Today's Lead Free Crap Solder Stories ...
Arfa Daily
schematics. None were found, and as expected, the importer ignored my pleas,
so I decided I would spend a half hour on it 'blind'.
It turned out to not be too difficult to get the main PCB out, complete with
heatsinks and back panel. The wiring was long enough to allow the board to
be turned over, without having to disconnect everything. The fault was that
one of the two identical output stages was behaving as a pretty good half
wave rectifier, but only with a load connected. With no load, an applied
sine wave was perfectly symmetrical at the output terminals, and of similar
size to the good channel. With a load connected, the negative excursions
disappeared almost totally. Nothing was burning, and the the output protect
didn't even fire until the wick was turned well up, which led me to believe
that the problem may well be back in the driver stages or earlier. As there
are two identical amps, I figured that I would start with a few comparitive
resistance checks between channels. Quickly, I found that at the base pin of
one of the driver transistors, I had a reading of 3k or so on the good
channel, but open circuit at the same point on the bad channel. I followed
the print back and took another reading and Lo! - 3k ...
So I went back to the transistor leg - open, but at the joint, 3k. I tell
you, I examined that joint with the strongest light and magnifier that I
have, but you could not see a problem with it. However, as soon as it was
resoldered, 3k on the leg as well, and the amp then worked normally. This is
the problem with lead free. You can no longer spot bad joints by eye, and
they don't behave like conventional bad joints any more.
The second one was a Vox combo. This one was reported as "goes off after a
while - tap top to get it back". It actually ran for about 2 hours, during
which time I thrashed the output stage so hard you couldn't touch the
heatsink, and periodically knocked seven bells out of it with the butt end
of a large philips screwdy. At no time did it show any signs of
intermittency. I was actually on the phone to the store that it came to me
from, to check if they knew the owner, and whether he was savvy, or a
numpty, when it went off. Just like that. No provocation. You could then
lightly tap the top of the chassis just about anywhere, and it would come
and go at will. So easy was it to make it do it, you would have thought that
the joint causing it would have been really easily spotted. I twisted and
wiggled everything I could, but nothing made it do it, but still the
lightest tap, and there it went.
Eventually, after a frustrating session of blanket resoldering that did no
good at all, I came to a power resistor standing up off the board. It was a
component that I had previously twisted. This time I pulled it, and one leg
just came right out of the board. The joint looked perfectly normal - for
lead-free that is - but it had not whetted the resistor leg at all. How the
hell could that take two hours to go bad, not be responsive at all before
that time, and then when it has gone bad, not respond to twisting, but be so
tap sensitive that you could make it come and go with a feather? I HATE
lead-free with a passion.
If it ever finds its way into avionics, be afraid, be VERY afraid ...
Arfa
Wild_Bill
the present situation can be defined as BOHICA.
Manufacturers haven't been soldering consumer goods properly for decades,
and I agree with your summary, that with lead-free, it's going to get much
worse.
I'm sure some are thinking: Opportunity. No, not when the owner can buy a
new one for less than a repair job.
Did anyone own a RCA Thomson(?) TV of the 90s that didn't fail within two
years? The CTC77 type, for a few series with bad tuner shield soldering,
where the shield was used for needed circuit continuity.
Even so, much earlier, many types of electronic gear failures were a result
of soldering faults/failures.
There was a SER post years ago titled something like; why can't
manufacturers solder?
Apparently the company accountants were in charge of the speed control of
the track feed as the boards passed thru the solder wave bath, it seems.
At double speed, they could potentially save tens-of-thousands of dollars in
solder purchasing costs per year.. or something similar.
As any techs with some years of experience have seen countless times, larger
components that can dissipate more heat during the soldering phase of
manufacturing rarely get soldered properly.
Automation in board fabrication was a huge advancement in electronic
manufacturing, but that wasn't satisfactory for the
accountant/profits-driven manufacturing model.
The Chinese have taken nearly every manufacturing process to a whole 'nother
lower level, even before lead-free.
It's disgusting that the American and other countries' consumers keep buying
this shiney new worthless crap, with much of it being put out for trash
pickup within a year.. year after year (and paying to have it hauled away).
Undoubtedly, many career positions available in waste management.
Get used to the likelyhood that any vacant land will become landfill pits..
who knows, maybe even our national parks.
When the groundwater aquafers are nearly totally fuctup, a fleet of space
shuttles can start hauling it away.
Where's the koolaid line form? I wanna be at the front of the line (if I
even last much longer).
All of this low grade crap manufactured today should be imported only with a
Return to Sender Free agreement. Let them dispose of all this worthless
crap.. and I'm fairly sure they would, and sell it again as recycled, but
fresh, new products.
I try to buy older stuff that was manufactured to a slightly higher level of
quality, which may at least be repairable. Anymore, I only repair my own
stuff, or a limited number of items that I want to, for a few close friends.
What's taken place, I think, which I suspect was intentionally forced upon
most of us, is that manufacturers wanted to lower everyone's expectations of
quality.
With that accomplished, all they need to do is make sure there are shelves
full of new crap to replace the old crap with.
How many times has someone been heard saying; I'll never buy that brand
again, next time I'll buy a (different brand)?
Catch 22.. it's nearly all the same, in retail stores, anyway. Before they
know it, they choose another product from the same brand name they started
with.. and round 'n round it goes.
--
Cheers,
WB
.............
"Arfa Daily" <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:mdlJn.18479$ea4....@newsfe29.ams2...
N_Cook
I'm thinking of making a tug-test tool for PbF checking. Probably based on
an automatic centre punch tool latch mechanism but somehow inverted in
operation. How many ounces or grams of pullout tension do you think a 1/3 W
resistor lead/wire link/TO92 wire should resist pulling out , leaded solder
that is.
--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://diverse.4mg.com/index.htm
Arfa Daily
"N_Cook" <div...@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ht5c0o$2m0$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
I would have thought pretty much to the wire breaking point. How many times
have you hooked a screwdriver or whatever, under a component in order to
unsolder one end, then heated the joint on the other side of the board,
whilst applying pressure to the link / component, only to then have it snap
on you, because you were heating the joint next to the one you were supposed
to be ... :-)
Arfa
N_Cook
>
> "N_Cook" <div...@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:ht5c0o$2m0$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> > Arfa Daily <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> > news:mdlJn.18479$ea4....@newsfe29.ams2...
> >
times
> have you hooked a screwdriver or whatever, under a component in order to
> unsolder one end, then heated the joint on the other side of the board,
> whilst applying pressure to the link / component, only to then have it
snap
> on you, because you were heating the joint next to the one you were
supposed
> to be ... :-)
>
> Arfa
>
>
One problem is ,for likes of TO92 and standardised tug , the use of surgical
artery forceps to grip before pulling, too much grip force and you squash
the lead.
I just tried with a board and counter weights on kitchen scales and I would
say I use about 1Kg of tug with thin nose pliers, pulling perpendicular to
the pcb.
