Self-Repair Manifesto
Jeff Liebermann
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Jeffrey Angus
> <http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto>
Mmmm, fix it goodness.
I'd spotted this earlier on there I fixed it (I think)
thanks for the link to a very clean source of it.
Jeff
the other other one.
Jeff Liebermann
Y'er welcome. I printed a few for my palatial office.
I like the line "Repair teaches Engineering", but would prefer my own
"Learn by Destroying".
I backtracked the iFixit version from the credits near the bottom:
<http://www.misterjalopy.com/?page_id=219>
<http://www.platform21.nl/download/4375>
My repair warranty:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/diploma.jpg>
There hasn't been much progress in improving the quality of the
customers since I wrote this 16 years ago:
Support, Santa Cruz Style or Where Do These People Come From?
<http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/95q1/compnightmares.html>
Jeff (If this stuff worked, you wouldn't need me) L.
Franc Zabkar
put finger to keyboard and composed:
>On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 06:14:05 -0600, Jeffrey Angus
><jan...@suddenlink.net> wrote:
>
>>On 11/14/2010 2:05 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> <http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto>
>>
>>Mmmm, fix it goodness.
>>
>>I'd spotted this earlier on there I fixed it (I think)
>>thanks for the link to a very clean source of it.
>>
>>Jeff
>>the other other one.
>
>Y'er welcome. I printed a few for my palatial office.
>
>I like the line "Repair teaches Engineering", but would prefer my own
>"Learn by Destroying".
>
>I backtracked the iFixit version from the credits near the bottom:
><http://www.misterjalopy.com/?page_id=219>
><http://www.platform21.nl/download/4375>
>
>My repair warranty:
><http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/diploma.jpg>
>
>There hasn't been much progress in improving the quality of the
>customers since I wrote this 16 years ago:
>Support, Santa Cruz Style or Where Do These People Come From?
><http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/95q1/compnightmares.html>
>
>Jeff (If this stuff worked, you wouldn't need me) L.
Thanks very much for posting these links. I'm glad there are others
who think as I do. BTW, I'm posting this on a 12 year old, socket 7,
Windows 98 machine.
- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
Charles
"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
news:ku5vd69620loo76cn...@4ax.com...
<http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto>
Sorry, but the year is 2010 and repair of recent and future electronic
products is not going to happen, as least as what can be accomplished by Joe
consumer. For the factory authorized geek squad, sure they PERHAPS have
access to data and modules and software and they can, in some cases, repair
electronic items.
I'd love for it be so, by the way. I detest sending stuff to landfills and
to recycling centers. But the truth is that there is not much inside a
modern electronic gadget that is repairable. SMT has rendered component
replacement impossible, for many cases. Schematics are no longer
obtainable. Embedded software makes troubleshooting almost impossible.
Repair parts are not available. And the list goes on.
Richard Feynman (a Nobel winner) often talked about taking radios apart. If
he would try that now, he would move on to biology.
Plain...@yawho.com
Wrong on so many counts that it is laughable. SMT devices require new
techniques. ONE example of many similar events. About a year ago I
obtained a 'dead' 50" plasma TV. Plug it in, it tries to turn on,
then the red light on the front panel starts flashing 2 short, 1 long.
Download the service manual (free from Elektrotanya.com), it's
flashing error 12; problem with the 12V supply. Read the service
manual. 12V error may be due to a problem with the audio amp or with
the DC-DC converter. Disconnect the audio amp, no change. Read more
of the service manual. Overloading the 12V supply by the DC-DC
converter may be due to shorted mosfets. In that case, replace both
the mosfets and the controller, all are SMD parts. (The DC-DC-
converter is part of the Small Signal Board, available online for
under $100).
Order the parts from Digikey, for a total cost of less than $10,
including shipping. Use Chipquick and a soldering iron to remove the
old parts, solder braid to remove the old solder and Chipquick,
install the new parts. Reassemble the TV, cross my fingers, plug it
in. It turns on and works perfectly. Just for luck I verify all
power supply voltages and update it to the latest firmware.
The biggest problem was moving the 100 lb + monster around.
I've said this repeatedly, new technology requires new techniques.
