Cat6A pairs

[John Larkin]

This is CAT6A FUTP cable, overall shielded but not individually.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/SED/Hitachi_Pairs.JP

Notice the twist pitch difference. The skew spec is 45 ns max per
100M, and it looks to be in that range.




--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom laser drivers and controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME thermocouple, LVDT, synchro acquisition and simulation

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 31 May 2012 14:45:55 -0700, John Larkin
<jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>
>This is CAT6A FUTP cable, overall shielded but not individually.
>
>http://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/SED/Hitachi_Pairs.JP
>
>Notice the twist pitch difference. The skew spec is 45 ns max per
>100M, and it looks to be in that range.

Dropped a "G" somehow.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/SED/Hitachi_Pairs.JPG

"Dropbox" indeed.

Doesn't the insulation look a litte fatter on the upper pair?

[hamilton]

On 5/31/2012 4:14 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 31 May 2012 14:45:55 -0700, John Larkin
> <jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> This is CAT6A FUTP cable, overall shielded but not individually.
>>
>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/SED/Hitachi_Pairs.JP
>>
>> Notice the twist pitch difference. The skew spec is 45 ns max per
>> 100M, and it looks to be in that range.
>
> Dropped a "G" somehow.
>
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/SED/Hitachi_Pairs.JPG
>
> "Dropbox" indeed.
>
> Doesn't the insulation look a litte fatter on the upper pair?
>
>

Is there four pair in there ??

http://www.jack2rack.com/cat6-bulk-cable/augmented-10gbit/cat6a-plenum-v-10gs-23awg-bulk-cable-blue-1.html

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 31 May 2012 16:20:54 -0600, hamilton <hami...@nothere.com>
wrote:

Yup. There's an x-shaped plastic thing running down the middle that
keeps them a little bit apart. You can also buy CAT6A-U/FTP, which has
individually shielded pairs. I think people don't vary the twist pitch
on that, so the skew should be less.

I'm using CAT6A to send non-Ethernet digital data in a situation where
skew matters.

[Jamie]

That over twist in that one pair, is a manufacturing defect.

We make that product where I am employed. I wouldn't be surprised if it
came from us or one of our locations.

It's all about no scrap, no care, just get it out the door..

Jamie

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

On Thu, 31 May 2012 14:45:55 -0700, John Larkin
<jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>

>This is CAT6A FUTP cable, overall shielded but not individually.
>
>http://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/SED/Hitachi_Pairs.JP
>
>Notice the twist pitch difference. The skew spec is 45 ns max per
>100M, and it looks to be in that range.

You are unaware of the twist pitch difference in CAT6 spec?

Two are twisted less than the other two.

OR two are twisted tighter than the other two.

There is a reason, and it also means they have to be terminated
correctly or it doesn't work full bore.

You'll find that all the cable makers follow this spec. for CAT6.

But it being declared as UTP should mean that there is no shield at
all.

We have CAT6 cable that is shielded with foil, light braid, and a drain
wire, and it is most definitely not marked as UTP.

Must be if all it is is foil, it doesn't qualify as 'proper', spec
compliant shielding.

It is pretty wild how there are about ten different RG-6 offerings as
well, and I am not even talking about underground or carrier wire
versions.

I have one that is double braid shielded and the fitting barely is able
to be placed onto it. But man, it sure does scan out a lot nicer than
the cheaper stuff. Both Belden wire too. Big difference.


So when they declare right there on the wire what GHz it was test at,
they mean it. The 12GHz stuff is pretty damned good, and not all that
much more per foot.

That is just cheap RG-6 though. We have cables that are several
dollars per foot. Make all termination operations very carefully.

It is amazing how many different coaxial cable types arose from the
military sector. If it were not for our boys, the entire world's economy
would have been trashed 50 years ago.

That's OK. We'll let the greedy bastards on Wall Street or in
Washington filch our wallets for all that is left. There will have to be
some point where it becomes obvious that we are being screwed and they
know it and stand there non-chalantly whistling with a smirk.

And the bully beat goes on...

