Phillips screw security bit?
David Farber
into it had some electrical problem and caused the circuit breaker in my
house to trip. When I removed the Kill-A-Watt from the ac outlet, the ground
pin had a nice burn mark on it and now the display is dead. There are three
Phillips screws on the back of the unit but one of them appears to have one
of those raised points in the center of it which prevent you from putting in
a regular bit. I cannot find any security tool in my collection that fits
this type of screw. I'm not even sure what to search for online. The screw
looks like a torx bit but it only has four notches. Any idea what tool fits
this?
Thanks for your reply.
--
David Farber
Los Osos, CA
William Sommerwerck
won't be able to fix it.
Various dealers often have it on sale. It might be less trouble to wait a
week or two.
David Farber
No fusible link?
Thanks for your reply,
tm
"David Farber" <farberbe...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:i9i7fk$j3r$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> William Sommerwerck wrote:
>> The Kill-A-Watt appears to be a heavily integrated product. You
>> probably won't be able to fix it.
>>
>> Various dealers often have it on sale. It might be less trouble to
>> wait a week or two.
>
> No fusible link?
>
> Thanks for your reply,
>
Yeah, the whole thing is the fusible link.
tm
David Farber
Nice. (-;
Thanks for you reply (I think)
Rich Webb
Hmmm. Just checked the back of the 4460 here and all three screw heads
are Philips. It's a few years old, though, so maybe their lawyers got
involved or something.
Regardless, I wonder if a "spanner security bit" would work here? It's
shaped rather like a regular flat-bladed screwdriver but with a notch in
the center. You could probably make one by sizing a small flatblade with
one of the other screws and grinding a notch in the center.
--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA
tm
Well, there is a shunt about 1 mm in diameter in the L1 leg. N goes
straight through. There is a small fuse, a 0.47 uF cap, and a 100 ohm 1 watt
flame proof resistor supplying power to the active electronics. My unit is
several years old and has three phillips screws.
Is yours open from source to load?
tm
David Farber
I took a very small regular flat-bladed screwdriver and didn't expect much.
However it was able to catch hold and remove the screw. The screw is just a
regular Phillips head that looks like it suffered some irregularities from
trying to be removed with the wrong tool. I guess it doesn't really matter
now. Inside, everything looks clean. There is a small 10mm pigtail 200ma
fuse which is in tact.
So I reassembled everything, plugged it back in and it worked. Now for the
big d'oh moment. I think when I tested the Kill-A-Watt after the blowout, it
was before I noticed the circuit breaker had been tripped. Ok, move along,
nothing to see here. (-:
David Farber
Nothing open. The unit now works. Thanks for taking the trouble to research
this. See my post after Rich Webb's to see what happened.
Jeff Liebermann
<farberbe...@aol.com> wrote:
>The screw
>looks like a torx bit but it only has four notches. Any idea what tool fits
>this?
To the best of my knowledge, there's no such thing. All my
Kill-a-watt boxes use standard Philips screw heads.
Photo of the guts which may help once you gain entry:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/kill-a-watt.html>
The upper photo is the older 4 button version. The lower photo is the
5 button version. Except for the price tag, the differences are
subtle.
The fuse is labeled F1 in the lower left. I had the brass power plug
connections develop a broken solder connection, probably from
excessive movement of the power plug (i.e. tripping over the cord).
The patent might help if you have to troubleshoot down to the
component level:
<http://www.google.com/patents?id=G3MDAAAAEBAJ&dq=6095850>
Some litigatory entertainment value:
<http://greenpatentblog.com/2008/12/24/smartlabs-enjoined-parties-smart-management-focuses-issues-in-energy-meter-litigation/>
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
David Farber
> On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:09:59 -0700, "David Farber"
> <farberbe...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> The screw
>> looks like a torx bit but it only has four notches. Any idea what
>> tool fits this?
>
> To the best of my knowledge, there's no such thing. All my
> Kill-a-watt boxes use standard Philips screw heads.
