dialup issues

[klem kedidelhopper]

I have two pots lines in my house. One is business class and the other
is residential. As far as I can tell the one difference between the
two is that the phone company gets to charge me twice as much for the
business line.

A few years ago before we went to DSL we had dialup service here. On
the business line I was never able to get any better than a 26K
connection. I never really investigated this and with no audible
aberrations on the line this was never a problem as we just used the
dialup on the residential line instead. On that line we usually could
get a 45K connection and sometimes even 50.

I recently dropped the DSL service and will likely drop the
residential service as well. We went back to dialup with the same
provider. The business line speed problem noted years ago is still
there. I've dialed up the telco's "quiet line" to listen to both lines
off hook, (while we still have the residential line) and they both
sound clean. I plan to go to the interface to look at this but we now
have a big storm coming so for now the 26K will suffice. If plugging
directly into the interface yields a good (45K) connection on the slow
line then I realize that the problem is then in the premises and I'll
have to troubleshoot that.

My question is if the problem is in the premises wiring what could be
the most likely cause of something like this? As I previously
mentioned I can't "hear" any problem but of course that doesn't mean
that one doesn't exist. Before I start dismantling my inside wiring it
would be nice if I had a clue as to what I was looking for. The phone
company by the way has been no help with this.

If anyone has any ideas that they would share I would be extremely
grateful. Lenny

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 09:22:52 -0800 (PST), klem kedidelhopper
<captainvi...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I have two pots lines in my house. One is business class and the other
>is residential. As far as I can tell the one difference between the
>two is that the phone company gets to charge me twice as much for the
>business line.

Nope. It depends on how the line is run. If you have copper pair
going all the way back to the CO (central office), then you'll
probably do ok for 56kbits/sec dialup. However, if your line is
delivered via an ISDN pair gain split or SLC (subscriber line
constipator), you'll see only about 24Kbit/sec.

You should have kept the residential line, and move the business
number to it. Too late.

>The business line speed problem noted years ago is still
>there. I've dialed up the telco's "quiet line" to listen to both lines
>off hook, (while we still have the residential line) and they both
>sound clean.

You can't hear the noise on a quiet line. You'll need an instrument
to measure the residual noise level. However, I don't think that's
the problem.

>My question is if the problem is in the premises wiring what could be
>the most likely cause of something like this?

No. The most likely culprits are:
1. Bridged taps.
2. Equalizers left in the line from previous service owner.
3. Rotten connections on the poles (noise and high loop resistance).
4. Excessive crosstalk from other services in the bundle.
5. AM Radio station pickup.
6. Whatever else I forgot.

I've seen pairs in the same bundle, where most work just fine, but
where one or two pairs are garbage or worse. I recently had that on
my home POTS pair, which required considerable effort on the part of
Ma Bell to untangle the mess they created.

I've also seen intermittent problems, where 56K was possible during
daylight hours, but would magically drop to 26K after midnight. That
turned out to be AT&T running "preventive maintenance" tests and
forgetting to turn off the tones and sweeps.

>If anyone has any ideas that they would share I would be extremely
>grateful. Lenny

This brings back nightmares from 15 years ago. Welcome to the stone
age:
<http://www.LearnByDestroying.com/aty11/aty11.htm>
(Most of the links are dead.... Oh well). Using a USR modem and this
method, I've been able to identify screwed up phone lines fairly
easily.

I hate to point out the obvious, but you can get "dry" DSL service
(i.e. no voice service) for not much more than POTS voice. Then, get
yourself a really cheap VoIP provider (http://www.future-nine.com or
http://www.ooma.com), and you've got voice and data.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[William Sommerwerck]

> I've seen pairs in the same bundle, where most work just fine,
> but where one or two pairs are garbage or worse.

So... inasmuch as a house's internal cabling usually has unused pairs -- would
it be worth switching to another pair?

[Sofa Slug]

On 2/8/2013 9:22 AM, klem kedidelhopper wrote:
<snipped>

> I plan to go to the interface to look at this but we now have a big
> storm coming so for now the 26K will suffice. If plugging directly
> into the interface yields a good (45K) connection on the slow line
> then I realize that the problem is then in the premises and I'll have
> to troubleshoot that.
>
> My question is if the problem is in the premises wiring what could
> be the most likely cause of something like this? As I previously
> mentioned I can't "hear" any problem but of course that doesn't mean
> that one doesn't exist. Before I start dismantling my inside wiring
> it would be nice if I had a clue as to what I was looking for. The
> phone company by the way has been no help with this.
>
> If anyone has any ideas that they would share I would be extremely
> grateful. Lenny
>

FWIW, I had a problem with low DSL speed similar to yours. It turned out
to be a tarnished/corroded RJ-11 wall plate jack. Once the wall plate
was replaced, the problems disappeared.

[Fred McKenzie]

In article
<eb641195-020d-45d6...@y9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,

klem kedidelhopper <captainvi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> My question is if the problem is in the premises wiring what could be
> the most likely cause of something like this?

Klem-

There should be a modular phone connector in the box where your phone
line attaches to the house. You can isolate a problem to being inside
or outside, by connecting your equipment to the outside jack, and seeing
if the problem goes away.

Fred

[mike]

On 2/8/2013 9:22 AM, klem kedidelhopper wrote:

I had a speed problem back in the day.
Called the number (in india) on the bill and was told the line was fine.
But they'd gladly send someone out to tell me the same thing for a fee.
I poked around and discovered the direct phone number to the district
manager in my town. Problem was fixed in minutes. Somebody had the
switch in the wrong position back at the CO.