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

On Thu, 31 May 2012 15:14:11 -0700, John Larkin

<jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 31 May 2012 14:45:55 -0700, John Larkin
><jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>This is CAT6A FUTP cable, overall shielded but not individually.
>>
>>http://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/SED/Hitachi_Pairs.JP
>>
>>Notice the twist pitch difference. The skew spec is 45 ns max per
>>100M, and it looks to be in that range.
>
>Dropped a "G" somehow.
>
>http://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/SED/Hitachi_Pairs.JPG
>
>"Dropbox" indeed.
>
>Doesn't the insulation look a litte fatter on the upper pair?

Yes. It could even be a gauge larger as well.

Maker spec sheets refer to these particulars.

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 31 May 2012 20:11:48 -0400, Jamie
<jamie_ka1lpa_not_v...@charter.net> wrote:

>hamilton wrote:
>
>> On 5/31/2012 4:14 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 31 May 2012 14:45:55 -0700, John Larkin
>>> <jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is CAT6A FUTP cable, overall shielded but not individually.
>>>>
>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/SED/Hitachi_Pairs.JP
>>>>
>>>> Notice the twist pitch difference. The skew spec is 45 ns max per
>>>> 100M, and it looks to be in that range.
>>>
>>>
>>> Dropped a "G" somehow.
>>>
>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/SED/Hitachi_Pairs.JPG
>>>
>>> "Dropbox" indeed.
>>>
>>> Doesn't the insulation look a litte fatter on the upper pair?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Is there four pair in there ??
>>
>> http://www.jack2rack.com/cat6-bulk-cable/augmented-10gbit/cat6a-plenum-v-10gs-23awg-bulk-cable-blue-1.html
>>
>>
>>
>That over twist in that one pair, is a manufacturing defect.

The pair twist pitch difference is deliberate in Cat6A-F/UTP, with
only an overall shield. Different pairs have different twists to
reduce crosstalk.

On CAT6A-U/FTP cable, the pairs are individually shielded, so they can
make them all the same twist without a crosstalk penalty. The result
is about 1/4 as much timing skew compared to the cable without
individual shielding... numbers like 12 ns/100m as compared to 45.

My customer bought a *lot* of the wrong cables. I warned them, several
times, that skew could kill this system.

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 31 May 2012 17:42:38 -0700, Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers
<thesli...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

>On Thu, 31 May 2012 14:45:55 -0700, John Larkin
><jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>This is CAT6A FUTP cable, overall shielded but not individually.
>>
>>http://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/SED/Hitachi_Pairs.JP
>>
>>Notice the twist pitch difference. The skew spec is 45 ns max per
>>100M, and it looks to be in that range.
>
>
> You are unaware of the twist pitch difference in CAT6 spec?
>
> Two are twisted less than the other two.
>
> OR two are twisted tighter than the other two.

We did see two pairs that had one prop delay, and two pairs that had a
different delay. Numbers like 145, 148, 155, and 158 ns in a 30m
cable.

>
> There is a reason, and it also means they have to be terminated
>correctly or it doesn't work full bore.
>
> You'll find that all the cable makers follow this spec. for CAT6.
>
> But it being declared as UTP should mean that there is no shield at
>all.

The Hitachi that I took the pics of is marked F/UTP on the data sheet
and jacket. I agree, "UTP" should mean Unshielded Twisted Pair, but it
seems like it doesn't.

>
> We have CAT6 cable that is shielded with foil, light braid, and a drain
>wire, and it is most definitely not marked as UTP.
>
> Must be if all it is is foil, it doesn't qualify as 'proper', spec
>compliant shielding.
>
> It is pretty wild how there are about ten different RG-6 offerings as
>well, and I am not even talking about underground or carrier wire
>versions.
>
> I have one that is double braid shielded and the fitting barely is able
>to be placed onto it. But man, it sure does scan out a lot nicer than
>the cheaper stuff. Both Belden wire too. Big difference.
>
>
> So when they declare right there on the wire what GHz it was test at,
>they mean it. The 12GHz stuff is pretty damned good, and not all that
>much more per foot.
>
> That is just cheap RG-6 though. We have cables that are several
>dollars per foot. Make all termination operations very carefully.
>
> It is amazing how many different coaxial cable types arose from the
>military sector. If it were not for our boys, the entire world's economy
>would have been trashed 50 years ago.

I once started to make a list of coaxial connectors, starting with
UHF, BNC, N.... and gave up around 50 or so.