The people who claim it's unrepairable either have a vested interest
in selling a new one or are incompetent.
PlainBill
Jeff Liebermann
<charles...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
>news:ku5vd69620loo76cn...@4ax.com...
>
><http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto>
>
>Sorry, but the year is 2010 and repair of recent and future electronic
>products is not going to happen, as least as what can be accomplished by Joe
>consumer.
Really? The iPhone is allegedly unrepairable, but various non-factory
people have done quite well at cracking the case and doing useful work
inside. Plenty of other "no user serviceable parts inside" examples.
I agree that this is not for the timid, but it's certainly still
possible to do useful repairs. What the manifesto is about is the
attitude, policy, design, and conspiracies of the manufacturers to
intentionally prevent users from fixing their gadgets, often for no
better reason than to sell more replacement devices. While the days
of user repairable devices seems to be shrinking, so are the days of
designed obsolescence and landfill fodder.
>For the factory authorized geek squad, sure they PERHAPS have
>access to data and modules and software and they can, in some cases, repair
>electronic items.
That's the problem. There's no reason for that to happen except the
greed and policy of the manufacturers.
>I'd love for it be so, by the way.
Ask yourself. Are you part of the solution or the problem? If you
think you're part of the solution, then do something that will make it
happen. A nasty letter or email to the public relations department of
your favorite eWaste destined supplier might be a useful start.
Purchasing repairable products might also be useful.
Incidentally, in 1983 I purchased a new pickup truck. On the original
order was a printed copy of the service manual. When the manual was
not forthcoming about 1 month later, I attempted to return the vehicle
to the dealer for failure to complete the transaction. I was serious.
I had no intention of purchasing a car that required the dealer to
repair. At 285,000 miles and 23 year later, I sold it without ever
having to deal with an "authorized" repair situation. Much of what I
currently own and use follows the same policies. I avoid buying
anything that I can't fix myself. It's not always possible, but given
a choice, it's high on my list of selection criteria.
>I detest sending stuff to landfills and
>to recycling centers.
Yep. However, a major source of spare parts for my repair biz is the
local recycler, so please continue to send stuff to the recyclers.
>But the truth is that there is not much inside a
>modern electronic gadget that is repairable. SMT has rendered component
>replacement impossible, for many cases.
I can handle SMT parts. It's not easy and does take both special
equipment (hot air SMT desoldering station and nozzles) and
considerable practice. I sometimes use a microscope. In my case, the
limiting factor is my failing eyesight. However, I'm lusting after a
USB microscope camera.
>Schematics are no longer
>obtainable.
<http://kythuatvitinh.com/forum.php>
<http://www.eserviceinfo.com>
etc. I have some nicely reverse engineered schematics of some popular
equipment. What I miss are the voltages and waveforms on the
schematic. I annotate mine whenever possible.
>Embedded software makes troubleshooting almost impossible.
Plugging into a JTAG port and hacking my way in is quite easy. That
port is designed specifically for development and troubleshooting and
often includes some tolerable diagnostics. There's usually a
password, which can be Googled or guessed.
>Repair parts are not available.
Have you looked on eBay? There are large numbers of parts and pieces
vendors selling cannibalized devices at often reasonable prices. I
have nothing against using used parts, but some of my customers don't
like it. So, I buy brand new parts from Chinese vendors.
>And the list goes on.
Don't forget badly conceived legislation regulating unscrupulous
repair shops and company policied forbidding employees from repairing
anything. Liability-R-Us and such.
>Richard Feynman (a Nobel winner) often talked about taking radios apart. If
>he would try that now, he would move on to biology.
True. What you're missing is that repair these days is rarely down to
the component level. Most often, it's by the board, module, or
sub-assembly level. These can be found and are usually easily
replaced. Repairing the individual modules, without the necessary
fixtures and test equipment is a problem.
The real problems are that these devices are not designed to be
repairable and are designed to be assembled, not disassembled. It
would not take much for a manufacturer to fix these, but it would
result in a slightly more expensive product. Perhaps if manufacturers
were required to deal with their own eWaste, they might reconsider
their policies.