What date was the VOX ? I've previously found 2 ,tug test failing, loose
links due to PbF on a 2005 Vox AC30 , AC30CC2X . Found in passing as
otherwise in for valve and intrusive tremolo initiated rumble
Colin Horsley
I would have thought pretty much to the wire breaking point. How many times
have you hooked a screwdriver or whatever, under a component in order to
unsolder one end, then heated the joint on the other side of the board,
whilst applying pressure to the link / component, only to then have it snap
on you, because you were heating the joint next to the one you were supposed
to be ... :-)
Arfa
______________________
yep, done that!
Colin
Meat Plow
:)
Ron
Come to think of it, lead free solder and volcanic ash look very similar.
Ron
William Sommerwerck
Shouldn't be a problem. How often are F-15s dumped in landfills?
William R. Walsh
> Shouldn't be a problem. How often are F-15s dumped in landfills?
Well, if lead free solder causes failures, and as a result one
crashes...what's to stop the site from being a landfill?
William
Jim Yanik
most of the time,when you have an intermittent,if you tap it,you end up
working the joint to a better connection and you don't see the
intermittent.
you have to leave it alone and wait patiently for the IM to show up,then
lightly tap around to find the area most sensitive.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
Jim Yanik
news:ht61dl$i4s$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
>> If it ever finds its way into avionics, be afraid, be VERY afraid...
>
> Shouldn't be a problem. How often are F-15s dumped in landfills?
>
>
>
there's a guy who bought a scrapped,"demilled" T-38,with a cracked
airframe,he owned a aircraft maintenance shop and was able to restore it to
flight condition,and he has the only civilian,flyable T-38 jet.
It's the trainer version of the F-5 fighter,the "Mig 28" in Top Gun.
Jeffrey D Angus
> What's taken place, I think, which I suspect was intentionally
> forced upon most of us, is that manufacturers wanted to lower
> everyone's expectations of quality.
I've been watching this "trend" since the '70s.
My opinion is that we as consumers have brought this on
ourselves with the attitude of: "I don't care if it's
crap, I want it now, I want it cheap and I'll be bored
with it within a year anyway."
Although this isn't entirely new. You could be cheap or
shoddy merchandise for as long as they've been bartering
from stuff. It's just that the ability to mass produce
garbage has exceeded our wildest expectations.
Jeff
--
�Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of stupidity.�
Frank Leahy, Head coach, Notre Dame 1941-1954
William Sommerwerck
>> forced upon most of us, is that manufacturers wanted to lower
>> everyone's expectations of quality.
> I've been watching this "trend" since the '70s.
> My opinion is that we as consumers have brought this on
> ourselves with the attitude of: "I don't care if it's
> crap, I want it now, I want it cheap and I'll be bored
> with it within a year anyway."
> Although this isn't entirely new. You could be cheap or
> shoddy merchandise for as long as they've been bartering
> from stuff. It's just that the ability to mass produce
> garbage has exceeded our wildest expectations.
I think that's only half the truth. I was born in 1947, and the rate of
technological change is at least five to ten times what it was 50 years ago.
ICs and SMTs, inserted by robots, make possible the "cheap" electronics that
can be easily discarded to make room for the next quarter's spasm of
improvements.
Arfa Daily
It was a Vox Valvetronix combo - one of those things with the built in
digital amp simulator that purports to make it sound like an AC30, or an
AC15, or a Tweed or a 70's Brit amp or an 80's Brit amp, or a dustbin full
of marbles or whatever. I didn't take much notice of what year, but the
board was marked with a PbF symbol. It last crossed my bench two years ago
almost to the day, when the owner had me fit a buffered variable level line
out to the back panel, so at least 2008 and probably a bit before that.
Arfa
Arfa Daily
"Ron" <r...@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:SpadnQMzyv8qGWvW...@bt.com...
Cracker, Ron ! LOL !! :-)))
Arfa
Smitty Two
"Arfa Daily" <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> I HATE
> lead-free with a passion.
I don't doubt your experiences, and of course this isn't your first rant
about lead-free. I think the early lead-free formulas were inherently
bad, but I think some of the new ones are pretty damn good. I don't mind
working with them at all, and find the "solderability" to be on a par
with lead.
I still use a lot of lead, but some of my customers (who sell to Europe)
specify lead-free. We use Sn96.5Ag3Cu0.5 and have been well-satisfied
with it. I tend to agree with Wild Bill, that manufacturing has been
turned over to the bean-counters, and that the quality issues you're
seeing with consumer products may be due more to shitty practices than
to the abandonment of lead.
Arfa Daily
"Jim Yanik" <jya...@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9D7F660E7F973...@216.168.3.44...
Traditionally Jim, I would agree with you for bad joints on leaded solder.
They are predictable, well behaved in terms of tap sensitivity and
sensitivity to heat and cold and board flexing, but above all, for the most
part, readily visible. Lead-free bad joints seem to exhibit no such
tendencies. Their auto-failure and self-recovery often seem to bear no fixed
relationship to temperature, time or the way in which they are disturbed.
The Vox was a good example of that.
It might be argued that the changing of the mature leaded soldering
technology, that was pretty much taped down in terms of 'goodness' of joints
and reliability, for the lead-free technolgy which has taken us back 40
years to the early days of PCB production in terms of reliability, has been
good for the trade because of it bringing more work through the door.
Unfortunately, that hasn't been the case. Whereas I would expect to be able
to find and correct a bad joint on a leaded solder board in a maximum of 15
minutes from putting the item on the bench, with a lead-free bad joint, I
might finish up spending an hour or more on frustrating blanket reworks of
whole areas of joints, using half a reel more of the hateful stuff, because
conventional ways of finding the bad joints no longer work.
If I then tried to charge a proper living wage hourly rate for the job, the
owners would never come back to pick the item up, instead spending their
hard-earned on the latest bigger / better / shinier / cheaper offering from
China ...
Lead-free solder is making items fail much more than they need to, and
rendering repair uneconomic, leading to more equipment scrapping and, with
the best recycling will in the world, more items going to landfill. I wonder
if all the narrow minded inward thinking ecobollox merchants had this in
mind when they came up with their wonderful idea of mandating the use of
lead-free solder as part of their 'save the planet' religion ?
Arfa
Jeff Liebermann
<jan...@suddenlink.net> wrote:
>Wild_Bill wrote:
>> What's taken place, I think, which I suspect was intentionally
>> forced upon most of us, is that manufacturers wanted to lower
>> everyone's expectations of quality.
>
>I've been watching this "trend" since the '70s.
What happened before the 70's? It's not like designed obsolescence is
anything new. Auto manufacturers were doing that since WWII where you
were expected to buy a new car every two years.
>My opinion is that we as consumers have brought this on
>ourselves with the attitude of: "I don't care if it's
>crap, I want it now, I want it cheap and I'll be bored
>with it within a year anyway."
Yep. Blame the victims.
It's really a self fulfilling mechanism. Today's consumers simply
assume that everything they buy is junk and will blow up immediately
after the warranty expires. Why bother paying for quality when
literally everything falls apart or blows up overnight? The only
thing the vendors can compete on is price, resulting in very small
differences in price that can kill or make a product. That also
results in cutting every corner possible, including shoddy soldering,
bitter edge component selection, and designed to fail component
selection.
