Soda Maker: How long does it take carbon dioxide to diffuse into 4C cold water at 30psi?

[Danny D.]

Anyone know if saturation by carbon dioxide has a time constant?
http://i.imgur.com/MSm72Tp.jpg

Swirling seems to work with these 2L bottles, where I mix 4 degrees C (or
about) water under 30 psi CO2 pressure (or about) for about 10 minutes per
bottle (give or take) because I assume "diffusion" is slow; but is
diffusion slow, or is it (nearly) instantaneous?
http://i.imgur.com/gUJnLk3.jpg

Anyone have experience with how long it should take for carbon dioxide to
diffuse into the surface layer of water, and then to diffuse deeper if I
don't swirl?

If I just plug it in for a few minutes, the water isn't bubbly enough.

If I leave it for an hour, two things that are bad happen:
1. I lose CO2 because my connections are imperfect, but worse,
2. The water warms up (meaning it will hold less C02).

If you don't know whether the diffusion "should" be instantaneous or if
there is some kind of pragmatic coefficient, that's OK. It works.

I just don't know what I'm doing and why.
Do you?

[pf...@aol.com]

The Troll is back. Please do not feed the troll.

[gghe...@gmail.com]

Diffusion is slow*. You can calculate it. There is probably some
thermally driven currents in water that will mix things faster.
To get an idea of speed put a drop of food coloring into water.

George H.
(*I'm not sure about water, but I mixed up my own tanks
of gas for a CO2 laser and it took weeks to diffuse...
surprised the hell out of me.)

[rickman]

Yes, it can be slow compared to many uses of the word "slow". I've brewed
tea in glass and watched the tea diffuse. Since the water is hot the
diffusion is faster and the cooling causes some current, so you can actually
watch the tea colored water fall out of the tea bag. At 3 °C diffusion will
be much slower. Stirring mixes up the water to bring fresh to the surface.
Better yet is to push the gas through the water as tiny bubbles which is
what they do at a soda fountain. Nearly instantaneous diffusion.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

[et...@whidbey.com]

I can't tell you how fast it will diffuse if the gas is just exposed
to the one surface of the liquid when the container is upright. But I
can tell you that gentle agitation will greatly shorten the time for
the gas to dissolve into the liquid. A friend of mine, who owns a
brewery, told me how he carbonates beer sometimes in a "Corny" keg.
These are the small diameter kegs seen at portable soda fountains. The
ones he carbonates at home are the 5 gallon size. He fills 'em with
the liquid, pressurizes 'em, then lays them on the floor and rolls
them back and forth for about 1/2 hour while watching TV.
Eric

[Mike Coon]

In article <oouoo5$vlg$1...@dont-email.me>, gnu...@gmail.com says...

>
> Yes, it can be slow compared to many uses of the word "slow". I've
brewed
> tea in glass and watched the tea diffuse. Since the water is hot the
> diffusion is faster and the cooling causes some current, so you can actually
> watch the tea colored water fall out of the tea bag. At 3 °C diffusion will
> be much slower. Stirring mixes up the water to bring fresh to the surface.
> Better yet is to push the gas through the water as tiny bubbles which is
> what they do at a soda fountain. Nearly instantaneous diffusion.

I think a major area where agitation makes a big difference is in the
absorption of CO2 in sea water. O2 too, for that matter!

Mike.

[rickman]

The agitation helps through the creation of tiny bubbles greatly increasing
the surface area. If you think about it the agitation itself would do
nothing. Shake a soda bottle that is 100% full and it won't change the
pressure appreciably. Shake a soda bottle that has some air space and the
increase in pressure from the CO2 coming out of solution will be large.

Well... to be honest, I've never actually tried this. It would be worth an
experiment if I had any soda on hand. I have heard of a simple drop causing
a soda bottle to explode. Perhaps that is from both the shock to the bottle
and an increase in pressure from released CO2. To be sure the soda bottle
would need to be 100% full. Shake vigorously or even drop it on the floor
and then open it... well... or maybe a pressure gauge can be attached... lol

[Bob F]

I have read that that using a micro aerator introducing the CO2 in very
small bubbles at the bottom of the receiving container will increwase
the rate of diffusion into the water. Shaking or splashing the water to
increase CO2/H2O contact also helps. With my corny kegs, I can hear the
gas flow in when I shake the top of the keg back and forth. Stop
shaking, and the gas flow quickly tapers down to very slow.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 00:11:09 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dannyd...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I just don't know what I'm doing and why.

Then do some remedial reading on the topic.
<http://www.truetex.com/carbonation.htm>
There should be sufficient theory and numbers in the article to
provide whatever it is you're asking.

Ummmm... what problem are you trying to solve? I probably don't have
an answer, but I'm curious.

>Do you?

Nope. You'll get no advice from me unless you're a masochist and into
Learn By Destroying(tm).

I built my own carbonation contraption from junk in about 1973. I did
just about everything wrong, hit all the pitfalls, and didn't listen
to anyones advice. My best fizz water had a carbonic acid taste
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonic_acid>
and lacerated my tongue because I used too much pressure. I also
tried to use room temperature water, into which CO2 refuses to
diffuse, or if I'm lucky, takes a few days with agitation. I was
fortunate and didn't produce a simulated CO2 powered water rocket, but
did manage to build credible CO2/water sprayer which might make a
usable fire extinguisher.

In 1973 the 2L bottle was just becoming available in the stores. I
had just returned from Israel, where the only economical way to buy
Coca Cola was in 2L bottles. They were everywhere. When I returned
to the USA, I temporarily switched from Coca Cola to Pepsi which was
the only drink at the time available in 2L bottles. Eventually, I
accumulated a supply of 2L bottles (which barely fit in the tiny
refrigerators of the day).

One of my few successes was to copy the common seltzer bottle and
install a siphon tube in the 2 liter PET bottle. The siphon tube
allowed me to bubble agitate the liquid from the bottom of the bottle,
thus dramatically increasing the surface area of the water, and
therefore also increasing the CO2 diffusion rate. Filling the bottle
horizontally, with a bent siphon tube, was even better. However, I
made a fundamental mistake. I had not purged the air from the top of
the 2L bottle before pressurizing, resulting in a fizzy mix of
compressed air and CO2 in carbonic acid. It's easy to tell if you've
made this mistake because the resulting fizz water tastes and smells
horrible. I also attached a gas flow meter and aquarium bubble
counter to check the CO2 flow. The flow meter range was too high and
barely moved the ball. The bubble counter range was too low causing
the initial blast of CO2 to empty the glass vial. Can't win.

