Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems

[Arny Krueger]

I'm part of group that is readying two Audio Precision System One Dual
Domain measurement systems for market.

The units have exceptional provenance. They were owned by Stereo Review
Magazine and were the personal tools of Julian Hirsch. They still have
Hachette Publications property stickers on them.

Hachette Filipacchi Media U.S magazine operations, like Ziff Davis, and
indeed Stereo Review, are regrettably no more. We obtained these units from
Hachette as surplus items right before they moved their offices in
Manhattan.

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hachette_Filipacchi_Media_U.S. ,
Hachette's US magazine operations were sold off in May, 2010.

The condition of the equipment is excellent. All of the tests I've run
worked the first time. We have them fully operational and attached to
computers running Windows XP. We believe that we have drivers and I/O cards
that will work with even later versions of Windows. The units are a tiny bit
out of calibration. We intend to run 100% of the diagnostics and have them
entirely nominal before sale.

While not SOTA in terms of distortion residuals, AP S1 systems are still
valuable tools for many current applications due to their excellent
interfaces, good performance, and programmability. We intend to sell them as
turnkey systems - unbox what we send you, plug it in, and go!

If you are interested in purchasing this equipment, please contact me at
arnyk at comcast dot net.

[Phil Allison]

"Arny Krueger"

>
> I'm part of group that is readying two Audio Precision System One Dual
> Domain measurement systems for market.
>
> The units have exceptional provenance. They were owned by Stereo Review
> Magazine and were the personal tools of Julian Hirsch. They still have
> Hachette Publications property stickers on them.

** Has this unit got more value because of its provenance ?

Anyhow - here's a pic of one:

http://www.nessales.com/ebay/13318/Audio%20Precision%20System%20One%20Optical%20IO%20Pic%20(0).JPG


... Phil

[recursor]

On 12/30/2011 11:21 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
> "Arny Krueger"
>>
>> I'm part of group that is readying two Audio Precision System One Dual
>> Domain measurement systems for market.
>>
>> The units have exceptional provenance. They were owned by Stereo Review
>> Magazine and were the personal tools of Julian Hirsch. They still have
>> Hachette Publications property stickers on them.
>
>
> ** Has this unit got more value because of its provenance ?
>

Of course it has, the stickers make it much more accurate...Sheesh,
don't you know anything?

[Phil Allison]

"recursor"

** I imagined it might be Julian Hirsch's aura and sweaty finger prints
that made the difference.

Bit like a Strat that had once belonged to Jimi Hendrix.



.... Phil

[Alan]

In message <DfqdnbP1sJ0Z1mPT...@brightview.co.uk>, recursor
<recu...@recursor.net> wrote

>>
>Of course it has, the stickers make it much more accurate...

but only when used with Russ Andrews cables.
--
Alan
news2009 {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

[recursor]

On 12/31/2011 10:43 AM, Alan wrote:
> In message <DfqdnbP1sJ0Z1mPT...@brightview.co.uk>, recursor
> <recu...@recursor.net> wrote
>>>
>> Of course it has, the stickers make it much more accurate...
>
> but only when used with Russ Andrews cables.

Funny you should say that as the little beauties below have been reduced
to *only* £1503 and they feature that well known technical enhancement
of orthogonal braid. I've just ordered half a dozen of them, they'll go
well with the Hachette Publications property stickers...in fact fuck it,
they won't just go well, they were made for each other.
http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=2137&customer_id=PAA3122123611657HNNULQPHBZIBBHUY

[Alan]

In message <46ednRibWdB-cGPT...@brightview.co.uk>, recursor
<recu...@recursor.net> wrote

>http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&p
>f_id=2137&customer_id=PAA3122123611657HNNULQPHBZIBBHUY


Check out the Deep Cryo Treatment link on that page :)

[recursor]

On 12/31/2011 01:47 PM, Alan wrote:
> In message <46ednRibWdB-cGPT...@brightview.co.uk>, recursor
> <recu...@recursor.net> wrote
>
>> http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&p
>> f_id=2137&customer_id=PAA3122123611657HNNULQPHBZIBBHUY
>
>
> Check out the Deep Cryo Treatment link on that page :)

LMAO
"Russ’s thoughts in previous issues of our Connected magazine, you’ll
know that he advocates the freezing of CDs to improve their sound quality"

It seems you can fool some of the [rich] people enough of the time to
make a good living selling bollocks.

[Woody]

"recursor" <recu...@recursor.net> wrote in message
news:gJednencpZJnimLT...@brightview.co.uk...

I saw a couple in Comet yesterday buying a 1m HDMI cable for £45.
You should have heard the drivel the 'knowledgeable' salesperson
was spouting.

The damage that such people can do to the TV industry is........
well, words fail me. Mind you if they are daft enough to spend so
much (and it was by no means the cheapest) rather than £4.99 at
B&Q then they deserve it.



--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com

[Don Pearce]

On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 14:44:17 -0000, "Woody"
<harro...@ntlworld.spam.com> wrote:

>I saw a couple in Comet yesterday buying a 1m HDMI cable for £45.
>You should have heard the drivel the 'knowledgeable' salesperson
>was spouting.
>
>The damage that such people can do to the TV industry is........
>well, words fail me. Mind you if they are daft enough to spend so
>much (and it was by no means the cheapest) rather than £4.99 at
>B&Q then they deserve it.
>

I bought an HDMI cable in Tottenham Court Road a couple of months ago.
The bloke wanted 19.95, and I said I wouldn't pay that much. He asked
what I would give, and I held out a fiver. He was perfectly happy with
the trade. I should have offered a quid.

d

[John Williamson]

He'd still be mnaking a profit, too, more than likely.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Peter Larsen]

Phil Allison wrote:

>> Of course it has, the stickers make it much more accurate...Sheesh,
>> don't you know anything?

> ** I imagined it might be Julian Hirsch's aura and sweaty finger
> prints that made the difference.

There quite possibly is some extra market value because of it. However

> Bit like a Strat that had once belonged to Jimi Hendrix.

For audiophile grade measurements use them with this:

http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=1564&customer_id=PAA3122123611657HNNULQPHBZIBBHUY

mains cable. Many banks ask you to pay for having money stored in their
system and this mains cable will remedy that problem and thus really be a
saving.

O;-)

> .... Phil

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[William Sommerwerck]

> I bought an HDMI cable in Tottenham Court Road a couple of
> months ago. The bloke wanted 19.95, and I said I wouldn't pay
> that much. He asked what I would give, and I held out a fiver.
> He was perfectly happy with the trade. I should have offered a quid.

My Pioneer Elite Kuro sits some distance from the player. I needed a 20'
HDMI cable. I bought MCM's house-brand cable for about $15. It works
perfectly, as far as I can tell.

[Don Pearce]

I'm sure you'd know instantly if it wasn't working properly.

I wish they would redesign HDMI, though. It suffers from precisely the
same defect as SCART - the cable is too thick and springy, and the
flimsy connector has no detent. Rubbish piece of design.

d

[William Sommerwerck]

"Don Pearce" <sp...@spam.com> wrote in message
news:4eff31aa...@news.eternal-september.org...

> I wish they would redesign HDMI, though. It suffers from precisely the

> same defect as SCART -- the cable is too thick and springy, and the

> flimsy connector has no detent. Rubbish piece of design.

Some are made of limper cable. Not surprisingly, given the thickness, longer
cables tend to be limper, regardless of the material.

I like the lack of a detent. You pull on the cable, and it simply falls out.
You can't cause the display (or other device) to slide or fall over.

[David Looser]

"Don Pearce" <sp...@spam.com> wrote in message
news:4eff31aa...@news.eternal-september.org...
>

> I wish they would redesign HDMI, though. It suffers from precisely the
> same defect as SCART - the cable is too thick and springy, and the
> flimsy connector has no detent. Rubbish piece of design.
>

I entirely agree. I wish they'd retained the vastly superior DVI connector
for HDMI, but I guess its that little bit more expensive.

I don't have any confidence in the long-term reliability of the HDMI
connector and the PCB mounted sockets will be almost impossible to replace.
So I predict that plenty of otherwise perfectly servicable bits of kit will
be scrapped just because the HDMI connectors no longer make good reliable
contact.

David.

[Peter Larsen]

David Looser wrote:

> I don't have any confidence in the long-term reliability of the HDMI
> connector and the PCB mounted sockets will be almost impossible to
> replace. So I predict that plenty of otherwise perfectly servicable
> bits of kit will be scrapped just because the HDMI connectors no
> longer make good reliable contact.

I found some specs for harddisk interface cables, the IDE version is
designed for 5000 operations, the SATA version for 50. Divide by 10 since it
is salesmans claims and you get an intense wish of not removing and
replugging a harddisk cable unless you absolutely MUST.