What seems to be happening is the demise of hand soldering. In the
distant past, it was somewhat traditional to solder mask the large
physical parts, which acted as a heat sink, during wave soldering, and
hand solder them in "touch-up". Component manufacturers have made
heroic attempts to design components that can be properly wave
soldered, but they tend to be expensive. So, to cut costs,
manufacturers seem to be running everything through wave soldering or
vapor reflow soldering machines, including parts that are really are
too massive. Touch-up is eliminated as is burn-in and QA. If it
blows up, by the time the customer returns it, the next generation of
products will be available. That actually worked with tin-lead
solder, but is failing with RoHS solder. The problem seems to be
(i.e. my opinion) that tin-silver solder has a narrower range of
working temperatures than tin-lead. The large physical components
that were previously soldered by hand, simply suck away too much heat
when soldered, resulting in a cold solder joint.
>Although this isn't entirely new. You could be cheap or
>shoddy merchandise for as long as they've been bartering
>from stuff. It's just that the ability to mass produce
>garbage has exceeded our wildest expectations.
Yeah, but you probably couldn't afford it if everything were quality
merchandise.
Anyway, cease complaining. Your test equipment collection is about
the same age as mine and belongs in a museum. It is possible to build
reliable and long life electronics. Just don't expect that from
consumer electronics.
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
N_Cook
news:48idv5teiqm39pfl1...@4ax.com...
My suspicion it is more to do with tinpest rather than lead free solder. A
layer of 100 percent tin tinning of all leads. Often on removing failed
joints , by pulling, not desoldering, you can see the dusty grey surface of
presumably tinpest .
Then volume change (27 percent ?) to the tinpest allotrope of tin and its
insulation rather than conduction causes the electrical break. Mismatch
thermal expansion coefficients don't seem t be problematic
http://www.boulder.nist.gov/div853/lead_free/part1.html#%201.12.
etc on
http://www.boulder.nist.gov/div853/lead_free/props01.html
N_Cook
without having to cross the 13 degree C threshold. Or perhaps accelerate its
conversion if temp does at some point drop below 13 deg C.
Arfa Daily
"Smitty Two" <prest...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:prestwhich-8790E...@newsfarm.iad.highwinds-media.com...
But actually Smitty, it amounts to the same thing, doesn't it ? The cost of
consumer electronic equipment is so low, as has been dictated by the market,
that some shitty practices have to prevail to meet those price points. The
thing is that with leaded solder, those shitty practices that were
solder-related, could be got away with. With lead-free, they can't, so we
are now seeing equipment which manages to conform to the price constraints,
but can't make it any more, in the reliability stakes.
As to the current formulations being better than earlier ones, I'm not sure
that there is actually any difference. Mixes with additional metals to try
to improve the 'workability' of the stuff have been there right from the
start. It's just that they were too expensive to be practical. I guess for
manufacturing quantities, this is no longer the case, and this has
undoubtedly led to an improvement in joint integrity. For sure, lead-free
joints now at least look a bit better than they did, but I am still seeing
many more bad joints on in-warranty, or just out of warranty items, than I
ever did when leaded solder prevailed.
No matter how it's dressed up, the stuff just isn't as good for the job *all
round* as leaded solder was. It has replaced a mature and reliable
technology that had evolved into a process as near perfect as it could be,
with one that at best is a 'next best thing' compromise, and to what benefit
? None that actually stands up to scrutiny in the real world. It was a
politically green agenda fuelled by the hysterical rubbish that gets spouted
about both the real and imagined dangers of lead in the environment, that
lead to the situation that we now have.
Arfa
Smitty Two
"Arfa Daily" <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> But actually Smitty, it amounts to the same thing, doesn't it ? The cost of
> consumer electronic equipment is so low, as has been dictated by the market,
> that some shitty practices have to prevail to meet those price points. The
> thing is that with leaded solder, those shitty practices that were
> solder-related, could be got away with. With lead-free, they can't, so we
> are now seeing equipment which manages to conform to the price constraints,
> but can't make it any more, in the reliability stakes.
I'm not in a position to disagree with you on that score. Safety and
reliability are founded on the principle of "more than one fault" being
needed to create failure, and you may well be right that lead was more
forgiving of shoddy manufacturing processes.
Fortunately, with the exception of some high-end audio, my company
doesn't make any consumer products. Our industrial customers expect
quality first, timely delivery second, and price third. They may squeak
about cost from time to time, but it's never a driving force.
Considering the price of many consumer electronic gadgets, I find it
astonishing that manufacturers can afford to put it in a box and ship it
from China, let alone manufacture it.
Plain...@yahoo.com
There is no doubt lead should not be used where it can wind up being
consumed by humans or animals.. It's use in gasoline, paint, dyes,
ceramic glazes, cast toys, trinkets, etc is indefensible. On the
other hand, banning it's use in ICs, and circuit boards is asinine.
PlainBill
David Nebenzahl
> On Fri, 21 May 2010 02:20:17 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
> <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
[...]
>> Eventually, after a frustrating session of blanket resoldering that
>> did no good at all, I came to a power resistor standing up off the
>> board. It was a component that I had previously twisted. This time
>> I pulled it, and one leg just came right out of the board. The
>> joint looked perfectly normal - for lead-free that is - but it had
>> not whetted the resistor leg at all. How the hell could that take
>> two hours to go bad, not be responsive at all before that time, and
>> then when it has gone bad, not respond to twisting, but be so tap
>> sensitive that you could make it come and go with a feather? I HATE
>> lead-free with a passion.
>>
>> If it ever finds its way into avionics, be afraid, be VERY afraid
>> ...
>
> There is no doubt lead should not be used where it can wind up being
> consumed by humans or animals.. It's use in gasoline, paint, dyes,
> ceramic glazes, cast toys, trinkets, etc is indefensible. On the
> other hand, banning it's use in ICs, and circuit boards is asinine.
Is it really? Think about it: where does the majority of all that crap
end up?
Hint: it sure as hell ain't in approved, safely managed reclamation or
recycling facilities. You know what I'm talking about. So it's the same
with lead-containing consumer electronics as it is with those other
things you mentioned (well, not the same as gasoline, but everything
else there eventually ends up in landfills, waterways, etc.).
--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.
- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)
Smitty Two
David Nebenzahl <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote:
AIUI, 99.9% of the lead in consumer electronics was in CRTs. Isn't there
something like a couple of pounds of the stuff in there? Now that we've
switched to LCDs, that problem has gone away. The amount of lead in a
circuit board is practically negligible.
Jim Yanik
6B93A1.154...@newsfarm.iad.highwinds-media.com:
Yes,and how much actually leaches out from PCBs?
I suspect lead tire-balance weights contribute far more lead to the
environment.(they -have- switched to no-lead alloys)
I find them all the time when I'm out on my bicycle.
I pick them up and melt them into ingots.
