Alarm system transformer + power supply (would both go bad at once?)

[Danny D'Amico]

Dead alarm system troubleshooting advice requested ...
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5540/10989825326_f3fcb528ab_o.gif

Yesterday, I had been messing with the main breakers, and accidentally
shut the main 200A breaker without turning off the power generator switch;
so the Generac kicked in; and I heard the alarm system in the garage
vehemently complaining with persistent loud beeps.

I immediately reset everything, and I thought it was all ok.

Then, today, the alarm system sounded three loud long beeps, and
went totally dead.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5522/10989723005_3ee48ee609_o.gif

Troubleshooting with my Fluke after removing the alarm system external
wires shows the external ELK-TRG21640 16.5VAC, 45VA power-supply
transformer plugged into an outlet has an open secondary, and when
plugged into an extension cord, there is no voltage from any of the
three screws on the secondary windings:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/10989885984_72d64103f6_o.gif

If I thought it was that simple, I'd just replace the transformer;
but I wondered why the backup battery didn't run the alarm system.
Testing the 12V 5AH battery out of the alarm system shows it's 13.5
volts DC (no load open circuit voltage), which, at least seems OK
(I don't know how to load it though):
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3731/10989888274_6ed9f59f77_o.gif

So, two things must be wrong:
1. The ELK AC transformer secondary opened up suddenly
2. Maybe the power supply inside the alarm system box went bad suddenly
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3751/10989824356_41ff0ca903_o.gif

Do you think shutting the breaker without turning off the generator
could have blown the alarm system?

Any other troubleshooting suggestions?

[Phil Allison]

"Danny D'Amico"

> Dead alarm system troubleshooting advice requested ...

> Yesterday, I had been messing with the main breakers, and accidentally
> shut the main 200A breaker without turning off the power generator switch;
> so the Generac kicked in; and I heard the alarm system in the garage
> vehemently complaining with persistent loud beeps.
>
> I immediately reset everything, and I thought it was all ok.
>
> Then, today, the alarm system sounded three loud long beeps, and
> went totally dead.
>

> Troubleshooting with my Fluke after removing the alarm system external
> wires shows the external ELK-TRG21640 16.5VAC, 45VA power-supply
> transformer plugged into an outlet has an open secondary, and when
> plugged into an extension cord, there is no voltage from any of the
> three screws on the secondary windings:
> http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/10989885984_72d64103f6_o.gif

** There must be a fuse inside that unit - wired in series with the 16.5V
secondary.

> If I thought it was that simple, I'd just replace the transformer;
> but I wondered why the backup battery didn't run the alarm system.

** It's probably worn out .

> Testing the 12V 5AH battery out of the alarm system shows it's 13.5
> volts DC (no load open circuit voltage), which, at least seems OK

** Open circuit testing a gell cell tells you nothing.

> (I don't know how to load it though):

> So, two things must be wrong:
> 1. The ELK AC transformer secondary opened up suddenly
> 2. Maybe the power supply inside the alarm system box went bad suddenly
> http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3751/10989824356_41ff0ca903_o.gif

** The voltages on the transformer went high enough to cause a big increase
in current and fuse failure, maybe something inside the alarm box failed
too.

> Any other troubleshooting suggestions?

** Get a new tranny and a new battery and try them - the battery first.


... Phil

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:00:25 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:

> ** Get a new tranny and a new battery and try them - the battery first.

That makes a lot of sense, since the battery, in and of itself, should
power the system adequately.

I have a new transformer on order, although I belated realized there is a
"limited lifetime warranty" on the ELK-TRG-1640, as described here:
http://www.elkproducts.com/product-catalog/elk-trg2440-ac-transformer-24-vac-40-va-auto-resetting-grounding-prong-and-terminal

Anyone ever take them up on their "limited" lifetime warranty?
http://www.elkproducts.com/_literature_63744/P1216,TRG1640,TRG2440_Data_Sheet

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:04:21 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:

> ** Might seem clever to crosspost and then direct all replies to one NG -
> but it ain't.
> Cos no-body on "sci.electronics.repair" can see any replies at all.
> And that is really stupid and annoying.

I apologize. As the record shows (in alt.free.newsservers), I had a problem with
aioe.org triplicating posts, which, after a while, caused aioe to drop all posts
due to "too many errors". Pan, my news client, didn't tell me, so, all posts
were lost.

So, I didn't have access to aioe.

When I asked what to do, people said to switch to Solani. But, Solani *forces* you
to have a single followup! You can't possibly have a followup to the groups you posted
to. I asked alt.free.newsservers *why* Solani does that, and, the answer came back
they can do whatever they want (so, the point is, that it doesn't make any sense).

I can't win either way.

After a few days, Aioe let me back in (this is a recurring theme with them); so,
hopefully, this will get to both groups (and also alt.free.newsservers) because
I'll send it via aioe.

Of course, it could just go nowhere ... and I'll never know, because Pan won't warn
me until it's too late (but that's in another thread to news.software.nntp).

[Phil Allison]

"Danny D'Amico"

>Phil Allison wrote:
>
>> ** Get a new tranny and a new battery and try them - the battery first.
>
> That makes a lot of sense, since the battery, in and of itself, should
> power the system adequately.
>
> I have a new transformer on order, although I belated realized there is a
> "limited lifetime warranty" on the ELK-TRG-1640, as described here:
> http://www.elkproducts.com/product-catalog/elk-trg2440-ac-transformer-24-vac-40-va-auto-resetting-grounding-prong-and-terminal

** I see no warranty details - all "Lifetime Limited Warranty" means is
that there is a time limit on the warranty.

Also, they claim there is a PTC in series with the secondary to prevent
overload damage.

PTCs self reset once they cool down.

IME a tranny that is well made, moisture sealed and has a PTC in the output
ought to last 10 to 20 years.



.... Phil

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:42:54 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:

> ** I see no warranty details - all "Lifetime Limited Warranty" means is
> that there is a time limit on the warranty.

Me neither. I'll call them on Monday (they're not open weekends).

> Also, they claim there is a PTC in series with the secondary to prevent
> overload damage.
> PTCs self reset once they cool down.

It has had plenty of time to cool down!
I think the burnt plastic smell gives me a clue. :)

[Danny D'Amico]

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 21:19:06 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

> The link is to the newer transformers which have PTC "Positive
> Temperature Coefficient" fuses.

Ah. I see. Mine is at least ten (maybe twenty?) years older.

> The old transformer you have has a short piece of tiny wire attached
> in series to the secondary winding of the transformer

That would explain why it blew once, and then died.
I did smell burnt plastic; but the garage doors were open so it
dissipated too quickly for me to identify from where. It was only
a while later, after testing it, that I realized the power
transformer had blown.

> I believe the blue electrolytic capacitor is defective and the module
> may not work. It could have presented a short circuit to the power
> transformer which popped the fusible link.

I guess the good news is that the newer transformer will survive that,
if when I put it in, that's the case of the shorted power circuit.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 21:48:11 -0600, Hot-Text wrote:

> Alarm system transformer + power supply
> (would both go bad at once?)
> NO

I'm not sure what to make of these measurements:

1. Battery hooked to power supply is 12.87VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3675/11012106735_6462c93b69_o.gif

2. Yet, battery hooked to PWR and GND blades of power supply = 0VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3671/11012333553_83db5107c8_o.gif

3. Battery hooked to just GND blade on the power supply = 12.87VDC:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7360/11012206866_fdcb4a46a6_o.gif

4. Battery hooked to just PWR blade of power supply = OVDC:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5516/11012206746_15cf8b97f4_o.gif

This makes no sense to me; but I'm not an EE.