[Jamie]

Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers wrote:

> On Thu, 31 May 2012 14:45:55 -0700, John Larkin
> <jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>
>
>>This is CAT6A FUTP cable, overall shielded but not individually.
>>
>>http://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/SED/Hitachi_Pairs.JP
>>
>>Notice the twist pitch difference. The skew spec is 45 ns max per
>>100M, and it looks to be in that range.
>
>
>
> You are unaware of the twist pitch difference in CAT6 spec?

That is true however, that twist looks a little over twisted.
our brand does not offset the twist that much. It would be
interesting to see if that is consistent through out the spool/Box.

And a lot of this is vender specific as to how they construct
the inners to meet the specs.

If memory serves, one of the variants my employer sells has
2 pairs twisted left hand,verses the other two right hand.
I am not exactly sure the reason behind this, I think it has something
to due with the cable coiling up. It may also have something to due with
electrical specs in cross talk, I am sure it must have some effects on it.

I know that we have one line where I am, they oscillate the cable
leads as they are being bunched just prior the extrusion. This is to
keep the cable from coiling when they pull it off the real.

Jamie

[Martin Riddle]

"John Larkin" <jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in message
news:d94gs7pd9b8j3qvli...@4ax.com...

I don't think Cat5 has the different twist for each pair. Is Cat5 (e)
usable in this case?

Cheers

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

On Thu, 31 May 2012 16:20:54 -0600, hamilton <hami...@nothere.com>
wrote:

>Is there four pair in there ??

Yes. It has a plastic "Plus sign" shaped rib running through it. It
keeps the 4 twisted pairs segregated from each other. It makes for a
more uniform manufacture process, as well as a more uniform finished
product. Usually nice and round shaped all along its length with few
'bumps' or perturbations.

Examining a bundle of ten or twenty short cut lengths is a good way of
eyeballing the quality of the mfg processes used on each. Quality or
appearance in some cases as the jacket conforms to an ugly but quite high
quality signal-wise cable. Of course looking at a single piece at a time
yields a lot of info too.

We must have 60 different kinds in our PN system and in stock too!

I like the Teflon jacketed, silver plated copper, shielded twisted
pair, 22Ga. stuff. They are individual pairs, so four of them can be
used for short (test chassis) runs without detriment.

A lot easier to terminate with mil connector contacts too.

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

On Thu, 31 May 2012 20:11:48 -0400, Jamie
<jamie_ka1lpa_not_v...@charter.net> wrote:

>That over twist in that one pair, is a manufacturing defect.

You're an idiot.

Two of the pairs in the quad set that make up a CAT6 wire have a
tighter twist than the other two.

[John Larkin]

I don't know. I specified CAT6A, individually shielded, for minimum
crosstalk and minimum skew.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat5e

The difference between 5 and 5e isn't clear, but it sounds like both
are unshielded and both have different pair twists, the worst of both
worlds.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators

Custom timing and laser controllers

Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links

VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

On Thu, 31 May 2012 18:03:26 -0700, John Larkin
<jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>The Hitachi that I took the pics of is marked F/UTP on the data sheet
>and jacket. I agree, "UTP" should mean Unshielded Twisted Pair, but it
>seems like it doesn't.
>

I got it now. It is the "F". For "FOIL", of course!

Not shielded per se, by some standards, hence the U moniker.

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

On Thu, 31 May 2012 21:17:54 -0400, "Martin Riddle"
<marti...@verizon.net> wrote:

>

It isn't "for each pair".

It is one twist for two pairs and another twist for the other two
pairs.

And CAT5e DOES also follow the spec.

[John Larkin]

Geez, F/UTP means "foil-shielded unshielded twisted pairs."

So CAT6A-U/FTP is "unshielded foil shielded twisted pairs"

There is a certain twisted (pun!) logic there. The thing to the left
of the slash is the jacket, and the thing to the right refers to the
insides.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc

www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators

Custom timing and laser controllers

Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links

[Jamie]

What an idiot...

You're like a lot of know everything and never get out, around here.

Me? I am actually employed at a place where they make the stuff and
it is done on machines I was part of designing.

Yes, we have a special machine that makes a variant of that product
that skews the twist offset. In the end, propagation errors in
synchronous application isn't seen like it would be in the product you
think you know so much about.

But in reality, any form of CAT wire is crap any ways. We also put
in left and right twist lays in some of them, by customer request to
help keep the cable from looping. But then again, you wouldn't know.