David Nebenzahl
Lots. Enough to do real damage. Hence the regulations.
> I suspect lead tire-balance weights contribute far more lead to the
> environment.(they -have- switched to no-lead alloys)
> I find them all the time when I'm out on my bicycle.
> I pick them up and melt them into ingots.
Hey, I do that too! It's almost a reflex with me. Someday someone's
gonna see me stuffing a big ol' wheel weight into my pocket and go
"WTF?????".
I've actually taken a lot of lead out of the environment this way.
Pounds and pounds of it.
David Nebenzahl
You could have said the same thing about leaded gasoline way back when.
The amount of lead in a tankful of tetraethyl lead gasoline is
practically negligible. But you know what? it all adds up. That's why it
was banned.
Arfa Daily
<snip>
> There is no doubt lead should not be used where it can wind up being
> consumed by humans or animals.. It's use in gasoline, paint, dyes,
> ceramic glazes, cast toys, trinkets, etc is indefensible. On the
> other hand, banning it's use in ICs, and circuit boards is asinine.
>
> PlainBill
Yes, I would absolutely agree with those sentiments.
Arfa
Arfa Daily
"David Nebenzahl" <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
news:4bf8595c$0$2375$8226...@news.adtechcomputers.com...
Even if it does end up in landfill, how does the lead get back out of the
components and solder, into the environment. Hint, it doesn't ...
Arfa
David Nebenzahl
How the hell can you say that with such cocksure certainty?
Look; we *know* that all kinds of things can leach out of landfills.
There's all kinds of shit in there besides PC boards, enough compounds
to make a chemical brew capable of leaching lead (and other metals) into
the surrounding area.
Yeah, sure: "they"--you know, the little elves that watch over us
all--say they make sure to seal the landfill, cap it with impervious
material, keep anything from leaching out. Do you believe them? I sure
don't.
I think this is just an irresponsible attitude on your part and on
others here. I *totally* agree with your other complaints about
lead-free solder: it's clearly a pain in the ass. But to listen to you
and others here go on about it, you'd think these rules were simply
capricious actions of some pinheaded Eurocrats who don't know what the
hell they're talking about. I think you're wrong about that.
And I don't want to live in an environment full of lead, thank you very
much.
hr(bob) hofmann@att.net
> On 5/22/2010 5:42 PM Arfa Daily spake thus:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "David Nebenzahl" <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
> >news:4bf8595c$0$2375$8226...@news.adtechcomputers.com...
>
> - Show quoted text -
But does the lead in the glass of crt's leach out, I don't think so.
Wild_Bill
The feeling of power must feel great.
What's taking place today would likely not have needed to happen if anyone
had been willing to invest in proper technologies for recycling.
During times of prosperity (or non-crisis), the majority of humans ignore
that their wasteful habits will have consequences.
Would cost effective reclamation of metals from circuit boards been so
difficult or costly to just ignore it?
Yep, it costs too much today to do anything about it.
I'm sure there were many earlier believers in recycling before the 1960s,
but it was easier to ignore the value of recycling. Even now the half-assed
measures to collect and recycle are very inefficient.
Was legislation needed to get folks to separate cans from household waste?
Some places have penalties/fines for finding recycleable materials in a
household's trash cans.. yep, trashcan cops, probably with a good salary and
benefits.
Maybe it's time that commercial and industrial dumpsters were
inspected/monitored.
Waste has been a major issue for a very long time, but no one has wanted to
invest in technologies to efficiently recycle reuseable materials.
Eeeewww, it's garbage.
So it seems that were faced with polluting the small amounts of clean water
left on the planet. But water can be treated.. astronauts drink their own
urine, after all.
But then, they're not eating nicad batteries or other deadly chemicals.
We've all seen what takes place for control over oil, just wait and see the
huge shitstorm when the control of clean water becomes a major issue (it's
already started).
Landfill liners are secure, the water is clean, and a few other claims that
are up the top of the list since one was taken off; there's no link between
tobacco and cancer.
--
Cheers,
WB
.............
"David Nebenzahl" <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
news:4bf87dd4$0$2359$8226...@news.adtechcomputers.com...
David Nebenzahl
> But does the lead in the glass of crt's leach out, I don't think so.
In my 'hood, most of the TVs and monitors that get put out on the street
end up broken. CRT smashed to pieces. The city eventually comes along
and picks them up and takes them to the dump. It's a lot easier for lead
to leach out of broken pieces of glass.
Michael A. Terrell
The EPA had to grind them to a fine dust, then use a strong acid to
remove some lead. Then they claimed that CRTs had 27 pounds of lead.
--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.
Sergey Kubushyn
Wow, that must've been a huge CRT... Or the rest of the CRT must've been
made of negative-weight materials...
As of "And I don't want to live in an environment full of lead, thank you very
much." -- where do you think that lead came from in the first place? Did
somebody bring it from the Moon?
---
******************************************************************
* KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
* Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. *
******************************************************************
Adrian Tuddenham
> On 5/22/2010 5:42 PM Arfa Daily spake thus:
>
[...]
> > Even if it does end up in landfill, how does the lead get back out of the
> > components and solder, into the environment. Hint, it doesn't ...
>
> How the hell can you say that with such cocksure certainty?
>
> Look; we *know* that all kinds of things can leach out of landfills.
> There's all kinds of shit in there besides PC boards, enough compounds
> to make a chemical brew capable of leaching lead (and other metals) into
> the surrounding area.
As far as I am aware, there was no proof offered that lead had been
leaching out of electronic solder in land-fill when the politicians came
to legislate on banning lead from solder. In the U.K. there were no
scientists or engineers on the committee that took that decision; and
the "self-evident fact" that lead was causing a problem was accepted
without question. I have yet to hear of any meaningful research which
backs up that decision.
There is little doubt, from the evidence coming in from all across the
electronics industry, that lead-free solder is decreasing the
reliability of equipment and increasing the cost of manufacture and the
amount of waste (containing other, more soluble, toxic materials) going
into landfill. The overall environmental effect of the anti-lead
legislation is the opposite of what we are trying to achieve.
Banning automated assembly of consumer electronics would be a much more
environmentally-friendly move as it would reduce production, increase
the price and ecourage consumers to hang on to their existing kit. It
might also encourage the manufacturers to make things in a way which
could be repaired. Anyone want to campaign for that?
There is plenty of "cocksure certainty" on both sides of the argument.
That wouldn't matter if it was just an argument, but unfounded prejudice
should not be allowed to dictate legislation.
--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
William Sommerwerck
> paint, dyes, ceramic glazes, cast toys, trinkets, etc is indefensible.
> On the other hand, banning it's use in ICs, and circuit boards is
asinine.
The anti-lead argument is that too much electronic equipment is dumped in
landfills, where acidic rainwater slowly dissolves the lead and it winds up
in the water supply. This is plausible, but I've yet to see any proof.
My argument has long been that the only dangerous substances are those that
actually get into the environment.
William Sommerwerck
> Isn't there something like a couple of pounds of the stuff in
> there? Now that we've switched to LCDs, that problem has gone
> away. The amount of lead in a circuit board is practically negligible.
