Do remote keypads sweat silcone oil?
Tedd Doda
writes:
:>The symptom is that the keys have to be pressed very hard
:>in order to make contact. Disassembling the remote, I find
:>a clear, thick, oily substance, like silcone oil, coating
:>the PCB on the side facing the conductive rubber contacts.
:>It does not appear to be reactive. Once this oil was cleaned
:>off (with detergent (409 + toothbrush) and water), the remote
:>works like new again.
I've always thought it was "body oil" from the users fingers,
because most of the units I've cleaned had this substance
on both sides of the membrane.
I had a NIB unit that someone ordered a couple years ago
and checked for the "oil", but none was found, so it doesn't
appear to happen because of time.
Tedd Doda, VE3TJD
If replying directly, remove ".no.spam."
from reply address.
alec.jefford
told..
"definately nothing has been spilt on it " i would be very rich..
obviously this rates up there with the ufo mysteries i guess.....not...!!!!
in order of guilt
suspect..
small children.... orange juice
ancient adult ladies.... gin
teenagers.... coke (drink)
couch potatoes... lager
rodents and cats.. yeuk
ufo,s hand grease and condensation...0
100% cure keep the remote in a plastic bag....
:-) alec
Michael Shell <mike...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3A309FC0...@yahoo.com...
> Hi folks,
>
>
> I have recently become aware of something that appears
> to be affecting those silicone rubber keypads that are
> used extensively (if not exclusively) in remote controls.
>
> The symptom is that the keys have to be pressed very hard
> in order to make contact. Disassembling the remote, I find
> a clear, thick, oily substance, like silcone oil, coating
> the PCB on the side facing the conductive rubber contacts.
> It does not appear to be reactive. Once this oil was cleaned
> off (with detergent (409 + toothbrush) and water), the remote
> works like new again.
>
> Now, ordinarily, I would blame it on spillage or a possible
> battery leak. But, get this:
>
> 1. I have now seen this problem on three different remotes.
>
> 2. They are used by different people in different geographical
> areas.
>
> 3. I *know* that nothing has been spilled on them.
>
> 4. The *top* side of the rubber keypad (which faces the user)
> is clean and oil free.
>
> 5. One of the remotes had been serviced by me several years
> ago and no oil was noted then - it cannot be an assembly
> lub or an antioxidant.
>
> 6. There is no evidence of any battery leaks.
>
> 7. The oil does not appear on the opposite, component side
> of the PCB.
>
>
> I am faced with the conclusion that the side of the silcone rubber
> which faces the PCB "sweats" oil (silicone?, mold release agent?).
> After several years, this oil, which appears to be a good insulator
> with a high film strength, will interfere with normal contact
> operation.
>
> The affected remotes include a Toshiba VCR from the late 80's, a
> Toshiba TV (circa 1995), and a Dish Network remote (circa 1997).
>
>
> Please share your thoughts on this,
>
>
> Mike Shell
>
> mike...@yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
Bob Acord
same thing. Cleaning the oil out, usually restores the remote. If you ever
get it figured out, post your findings.
Michael Shell
Ok folks I think I have an answer!
Daniel Malik noticed that the keys (and remotes) that are used more
often, tend to have more oil problems. This is in agreement with my
observations.
One thing I have to make clear is that I *_KNOW_ * that whatever is
going on is NOT due to spillage or other external contamination. If I
had not seen it with my own eyes, I would not believe it either!
Sometimes the keys that are used most often (and have the most
oil) are in the center - this is a LONG way for an external
contaminant to have to travel!
The oil behaves a bit differently from most normal household
(and hand) oils.
1. It is not sticky in the least
2. It is VERY clear.
3. It is VERY hydrophobic and detergent action is noticeably less
than with most petroleum based oils.
I would not have noticed these fine points except for the fact that
I have worked with Silicone (DOT 5) brake fluid which, except for
an added purple dye, behaves in the same way.
***** Get a loada' this:>> http://www.jdf.dk/esilman/esilman6.htm
(down at the bottom, section 7.0 "Quality")
So, it seems the silicone keypad manufacturers have been keeping
a dirty little secret all these years!
I guess we all have to look forward to our 3 year cleaning ritual. I
suppose a hardcore hardware hacker could do his own keypad
baking and post some before and after weight measurements to tell
us how many grams of oil these things hold! (WARNING: you may
have to do the baking in an oxygen free atmosphere!)
I will request that this information be added to the FAQ after I go
after a few more mysteries.
Thanks all!
Mike
Gudule
years, turns the material back to its original state , unless its a chimical
reactions of some sort, or its the material that is somewhat porous, and a
person greasy fingers eventually ooze out some tru the keyboard ???