Ok, enough anecdotes. Follow the instructions in the above URL or at
least double check your existing setup to see what you've missed. Good
luck.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[pf...@aol.com]

Next time, please do not feed the troll.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 10 Sep 2017 13:58:46 -0700 (PDT), "pf...@aol.com"
<pf...@aol.com> wrote:

>Next time, please do not feed the troll.

But, but, but, what should I do for entertainment value? The best I
can find in sci.electronics.repair is punching reset on a refrigerator
and painting stripes on resistors. Lacking anything more interesting,
feeding an off topic carbonation question will keep me entertained and
out of trouble for at least for a few days.

There once was a usenet troll.
Who thought he was on a roll.
He often did send,
some post without end,
while waiting for bells that toll.

We return you now to whatever you should be doing.

[Mike Coon]

In article <8nsdrcdbg1n686llm...@4ax.com>,
je...@cruzio.com says...

>
> We return you now to whatever you should be doing.

To fulfil some higher purpose? Now there's a whole new topic for debate
(if I could be bothered...)!

Mike.

[bruce2...@gmail.com]

On 9/7/2017 5:11 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Either way, its nothing that a chemistry book can't fix. (They don't actually bite)

[Jeff Liebermann]

Of course. There is no higher purpose than to delay the inevitable
demise of civilization from being buried in the debris left by
unrepaired products. Post apocolyptic movies feature mountains of
non-functional junk laying around for the actors to hide behind as
they shoot at each other. What higher purpose can there be than the
repair of everything civilization can produce so that the actors have
nothing to hide behind? Without repair, every product would come with
an expiration data after which it would self destruct. Without
repair, the landfills will overflow with dead devices. Without
repair, everyone would be forced to pay full list price as used,
refurbished, and reconditioned will cease to exist. As long as we
strive to repair, we can be certain that our efforts are for the
greater good of mankind, which will end in a utopian society where
nothing is wasted and everything lasts forever. No civilization has
yet repaired its way to greatness, but we could be the first.

<https://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto>

[gghe...@gmail.com]

Hmm and yet I feel we are fighting in a 'security screw'
arms race. I've got my ~100 piece set from harbor freight,
https://www.harborfreight.com/100-pc-security-bit-set-with-case-68457.html
When I went to take apart my latest coffee maker, I found that the
tripoint screw was down a long narrow tunnel, such that the screw driver
bit holder was to wide to fit. Curses!
Fortunately I fixed the no hot water problem, by running vinegar through
the machine several times. But still it does not bode well for future
failures.

George H.

[pf...@aol.com]

As far as the life of the planet is concerned, there is little we can do as individuals or as a species that will affect the planet in any material way. All we can do is hasten/impede the next whatisit that comes along following on our heels. But, follow it will despite all our efforts.

Charles Addams had a cartoon: Nuclear Holocaust - last two living creatures on earth (single-cell) look at each other deciding whether to start over or not. One says to the other: "Only, this time, no brains".

Keep in mind that the moment humans became involved with the survival of other humans, evolution (within the human species) effectively stopped dead in its tracks. Evolution has the singular goal to to produce *more*, not necessarily *better* exemplars of any given species - that being the singular definition of "fittest". "Units" that age past the ability to reproduce are impediments to 'more'. Therefore diseases relating to aging are irrelevant to the survival of the species. Diseases that affect reproduction in any negative way at all are impediments to survival. Habits that reduce reproduction are impediments to survival.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Genesis 1:28, King James

The purpose of the human (any) species is to reproduce itself - per Evolution in any case. Again, evolution has ceased in any meaningful way. Like a shark, either a species improves (moves), or it dies. We are moribund, the only matter for discussion is how long it will take.

Finally, on a planetary scale, even that amount of time will be momentary.

Carpe Diem (Horace)

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[gghe...@gmail.com]

Hey what happens if I take a drill to the plastic hole.
I bust the whole thing up, get the screw out,
and then need some longer 'nice' screw to put
it back together. It won't look as nice from the back.

If the plastic is thick enough I might make the hole
big enough to get the bit holder down it, without breaking.

I need some big jig, to hold things on my drill press.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 12 Sep 2017 10:57:11 -0700 (PDT), gghe...@gmail.com wrote:

>Hmm and yet I feel we are fighting in a 'security screw'
>arms race.

What? You don't feel more secure with security screws in place? Just
think of all the bad things that can happen to the company if one of
their screws is not properly secured. Obviously, something must be
done to prevent screws from "accidentally" falling out.

>I've got my ~100 piece set from harbor freight,
>https://www.harborfreight.com/100-pc-security-bit-set-with-case-68457.html

I have two of the same kits. Far too many duplicate bits.

>When I went to take apart my latest coffee maker,

Latest? I deduce that your coffee makers are exhibiting a rather
short half life. Have you considered buying something more durable?
Oh wait... I forgot that you can no longer buy quality appliances at
any price. Never mind.

>I found that the
>tripoint screw was down a long narrow tunnel, such that the screw driver
>bit holder was to wide to fit. Curses!

Yeah, that's a common problem. I have a few assorted long round shank
screwdrivers that have been modified on my bench grinder and Dremel
tool to fit various security screws. If I'm desperate, I'll cut off
the top, and braze it to a steel rod. If you're lazy, take a Dremel
cutoff disk and cut a notch in the base of the bit to fit an
screwdriver blade.

Perhaps this set of extra long security bits?
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/263093504682>

>Fortunately I fixed the no hot water problem, by running vinegar through
>the machine several times. But still it does not bode well for future
>failures.

As long as there is lime (calcium carbonate and oxide) dissolved in
your coffee water, you're going to have the problem. The trick is to
clean the coffee maker BEFORE it totally clogs and won't pass any
vinegar. Unless you like drinking distilled water (it tastes "flat")
or you buy a water softener, you're stuck with an occasional vinegar
flush.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 12 Sep 2017 11:22:16 -0700 (PDT), "pf...@aol.com"
<pf...@aol.com> wrote:

>As far as the life of the planet is concerned, there is little we can do
>as individuals or as a species that will affect the planet in any material
>way. All we can do is hasten/impede the next whatisit that comes along
>following on our heels. But, follow it will despite all our efforts.

Humans have been around for about 80,000 generations. That's not
really enough time for a whatisit to appear and take over.