My reason for the googling for this info was my having to discard a brand
new disk because of a clumsy hand move inside the box breaking the plug on
the disk. Fortunately the disk was empty.

> David

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[recursor]

Decent latching SATA cables are ok, unfortunately a lot of the ones
supplied with mobos or ready built boxes are of the cheap non-latching
variety and some of these are hardly good for one insertion/removal cycle.

[John Robertson]

How do they deal with the mains conductors back to the community
step-down transformer?

I suspect there is money to be mined in fixing the power input to the
high-end fools that buy these power cords.

"What if I can’t remove my mains lead? Cut off the mains cable about 3
inches (7.5cm) from where it enters your equipment and wire on a male
IEC plug as shown. " ROTFLMAO!

For further amusement read the Burn-In extra (only £15) feature because
otherwise you may have to wait over 500 hours to hear any difference
with your new power cord or silver RCA cords!

Fuses 13A made to BS-1362 standards (required by law in the UK for mains
fuses)...reading the notes about these £15.75 (pack of five) fuses that
everyone else sells for £1.25 (pack of four).

---------------------(quote)------------------------
You may notice that we cover the screw on some of our mains cables with
a 'Warranty - Void if Removed' sticker. This is to discourage people
from tampering with the cable in the plug. It's very difficult to work
with and we had a number of instances where people had tried to
de-solder their cables from the plug, ended up with a terrible mess and
sent it back to us to sort out. If you need to reterminate your cables,
we only charge a nominal retermination fee and you keep your warranty.

We appreciate, however that you need to destroy this label when you
replace the fuse with our new Russ Andrews fuses. You will not void your
warranty if you simply replace the fuse. Russ Andrews fuses are supplied
with 'Fitted with Russ Andrews Fuse' stickers to fit over the existing
warranty label. If you replace the fuse and then stick the new label
over the old warranty label, we'll know that you've simply replaced the
fuse if you return the cable for upgrade or repair in the future. It's
also a useful way for you to know which cables you've upgraded with a
better fuse!
------------------------(end quote)---------------

(shaking head sadly)

I'm obviously in the wrong end of things - I offer tech tips to save
people money and to try and teach them how to maintain their toys.

John ;-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

[recursor]

That's why you live in a hovel and Russ Andrews lives in a mansion. :)

[John Robertson]

I can't believe the stuff he puts on his site...

"Upgrade your NAD or Marantz amplifier links

If your integrated amp has separate pre- and power sections connected by
brass or gold plated links between the RCA sockets (eg. NAD and Marantz
amplifiers), improve its performance by upgrading the links.

Our Amp Jumpers made with KIMBER Timbre interconnect are perfect!"

So Marantz doesn't know that silver is a better conductor than gold
jumpers? What is wrong with their engineers? They obviously need to
talkto Russ about improving their amps, get rid of those lousy gold
plated jacks and replace them with silver...now and then you can pull
out the silver polish to deal with the minor nuisance of oxidization
(which, oddly enough, doesn't happen with gold connectors). I couldn't
find the special silver polish though on the site. Must be there
somewhere @ £astronomical. After all non-audiofool silver polish
wouldn't be good enough for these plugs!

Well, time to get to the real world...now where did I put it?

[recursor]

It probably slipped down the back of the sofa. Still if nothing else
Russ has disproved the idea that all the rich are somehow *clever* and
*deserve* their wealth.

[Michael A. Terrell]

I bought a 10' HDMI cable for $3.49 US on Ebay, delivered to move the
Sat receiver in my dad & step mom's bedroom. He was afraid that he or
my step mom would knock it, or the TV off of the chest of drawers. He
was skeptical because the local stores wanted $45 but when I stopped by
to install it, it worked perfectly.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/270822459001


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Alan wrote:
>
> In message <46ednRibWdB-cGPT...@brightview.co.uk>, recursor
> <recu...@recursor.net> wrote
>
> >http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&p
> >f_id=2137&customer_id=PAA3122123611657HNNULQPHBZIBBHUY
>
> Check out the Deep Cryo Treatment link on that page :)

Another 'Snow Job'?

[David Looser]

"William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:jdnark$4np$1...@dont-email.me...

I needed to run an HDMI connection from one room to another, so I bought a
couple of passive HDMI wallplates that simply break-out the HDMI pins to a
couple of IDC blocks which are then interconnected with two runs of Cat5
cable. With a run a about 15m between the wallplates this works flawlessly
with 1080p video.

David.

[Arny Krueger]

"Phil Allison" <phi...@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:9m6vbj...@mid.individual.net...

That looks very much like one of the two units I have been working with. It
is the later model with optical digital I/O. The earlier version is
coax-based and used RCA jacks.

[rrus...@hotmail.com]

The British electrical standards are the dumbest on planet, or at
least the dumbest I have ever run into. Except for the Japanese, who
are combine the worst possible voltage standard with two different
frequencies.

In the US, we have two voltages in (all but really really old)
houses: 120 and 240, although most outlets are 120, the ranges,
clothes dryers and air conditioners are 240. And that 240 is balanced.
If we were SERIOUS audiophiles, we'd have 240 volt four pin dryer
outlets put in our listening rooms and run our power amps on 240.

[Richard Tobin]

In article <a9b8c246-51b9-428d...@24g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,

<rrus...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>If we were SERIOUS audiophiles, we'd have 240 volt four pin dryer
>outlets put in our listening rooms and run our power amps on 240.

If you were a serious audiophile, you would not allow mains
electricity within a mile of your listening room. You would run your
amplifier on lead-acid batteries and your turntable would be a uranium
flywheel.

-- Richard

[Phil Allison]

<rrus...@hotmail.com>

> In the US, we have two voltages in (all but really really old)
> houses: 120 and 240, although most outlets are 120, the ranges,
> clothes dryers and air conditioners are 240. And that 240 is balanced.
> If we were SERIOUS audiophiles, we'd have 240 volt four pin dryer
> outlets put in our listening rooms and run our power amps on 240.

** Only if we were serious AUDIOPHOOLs - that is.

Home hi-fi installations can suffer from earth loop hum and transformer
radiated hum fields - neither of which is fixed by using "balanced power".



... Phil

[Eiron]

On 03/01/2012 00:50, rrus...@hotmail.com wrote:
> The British electrical standards are the dumbest on planet, or at
> least the dumbest I have ever run into.

From what I've seen, they are the best and safest standards of any country.
Just ask any toddler who has tried to poke a screwdriver into an outlet.

What's your problem with it? And how many of your American plugs are
hanging out of the socket with exposed pins and intermittent connections?

--
Eiron.

[Jerry]

"Eiron" <Evelyn....@live.com> wrote in message
news:9mfp00...@mid.individual.net...

: On 03/01/2012 00:50, rrus...@hotmail.com wrote:
: > The British electrical standards are the dumbest on planet,
or at
: > least the dumbest I have ever run into.
:
: From what I've seen, they are the best and safest standards of
any country.
: Just ask any toddler who has tried to poke a screwdriver into
an outlet.

A toddler in the UK "Yeah! This game of sticking things in to
these plastic shapes in the wall is fun, lets do it again!"

A toddler in the USA (120v) "That tingles, not sure that I like
that..."

A toddler in the EU (240v) *flash, bang, wallop* "That hurt
daddy, why is my finger throbbing, why has the TV (or what ever
else is on the circuit) stopped working?"

:
: What's your problem with it? And how many of your American

plugs are
: hanging out of the socket with exposed pins and intermittent
connections?

:

Indeed, the North America attitude to electrical hardware is a
farce (only of the reasons why they are still plagued by high
numbers of electrical fires), but then so is the UK's BS* 1363
standard for plug/sockets, only in the UK -and those countries
that have copied the UK- is the final circuit protection so
designed that it is easy (for the end user) to defeat it either
through ignorance or wilful tampering, thus a device requiring
protection at 3 or 5 amps co so easily end up being actually
protected at 13 amps - or 30 amps in the case of wilful
tampering...
--
Regards, Jerry.

[David Looser]

<rrus...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a9b8c246-51b9-428d...@24g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...

A very large number of countries run their mains supplies at 220-240V, not
just the UK! Electrical standards were not designed for the benefit of
audiophools, but in practice there's nothing wrong with the 230V standard in
this regard. The standard of electrical installations I've seen in the US
are far worse than those normally encountered here. And the high-powered
audio equipment I've seen in the US runs off 120V thus supplies requiring
heavy-guage mains flex. Definitely no improvement on what we have here!

David.