Wild_Bill
pirated service manual for free, if you would have been willing to pay
$60-$100 for a service manual.
Essentially, you got lucky with the availability of the service
documentation.
Nearly anything man-made can be repaired.
New technology requires new equipment to be able to service it.. I see
micro-sized SMT components that are barely visible, and I wouldn't care to
handle repairs involving these components without the proper tools and a
very good microscope.
I have a B&L stereo zoom microscope, head worn stereo loupes (Eschenback and
others) and various video cameras that would be helpful in viewing the
micro stuff, but even these tools don't make repair jobs on the newer micro
stuff simple.
I have hot air and typical soldering/desoldering equipment, and professional
(above average hobbiest/enthusiast) troubleshooting equipment, and I still
don't have any desire to repair any of this cheaply made, newer technology
equipment.
I admit that if someone were to give me an out-of-warranty, free, expensive
piece of equipment, I'd be curious enough to spend a little time
troubleshooting just to satisfy my curiosity.
I prefer to buy quality older equipment that can be repaired (large CRT
stuff excluded), instead of microprocessor-based, firmware operated stuff
that's generally much more difficult to repair, even if any
documentation/online-hack info is available.
--
Cheers,
WB
.............
<Plain...@yawho.com> wrote in message
news:lsh5e6psn3od195ks...@4ax.com...
Wild_Bill
don't understand the safety aspects of line operated equipment.
Any time I get a used piece of equipment, I examine it for signs of
disassembly and repairs.
One sign of a not-so-bright DIY type, is large burrs on the phillips case
screws.
When manufacturers make service documentation available for line operated
equipment, they don't know that only trained professional service/repair
people will properly interpret the service info. They include disclaimers,
but that my not be a bullet-proof legal position.
Something as simple as placing a long screw where a short screw belongs, can
compromise the safety of a properly designed, line-isolated hot chassis.
Put simply, unsupervised, untrained DIY-types shouldn't be repairing
line-operated equipment.
Any experienced equipment servicer should know that it only takes very
little current to interrupt normal heart rhythm.
When someone buys a piece of equipment that has been repaired improperly,
it's a smear on the manufacturer's reputation.
If I were a manufacturer, I wouldn't want improperly repaired pieces of my
products available as used (unauthorized refurbished) equipment, injuring or
pissing off a lot of consumers.
An improperly repaired/modified charging circuit causes a battery to explode
and/or catch fire, for example.
I imagine that the best way to stop throw-away product manufacturing would
be to stop buying it.
I don't like that nearly all of the cheaply made products are ending up in
landfills, any more than anyone else.
Apparently many consumers don't realize that buying this cheap crap costs
them twice, the first time to go to the store and the purchase, then a
second time to dispose of it.
Careers in management of waste should be abundant for years into the future.
The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania actually accepts municipal (and probably
industrial) waste to be hauled into PA from as many as 15 other states
(maybe more, now).
Since PA is bordered by only 6 states, this would mean that states beyond
the bordering states are hauling waste long distances to dump waste into PA
landfills.. that's a lot of fuel, whether the waste is moved by truck (most
likey transportation) or railway.
According to statistics, Americans generated nearly 230 million tons of
municipal solid waste in 1999 (when many stores didn't sell practically all
made in China goods).
Of the 230M tons, it's stated that 28% was recycled, and 15% incinerated.
I wonder what the term "recycled" actually means in report statistics.
Maybe some of the plastic products were used in synthetic lumber products,
possibly.. or just sent to a recycler that may have just disposed of the
materials later.
--
Cheers,
WB
.............
"Jeff Liebermann" <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:ku5vd69620loo76cn...@4ax.com...
Jeff Liebermann
<wb_wi...@XSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
>Nearly anything man-made can be repaired.
Yes, but it might not be worth fixing, especially if a replacement is
low cost. I constantly run into problems spending inordinate amounts
of time fixing some trivial device. Sure, it can be fixed, but I
can't build a business on such repairs. Expensive and exotic hardware
is about all I can make a profit on. For example, it takes me about 4
billable hours to clean up and upgrade a virus infected computer. At
$75/hr, it's almost more economical to purchase a newer and faster
machine, than to fix the old one. So, in order to keep from losing
the customer, I have to heavily discount my time and do it for less
than posted rate. Otherwise, they run to their favorite discounter
and just start over with a new machine. Same with some low end
entertainment electronics. It's even worse with hardware. I can
easily fix a typical PC power supply for a few dollars in parts and
about 1.2 billable hours. However, who's going to pay me $100 to fix
a $25 power supply?