[Jeff Liebermann]

Definitely, if you can get the phone company to do it. In my case,
the bundle was fully subscribed and there were no spare pairs.
However, as cable telephony and VoIP became more popular, many people
gave up their POTS lines, making alternatives available. As soon as I
found one good pair that was available (tested with a TDR), I
convinced the phone company to mark mine bad and switch my line to a
new pair. I've also done similar swaps for customers. It's not easy,
but it is possible. Oddly, the most recent repair was a general
cleanup of the noisy lines between my house (near the end of the line)
to the termination box (about 3/4 mile). It took one installer, 3
hours and a bucket truck to fix all the crappy connections. He did it
right. I inspected the work and it was perfect. That's 30+ years of
crappy POTS service fixed in 3 hrs. Cleaning up phone lines is not
rocket science.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 09:56:36 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
> <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >> I've seen pairs in the same bundle, where most work just fine,
> >> but where one or two pairs are garbage or worse.
> >
> >So... inasmuch as a house's internal cabling usually has unused pairs -- would
> >it be worth switching to another pair?
>
> Definitely, if you can get the phone company to do it. In my case,
> the bundle was fully subscribed and there were no spare pairs.
> However, as cable telephony and VoIP became more popular, many people
> gave up their POTS lines, making alternatives available. As soon as I
> found one good pair that was available (tested with a TDR), I
> convinced the phone company to mark mine bad and switch my line to a
> new pair. I've also done similar swaps for customers. It's not easy,
> but it is possible. Oddly, the most recent repair was a general
> cleanup of the noisy lines between my house (near the end of the line)
> to the termination box (about 3/4 mile). It took one installer, 3
> hours and a bucket truck to fix all the crappy connections. He did it
> right. I inspected the work and it was perfect. That's 30+ years of
> crappy POTS service fixed in 3 hrs. Cleaning up phone lines is not
> rocket science.

Unless you're making phone calls from space. ;-)

A 'Magic Jack+' plugged into the Sat router/modem attached to the
Microdyne 700 wideband KU band communications system aboard the ISS, and
you can have a local phone number in orbit.

[Jon Elson]

Well, not always. We have corrosion IN the demarcation box, and that
RJ11 needs to be replaced every couple years. This is St. Louis, MO.,
humid, but not insanely so. You can tell because the whole connector
turns black, both the jack and most especially the plug on the
pigtail, where it is really obvious because it is supposed to be
clear plastic.

Jon

[Dave Platt]

In article <kf3iom$8dt$1...@dont-email.me>, mike <ham...@netzero.net> wrote:

> My question is if the problem is in the premises wiring what could be
> the most likely cause of something like this? As I previously
> mentioned I can't "hear" any problem but of course that doesn't mean
> that one doesn't exist. Before I start dismantling my inside wiring it
> would be nice if I had a clue as to what I was looking for. The phone
> company by the way has been no help with this.

I've had premises-wiring problems from all sorts of causes:

- Humidity and moisture condensation in the wall outlet box
(affecting a wall box located near our washing machine). Surface
contamination (dirt and mold buildup) plus moisture equals leakage,
which was apparently enough to cause problems.

- Corrosion of the connecting screws, wire-end ring or fork
terminals, or the wire ends crimped to the terminals... again,
probably due to moisture and contamination over the years.

- Loose screw-and-terminal connections in the connection boxes. In
many cases the screws are coarse-thread self-tapping varieties,
screwed into relatively soft plastic; over the years they can work
loose or (if loosened and tightened repeatedly) tear or wear out
the plastic into which they are fastened.

- Corroded, dirty, or bent metal "fingers" in the RJ-11/12 jacks.

- Too many branch circuits within the house... e.g. it's wired for "a
phone in every room". The usused jacks act as unterminated stubs,
and cause signal reflections (near-end echo) which can interfere
with the incoming signal. My guess is that near-end echo which is
inaudible or unobjectionable to the human ear (too low in
amplitude, too near in time to the original transmission) can still
degrade signal quality in a full-duplex modem transmission.

- Phones on other branch circuits on the line placing their ringer
impedance across the line - again a form of near-end echo but with
slightly different characteristics.

- Bad connections (e.g. sets of wires merely twisted together, perhaps
with wire nuts, rather than being either soldered or cross-connected
with a good "punch-down" system of some sort.

- Use of old-style non-twisted-pair "station cable" or (worse yet)
flat "satin" cable for the premises wiring. This leads to poor
rejection of RFI and hum. Running phone wire right by power wiring
can induce hum, and this makes life more difficult for the modem.

I can't give any objective estimate as to the amount of trouble any
one of these can cause, but I believe that all of them can have some
effect.

When looking at and diagnosing your existing premises wiring, I'd
start by looking at all of the connectors - they're probably the
weakest link. Check the wire itself (wherever it's accessible) to
look for dubious connections, breaks (rats and mice sometimes chew up
the cable), or unneeded branch connections which could be eliminated.

Pulling new wire is probably a measure of last resort but might be
necessary. The closer you can get to an "Ethernet-class" phone wiring
from your modem's connection point back to the MPOE, the better. A
single run of twisted-pair cable (CAT-3 or better), punched down onto
good-quality insulation-displacement-type RJ-11 terminations, with no
branch circuits and thus nothing else sharing the line, is probably
the best approach I can recommend.