Does this (repeatable) information above tell us anything about
the power supply or battery?

Note: This dent in the capacitor was due to it being pressed
down against the transistor (I pushed it away):
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5491/11012334393_cd136e612d_o.gif

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 07:02:58 -0800, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> In your case, it's very easy to establish if the battery is the
> problem or not. Measure the voltage with it connected to the alarm.

The strangest thing happened when I took you up on your suggestion!

A. The battery, connected to the power supply, was 12.87 volts:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3785/11012332223_24ba3777a7_o.gif

B. I also read 12.87 volts at the very edge of the power supply,
so, the wires are good:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5488/11012105955_96364f93f1_o.gif

C. I then got 12.87 volts between the battery and the GND spade on
the power supply board:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7360/11012206866_fdcb4a46a6_o.gif

D. But, the strangest thing is there is no voltage between the
battery and the PWR spade of the power supply:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5516/11012206746_15cf8b97f4_o.gif

I'm not sure what to make of those conflicting results.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 08:20:19 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

> Have you ever worked on car charging system and battery?

Yes. 13.8 volts is "normal" for an open-circuit voltage.
The voltage is highest after charging, and then goes down, over
time, depending on the type of battery.

> If I were you I'd replace x-former and battery and start from there.

I have no qualms about replacing stuff, but, I am trying to
debug first, *what* needs to be replaced (other than the transformer,
which is on order).

Right now, I'm trying to figure out why the power supply board
has 0 volts across the PWR and GND pins, even with 13 volts at
the inputs.

[Nightcrawler®]

"Danny D'Amico" <dan...@is.invalid> wrote in message news:l6qmmh$usg$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

> On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 21:48:11 -0600, Hot-Text wrote:
>
>> Alarm system transformer + power supply
>> (would both go bad at once?)
>> NO
>
> I'm not sure what to make of these measurements:
>

<snip>

What are the voltage measurements of the pins by the
capacitor?

What connects to this connector?

What connects to J1 and J2 (GND and PWR post, respectively)?

That black object between J1 and J2 is a relay. This relay needs
to be activated by something, and I am guessing a power failure
deactivates this relay, enabling the battery back-up.

So, are J1 and J2 inputs with the connector being the output, or
vice versa?

[Nightcrawler®]

"Danny D'Amico" <dan...@is.invalid> wrote in message news:l6qoqr$46s$2...@speranza.aioe.org...

The transformer is obviously dead. Replace it immediately. This
will at least let you know if the system will work with the transformer
functional. Step two would be to figure out what is wrong with
the battery back-up. Have you checked for fuses, yet?

[The Daring Dufas]

That module attached between the battery and the panel is a battery
saver module. The panel will work without it and I believe it's shorted
out and is what blew the transformer. If you or one of your friends can
repair circuit boards, get him/her/it to take a look at it because it's
a fairly simple circuit. I would remove the module and hook the panel's
power leads directly to the battery. Hopefully, the battery charging
circuit on the panel's circuit board is not damaged. ^_^

TDD

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 12:13:57 -0500, krw wrote:

> I'd measure before replacing anything, though the battery is likely
> toast no matter what else is bad. Don't replace it until you're sure
> that's the only thing that's gone.

That's exactly how I'm (trying to) handle it.

I don't have any problem replacing anything that tests bad; but, just
throwing parts at a problem isn't what I'm trying to do.

Of course, that means I need to look closely at the circuit board, as
that's the first step of any diagnostic procedure.

Looking at the BOTTOM of the circuit board, I find something
interesting at each end of the electrolytic capacitor leads:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3677/11013129635_251c6ff9ec_o.gif

It almost seems as if the capacitor overheated, but, it it not
an open circuit:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7397/11013119175_dfa5301efd_o.gif

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 17:32:11 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

> Right now, I'm trying to figure out why the power supply board
> has 0 volts across the PWR and GND pins, even with 13 volts at
> the inputs.

I just realized, that's *not* a power supply board!
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5536/11013239006_7ef98f0bb4_o.gif

It says it's a "D135A Low Battery Disconnect", part number
79-04360401 (where the last 4 and last 1 might be another digit).

Googling, I find these datasheets:
http://resource.boschsecurity.com/documents/Data_sheet_enUS_2548187915.pdf
http://www.boschsecurity.com.br/_archivos_productos_sitios_la/documentos/intrusion/EN/d135a_description_0910_en.pdf

Which say:
"The D135A works with compatible control panels to protect the
battery from deep discharge in the event of an extended AC
power outage. Disconnects the control panel from the battery
when the battery level drops to 9.5 VDC."

I find an installation guide here, which explains that the sticky tape
is because the module is supposed to be stuck onto the top of the battery:
http://tinyurl.com/p74he4t

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:41:40 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

> The transformer is obviously dead. Replace it immediately. This
> will at least let you know if the system will work with the transformer
> functional. Step two would be to figure out what is wrong with
> the battery back-up. Have you checked for fuses, yet?

I don't see a fuse on the Radionics D2212 BLT circuit board:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2866/11014946826_4ecdea2144_o.gif

And, I don't (yet) see a fuse in the Radionics D2212B LT diagram:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2861/11014840755_8169e24a57_o.gif

And, I don't see an inline fuse in the "rats nest" below the board:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/11014945176_770ebeea29_o.gif

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 12:29:02 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

> That module attached between the battery and the panel is a battery
> saver module.

You are correct! I had thought it was a "power supply" but it's not.
A sticker says it's a "D135A low battery disconnect", which is
apparently supposed to be sticky-taped to the top of the battery.

Googling, it's a 9.5 volt cutoff (as you said, to save the battery
from a deep discharge). I'm surprised you could tell that from
where you sit, because I only just realized that myself now.

> The panel will work without it and I believe it's shorted
> out and is what blew the transformer.

You seem to be familiar with this stuff but I must ask:

What is the "it" in the sentence above? The battery?
Or the low-battery protection board?

> I would remove the module and hook the panel's power leads
> directly to the battery.

Before I do this, may I clarify the suggestion?

Should I remove the D135A low-battery protection board, and then,
connect the battery directly to the black and red power leads of
the Radionics D2212B (LT) circuit board?

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:39:11 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

>>I don't see a fuse on the Radionics D2212 BLT circuit board:
>> http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2866/11014946826_4ecdea2144_o.gif
>>
>>And, I don't (yet) see a fuse in the Radionics D2212B LT diagram:
>> http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2861/11014840755_8169e24a57_o.gif
>>
>>And, I don't see an inline fuse in the "rats nest" below the board:
>> http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/11014945176_770ebeea29_o.gif
>

>> I'm not sure what to make of these measurements:

>>1. Battery hooked to power supply is 12.87VDC:
>> http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3675/11012106735_6462c93b69_o.gif
>>2. Yet, battery hooked to PWR and GND blades of power supply = 0VDC:
>> http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3671/11012333553_83db5107c8_o.gif
>>3. Battery hooked to just GND blade on the power supply = 12.87VDC:
>> http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7360/11012206866_fdcb4a46a6_o.gif
>>4. Battery hooked to just PWR blade of power supply = OVDC:
>> http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5516/11012206746_15cf8b97f4_o.gif
>

> What are the voltage measurements of the pins by the
> capacitor?

