy. Just two channels and a display big enough for
my old eyes to see easily. But the DSO is for the CNC machines. Even
then I know I don't need a 100 MHz 'scope. I think. I have read that
when it comes to digital 'scopes you want something like 5 times the
bandwidth of what you are trying to measure. There are so many options
with the new DSOs that I really don't understand. Which is why I am
asking for advice here. I would ask in basics but more people seem to
read thisw newsgroup. And the DFSO will be used for repairing
electyronics.
Eric

[Phil Allison]

tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

>
>
> I was offered a 1940s Cossor recently for £20-30.
>

** So they were offering to PAY you to take the POS away ?

> If all you're doing is audio, any halfway sane scope will do that,
> even that Cossor.

** Absolute BOLLOCKS.

Audio is ELECTRONICS, not sound.

The range of frequencies found in audio electronics extends to frequencies of many MHz. Domestic AM and FM radio deceivers are considered "audio".

Radio microphones are considered "audio".

Faulty ( or badly designed / built ) audio amplifiers may exhibit oscillation upto 50MHz.

Digital audio seems to know no bounds.



... Phil

[Terry Schwartz]

My .02 cents....You can never have too much bandwidth. Sooner or later you will need more. Recently got a 300 MHz Tek, old CRT digital dog but I love it. So far I haven't needed 300 MHz but I know I will.

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2/15/19 7:32 PM, Terry Schwartz wrote:
> My .02 cents....You can never have too much bandwidth. Sooner or later you will need more. Recently got a 300 MHz Tek, old CRT digital dog but I love it. So far I haven't needed 300 MHz but I know I will.
>

There are a lot of TDS 744As out there for ~$600, which can be converted
to 4-GSa/s, 1-GHz TDS 784As by moving one jumper and desoldering three
0603 caps.

I have a couple, and am very happy with them.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 2/15/19 6:20 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
> You are making a common and BIG mistake !!!
>
> A scope suitable for audio electronics needs a BW of at
> least 10MHz, preferably 50MHz and good waveform resolution

For years, I had been using a Tektronics 422. Reasonable size
and 2 channels.
Most of the work I do is on old AM broadcast tube radios.

I had to occasion to work on a Drake R-4A receiver. It had
some seriously silly problems. While tracking them down, I
realized I had some band width issues with the scope not
giving me accurate results.

Drag the Tektronix 2465 over. Oh my, that's different.
Yeah 200 MHz vs 10 MHz makes a big difference.

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, 16 February 2019 00:28:59 UTC, Phil Allison wrote:

> tabby wrote:

> > I was offered a 1940s Cossor recently for £20-30.

> ** So they were offering to PAY you to take the POS away ?

Vintage scopes have market value for collectors.

> > If all you're doing is audio, any halfway sane scope will do that,
> > even that Cossor.
>
>
> ** Absolute BOLLOCKS.
>
> Audio is ELECTRONICS, not sound.

no kidding

> The range of frequencies found in audio electronics extends to frequencies of many MHz. Domestic AM and FM radio deceivers are considered "audio".
>
> Radio microphones are considered "audio".

I'd call those radio myself

> Faulty ( or badly designed / built ) audio amplifiers may exhibit oscillation upto 50MHz.

which can be found on a low speed scope with a capacitor & diode

> Digital audio seems to know no bounds.

though it doesn't normally tax any sane scope. The 200kHz toy scope it may do, but for some hobbyists it may be good enough. Then there are smpsus.


NT

[Phil Allison]

tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

>
>
> > > I was offered a 1940s Cossor recently for £20-30.
>
> > ** So they were offering to PAY you to take the POS away ?
>
> Vintage scopes have market value for collectors.
>

** Still a POS and you are no collector.

> > > If all you're doing is audio, any halfway sane scope will do that,
> > > even that Cossor.
> >
> >
> > ** Absolute BOLLOCKS.
> >
> > Audio is ELECTRONICS, not sound.
>
> no kidding
>

** Asinine reply, from an utter ass.

> > The range of frequencies found in audio electronics extends to frequencies of many MHz. Domestic AM and FM radio deceivers are considered "audio".
> >
> > Radio microphones are considered "audio".
>
> I'd call those radio myself
>

** Another asinine reply.

Folk who service "audio" are expected to do each of them.