Jamie

[Jamie]

http://www.belden.com/techdatas/english/8164.pdf

You are just being cheap about it. CAT wire is the last thing I would
be using for anything other than ethernet. It's crap, and a fast get it
the door product. Quality is not the biggest interest with that line.

The PDF is something like we use but if you can the solid strand
product like this, it'll be a little faster.

Btw. You may need to spend some money.. Mouser happens to have a lot
of that PN# at the moment.. And I am sure if you had a large enough
order, our company could make you anything you wanted.

Jamie

[John Larkin]

The customer specified the cabling.

CAT wire is the last thing I would
>be using for anything other than ethernet. It's crap, and a fast get it
>the door product. Quality is not the biggest interest with that line.

CAT6 cabling is perfectly reasonable for lots of non-Ethernet uses.
The PCB connectors are common and standardized, you can buy
connectorized cables anywhere, the combination is reliable, the
connectors are nice and small.

There are 16 here:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/PCBs/TEM2_Rear.jpg

in a nice, compact array.

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

On Fri, 01 Jun 2012 11:35:46 -0400, Jamie
<jamie_ka1lpa_not_v...@charter.net> wrote:

>Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 31 May 2012 20:11:48 -0400, Jamie
>> <jamie_ka1lpa_not_v...@charter.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>That over twist in that one pair, is a manufacturing defect.
>>
>>
>>
>> You're an idiot.
>>
>> Two of the pairs in the quad set that make up a CAT6 wire have a
>> tighter twist than the other two.
>
> What an idiot...
>
> You're like a lot of know everything and never get out, around here.

Try to utilize (and then write using) complete sentences, idiot.

Two pairs have one level of twist. The other two have another level of
twist.

One set of pairs is more twisted than the other set.

Try to grasp that fact, child.

One set of pairs is twisted less than the other set.

Simple math and logic, but I thought I'd spell it out for you.

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

On Fri, 01 Jun 2012 11:35:46 -0400, Jamie
<jamie_ka1lpa_not_v...@charter.net> wrote:

> Me? I am actually employed at a place where they make the stuff and
>it is done on machines I was part of designing.

Oh boy!

Massa Wiah Twistah Boi!

I was twisting wire before you even knew what "electricity" was that
'made your TV work' when you were physically a boy, boy.

Come back when your mental age actually gains about 10 years.

I tire easily of twelve year old mentalities.

At the rate you "advance" however, you'll be 95 years old before you
turn 19.

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

On Fri, 01 Jun 2012 11:35:46 -0400, Jamie
<jamie_ka1lpa_not_v...@charter.net> wrote:

> Yes, we have a special machine that makes a variant of that product
>that skews the twist offset. In the end, propagation errors in
>synchronous application isn't seen like it would be in the product you
>think you know so much about.

You are apparently the one here who thinks you know so much about the
COMMUNICATIONS spec from being a mere WIRE BOY for a few years.

The SPEC uses it. Period. Get a clue. Been that way (the twist pith
differences) since CAT5 and CAT6 follows the practice.

The pairs, in fact, all four have a different twist pitches and if your
machine does not fine resolve the twist pitch, then it is a piece of shit
machine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_5_cable

They are all four different, and by 'general' appearance they look like
two pairs at one pitch and two at another.

They are close to that, but are actually all slightly different in a
fully conformal manufacturing process.

I have seen vendor data sheets which declare it and have tables for it
even, while offering older spec wire all twisted the same as well.

If you hook up the old stuff (or likely your shit), you will not get a
full 100 base T handshake, much less anything faster. Even my new std
cable modem blinks a different color on the front panel indicators if I
use a shit cable to link to it.

We used shrouded connectors at work and shielded CAT6 wire and insure
that the twists remain right up to the connector header and crimp the
drain into the shroud. The receptacle has to be shrouded CAT6 as well
and the internal cable on the other (back)side of that bulkhead as well,
if that is what it is plugged into.

I make clean, high speed EYE. AND I know why.

You make fuzzy, spur laden EYE. Because you don't even know what
one has to do to RETAIN CAT6 compliance throughout a circuit path. The
ENTIRE path.

You don't even have part of the clue. The ENTIRE clue.

But you probably know how to make the wire twisting machine twist wire.

You just likely have no clue how accurate the twisting has to be. That
is based on your pathetic responses.