--
Dave Platt <dpl...@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

[klem kedidelhopper]

On Feb 8, 3:46 pm, Jon Elson <jmel...@wustl.edu> wrote:
> Fred McKenzie wrote:
> > In article

> > <eb641195-020d-45d6-ba7c-21016805c...@y9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,

> >  klem kedidelhopper <captainvideo462...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> My question is if the problem is in the premises wiring what could be
> >> the most likely cause of something like this?
>
> > Klem-
>
> > There should be a modular phone connector in the box where your phone
> > line attaches to the house.  You can isolate a problem to being inside
> > or outside, by connecting your equipment to the outside jack, and seeing
> > if the problem goes away.
>
> Well, not always.  We have corrosion IN the demarcation box, and that
> RJ11 needs to be replaced every couple years.  This is St. Louis, MO.,
> humid, but not insanely so.  You can tell because the whole connector
> turns black, both the jack and most especially the plug on the
> pigtail, where it is really obvious because it is supposed to be
> clear plastic.
>
> Jon

Well I guess that before tearing my house wiring apart I'll go to the
demarc, (after this monster storm the Northeast is having is over) and
see if the line to the CO without the premises wiring in parallel with
it gets me a good connection. The best I can hope for is that it
doesn't. Then I'll know my fight is with the telephone company. That
will be interesting to see what kind of shit they'll give me at that
point as they also provide dialup service, but at 4 times the cost of
my provider.. Lenny

[Jon Elson]

klem kedidelhopper wrote:


> Well I guess that before tearing my house wiring apart I'll go to the
> demarc, (after this monster storm the Northeast is having is over) and
> see if the line to the CO without the premises wiring in parallel with
> it gets me a good connection. The best I can hope for is that it
> doesn't. Then I'll know my fight is with the telephone company. That
> will be interesting to see what kind of shit they'll give me at that
> point as they also provide dialup service, but at 4 times the cost of
> my provider.. Lenny

I used to have DSL. Our lines were not great before DSL, and were OK
after, and I used DSL for at least 5 years, first with Telocity, then
DirectTV, and finally Covad. (I think I got that order correct.)
All of these DSL services worked quite well until AT&T bought Southwestern
Bell. Then my lines went terribly bad, constant crackling and hum, and
phone service was even out for days at a time. AT&T's fix was to add over
a MILE of zig-zag trunks all over town, and my DSL just about died at
18,000 feet of wire. I had the demarc box fixed a number of times, the
buried drop from the pole was dug up and replaced 3 or 4 times, and
some buried trunk under the street, etc. was also replaced. After I
got rid of DSL and went to cable, we STILL had phone line trouble, but
they seem to have gotten it working pretty well, lately. Oh, well,
spring lightning season is soon upon us, so it will go bad again.
I changed my business line over from POTS to VOIP and I can't believe
how good it sounds, though. Compared to AT&T it sounds like a recording
studio!

I have internet through Charter Business, pretty expensive, but basically
the only game in town. I need the Business service because I have a
web store, mail server, primary DNS server, file server, etc. at my
house. Once every 18 months or so some imbecile driver goes
airborne and shears off the pole down the street and that sometimes causes
cable trunk problems, the internet keeps on working, but you get a
lot of dropped packets until they get it fixed.

Jon

[Jon Elson]

Dave Platt wrote:


> - Too many branch circuits within the house... e.g. it's wired for "a
> phone in every room". The usused jacks act as unterminated stubs,
> and cause signal reflections (near-end echo) which can interfere
> with the incoming signal. My guess is that near-end echo which is
> inaudible or unobjectionable to the human ear (too low in
> amplitude, too near in time to the original transmission) can still
> degrade signal quality in a full-duplex modem transmission.

Oh, yeah. They give you some "phone filters" with the DSL modem. What
you should do is install the DSL modem near the place the phone line enters
the house. Cut the wire, connect the DSL modem with short wire to the
incoming line, and put the filter right there, and connect the rest of the
house to the filter. This should greatly help the DSL modem to work.

Of course, this won't do any good for dialup. But, then, I can't even
IMAGINE going back to dialup today. With the typical web pages offered
today, you might take 2 hours to get the first page load from Google!

Jon

[mrob...@att.net]

klem kedidelhopper <captainvi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well I guess that before tearing my house wiring apart I'll go to the
> demarc, (after this monster storm the Northeast is having is over) and
> see if the line to the CO without the premises wiring in parallel with
> it gets me a good connection.

If you can get into the "phone company only" side of the demarc, do so.
It should have a surge protector for each line, with three terminals:
two for the line and one for ground. Sometimes these go wrong. You can
temporarily disconnect the line from the surge protector (on a nice
sunny day) and see if that improves things. (It may help to have a
couple of sets of 6-32 screw, nut, and washer to make this connection.)
Since you have two lines, you could also swap the protectors to see if
there is a change. Don't run without the surge protector forever; just
long enough to see if there is a change. Also, there is 48 VDC across
each line and up to 90 VAC if it rings, so be careful. You can also
check for water, flora, and fauna in there. When you are done,
carefully put it back together the way it was.

It is also worth applying an eyeball to the pedestal (underground cable)
or splice cover (overhead) where your wire joins the cable in the
neighborhood, to look for missing/damaged covers, signs of trees or
critters or water getting in, etc. These are not really your baby to
fix but you can point them out to the lineman.

Matt Roberds

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 08 Feb 2013 14:46:32 -0600, Jon Elson <jme...@wustl.edu>
wrote:

>Well, not always. We have corrosion IN the demarcation box, and that
>RJ11 needs to be replaced every couple years. This is St. Louis, MO.,
>humid, but not insanely so. You can tell because the whole connector
>turns black, both the jack and most especially the plug on the
>pigtail, where it is really obvious because it is supposed to be
>clear plastic.

Black or dark brown is copper oxide. My guess(tm) is that you do not
have gold contacts and have not applied any silicon grease to the
contacts to keep the moisture out. Clean the connectors, apply some
grease, and it should last longer.

Incidentally, the new AT&T NID (demarc) boxes are now coming with a
different flavor of disconnect. Instead of the RJ11 with a flat cable
jumper, it's now integrated with the inside line connector. Swivel
the assembly and it automatically disconnects.
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/ATT-Demarc/index.html>
I'm tempted to put the old box back.