I have no interest in saving the human race, which may be impossible.
My only interest is to slow down the trend towards non-repairable
products and filling the landfills with devices that can be repaired.
We may well meet our well deserved collective demise from our own
inventions, but at least with repairable products, the end might be
delayed somewhat.

>The purpose of the human (any) species is to reproduce itself - per
>Evolution in any case.

Keep it simple. Your purpose in life is to consume, pollute, and
over-populate. Failing to perform any of these assigned tasks is
severely punished by society. Once you understand that, the rest of
the puzzle falls into place without much effort.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 12 Sep 2017 03:08:01 -0700 (PDT), bruce2...@gmail.com
wrote:

>Either way, its nothing that a chemistry book can't fix. (They don't actually bite)

Book? This is the 21st century. Today, we do web pages, blogs,
forums, wikis, YouTube tutorials, online courses, and online reading.
Books are an anachronism. I tried to read a reference book a few days
ago and couldn't find what I wanted. Then, I remembered that there
was a table of contents and an index, both of which proved to be
useless. I want my search tools, not a word list and pointers to
multiple pages. Used in the traditional manner, books can bite if you
can't find what you need. I suggest you modernize your suggestion and
offer something online instead.

[gghe...@gmail.com]

Oh, that's a good idea! I was thinking we/they need to market
a bit set that also has a hex shaped indentation on the back side
so that you could drive it with an Allen wrench.

>
> Perhaps this set of extra long security bits?
> <http://www.ebay.com/itm/263093504682>

Right, the arms race continues.

George H.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 05:18:44 -0700 (PDT), gghe...@gmail.com wrote:

>On Tuesday, September 12, 2017 at 10:49:16 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2017 10:57:11 -0700 (PDT), gghe...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Yeah, that's a common problem. I have a few assorted long round shank
>> screwdrivers that have been modified on my bench grinder and Dremel
>> tool to fit various security screws. If I'm desperate, I'll cut off
>> the top, and braze it to a steel rod. If you're lazy, take a Dremel
>> cutoff disk and cut a notch in the base of the bit to fit an
>> screwdriver blade.

>Oh, that's a good idea! I was thinking we/they need to market
>a bit set that also has a hex shaped indentation on the back side
>so that you could drive it with an Allen wrench.
>>
>> Perhaps this set of extra long security bits?
>> <http://www.ebay.com/itm/263093504682>

>Right, the arms race continues.

In a previous life, I had to deal with security screws, which were
required by a few customers and creative spec writers. There is an
amazing amount of creativity possible.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=security+screw+heads&source=lnms&tbm=isch>
<https://xkcd.com/1474/>

I thought I was being clever when I specified these fasteners:
<https://www.dhresource.com/600x600/f2/albu/g4/M01/1F/C0/rBVaEVekSsSADmOTAADlLkJHrKg618.jpg>
but ran into problems when someone shipped the radio to an Arab
country.

Google gets my pure evil award for specifying fasteners that use a
friction driver on their Google-Mini server:
<http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/it/googlemini_final/ethernet.jpg>
<http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/it/googlemini_final/screw.jpg>
A screw extractor in the hole didn't work because the stainless steel
fasteners are hardened and it would slip. I would normally slot the
head with a Dremel cutoff tool, but the customer wanted everything
back to stock just in case Google would honor the warranty.
Eventually, they did after all the electrolytics started to bulge and
leak. I had to make a special tool, using a rubber bicycle inner tube
for friction, in order to remove the screws, after about 2 hrs of
trial, error, and swearing.

I won't mention Apple and their Pentalobe screw heads. I think that
the drivers were available on eBay before the iPhone 4 was released,
which probably inspired Apple to now glue its products together.

I also run into security screws on bicycles. I would hate to find
some of these odd pattern fasteners and not have a matching driver:
<http://atomic22.com>
<http://www.torontocycles.com/Titanium_Security_Bolts.html>

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <rllircpppd7dpgs7p...@4ax.com>,
je...@cruzio.com says...

I hate all the 'special' screw heads just to try and keep
people from turning them. I have several chain saws ,leaf
blowers, and other small engines that each one takes a
special tool just to adjust the carborator. Seems like
there are 5 or more special tools just to adjust the
carborators. One company does not offer their tool to
anyone but their service companies. I had to take my
Dremal tool and cut a slot in the head so a regular screw
driver would fit.

Those spcial tools only slow down people and do nt seem to
stop anyone.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 13:02:20 -0400, Ralph Mowery
<rmower...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>I hate all the 'special' screw heads just to try and keep
>people from turning them. I have several chain saws ,leaf
>blowers, and other small engines that each one takes a
>special tool just to adjust the carborator. Seems like
>there are 5 or more special tools just to adjust the
>carborators. One company does not offer their tool to
>anyone but their service companies. I had to take my
>Dremal tool and cut a slot in the head so a regular screw
>driver would fit.
>
>Those spcial tools only slow down people and do nt seem to
>stop anyone.

Yep, that's pretty much the way things work. To protect the
environment from smog produced by chain saws, carburetors are to be
adjusted only by factory authorized experts, or by anyone with an eBay
account:
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/8pk-Screwdriver-Splined-Carb-Carburetor-Adjustment-Chainsaw-Tools-Kit-Repair-Set-/142506605139>
I find it hard that the accumulated smog output from small engines
would be significant, especially when compared to automobiles,
industrial output, and bovine flatulence, but so it is written into
the law.

Incidentally, I was just taking a break from chewing up some lumber
scrap with my nice new Stihl MS180 chain saw. The only user
accessible carburetor adjustment is the idle speed. No problem with a
new saw, but if I ever rebuild the carburetor, I'll surely need to
adjust the low and high speed screws.

[gghe...@gmail.com]

I've got an old Stihl chainsaw. It's got two adjustment screws, I've
only tweaked the one. Dang nice tool!

George H.

[pf...@aol.com]

On Wednesday, September 13, 2017 at 8:20:07 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> I find it hard that the accumulated smog output from small engines
> would be significant, especially when compared to automobiles,
> industrial output, and bovine flatulence, but so it is written into
> the law.