Are you asking me to check the DC voltage across the capacitor
of the D135A low-battery disconnect circuit?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5504/11013315874_62a158a0de_o.gif

Specifically these two points, where I had previously measured the
resistance (with no power to the circuit) across that same cap?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5484/11013352723_e91013b313_o.gif

> What connects to J1 and J2 (GND and PWR post, respectively)?

J1 on the D135A board goes to gnd on the Radionics D2212B board.
J2 on the D135A board goes to pwr on the Radionics D2212B board.

> That black object between J1 and J2 is a relay. This relay needs
> to be activated by something, and I am guessing a power failure
> deactivates this relay, enabling the battery back-up.

I do not know the answer. Here's a closeup of that relay:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2894/11013237706_28045e3abe_o.gif

All I know, for sure, that's bad is that the ELK-TRG1640 transformer
has a blown secondary (open circuit) but I don't know what blew it:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/10989885984_72d64103f6_o.gif

> So, are J1 and J2 inputs with the connector being the output, or
> vice versa?

I think the D135A low-battery disconnect is supposed to be taped
to the battery, which turns off the circuit at 9.5V but otherwise
does nothing else; so that's why I think it's weird that I get
0 volts across J1 and J2 when the battery is hooked up.

To see if it was the battery, I charged the battery on a car
charger (6 amp limited) and I was surprised to see the battery
only took about 30 ma (I had to measure it since it was too low
for the car charger gauge to show any movement).

After five minutes, I took it off, and the battery measured at
13.5 volts (some of which might be surface charge):

Then, I hooked that battery to the D135A and measured across
J1 and J2 again (which seems to be the 12VDC input to the
alarm circuit board).

1. The voltage across the battery inputs was 13.31VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3780/11016175513_af16f7c34e_o.gif

2. The voltage across the PWR and GND (J2 & J1) spaces was 0V:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3786/11016128584_20e6cba24f_o.gif

3. The voltage across the battery & the GND (J1) was 13.31 VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3772/11016174693_48beeeeed8_o.gif

4. But the voltage across the battery & the PWR (J2) was 0 VDC:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5511/11015955585_26a8e37a41_o.gif

I don't understand that.

5. The voltage across the electrolytic capacitor was 0V:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5508/11016126814_909b0dc00d_o.gif

6. And, the capacitor leads appear to have heated up at one point:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3795/11016173493_914e59eb22_o.gif

So, could it be that the 16.VAC transformer opened up a secondary
when the battery protection circuit opened up a capacitor?

Seems unlikely, doesn't it? Especially just from turning off the
main breaker with the generator kicking in the day before?

[RTS]

Dud, it looks to me like you got a bad module..
the Cap is bad just to look at, and since you need the relay to close to
pass the voltage to the terminals, anything in that hold-in circuit that’s
bad will disable that..
discard the module, if you still need a low voltage disconnect feature,
try
http://www.elkproducts.com/product-catalog/elk-965-low-battery-cutoff-and-master-power-switch
the Elk 965 will disconnect the power when voltage drops below its threshold
..

rts

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message news:l6r5lv$4a2$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
First of all, did you check the battery by hooking up a 12V automotive
bulb to really see it is holding good charge at 12V? Secondly remove one
leg of diodes and check them, one may be Zener type. do the same with
capacitor. Remove any two legs off the circuit and check that
transistor. The other K1 is a relay, you can check it same way.
Then go to next step which you are trying to do now. First thing first.
If you can find a URL for schematic, it'll be lot easier to TS.

No power supply on your work bench? If so you can use it as well.
I have a lab. grade power supply with several commonly used voltage o/p.
Very handy item to have.

[The Daring Dufas]

"It" is the low battery disconnect. Connect the power leads you remove
from the D135A directly to the battery to see if your system operates.
I haven't worked exclusively in the alarm industry for many years but I
would get into alarms from time to time. Your alarm system is at least
21 years old. The date code on the small round bridge rectifier on the
circuit board looks like it was manufactured in 1992. ^_^

TDD

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 15:50:17 -0600, RTS wrote:

> Dude, it looks to me like you got a bad module..

It seems that all three test bad:
1. The transformer has an open secondary
2. The low-voltage protection module has an open cap
3. The alarm system simply beeps when I plug in 12VDC

I plugged the 13.5V battery, without the ELK TRG1640 ac charger and
without the D135A low-voltage-protection board, into the
Radionics D2212B alarm system board.

The alarm beeped continuously, without any other indication of
working, and the current I measured was 98 ma continuous:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7370/11017175664_eb4f8a7d31_o.gif

Can all that really happen simply by shutting off the 200Amp main
breaker without also turning off the automatic power generator?

[Nightcrawler®]

http://www.alarmhow.net/manuals/Radionics/D2212/D2212B%20Installation%20Manual.pdf

[The Daring Dufas]

It actually looks like someone has replaced that electrolytic before.
Oh yea, looking at your other pictures, it now looks like the board was
manufactured in 1998. ^_^

TDD

[The Daring Dufas]

On 11/23/2013 3:11 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:39:11 -0600, Nightcrawler� wrote:
>
>>> I don't see a fuse on the Radionics D2212 BLT circuit board:
>>> http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2866/11014946826_4ecdea2144_o.gif
>>>

Looking at your picture, right above where the transformer leads connect
to the terminal strip, there is an electrolytic capacitor right above a
small bridge rectifier. I can't quite tell but the capacitor could be
swollen and shorted. The 3 terminal voltage regulator is above that
capacitor attached to the aluminum plate heat sink. Those are the main
components of the AC to DC power supply and if one of them is shorted,
that could kill the power transformer. ^_^

TDD

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 16:39:07 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

> http://www.alarmhow.net/manuals/Radionics/D2212/D2212B%20Installation%20Manual.pdf

That's a very nice find, especially since three things appear to have been blown
when I turned the power off without turning off the generator:

1. The ELK TRG140 16.5V AC transformer secondary windings are now open
2. The D135A battery-protection board cap is apparently blown
3. The Radionics D2212B alarm circuit board is apparently malfunctioning

The test of the Radionics board was to hook the battery directly to
the power and ground leads. That drew 98ma and the alarm system merely
beeped an incessant single beeeeeeeeeeeeeeep for the entire time that
I left the battery connected.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7370/11017175664_eb4f8a7d31_o.gif

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 16:41:36 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

> It actually looks like someone has replaced that electrolytic before.
> Oh yea, looking at your other pictures, it now looks like the board was
> manufactured in 1998. ^_^

There were unused leads for two batteries, so, I suspect there were
two batteries in series initially. The battery in there now doesn't
look all that old. The equipment was made in the 90s as you surmised.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 16:23:09 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

> "It" is the low battery disconnect. Connect the power leads you remove
> from the D135A directly to the battery to see if your system operates.

That is the most direct test I could have run, so, following your advice,
I took the power and ground leads coming out of the alarm system board
and plugged them directly into the battery, which was at 13.5 volts.

The current draw was 98 ma.

But the only thing that happened was the alarm system made a single
beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep that lasted the entire
time that the battery was connected.