[hrho...@sbcglobal.net]

On Feb 9, 11:39 am, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Feb 2013 14:46:32 -0600, Jon Elson <jmel...@wustl.edu>

> Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

looks like you can't tell anything now with the connections
concealed. Progress???????

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 9 Feb 2013 17:42:13 -0800 (PST), "hrho...@sbcglobal.net"
<hrho...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>looks like you can't tell anything now with the connections
>concealed. Progress???????

As Apple and AT&T would usually say "You don't need to know", or more
correctly "Now you can't find out". That's why I want to put the old
NIU back in it's place. I can't see what's happening or plug in my
tester. I'll probably end up building an RJ14 male-to-female
T-adapter cable with test points so can do something useful with it.

Made by Corning:
<http://catalog.corning.com/CableSystems/en-US/catalog/MasterProduct.aspx?cid=copper_nids_web&pid=21746>

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com

Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[micky]

On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 09:22:52 -0800 (PST), klem kedidelhopper
<captainvi...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I have two pots lines in my house. One is business class and the other
>is residential. As far as I can tell the one difference between the
>two is that the phone company gets to charge me twice as much for the
>business line.
>
>A few years ago before we went to DSL we had dialup service here. On
>the business line I was never able to get any better than a 26K
>connection. I never really investigated this and with no audible
>aberrations on the line this was never a problem as we just used the
>dialup on the residential line instead. On that line we usually could
>get a 45K connection and sometimes even 50.
>
>I recently dropped the DSL service and will likely drop the
>residential service as well. We went back to dialup with the same
>provider. The business line speed problem noted years ago is still
>there. I've dialed up the telco's "quiet line" to listen to both lines

What's the quiet line? Does every phone company have this? Does
Verizon?

>off hook, (while we still have the residential line) and they both
>sound clean. I plan to go to the interface to look at this but we now
>have a big storm coming so for now the 26K will suffice. If plugging
>directly into the interface yields a good (45K) connection on the slow
>line then I realize that the problem is then in the premises and I'll
>have to troubleshoot that.
>
>My question is if the problem is in the premises wiring what could be
>the most likely cause of something like this? As I previously
>mentioned I can't "hear" any problem but of course that doesn't mean
>that one doesn't exist. Before I start dismantling my inside wiring it
>would be nice if I had a clue as to what I was looking for. The phone
>company by the way has been no help with this.

I have little experience and almost no idea if this relates to you,
but I have a story. And it's about DSL, not even dial-up. So for
that reason too, maybe it has no application to you. But it's a good
story.

I signed up for that 5 years ago, and using some webpage to measure my
speed, was never getting nearly as fast as I should Also, I have an
indoor wiring problem that comes and goes, and so I had run a wire
from the outside interface, up the front of the house and straight to
a simple splitter, DSL and telephone.

This meant I could only close the window and storm window maybe 95%.
I was using the kind of 4 conductor wire used to connect phones to the
wall.

To close the window 100%, I bought special, thin, flat phone wire,
from the phone section of Home Depot, meant for places like this,
between windows and the window frame. .

A few ways later, my phone continued to work, and the web radio
worked, but newsgroups, email, and web did not. I was stumped, and
the Verizon DSL guy come over. He said there is mor e than one level
of the phone line not working, and of DSL not working.. So the fact
that the phone and the web radio worked, didn't mean DSL was fully
working. He said the wire going out the window was too thin. (Or
maybe it had to do with too thin considering my aluminmum window
frames (both surrounding the glass and lining the window opening.

So now, for the last year, I use the kind of 4-conductor phone wire
that people put inside walls, stiffer and thicker,, and my download
speed has tripled and stayed tripled. .

(I'm still not using the thickest or stiffest wire used for that, but
I'm at the speed they promised me, so I suppose going to even thicker
wire won't help;)

I used other methods to keep the cold air from coming in the window
around the wire.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 00:29:42 -0500, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

>What's the quiet line?

If you hear buzz, clicks, hummmmm, noise, crackly, etc on the phone,
the first step is to determine whether it's a problem at the CO
(central office), on the line, or somewhere in the inside wiring. To
eliminate the inside wiring, simply plug the tester into the NIU
(demarc), thus disconnecting the house wiring. To determine if it's
coming from the switch at the CO, dial a quiet line number. All it
does is terminate the call to a perfect dummy load, that does NOT go
through the switch. If the noise disappears, it's coming from
somewhere inside the CO. If it's still there, it's on the line
somewhere.

>Does every phone company have this? Does
>Verizon?

Yes, yes, and I don't know the Verizon number.

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

micky wrote:
>
> A few ways later, my phone continued to work, and the web radio
> worked, but newsgroups, email, and web did not. I was stumped, and
> the Verizon DSL guy come over. He said there is mor e than one level
> of the phone line not working, and of DSL not working.. So the fact
> that the phone and the web radio worked, didn't mean DSL was fully
> working. He said the wire going out the window was too thin. (Or
> maybe it had to do with too thin considering my aluminmum window
> frames (both surrounding the glass and lining the window opening.

That's because DSL is "adaptive". The devices at each end are "smart" and
try the maximum speed they can. If that fails, or they get too many errors,
they try a lower speed until they can connect.

Analog modems do that too.

I can connect to the web browser interface of my DSL routers (which include
"modems") and see the exact speed the line is capable of, the speed it is
running at and the error rates. I can even run a BER (bit error rate) test
without disturbing the line.

In my case it's not very useful, as the DSL portion of my phone service
runs few hundred meters. It goes to a box somewhere near my home which
converts the DSL and analog voice to fiber optics.