Not so much chain-saws as two-stroke engines in general.

https://www.edmunds.com/about/press/leaf-blowers-emissions-dirtier-than-high-performance-pick-up-trucks-says-edmunds-insidelinecom.html

[et...@whidbey.com]

On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 17:20:02 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Greetings Jeff,
Does your new saw have the wind up starting feature? Several years
ago I bought a new Stihl MS180 C that has this feature and the no
tools required chain tensioning and bar removal system. I bought the
saw manily for the wind up starting because of bad arthritis in both
wrists.
I love the saw. It still starts easy and changing chains and
cleaning the sawdust out is super easy. I think Stihl is now making a
larger saw with the same features and I need to go shopping to see.
The only problem with the saw was when the oiler stopped working. I
called the local Stihl dealer for advice and he said to pour out the
bar oil, replace with fuel mix, run the saw without the bar attached
until the fuel mix starts coming out, and the dump the fuel and
replace with bar oil. His advice was good.
Eric

[Jeff Liebermann]

I'm still having a hard time believing it.
The web site mentioned in the press release:
<http://www.insideline.com>
has disappeared and is being redirected to edmunds.com. I wasn't able
to find the actual report. Nothing on the Edmunds site under
"research". However, the video is still on YouTube:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDxQIHoTmxs>
Seems to be for real, but I still would like to see the numbers and
details.

[gghe...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, September 14, 2017 at 12:42:58 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Sep 2017 06:46:01 -0700 (PDT), "pf...@aol.com"
> <pf...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, September 13, 2017 at 8:20:07 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >>
> >> I find it hard that the accumulated smog output from small engines
> >> would be significant, especially when compared to automobiles,
> >> industrial output, and bovine flatulence, but so it is written into
> >> the law.
> >
> >Not so much chain-saws as two-stroke engines in general.
> >
> >https://www.edmunds.com/about/press/leaf-blowers-emissions-dirtier-than-high-performance-pick-up-trucks-says-edmunds-insidelinecom.html
> >
> >Peter Wieck
> >Melrose Park, PA
>
> I'm still having a hard time believing it.
> The web site mentioned in the press release:
> <http://www.insideline.com>
> has disappeared and is being redirected to edmunds.com. I wasn't able
> to find the actual report. Nothing on the Edmunds site under
> "research". However, the video is still on YouTube:
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDxQIHoTmxs>
> Seems to be for real, but I still would like to see the numbers and
> details.

Interesting, I will observe that I put two or three gallons
of gas through my chain saw in a year. And about 500 through my car.

George H.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 14 Sep 2017 08:48:43 -0700, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

>Does your new saw have the wind up starting feature?

No. Mine is just the MS180 with no extras:
<https://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/ms180/>
There's also the MS180C-BE which has the Easy2Start and the "Quick
Chain Adjust" features:
<https://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/ms180cbe/>
I don't see the MS180C on the product list any more.

>Several years
>ago I bought a new Stihl MS180 C that has this feature and the no
>tools required chain tensioning and bar removal system. I bought the
>saw manily for the wind up starting because of bad arthritis in both
>wrists.

Good reason. I kinda wish I had that for a rather dumb reason. The
rear handle (the one with the trigger) is too small to fit my steel
toe shoes. There's no place to stand on the handle while starting.
The right side of the handle has a knuckle guard that will fit my
shoe, but that means I have to start it left handed. For now, I put a
length of 2x4 through the handle and stand on it when starting, but
that's going to get old rather quickly.

So far, I really like the MS180. It's very light and cuts fast. Power
is acceptable, but I'm having difficulties learning how to start it
properly. Maybe I should read the manual. I wonder if the Ez2Start
device can be added to the MS180.

This is my first Stihl saw. My others are a motley assortment of
Husquvarna, Homelite, McCullogh, junk, etc.
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/chainsaw/index.html>
I have about twice as many saws now.

> I love the saw. It still starts easy and changing chains and
>cleaning the sawdust out is super easy. I think Stihl is now making a
>larger saw with the same features and I need to go shopping to see.

In the "Homeowner" series:
<https://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/ms181cbe/>
<https://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/ms211cbe/>
<https://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/homeowner-saws/ms251cbe/>
Plenty of others in other series. Just look for the C-E suffix.

> The only problem with the saw was when the oiler stopped working. I
>called the local Stihl dealer for advice and he said to pour out the
>bar oil, replace with fuel mix, run the saw without the bar attached
>until the fuel mix starts coming out, and the dump the fuel and
>replace with bar oil. His advice was good.

Yech. I do that a little differently. I have a spare bar oil cap
with a hose barb screwed and glued into the middle. I attach a vinyl
hose to the barb, with the other end to my air compressor. 30 psi
will usually be sufficient to blow out any sawdust and oil mix. That
happens if I store the saw for a few month, and the bar oil turns to
tar. You might look into trying a different brand of bar oil.

I still have about 1/4 cord of firewood from last year. The problem
is that it's all 18" long and my wood burner will only take 16".
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/home/slides/wood-burner.html>
It's going to be a very noisy and tiring weekend.

[gghe...@gmail.com]

My (older) Stihl takes six pulls to start. Every time.
(Well not once it's been running.)

George h.

[et...@whidbey.com]

On Thu, 14 Sep 2017 22:15:40 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

My saw must be the -BE model. It just has 180C printed on the starter
cover. I am pretty sure the Ez2Start assembly can be added to your
saw. It looks like you just swap the starter cover without the EZ
start with the EZ start caover assembly. Starting the saw is kinda
strange. You just pull the starter handle slowly and when it has wound
up enough it turns the engine over. So it takes a little getting used
to. But I love it. Both of my wrists are bone on bone joints now so
stuff like starting high compression engines is hard on them. But I
also live on 10 wooded acres and need to saw stuff up, like when a
tree blows down and blocks the driveway.
Eric

[Jeff Liebermann]

The video claims that a Ryobi leaf blower belches pollutants at about
8 times the rate of the automobile. That's serious. I can't verify
the method used, but I do know something about garden equipment. Ryobi
is near last in terms of quality. I would be a bit less skeptical if
they had used name brand equipment for the comparison.

"Regulations for Emissions from Small Equipment & Tools" (EPA)
<https://www.epa.gov/regulations-emissions-vehicles-and-engines/regulations-emissions-small-equipment-tools>

"National Emissions from Lawn and Garden Equipment"
<https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-09/documents/banks.pdf>

"California Weighs Tougher Emissions Rules For Gas-Powered Garden
Equipment" (Feb 2017)
<http://www.npr.org/2017/02/28/517576431/california-weighs-tougher-emissions-rules-for-gas-powered-garden-equipment>

I've discussed the situation with the local saw shop mechanic. He
attends the various factory training seminars where emissions issues
are discussed. He claims that if the feds or California enact any of
the proposed emission standards, most everything sold (except very
small engines) will need to switch to 4 cycle engines to comply. Part
of the logic is to make the standards 10x more stringent that required
on the assumption that in the field, emissions will increase with the
age of the machine. Husqvarna has delayed switching to 4 stroke with
their X-Torq engine, which offers a substantial reduction in
emissions, but not enough to meet the proposed standards.
<http://www.husqvarna.com/int/international-microsite/about-husqvarna/environmental-responsibility/>
He also notes that battery powered tools are a slick way around the
emissions problems. I've been thinking of converting an AC powered
electric chain saw to running on battery power. Yet another projet.