NeoLuddite
<mike...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I have seen this happen not with remotes but with electronic kitchen
timers. I've taken several Radio shack brand timers apart and fixed them
by cleaning and reassembling. The construction of the rubber keypads is
as you have described and there is an oily coating. However in my case
the whole timer is coated with oil from cooking as these timers are
sitting on the hood of an unrented stovetop. Is it possible that these
remotes have been used with a TV in the kitchen?
--
Careful. We don't want to learn from this. - Calvin & Hobbes
Asimov
--- on the topic of "Re: Do remote keypads sweat silcone oil?"
The answer is that the plastic breaks down when in contact with vinyl.
I've experienced this problem a number of times when leaving guitar
patch cords on top of plastic equipement for a length of time.
Invariably I found an oily gooey residue in the contact area and the
plastic surface had melted underneath. I think it has to do with the
catalyser used in making the vinyl soft which is never completely
reacted and this is the actual culprit. The dirty little secret theory
is right on!
MS> Ok folks I think I have an answer!
MS> Daniel Malik noticed that the keys (and remotes) that are used more
MS> often, tend to have more oil problems. This is in agreement with my
MS> observations.
MS> One thing I have to make clear is that I *_KNOW_ * that whatever is
MS> going on is NOT due to spillage or other external contamination. If I
MS> had not seen it with my own eyes, I would not believe it either!
MS> Sometimes the keys that are used most often (and have the most
MS> oil) are in the center - this is a LONG way for an external
MS> contaminant to have to travel!
MS> The oil behaves a bit differently from most normal household
MS> (and hand) oils.
MS> 1. It is not sticky in the least
MS> 2. It is VERY clear.
MS> 3. It is VERY hydrophobic and detergent action is noticeably less
MS> than with most petroleum based oils.
MS> I would not have noticed these fine points except for the fact that
MS> I have worked with Silicone (DOT 5) brake fluid which, except for
MS> an added purple dye, behaves in the same way.
MS> ***** Get a loada' this:>> http://www.jdf.dk/esilman/esilman6.htm
MS> (down at the bottom, section 7.0 "Quality")
MS> So, it seems the silicone keypad manufacturers have been keeping
MS> a dirty little secret all these years!
MS> I guess we all have to look forward to our 3 year cleaning ritual. I
MS> suppose a hardcore hardware hacker could do his own keypad
MS> baking and post some before and after weight measurements to tell
MS> us how many grams of oil these things hold! (WARNING: you may
MS> have to do the baking in an oxygen free atmosphere!)
MS> I will request that this information be added to the FAQ after I go
MS> after a few more mysteries.
MS> Thanks all!
MS> Mike
... [] <- Please write your complaint legibly in that box.
Michael Shell
>
> The answer is that the plastic breaks down when in contact with vinyl.
> I've experienced this problem a number of times when leaving guitar
> patch cords on top of plastic equipment for a length of time.
This is a real, and very serious, problem with lots of products.
Vinyl seems to emit a gas which will react with and destroy many substances.
A good example is those vinyl book covers which have turned the outside of
many a book into eternal sticky mush.
I thought that it may be a possibility that the keypad is reacting to the
green
protective PCB coating. The problem with that theory is:
1. The green coating is not degraded in any way.
2. Silicone rubber (and oil) is extremely inert. You have to work to
find something that will pick a fight with it. ;)
It seems from the URL I cited, that silicone oil is trapped in the polymer
matrix during the manufacturing process. If steps are not taken to expel it,
it will leach out years later. Pressure points, which are highest at the
contact areas, tend to squeeze it out. Heat accelerates the process too.
Also, gravity
will tend to work the oil downward. Note that the idea that a soft rubber is
carrying a liquid within it is, in my opinion, creepy.
See a new thread: "my list of most hated design choices"
Mike
Andre de Guerin
<aco...@networksplus.net> wrote:
>I've been servicing VCRs for 12 years now and I have wondered about the very
>same thing. Cleaning the oil out, usually restores the remote. If you ever
>get it figured out, post your findings.
I vote for the finger oil theory.
I'd bet that the silicone membrane gets worn out and therefore lets
oil though more easily . (after all its being flexed every time a
button is pressed) .
I just clean them carefully with isopropanol , it happens about once a
year or so . (esp. on cordless telephones) .
BTW I have seen the IR diode burn out for no apparent reason on some
remotes , seems to be either being dropped that does it, or inadequate
current control to the diode (they don't bother to use a resistor on
some remotes, just switch it straight through a FET) .
A 100% solution, get a universal remote .
(preferably a programmable one) .