[David Looser]

"Jerry" <mapson...@btinternet.INVALID> wrote

> : Just ask any toddler who has tried to poke a screwdriver into
> an outlet.
>
> A toddler in the UK "Yeah! This game of sticking things in to
> these plastic shapes in the wall is fun, lets do it again!"
>
> A toddler in the USA (120v) "That tingles, not sure that I like
> that..."
>
> A toddler in the EU (240v) *flash, bang, wallop* "That hurt
> daddy, why is my finger throbbing, why has the TV (or what ever
> else is on the circuit) stopped working?"
>

UK mains sockets have shutters, have you not noticed?

> :
> : What's your problem with it? And how many of your American
> plugs are
> : hanging out of the socket with exposed pins and intermittent
> connections?
> :
>
> Indeed, the North America attitude to electrical hardware is a
> farce

Agreed.

> (only of the reasons why they are still plagued by high
> numbers of electrical fires), but then so is the UK's BS* 1363
> standard for plug/sockets, only in the UK -and those countries
> that have copied the UK- is the final circuit protection so
> designed that it is easy (for the end user) to defeat it either
> through ignorance or wilful tampering, thus a device requiring
> protection at 3 or 5 amps co so easily end up being actually
> protected at 13 amps - or 30 amps in the case of wilful
> tampering...
> --

Have you any data to suggest that deaths or injuries are any worse here than
in countries that don't use BS1363 outlets? I was amazed to find in a modern
house in Italy that I stayed in this summer that all the sockets
(unshuttered and each rated at 10A with fuseless plugs) on each floor were
supplied from a single 25A MCB. How is that safer than the situation here?

David.

[Eiron]

On 03/01/2012 10:39, David Looser wrote:
> <rrus...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:a9b8c246-51b9-428d...@24g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
>> The British electrical standards are the dumbest on planet, or at
>> least the dumbest I have ever run into. Except for the Japanese, who
>> are combine the worst possible voltage standard with two different
>> frequencies.
>>
>> In the US, we have two voltages in (all but really really old)
>> houses: 120 and 240, although most outlets are 120, the ranges,
>> clothes dryers and air conditioners are 240. And that 240 is balanced.
>> If we were SERIOUS audiophiles, we'd have 240 volt four pin dryer
>> outlets put in our listening rooms and run our power amps on 240.
>
> A very large number of countries run their mains supplies at 220-240V, not
> just the UK! Electrical standards were not designed for the benefit of
> audiophools, but in practice there's nothing wrong with the 230V standard in
> this regard.

Can I just mention another example of European Union lunacy?
Voltage is standardized at 230v +- a fudge factor so that the UK
can keep to 240v and the rest of Europe can keep 220v with no plans
for any country to adopt 230v. Now that is dumb!

And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....

--
Eiron.

[John Williamson]

Eiron wrote:
> And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
> It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....
>

http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product/Entries/2009/4/20_Folding_Plug_System.html

Problem solved. HTH

[Eiron]

On 03/01/2012 11:15, John Williamson wrote:
> Eiron wrote:
>> And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
>> It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....
>>
> http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product/Entries/2009/4/20_Folding_Plug_System.html
>
>
> Problem solved. HTH

Still not in production?
Does it have a tendency to break and burst into flames?
Designed by a "designer" rather than by an engineer?

--
Eiron.

[David Looser]

"Eiron" <Evelyn....@live.com> wrote in message

news:9mg55i...@mid.individual.net...

>
> Can I just mention another example of European Union lunacy?
> Voltage is standardized at 230v +- a fudge factor so that the UK
> can keep to 240v and the rest of Europe can keep 220v with no plans
> for any country to adopt 230v. Now that is dumb!

I'm not sure it is so dumb
There always was a tolerance range on the UK 240V mains, what happened was
that these tolerance limits were widened and re-centred on 230V. But these
new limits are now EU-wide so any equipment manufactured to these new limits
(230V +/- 10%) is suitable for sale anywhere within the EU.

>
> And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
> It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....
>

I agree, the BS1363 plug is not my favourite design. Some years ago there
was a serious attempt to introduce a EU standard plug & socket, an attempt
that failed because of the NIH (not-invented-here) factor. I rather like the
German 'Shucko' socket and would be happy to see it replace the BS1363
socket here, but can you image the reaction of the Daily Mail readers? :-)

David.

[John Williamson]

Or this:-

http://www.slimplug.com/where.htm

Not *too* expensive, and sufficient for its rated use.

[Jerry]

"David Looser" <david....@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:9mg4nv...@mid.individual.net...
: "Jerry" <mapson...@btinternet.INVALID> wrote

:
: > : Just ask any toddler who has tried to poke a screwdriver
into
: > an outlet.
: >
: > A toddler in the UK "Yeah! This game of sticking things in to
: > these plastic shapes in the wall is fun, lets do it again!"
: >
: > A toddler in the USA (120v) "That tingles, not sure that I
like
: > that..."
: >
: > A toddler in the EU (240v) *flash, bang, wallop* "That hurt
: > daddy, why is my finger throbbing, why has the TV (or what
ever
: > else is on the circuit) stopped working?"
: >
: UK mains sockets have shutters, have you not noticed?

Duh, never! In any case, what happens when this shutter fails, as
can happen, and thus that nice 'safe' electrical outlet becomes
(unknowingly) totally unprotected from such intrusion... Did you
actually bother to read what I said?

: > :

: > : What's your problem with it? And how many of your American
: > plugs are
: > : hanging out of the socket with exposed pins and
intermittent
: > connections?
: > :
: >
: > Indeed, the North America attitude to electrical hardware is
a
: > farce
:
: Agreed.
:
: > (only of the reasons why they are still plagued by high
: > numbers of electrical fires), but then so is the UK's BS*
1363
: > standard for plug/sockets, only in the UK -and those
countries
: > that have copied the UK- is the final circuit protection so
: > designed that it is easy (for the end user) to defeat it
either
: > through ignorance or wilful tampering, thus a device
requiring
: > protection at 3 or 5 amps co so easily end up being actually
: > protected at 13 amps - or 30 amps in the case of wilful
: > tampering...

:
: Have you any data to suggest that deaths or injuries are any

worse here than
: in countries that don't use BS1363 outlets? I was amazed to
find in a modern
: house in Italy that I stayed in this summer that all the
sockets
: (unshuttered and each rated at 10A with fuseless plugs) on each
floor were
: supplied from a single 25A MCB. How is that safer than the
situation here?

:

But then people know that, in the UK appliances could actually be
protected at 30A (with old slow-blow fuse wire) but the person
using the appliance believes that it is protected at the correct
3A. Again I suspect that you didn't actually read (and
understand) what I said...

[Terry Casey]

In article <9mg6a6...@mid.individual.net>,
johnwil...@btinternet.com says...

>
> Eiron wrote:
> > And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
> > It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....
> >
> http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product/Entries/2009/4/20_Folding_Plug_System.html
>
> Problem solved. HTH

I don't think so!

'Click here for folding plug enquiry' leads to

http://www.madeinmind.co.uk/

but the connection times out ...

--

Terry

[Terry Casey]

In article <9mg6rv...@mid.individual.net>,
johnwil...@btinternet.com says...

>
> Eiron wrote:
> > On 03/01/2012 11:15, John Williamson wrote:
> >> Eiron wrote:
> >>> And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
> >>> It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....
> >>>
> >> http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product/Entries/2009/4/20_Folding_Plug_System.html
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Problem solved. HTH
> >
> > Still not in production?
> > Does it have a tendency to break and burst into flames?
> > Designed by a "designer" rather than by an engineer?
> >
> Or this:-
>
> http://www.slimplug.com/where.htm
>

404 Not Found

Have you got any more out of date links that you'd like us to test for
you ...?

--

Terry

[Andy Burns]

John Williamson wrote:

> Eiron wrote:
>
>> And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
>> It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....
>>
> http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product/Entries/2009/4/20_Folding_Plug_System.html
>
> Problem solved. HTH

I doubt that design will ever fly ...

I see the thinplug.com is now in the shops, actually, I wish it wasn't
retractable ...

http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/retrak-eucablestar-retractable-universal-notebook-cable-11083932-pdt.html

[Andy Burns]

Eiron wrote:

> On 03/01/2012 11:15, John Williamson wrote:
>

>> http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product/Entries/2009/4/20_Folding_Plug_System.html

>
> Designed by a "designer" rather than by an engineer?

I think that sums it up, nice idea but ...

[John Williamson]

Go to:-
http://www.slimplug.com/

And you can navigate to it from there, but the direct link fails. Odd...

[Jerry]

"John Williamson" <johnwil...@btinternet.com> wrote in
message news:9mg6rv...@mid.individual.net...

:

Why not use a flat two pin "Euro plug" and travel converter, yes
I know that the travel converter is not exactly flat but it's
slimmer than the UK's BS 1363 plug.
--
Regards, Jerry.