[rickman]

gghe...@gmail.com wrote on 9/14/2017 3:11 PM:
> On Thursday, September 14, 2017 at 12:42:58 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Sep 2017 06:46:01 -0700 (PDT), "pf...@aol.com"
>> <pf...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, September 13, 2017 at 8:20:07 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I find it hard that the accumulated smog output from small engines
>>>> would be significant, especially when compared to automobiles,
>>>> industrial output, and bovine flatulence, but so it is written into
>>>> the law.
>>>
>>> Not so much chain-saws as two-stroke engines in general.
>>>
>>> https://www.edmunds.com/about/press/leaf-blowers-emissions-dirtier-than-high-performance-pick-up-trucks-says-edmunds-insidelinecom.html
>>>
>>> Peter Wieck
>>> Melrose Park, PA
>>
>> I'm still having a hard time believing it.
>> The web site mentioned in the press release:
>> <http://www.insideline.com>
>> has disappeared and is being redirected to edmunds.com. I wasn't able
>> to find the actual report. Nothing on the Edmunds site under
>> "research". However, the video is still on YouTube:
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDxQIHoTmxs>
>> Seems to be for real, but I still would like to see the numbers and
>> details.
>
> Interesting, I will observe that I put two or three gallons
> of gas through my chain saw in a year. And about 500 through my car.

Sounds about right. That shows you how much they've cleaned up auto
exhaust. It also shows how dirty 2-cycle engines are to start with.

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

[rickman]

et...@whidbey.com wrote on 9/14/2017 11:48 AM:
> The only problem with the saw was when the oiler stopped working. I
> called the local Stihl dealer for advice and he said to pour out the
> bar oil, replace with fuel mix, run the saw without the bar attached
> until the fuel mix starts coming out, and the dump the fuel and
> replace with bar oil. His advice was good.

How do you tell when the bar lube is blocked? I had a saw and was never
sure, so I'd stop it periodically and lube the bar. I only used it once in
a blue moon so rather than deal with the hassles I gave it to a friend. Now
he doesn't want me to borrow it, lol.

[malua mada!]

Starting my Stihl(s)...
Deep breath,
lift the saw to about chest height, then yank up with the left while *dropping* the saw with the right, for added speed. Starting with the saw stationary is harder for me.

About a year ago I bought me a MSA 160c which is a battery powered saw (now superseded I think) and OH! While pricey as hell & small it is competent and pleasant to work with. Doesn't stink. Starts as long as there is charge in the pack. No noise unless it is doing work. My most used saw now.
It starts with the pull of its trigger :-)

[gghe...@gmail.com]

Battery powered is certainly an option. I've got a few mikita
battery powered tools. The wife couldn't use the chain saw but wanted
to trim up small stuff.. (say a max of ~4" diameter.) I bought her a
makita battery powered chain saw*. Now even I use. It's lighter and
only runs when your are cutting something. I

George H.
*as a birthday present.. I know I'm a bit of a stinker buying tools
for the wife for her birthday, but in my defense she really likes it!
And the trails through our woods are well manicured.

[gghe...@gmail.com]

On Friday, September 15, 2017 at 2:41:36 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
> et...@whidbey.com wrote on 9/14/2017 11:48 AM:
> > The only problem with the saw was when the oiler stopped working. I
> > called the local Stihl dealer for advice and he said to pour out the
> > bar oil, replace with fuel mix, run the saw without the bar attached
> > until the fuel mix starts coming out, and the dump the fuel and
> > replace with bar oil. His advice was good.
>
> How do you tell when the bar lube is blocked?

You blow through a tank of gas and the oil reservoir is still full.

GH

[rickman]

gghe...@gmail.com wrote on 9/15/2017 3:25 PM:
> On Friday, September 15, 2017 at 2:41:36 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote:
>> et...@whidbey.com wrote on 9/14/2017 11:48 AM:
>>> The only problem with the saw was when the oiler stopped working. I
>>> called the local Stihl dealer for advice and he said to pour out the
>>> bar oil, replace with fuel mix, run the saw without the bar attached
>>> until the fuel mix starts coming out, and the dump the fuel and
>>> replace with bar oil. His advice was good.
>>
>> How do you tell when the bar lube is blocked?
> You blow through a tank of gas and the oil reservoir is still full.

There's a problem. I would never fill the oil reservoir because I would
never use it enough to empty it and it would leak everywhere the saw sat.

When you cleaned the oiler by filling with gas and dumping it, where did you
dump it? That was my other problem, emptying the tank when I was done with
it for the year or two...

[et...@whidbey.com]

On Fri, 15 Sep 2017 14:41:31 -0400, rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:

>et...@whidbey.com wrote on 9/14/2017 11:48 AM:
>> The only problem with the saw was when the oiler stopped working. I
>> called the local Stihl dealer for advice and he said to pour out the
>> bar oil, replace with fuel mix, run the saw without the bar attached
>> until the fuel mix starts coming out, and the dump the fuel and
>> replace with bar oil. His advice was good.
>
>How do you tell when the bar lube is blocked? I had a saw and was never
>sure, so I'd stop it periodically and lube the bar. I only used it once in
>a blue moon so rather than deal with the hassles I gave it to a friend. Now
>he doesn't want me to borrow it, lol.

One pretty good indication is when the saw runs out of fuel and the
bar oil tank is still almost full. The saw is designed to use fuel a
little faster than bar oil. I imagine all modern chain saws are
designed this way. So when the saw runs out of gas both the fuel tank
and the bar oil get filled. Another indication of lack of bar oil is
that the bar will get hot and you will see sap on the bar starting to
brown or even smoke.
Eric

[et...@whidbey.com]

The bar oil that was in the tank went back into the bar oil jug. The
fuel mix that I dumped was used as fire starter for the pile of small
branches and leaves that are too small to stack for firewood. Every
time I cut up trees there are lots of small branches to get rid of and
they get burned in our fire ring. As do the blackberry and salmon
berry canes. We live on 10 wooded acres and have only about 1 acre
cleared. But keeping that one acre free of berry canes means lots of
canes get burned every year. And I never run out of firewood because
it seems like there is always a hemlock or two that blows down or an
alder or three that needs to be cut down because the tree(s) has
become dangerous.
Eric

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 15 Sep 2017 08:44:03 -0700, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

>My saw must be the -BE model. It just has 180C printed on the starter
>cover. I am pretty sure the Ez2Start assembly can be added to your
>saw. It looks like you just swap the starter cover without the EZ
>start with the EZ start caover assembly.