I tried this, multiple times, for no longer than the time it took to
snap this picture though, as I didn't want to ruin anything further.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7370/11017175664_eb4f8a7d31_o.gif

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 17:10:37 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

> Looking at your picture, right above where the transformer leads connect
> to the terminal strip, there is an electrolytic capacitor right above a
> small bridge rectifier. I can't quite tell but the capacitor could be
> swollen and shorted. The 3 terminal voltage regulator is above that
> capacitor attached to the aluminum plate heat sink. Those are the main
> components of the AC to DC power supply and if one of them is shorted,
> that could kill the power transformer. ^_^

I'm surprised you knew *where* the transformer leads entered the board,
because I didn't say, so, but I see what you're talking about.

Also, I'm surprised you knew that was a bridge rectifier, because, well,
because I didn't - but - looking at it from the side, I can see four
uninsulated legs, which indicate it has four leads, one of which is
marked "+".

Here is the same picture, but, with a few things marked that I know of
(including the electrolytic capacitor I think you're talking about):
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5486/11018768016_8962578375_o.png

I looked and touched and that cap seems OK visually; but, of course,
it's probably 20 years old...

For the first time, I'm wondering if it's not just a new transformer,
but, that I probably need to replace the entire board...

[doug]

>
> For the first time, I'm wondering if it's not just a new transformer,
> but, that I probably need to replace the entire board...
>

You could try www.tech-man.com for a used replacement board, bearing in mind
that any used replacement board is likely to be close to the same age as
yours.

I would tend to upgrade to a current system.

Doug

[Michael A. Terrell]

It's more likely that there were problems, and the situation wouldn't
let it start working again.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 17:11:27 -0800, doug wrote:

> I would tend to upgrade to a current system.

Any recommendations, given my goal would be to use all the existing
equipment except the board itself and the power supply?

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sun, 24 Nov 2013 05:59:05 -0800, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

>> http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7370/11017175664_eb4f8a7d31_o.gif
>
> I think you're screwed. But I like the meter. I have the same one,
> going on 30 years now.

Yeah. I've blown the 'bar' inside for the 10A fuse (my fault) and,
I've had to replace the disc-shaped battery once (or twice?) but
mine has to be from the early or mid 80s and it's still going
strong.

It's strange that all three things are bad:
1. The power transformer secondary blew open
2. The battery-tender capacitor overheated
3. The main circuit board isn't working

I wonder what my options are ...

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 05:34:00 -0800, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> If you can verify that the board has proper power on it from
> a battery and it's still not working, I'd say it's time to buy
> a new panel. You can get them for $150 or so.

That's probably what I'm going to have to do.

Meanwhile, ELK called me back and explained the "limited" part
of the "lifetime warranty" on the AC transformer. The service
technician said mine has a PTC fuse in the secondary.

He said ELK will replace it for free as long as it was used
within the specifications of the device, e.g., in an approved
alarm system (which it was).

They told me I could send it to them, or, I could contact these
local "trade distributors" to see if they would work with a
homeowner:
1. Home Tech Solution 408-257-4406
2. Custom Electronics Supply 408-452-8300
3. http://smarthome.com 800-762-7846

So, at the very least, I'll get the transformer replaced,
under warranty, by one of those four. Also, I'll ask all of
them how much they sell the board I need.

BTW, must I get the exact same board?
Or can *any* alarm system board suffice?

[doug]

"Danny D'Amico" <dan...@is.invalid> wrote in message

news:l6vtsq$lnu$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

> On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 05:34:00 -0800, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
>
> BTW, must I get the exact same board?
> Or can *any* alarm system board suffice?
>

You will need keypads to match the replacement board, the sensors should be
OK although you may have to change the EOL resistors (if they are used).

If you have any 2 wire smoke detectors you may have to check compatibility
with the new panel.

Doug

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 08:41:54 -0800, doug wrote:

> You will need keypads to match the replacement board, the sensors should be
> OK although you may have to change the EOL resistors (if they are used).
>
> If you have any 2 wire smoke detectors you may have to check compatibility
> with the new panel.

I do have smoke alarms but don't know how they're wired.

Likewise, I have motion detectors and mostly hard-wired door/window
switches, but some are wireless (the repair ones mostly).

I called a few outfits today looking for the D2212B(LT) control board:
http://www.alarmhow.net/manuals/Radionics/D2212/

Apparently Bosch (who bought Radionics) won't sell to a consumer, so I'll
need to get the D2212B board from either a distributor or dealer.

They retail about $100 to $125 but they're almost all out of stock on
the web pages that I've found them listed.

If I buy a new board that is not the D2212B, am I to conclude I *must*
go with Bosch/Radionics since I do have wireless devices?

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 10:03:16 -0800, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

>
> I would not replace just the board, unless you can find
> the exact replacement at a good price. I would replace the
> alarm panel.

Replacing the alarm panel is fine by me, but, I spoke to someone
at Bosch who said that the "frequencies are different" for each
manufacturer.

Is that true?

Seems to me that an alarm system as a simple job. If the switch
is open, ring the alarm.

Why wouldn't the wired and wireless alarm devices on the doors
and windows be compatible with *any* manufacturer?

Is it true that only a Bosch/Radionics panel will work with
Bosch/Radionics controllers and Bosch/Radionics switches
and motion and smoke detectors?

[Oren]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:28:38 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
<dan...@is.invalid> wrote:

>Why wouldn't the wired and wireless alarm devices on the doors
>and windows be compatible with *any* manufacturer?

I'm not an accountant, but I suspect it has something to do with the
dollar bill? $

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 12:46:54 -0800, Oren wrote:

> I'm not an accountant, but I suspect it has something to do with
> the dollar bill? $

You're not kidding!

I called Bosch/Radionics at 800-538-5807 who told me they have plenty
of D2212B(LT) boards in stock (the LT, they told me, simply means it
comes without the external transformer in the kit).

But they can't sell them to me. They told me to go to Anixer or ADI.

So, I call Anixer at 925-469-8500, who says they can't sell the board
to me, due to their legal agreements. I have to get it from a contractor
as a "pass-through" (whatever that means).

So, this seems to be the path of the board:
Bosch/Radionics sells it to Anixer who sells it to the pass-through
contractor who sells it to me.

I wonder what the markup is each time?

Anyway, now I am looking for a "pass though" contractor, whatever that
means. I mean, I realize it's an "installer"; but, I don't want an
installer. I want a pass-through guy to just send me the board.

What do I google for?
(The Anixer guys couldn't tell me.)

Now for the ADI guys ... 800.233.6261 ... ... they won't sell it to
me either. I need a contractor's license. Sheesh.

It's getting to be harder to get a stinkin' alarm system replacement
board than it was to get garage door torsion springs! :)

Does anyone know how I can find a "pass through" contractor?

[Tony Hwang]

Hmmm,
If the control board does not solve the problem, then what?

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
You are thinking analog, now most any thing is digital. Even reelays
are solid state devies, no electro mechanical things.

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
Run an ad on Kijiji saying you are looking for an alarm tech who could
help your situation. If some one respond, deal is no fix, no pay.
Lot of legit guys do a side job when he is off regular work.
I am lucky if I had a situation like that, just phone my old buddies
still on the job. They will send some one to help me out or give me some
thing I need. I retired from Honeywell. They have building protection
division.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:54:56 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

> If the control board does not solve the problem, then what?

Normally I don't throw parts at a problem.

But,
1. The transformer is clearly bad (open secondary).
So I have one on order and another coming in via warranty repair.
But, this is not mandatory for operation anyway.