What's needed is some assistance from the manufacturer. Schematics,
test points, easily available parts, troubeshooting info, easy access,
diagnostics, etc will all reduce the amount of time I burn fixing
something, which translates to a lower cost repair.
Jeff Liebermann
<fza...@iinternode.on.net> wrote:
>I'm posting this on a 12 year old, socket 7,
>Windows 98 machine.
>- Franc Zabkar
I call those Zombies. They're ugly, slowly shuffle through the
office, and are quite brainless. I have a 486DX2/66 running SCO Unix
3.2v4.2, but that's only because it refuses to die, and I'm too lazy
to replace it with a more modern Linux server. I also have a
collection of quite usable 1970's and 1980's vintage test equipment:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/home/slides/lab.html>
but only because the stuff works and I find not compelling reason to
upgrade. (Yes, that's a Nixie tube counter on top of the spectrum
analyzer). What you don't see in the photo is a rather large pile of
broken test equipment waiting for me to get inspired to fix. The good
news is that most test equipment is made to be repaired (except for
some TMS series Tek scopes where I bought before I researched).
Anyway, this isn't about retro enthusiast, hobbyist repairmen, or
tightwads (like me). It's about manufacturers not creating artificial
obstacles to repair for those that want to keep their toys running.
JW
wrote in Message id: <fjj5e6husm6qkdghp...@4ax.com>:
>>Schematics are no longer
>>obtainable.
>
><http://kythuatvitinh.com/forum.php>
><http://www.eserviceinfo.com>
Some more good sites, mostly test equipment:
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/
http://128.238.9.201/~kurt/manuals/manuals/
http://www.ko4bb.com/
Jeffrey Angus
> If I were a manufacturer, I wouldn't want improperly repaired pieces of
> my products available as used (unauthorized refurbished) equipment,
> injuring or pissing off a lot of consumers.
Motorola tried that in Federal Court back in 2005.
Despite the law firm they hired, and the scape goat they tried
to crucify, they failed.
Had they won, imagine the ramifications. Nobody BUT the
manufacturer would be authorized to repair items and there
would be no third party parts or accessories for sale.
Imagine being hauled into Federal Court on a charge of counterfeiting
because you added different radio to your vehicle. Because it
is "no longer factory spec."
Frightening to say the least.
Jeff
Plain...@yawho.com
<wb_wi...@XSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
No, the TV was not free. I have enough confidence in my skills that I
was willing to pay the seller's asking price for it. I'm not sure
where you came up with that $60-$100 price for a service manual; My
experience was that $10 was a more typical price, although one major
manufacturer sent them out free upon letterhead request. Your
assertion that I got lucky is pure bullshit - I KNEW the service
manual was available. But that is beside the point, many service
manuals are available at litte or no cost. Other equipment (LCD
monitors, for example) is simple enough that a service manual isn't
necessary.
I agree, a hot air station would make the rework easier, so what? The
fact is that a $15 kit of SolderQuik will substitute for your fancy
hot air system.
All told, you have proved my point. SMT does not make repair
impossible; I know it makes repair easier. Certainly it was easier to
replace the three SMT ICs than it would have been to replace the
larger through-hole devices.
Further, you have verified my other belief. It's not the cost of the
equipment that makes the difference, it's the brains of the person
using it.
PlainBill
Plain...@yawho.com
wrote:
>On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 00:34:59 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
><wb_wi...@XSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Nearly anything man-made can be repaired.