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

Eiron wrote:
>
> Can I just mention another example of European Union lunacy?
> Voltage is standardized at 230v +- a fudge factor so that the UK
> can keep to 240v and the rest of Europe can keep 220v with no plans
> for any country to adopt 230v. Now that is dumb!

No, it makes perfect sense. A long time ago England was 240 volts and
continental Europe was 220 volts, both 50Hz. I don't know when this
was standrdized up until WWII France used 120 volt 60Hz AC.

The UK used several systems, and a friend of mine who traveled to London
in the 1970's found that there were four different electrical systems in use
in various parts of the city. By that time they had been standardized to
240 volts 50Hz, but the older plugs and lightbulbs (different ones for
different systems) remained.

Appliances were sold without plugs well into the 1990s.

Still, you had to buy an appliance for 220 volts or 240 volts. Devices used
in both places had a switch on the back.

The new EU standard of 230 volts is not one of exactly 230 volts, like the
old 220 or 240 ones were, it's a requirment that an electrical device sold in
the EU can operate without adjustment from 220-240 volts (more like 210-250)

There were plans of slowly shifting everyone in the EU to 230 volts so there
could be a shared electical grid, but with the economic problems currently
hapening, it would be too much to predict the lights will stay on at all.
:-)

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(

[Dave Liquorice]

On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 11:24:18 -0000, David Looser wrote:

> There always was a tolerance range on the UK 240V mains, what happened
> was that these tolerance limits were widened and re-centred on 230V. But
> these new limits are now EU-wide so any equipment manufactured to these
> new limits (230V +/- 10%) is suitable for sale anywhere within the EU.

The proposed 230v +/- 10% never happened and isn't likely to. The
current tolerance is 230v -6% +10% (216 to 253v)

> German 'Shucko' socket and would be happy to see it replace the BS1363
> socket here,

A Shucko plug is not a lot smaller, if it is at all, than a 13A plug.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

David Looser wrote:

> I agree, the BS1363 plug is not my favourite design. Some years ago there
> was a serious attempt to introduce a EU standard plug & socket, an attempt
> that failed because of the NIH (not-invented-here) factor. I rather like the
> German 'Shucko' socket and would be happy to see it replace the BS1363
> socket here, but can you image the reaction of the Daily Mail readers? :-)

Shucko plugs have grounding problems. They rely on the plug being all the
way in (ground is connected AFTER the mains) and an easily bent spring in
the outlet.

Much better is a 230 volt version of the US 3 prong plug, two round pins
like the standard EU ungrounded plug, with a slightly longer ground pin
in the center and below them like this:

O O
O

The advantage is that unless you work at it, the ground pin makes contact
first.

For "double insulated" devices that do not come with a ground pin, the standard
EU 2 pin plug fits fine.

There is no reason that the outlets could not be sold with shutters and or
fuses, or the fuse holders built into the plug body.

[Graham.]

It's not odd, it ends in html not htm.
I am less confident about posting this to five groups, let's see.


--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%

[Jerry]

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <g...@mendelson.com> wrote in message
news:slrnjg5qr...@cable.mendelson.com...

<snip>
: The UK used several systems, and a friend of mine who traveled

to London
: in the 1970's found that there were four different electrical
systems in use
: in various parts of the city. By that time they had been
standardized to
: 240 volts 50Hz, but the older plugs and lightbulbs (different
ones for
: different systems) remained.

Hmm, surely the 1970s were a tad late for different voltages
(certainly for London), the national grid had been started long
before WW2 and was complete not long after, are you are not
thinking of the different designs of electrical circuits and
sockets in use or perhaps a different time period?

I suppose that some building with their own (derived/generated)
power supplies might have had (still have) 'odd' systems to suit
their own needs, an exception rather than the rule.
--
Regards, Jerry.

[Eiron]

That looks good. The only moving part is the plastic earth plug so for
non earthed equipment it will be perfect. And when the plastic pin breaks
you can just use a screwdriver to open the shutters. :-)

--
Eiron.

[Davey]

On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 11:59:03 +0000 (UTC)
"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <g...@mendelson.com> wrote:

> David Looser wrote:
>
> > I agree, the BS1363 plug is not my favourite design. Some years ago
> > there was a serious attempt to introduce a EU standard plug &
> > socket, an attempt that failed because of the NIH
> > (not-invented-here) factor. I rather like the German 'Shucko'
> > socket and would be happy to see it replace the BS1363 socket here,
> > but can you image the reaction of the Daily Mail readers? :-)
>
> Shucko plugs have grounding problems. They rely on the plug being all
> the way in (ground is connected AFTER the mains) and an easily bent
> spring in the outlet.
>
> Much better is a 230 volt version of the US 3 prong plug, two round
> pins like the standard EU ungrounded plug, with a slightly longer
> ground pin in the center and below them like this:
>
> O O
> O
>
> The advantage is that unless you work at it, the ground pin makes
> contact first.
>

Why have the ground pin below the power pins? If anything falls on a
partially inserted plug, then it will hit the power pins and produce a
short, whereas if the ground pin was on top, it would be the one
that was hit, and would be safer. It might even just bounce off with no
sound and light effects.
During my time in the US, I saw both methods used indiscriminately,
although the way you show was, oddly, the official one.
--
Davey.

[Andy Burns]

Bit more info on their website, turn your speakers off for the video
though ...

http://www.thinplug.com/thinplug/thinplug_video/1

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

Jerry wrote:

>
> Hmm, surely the 1970s were a tad late for different voltages
> (certainly for London), the national grid had been started long
> before WW2 and was complete not long after, are you are not
> thinking of the different designs of electrical circuits and
> sockets in use or perhaps a different time period?

That was it. It was all 240v 50Hz, but the sockets were still the old ones.

By the time I first got there in 1983, I only saw the ones that are now
in use, but anything electrical was sold without a plug.

[Arny Krueger]

<rrus...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a9b8c246-51b9-428d...@24g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
> The British electrical standards are the dumbest on planet, or at
> least the dumbest I have ever run into. Except for the Japanese, who
> are combine the worst possible voltage standard with two different
> frequencies.
>
> In the US, we have two voltages in (all but really really old)
> houses: 120 and 240, although most outlets are 120, the ranges,
> clothes dryers and air conditioners are 240. And that 240 is balanced.
> If we were SERIOUS audiophiles, we'd have 240 volt four pin dryer
> outlets put in our listening rooms and run our power amps on 240.

Some modern power amps will produce appreciably more power when fed 240 as
opposed to 120. It's all about what you can pass through a 20 amp fuse. That
all said, this would be more important on the test bench amplifying test
tones, as opposed to in the listening room amplifying music due to the
dynamic and multitone nature of music.

[Arny Krueger]

"David Looser" <david....@btinternet.com> wrote in message

news:9mg468...@mid.individual.net...

All I know is that after returning to the US from a year's stay in Germany,
I was a little bit afraid every time I plugged anything in, due to the ease
with which one's fingers slide down the plug and touch the contacts.

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <jduot1$g1g$1...@dont-email.me>, Jerry

<mapson...@btinternet.INVALID> wrote:

> "David Looser" <david....@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:9mg4nv...@mid.individual.net...
> : "Jerry" <mapson...@btinternet.INVALID> wrote
> :
> : > : Just ask any toddler who has tried to poke a screwdriver
> into
> : > an outlet.
> : >
> : > A toddler in the UK "Yeah! This game of sticking things in to these
> : > plastic shapes in the wall is fun, lets do it again!"
> : >
> : > A toddler in the USA (120v) "That tingles, not sure that I
> like
> : > that..."
> : >
> : > A toddler in the EU (240v) *flash, bang, wallop* "That hurt daddy,
> : > why is my finger throbbing, why has the TV (or what
> ever
> : > else is on the circuit) stopped working?"
> : >
> : UK mains sockets have shutters, have you not noticed?

> Duh, never! In any case, what happens when this shutter fails, as can
> happen,

Almost anything "can" happen. But in reality how often does it? I can't
recall ever having the shutters on a UK standard mains socket fail open on
any I've used. What statistics do you have for how often they fail?

> : Have you any data to suggest that deaths or injuries are any
> worse here than
> : in countries that don't use BS1363 outlets?

> But then people know that, in the UK appliances could actually be
> protected at 30A (with old slow-blow fuse wire) but the person using
> the appliance believes that it is protected at the correct 3A.

How often is that the case? I've not come across anyone using fuse wire (of
any rating) to replace the fuse cart in a mains plug for decades. is that
what you are referring to? Again, what is the statistical evidence for this
being a significant problem?

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <9mg6rv...@mid.individual.net>, John Williamson

<johnwil...@btinternet.com> writes:
>Eiron wrote:
>> On 03/01/2012 11:15, John Williamson wrote:
>>> Eiron wrote:
>>>> And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
>>>> It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....
>>>>
>>>
>>>http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product/Entries/2009/4/20_Folding_Plug_Sy
>>>stem.html
>>>
>>>
>>> Problem solved. HTH
>> Still not in production?
>> Does it have a tendency to break and burst into flames?
>> Designed by a "designer" rather than by an engineer?