2. The battery protection board clearly has a capacitor that has
melted leads on the underside. What I plan on doing there is
replacing the capacitor; but this is not an important board
for operation either.

3. When I put 12VDC to the main circuit board, it beeps a long
beep, and nothing else happens.

So, what does that tell me?

It *could* be that the board simply needs to be "reset", so, I'll
read all the manuals I found here:
http://www.alarmhow.net/manuals/Radionics/D2212/

Or, it could be that the battery is bad. So, I'll charge the battery
and test it under load, to see if that's the problem (but I don't
think it is simply because the board is only drawing 100ma at 12VDC).

Or, it could be that the D2212B circuit board is bad. If that's the
case, I'll try to troubleshoot it by testing where the power goes
when I plug in the battery.

But, the board should only cost about $100 so it's not all that bad
to just replace it. Bosch says they have plenty in stock, so, all I
have to do is find someone who will sell them to me as a pass through:

Bosch sells the board to ADI or to Anixer, who then sells it to a

pass-through contractor who sells it to me.

If the board doesn't work, then I'd be surprised; but it would then
be time to replace the entire shebang.

[Oren]

Some things are proprietary; only sold to those in the specific trade.

I went through this at work one time.

Find your local <http://www.grainger.com> store.

Ask if they have what you need or if they can order it.

Tell them you are from the "government". Pay in cash using; say,
Forestry Service or some such.

They will sell under that account with cash money.

Example: I stated my agency, which did not have an account, but the
guy found another agency and sold it to me using that account for a
cash purchase.

Worth a try...

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:57:04 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

> You are thinking analog, now most any thing is digital. Even reelays
> are solid state devies, no electro mechanical things.

I'm ok with simply replacing the Bosch/Radionics D2212BLT board
(where the LT simply means the board kit came without the transformer).

Bosch has plenty in stock, but they won't sell them to me.
ADI & Anixer will only sell them to a contractor.

I just had a long conversation with the guys at http://obsoleteradionics.com
who will try to get the board for me (they say it's the most common
board out there).

Jeeesuz. Bosch has this market locked up tight!

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 22:04:11 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

> But, the board should only cost about $100 so it's not all that bad
> to just replace it. Bosch says they have plenty in stock, so, all I
> have to do is find someone who will sell them to me as a pass through:

I can get the board for $104 but it's out of stock.
The retail is $169, I'm told.
So, now, all I need to do is find the board in that price range
from a "pass through" guy who has a Bosch agreement.

You'd think this would be the easy part! :)

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:13:30 -0800, Oren wrote:

> Tell them you are from the "government".

Wow. Gotta try that trick!

[Bob La Londe]

Yes. Voltage spike, lightning strike, leg dropped across from power
company, or some moron accidentally touching the neutral in the breaker box
to the other leg of the incoming power. They can cause both to fail. All
are sudden over voltage conditions.


---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

[Oren]

I was being honest. To save time I went downtown and bought the
"proprietary" part (restricted to the trade).

The electrician could have just as well done the same thing. The part
came from my office budget, so I went because I needed the electrician
on the job - nothing from his budget.

Took cash issued from the business office cashier :)

[Oren]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:54:56 -0700, Tony Hwang <drag...@shaw.ca>
wrote:

>If the control board does not solve the problem, then what?

Um, spend more money?

[tm]

"Danny D'Amico" <dan...@is.invalid> wrote in message
news:l70glr$9s9$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

Where are you located?

Maybe someone on this list with electronic skills can take a look at it and
maybe repair the board(s).

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 18:04:55 -0500, tm wrote:

> Where are you located?
>
> Maybe someone on this list with electronic skills can take a look at it and
> maybe repair the board(s).

Silicon Valley, of all places. :)

I find it hard to believe THREE things would go bad at once.

I can run rudimentary tests on the D2212B board, but, what
I need to do is read all the PDFs I found to see if any
offer advice as to whether there is a RESET.

There's a reset button on the wall controllers,
but, they don't power up with the battery in place
so, *something* is wrong.

If it's a simple board reset, that's what I'll look for first.

[Tony Hwang]

Hmmm,
Sorry to say this, I think you don't have basic logic TS skill and
expertise/experience. Can you use Huntron tester or simple Boolean
algebra for an example? One way of logical TS is process of elimination.
You did not eliminate anything yet. Ever heard of shot gun method?
When you are in a hurry, you do it based on your experience.
Or you'll never pin point what is wrong. I lived all my life from
Vacuum tube era in electronics as a hobby and career.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:54:56 -0700, Tony Hwang <drag...@shaw.ca>
wrote:

Um, call someone who knows what they're doing?

[k...@attt.bizz]

Nice.

[k...@attt.bizz]

Tell them you're from the IRS. They'll give it to you. ;-)

[Oren]

I'll never forget the moment. Before the professor even said a word,
he used chalk on the blackboard to make a dollar sign ($).

"Everything centers around this!", he said.

His Cuban accent was so difficult to understand, I ask my wife to
attend class with me one night. Even she could not understand what he
was saying.

...but most everything does center around the dollar

--
Q: Why do men get their great ideas in bed?
A: Because their plugged into a genius!

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 19:13:57 -0500, krw wrote:

> Um, call someone who knows what they're doing?

Is that how Alt.Home.Repair works?
Is that how Alt.Security.Alarms works?
Is that how Sci.Electronics.Repair works?

Call someone who knows what they're doing?
That's why I'm asking here.

You guys are supposed to know what you're doing!

:)

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 16:46:54 -0800, Oren wrote:

> ...but most everything does center around the dollar

After a half dozen phone calls today, I see that Bosch has their distributors
and dealers locked up.

They won't even quote a price, even though they have plenty of these
boards in stock (it's the most common board, according to one guy).

The trick, just as it was with garage door torsion springs, is to find
the "pass through" supplier, like Dan Musick of DDM fame.

Doesn't anyone on the alarm newsgroup know a pass-through supplier?

[Oren]

Did you call or check with Grainger, locally, as I mildly suggested?

There is more than one way to "skin a cat" :)

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:51:36 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
<da...@is.invalid> wrote:

>On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 19:13:57 -0500, krw wrote:
>
>> Um, call someone who knows what they're doing?
>
>Is that how Alt.Home.Repair works?
>Is that how Alt.Security.Alarms works?
>Is that how Sci.Electronics.Repair works?

Um, the point is that the alarm system doesn't work.

>Call someone who knows what they're doing?
>That's why I'm asking here.

You can't be serious. Debugging electronics by long distance is
difficult, at best, and impossible if the person at the other end is
completely helpless.

>You guys are supposed to know what you're doing!

You have a bigger problem than even I suspected.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:53:47 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
<da...@is.invalid> wrote:

>On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 16:46:54 -0800, Oren wrote:
>
>> ...but most everything does center around the dollar
>
>After a half dozen phone calls today, I see that Bosch has their distributors
>and dealers locked up.

I wouldn't expect any differently. They rely on each other for the
food on their tables.

>They won't even quote a price, even though they have plenty of these
>boards in stock (it's the most common board, according to one guy).

Why bother quoting it if they can't sell it to you. Have you tried
showing up at quitting time with ten or twenty Franklins?

>The trick, just as it was with garage door torsion springs, is to find
>the "pass through" supplier, like Dan Musick of DDM fame.