>
>Yes, but it might not be worth fixing, especially if a replacement is
>low cost. I constantly run into problems spending inordinate amounts
>of time fixing some trivial device. Sure, it can be fixed, but I
>can't build a business on such repairs. Expensive and exotic hardware
>is about all I can make a profit on. For example, it takes me about 4
>billable hours to clean up and upgrade a virus infected computer. At
>$75/hr, it's almost more economical to purchase a newer and faster
>machine, than to fix the old one. So, in order to keep from losing
>the customer, I have to heavily discount my time and do it for less
>than posted rate. Otherwise, they run to their favorite discounter
>and just start over with a new machine. Same with some low end
>entertainment electronics. It's even worse with hardware. I can
>easily fix a typical PC power supply for a few dollars in parts and
>about 1.2 billable hours. However, who's going to pay me $100 to fix
>a $25 power supply?
>
>What's needed is some assistance from the manufacturer. Schematics,
>test points, easily available parts, troubeshooting info, easy access,
>diagnostics, etc will all reduce the amount of time I burn fixing
>something, which translates to a lower cost repair.
Very true. I've got one on the bench behind me. It's a Thinkpad R30.
The original problem was trivial - the CMOS battery was dead. The
fumble fingered fool who tried to replace it popped the battery holder
off the main board. (Poor design - it should have been glued in
place). Now it gets more difficult - the entire top of the case must
be pulled to allow clearance for a soldering iron. Once that has been
accomplished a couple of touches with a soldering iron and the holder
is back in place. Only two more problems. The same fumble fingered
fool has managed to mangle both USB ports. One is broken free from
the motherboard. Fortunately, the present owner doesn't care. As it
is, he's going to cringe at the bill.
PlainBill
Plain...@yawho.com
And a few more:
www.elektrotanya.com
http://english.electronica-pt.com/
http://www.4shared.com/dir/7126951/48ec3448/LCD_PWR__INVERTER.html
Complaining to manufacturers about the lack of service manuals may be
useful. Bragging about the big bucks invested in test equipment, and
whining about how unrepairable hardware is may be satisfying to the
ego. The above links certainly helped me, so I added a few. Thanks,
Jeff and JW.
PlainBill
Jeff Liebermann
>Very true. I've got one on the bench behind me. It's a Thinkpad R30.
>The original problem was trivial - the CMOS battery was dead. The
>fumble fingered fool who tried to replace it popped the battery holder
>off the main board. (Poor design - it should have been glued in
>place). Now it gets more difficult - the entire top of the case must
>be pulled to allow clearance for a soldering iron. Once that has been
>accomplished a couple of touches with a soldering iron and the holder
>is back in place. Only two more problems. The same fumble fingered
>fool has managed to mangle both USB ports. One is broken free from
>the motherboard. Fortunately, the present owner doesn't care. As it
>is, he's going to cringe at the bill.
>
>PlainBill
Or, you could have purchased a replacement on eBay for about $100.
<http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230550980225>
That's about 1.2 hrs of labor for me. Tearing apart a laptop, doing
minimal repair (usually a broken power jack), putting it back
together, and doing the necessary testing, usually burns at least 2.0
hrs. It might be cheaper to buy the un-mangled laptop off eBay, than
to repair the damage. It might also be a good time for an upgrade as
the Thinkpad R30 is a really slow machine.
IBM did it better than most manufacturers. While they used a wide
variety of screw lengths, they're marked on the case and detailed in
the documentation. For the R30:
<http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/MIGR-39797.html>
While there are no schematics, at least they explain how to tear it
apart and put it back together.
Wild_Bill
2010.
You got lucky in being able to obtain a service manual, from whatever
source.
Maybe you'll realize it was luck, when you see another golden opportunity,
but no service literature is available.
I know when service literature isn't available, a project turns into a
research project.. and I believe many others have BTDT too.
There were test equipment manufacturers that would send a free schematic for
obsolete equipment years ago.. but even BK Precision, Beckman and numerous
others wouldn't even send a owner/user guide for free, and that was going
back quite a few years.
I was in the repair/service industry for years, and I know what dealing with
the public is like, and it's not worth the aggravation, for any price,
especially now when consumer goods manufacturers don't support their
products.
Apparently, you get bent out of shape easily.
I was only saying that I won't work on the cheap new crap, despite having a
good deal of test and repair equipment, because I prefer not to.
The equipment is for my own use, since I won't do repairs for anyone other
than a few close friends.