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

On Fri, 01 Jun 2012 11:35:46 -0400, Jamie
<jamie_ka1lpa_not_v...@charter.net> wrote:

>

> But in reality, any form of CAT wire is crap any ways. We also put
>in left and right twist lays in some of them, by customer request to
>help keep the cable from looping. But then again, you wouldn't know.
>
>Jamie

So YOU are the fucking retard who ass backward twists pairs of wire!

Solid is OK, but if you pull that stupid shit with stranded, you
actually stress the wire within the jacket. But you wouldn't know
anything about that. You are so fucking stupid that you are the DOPEY
FUCK THAT DOES IT!

[Jamie]

What a moron... A complete ignoramus. I wonder what the rest
of your family looks like? Most likely all four legged.

Jamie

[Jamie]

Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers wrote:

> On Fri, 01 Jun 2012 11:35:46 -0400, Jamie
> <jamie_ka1lpa_not_v...@charter.net> wrote:
>
>
>> Yes, we have a special machine that makes a variant of that product
>>that skews the twist offset. In the end, propagation errors in
>>synchronous application isn't seen like it would be in the product you
>>think you know so much about.
>
>
>
> You are apparently the one here who thinks you know so much about the
> COMMUNICATIONS spec from being a mere WIRE BOY for a few years.

Blahhhhhh , Blahhhh, Noise , Noise. All Random. You can't even decide
if it's white, or pink today..

Why don't you go back home, your mother forgot to dress you. You
forgot to take off the lipstick and dress you were fantasizing in last
night.

Look up Brand-Rex+Bcc-Brand-Rex- BCC-General and General Cable.

If you look hard enough, you may even find a picture of me sitting in
one of the groupies..

Go play with your crap products. We actually make products that work
better than others. There is a reason for that. But you wouldn't know it
if it was staring at you.

Maybe you should come and visit us, I'll introduce you to one of our
irradiation units set on 3Mev and make sure you get a good look at the
scan horn.

What a hopeless case..

Jamie

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 00:50:14 -0400, Jamie
<jamie_ka1lpa_not_v...@charter.net> wrote:

>
> Look up Brand-Rex+Bcc-Brand-Rex- BCC-General and General Cable.

No thanks. Especially if your 'expertise' is part of their 'formula'
for success.

>
> If you look hard enough, you may even find a picture of me sitting in
>one of the groupies..

Not interested in looking at a photo, trying to find the dung heap in
it.

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 00:50:14 -0400, Jamie
<jamie_ka1lpa_not_v...@charter.net> wrote:

>

> Go play with your crap products.

Hahahaa.... We ARE the cutting edge of technology.
The chip with the backdoor problem actually DOES affect our business.
But a dope like you probably didn't read that thread, and couldn't grasp
the impact if your life depended on it (oh... it does).

> We actually make products that work

I have serious doubts if they are counting on your wisdom.

>better than others. There is a reason for that. But you wouldn't know it
>if it was staring at you.

Our products do not have series/models which are downgrades from the
premium version.

Since we push the highest data rates, it isn't about "better than
others". It MUST be the lowest cost variety that DOES comply with the
spec needed to fulfill the task. At times, that is the top grade
materiel available.

SINCE you "make this kind of wire", AND you spout off about the twist
scenario NOT being the way I stated that it is, I have no problem
declaring that you do not know a goddamned thing about the products your
company makes that extends past making the machine run smoothly.
A poorly informed machine operator essentially is what you are. ALL you
are.

The spec clearly calls for different twists on each pair in the set.
You lose. Hands down. Brass tacks. Any way one looks at it.

In the same way that the author of PING tested link distances, these
allow systems to test for where a fault is located, among other
optimizations.

http://ftp.arl.mil/~mike/ping.html

> Maybe you should come and visit us,

You could never get placed on my approved vendor list, and I do not
need a visit to arrive at that decision.

> I'll introduce you to one of our
>irradiation units set on 3Mev and make sure you get a good look at the
>scan horn.

I'll be sure to introduce you to some Pulonium-210 in such a way that
it nails your family as well. Your bloodline should not be in the gene
pool.

> What a hopeless case..

Blah, blah, blah indeed, motherfucker.

You spew the horseshit like above here, and you think you are
intelligent?

What you need is to eat lead at the very least.