Asimov
--- on the topic of "Re: Do remote keypads sweat silcone oil?"
MS> It seems from the URL I cited, that silicone oil is trapped in the
MS> polymer matrix during the manufacturing process. If steps are not taken
MS> to expel it, it will leach out years later. Pressure points, which are
MS> highest at the contact areas, tend to squeeze it out. Heat accelerates
MS> the process too. Also, gravity
MS> will tend to work the oil downward. Note that the idea that a soft
MS> rubber is carrying a liquid within it is, in my opinion, creepy.
The oil doesn't come from the vinyl. The same meltdown occurs with
ordinary rubber vinyl not only silicon rubber. The residue is probably
benzene rings which have been liberated from the hard plastic's surface.
That's why the plastic melts into a tiny pool of goop under the vinyl.
The actual culprit is the catalyzer used to make the rubber soft during
the vulcanization process, some unreacted part is left behind in the
vinyl. If you've ever used silicon caulking you'll often read a warning
about the acetic acid fumes which are liberated in the hardening
process.
In order to sidestep the problem one solution might be to use
polyethelene instead. However this is a much softer plastic and would
have to be molded very thickly.
Where's a chemist when we need one...
Christopher R. Smyth
One thing that i have done to all my remotes, is mold new ones using a
polymer type setup such as $100USD keyboards use, with the plastic keys and
the soft plastic pushers.
Works quite well and the remotes are easy to clean. Never did like the soft
plastic buttons, and that's why my old 70's zenith remote has been modified
to be in service as my new tv remote :)
--
Christopher R. Smyth
Systems Admnistrator
http://www.quest-networks.net
kya...@quest-networks.net
Want a webpage, don't want banners. Thats what we do.
www.quest-networks.net
Michael Shell
>
> Works quite well and the remotes are easy to clean. Never did like the soft
> plastic buttons, and that's why my old 70's zenith remote has been modified
> to be in service as my new tv remote :)
>
I think I can explain why. The soft rubber has two issues:
1. It has a higher coefficient of friction- the button
resists a lateral slide- you can't "glide" into position.
2. The rubber distorts when pressed. This gets it around the
fingernail and puts more pressure on the finger tip.
This distortion also makes things feel "squishy".
I'll bet you take awhile when shopping for calculators! ;)
Mike
Christopher R. Smyth
The guys at Dish network thought i was nuts when i told them what i did to
the remote. They said "Why?". Then i explained how their remotes sweat,
and the guy just thought i was nutz. And that's why they get so many on
return(they have a warantee on their hardware, and the remotes die before
it's up.)
--
Christopher R. Smyth
Systems Admnistrator
http://www.quest-networks.net
Want a webpage, don't want banners. Thats what we do.
www.quest-networks.net
"Michael Shell" <mike...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3A33DCEC...@yahoo.com...
daw...@gmail.com
Though I find myself cleaning my Bravia remote every few months and this is after putting up with sketchy behavior for a month. The area that is affected the most on any of my present or past remotes seems to only be the Volume and Mute buttons which are used more than any of the others. Don't like listening to the overly load commercials. So maybe there is the rubbing of silicone against vinyl that is in play here. ???
William Sommerwerck
> substances. A good example is those vinyl book covers which have
> turned the outside of many a book into eternal sticky mush.
same trouble with textbooks that had a kind "plastic-coated-board" covers. And
I've seen the plasticizer in patch cords attack plastic surfaces.
I am no aware of any plasticizer in the rubbery contacts of remote controls.
I've taken apart the keypad for my Ford. There is a silicone goo in it, which
I assume is there to prevent rust or corrosion.
whit3rd
> Ok folks I think I have an answer!
>
> Daniel Malik noticed that the keys (and remotes) that are used more
> often, tend to have more oil problems. This is in agreement with my
> observations.
>
> One thing I have to make clear is that I *_KNOW_ * that whatever is
> going on is NOT due to spillage or other external contamination. If I
> The oil behaves a bit differently from most normal household
> (and hand) oils.
>
> 1. It is not sticky in the least
> 2. It is VERY clear.
> 3. It is VERY hydrophobic and detergent action is noticeably less
> than with most petroleum based oils.
>
> I would not have noticed these fine points except for the fact that
Probably, the rubbery key material is compounded with a plasticizer.
The oil is really the plasticizer material oozing out.
Plasticizers are additives that keep plastics flexible or springy, and
they can come out of the plastic as it ages (gummed-up old vinyl power
cords are a familiar example).
Brake fluid contains a plasticizer (to keep the o-rings and seals
properly rubbery).
Michael Black
a 14 year old post. The guy isn't here anymore.
Michael