I think this design has been given a very hard time. The criticisms may
be valid, but let them try to sort out the problems, rather than being
nasty about the idea. I think there's an awful lot of
NIH/I-wish-I'd-thought-of-that in the criticisms.

>>
>Or this:-
>
>http://www.slimplug.com/where.htm
>
>Not *too* expensive, and sufficient for its rated use.
>

I have two, and they work well. (Still bulkier than the above though.)
I'm still a bit puzzled, however, that they were allowed to sell them
with a two-pin (actually socket) to three adapter.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage
makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter

[Jerry]

"Jim Lesurf" <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote in message
news:524bd4a...@audiomisc.co.uk...
: In article <jduot1$g1g$1...@dont-email.me>, Jerry

Not very often, just as kids in areas that do not use the UK's
BS1363 plug/socket don't tend to poke things into other types of
sockets, why because they are *taught* not to whilst being
supervised, of course that is to hard for average UK parents to
manage so the state has to hold their hands so to speak!


: recall ever having the shutters on a UK standard mains socket

fail open on
: any I've used. What statistics do you have for how often they
fail?

None, just personal experience of having to change such sockets,
either fixed or trailing (the same safety concerns exist with
both).

:
: > : Have you any data to suggest that deaths or injuries are

any
: > worse here than
: > : in countries that don't use BS1363 outlets?
:
: > But then people know that, in the UK appliances could
actually be
: > protected at 30A (with old slow-blow fuse wire) but the
person using
: > the appliance believes that it is protected at the correct
3A.
:
: How often is that the case? I've not come across anyone using
fuse wire (of
: any rating) to replace the fuse cart in a mains plug for
decades. is that
: what you are referring to?

No, think metal bolt/rod or similar, that is the same diameter as
the BS fuse and you might get the idea. If an unthinking idiot
can do it, they probably will, I have seen many silly things done
to BS1363 plugs that I have rarely seen/heard happening to a
fuse/breaker panel because even such idiots tend to draw the line
if they need to get more than a (pen-)knife from the kitchen
draw.

Again, what is the statistical evidence for this
: being a significant problem?

:

Why do you think the law was changed in the UK so that all (non
wholesale) domestic, free standing, electrical equipment has to
now come pre-fitted with a BS1363 plug and correct fuse? Clue, it
wasn't for the purchasers convenience...
--
Regards, Jerry.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <9mg6r1...@mid.individual.net>, David Looser

<david....@btinternet.com> writes:
>"Eiron" <Evelyn....@live.com> wrote in message
>news:9mg55i...@mid.individual.net...

[]

>There always was a tolerance range on the UK 240V mains, what happened was
>that these tolerance limits were widened and re-centred on 230V. But these
>new limits are now EU-wide so any equipment manufactured to these new limits
>(230V +/- 10%) is suitable for sale anywhere within the EU.
>>
>> And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
>> It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....
>>
>I agree, the BS1363 plug is not my favourite design. Some years ago there

It is far too big for most of the devices currently on it, yes - and
also, the three ratings for the matching fuse (BS1362) widely available
are far too high: 3, 5, and 13A. (Even 1A - which you _can_ get in
BS1362, but you don't half have to hunt for it - is too high for most
electronic appliances.) IMO, the fact that the plugs are fused actually
gives a _false_ sense of security, _because_ the fuse ratings are so
high; all that fuse can effectively protect is the mains lead (or power
cord, as it's called in US) itself.

>was a serious attempt to introduce a EU standard plug & socket, an attempt
>that failed because of the NIH (not-invented-here) factor. I rather like the
>German 'Shucko' socket and would be happy to see it replace the BS1363
>socket here, but can you image the reaction of the Daily Mail readers? :-)

I feel the same, but I suspect it's because it's what I grew up with (in
British army quarters in Germany, which used German fixtures and
fittings). [I don't think there's a "c" in it, by the way. Oh, hang on -
I think there is, but before the h not the k.]
>
>David.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@srv1.howhill.co.uk>, Dave

Liquorice <allsortsn...@howhill.co.uk> writes:
>On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 11:24:18 -0000, David Looser wrote:

[]

>> German 'Shucko' socket and would be happy to see it replace the BS1363
>> socket here,
>
>A Shucko plug is not a lot smaller, if it is at all, than a 13A plug.
>

Yes, but it somehow _feels_ smaller.

It also - one of the major disadvantages of the common forms of the
BS1363 one, and for some reason rarely mentioned in discussions like
these - doesn't naturally settle, when unplugged, into a form that's
hazardous to bare feet (-:! [The Schuko _is_ available with side cable
entry, but even those ones don't tend to lie pins up.]

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <slrnjg5ra...@cable.mendelson.com>, Geoffrey S.
Mendelson <g...@mendelson.com> writes:
[]

>Shucko plugs have grounding problems. They rely on the plug being all the
>way in (ground is connected AFTER the mains) and an easily bent spring in
>the outlet.

Hmm, I don't remember seeing the spring ever bent (it's quite a
substantial piece of metal), though I can see it _could_ happen,
especially with abuse.

As for which connects first, I can't say for sure, but I used to find
the sockets - in which the whole socket is recessed - far more
reassuring than the British flush ones, in which one could touch the
pins; OK, the British one was redesigned such that the pins have to be
shrouded, but that happened much later, and I can certainly remember
when unshrouded was the norm (sometime in the 1970s?). [The shrouding
must reduce the cross-sectional area, too, though (a) see earlier
comments about the ratings being far more than required for most
appliances anyway, (b) I was once told that it is the contact area
rather than the cross-sectional which is likely to be a problem.
(Thinking about the wire attached, that's probably true.)]

>
>Much better is a 230 volt version of the US 3 prong plug, two round pins
>like the standard EU ungrounded plug, with a slightly longer ground pin
>in the center and below them like this:
>
> O O
> O
>
>The advantage is that unless you work at it, the ground pin makes contact
>first.

[]
I was quite impressed the first time I saw what I think of as the
"Dutch" design: a bit like the Schuko, but the earth is actually a
socket in the plug, and a pin in the socket! Thus if you try to plug in
a plug that doesn't have the socket, it won't go in!

[Jerry]

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6...@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote in
message news:u9FLCOgo...@soft255.demon.co.uk...

[re the BS 1363 plug ]
<snip>
: must reduce the cross-sectional area, too, though (a) see

earlier
: comments about the ratings being far more than required for
most
: appliances anyway,

But the contact pins are not really over size, remember that
their maximum current rating has to be 30A, not 13A.

: >
: >Much better is a 230 volt version of the US 3 prong plug, two

round pins
: >like the standard EU ungrounded plug, with a slightly longer
ground pin
: >in the center and below them like this:
: >
: > O O
: > O
: >
: >The advantage is that unless you work at it, the ground pin
makes contact
: >first.
: []
: I was quite impressed the first time I saw what I think of as
the
: "Dutch" design: a bit like the Schuko, but the earth is
actually a
: socket in the plug, and a pin in the socket! Thus if you try to
plug in
: a plug that doesn't have the socket, it won't go in!

Yes, but just think about some idiot terminating the wires in the
wall plate incorrectly...
--
Regards, Jerry.

[J G Miller]

On Tuesday, January 3rd, 2012, at 18:57:44h +0000, J P Gilliver wrote:

> I was quite impressed the first time I saw what I think of as the
> "Dutch" design: a bit like the Schuko, but the earth is actually a
> socket in the plug, and a pin in the socket! Thus if you try to plug in
> a plug that doesn't have the socket, it won't go in!

As far as I am aware that design was not created in the Netherlands but
is in fact the design of the French and is "NF" (la norme francaise)

<http://www.marque-nf.COM/>

It is the equivalent of BSI kitemark branding.

This design of round three pin plug was adopted by France of course,
and also Belgium and the Netherlands.

Thus round pin plugs on equipment sold in Europe have both the
earth pin socket on the plug and the side earth pin springs to
enable them to be used in France, Benelux, and Germany and other
states.

And to be different being an "insular" nation, the Swiss have
something different completely.

[John Williamson]

So do the Italians. At least the Swiss one is polarised, the Italian
plug will fit in the socket either way round, so you never really know
which wire is live.

[Scott]

On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 20:09:01 +0000 (UTC), J G Miller <mil...@yoyo.ORG>
wrote:

>On Tuesday, January 3rd, 2012, at 18:57:44h +0000, J P Gilliver wrote:
>
>> I was quite impressed the first time I saw what I think of as the
>> "Dutch" design: a bit like the Schuko, but the earth is actually a
>> socket in the plug, and a pin in the socket! Thus if you try to plug in
>> a plug that doesn't have the socket, it won't go in!