A much better thing would be a video recorded vivisection, and
subsequent dowsing in alcohol or acid.

Then place YOU under your fucking scan horn and leave it on until your
pathetic hulk fully desiccates.

Let me come find you, you pathetic little threatening bitch! I'll put
you in a fucking prison cell!

[josephkk]

On Thu, 31 May 2012 21:17:54 -0400, "Martin Riddle"
<marti...@verizon.net> wrote:

>

Yes, it does. The twist differences are required by TIA-568. It is also
done with Cat3. Moreover, the twist of each pair is varied over the
length of the cable.

Usability for any given purpose is a different question.
>
>Cheers
>

[josephkk]

Cat 5E has about 60 percent more useful bandwidth.

?-)

[Jamie]

You should see the machine in operation that does that all in one pass !

Jamie

[Tom Del Rosso]

John Larkin wrote:
> This is CAT6A FUTP cable, overall shielded but not individually.
>
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/SED/Hitachi_Pairs.JP
>
> Notice the twist pitch difference. The skew spec is 45 ns max per
> 100M, and it looks to be in that range.

Is the skew mostly from the difference in the twist?

In an old logic analyzer they had about 10 or 20 feet of ordinary ribbon
cable used as a delay line.

Over 100M the difference in length due to the twist could be 45 feet.


--

Reply in group, but if emailing add one more
zero, and remove the last word.

[josephkk]

It would be a kick to see it live. I have seen videos of the building of
600 pair armored cat 3 cables.

?-)

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 3 Jun 2012 01:10:46 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
<td...@verizon.net.invalid> wrote:

>
>John Larkin wrote:
>> This is CAT6A FUTP cable, overall shielded but not individually.
>>
>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/SED/Hitachi_Pairs.JP
>>
>> Notice the twist pitch difference. The skew spec is 45 ns max per
>> 100M, and it looks to be in that range.
>
>Is the skew mostly from the difference in the twist?

Apparently so. The CAT6A-U/FTP (individually shielded pairs) has much
less skew. I assume they don't vary the twists on that version.

>
>In an old logic analyzer they had about 10 or 20 feet of ordinary ribbon
>cable used as a delay line.

That might just work!

>
>Over 100M the difference in length due to the twist could be 45 feet.

The spec is 45 ns per 100m, and we're measuring almost that on
CAT6A-F/UTP, so the equivalent delta-length is 30 feet or so. Awful
when skew matters.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators

Custom laser drivers and controllers

Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links

[Jamie]

600 Pairs is a lot.
Years ago when telephone wire was in we used to make the wire that
drops down in the ocean with very many pairs. If there was a defect on
that cable, it was repaired in house.

We'd find it with a fault analyzer and open the jacket. Fish down in
there with surgical tools and repair it.



Jamie

[Tom Del Rosso]

John Larkin wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Jun 2012 01:10:46 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
> <td...@verizon.net.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > In an old logic analyzer they had about 10 or 20 feet of ordinary
> > ribbon cable used as a delay line.
>
> That might just work!

It must have. Gould Biomation beat HP in that market at the time.

You mean it might work in your app? Glad I mentioned it.

Are alternate grounds enough to make up for the lack of twist? I guess so,
but my inexperienced intuition tells me there would be crosstalk.

They had the ribbon fan-folded and jammed in a tight space. I'm surprised
there were no ghost pulses as well.

Of course you could put foil on both sides before folding, but they didn't.

> > Over 100M the difference in length due to the twist could be 45
> > feet.
>
> The spec is 45 ns per 100m, and we're measuring almost that on
> CAT6A-F/UTP, so the equivalent delta-length is 30 feet or so. Awful
> when skew matters.

I first think of Grace Hopper who used 1-foot lengths of wire for her demo,
but that really is the speed in vacuum so 8 inches makes sense.

[whit3rd]

On Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:03:26 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

>
> I once started to make a list of coaxial connectors, starting with
> UHF, BNC, N.... and gave up around 50 or so.

Yeah, it's a LOT nicer when there's a standard for the connector.
SCSI, for example: I started making a list of those connectors,
and there were only ... eighteen. That was before SAS, of course.

[TunnelRat]

On Sun, 3 Jun 2012 20:31:26 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Thank God for, and long live SAS!!!