Not when you have tens of thousands of circuit boards rotting in a landfill.
Arfa Daily
<snip>
>
> Look; we *know* that all kinds of things can leach out of landfills.
> There's all kinds of shit in there besides PC boards, enough compounds to
> make a chemical brew capable of leaching lead (and other metals) into the
> surrounding area.
>
> Yeah, sure: "they"--you know, the little elves that watch over us all--say
> they make sure to seal the landfill, cap it with impervious material, keep
> anything from leaching out. Do you believe them? I sure don't.
>
> I think this is just an irresponsible attitude on your part and on others
> here. I *totally* agree with your other complaints about lead-free solder:
> it's clearly a pain in the ass.
***********************************************************************************
>But to listen to you and others here go on about it, you'd think these
>rules were simply capricious actions of some pinheaded Eurocrats who don't
>know what the hell they're talking about. I think you're wrong about that.
****************************************************************************************
>
> And I don't want to live in an environment full of lead, thank you very
> much.
Actually, I would say that pretty much sums up *exactly* what we have here.
The conventional wisdom that is thrust upon the public in regard of the
dangers of lead solder and lead glass in landfill, is that it gets washed
out by rain water into the water table below. Lead in metallic form is not
soluble in water, and the tin / lead compound of solder, is chemically very
stable, and no more susceptible to breakdown by water. Lead does not leach
out of glass at all, unless it is pulverised into an extremely fine powder.
For decades, water was supplied to houses via lead pipes. If the lead
dissolved that easily, they would have needed continuous replacement.
Rainwater sealing on roofs is traditionally done with lead sheeting. This is
subject to continuous bombardment by the rain, including water containing
mixes of often quite noxious airborne pollutants. Many buildings hundreds of
years old, still have their original lead roof.
I don't doubt that if you try hard enough, you can show lead being gotten
out of solder into the environment. I too have no desire to live in an
environment full of lead, and initiatives like removing it from petrol, and
paints, where it could - and did - readily get into the atmosphere, were
very much the right ones, but unfortunately, the word "lead" became rapidly
synonomous with "bad" and "pollutant" such that a religious hysteria became
attached to the banning of any and all items containing it. Banning it's use
in solder and electronic equipment was a needless over-reaction that has
caused endless knock-on effects that were never considered by the zealots
who made the proposals. Not the least of these is the increased energy
budget to work with the stuff (you need more heat).
Aside from this, there is no reason at all, given the WEEE directive that
was introduced, that effectively prevents electronic items going to
landfill, that electronic equipment should not be properly recycled, and
the solder, and hence its lead content, recovered. The banning of leaded
solder and its replacement with lead-free, was a solution to a problem that
did not actually exist in the first place, and even if it did, had a rather
better solution already in hand, with the impending introduction of the WEEE
directive ...
If you research the use of lead a bit more, you will find that over 80% of
the world's production goes to the manufacture of automotive batteries.
There was no technology sufficiently developed to replace this robust
workhorse, which forced some proper thinking about how to deal with them at
their end of life. Now, just about 100% of car batteries are recycled, and
their lead recovered.
Arfa
Arfa Daily
"David Nebenzahl" <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
> On 5/22/2010 7:44 PM hr(bob) hof...@att.net spake thus:
>
>> On May 22, 8:05 pm, David Nebenzahl <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah, sure: "they"--you know, the little elves that watch over us
>>> all--say they make sure to seal the landfill, cap it with impervious
>>> material, keep anything from leaching out. Do you believe them? I sure
>>> don't.
>>>
>>> I think this is just an irresponsible attitude on your part and on
>>> others here. I *totally* agree with your other complaints about
>>> lead-free solder: it's clearly a pain in the ass. But to listen to you
>>> and others here go on about it, you'd think these rules were simply
>>> capricious actions of some pinheaded Eurocrats who don't know what the
>>> hell they're talking about. I think you're wrong about that.
>>>
>>> And I don't want to live in an environment full of lead, thank you very
>>> much.
>>
>> But does the lead in the glass of crt's leach out, I don't think so.
>
> In my 'hood, most of the TVs and monitors that get put out on the street
> end up broken. CRT smashed to pieces. The city eventually comes along and
> picks them up and takes them to the dump. It's a lot easier for lead to
> leach out of broken pieces of glass.
>
>
No, actually it isn't. You are a victim of the hysterical nonsense that is
put about by the anti-lead-in-everything brigade ...
Arfa
Arfa Daily
"Adrian Tuddenham" <adr...@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:1jixt4c.17yzawmw8pvsN%adr...@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid...
A succinct and nicely measured evaluation of the situation, Adrian
Arfa
William Sommerwerck
> If the lead dissolved that easily, they would have needed
> continuous replacement. Rainwater sealing on roofs is
> traditionally done with lead sheeting. This is subject to
> continuous bombardment by the rain, including water
> containing mixes of often quite noxious airborne pollutants.
> Many buildings hundreds of years old, still have their original
> lead roof.
The Romans used lead pipes to carry water, and some people believe this
contributed to "the decline and fall". The Romans also used lead acetate to
sweeten their wine, which might also have poisoned them.
William Sommerwerck
One of the reasons tetraethyl lead was removed from gasoline, and lead oxide
from paint, was that there was no question it was getting into people's
systems. This, as far as I know, has not been show for lead from landfills.
David Nebenzahl
> Aside from this, there is no reason at all, given the WEEE directive that
> was introduced, that effectively prevents electronic items going to
> landfill, that electronic equipment should not be properly recycled, and
> the solder, and hence its lead content, recovered. The banning of leaded
> solder and its replacement with lead-free, was a solution to a problem that
> did not actually exist in the first place, and even if it did, had a rather
> better solution already in hand, with the impending introduction of the WEEE
> directive ...
I would feel very differently about this whole matter if there were
proper recycling programs in place for "E-waste", *and* if those
programs were actually used by the public. As it is, I see lots and lots
of electronics going into the dumpster--literally, meaning the dumpster
into which I put my trash, which regularly gets contributions of old
cell phones, wireless routers, PC cards, etc., etc.
And this can't be blamed entirely on the great unwashed masses: if
things were set up fairly, then manufacturers would be forced to take
responsibility for their "E-waste" and offer incentives for people to
not throw stuff in the trash.
If that were the case, that we had functioning recycling programs that
captured something like 80-90% of this waste stream, then maybe it might
be a good idea to go back to good old lead solder.
David Nebenzahl
> On 5/23/2010 9:24 AM Arfa Daily spake thus:
>
>> Aside from this, there is no reason at all, given the WEEE directive that
>> was introduced, that effectively prevents electronic items going to
>> landfill, that electronic equipment should not be properly recycled, and
>> the solder, and hence its lead content, recovered. The banning of leaded
>> solder and its replacement with lead-free, was a solution to a problem that
>> did not actually exist in the first place, and even if it did, had a rather
>> better solution already in hand, with the impending introduction of the WEEE
>> directive ...