It won't work. Apparently it also requires a new flywheel and starter
assembly. There's no conversion kit available. Here's an article (2
pages) with the details on how it went on a Stihl MS250 saw.
<http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/converting-stihl-ms250-to-ez-start.231966/>
Account required to view the PDF's.

>Starting the saw is kinda
>strange. You just pull the starter handle slowly and when it has wound
>up enough it turns the engine over. So it takes a little getting used
>to. But I love it. Both of my wrists are bone on bone joints now so
>stuff like starting high compression engines is hard on them. But I
>also live on 10 wooded acres and need to saw stuff up, like when a
>tree blows down and blocks the driveway.

Glad it works for you. I'm still in fairly good shape so hopefully
that won't be a requirement for me. However, I'm lazy and would
probably buy an electric start conversion if there were such a thing.
I've often thought a removable ratcheting hand crank start, like in my
former Land Rover Series IIa might be easier than a string pull.

I live in an overgrown redwood and douglas fir forest. However, my
days of dropping trees are in the distant past. These days it's
construction scrap, clearing smaller trees, brush clearing, and
trimming oversized firewood. I probably spend more time repairing
other people's saws than using my own.

Sigh. I big branch came down in the last storm. While cleaning off
the roof today, I noticed it had bashed in the 2x6 T&G roof and split
one board. Tomorrow will be dedicated to gluing the mess back
together. Yet another normal day in the deep dark forest.
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/home/>

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 15 Sep 2017 14:41:31 -0400, rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:

>How do you tell when the bar lube is blocked?

Remove the bar and chain. Chain oil comes out of a hole that mates
with a corresponding hole in the bar that only goes half way through
the bar (i.e. the hole is only on one side of the bar). Run the saw
without the bar, chain, or cover, for about 60 seconds. You should
see oil slowly dripping or exiting as a small mist out of the hole in
the body. If nothing comes out, it's clogged further upstream or the
pump is trashed. Lots of YouTube videos on testing and fixing
chainsaw oilers:
<https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=chainsaw+oiler>

More common is that the oil hole in the bar is clogged with a mixture
of oil, dirt, and sawdust. This would probably be a good time to
clean out the bar groove, dress the bar, remove the sharp edges,
flatten any dings, lube the sprocket, etc.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=chainsaw+bar+maintenance>
No need for the specialized tools. Just a scraper that fits in the
groove, hand file, and trisquare. If the lack of oil has caused the
bottom of the side plates on the chain to wear and the edges of the
bar to mushroom into sharp edges, you may need to have the bar squared
and the groove deepened.

Also, it helps to flip over the bar to extend the wear life. Most
people don't like the way the saw looks with the manufacturers name
inverted on the bar, but that's a small price to pay for extending the
life of the bar.

[bruce2...@gmail.com]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>On Tue, 12 Sep 2017 03:08:01 -0700 (PDT), bruce2...@gmail.com
wrote:
>
>>Either way, its nothing that a chemistry book can't fix. (They don't actually bite)
>
>Book? This is the 21st century. Today, we do web pages, blogs,
>forums, wikis, YouTube tutorials, online courses, and online reading.
>Books are an anachronism.

What do you think still keeps Barnes and Noble and all of the classrooms still churning? Ask about them when you go by the applied sciences dept. at the local college.

(you are familiar with continuing ed., right?)

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 17 Sep 2017 01:01:54 -0700 (PDT), bruce2...@gmail.com
wrote:

Barnes and Noble stock has dropped -34% in the last year. 11 years
ago, the stock peaked at $30.31 but is currently at $7.15. They might
be churning for a few years more, but if the present trend continues,
they would not be a great investment opportunity.

Why they're still in business and why colleges prefer paper books to
electronic media is a messy question. I have a Kindle paper white
reader, a Google Nexus 7 tablet, and several Chromebooks, all of which
have the Kindle reader software installed, along with various other
eBook readers and converters. I'm a prolific reader of technical
publications and reports. The electronic readers have several
advantages over paper books. They take up less space, the documents
can be searched, and they don't get moldy when my roof leaks directly
over my bookshelf:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/home/slides/bookshelf.html>
Yet, I prefer to read on paper instead of LCD and have to force myself
to read the eBook equivalent. The is reason is the same as why Barnes
and Noble is still in business... tradition, inertia, habit, and
resistance to change. The present trend towards digitized books will
continue until all the dinosaurs, like me, are gone.

Of course, the skools are even more conservative, even bordering on
reactionary. Electronic textbooks really cut into the textbook
vendors profits. The skools are always looking for ways to save
money, but textbook sales are a sacred cow, where the complex
financial arrangements between the skools and the vendors has
stabilized into a mutual beneficial arrangement. Never mind what's
good for the students. That arrangement has created abominations such
as Elsevier, Springer, etc,
<http://www.vocativ.com/culture/science/five-corporations-control-academic-publishing/>
which will gladly sell research papers, that were originally paid for
by public funds, for exorbitant prices (Paywall). Much of that goes
back to the copyright holding skools. When that cozy arrangement
finally breaks down, as I'm sure it will, I suspect electronic books
and papers will magically become far more popular. Meanwhile, there's
Sci-Hub:
<https://scihub.org>
<https://www.sciencealert.com/this-woman-has-illegally-uploaded-millions-of-journal-articles-in-an-attempt-to-open-up-science>

>(you are familiar with continuing ed., right?)

Never heard of it. I'm too busy reading, writing, designing, and
repairing to bother with any formal education program.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 17 Sep 2017 09:53:14 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>Meanwhile, there's Sci-Hub:
><https://scihub.org>

Ooops. Wrong URL for Sci-Hub. This should be the right one.
<https://sci-hub.io>

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 16 Sep 2017 20:23:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:
(...)

Forgive me, for I have splurged. My shiny new Stihl MS180 is a nice
saw but has a weakness. The chain 0.043 gauge instead of the more
common 0.050. The stock narrow chain cuts nicely and fast, but needs
to be sharpened too often. In cutting up some scrap lumber today, I
had to sharpen it after only about 30 min run time. My other saws can
go for hours between sharpenings.