That device is even smarter than you would expect, it opens its own
trouble tickets with the phone company and sends me SMSs when it does
or they are resolved.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379
Gung Hay Fat Choy! (May the new year be prosperous).

[klem kedidelhopper]

On Feb 10, 1:24 am, "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <g...@mendelson.com>
wrote:

Quiet line numbers are often like ANI numbers (for identifying the CO
line), which are "top secret" within the phone company. The phone
company will never give them to you, but a cooperative lineman might
after you've established a rap or with him on a job. Some of the older
local exchanges here in New England worked with 200-2222222. Lenny

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 07:16:21 -0800 (PST), klem kedidelhopper
<captainvi...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Quiet line numbers are often like ANI numbers (for identifying the CO
>line), which are "top secret" within the phone company. The phone
>company will never give them to you, but a cooperative lineman might
>after you've established a rap or with him on a job. Some of the older
>local exchanges here in New England worked with 200-2222222. Lenny

Ummm... ANAC numbers from Wikipedia:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_number_announcement_circuit>

You should be able to find quiet line numbers with Google.

[josephkk]

On Sat, 09 Feb 2013 22:10:47 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 00:29:42 -0500, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
>wrote:
>
>>What's the quiet line?
>
>If you hear buzz, clicks, hummmmm, noise, crackly, etc on the phone,
>the first step is to determine whether it's a problem at the CO
>(central office), on the line, or somewhere in the inside wiring. To
>eliminate the inside wiring, simply plug the tester into the NIU
>(demarc), thus disconnecting the house wiring. To determine if it's
>coming from the switch at the CO, dial a quiet line number. All it
>does is terminate the call to a perfect dummy load, that does NOT go
>through the switch. If the noise disappears, it's coming from
>somewhere inside the CO. If it's still there, it's on the line
>somewhere.
>
>>Does every phone company have this? Does
>>Verizon?
>
>Yes, yes, and I don't know the Verizon number.

Please provide any number that you know. I am willing to bet that it is
industry standard.

?-)

[josephkk]

How about that. Many 555-#### numbers are various diagnostic systems.

?-)

[Jeff Liebermann]

How much would you like to bet? The ANAC, ANI, DAMT, quiet line,
milliwatt tone, etc test numbers vary between locations, CO's, type of
switch, and companies. Same with quiet line numbers, security, test
equipment, procedures, and standards. AT&T is fairly standardized
throughout the system. I don't have a clue what Verizon does as
everything I work with locally uses AT&T.

However, if you want numbers to abuse, this might help.
<http://www.tek-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=583069>
It's 10 year old, but looks accurate.

Please send my winnings to the address below.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 18:26:37 -0800, josephkk
<joseph_...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>How about that. Many 555-#### numbers are various diagnostic systems.
>?-)

Nope. Except for directory assistance, the 555 prefix is reserved for
"fake" phone numbers, as used in movies and videos.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/555_(telephone_number)>

[micky]

On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 19:11:49 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 18:26:37 -0800, josephkk
><joseph_...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>How about that. Many 555-#### numbers are various diagnostic systems.
>>?-)
>
>Nope. Except for directory assistance, the 555 prefix is reserved for
>"fake" phone numbers, as used in movies and videos.
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/555_(telephone_number)>

I hate when they use a 555 number in a movie. For gosh sakes, how
stupid would someone have to be to think the number they give in a
movie is really the number of someone like the character in the movie?
Calling those numbers should seem like calling random numbers. **

I also hate it when they remove t he rear-view mirrors of movie cars.
I've seen a few movies where they leave the rear view mirror and it
looks a lot better. It doesn't distract from the actors. It's a
much bigger distraction when it's not there.


On Law & Order, they always give the address of tte place they are
going. Often it's in the East River or Hudson River, but it still
indicates teh area they have in mind. Other times it would be in a
real block, residential even, but I assume the number they give is
between two real addresses. I have a good friend at W. 85th and
Columbus, and according to Law & Order, a lot goes on within a block
of her apartment.

[micky]

On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 18:22:31 -0800, josephkk
<joseph_...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

In grammar school, the phone guy told me the number to get it to ring
back. 1197 and 1191, but they don't work now where I live now.
Didnt' when I checked 30 years ago. They are very useful if one is
sick in bed and wants to call his mother. who is downstairs.

[Leif Neland]

Geoffrey S. Mendelson forklarede:

> micky wrote:
>>

> In my case it's not very useful, as the DSL portion of my phone service
> runs few hundred meters. It goes to a box somewhere near my home which
> converts the DSL and analog voice to fiber optics.
>
> That device is even smarter than you would expect, it opens its own
> trouble tickets with the phone company and sends me SMSs when it does
> or they are resolved.
>

I assume you mean the box down the road is alerting, not your
individual dsl boxes in the homes.

the box down the road is monitored from the central office,
where it is decided when an anomaly is turned into a ticket, and when
it is decided the problem is fixed, the sms'es are sent.

I don't think the box down the corner has any "free will" to generate
sms'es.

Of cause I could be wrong...

Leif



--
Husk kørelys bagpå, hvis din bilfabrikant har taget den idiotiske
beslutning at undlade det.

[Leif Neland]

Den 17/02/2013, skrev micky:
> On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 19:11:49 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 18:26:37 -0800, josephkk
>> <joseph_...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> How about that. Many 555-#### numbers are various diagnostic systems.
>>> ?-)
>>
>> Nope. Except for directory assistance, the 555 prefix is reserved for
>> "fake" phone numbers, as used in movies and videos.
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/555_(telephone_number)>
>
> I hate when they use a 555 number in a movie. For gosh sakes, how
> stupid would someone have to be to think the number they give in a
> movie is really the number of someone like the character in the movie?
> Calling those numbers should seem like calling random numbers. **
>

You would be amazed about the stupidity of people.