But no fuse. I like the idea of putting the fuse in the plug so if
one appliance fails you don't 'fuse' the whole circuit (though with
RCDs I'm not sure that still applies).

[Max Demian]

"Eiron" <Evelyn....@live.com> wrote in message

news:9mgajo...@mid.individual.net...

If it breaks off inside the socket you will just have to use the same socket
all the time.

--
Max Demian

[Max Demian]

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <g...@mendelson.com> wrote in message

news:slrnjg610...@cable.mendelson.com...

> Jerry wrote:
>> Hmm, surely the 1970s were a tad late for different voltages
>> (certainly for London), the national grid had been started long
>> before WW2 and was complete not long after, are you are not
>> thinking of the different designs of electrical circuits and
>> sockets in use or perhaps a different time period?
>
> That was it. It was all 240v 50Hz, but the sockets were still the old
> ones.
>
> By the time I first got there in 1983, I only saw the ones that are now
> in use, but anything electrical was sold without a plug.

That was so Curry's could charge you an extra £1 for the plug. Or drag the
equipment round to Woolworth's and get one for 50p.

--
Max Demian

[The Other Mike]

On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 00:53:58 +0000 (UTC), ric...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
(Richard Tobin) wrote:
>
>If you were a serious audiophile, you would not allow mains
>electricity within a mile of your listening room. You would run your
>amplifier on lead-acid batteries and your turntable would be a uranium
>flywheel.

Osmium would be a better choice for a turntable flywheel.


--

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <9mh6a4...@mid.individual.net>, John Williamson
<johnwil...@btinternet.com> writes:
[]

>So do the Italians. At least the Swiss one is polarised, the Italian
>plug will fit in the socket either way round, so you never really know
>which wire is live.
>

That's another thing: I assume anything is until told otherwise. Most
(all I think) equipment that came with Schuko plugs had two-pole mains
switches; the penny-pinching of only a single pole always seemed
dangerous to me.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <slrnjg5qr...@cable.mendelson.com>, Geoffrey S.

Mendelson <g...@mendelson.com> writes:
>Eiron wrote:
>>
>> Can I just mention another example of European Union lunacy?
>> Voltage is standardized at 230v +- a fudge factor so that the UK
>> can keep to 240v and the rest of Europe can keep 220v with no plans
>> for any country to adopt 230v. Now that is dumb!
>
>No, it makes perfect sense. A long time ago England was 240 volts and
>continental Europe was 220 volts, both 50Hz. I don't know when this
>was standrdized up until WWII France used 120 volt 60Hz AC.

(Are you sure? I thought their TV standards - even the early ones - were
50Hz-related, which would not be a good idea if they really had 60Hz
mains.)

>
>The UK used several systems, and a friend of mine who traveled to London
>in the 1970's found that there were four different electrical systems in use
>in various parts of the city. By that time they had been standardized to
>240 volts 50Hz, but the older plugs and lightbulbs (different ones for
>different systems) remained.

Your friend sounds confused. The 240/50 was standardised a long time
before 1970, and the various plugs and bulbs had been running on 240/50
for some decades by then.

There _had_ been assorted sized plugs with three (round) pins, but the
different sizes were purely for current (2A - rare, mainly in shop
windows - for lighting, and 5, 10, and 15A for other appliances), they
all ran on 240/50.

As for bulbs, the four main types - large and small bayonet, and large
and small Edison screw - had all been on 240/50 since well before 1970.
Large bayonet was almost universal anyway; large Edison screw being the
norm in most of western Europe. The bayonet fitting - especially with
Bakelite and even most later thermosetting plastics - tends to become
brittle and bits break off with the continuous heat produced by a
lightbulb; nevertheless, it is still the overwhelmingly commonest
fitting.

>
>Appliances were sold without plugs well into the 1990s.
>
>Still, you had to buy an appliance for 220 volts or 240 volts. Devices used
>in both places had a switch on the back.

Or a tapping you moved (on a transformer, or dropper resistor, though
those were declining).

>
>The new EU standard of 230 volts is not one of exactly 230 volts, like the
>old 220 or 240 ones were, it's a requirment that an electrical device sold in
>the EU can operate without adjustment from 220-240 volts (more like 210-250)
>
>There were plans of slowly shifting everyone in the EU to 230 volts so there
>could be a shared electical grid, but with the economic problems currently
>hapening, it would be too much to predict the lights will stay on at all.
>:-)
>
>Geoff.
>

Indeed. Britain is somewhat different there anyway - the trans-channel
interconnectors are actually at DC (and I believe longer cables, such as
those to Scandinavia if there are any, are too); there are rectification
plants, I think one being in or near Hawkinge. (Not sure how they
convert it back to AC.) [I've also been told that, despite the public
being told it is bidirectional because peak demand occurs at different
times as we take our main meals at different times, in practice it has
never operated in the supply-power-from-Britain-to-France direction,
other than for test purposes. Whether this is true I don't know.]

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <VtedndoAX_2Sk57S...@giganews.com>,

Arny Krueger <ar...@cocmast.net> wrote:
> All I know is that after returning to the US from a year's stay in
> Germany, I was a little bit afraid every time I plugged anything in,
> due to the ease with which one's fingers slide down the plug and touch
> the contacts.

That's impossible as the pins have insulation down most of their length -
only the end part makes contact. And in any case most UK socket outlets
have switches. Decent plugs have a skirt which would prevent your fingers
slipping towards the pins anyway - only cheap ones not.

--
*I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it *

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 23:59:34 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

> Indeed. Britain is somewhat different there anyway - the trans-channel
> interconnectors are actually at DC

Correct.

> [I've also been told that, despite the public being told it is
> bidirectional because peak demand occurs at different times as we take
> our main meals at different times, in practice it has never operated in
> the supply-power-from-Britain-to-France direction, other than for test
> purposes. Whether this is true I don't know.]

Un true. In late November when there was a great big high pressure
over europe and there for naff all wind both the continental
interconnects were maxed out exporting power during the day. We just
burnt a bit more coal to provide that power. Conversly the last few
days has seen us importing from the continent, cheap, french nuke
power...

--
Cheers
Dave.

[J G Miller]

On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 23:59:34 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

> the trans-channel interconnectors are actually at DC
> (and I believe longer cables, such as those to Scandinavia
> if there are any, are too)

Here is a useful map of HVDC interconnections.

<http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/HVDC_Europe_annotated.svg>

RED existing

GREEN under construction

BLUE tentative, plans provisional

Scotland could be linked to Iceland!

[David Looser]

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6...@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote in message

news:cRmH5alm...@soft255.demon.co.uk...

> In message <slrnjg5qr...@cable.mendelson.com>, Geoffrey S. Mendelson
> <g...@mendelson.com> writes:
>>Eiron wrote:
>>>
>>> Can I just mention another example of European Union lunacy?
>>> Voltage is standardized at 230v +- a fudge factor so that the UK
>>> can keep to 240v and the rest of Europe can keep 220v with no plans
>>> for any country to adopt 230v. Now that is dumb!
>>
>>No, it makes perfect sense. A long time ago England was 240 volts and
>>continental Europe was 220 volts, both 50Hz. I don't know when this
>>was standrdized up until WWII France used 120 volt 60Hz AC.
>
> (Are you sure? I thought their TV standards - even the early ones - were
> 50Hz-related, which would not be a good idea if they really had 60Hz
> mains.)
>>

Indeed, French TV standards were all based on a 50Hz field rate. (the French
had a 441-line transmitter operating from the Eiffel Tower before the war,
famously taken over by the Germans and operated by them for the duration.
After the war they went one better than everybody else and adopted an
819-line standard. But colour transmissions (SECAM of course) were on
625-lines. The 819 line standard was finally abandoned in the 1980s ).

In the 1950s French mains, at least in some parts of the country, was still
at 110V or thereabouts, but at 50Hz. I'm not sure when they changed to 220V
but certainly by the 1980s French mains was standardised on 220V/50Hz.

David.

[David Looser]

"Jerry" <mapson...@btinternet.INVALID> wrote

>
> Not very often, just as kids in areas that do not use the UK's
> BS1363 plug/socket don't tend to poke things into other types of
> sockets, why because they are *taught* not to whilst being
> supervised, of course that is to hard for average UK parents to
> manage so the state has to hold their hands so to speak!
>

And with that paragraph you have blown any credibility you might have hoped
to acquire!

David.

[Dave Platt]

>>If you were a serious audiophile, you would not allow mains
>>electricity within a mile of your listening room. You would run your
>>amplifier on lead-acid batteries and your turntable would be a uranium
>>flywheel.