>
> I would feel very differently about this whole matter if there were
> proper recycling programs in place for "E-waste", *and* if those
> programs were actually used by the public. As it is, I see lots and lots
> of electronics going into the dumpster--literally, meaning the dumpster
> into which I put my trash, which regularly gets contributions of old
> cell phones, wireless routers, PC cards, etc., etc.
>
> If that were the case, that we had functioning recycling programs that
> captured something like 80-90% of this waste stream, then maybe it might
> be a good idea to go back to good old lead solder.
Forgot to add: Not to mention the energy and resource-recovery savings
that could be realized by recycling. But this raises questions: how
possible is it to recover materials from recycled electronics? It seems
it might be worthwhile, especially if some of the more expensive and
rare materials (like silver, platinum, tantalum, etc.) could be
recovered. But how easy is this to do in the real world? Can you grind
up old circuit boards and then try to extract stuff from the bits and
pieces? Use strong chemical brews to extract metals? Does this require
pulling components off by hand (cost-prohibitive except in impoverished
overseas places)? How is this actually done?
Michael A. Terrell
> >
> >
> > The EPA had to grind them to a fine dust, then use a strong acid to
> > remove some lead. Then they claimed that CRTs had 27 pounds of lead.
>
> Wow, that must've been a huge CRT... Or the rest of the CRT must've been
> made of negative-weight materials...
Actually they said, 'Every TV has 27 pounds of lead'. Someone owes
me at least a half ton, because I have a lot of 4" TVs and monitors that
weigh less than 2 ponds, and the CRT is only a few ounces.
> As of "And I don't want to live in an environment full of lead, thank you very
> much." -- where do you think that lead came from in the first place? Did
> somebody bring it from the Moon?
Typical Bureaucratic crap. They have to occasionally do something
even though it's usually wrong. :(
Michael A. Terrell
David Nebenzahl wrote:
>
> On 5/23/2010 12:52 PM David Nebenzahl spake thus:
>
> > On 5/23/2010 9:24 AM Arfa Daily spake thus:
> >
> >> Aside from this, there is no reason at all, given the WEEE directive that
> >> was introduced, that effectively prevents electronic items going to
> >> landfill, that electronic equipment should not be properly recycled, and
> >> the solder, and hence its lead content, recovered. The banning of leaded
> >> solder and its replacement with lead-free, was a solution to a problem that
> >> did not actually exist in the first place, and even if it did, had a rather
> >> better solution already in hand, with the impending introduction of the WEEE
> >> directive ...
> >
> > I would feel very differently about this whole matter if there were
> > proper recycling programs in place for "E-waste", *and* if those
> > programs were actually used by the public. As it is, I see lots and lots
> > of electronics going into the dumpster--literally, meaning the dumpster
> > into which I put my trash, which regularly gets contributions of old
> > cell phones, wireless routers, PC cards, etc., etc.
Recycling is easy if you impose a fee on new equipment, and only
refund it when old equipment is turned in.
> > If that were the case, that we had functioning recycling programs that
> > captured something like 80-90% of this waste stream, then maybe it might
> > be a good idea to go back to good old lead solder.
>
> Forgot to add: Not to mention the energy and resource-recovery savings
> that could be realized by recycling. But this raises questions: how
> possible is it to recover materials from recycled electronics? It seems
> it might be worthwhile, especially if some of the more expensive and
> rare materials (like silver, platinum, tantalum, etc.) could be
> recovered. But how easy is this to do in the real world? Can you grind
> up old circuit boards and then try to extract stuff from the bits and
> pieces? Use strong chemical brews to extract metals? Does this require
> pulling components off by hand (cost-prohibitive except in impoverished
> overseas places)? How is this actually done?
They can, and do grind up old PC boards. Scrap fiberglass PC boards
also yield reusable fiber that can be used to make small boat hulls,
bathtubs and hot tubs.
The boards are ground to small pieces, then soaked in hot acid to
remove all the metals. The fiberglass is mechanically separated from
the plastic & ceramic scrap. The metals are recovered from the acid,
and refined like raw ore. A Japanese company holds the early patents
Michael A. Terrell
Old landfills are being mined for recyclables in some places.
David Nebenzahl
> David Nebenzahl wrote:
>
>> Forgot to add: Not to mention the energy and resource-recovery savings
>> that could be realized by recycling. But this raises questions: how
>> possible is it to recover materials from recycled electronics? It seems
>> it might be worthwhile, especially if some of the more expensive and
>> rare materials (like silver, platinum, tantalum, etc.) could be
>> recovered. But how easy is this to do in the real world? Can you grind
>> up old circuit boards and then try to extract stuff from the bits and
>> pieces? Use strong chemical brews to extract metals? Does this require
>> pulling components off by hand (cost-prohibitive except in impoverished
>> overseas places)? How is this actually done?
>
> They can, and do grind up old PC boards. Scrap fiberglass PC boards
> also yield reusable fiber that can be used to make small boat hulls,
> bathtubs and hot tubs.
>
> The boards are ground to small pieces, then soaked in hot acid to
> remove all the metals. The fiberglass is mechanically separated from
> the plastic & ceramic scrap. The metals are recovered from the acid,
> and refined like raw ore. A Japanese company holds the early patents
Maybe we're not so far apart on this issue after all. The goal shouldn't
be to just mindlessly ban things, but to set up a system to keep
dangerous and toxic things from hurting us. As is already done with a
lot of other materials. So if a reliable and widely-used recycling
system can be set up, that would solve the problem nicely.
Jim Yanik
news:htbsee$fkm$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
of course running water,possibly acidic,could dissolve lead into the water.
But landfills don't have running water,the buried refuse should not even be
immersed in water,and other materials could neutralize or diminish any
acidity.
William Sommerwerck
>> people believe this contributed to "the decline and fall".
>> The Romans also used lead acetate to sweeten their
>> wine, which might also have poisoned them.
> of course running water,possibly acidic,could dissolve lead
> into the water. But landfills don't have running water...
It's called "rain".
Arfa Daily
"David Nebenzahl" <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
> On 5/23/2010 12:52 PM David Nebenzahl spake thus:
>
>> On 5/23/2010 9:24 AM Arfa Daily spake thus:
>>
>>> Aside from this, there is no reason at all, given the WEEE directive
>>> that was introduced, that effectively prevents electronic items going to
>>> landfill, that electronic equipment should not be properly recycled,
>>> and the solder, and hence its lead content, recovered. The banning of
>>> leaded solder and its replacement with lead-free, was a solution to a
>>> problem that did not actually exist in the first place, and even if it
>>> did, had a rather better solution already in hand, with the impending
>>> introduction of the WEEE directive ...
>>
>> I would feel very differently about this whole matter if there were
>> proper recycling programs in place for "E-waste", *and* if those programs
>> were actually used by the public. As it is, I see lots and lots of
>> electronics going into the dumpster--literally, meaning the dumpster into
>> which I put my trash, which regularly gets contributions of old cell
>> phones, wireless routers, PC cards, etc., etc.