And if Dark Knight Rises grossed 1.1billion, average $10 per ticket,
and one in a million will call a number in a movie, that gives 1000
calls.

Would you like to get 1000 calls asking for Batman?

[Michael A. Terrell]

micky wrote:
>
> On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 19:11:49 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 18:26:37 -0800, josephkk
> ><joseph_...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >>How about that. Many 555-#### numbers are various diagnostic systems.
> >>?-)
> >
> >Nope. Except for directory assistance, the 555 prefix is reserved for
> >"fake" phone numbers, as used in movies and videos.
> ><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/555_(telephone_number)>
>
> I hate when they use a 555 number in a movie. For gosh sakes, how
> stupid would someone have to be to think the number they give in a
> movie is really the number of someone like the character in the movie?
> Calling those numbers should seem like calling random numbers. **

Some rock band in the mid '80s recorded a song with a real phone
number in it, and idiots all over the country were calling it. Since
they didn't give an area code, there were a lot of people being
harassed, some around the clock. Of course, what could you expect from
the MTV drones?

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

Leif Neland wrote:
> I assume you mean the box down the road is alerting, not your
> individual dsl boxes in the homes.

Yes, BUT. The router I have is roughly equivalent to a 2005
computer in terms of processor capability, RAM, offline storage
(ROM), IO (one USB port, 4 ethernet ports, one VDSL modem, one 802.11n
multichannel access point).

It can run three virtual internet sessions for tunneling, two for me,
one for a separate public network.

It can provide a disk server or a print server via the USB.

I expect it can't send SMSs because it has no cellular connection, but it
may well be able to use a channel on the DSL line private to the phone
company for sending trouble tickets, etc.

>
> the box down the road is monitored from the central office,
> where it is decided when an anomaly is turned into a ticket, and when
> it is decided the problem is fixed, the sms'es are sent.

Probably.

> I don't think the box down the corner has any "free will" to generate
> sms'es.

I don't know. My asterisk system has a cellular modem used as a phone
so I can receive and make calls and SMSs over the cellular network.
It can send me SMS's on its own.

Or to be more accurate, it COULD if I had anything programmed to triger
them. What I do have is set of PERL programs that run on a different
computer and when I run them, ssh into the asterisk system to send SMSs.

The other way, the asterisk system receives the SMS and emails it to me.

Note that some routers have USB ports programmed to connect to the cellular
network with modem sticks. I also have one of those used for emergency
backup.


I assume you could run DD-WRT on them and a stripped down Asterisk system
which could send SMS's based upon pre-programmed conditions (but not
free will, as in "I'm lonely. Please log into me".

[klem kedidelhopper]

On Feb 17, 12:54 pm, "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <g...@mendelson.com>
wrote:

Tommy Two Tone was the group, and that was the 80's song "8675309".
People all over the country had to get their numbers changed because
of that song.

Well I finally dug a path through the snow out to the interface and
plugged my laptop directly into into it using a 6 foot cable and guess
what? A 26.4K connection! So I called the phone company to complain,
and (it was Saturday) but the rep told me that she would run it by the
technician on Tuesday and get back to me, disturbingly adding that she
"wasn't sure if they could do anything about it". Then she further
disturbingly added the usual cover their asses statement that if it is
determined that there was no problem with the telephone company's
lines, "a service charge would apply".

Well this really pissed me off, and I told her that as far as I know
if I plugged into their interface and duplicated my problem then the
trouble is NOT premises related, it is THEIR's and therefore I cannot
be charged for a service call which they might make of their own
volition or of my request. Did I imagine that or is that a fact? I
added that if they sent a tech over I could easily demonstrate at the
interface that I can get a 45K connection on one line and only a 26.4K
connection on the other. I would take that service charge if I ever
got one to the PUC if I had to

What actually are my rights here? This is a business line. Is the
phone company "required" to provide me with a line that I can get full
dial up bandwidth on? Can I legally push this issue with them? Or can
they really turn around and say "sorry Charlie but we're providing you
with voice communications and we can't do anything about your dialup
speed issue. Lenny

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 18 Feb 2013 08:58:25 -0800 (PST), klem kedidelhopper
<captainvi...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Well I finally dug a path through the snow out to the interface and
>plugged my laptop directly into into it using a 6 foot cable and guess
>what? A 26.4K connection! So I called the phone company to complain,
>and (it was Saturday) but the rep told me that she would run it by the
>technician on Tuesday and get back to me, disturbingly adding that she
>"wasn't sure if they could do anything about it". Then she further
>disturbingly added the usual cover their asses statement that if it is
>determined that there was no problem with the telephone company's
>lines, "a service charge would apply".

They are required to inform you that charges may apply, even if they
are unlikely, just in case you want additional work done when they
arrive. That's because someone sued and won claiming that Ma Bell
didn't warn them that they would be charged for on premesis work.
Strictly speaking, if the telephone tech even steps into your house,
you could get a bill. I also know of one local tech that would claim
he did inside work, when the owner never let him in the house or was
away when the tech arrived. The solution is simple... don't let the
tech in the house if you don't want to pay.