But I'll tell them to throw away their $40 VCR, because I'm not interested
in using up my time on such things.
So what if I do own several pieces of hot air equipment? It's just for my
convenience, so I don't need to improvise a method to remove a part, not
that I would be lost without it.. I've improvised in the past, and having
better equipment definitely beats improvising.. again, BTDT.
You didn't really make a point about those tiny, micro-sized SMT components
that populate most boards now.. ICs aren't difficult to see or replace.
I also said I prefer to buy older stuff, because it is more easily
repairable, and I do maintain my own stuff.
Marantz, Sony, and others, don't send free service manuals, although there
are very affordable third party suppliers.. eBay sellers that have used or
scanned manuals, (whether legally or not.. I don't know).
Teac Aerospace Division, purchased by Goodrich, doesn't supply service
manuals, or any systems related literature. I don't think I'd even be able
to find an agent or service center to buy spare parts from.
There are a multitude of other manufacturers, which don't make cheap
consumer goods, that don't sell or provide product documentation to any
outside agents.
But you're correct.. all that one needs to repair anything electronic, is a
soldering iron and the exceptional sense which you possess.
--
Cheers,
WB
.............
<Plain...@yawho.com> wrote in message
news:7f38e6t5o5o7p7k7f...@4ax.com...
Charles
"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
news:2pu6e6l0vdlmqaebk...@4ax.com...
On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 00:34:59 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
<wb_wi...@XSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
>Nearly anything man-made can be repaired.
Yes, but it might not be worth fixing, especially if a replacement is
low cost. I constantly run into problems spending inordinate amounts
of time fixing some trivial device. Sure, it can be fixed, but I
can't build a business on such repairs.
Are you not contradicting yourself here?
Jeff Liebermann
No. I'm a compulsive repairman. Everything I see needs to be fixed.
If I can't fix it, it needs to be re-engineered. Everything can be
designed or built better. Spending my time on such efforts is not
particular profitable, but neither are most other hobbies. If I
wanted to get rich quick, it wouldn't be in the repair biz (unless I
was fixing something really expensive and exotic).
Charles
"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
news:a93ce69ku7pejisgq...@4ax.com...
On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 18:28:29 -0500, "Charles"
<charles...@comcast.net> wrote:
>"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
>news:2pu6e6l0vdlmqaebk...@4ax.com...
>
>On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 00:34:59 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
><wb_wi...@XSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Nearly anything man-made can be repaired.
>
>Yes, but it might not be worth fixing, especially if a replacement is
>low cost. I constantly run into problems spending inordinate amounts
>of time fixing some trivial device. Sure, it can be fixed, but I
>can't build a business on such repairs.
>
>Are you not contradicting yourself here?
No. I'm a compulsive repairman. Everything I see needs to be fixed.
If I can't fix it, it needs to be re-engineered. Everything can be
designed or built better. Spending my time on such efforts is not
particular profitable, but neither are most other hobbies. If I
wanted to get rich quick, it wouldn't be in the repair biz (unless I
was fixing something really expensive and exotic).
Jeff, sorry but, you REALLY lost me. Who wrote "Yes, but it might be not
worth fixing ...."
You seem to be one who is facing a new reality that is very distasteful and
is thrashing about both internally and externally (your rants here).
Again, sorry, not trying to bust your crotch as we actually agree as to the
fundamental issue (which is the disregard for waste and recycling issues
caused by modern manufacturing methods). I also like fixing things and do
it when I can and am mostly frustrated these days.
However, in the USA at least, the latest and the greatest has become the
mantra for most folks with bucks to spend. Heck, they send stuff to the
recycling center that works just fine because they want the new bells and
whistles. Sigh!
Jeff Liebermann
<charles...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
>news:a93ce69ku7pejisgq...@4ax.com...
>
>On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 18:28:29 -0500, "Charles"
><charles...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
>>news:2pu6e6l0vdlmqaebk...@4ax.com...
>>
>>On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 00:34:59 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
>><wb_wi...@XSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Nearly anything man-made can be repaired.
>>
>>Yes, but it might not be worth fixing, especially if a replacement is
>>low cost. I constantly run into problems spending inordinate amounts
>>of time fixing some trivial device. Sure, it can be fixed, but I
>>can't build a business on such repairs.