>
> Photo of the guts which may help once you gain entry:
> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/kill-a-watt.html>
> The upper photo is the older 4 button version. The lower photo is the
> 5 button version. Except for the price tag, the differences are
> subtle.
>
> The fuse is labeled F1 in the lower left. I had the brass power plug
> connections develop a broken solder connection, probably from
> excessive movement of the power plug (i.e. tripping over the cord).
>
> The patent might help if you have to troubleshoot down to the
> component level:
> <http://www.google.com/patents?id=G3MDAAAAEBAJ&dq=6095850>
>
> Some litigatory entertainment value:
> <http://greenpatentblog.com/2008/12/24/smartlabs-enjoined-parties-smart-management-focuses-issues-in-energy-meter-litigation/>
Hi Jeff,
I posted a few minutes before your post that there was nothing wrong with
the meter. I had tested the meter before I had realized the circuit breaker
had tripped. The fact that the burn-marked ground terminal that plugs into
the wall did not connect to any of the circuitry in the Kill-A-Watt should
have been my first clue. It just passes the ground connection to the device
under test.
Jim Yanik
news:i9i6vm$4dl$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
it's still nice to be able to open one up and see what's inside.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
Michael A. Terrell
That calls for 30 wacks with a rubber chicken! ;-)
--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.
Fred McKenzie
"David Farber" <farberbe...@aol.com> wrote:
> There is a small 10mm pigtail 200ma
> fuse which is in tact.
David-
I had a generator with a bad governor, putting out over 300 Volts. It
blew the 200 Ma fuse in my Kill-A-Watt.
I haven't been able to find a 200 Ma fuse. It turns out that a standard
1/4 inch 1/4 Amp fuse with wire leads soldered on, fits in the space
available. Its better than no fuse at all!
Your philips screw may have just had a mutilated standard head. But if
someone went into it before you, they could have replaced the screw with
one with a "Pozi-Drive" head that looks like philips from a distance.
The pozi-drive system can apply more torque to the screw than philips.
If you work on Hewlett Packard test equipment, it might be worthwhile
finding some pozi-drive bits.
Fred
William Sommerwerck
My intuition is that the Kill-A-Watt doesn't have a fusible link. Its
sensing circuit is probably designed to handle 20A or so. The circuitry is
probably fed from a high-impedance resistive divider, which would not lend
itself to "fuse" protection.
William Sommerwerck
Of course! That's always fun. I've been tempted to open mine.
William Sommerwerck
> Now for the big d'oh moment. I think when I tested the Kill-A-Watt
> after the blowout, it was before I noticed the circuit breaker had
> been tripped. Ok, move along, nothing to see here. (-:
This raises a possibly related problem -- something I call "CMOS lockup". A
device starts working oddly, or not at all, and then after it's for a while,
it works again. I've seen this on at least four items.
Jeff Liebermann
A picture is worth well maybe a dozen words:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/kill-a-watt.html>
The upper is the older 4 button variety. The lower version is 5
button. Also note the fuse in the lower left.
Max current is 15A (1875VA):
<http://www.p3international.com/products/special/P4400/P4400-CE.html>
<http://www.p3international.com/products/p4460.html>
Rich Webb
Got it. So, in addition to the rule "When all else fails, use a bigger
hammer," we should append "or a smaller screwdriver!"
Well, at least you had a good excuse to crack one open and take a look
at the works. No day is wasted when one has learned something new (or at
least took something new apart).
M.Joshi
You didn't mnetion what a Kill-A-Watt P4460 is in your original post.
For the benefit of others, I did a search online. It's an electricity
power meter to display how much energy you are using.
The maximum power of an appliance plugged should not exceed 1875 VA.
What did you have plugged in and how much power does it require?
The Torx bit with a hole in the centre is commonly found in modern
security bit sets. You should be able to find one in your local
hardware store/supermarket. Otherwise, you'll find one on Ebay.