>Well this really pissed me off, and I told her that as far as I know
>if I plugged into their interface and duplicated my problem then the
>trouble is NOT premises related, it is THEIR's and therefore I cannot
>be charged for a service call which they might make of their own
>volition or of my request. Did I imagine that or is that a fact? I
>added that if they sent a tech over I could easily demonstrate at the
>interface that I can get a 45K connection on one line and only a 26.4K
>connection on the other. I would take that service charge if I ever
>got one to the PUC if I had to

Nice try. I don't know how it works in your area, but in the Peoples
Republic of California, the PUC (public utilities commish) has
separated the voice monopoly and data portions of the operation. You
are guaranteed by the monopoly to have acceptable voice service. You
are NOT guaranteed to be able to use the line for data at anything
faster than 2400 baud. AT&T will make an effort to get it working to
V.32 (9600 baud), but no higher. The reason is not crappy wiring.
It's the large number of SLC, pair gain, and remote terminal systems
that have saved AT&T considerable expense by not requiring a metallic
pair back to the CO (central office). These are good for voice, but
will generally limit your modem connection to about 26Kbit/sec because
of the reduced bandwidth. If you want faster dialup, you'll need a
metallic pair. The only way I've found to guess if it's an SLC, Pair
Gain, or metallic pair is the frequency response test from the USR
modem that I previously mentioned.

>What actually are my rights here?

It depends on your state public utilities commission rules. What
state or country are you in? The rules might be available online.

>This is a business line. Is the
>phone company "required" to provide me with a line that I can get full
>dial up bandwidth on?

Not in California. Business lines actually have less "rights" than
consumer lines, even though you pay more.

>Can I legally push this issue with them?

Are you a lawyer? Do you have a large bank account? If not, I
suspect you may be tilting at windmills.

>Or can
>they really turn around and say "sorry Charlie but we're providing you
>with voice communications and we can't do anything about your dialup
>speed issue.

Yes, they can probably do exactly that. In California, if you
complain to AT&T about data speeds, they will instantly suggest you
buy their new and improved U-Verse data service (ADSL2+) and generally
ignore all modem complaints. This has been an occasional problem with
older credit card machines, that use dialup lines and internal modems.
The result is that the business owner gets burned for a new terminal
that does credit card verifications over the internet instead of
dialup.

[klem kedidelhopper]

On Feb 18, 12:26 pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Feb 2013 08:58:25 -0800 (PST), klem kedidelhopper
>

> Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

We're in New Hampshire. I don't know what the PUC rules are here
either except that it seems like the utilities, telephone as well as
electric have always seemed to have the PUC in their pockets. I think
that I might have an idea as to how to approach this problem though.
Several months ago I complained to the phone company about a strange
random "Boing Boing" sound on my lines that would come and go during a
conversation with someone. The noise was unpredictable, would usually
last about a minute, was almost deafening at times and could only be
heard by me and never by the person on the other end of the line. They
never could verify my complaint, I'm certain that they never fixed it
and it hasn't happened for awhile now. Perhaps I should remind them of
this "continuing" problem that I've been living with that has
apparently affected my dialup speed as well. Lenny.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 18 Feb 2013 10:35:08 -0800 (PST), klem kedidelhopper
<captainvi...@gmail.com> wrote:

>We're in New Hampshire. I don't know what the PUC rules are here
>either except that it seems like the utilities, telephone as well as
>electric have always seemed to have the PUC in their pockets.

Same as in most states. The regulators are now regulated by those
that they were assigned to regulate. The world turned upside down.

>Perhaps I should remind them of
>this "continuing" problem that I've been living with that has
>apparently affected my dialup speed as well.

When that fails, start here:
<http://www.puc.nh.gov/Consumer/complaint.htm>
I don't see anything on the site for datacomm complaints. This should
be a clue that they don't want to hear those.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com

Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[josephkk]

On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 19:09:20 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

Thanks. You warned me that they vary.

?-)

[klem kedidelhopper]

On Feb 19, 1:09 am, josephkk <joseph_barr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 19:09:20 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 18:22:31 -0800, josephkk
> ><joseph_barr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >>On Sat, 09 Feb 2013 22:10:47 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> >>wrote:
>

> >>>On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 00:29:42 -0500, micky <NONONOmis...@bigfoot.com>

The lady from telephone repair called me back this morning and told me
they will be coming out to my house tomorrow to do "some rewiring". I
asked if they'll need to get into my house to do this, (just to be
sure I knew what she was talking about) and she said no. I then asked
the 64,000 dollar question. "Will there be a charge for this"? And
again it was no. "They will be working on the wires on the road" I was
told. I'm assuming this means a different, (and hopefully better cable
pair). Interestingly she asked if I would be home. She said that
although I didn't have to be, there would be no way that the
technician would be able to tell if my dialup was improved unless we
plugged my laptop into the interface while he was there. I was
surprised that they would have no way to assess dialup capabilities of
a pots line. They must have to do this for DSL don't they? So why
couldn't they assess dialup? Lenny

[Michael A. Terrell]

klem kedidelhopper wrote:
>
> The lady from telephone repair called me back this morning and told me
> they will be coming out to my house tomorrow to do "some rewiring". I
> asked if they'll need to get into my house to do this, (just to be
> sure I knew what she was talking about) and she said no. I then asked
> the 64,000 dollar question. "Will there be a charge for this"? And
> again it was no. "They will be working on the wires on the road" I was
> told. I'm assuming this means a different, (and hopefully better cable
> pair). Interestingly she asked if I would be home. She said that
> although I didn't have to be, there would be no way that the
> technician would be able to tell if my dialup was improved unless we
> plugged my laptop into the interface while he was there. I was
> surprised that they would have no way to assess dialup capabilities of
> a pots line. They must have to do this for DSL don't they? So why
> couldn't they assess dialup? Lenny

They use test equipmet made to test phone lines. Usually a TDR, and
maybe a BER testset.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 19 Feb 2013 15:30:59 -0800 (PST), klem kedidelhopper
<captainvi...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I was
>surprised that they would have no way to assess dialup capabilities of
>a pots line. They must have to do this for DSL don't they? So why
>couldn't they assess dialup? Lenny

Locally, the DSL and POTS installers carry an Acterna/JDSU HST-3000
telecom tester. I used to have one (until it was stolen) so I'm
rather familiar with what it can do. Ethernet testing is built into
the base unit. There are plugins for various line types, including
POTS, ADSL, ADSL2+, T1, VoIP, fiber, and V.34 (33.6K) modems. However,
I don't think they have a V.42bis plugin (not sure). Whether the
installer actually knows how to use the tester is another horror
story. I've seen both extremes.
<http://www.jdsu.com/en-us/Test-and-Measurement/Products/a-z-product-list/Pages/hst-3000.aspx?rcode=hst>

Some of the DSL data of my friends and customers from this tester:
<http://dsl.11junk.com>

Sniff.... I miss my tester.