>Osmium would be a better choice for a turntable flywheel.

... with a turntable plinth made of neutronium... properly flinched,
of course.

--
Dave Platt <dpl...@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

[David Looser]

"John Williamson" <johnwil...@btinternet.com> wrote

>
> So do the Italians. At least the Swiss one is polarised, the Italian plug
> will fit in the socket either way round, so you never really know which
> wire is live.
>

I was singularly unimpressed with Italian mains safety. The 10A plug has 3
thin pins with no support for the plug other than that provided by the pins,
so the plugs tend to hang half-out of the socket due to the weight of the
flex. No shutters, no plug-top fuses and in the (modern) installation I saw
large numbers of sockets were all wired to a single fuse or circuit breaker
of significantly higher rating that of the plug & socket.

David.

[David Looser]

"The Other Mike" <rootpa...@somewhereorother.com> wrote in message
news:g837g7dqh2odo5shh...@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 00:53:58 +0000 (UTC), ric...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
> (Richard Tobin) wrote:
>>
>>If you were a serious audiophile, you would not allow mains
>>electricity within a mile of your listening room. You would run your
>>amplifier on lead-acid batteries and your turntable would be a uranium
>>flywheel.
>

In the 1920s and 1930s many "audiophiles" did indeed run their amplifiers
and radio receivers on lead-acid batteries as it was believed to be
impossible to make mains operated equipment totally hum-free (of course
those who lived in rural areas often didn't have the choice).

The original Western Electric cinema sound equipment used lead-acid
batteries for the exciter lamp and the early stages of the amplifier. Dual
batteries were provided so that one set could be on charge whilst the other
was in use.

David.

[Terry Casey]

In article <9mifii...@mid.individual.net>,
david....@btinternet.com says...

In Italy, in 1964, a friend found that his electric razor wouldn't work,
so he switched it to 110V. Problem solved!

When he finished shaving, he complained his razor seemed to be getting
unusually hot. I looked up at the nearest light bulb and noted that it
said 130V!

--

Terry

[Terry Casey]

In article <nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@srv1.howhill.co.uk>,
allsortsn...@howhill.co.uk says...

Yes. A consequence of Merkel's knee-jerk reaction to the Japanese
tsunami by shutting down the nuclear plant and getting caught with her
knickers down when the lack of wind stopped all the windmills. I think
it was the first time that the UK had been a net exporter of
electricity.

Take a look here:

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

Look at the graph for November (bottom right).

I wonder how Germany will fare if we get a repeat performance but with
much lower temperatures all over Europe so that all other countries need
all of their energy to supply their own needs?

--

Terry

[Jerry]

"David Looser" <david....@btinternet.com> wrote in message

news:9mifkv...@mid.individual.net...
: "Jerry" <mapson...@btinternet.INVALID> wrote

:

Care to explain why you think that, or are you more interested in
gratuitous effect?
--
Regards, Jerry.

[Jerry]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:524c03e...@davenoise.co.uk...
: In article <VtedndoAX_2Sk57S...@giganews.com>,

: Arny Krueger <ar...@cocmast.net> wrote:
: > All I know is that after returning to the US from a year's
stay in
: > Germany, I was a little bit afraid every time I plugged
anything in,
: > due to the ease with which one's fingers slide down the plug
and touch
: > the contacts.
:
: That's impossible as the pins have insulation down most of
their length -
: only the end part makes contact. And in any case most UK socket
outlets
: have switches. Decent plugs have a skirt which would prevent
your fingers
: slipping towards the pins anyway - only cheap ones not.

:

Arny Krueger doesn't give a date for his experiences of UK
electrical installations, it *is* quite possible that he
experienced all he suggests, it has only been since the
late/early '80s that pins have been shrouded, like-wise plugs
having finger stops whilst un-switched sockets are actually very
common than Mr Plowman suggests, especially in 'to a price' built
housing, such as local authority, starter and MOD stock or were
the idea is to discourage disconnection of the appliances, such
as fridges, freezers or VCRs etc.

So far from being "impossible", even more so considering the
number of older and thus 'unprotected' plugs that must still be
in existence and use.
--
Regards, Jerry.

[Jerry]

"David Looser" <david....@btinternet.com> wrote in message

news:9mifvp...@mid.individual.net...

<snip>
: I was singularly unimpressed with Italian mains safety. The 10A

plug has 3
: thin pins with no support for the plug other than that provided
by the pins,
: so the plugs tend to hang half-out of the socket due to the
weight of the
: flex. No shutters, no plug-top fuses and in the (modern)
installation I saw
: large numbers of sockets were all wired to a single fuse or
circuit breaker
: of significantly higher rating that of the plug & socket.

:

But how is that any different to some idiot in the UK bridging
out the fuse in a BS1363 plug and then using 3A cable to string a
large number of trailing sockets together, a prospect that has
increased since the introduction of "Part P" in the UK
(especially in hazardous areas such as wet areas and kitchens).

Perhaps you might care to place your comments about Italian
electrical safety into some perspective, if it really is as
dangerous as you claim, would you like to cite a reference for
the number of electrical fires caused by such instillation
practises?

Only the ill-informed or idiots (those without common sense) make
something unsafe. As long as the rating of the socket or
conductor is not exceeded then there is no problem surely. I note
that you failed to specify the cross sectional dimension of
conductor used in these Italian instillations...
--
Regards, Jerry.

[JW]

On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 23:27:13 +0000 The Other Mike
<rootpa...@somewhereorother.com> wrote in Message id:
<g837g7dqh2odo5shh...@4ax.com>:

How about carving a flywheel from a black hole?
(Getting it rotating may be problematic, though...)

[Terry Casey]

In article <cRmH5alm...@soft255.demon.co.uk>,
G6...@soft255.demon.co.uk says...

>
> In message <slrnjg5qr...@cable.mendelson.com>, Geoffrey S.
> Mendelson <g...@mendelson.com> writes:
> >
> >The UK used several systems, and a friend of mine who traveled to London
> >in the 1970's found that there were four different electrical systems in use
> >in various parts of the city. By that time they had been standardized to
> >240 volts 50Hz, but the older plugs and lightbulbs (different ones for
> >different systems) remained.
>
> Your friend sounds confused. The 240/50 was standardised a long time
> before 1970, and the various plugs and bulbs had been running on 240/50
> for some decades by then.
>

I remember a major upgrade taking place in West Ham to upgrade the
distribution network from 215V AC to the standard 240V while I was at
school there in the late 50s.

Nearby Ilford still had 200V DC, a hangover from when Ilford town
council generated 600V DC for its tramways and obviously found it
convenient to stick to DC for domestic supplies.

When it was converted to 240V AC I do not know but there was no evidence
of anything remotely DC connected when I moved there in the early 70s.

--

Terry

[Jerry]

"Jerry" <mapson...@btinternet.INVALID> wrote in message
news:je1bnf$8id$4...@dont-email.me...
:
<snip>
:

: Arny Krueger doesn't give a date for his experiences of UK
: electrical installations, it *is* quite possible that he
: experienced all he suggests, it has only been since the
: late/early '80s that pins have been shrouded, like-wise plugs

Oops, late '70s/early 80s...

[Jerry]

"brightside S9" <address@replyto_is_not.invalid> wrote in message
news:um98g795up4huietk...@4ax.com...
: On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 02:41:21 +0000 (UTC), J G Miller
<mil...@yoyo.ORG>
: wrote:
:
<snip>
: >
: >Scotland could be linked to Iceland!
:
: Getting ready for independance don't you know.
:

That figures, two economic basket cases...

[David Looser]

"Jerry" <mapson...@btinternet.INVALID> wrote in message

news:je1bne$8id$2...@dont-email.me...

You have demonstrated to those who were not already aware of it that you
have precisely zero knowledge or experience of bringing up children, and
that you are not put of by your total lack of knowledge of a subject in
giving us the "benefit" of your uninformed opinion of it.

David.

[Terry Casey]

In article <4v-dnX4-PdhWep_S...@brightview.co.uk>,
usenet....@adslpipe.co.uk says...

>
> John Williamson wrote:
>
> > Eiron wrote:
> >
> >> And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
> >> It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....
> >>
> > http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product/Entries/2009/4/20_Folding_Plug_System.html
> >
> > Problem solved. HTH
>
> I doubt that design will ever fly ...
>
> I see the thinplug.com is now in the shops, actually, I wish it wasn't
> retractable ...
>
> http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/retrak-eucablestar-retractable-universal-notebook-cable-11083932-pdt.html

A bit late in the day, perhaps, with so many laptops now using earthed
'clover leaf' connectors?

I must admit I much prefer the figure-of-eight connector. By the time
you take the much smaller cross section of the cable into consideration,
it makes the whole thing much more compact.