>>
>> If that were the case, that we had functioning recycling programs that
>> captured something like 80-90% of this waste stream, then maybe it might
>> be a good idea to go back to good old lead solder.
>
You may not have any kind of mandated regulations in your part of the world,
but we do over here in the UK and the rest of Europe. Implementation is a
little patchy so far, and some countries are acting more on the WEEE
directive than others, but the ultimate goal is to make all manufacturers
responsible for the collection of their goods at end of life, and to then
handle either the safe disposal or dismantling and recycling of them.
Electronic recycling companies are springing up all over the UK, and
handling this work under contract. All municipal garbage disposal sites are
now charged with recycling the items that the public brings to them, and
have bins divided by the type of garbage that they are for. There is always
one now for electronic equipment.
Instead of the ludicrous scheme of replacing leaded solder with a less than
satisfactory alternative, a bit of joined up thinking, divorced from the
"remove lead from everything" hysteria, could have resulted in a proper
recycling scheme being introduced much quicker, and without all of the short
and long term problems that the whole RoHS mess has produced for
manufacturers and service organisations alike.
They managed it for automotive batteries without any fuss, because there
*was* no alternative that was remotely suitable for the job. As I said
before, these are now silently and unobtrusively spirited away, and 100%
recycled.
Arfa
Arfa Daily
"David Nebenzahl" <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
> On 5/23/2010 3:03 PM Michael A. Terrell spake thus:
>
>> David Nebenzahl wrote:
> >
>>> Forgot to add: Not to mention the energy and resource-recovery savings
>>> that could be realized by recycling. But this raises questions: how
>>> possible is it to recover materials from recycled electronics? It seems
>>> it might be worthwhile, especially if some of the more expensive and
>>> rare materials (like silver, platinum, tantalum, etc.) could be
>>> recovered. But how easy is this to do in the real world? Can you grind
>>> up old circuit boards and then try to extract stuff from the bits and
>>> pieces? Use strong chemical brews to extract metals? Does this require
>>> pulling components off by hand (cost-prohibitive except in impoverished
>>> overseas places)? How is this actually done?
>>
>> They can, and do grind up old PC boards. Scrap fiberglass PC boards
>> also yield reusable fiber that can be used to make small boat hulls,
>> bathtubs and hot tubs.
>>
>> The boards are ground to small pieces, then soaked in hot acid to
>> remove all the metals. The fiberglass is mechanically separated from
>> the plastic & ceramic scrap. The metals are recovered from the acid,
>> and refined like raw ore. A Japanese company holds the early patents
>
> Maybe we're not so far apart on this issue after all. The goal shouldn't
> be to just mindlessly ban things, but to set up a system to keep dangerous
> and toxic things from hurting us. As is already done with a lot of other
> materials. So if a reliable and widely-used recycling system can be set
> up, that would solve the problem nicely.
>
>
Yes indeedy. You're beginning to see the bigger (and better) picture, now
that you're starting to stop and think about the faulty eco-hysteria that
brought about the change in the first place ... :-)
Arfa
N_Cook
news:gUjKn.14885$ge....@newsfe05.ams2...
So what exactly can be recycled from electronic scrap, ie the circuit boards
not plastic casing and metal chassis. Gold from edge connectors if 1970s
boards but not anything since has been economic to process legitimately in
the UK. The rest is mixed plastic and glass fibre and processed sand. As 50
percent of shipping containers leave the UK empty (recent UK BBC4 doc on
"boxes"), the shipping fees for sending scrap boards to be "processed" in
India costs next to nothing , little more than admin costs.
Arfa Daily
"N_Cook" <div...@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:htda0o$dtd$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Well, if nothing else, I'm sure that the bulk of the solder could be fairly
easily removed, but as someone else commented - Michael I think it was -
boards *are* ground up, and the various materials separated and recovered,
including the fibreglass itself, which is then used for boat hulls and bath
tubs, I think he said. Perhaps Michael knows of some reference on the 'net
to this ??
Arfa
N_Cook
>
> "N_Cook" <div...@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:htda0o$dtd$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> > Arfa Daily <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> > news:gUjKn.14885$ge....@newsfe05.ams2...
> >>
> >> "David Nebenzahl" <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
> >> news:4bf987fe$0$2362$8226...@news.adtechcomputers.com...
> >> > On 5/23/2010 12:52 PM David Nebenzahl spake thus:
> >> >
> Well, if nothing else, I'm sure that the bulk of the solder could be
fairly
> easily removed, but as someone else commented - Michael I think it was -
> boards *are* ground up, and the various materials separated and recovered,
> including the fibreglass itself, which is then used for boat hulls and
bath
> tubs, I think he said. Perhaps Michael knows of some reference on the 'net
> to this ??
>
> Arfa
>
>
You cannot recover the solder by a process like mechanically stripping
plastic insulation off copper wire , legal in the UK if plastic is recycled,
burning off illegal.
So container loads of it ends up in India to be set fire to and the glass
matting ends up in their dumps and the water courses etc as no economic
value even in India, as far too contaminated and messy
Sergey Kubushyn
>>
>> > There is no doubt lead should not be used where it can wind
>> > up being consumed by humans or animals. It's use in gasoline,
>> > paint, dyes, ceramic glazes, cast toys, trinkets, etc is indefensible.
>> > On the other hand, banning it's use in ICs, and circuit boards is
>> asinine.
>>
>> The anti-lead argument is that too much electronic equipment is dumped in
>> landfills, where acidic rainwater slowly dissolves the lead and it winds up
>> in the water supply. This is plausible, but I've yet to see any proof.
>>
>> My argument has long been that the only dangerous substances are those that
>> actually get into the environment.
>
>
> Old landfills are being mined for recyclables in some places.
You guys should've seen our shooting range... One 7.62mm bullet probably
has more lead than an average CD player or whatever had in it when it was
not lead-free. I usually spend at least 200 rounds every time I visit the
range. And I'm not the only one shooting there :)
There are some guys that come something like twice a year to mine for that
lead...
David Nebenzahl
> Arfa Daily <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:CwrKn.672$c74...@newsfe04.ams2...
>
>> Well, if nothing else, I'm sure that the bulk of the solder could
>> be fairly easily removed, but as someone else commented - Michael I
>> think it was - boards *are* ground up, and the various materials
>> separated and recovered, including the fibreglass itself, which is
>> then used for boat hulls and bath tubs, I think he said. Perhaps
>> Michael knows of some reference on the 'net to this ??
>
> You cannot recover the solder by a process like mechanically
> stripping plastic insulation off copper wire , legal in the UK if
> plastic is recycled, burning off illegal. So container loads of it
> ends up in India to be set fire to and the glass matting ends up in
> their dumps and the water courses etc as no economic value even in
> India, as far too contaminated and messy
You're not reading, or not paying attention: Michael Terrell explained
how materials are recovered from ground-up circuit boards, and it
doesn't involve any burning like you speculated. Not that this isn't
done in places like India, but that's not the way it's *supposed* to be
done.