>Doesn't anyone on the alarm newsgroup know a pass-through supplier?

How about your local alarm company?

[tm]

"Danny D'Amico" <dan...@is.invalid> wrote in message
news:l6r5lv$4a2$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:39:11 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:
>
>>>I don't see a fuse on the Radionics D2212 BLT circuit board:
>>> http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2866/11014946826_4ecdea2144_o.gif
>>>
>>>And, I don't (yet) see a fuse in the Radionics D2212B LT diagram:
>>> http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2861/11014840755_8169e24a57_o.gif
>>>
>>>And, I don't see an inline fuse in the "rats nest" below the board:
>>> http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/11014945176_770ebeea29_o.gif
>>
>>> I'm not sure what to make of these measurements:
>>>1. Battery hooked to power supply is 12.87VDC:
>>> http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3675/11012106735_6462c93b69_o.gif
>>>2. Yet, battery hooked to PWR and GND blades of power supply = 0VDC:
>>> http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3671/11012333553_83db5107c8_o.gif
>>>3. Battery hooked to just GND blade on the power supply = 12.87VDC:
>>> http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7360/11012206866_fdcb4a46a6_o.gif
>>>4. Battery hooked to just PWR blade of power supply = OVDC:
>>> http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5516/11012206746_15cf8b97f4_o.gif
>>
>> What are the voltage measurements of the pins by the
>> capacitor?
>
> Are you asking me to check the DC voltage across the capacitor
> of the D135A low-battery disconnect circuit?
> http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5504/11013315874_62a158a0de_o.gif
>
> Specifically these two points, where I had previously measured the
> resistance (with no power to the circuit) across that same cap?
> http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5484/11013352723_e91013b313_o.gif
>
>> What connects to J1 and J2 (GND and PWR post, respectively)?
> J1 on the D135A board goes to gnd on the Radionics D2212B board.
> J2 on the D135A board goes to pwr on the Radionics D2212B board.
>
>> That black object between J1 and J2 is a relay. This relay needs
>> to be activated by something, and I am guessing a power failure
>> deactivates this relay, enabling the battery back-up.
>
> I do not know the answer. Here's a closeup of that relay:
> http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2894/11013237706_28045e3abe_o.gif
>
> All I know, for sure, that's bad is that the ELK-TRG1640 transformer
> has a blown secondary (open circuit) but I don't know what blew it:
> http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/10989885984_72d64103f6_o.gif
>
>> So, are J1 and J2 inputs with the connector being the output, or
>> vice versa?
>
> I think the D135A low-battery disconnect is supposed to be taped
> to the battery, which turns off the circuit at 9.5V but otherwise
> does nothing else; so that's why I think it's weird that I get
> 0 volts across J1 and J2 when the battery is hooked up.
>
> To see if it was the battery, I charged the battery on a car
> charger (6 amp limited) and I was surprised to see the battery
> only took about 30 ma (I had to measure it since it was too low
> for the car charger gauge to show any movement).
>
> After five minutes, I took it off, and the battery measured at
> 13.5 volts (some of which might be surface charge):
>
> Then, I hooked that battery to the D135A and measured across
> J1 and J2 again (which seems to be the 12VDC input to the
> alarm circuit board).
>
> 1. The voltage across the battery inputs was 13.31VDC:
> http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3780/11016175513_af16f7c34e_o.gif
>
> 2. The voltage across the PWR and GND (J2 & J1) spaces was 0V:
> http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3786/11016128584_20e6cba24f_o.gif
>
> 3. The voltage across the battery & the GND (J1) was 13.31 VDC:
> http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3772/11016174693_48beeeeed8_o.gif
>
> 4. But the voltage across the battery & the PWR (J2) was 0 VDC:
> http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5511/11015955585_26a8e37a41_o.gif
>
> I don't understand that.
>
> 5. The voltage across the electrolytic capacitor was 0V:
> http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5508/11016126814_909b0dc00d_o.gif
>
> 6. And, the capacitor leads appear to have heated up at one point:
> http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3795/11016173493_914e59eb22_o.gif
>
> So, could it be that the 16.VAC transformer opened up a secondary
> when the battery protection circuit opened up a capacitor?
>
> Seems unlikely, doesn't it? Especially just from turning off the
> main breaker with the generator kicking in the day before?
>
>
>

It is a real simple circuit. There is an NPN transistor (Q1) that drives the
relay. The black diode is across the relay coil to protect the transistor.
The other diode is a zener in series with the 2.4 k resistor to the base of
the transistor. When the battery voltage is above 9.x volts, the zener will
conduct and turn on the transistor that will in turn operate the relay. The
relay will make the connection from the red wire to the battery (W1) to the
J2 terminal marked power. It will supply voltage to the alarm panel until
the battery voltage drops below the zener diode conduction point.

Charge your battery for a while and see if it will light a simple tail light
bulb. Measure the battery with the bulb connected and lit.


tm

[tm]

"Danny D'Amico" <dan...@is.invalid> wrote in message

news:l6rgbo$sbe$2...@speranza.aioe.org...
> On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 16:41:36 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:
>
>> It actually looks like someone has replaced that electrolytic before.
>> Oh yea, looking at your other pictures, it now looks like the board was
>> manufactured in 1998. ^_^
>
> There were unused leads for two batteries, so, I suspect there were
> two batteries in series initially. The battery in there now doesn't
> look all that old. The equipment was made in the 90s as you surmised.
>

You should peel off the double sided tape on the LV Disconnect board and see
if any track has been damaged.

tm

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:10:17 -0500, krw wrote:

> You can't be serious. Debugging electronics by long distance is
> difficult, at best, and impossible if the person at the other end is
> completely helpless.

My main question is *where* can I find a "pass through" alarm servicing
company that will sell me just the board for the $105 it's worth.

This guy can't find the boards (I talked to him personally):
http://obsoleteradionics.com/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=816

Nobody will sell them to him.
Yet, Bosch told me that they have plenty in stock.

So, it's only a question of finding the right "pass through" guy.

I'm hoping at least one person on this thread knows that answer
since I don't.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 17:09:26 -0800, Oren wrote:

> Did you call or check with Grainger, locally

When I saw that suggestion, I ran a search at Grainger for D2212B:
http://www.grainger.com/search?searchQuery=d2212b

But, nothing came up.

Then I searched alarm systems, and only the sensors came up.
I didn't call them though.

I'll call 'em tomorrow, because, well, because huckleberries are
found where they are, and not where I might think they are.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:13:04 -0500, krw wrote:

> Why bother quoting it if they can't sell it to you.

My logic in asking would be the same as my friend asking
me how much my cellphone cost. I could still quote the
price even if I had no intention of selling it to him.

They all told me exactly the same thing. If they told
me the price, they would be breaking their legal agreement
with the manufacturer.

So, one thing I've learned here is that Bosch sure knows
how to lock up a market. I'm pretty sure I will have a
source by tomorrow though, as I have a few leads pending
from my phone calls.

[Oren]

Right. If they are not there, Grainger can look for them, order them -
just like collecting huckleberries in other places.

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
I spent couple mins. just now perusing eBay with a key word Radionics
alarm control board. There were many listed. I did not went through them
all.

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
What if the new board blows up when replaced? Are planing to protect it
some how from that occuring? BTW, looking at arrow marking on diode
can yu tell which direction current electron or current flows?
Can you tell which lead is cathode or anode?