Also, I have an even more compact cable fitted with a 2-pin Euro plug
for continental excursions ...

--

Terry

[recursor]

On 01/03/2012 04:04 PM, Jim Lesurf wrote:
>
> Almost anything "can" happen. But in reality how often does it?

Every time?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

[Terry Casey]

In article <9mg7vn...@mid.individual.net>,
johnwil...@btinternet.com says...
>
> Terry Casey wrote:
> > In article <9mg6rv...@mid.individual.net>,
> > johnwil...@btinternet.com says...
> >> Eiron wrote:

> >>> On 03/01/2012 11:15, John Williamson wrote:
> >>>> Eiron wrote:
> >>>>> And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
> >>>>> It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....
> >>>>>
> >>>> http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product/Entries/2009/4/20_Folding_Plug_System.html
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Problem solved. HTH

> >>> Still not in production?
> >>> Does it have a tendency to break and burst into flames?
> >>> Designed by a "designer" rather than by an engineer?
> >>>
> >> Or this:-
> >>
> >> http://www.slimplug.com/where.htm
> >>
> >
> > 404 Not Found
> >
> > Have you got any more out of date links that you'd like us to test for
> > you ...?
> >
> Go to:-
> http://www.slimplug.com/
>
> And you can navigate to it from there, but the direct link fails. Odd...

Funny that it has a metal earth pin but is only available with a figure-
of-eight connector/cable - see my comments about this up-thread.

I note that a cloverleaf adaptor is mentioned on the site but no details
are available, including how to buy it!

Can a 2-pin to 3-pin adaptor be legal?

On the other hand, why have laptop manufacturers started supplying their
fully isolated PSUs with 3-pin connectors?

Incidentally, since the move from 2 to 3-pin laptop PSUs, has anybody
else noticed that the pound shops seem to be awash with figure-of-eight
mains leads these days ...?

--

Terry

[Terry Casey]

In article <cRqH5ZkW...@soft255.demon.co.uk>,
G6...@soft255.demon.co.uk says...

>
> In message <9mh6a4...@mid.individual.net>, John Williamson
> <johnwil...@btinternet.com> writes:
> []
> >So do the Italians. At least the Swiss one is polarised, the Italian
> >plug will fit in the socket either way round, so you never really know
> >which wire is live.
> >
> That's another thing: I assume anything is until told otherwise. Most
> (all I think) equipment that came with Schuko plugs had two-pole mains
> switches; the penny-pinching of only a single pole always seemed
> dangerous to me.

That's because the Shuko plug is also non polarised, whereas the French
variant is.

--

Terry

[David Looser]

"Jerry" <mapson...@btinternet.INVALID> wrote

>
> Arny Krueger doesn't give a date for his experiences of UK
> electrical installations

Neither Dave P nor you noticed that Arny's post said "All I know is that
after returning to the *US* from a year's stay in Germany".
(My emphasis).

David.

[David Looser]

"Jerry" <mapson...@btinternet.INVALID> wrote in message

news:je1bne$8id$3...@dont-email.me...

>
> "David Looser" <david....@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:9mifvp...@mid.individual.net...
>
> <snip>
> : I was singularly unimpressed with Italian mains safety. The 10A
> plug has 3
> : thin pins with no support for the plug other than that provided
> by the pins,
> : so the plugs tend to hang half-out of the socket due to the
> weight of the
> : flex. No shutters, no plug-top fuses and in the (modern)
> installation I saw
> : large numbers of sockets were all wired to a single fuse or
> circuit breaker
> : of significantly higher rating that of the plug & socket.
> :
>
> But how is that any different to some idiot in the UK bridging
> out the fuse in a BS1363 plug and then using 3A cable to string a
> large number of trailing sockets together, a prospect that has
> increased since the introduction of "Part P" in the UK
> (especially in hazardous areas such as wet areas and kitchens).

Well now, for starters there is poor retention in the socket for the Italian
plug, something for which the BS1363 design is particularly good. Also the
Italian plug is reversable, so its live/neutral polarity is a matter of
luck. Then the pins of the Italian plug are not sleeved, whilst all new
BS1363 plugs have been for for many years now.

I don't follow your logic that a safety device becomes a bad thing just
because some idiot somewhere will go out of his way to defeat it. The
overwhelming majority of BS1363 plugs are fused no higher than 13A, I don't
accept that the improved safety of the sensible majority is somehow
cancelled out by the actions of the occasional idiot.

As for your allegation that the introduction of Part P results in an
increase in the incidence of strings of trailing sockets wired with 3A cable
in hazardous areas, this seems to be another example of your notion that
safety rules are a bad thing because some idiot somewhere will ignore them.

>
> Perhaps you might care to place your comments about Italian
> electrical safety into some perspective, if it really is as
> dangerous as you claim, would you like to cite a reference for
> the number of electrical fires caused by such instillation
> practises?

I said that I was unimpressed with Italian electrical safety, which is true.
I made no claims about statistics. What I do know is that an Italian
installation would fail a UK electrical safety check.

>
> Only the ill-informed or idiots (those without common sense) make
> something unsafe.

A comment that seems at odds with your repeated assertions that BS1363 plugs
are unsafe because some idiot somewhere might link-out the fuse!

> As long as the rating of the socket or
> conductor is not exceeded then there is no problem surely. I note
> that you failed to specify the cross sectional dimension of
> conductor used in these Italian instillations...
> --

I did indeed "fail to specify" that, because I don't know what it was. But I
do know what conductor sizes were used on the flexes connected to those
plugs which was frequently 0.5 sqmm. Not adequate, I think, to handle up to
25A of fault current from a defective appliance. In the UK a flex of that
cross-section *should* be connected via a plug fused at 3A or less. OK, I
accept that many are actually fused at 13A (though less so now that new
appliances must have factory-fitted plugs) but I think that a less than
perfect safety system is better than no system at all.

David.

[Jerry]

"David Looser" <david....@btinternet.com> wrote in message

news:9misio...@mid.individual.net...
: "Jerry" <mapson...@btinternet.INVALID> wrote

:

Actually re-reading Arny's original comment (and the context),
it's about as clear as mud as to which electrical system he was
referring to! Besides I was replying to Mr Plowman's comments
(and inaccuracies) about the UK so there, so less of the "you"
please. :~P

[Jerry]

"David Looser" <david....@btinternet.com> wrote in message

news:9mirlp...@mid.individual.net...
: "Jerry" <mapson...@btinternet.INVALID> wrote in message

: news:je1bne$8id$2...@dont-email.me...
: >
: > "David Looser" <david....@btinternet.com> wrote in message
: > news:9mifkv...@mid.individual.net...
: > : "Jerry" <mapson...@btinternet.INVALID> wrote
: > : >
: > : > Not very often, just as kids in areas that do not use the
: > UK's
: > : > BS1363 plug/socket don't tend to poke things into other
types
: > of
: > : > sockets, why because they are *taught* not to whilst
being
: > : > supervised, of course that is to hard for average UK
parents
: > to
: > : > manage so the state has to hold their hands so to speak!
: > : >
: > :
: > : And with that paragraph you have blown any credibility you
: > might have hoped
: > : to acquire!
: > :
: >
: > Care to explain why you think that, or are you more
interested in
: > gratuitous effect?

:
: You have demonstrated to those who were not already aware of it

that you
: have precisely zero knowledge or experience of bringing up
children, and
: that you are not put of by your total lack of knowledge of a
subject in
: giving us the "benefit" of your uninformed opinion of it.

:

Who says, you? Well yes I don't have any experience of bringing
up YOUR kids!

As I said, you seem more interested in gratuitous effect that
reasoned debate,I must have hit a raw nerve with your own
parenting skills Mr Looser...

[David Looser]

"Jerry" <mapson...@btinternet.INVALID> wrote

> :
>
> Who says, you? Well yes I don't have any experience of bringing
> up YOUR kids!
>
> As I said, you seem more interested in gratuitous effect that
> reasoned debate,I must have hit a raw nerve with your own
> parenting skills Mr Looser...
>

You really are a contemptible piece of work aren't you Jerry? Even if I
wasn't already aware of your ignorance about children from coming across you
in other forums, your earlier statement would be enough to tell me that you
have no knowledge of the subject. For your information, Jerry, its very
small children, those too young to understand the concept of danger or to be
taught not to poke things into sockets, yet who are intensely curious and
mobile who are in danger from unshuttered sockets.

David.


>

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <je1bnf$8id$4...@dont-email.me>,

Jerry <mapson...@btinternet.INVALID> wrote:
> So far from being "impossible", even more so considering the
> number of older and thus 'unprotected' plugs that must still be
> in existence and use.

Yes pet. I forgot you live in a hovel.

--
*Virtual reality is its own reward *

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.