I found this YouTube video on how to fix the problem:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrFM-8C-qV0>
A little digging found a replacement bar and chain on eBay:
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/192054090789>
For $19 and a 4-6 week wait, it seems like a tolerable risk.

[et...@whidbey.com]

On Sun, 17 Sep 2017 19:55:50 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

wrote:

>On Sat, 16 Sep 2017 20:23:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>wrote:
>(...)
>
>Forgive me, for I have splurged. My shiny new Stihl MS180 is a nice
>saw but has a weakness. The chain 0.043 gauge instead of the more
>common 0.050. The stock narrow chain cuts nicely and fast, but needs
>to be sharpened too often. In cutting up some scrap lumber today, I
>had to sharpen it after only about 30 min run time. My other saws can
>go for hours between sharpenings.
>
>I found this YouTube video on how to fix the problem:
><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrFM-8C-qV0>
>A little digging found a replacement bar and chain on eBay:
><http://www.ebay.com/itm/192054090789>
>For $19 and a 4-6 week wait, it seems like a tolerable risk.

The guy at the Stihl store told me I can put a different and longer
bar on mine. So I'm gonna do what you did. The skinny chain also does
not cut as fast as the .05 chain because of the safety anti-kickback
feature in the skinny chain. I bought the fastest cutting .043 chain I
could find but it still doesn't cut as fast as the non-kickback chain
does.
BTW, I have been using chain saws for about 40 years and have always
tried to be safe. I always tried hard to avoid kickback after I saw
the scars on a fellow worker's arm from a saw kicking back. I never,
until this last summer, had a saw kick back hard enough that it got
even close to a body part. But it finally happened and the chain brake
worked just like it was supposed to. Even if the chain had hit me it
would have been stopped. Those brakes are a great idea. I never set
the saw down without first engaging the brake.
Eric

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 09:57:41 -0700, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

>On Sun, 17 Sep 2017 19:55:50 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 16 Sep 2017 20:23:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>wrote:
>>(...)
>>
>>Forgive me, for I have splurged. My shiny new Stihl MS180 is a nice
>>saw but has a weakness. The chain 0.043 gauge instead of the more
>>common 0.050. The stock narrow chain cuts nicely and fast, but needs
>>to be sharpened too often. In cutting up some scrap lumber today, I
>>had to sharpen it after only about 30 min run time. My other saws can
>>go for hours between sharpenings.
>>
>>I found this YouTube video on how to fix the problem:
>><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrFM-8C-qV0>
>>A little digging found a replacement bar and chain on eBay:
>><http://www.ebay.com/itm/192054090789>
>>For $19 and a 4-6 week wait, it seems like a tolerable risk.

>The guy at the Stihl store told me I can put a different and longer
>bar on mine. So I'm gonna do what you did.

The stock bar is 16" while the most common replacements mentioned are
14". There seems to be some variation in the way the bars are
measured. If you look at the video above, the 14" bar appears to be
only about 1" shorter, not 2". I ordered a 14" bar because I couldn't
find a cheap 16" bar and chain and I have a big saw with a 24" bar.
Trying to drive a long bar with only a 32cc engine is not going to
work well.

>The skinny chain also does
>not cut as fast as the .05 chain because of the safety anti-kickback
>feature in the skinny chain. I bought the fastest cutting .043 chain I
>could find but it still doesn't cut as fast as the non-kickback chain
>does.

Thanks. I've never tried a low-kickback chain. I have a bar nose
kickback protection plate on some of my bars. They work, but prevents
me from cutting oversized logs. Otherwise, I'm just careful not to
dig the nose into the ground or notch in the cut.

>BTW, I have been using chain saws for about 40 years and have always
>tried to be safe.

My involvement with chainsaws started when I bought this house in
1973. That would be 44 years. However, I'm getting too old for doing
my own firewood and have been buying my firewood for exorbitant
prices.

>I always tried hard to avoid kickback after I saw
>the scars on a fellow worker's arm from a saw kicking back. I never,
>until this last summer, had a saw kick back hard enough that it got
>even close to a body part. But it finally happened and the chain brake
>worked just like it was supposed to. Even if the chain had hit me it
>would have been stopped. Those brakes are a great idea. I never set
>the saw down without first engaging the brake.

I've been lucky so far but have had a few close calls. The chain
brake saved me once, but that was enough. Oddly, I have had more near
accidents when starting a chainsaw than running one. I tend to get
sloppy when tired and it shows when starting. These days, I always
start a saw on the ground, not tree climber style in the air. I
should lock the brake more often, but often forget.

Good luck and I'll let you know how the bar and chain transplant work.

>Eric

[Michael A. Terrell]

gghe...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Hmm and yet I feel we are fighting in a 'security screw'
> arms race. I've got my ~100 piece set from harbor freight,
> <https://www.harborfreight.com/100-pc-security-bit-set-with-case-68457.html>
> When I went to take apart my latest coffee maker, I found that the
> driver tripoint screw was down a long narrow tunnel, such that the
> screw bit holder was to wide to fit. Curses!
> Fortunately I fixed the no hot water problem, by running vinegar
> through the machine several times. But still it does not bode well
> for future failures.


I braze the security tips onto a piece of 1/4" drill rod, or an old
screwdriver. With the 1/4" rod, you can make them as log as you want them.


--
Never piss off an Engineer!

They don't get mad.

They don't get even.

They go for over unity! ;-)

[rickman]

LCD sucks because it gives eyestrain over longer reading sessions. ePaper
is better with much higher contrast, not unlike paper, hence the name.

That said, I don't read much longer than a magazine article these days. So
LCD is mostly fine for me. I would like to have an ePaper screen, but I'm
not willing to give up ownership of my reading material, so no Kindle for me.

> Of course, the skools are even more conservative, even bordering on
> reactionary. Electronic textbooks really cut into the textbook
> vendors profits.

Nonsense. Electronic media *increases* profits due to lower production costs.

One thing that caught my attention when reading about the differences is the
idea of connecting emotionally with a book. I realized that I have done
this. The act of picking up a book to read creates a strong association
between a book and its contents. This doesn't happen with ebooks because
the reader is connected to so many other books and if the reader is a
laptop, so many other tasks.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 11:38:20 -0400, rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Jeff Liebermann wrote on 9/17/2017 12:53 PM:

>LCD sucks because it gives eyestrain over longer reading sessions. ePaper
>is better with much higher contrast, not unlike paper, hence the name.