[technomaNge]

On 11/25/2013 06:53 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:

> Doesn't anyone on the alarm newsgroup know a pass-through supplier?
>

You shoulda got here a coupla years ago, Robert Bass would sell
anything to anybody.



technomaNge
--
If I remember correctly.

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
You should. That Omron relay contats can be open or closed.
Is it NO or NC relay? Is the coil good? Have you metered them out?
What is the findings? Did you looked up the specs. of that very common
relay?

[Tony Hwang]

[Nightcrawler®]

"Danny D'Amico" <dan...@is.invalid> wrote in message news:l70vg2$lgf$6...@speranza.aioe.org...

Ditch the old and get the new. Many available:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/kg3yajf

(Hey, I finally remembered to copy the proper link. I know, what a moron...)

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:02:38 -0500, tm wrote:

> You should peel off the double sided tape on the LV Disconnect board and see
> if any track has been damaged.

Thanks for that advice. The sticky tape was covering the traces:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7345/11061234756_3a7bb08f86_o.gif

So, following your advice, I peeled it mostly off, and looked with a
magnifying glass as you had suggested:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5474/11061138385_441b250d61_o.gif

The 1,000uF 35V capacitor leads are burnt a bit, but, it could have been a
replacement cap for all I know, as the cap is not shorted nor is it an open
(it's about 350 ohms steady).
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7450/11061137965_035e7abf80_o.gif

However, the fact is that this sequence shows *something* is wrong with
that D135A battery-protection board:

1. The battery is 13.31V
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3780/11016175513_af16f7c34e_o.gif

2. Connecting this way is 13.31V:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3772/11016174693_48beeeeed8_o.gif

3. But, connecting this way is 0V:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3786/11016128584_20e6cba24f_o.gif

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:44:07 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

> Ditch the old and get the new. Many available:

Thanks. If it comes to that, I'll start fresh.
I have 24 zones to deal with though ...
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3756/11061237796_150cc3544f_o.gif

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:07:16 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

> What if the new board blows up when replaced?

That's why I only want to spend the $104 to replace it.
It *does* have overload circuit protection besides.

> Are you planning to protect it some how from that occurring?

I've done plenty of smoke tests in my life.
This will be one of them.

> BTW, looking at arrow marking on diode
> can yu tell which direction current electron or current flows?

> Can you tell which lead is the cathode or anode?

Heh heh ... here is a board I built many years ago to test
impedence (j omega stuff). I wired a diode to house current!
You'll notice the diodes. Particularly, you'll notice that the
nichrome wire resistor has the same impedance as the the capacitor.
(I couldn't find an inductor of a large enough size.)
FRONT: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5491/11061412564_d241b67f1e_o.gif
BACK: http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3800/11061387306_4b928f65c1_o.gif

Also notice this circuit, where I used 555 timers (I think that's what
I used), way back in the 80's, to measure capacitance and resistance
simply by counting the flash rate ...
FRONT: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7362/11061411704_cf3e84efa3_o.gif
BACK: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2893/11061410864_5dfa50a070_o.gif

I did those circuits in the early 80's but, of course I know
about the shape of the diode curve and which is the anode and
which is the cathode.
http://sub.allaboutcircuits.com/images/03256.png

Everyone knows this basic stuff... even we accountants.

[doug]

"Danny D'Amico" <da...@is.invalid> wrote in message
news:l717fs$h5p$2...@news.albasani.net...

Before you start pratting around checking diodes, capacitors and the like
you should disconnect all the external wiring to the circuit board and power
the board up on its own to verify that the field wiring or expansion modules
are not the cause of the problem

Doug

[Nightcrawler®]

"Danny D'Amico" <da...@is.invalid> wrote in message news:l717ch$h5p$1...@news.albasani.net...

> On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:02:38 -0500, tm wrote:
>
>> You should peel off the double sided tape on the LV Disconnect board and see
>> if any track has been damaged.

>

> The 1,000uF 35V capacitor leads are burnt a bit, but, it could have been a
> replacement cap for all I know, as the cap is not shorted nor is it an open
> (it's about 350 ohms steady).

I hope that you realize that you are not getting a reading off of the capacitor.
Most likely that is the resistance of the other components on the board.

[Nightcrawler®]

"Danny D'Amico" <da...@is.invalid> wrote in message news:l717fs$h5p$2...@news.albasani.net...

I am certain you may find something that works, and is probably
better than the ancient thing that you are playing with.

[tm]

"Danny D'Amico" <da...@is.invalid> wrote in message

news:l717ch$h5p$1...@news.albasani.net...

Use the meter test lead (red) to touch the red battery lead to the output
terminal briefly. You should hear the relay pull in. Then the power terminal
should be at 12 volts. This board depends on AC power being applied to the
alarm unit and some battery charging current needs to be available to arm
the battery protection board.

tm

[Nightcrawler®]

"doug" <vss...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:l718vf$6a2$1...@dont-email.me...

>
> "Danny D'Amico" <da...@is.invalid> wrote in message news:l717fs$h5p$2...@news.albasani.net...

>> On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:44:07 -0600, Nightcrawler� wrote:
>>
>>> Ditch the old and get the new. Many available:
>>
>> Thanks. If it comes to that, I'll start fresh.
>> I have 24 zones to deal with though ...
>> http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3756/11061237796_150cc3544f_o.gif
>>
>
> Before you start pratting around checking diodes, capacitors and the like you should disconnect all the external wiring to the
> circuit board and power the board up on its own to verify that the field wiring or expansion modules are not the cause of the
> problem
>
> Doug
>

Great idea, Doug. After he removes the old system, and installs the new one, his
pet project on the side will be getting the old system working. :-)

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
You checked the state of that Omron relay? Is it it NC or NO relay. Is
the contacts closed now or open, is the coil OK? Diode, and Zener...
If you are going after ICs, Huntron tracker comes handy.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 22:46:30 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

> I hope that you realize that you are not getting a reading
> off of the capacitor. Most likely that is the resistance of the
> other components on the board.

I used to use a capacitance meter (I forget what we called them
way back in the 80s in one of my lab classes), so, I'm familiar
with the fact that it's hard to measure capacitance.

However, I did think (errantly perhaps) that the capacitor
would show as a short or as an open if it were "blown".

Since it showed with resistance, I wasn't sure, what I was
reading. I *did* expect the voltage to climb slowly, since
the meter would have been supplying charge to the capacitor's
plates; so, the fact that the resistance was steady should
have been a good datapoint.

What I will likely do is take a trip to RadioShack and
buy a 1,000 uF 35V electrolytic of a similar size and
see if I can wire it back up.

I wanted to first draw the circuit so that I could figure
out how to test it though.

So, thanks for pointing out the faux pas in my measurement.
I appreciate the correction.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 23:53:35 -0500, tm wrote:

> This board depends on AC power being applied to the
> alarm unit

Oh! That would make a huge difference since the AC transformer
is out of commission at the moment (waiting for the replacement
to arrive).

Thanks for that helpful advice!

Maybe I should only test it with the AC transformer in place?

[tm]

"Danny D'Amico" <da...@is.invalid> wrote in message

news:l71def$h5p$9...@news.albasani.net...

Just bump it with the 12 volts from the battery. That will pull in the relay
and latch the output. When the voltage falls below the 9 volt limit, the
relay will drop out and disconnect the battery completely.