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>Whether the
> installer actually knows how to use the tester is another horror
> story. I've seen both extremes.
><http://www.jdsu.com/en-us/Test-and-Measurement/Products/a-z-product-list/Pages/hst-3000.aspx?rcode=hst>

I had a friend in the early 1970's who was a repair/install supervisor for
New Jersey Bell. If a new employee was able to tell if they could get a dial
tone by picking up the phone, they were assigned as repairmen.

The ones that could not were assigned as installers.

He always had far more installers than repairmen.

[klem kedidelhopper]

On Feb 20, 1:19 am, "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <g...@mendelson.com>
wrote:

> Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >Whether the
> > installer actually knows how to use the tester is another horror
> > story.  I've seen both extremes.

> ><http://www.jdsu.com/en-us/Test-and-Measurement/Products/a-z-product-l...>

>
> I had a friend in the early 1970's who was a repair/install supervisor for
> New Jersey Bell. If a new employee was able to tell if they could get a dial
> tone by picking up the phone, they were assigned as repairmen.
>
> The ones that could not were assigned as installers.
>
> He always had far more installers than repairmen.
>
> Geoff.
>
> --
> Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379
> Gung Hay Fat Choy! (May the new year be prosperous).

The telephone company came out and fixed the speed problem. The
repairman said that I have copper all the way to the CO now where I
hadn't before. I'm only two miles from the CO, so I can't imagine what
my line previously went through to get from my house to the CO, but
anyway that part of the problem is now resolved. The most common
connection speed I've noticed now since this upgrade has been 49.20KBS
with the slowest connection sometimes at 45.0KBS. So now I have to
figure out what's going on with the ISP.

For the most part there is improvement, however it seems that at times
even though it appears that I have a good connection it constantly
disconnects me from the server, or the little green circle, (Windows
7) turns and doesn't seem to go anywhere. This is frustrating because
it's hard to tell what's going on. Sometimes when this is happening
I'll click on the connection icon and see the data changing so it
seems to be working but aside from what it says that I'm connected at,
at what speed?

Can the connection speed change while you're connected? I've tried
different local access number and some seem to be a bit better than
others but this is very hard to properly assess too. I would like to
take this up with the ISP but I feel that I might need to be armed
with some more information though. I'm just not sure of what sort of
information that should be or where or how for that matter I can get
it. Lenny

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 06:20:57 -0800 (PST), klem kedidelhopper
<captainvi...@gmail.com> wrote:

>For the most part there is improvement, however it seems that at times
>even though it appears that I have a good connection it constantly
>disconnects me from the server

Disable call waiting on your phone service. On most services, it's
dial *70 before placing the call. You can add it to your modem
dialing string. After the call is over, call waiting returns to
normal.

[klem kedidelhopper]

On Feb 24, 3:45 pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 06:20:57 -0800 (PST), klem kedidelhopper
>

> <captainvideo462...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >For the most part there is improvement, however it seems that at times
> >even though it appears that I have a good connection it constantly
> >disconnects me from the server
>
> Disable call waiting on your phone service.  On most services, it's
> dial *70 before placing the call.  You can add it to your modem
> dialing string.  After the call is over, call waiting returns to
> normal.
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann     je...@cruzio.com
> 150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com

> Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

We don't have call waiting or any other services like that that would
upset the line. What else could it be that I could suggest to the ISP?
Lenny

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 01:20:47 -0800 (PST), klem kedidelhopper
<captainvi...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Feb 24, 3:45�pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 06:20:57 -0800 (PST), klem kedidelhopper
>>
>> <captainvideo462...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >For the most part there is improvement, however it seems that at times
>> >even though it appears that I have a good connection it constantly
>> >disconnects me from the server
>>
>> Disable call waiting on your phone service. �On most services, it's
>> dial *70 before placing the call. �You can add it to your modem
>> dialing string. �After the call is over, call waiting returns to
>> normal.

>We don't have call waiting or any other services like that that would
>upset the line. What else could it be that I could suggest to the ISP?
>Lenny

Punch *70 anyway. If nothing happens, you don't have call waiting. If
there's a beep or delay, followed by dial tone, you have call waiting.
I've seen customers that have had this feature added "accidentally" by
Ma Bell, and never noticed or were never informed.

I still would like to see what your line looks like. If you have a
USR modem, try the procedure I outlined in:
<http://www.LearnByDestroying.com/aty11/aty11.htm>

As I vaguely recall from the days when modems were in fashion, most of
the disconnects were caused by problems with the calling computer or
modem. Software would try to take over the modem control and do a bad
job of it. There were various schemes to allow talking on the phone,
while not dropping the modem line using call waiting, that worked
about half the time, and dropped the call the other half. Also,
anything going through a private phone switch or switchboard would be
subject to dropping a call.

One of the AT commands returns the "last call statistics" which
includes which end of the connection initiated dropping the
connection. That might be worth trying. Something like this:
<http://modemsite.com/56k/diag3com.asp>
<http://modemsite.com/56k/diag.asp>
<http://modemsite.com/56k/trouble.asp>

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com

Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558