Agreed and good timing. I just bought an ancient (2009) Kindle DX
reader (with a very dead battery) for $40:
<https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=kindle+dxg>
It has a 150 dpi (1200x824) 9.7" diag Perl e-paper screen which looks
great for MOBI or AZW formatted documents. However, for viewing PDF
formatted documents, it's barely readable. I'm investigating the
cause and cure as time permits.

ePaper is certainly easier on the eyes (and battery) but the Perl
e-paper display is only good for 10:1 contrast ratio. The more recent
Carta displays have twice the resolution (300 dpi) and somewhat better
15:1 contrast.
<http://blog.the-ebook-reader.com/2013/11/11/screen-comparison-e-ink-carta-vs-e-ink-pearl/>
Meanwhile, a TN LCD display is good for 1000:1 contrast ratio, and the
latest IPS display can do 1,000,000:1.
<https://www.anandtech.com/show/10874/panasonic-develops-ips-panel-with-10000001-contrast-ratio-1000-nits-brightness>
So, it's not the contrast ratio that makes e-paper easier on the eyes.
It's the dot resolution that makes e-paper easier on the eyes.
I'm currently writing this on a 24" diagonal 1920x1200 LCD display.
<http://lcdtech.info/en/data/pixel.size.htm>
That's only 94.3 pixels/inch while my Kindle DX is 150 dpi and the
latest e-paper is 300 dpi.

I've somewhat confirmed this by spending a few days behind one of the
newer high resolution displays. At 21" and 3840x2160 dots, that works
out to 210 pixels/inch. It was very easy on my eyes and there was no
sign of eyestrain (except when I stupidly sat at the machine for a 3hr
session and forgot to occasionally focus on some distant object).

Also, I use an Acer Chromebook 14 (CB3-431-C5EX) for reading. It's
advertised as a 1920x1080 IPS display, but will do a much higher
resolution:
dots pixels/inch
1536x864 126
1920x1080 157
2400x1350 197
These are far better than the 94.3 pixels/inch of my 24" desktop
monitor. Despite the tiny size of the characters in the highest
resolution, everything is perfectly readable with minimal eye strain.
It's the pixels/inch, not the contrast ratio that makes things more
readable.

However, there's a fly in the ointment. The industry's addiction to
semi-transparent desktops results in low contrast text, especially
when displayed in faded pastel colors. Despite the improved pixel
density, such text is a PITA to read. I find myself using the high
contrast color schemes and using "reader view" in the browsers, just
to defeat this latest assault on my eyes by the screen artists. Blah.

>That said, I don't read much longer than a magazine article these days. So
>LCD is mostly fine for me. I would like to have an ePaper screen, but I'm
>not willing to give up ownership of my reading material, so no Kindle for me.

I just plug my various Kindle's into a USB port. The Kindle shows up
as a drive letter. I copy the file from my desktop to the Kindle
documents directory. I turn off auto-sync. The files magically
appear on the reading list without ever seeing the Amazon servers. I
can also send a file directly to a Kindle via email, but that could be
read by Amazon, which seems to intercept the file, and instead send me
an email informing me that the file is ready to download. It wasn't
always that way and I'm suspicious.

>> Of course, the skools are even more conservative, even bordering on
>> reactionary. Electronic textbooks really cut into the textbook
>> vendors profits.
>
>Nonsense. Electronic media *increases* profits due to lower production costs.

Rubbish. The problem is piracy by students. No sooner does a book
become available, that it's scanned, converted to various formats, and
distributed:
"How to Digitize Your Textbooks"
<http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hack-college/how-to-digitize-your-text_b_730879.html>
Here's a video of a Canon Imagerunner 5000 scanning one of my manuals
on both sides of the page in one pass.
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/CanonImageRunner5000.wmv> (4.1MB)

>One thing that caught my attention when reading about the differences is the
>idea of connecting emotionally with a book. I realized that I have done
>this. The act of picking up a book to read creates a strong association
>between a book and its contents. This doesn't happen with ebooks because
>the reader is connected to so many other books and if the reader is a
>laptop, so many other tasks.

That also happened to me for many years. I had a small collection of
my favorite references that I would go to for everything. However, as
I moved away from books and into electronic media, the attachment went
away because electronic media was electronically searchable, while
paper media was a painful slog through the index and table of
contents. I didn't realize how far away I had gotten from paper books
until I had to look something up in one, and realized what a painful
exercise searching for content in a paper book really was.

There's also a question of size. I have a few file cabinets and
bookshelves full of books and magazine clippings. I also have a few
flash drives and a USB hard disk full of scanned (and searchable)
eBooks, captured web pages, and images. Basically, much of my working
library in my pocket. As more of what I have on my bookshelf becomes
available in electronic format, more of my paper books will become
donated or recycled.

[rickman]

Too much here to respond to, but also consider that ePaper displays don't
flicker. Even if you don't notice the flicker, moving your eyes creates
distortion while the ePaper display is fixed.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 04:26:52 -0400, rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Too much here to respond to,

Sorry. I was in a hurry and didn't have time to be brief.
Actually, I got interested in the topic and decided that it was worth
expounding in detail. Enjoy.

>but also consider that ePaper displays don't
>flicker. Even if you don't notice the flicker, moving your eyes creates
>distortion while the ePaper display is fixed.

Flicker doesn't bother me much, so I don't notice it. The usual
method of reducing LCD flicker is to use any vertical refresh rate
that's not 60 Hz. However, on my desktop (Samsung SyncMaster 243T
1920x1200), I'm running 60 Hz because higher refresh rates (72 and
75Hz) result in a blurred image. I can't really see it with graphics,
but with high contrast text, it's really obvious. I've also noticed
this on some other monitors but not on all monitors.

I don't know about eye movement causing distortion. The problem is
that on an LCD, each pixel is a combination of different color dots.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=lcd+magnified&tbm=isch>
To produce a white pixel, all the color dots need to be turned on
resulting in a large and potentially blurry pixel. That's not a
problem with e-paper, which only has to deal with turning one B&W dot
on and off.
<http://www.bit-101.com/blog/?p=2722>
Try a magnifier on your devices and see for yourself.
More on this (time permitting) if you're interested.

[rickman]

Not sure what you mean when you say flicker doesn't bother you. You don't
have to see the flicker for it to cause a problem. The point is your eyes
don't adjust to a flickering screen as well as one that isn't flickering.
Your eyes constantly readjusting is what makes them tired.