> > Faulty ( or badly designed / built ) audio amplifiers may exhibit oscillation upto 50MHz.
>
> which can be found on a low speed scope with a capacitor & diode

** Completely irrelevant.

> > Digital audio seems to know no bounds.
>
> though it doesn't normally tax any sane scope.

** As if a bullshitting troll like you would know.

NT = nutcase troll.

Fuck off.


.... Phil

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, 16 February 2019 07:05:08 UTC, Phil Allison wrote:

> tabby wrote:

> > > > I was offered a 1940s Cossor recently for £20-30.
> >
> > > ** So they were offering to PAY you to take the POS away ?
> >
> > Vintage scopes have market value for collectors.
> >
>
> ** Still a POS

yep

> and you are no collector.

lol

> > > > If all you're doing is audio, any halfway sane scope will do that,
> > > > even that Cossor.
> > >
> > >
> > > ** Absolute BOLLOCKS.
> > >
> > > Audio is ELECTRONICS, not sound.
> >
> > no kidding
> >
>
> ** Asinine reply, from an utter ass.

yours was indeed

> > > The range of frequencies found in audio electronics extends to frequencies of many MHz. Domestic AM and FM radio deceivers are considered "audio".
> > >
> > > Radio microphones are considered "audio".
> >
> > I'd call those radio myself
> >
>
> ** Another asinine reply.
>
> Folk who service "audio" are expected to do each of them.

but the fact is it is radio

> > > Faulty ( or badly designed / built ) audio amplifiers may exhibit oscillation upto 50MHz.
> >
> > which can be found on a low speed scope with a capacitor & diode
>
>
> ** Completely irrelevant.

heh, hardly

> > > Digital audio seems to know no bounds.
> >
> > though it doesn't normally tax any sane scope.
>
>
> ** As if a bullshitting troll like you would know.

feel free to show us some digital audio that a sane scope can't handle

> NT = nutcase troll.
>
> Fuck off.

PA = personality-problem ass. Grow up. If you have any facts show us.

[Phil Allison]

tabb the fuckwit troll

> >
> > Folk who service "audio" are expected to do each of them.
>
> but the fact is it is radio

** Irrelevant to the need.

> >
> > ** Completely irrelevant.
>
> heh, hardly
>

>

** Even more childish and asinine.

You really are a prize fuckwit.

> >
> > ** As if a bullshitting troll like you would know.
>
> feel free to show us some digital audio that a sane scope can't handle
>

** Feel free to go fuck yourself.


NT = Nutcase TROLL and vile, autistic pig.

FOAD.





.... Phil

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Monday, 18 February 2019 20:30:46 UTC, Phil Allison wrote:
> tabbypurr

> > > Folk who service "audio" are expected to do each of them.
> >
> > but the fact is it is radio
>
>
> ** Irrelevant to the need.

"mainly for looking at audio signals. Just for hobby work. Just because
I'm curious about the audio stuff. "

Servicing radios was something you came up with.

> > > ** Completely irrelevant.
> >
> > heh, hardly
> >
>
> >
> ** Even more childish and asinine.
>
> You really are a prize fuckwit.

you snipped the relevant stuff, which was the ability to spot oscillation

> > > ** As if a bullshitting troll like you would know.
> >
> > feel free to show us some digital audio that a sane scope can't handle
> >
>
> ** Feel free to go fuck yourself.

you don't have any. A sane scope can do digital audio.

> NT = Nutcase TROLL and vile, autistic pig.

there you get confused again.

> FOAD.

What a nice constructive man.


NT

[Phil Allison]

Some vile, trolling FUCKWIT calling itself:

tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

>
>
> >
> > Folk who service "audio" are expected to do each of them.
>
> but the fact is it is radio



** Irrelevant to the need.




> >

> > ** Completely irrelevant.
>
> heh, hardly
>

>

** Even more childish and asinine.

You really are a prize fuckwit.