M. Joshi
--
M.Joshi
Michael A. Terrell
"M.Joshi" wrote:
>
> You didn't mnetion what a Kill-A-Watt P4460 is in your original post.
> For the benefit of others, I did a search online. It's an electricity
> power meter to display how much energy you are using.
>
> The maximum power of an appliance plugged should not exceed 1875 VA.
>
> What did you have plugged in and how much power does it require?
>
> The Torx bit with a hole in the centre is commonly found in modern
> security bit sets. You should be able to find one in your local
> hardware store/supermarket. Otherwise, you'll find one on Ebay.
Hell, just go to Harbor Freight for security bits. A lot cheaper
than a radware store, or Ebay + Shipping. They even have the small
sizes needed for hard drives.
Wild_Bill
There are quite a few newer styles of fasteners that are generally only in
specialized sets, not usually found in local store hardware departments.
When trying to find some of them a while ago, I came across a driver
style/type referred to as tri-wing.. looks like phillips head at a glance,
but only 3 "wings".
There are tri- and quad- (looks even more like a phillips) types too, and
the peculiar characteristic is that the wings don't converge in the center,
the way phillips and pozi-drive recesses do.
There are also some tri- types that have a plain center with 3 radial
notches, but I don't know what they're commonly called.
The 2-notch types aren't much of a challenge, and either of these types may
not require the specific driver, if one can exercise a little persistence.
I picked up a couple stes of security drivers at a hamfest about 2 years
ago, that have the 1/4" hex "bits" in a rubbery holder for about $7. Cheap
Chinese-made drivers, but effective.
The Torx security fasteners with a pin in the center are fairly old.. I
first noticed them on a 1980 El Dorado, securing the frontend sheetmetal.
When these newer types of fasteners are installed in deeply recessed holes,
they can be a little stubborn, but they're just screwed into plastic, so
more of an annoyance than a problem.
Fasteners that have a low spot in the center of the head can often be
removed with a low speed left handed twist drill, and there are now some
driver "bits" that are ground just like a LH drill point, marketed
especially for removing stripped-out phillips screw heads.
I encountered a plastic case a few years ago that appeared to have 3
phillips screws and a fourth fastener that had a plain flat, round head, and
they were in deep recesses.
I managed to pierce the plain, flat part with a sharp tool point, and it
turned out to be a thin, small, plated brass cap that was pushed into the
hole, on top of the plain phillips screw. It came out fairly easily with a
dental pick.
Searching for triwing or tri-wing screwdrivers or driver bits will likely
turn up numerous sources for tool sets of the newer, somewhat peculiar
fasteners, for future encounters.
--
Cheers,
WB
.............
"David Farber" <farberbe...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:i9i65d$898$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
David Nebenzahl
> "M.Joshi" wrote:
>
>> You didn't mnetion what a Kill-A-Watt P4460 is in your original post.
>> For the benefit of others, I did a search online. It's an electricity
>> power meter to display how much energy you are using.
>>
>> The maximum power of an appliance plugged should not exceed 1875 VA.
>>
>> What did you have plugged in and how much power does it require?
>>
>> The Torx bit with a hole in the centre is commonly found in modern
>> security bit sets. You should be able to find one in your local
>> hardware store/supermarket. Otherwise, you'll find one on Ebay.
>
> Hell, just go to Harbor Freight for security bits. A lot cheaper
> than a radware store, or Ebay + Shipping. They even have the small
> sizes needed for hard drives.
Yep. I've got that set. Got it right here in front of me, ackshooly.
It's got, lessee, 32 bits: Torx-with-a-hole-in-the-middle,
hex-with-a-hole-in-the-middle, tri-wing, "spanner"-type slotted, and
some weird offset 4-wing bits.
Of course, even with that many bits there are some "security" fasteners
these won't fit. But it's a very good start, and cheap, too.
--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.
- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)
Michael A. Terrell
David Nebenzahl wrote:
>
> On 10/18/2010 7:53 PM Michael A. Terrell spake thus:
>
> > "M.Joshi" wrote:
> >
> >> You didn't mnetion what a Kill-A-Watt P4460 is in your original post.
> >> For the benefit of others, I did a search online. It's an electricity
> >> power meter to display how much energy you are using.
> >>
> >> The maximum power of an appliance plugged should not exceed 1875 VA.
> >>
> >> What did you have plugged in and how much power does it require?
> >>
> >> The Torx bit with a hole in the centre is commonly found in modern
> >> security bit sets. You should be able to find one in your local
> >> hardware store/supermarket. Otherwise, you'll find one on Ebay.
> >
> > Hell, just go to Harbor Freight for security bits. A lot cheaper
> > than a radware store, or Ebay + Shipping. They even have the small
> > sizes needed for hard drives.
>
> Yep. I've got that set. Got it right here in front of me, ackshooly.
> It's got, lessee, 32 bits: Torx-with-a-hole-in-the-middle,
> hex-with-a-hole-in-the-middle, tri-wing, "spanner"-type slotted, and
> some weird offset 4-wing bits.
>
> Of course, even with that many bits there are some "security" fasteners
> these won't fit. But it's a very good start, and cheap, too.
That is only one of many sets of security bits they sell.
There is a set of 100 (with some duplicates) bits:
<http://www.harborfreight.com/100-piece-security-bit-set-91310.html>
A set of 32 (+ extension) in the soft plastic skin:
<http://www.harborfreight.com/33-piece-security-bit-set-93388.html>
A set of 32 longer security bits
<http://www.harborfreight.com/32-piece-3-inch-long-reach-security-bit-set-95680.html>
And a set of six from T-5 to T-9:
<http://www.harborfreight.com/6-piece-star-bit-set-93316.html>
A screwdriver with T-3, T-4, T-5, T-6, T-7, T-8, T-9 and T-10 bits.
<http://www.harborfreight.com/9-piece-precision-star-bit-pocket-screwdriver-66472.html>
They also have sets for automotive work:
<http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result?category=&q=star+bit>
Including some 'e' sockets for external torx screws:
http://www.harborfreight.com/16-piece-star-e-socket-and-bit-set-36562.html
Plain...@yawho.com
The tool is called a Phillips Security Bit. They aren't uncommon.
I've seen them at swap meets, ham fests, and are available on eBay.
PlainBill
AZ Nomad
Allodoxaphobia
Harbor Freight sells a small rubber block holding 32 bits for all manner
of styles and sizes of such weird drivers. Use'em in a 1/4" hex nut
driver (or, 1/2" power drill....) All Made in Chia -- but you can't
avoid that easily now-a-days.
Jonesy
--
Marvin L Jones | jonz | W3DHJ | linux
38.24N 104.55W | @ config.com | Jonesy | OS/2
* Killfiling google & XXXXbanter.com: jonz.net/ng.htm
David Nebenzahl
> On Tue, 19 Oct 2010 09:28:28 -0700, Plain...@yawho.com wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:09:59 -0700, "David Farber"
>> <farberbe...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm trying to disassemble a Kill-A-Watt P4460. A device that was
>>> plugged into it had some electrical problem and caused the
>>> circuit breaker in my house to trip. When I removed the
>>> Kill-A-Watt from the ac outlet, the ground pin had a nice burn
>>> mark on it and now the display is dead. There are three Phillips
>>> screws on the back of the unit but one of them appears to have
>>> one of those raised points in the center of it which prevent you
>>> from putting in a regular bit. I cannot find any security tool in
>>> my collection that fits this type of screw. I'm not even sure
>>> what to search for online. The screw looks like a torx bit but it
>>> only has four notches. Any idea what tool fits this?
>>>
>> The tool is called a Phillips Security Bit. They aren't uncommon.
>> I've seen them at swap meets, ham fests, and are available on eBay.