Just for the fun of it when you go the RS, you might pick up an in line fuse
(3 amp or so) and put it in the red battery lead. that will keep the fire
from starting. :) Get yourself a supply of fuses just in case. I don't see
any fuses on the boards at all.

When you get this working, next thing to do is disconnect all the other
panels from the main unit. Tag all the wires so you know where they go. That
way, you can narrow down any power issues to just the main board.

[tm]

"Danny D'Amico" <dan...@is.invalid> wrote in message

news:l6r0u4$od1$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:41:40 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:
>
>> The transformer is obviously dead. Replace it immediately. This
>> will at least let you know if the system will work with the transformer
>> functional. Step two would be to figure out what is wrong with
>> the battery back-up. Have you checked for fuses, yet?

>
> I don't see a fuse on the Radionics D2212 BLT circuit board:
> http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2866/11014946826_4ecdea2144_o.gif
>
> And, I don't (yet) see a fuse in the Radionics D2212B LT diagram:
> http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2861/11014840755_8169e24a57_o.gif
>
> And, I don't see an inline fuse in the "rats nest" below the board:
> http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/11014945176_770ebeea29_o.gif
>

The bottom three terminals with the Green, Red, and red and black wires are
the power to your external panels. Normally, the green is a data line, the
black should be a negative 12 volt line and the red should be +12 volts. If
someone mixed up that wiring, it could present a short circuit to the power
supply and battery. You might want to go through all the mess and clean it
up. A fault there could also explain the transformer failure.

[The Daring Dufas]

On 11/25/2013 6:51 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 19:13:57 -0500, krw wrote:
>
>> Um, call someone who knows what they're doing?
>
> Is that how Alt.Home.Repair works?
> Is that how Alt.Security.Alarms works?
> Is that how Sci.Electronics.Repair works?
>
> Call someone who knows what they're doing?
> That's why I'm asking here.
>
> You guys are supposed to know what you're doing!
>
> :)
>

Easy pal, it's hard to diagnose a problem with even simple electronic
systems without hands on it and doing things to test it that actually
come out of your subconscious. I mean things you've done for so many
years, that you do them without thinking. I'll play a hunch on gear
that's broken because I've seen so many failures of the same type or
similar equipment for many years. I often find problems using just my
eyes and my nose. I use a small flashlight or my lighted magnifying
glass to look to look for cracks or loose components on a circuit board.
I often do a wiggle test on vertically mounted components like the
filter capacitors to check for broken solder joints on a circuit board
then I often twist the board when it's powered up to check it for bad or
intermittent connections. It's often a big mistake to assume another
fellow has done tests that I would do without thinking about it. ^_^

TDD

[Michael A. Terrell]

Danny D'Amico wrote:
>
> Everyone knows this basic stuff... even we accountants.

There is a hell of a lot that you don't know. None of these give you
accurate information about a capacitor.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 11/25/2013 7:51 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 19:13:57 -0500, krw wrote:
>
>> Um, call someone who knows what they're doing?
>
> Is that how Alt.Home.Repair works?
> Is that how Alt.Security.Alarms works?
> Is that how Sci.Electronics.Repair works?
>
> Call someone who knows what they're doing?
> That's why I'm asking here.
>
> You guys are supposed to know what you're doing!
>
> :)
>

A good tech on the scene can take meter readings, and
observe things that us key board professionals won't
see.

--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 07:29:55 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

> A good tech on the scene can take meter readings, and
> observe things that us key board professionals won't

I love the term "key board professionals"!

:)

[Danny D'Amico]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:52:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

> it's hard to diagnose a problem with even simple electronic
> systems without hands on it and doing things to test it that actually
> come out of your subconscious.

I agree.
I hoping, for example, that someone knows a good way to "reset"
the alarm system board, which might just be the problem.

> I often find problems using just my eyes and my nose.

Agreed. I see the burnt leads to the cap with my eyes; and I smelled
the burnt transformer with my nose.

> I use a small flashlight or my lighted magnifying glass to look to
> look for cracks or loose components on a circuit board.

I agree; the best initial diagnostic is a good set of eyes going over
every inch of the board!

[The Daring Dufas]

I'm visually impaired, which means I'm very nearsighted so I use a
penlight now tiny led flashlights to illuminate the circuit board which
I must hold very close to my face after removing my eyeglasses in order
to see what I'm doing. Some folks think it's funny to see me hold a
piece of gear right up in my face. ^_^

TDD

[Stormin Mormon]

On 11/26/2013 8:54 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
>
> I'm visually impaired, which means I'm very nearsighted so I use a
> penlight now tiny led flashlights to illuminate the circuit board which
> I must hold very close to my face after removing my eyeglasses in order
> to see what I'm doing. Some folks think it's funny to see me hold a
> piece of gear right up in my face. ^_^
>
> TDD

I'm also nearsighted. Zenni Optical has been kind
enough to provide me inexpensive eye glasses. I've
got daily wear glasses. With some creative tweaks
of the Rx, I've also gotten reading glasses which
are nice for reading, or for working on the
soldering, grinder, etc. Good to have some
plastic in front of my eyes.

[Oren]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 02:46:42 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
>have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

AMEN!

[Oren]

Sometimes things are right in front of your face but you can't see it.
The committee in my head gets in the dang way :)

[Tony Hwang]

Oren wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 13:18:19 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
> <da...@is.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:52:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:
>>
>>> it's hard to diagnose a problem with even simple electronic
>>> systems without hands on it and doing things to test it that actually
>>> come out of your subconscious.
>>
>> I agree.
>> I hoping, for example, that someone knows a good way to "reset"

Crying out loud!!! Find a reset or master clear pin on the micro
processor chip and jumper it to ground for few seconds... reset done.
Is it so difficult for you? You are just mouth, where is your brain and
hands? Where is the pin number? Look up the chip data sheet...

[tm]

"Tony Hwang" <drag...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:m16lu.14825$uW4....@fx30.iad...

> Oren wrote:
>> On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 13:18:19 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
>> <da...@is.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:52:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:
>>>
>>>> it's hard to diagnose a problem with even simple electronic
>>>> systems without hands on it and doing things to test it that actually
>>>> come out of your subconscious.
>>>
>>> I agree.
>>> I hoping, for example, that someone knows a good way to "reset"
>
> Crying out loud!!! Find a reset or master clear pin on the micro processor
> chip and jumper it to ground for few seconds... reset done.
> Is it so difficult for you? You are just mouth, where is your brain and
> hands? Where is the pin number? Look up the chip data sheet...
>
>

It really isn't necessary to be an asshole here. The OP has done a good job
considering his lack of electronics knowledge and very limited test
equipment. And no schematics! The "chip" has all the markings sanded off. So
tell us all, what it the part number of the processor?

tm

[Tony Hwang]

Hmmm.
He is not even following up on quite a few good suggestions presented
here, I lost interest trying to help. I am not a baby sitter, I am not a
spoon feeder, all I can is giving pointers, suggestions and tips.

If he really want to tackle the problem, the board has to be removed to
work bench and go through it step by step. Wish him all the luck.

[k...@attt.bizz]

Don't rely on eyeglasses as safety devices. I just had a pair break.
About 25% of a lens broke off, leaving a nice sharp point and two
sharp edges on both pieces. Fortunately the glasses went the other
way and I didn't get cut. The optometrist said "that can't happen",
but it did. They replaced them without an issue, though.