>
> >

> > ** As if a bullshitting troll like you would know.
>
> feel free to show us some digital audio that a sane scope can't handle
>


** Feel free to go fuck yourself.

NT = Nutcase TROLL and vile, autistic pig.

FOAD.

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, 19 February 2019 09:31:27 UTC, Phil Allison wrote:

> tabbypurr wrote:

> > > Folk who service "audio" are expected to do each of them.
> >
> > but the fact is it is radio
>
> ** Irrelevant to the need.

> > > ** Completely irrelevant.
> >
> > heh, hardly


> ** Even more childish and asinine.
>
> You really are a prize fuckwit.


> > > ** As if a bullshitting troll like you would know.
> >
> > feel free to show us some digital audio that a sane scope can't handle
> >
>
>
> ** Feel free to go fuck yourself.
>
>
> NT = Nutcase TROLL and vile, autistic pig.
>
> FOAD.

I'm not sure what repeating your already debunked points is going to establish, other than that you have no rational argument.

Why don't we skip the childishness and maybe agree on the very basic and frankly obvious points behind this argument:

1. Any sane scope can handle audio frequencies & class D amps. More bandwidth is needed for fm radio receivers. 'Sane' does not include soundcard scopes.

2. Scopes can detect signals & oscillation well above their bandwidth by using a diode as an envelope detector.

There we go, some simple facts we can probably agree on. The rest is time wasted.


NT

[Phil Allison]

Some know nothing TROLL calling itself
tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

>
>
> Both of those are way above audio, which only extends to 20kHz.

** While the audible range extends to just a little over 20kHz this has NOTHING to do with the frequencies regularly encountered in *audio electronics*.

You are making a common and BIG mistake !!!

[Phil Allison]

Some ignorant FUCKWIT calling itself

tabb...@gmail.com wrote:



> If all you're doing is audio, any halfway sane scope will do that,
> even that Cossor.



** Absolute BOLLOCKS.

Audio is ELECTRONICS, not sound.

The range of frequencies found in audio electronics extends to frequencies of many MHz. Domestic AM and FM radio deceivers are considered "audio".

Radio microphones are considered "audio".

Faulty ( or badly designed / built ) audio amplifiers may exhibit oscillation upto 50MHz.

Digital audio seems to know no bounds.

... Phil

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, 19 February 2019 20:13:45 UTC, Phil Allison wrote:
> tabbypurr wrote:

> tabby wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Both of those are way above audio, which only extends to 20kHz.
>
>
>
> ** While the audible range extends to just a little over 20kHz this has NOTHING to do with the frequencies regularly encountered in *audio electronics*.

that is stating the obvious, and we've already covered that.

> You are making a common and BIG mistake !!!
>
> A scope suitable for audio electronics needs a BW of at least 10MHz, preferably 50MHz and good waveform resolution - which counts out all the 8 bit "digital" toys being offered today.
>
>
> .... Phil

I've asked you to provide a basis for this claim.


NT

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, 19 February 2019 20:16:31 UTC, Phil Allison wrote:

> tabby wrote:

> > If all you're doing is audio, any halfway sane scope will do that,
> > even that Cossor.
>
>
>
> ** Absolute BOLLOCKS.
>
> Audio is ELECTRONICS, not sound.
>
> The range of frequencies found in audio electronics extends to frequencies of many MHz. Domestic AM and FM radio deceivers are considered "audio".
>
> Radio microphones are considered "audio".

I'm sure we covered this already. The OP did not ask for a scope to do radio work with. He is not servicing hifis.

> Faulty ( or badly designed / built ) audio amplifiers may exhibit oscillation upto 50MHz.

which even a clunky old 1MHz scope can pick up using an envelope detecting diode.

> Digital audio seems to know no bounds.

It's the OPs choice whether to spend 3 figures on a scope that can handle every piece of digital audio in existence or 2 figures for one that can do more or less everything he's likely to work on. Given that he's a curious hobbyist, the latter seems more sensible. However, it is the op's choice, not mine or yours.

There really is no point covering this ground yet again.


NT