I can't vouch for the veracity of what Terrell wrote, just reporting
what he said. I'd like some references too, but for now we have to take
him at his word. Which is that the materials in circuit boards *are*
recoverable using presumably environmentally-safe methods.
George Jetson
news:htbace$3g7$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
One of the landfills in our area (Ohio USA) has been burning from inside
lately and releasing all sorts of smells and gases. Aluminum waste reacting
with acids or detergent residues can generate hydrogen and lots of heat. If
you mix in some old lead based circuit boards the runoff could get toxic
pretty fast.
Landfills are not controlled storage facilities and putting anything in one
even potentially toxic is a real bad idea.
--
They can have my command prompt when they pry it from my cold dead fingers.
Arfa Daily
"David Nebenzahl" <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
> On 5/24/2010 2:35 AM N_Cook spake thus:
>
>> Arfa Daily <arfa....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>> news:CwrKn.672$c74...@newsfe04.ams2...
>>
>>> Well, if nothing else, I'm sure that the bulk of the solder could be
>>> fairly easily removed, but as someone else commented - Michael I
>>> think it was - boards *are* ground up, and the various materials
>>> separated and recovered, including the fibreglass itself, which is then
>>> used for boat hulls and bath tubs, I think he said. Perhaps
>>> Michael knows of some reference on the 'net to this ??
>>
>> You cannot recover the solder by a process like mechanically stripping
>> plastic insulation off copper wire , legal in the UK if plastic is
>> recycled, burning off illegal. So container loads of it
>> ends up in India to be set fire to and the glass matting ends up in
>> their dumps and the water courses etc as no economic value even in
>> India, as far too contaminated and messy
>
> You're not reading, or not paying attention: Michael Terrell explained how
> materials are recovered from ground-up circuit boards, and it doesn't
> involve any burning like you speculated. Not that this isn't done in
> places like India, but that's not the way it's *supposed* to be done.
>
> I can't vouch for the veracity of what Terrell wrote, just reporting what
> he said. I'd like some references too, but for now we have to take him at
> his word. Which is that the materials in circuit boards *are* recoverable
> using presumably environmentally-safe methods.
>
>
>
I put something like "recycling solder on circuit boards" into Google, and
there are many links to sites explaining the processes involved. Wiki has
quite a good article about it.
Arfa
Michael A. Terrell
I saw it in an electronics manufacturing trade journal about 10 years
ago. Unfortunately, I had to leave all of them where I was working at
the time.
Adrian Tuddenham
> "William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:htbace$3g7$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> >> There is no doubt lead should not be used where it can wind
> >> up being consumed by humans or animals. It's use in gasoline,
> >> paint, dyes, ceramic glazes, cast toys, trinkets, etc is indefensible.
> >> On the other hand, banning it's use in ICs, and circuit boards is
> > asinine.
> >
> > The anti-lead argument is that too much electronic equipment is dumped in
> > landfills, where acidic rainwater slowly dissolves the lead and it winds
> > up
> > in the water supply. This is plausible, but I've yet to see any proof.
> >
> > My argument has long been that the only dangerous substances are those
> > that
> > actually get into the environment.
> >
> >
>
> One of the landfills in our area (Ohio USA) has been burning from inside
> lately and releasing all sorts of smells and gases. Aluminum waste reacting
> with acids or detergent residues can generate hydrogen and lots of heat. If
> you mix in some old lead based circuit boards the runoff could get toxic
> pretty fast.
Is anyone measuring it and are they going to publish the results?
--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
Baron
Just for the record here's a few pictures of a laptop power socket that
used lead free solder. You can see the erosion caused by poor
electrical conductivity of the joint between the center pin and the
circuit board. The hole was originally plated through but there was
little left of the plating. An open circuit and discharged battery
resulted in a non working machine.
Check in "alt.binaries.schematics.electronic" for the pictures.
--
Best Regards:
Baron.
George Jetson
All sorts of unplanned groundwater pollution is expected from this fire,
possibly triggered by accepting metallic foundry waste. Ohio is still
discovering unknown toxic waste dumps and the remaining industry keeps
finding ways to make new ones. Greed and capitalism will not solve all our
problems.
It seems cheaper to pollute, get fined repeatedly and go bankrupt before
paying the bill. If we shot the CEO's afterwards they might start getting
the idea its not ok.
Wild_Bill
pick up the costs of correcting these problems (the folks in the agencies
don't live near the problems).
There appear to be groups that would prefer to study these disasters, and a
huge lack of any action to correct these problems.
The citizens' money, clean water and air will all be properly disposed of.
Part of the problem, the EPA's Allen said, "is that underground fires are
still a relatively new problem for the agency". Bullshit.. followed by this
sentence:
The first occurred 10 years ago at a Trumbull County landfill.
I wasn't able to find any info specifically concerning the Trumble County
landfill.
The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania actually accepts municipal (and probably
industrial) waste to be hauled into PA from as many as 15 other states
(maybe more, now).
Since PA is bordered by only 6 states, this would mean that states beyond
the bordering states are hauling waste long distances to dump waste into PA
landfills.. that's a lot of fuel, whether the waste is moved by truck or
railway.
According to statistics, Americans generated nearly 230 million tons of
municipal solid waste in 1999 (when many stores didn't sell practically all
made in China goods). This number is included in a document entitled:
Landfill Fires Their Magnitude, Characteristics, and Mitigation - May
2002/FA-225.
Of the 230M tons, it's stated that 28% was recycled, and 15% incinerated
(which I don't suppose includes the incineration taking place in active
landfill fires).
*The coal beneath Centralia PA has been burning since 1962, and is precicted
to burn for another 250 years. The Post Office revoked it's zip code.
A concerned citizen offered to dig out the fire for $175 at the beginning.
Bureaucracy inaction followed.
Congress allocated over $42 million for relocation efforts in 1984.
--
Cheers,
WB
.............
"George Jetson" <GJe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:htf2fh$qea$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Mark Zenier
William Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> There is no doubt lead should not be used where it can wind
>> up being consumed by humans or animals. It's use in gasoline,
>> paint, dyes, ceramic glazes, cast toys, trinkets, etc is indefensible.
>> On the other hand, banning it's use in ICs, and circuit boards is
>asinine.
>
>The anti-lead argument is that too much electronic equipment is dumped in
>landfills, where acidic rainwater slowly dissolves the lead and it winds up
>in the water supply. This is plausible, but I've yet to see any proof.
>
>My argument has long been that the only dangerous substances are those that
>actually get into the environment.
But as I remember reading business magazines back 20-25 years ago, the
real push to get nasty stuff out of the waste streams were the companies
that built and wanted to run garbage incinerators, so they could get
free fuel to run electric generators. This would reduce their expenses
for sorting the stuff coming in and scrubbing the stuff going out.
Pretty easy to see how big outfits would, by lobbying the legislators
and bureaucrats, influence the various governments, and after a while,
the whole idea would get institutionalized. Even if opposition managed
to cut down on the number of incinerators actually built, the laws and
regulations live on.
Mark Zenier mze...@eskimo.com
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)