>
> Harbor Freight sells a small rubber block holding 32 bits for all
> manner of styles and sizes of such weird drivers. Use'em in a 1/4"
> hex nut driver (or, 1/2" power drill....) All Made in Chia -- but
> you can't avoid that easily now-a-days.
I have that set, as I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, but it doesn't
have the bit the O.P. needs (Phillips-with-a-hole-in-the-middle). It
does, however, have some other interesting "security" bits, and as
Michael Terrell pointed out, HF sells other security bit sets that may
have it. The quality is very good, BTW.
But any decent hardware store will probably have the needed bit. (*Not*
the big orange store.)
Allodoxaphobia
> ... All Made in Chia -- but you can't avoid that easily now-a-days.
My apologies to the makers of the Chia Pet -- which I did not mean
to denigrate. (But, it's probably made in China now, too...)
Jonesy
N_Cook
news:4cbe33a3$0$2451$8226...@news.adtechcomputers.com...
Has anyone mentioned cracking off the pip with a bit of ground down
toolsteel hammered punch-fashion in the head of the screws? Sometimes even
the shortened shaft of a pop-rivet (universal meaning?). I watched a "how do
they do it" on Peterbild ? USA truck maker and they called them Hucker bolts
?
Michael A. Terrell
N_Cook wrote:
>
> Has anyone mentioned cracking off the pip with a bit of ground down
> toolsteel hammered punch-fashion in the head of the screws?
That can damage some equipment. The Kill-A-Watt P4460 is in a small
plastic case.
> Sometimes even
> the shortened shaft of a pop-rivet (universal meaning?). I watched a "how do
> they do it" on Peterbild ? USA truck maker and they called them Hucker bolts
> ?
Old truck driver's joke:
Old truckers never die. They just get a new PETERBILT
http://www.peterbilt.com/history.aspx
N_Cook
news:beudncu4sJGrnSLR...@earthlink.com...
so those blind rivets are Huck bolts
Michael A. Terrell
I've never heard that term before today.
David Nebenzahl
> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:beudncu4sJGrnSLR...@earthlink.com...
>
>> Old truck driver's joke:
>>
>> Old truckers never die. They just get a new PETERBILT
>>
>> http://www.peterbilt.com/history.aspx
>
> so those blind rivets are Huck bolts
1. How can a rivet be a bolt?
2. That joke apparently flew right over your head.
AZ Nomad
>On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:09:59 -0700, "David Farber"
><farberbe...@aol.com> wrote:
>>I'm trying to disassemble a Kill-A-Watt P4460. A device that was plugged
>>into it had some electrical problem and caused the circuit breaker in my
>>house to trip. When I removed the Kill-A-Watt from the ac outlet, the ground
>>pin had a nice burn mark on it and now the display is dead. There are three
>>Phillips screws on the back of the unit but one of them appears to have one
>>of those raised points in the center of it which prevent you from putting in
>>a regular bit. I cannot find any security tool in my collection that fits
>>this type of screw. I'm not even sure what to search for online. The screw
>>looks like a torx bit but it only has four notches. Any idea what tool fits
>>this?
>Hmmm. Just checked the back of the 4460 here and all three screw heads
>are Philips. It's a few years old, though, so maybe their lawyers got
>involved or something.
>Regardless, I wonder if a "spanner security bit" would work here? It's
>shaped rather like a regular flat-bladed screwdriver but with a notch in
>the center. You could probably make one by sizing a small flatblade with
>one of the other screws and grinding a notch in the center.
For a device like the kill-o-watt, just grab the screws with a sharp pair of
diagonal cutters and turn. Then use needlenose pliars to finish turning the
screws out. That POS isn't worth a $5 tool investment.
Or are they recessed? Tapping a sharp standard screwdriver with a hammer till it
bites would do the trick.
Jamie
Or, you can go to a place like Harborfrieght and get a large set for
cheap which has that fork tungue bit in it of various sizes..
http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result?category=&q=security+bits