>>
>>Are you not contradicting yourself here?
>
>No. I'm a compulsive repairman. Everything I see needs to be fixed.
>If I can't fix it, it needs to be re-engineered. Everything can be
>designed or built better. Spending my time on such efforts is not
>particular profitable, but neither are most other hobbies. If I
>wanted to get rich quick, it wouldn't be in the repair biz (unless I
>was fixing something really expensive and exotic).
>Jeff, sorry but, you REALLY lost me. Who wrote "Yes, but it might be not
>worth fixing ...."
It would be helpful if you would explain where I was contradicting
myself. I don't see it.
I take the ewaste and recyling problem seriously, but in this
newsgroup, I'm largely preaching to those that already believe.
However, in all honesty, I had never bothered to consider repair as an
alternative to recycling, primarily because the cost of repair of
often far more than the cost of recycling.
>You seem to be one who is facing a new reality that is very distasteful and
>is thrashing about both internally and externally (your rants here).
>
>Again, sorry, not trying to bust your crotch as we actually agree as to the
>fundamental issue (which is the disregard for waste and recycling issues
>caused by modern manufacturing methods). I also like fixing things and do
>it when I can and am mostly frustrated these days.
>
>However, in the USA at least, the latest and the greatest has become the
>mantra for most folks with bucks to spend. Heck, they send stuff to the
>recycling center that works just fine because they want the new bells and
>whistles. Sigh!
Last week, I went to the local recycler to unload some eJunk and drag
home some more. On top of the pile was a nearly new HP DeskJet 8500
all-in-one printer, that looked like it had been removed from the
shipping box, run perhaps once or twice, and then tossed. It's been
recently replaced by the 8600. The owner probably wanted the latest
greatest and just tossed it. I left it because I have no customer
that needs an injet printer.
Michael A. Terrell
Isn't that a wireless/ethernet/USB model?
--
For the last time: I am not a mad scientist! I m just a very ticked
off scientist!!!
William Sommerwerck
only a little more than the replacement ink.
Jeff Liebermann
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Last week, I went to the local recycler to unload some eJunk and drag
>> home some more. On top of the pile was a nearly new HP DeskJet 8500
>> all-in-one printer, that looked like it had been removed from the
>> shipping box, run perhaps once or twice, and then tossed. It's been
>> recently replaced by the 8600. The owner probably wanted the latest
>> greatest and just tossed it. I left it because I have no customer
>> that needs an injet printer.
> Isn't that a wireless/ethernet/USB model?
Yes. I have a customer with one. It was kinda tricky to setup via
wireless but I managed (without reading the instructions). OfficeJet
Pro 8500.
<http://www.shopping.hp.com/product/printer/Officejet/1/storefronts/CB022A%2523B1H>
I didn't think of taking a photo. Sorry. The power supply had been
separated and thrown into a different bin by the staff, so that would
have been a problem. Still, it was almost new with, no scratches, no
damage, no signs of wear, no signs of use, etc. What a waste...
Michael A. Terrell
William Sommerwerck wrote:
>
> One reason people toss out working inkjet printers is that a new one costs
> only a little more than the replacement ink.
Not all of them. That 8500 retails for $400.
Michael A. Terrell
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 13:15:34 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >> Last week, I went to the local recycler to unload some eJunk and drag
> >> home some more. On top of the pile was a nearly new HP DeskJet 8500
> >> all-in-one printer, that looked like it had been removed from the
> >> shipping box, run perhaps once or twice, and then tossed. It's been
> >> recently replaced by the 8600. The owner probably wanted the latest
> >> greatest and just tossed it. I left it because I have no customer
> >> that needs an injet printer.
>
> > Isn't that a wireless/ethernet/USB model?
>
> Yes. I have a customer with one. It was kinda tricky to setup via
> wireless but I managed (without reading the instructions). OfficeJet
> Pro 8500.
> <http://www.shopping.hp.com/product/printer/Officejet/1/storefronts/CB022A%2523B1H>
> I didn't think of taking a photo. Sorry. The power supply had been
> separated and thrown into a different bin by the staff, so that would
> have been a problem. Still, it was almost new with, no scratches, no
> damage, no signs of wear, no signs of use, etc. What a waste...
That is a $400 printer.
Wild_Bill
consumer equipment service/repair industry wasn't a thriving opportunity
when I got away from it years ago.
Retail costs come down, and production quality, resulting in cheap (to buy
new) equipment/toys/trash with more problems than before.
Fuck that noise.
Way back when, decades ago.. consumer home entertainment equipment
manufacturers had levels of dealers, who performed service and repairs,
stocked parts and sent their techs to training courses.
Manufacturers supported their products with spare parts, service and
training literature and in-home repairs were just normal business to keep
customers satisfied with those brands.
Today, the Chinese are designing and producing modern home entertainment
equipment (and much more), which essentially has no brand name.
Companies with brand names can contract to buy 100k units with their name on
them, and I seriously doubt that they want to buy Chinglish service
literature, so that is an optional decision. They may outsource/hire a
company to provide them with a limited number of service manuals for a
couple of warranty work centers, or they may hire a repair depot to just
"wing it" for warranty repairs without any literature (but high tech
universal, programmable, automated GenRad? test rigs and some sharp
personnel using hot air or infrared rework equipment).
Warranty repairs don't have to be actual repairs, just a replacement with a
refurbished unit from the repair depot. At this point in the life of the
product (almost obsolete already) a little shipping cost is just to try to
keep the customer happy with that brand, but probably more importantly -
meeting the legal requirements of the warranty.
So, the shipping company becomes a major player in the brand name's support
chain. The consumer returns a failed product to a store or sends it to a
repair depot, and the shipper delivers a refurbished unit to the consumer..
done.
If a brand name "manufacturer" chooses to contract the units from a Chinese
source with a very good track record for quality control/reliability, they
may just scrap or bulk sell/broker the failures within the warranty period,
and renegotiate the terms of the contract to reflect their losses.
They're sure as hell not going to return them to China.
So the brand name "manufacturer" saves huge bucks by not supporting the rest
of the support chain that was normal decades ago.. and those are likely some
massive profits compared to back then, but those same product support levels
would be extremely expensive to support nowadays.
They may offer some 800-HEY-RTFM phone support for dummies, also outsourced.
I firmly believe that it's unlikely that consumers will effect changes in
the new economic business models.. the gubbmint in the U.S. aggressively
supports corporate profits and global "trading", and generally insures that
the consumers are "managed".
There are companies that produce schematics from equipment circuit boards,
but if the process was highly profitable, there would be an abundant supply
of literature.
If there were more independent service shops, the process might be
profitable, but it's a little too late.
Until someone develops an economical bed-of-nails test jig and software to
translate signals into schematics, many future repairs are going to be
poke-n-hope.
BTW, the test jig will also need to decipher the firmware that the
"manufacturer" likely owns as intellectual property.
The independent service/repair shop isn't needed for these new economic
business models. The consumers aren't interested in supporting independent
shops anymore, they'd rather have a new shiney toy than a repaired obsolete
item.
The brand name saves huge bucks, and the independent repair shops stop
accepting consumer goods.
Repair shops can adjust by specializing in better quality equipment that has
real value (not just a sparkley attraction).. commercial, industrial,
high-end audio/video, or vintage gear, for example.
Many other businesses are also affected.. HW Sams(?) Photofact and other
publishers, test equipment manufacturers, and other third party suppliers.
I don't mind repairing equipment that's worth repairing, but only for myself
or a few close friends (and not their relatives or neighbors).
They all know better than to suggest me "just looking" at a $9 portable CD
player or $40 VCR.. I just won't.
Have you ever seen one of those posters/signs on a wall, with a big dot and
the message "Hit Head Here"?
You might want to look at repairing consumer goods from a different
perspective.
--
Cheers,
WB
.............
"Jeff Liebermann" <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:2pu6e6l0vdlmqaebk...@4ax.com...
William Sommerwerck
> for dummies, also outsourced.
It's claimed that a high percentage of "defective" products are actually
okay -- the user couldn't figure out how to work them.