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 00:50:14 -0400, Jamie
<jamie_ka1lpa_not_v...@charter.net> wrote:

>

>Blahhhhhh , Blahhhh, Noise , Noise. All Random. You can't even decide
>if it's white, or pink today..

Says the total retard (must be) who actually works at a wire and cable
facility, yet is unaware of the fucking years old STANDARD.

You can't decide,because you are too fucking stupid to know what the
word choice means.

Talk about random noise.

Jamie Kallpa is a fucking electronics industry retard.

[Tom Del Rosso]

John Larkin wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Jun 2012 01:10:46 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
> <td...@verizon.net.invalid> wrote:
>
> > In an old logic analyzer they had about 10 or 20 feet of ordinary
> > ribbon cable used as a delay line.
>
> That might just work!

Do any experimenting with that idea?

[lang...@fonz.dk]

On 20 Jun., 19:29, "Tom Del Rosso" <td...@verizon.net.invalid> wrote:
> John Larkin wrote:
> > On Sun, 3 Jun 2012 01:10:46 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
> > <td...@verizon.net.invalid> wrote:
>
> > > In an old logic analyzer they had about 10 or 20 feet of ordinary
> > > ribbon cable used as a delay line.
>
> > That might just work!
>
> Do any experimenting with that idea?
>

look at the "fast" parallel ata cable that is, half the pitch of
standard
ribbon cable and half of the wires are ground

must be a decent transmission line for 66MHz data rate

-Lasse

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

They are commonly referred to as "differential pairs".

There are also twisted pair ribbon forms the SCSI boys used to use.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

AlwaysWrong, "half the wires grounded" is *not* the same as "differential
pairs". There is nothing "differential" about it.

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 08:41:58 -0400, "k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"
<k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

>>
>> They are commonly referred to as "differential pairs".
>
>AlwaysWrong, "half the wires grounded" is *not* the same as "differential
>pairs". There is nothing "differential" about it.
>
>> There are also twisted pair ribbon forms the SCSI boys used to use.

You are wrong.

Your brain is causing a reflection. It reflects your IQ as being 20.

[Tom Del Rosso]

Differential means an inverted signal is on one wire, not ground. If the
pairs are not twisted there is probably no advantage to making it
differential.

No reflection on IQ, honestly, but on maturity and sanity, yes.

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 11:02:48 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
<td...@verizon.net.invalid> wrote:

>
>Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 08:41:58 -0400, "k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"
>> <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>>
>> > >
>> > > They are commonly referred to as "differential pairs".
>> >
>> > AlwaysWrong, "half the wires grounded" is *not* the same as
>> > "differential pairs". There is nothing "differential" about it.
>> >
>> > > There are also twisted pair ribbon forms the SCSI boys used to
>> > > use.
>>
>> You are wrong.
>>
>> Your brain is causing a reflection. It reflects your IQ as being 20.
>
>Differential means an inverted signal is on one wire, not ground. If the
>pairs are not twisted there is probably no advantage to making it
>differential.
>
>No reflection on IQ, honestly, but on maturity and sanity, yes.

Differential signaling works fine on flat ribbon cable, LVDS or diff
PECL. The best pattern is GND SIG+ SIG- GND etc.

[Tom Del Rosso]

Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers wrote:
>
> Your brain is causing a reflection.

Oh, and, just in case that quip was meant to be apt, reflections are not
remedied by or relevant to differential signals.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 11:02:48 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
<td...@verizon.net.invalid> wrote:

>
>Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 08:41:58 -0400, "k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"
>> <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>>
>> > >
>> > > They are commonly referred to as "differential pairs".
>> >
>> > AlwaysWrong, "half the wires grounded" is *not* the same as
>> > "differential pairs". There is nothing "differential" about it.
>> >
>> > > There are also twisted pair ribbon forms the SCSI boys used to
>> > > use.
>>
>> You are wrong.
>>
>> Your brain is causing a reflection. It reflects your IQ as being 20.
>
>Differential means an inverted signal is on one wire, not ground. If the
>pairs are not twisted there is probably no advantage to making it
>differential.

Oh, there certainly is an advantage to both, independently.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 06:27:28 -0700, Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers
<thesli...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

>On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 08:41:58 -0400, "k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"
><k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> They are commonly referred to as "differential pairs".
>>
>>AlwaysWrong, "half the wires grounded" is *not* the same as "differential
>>pairs". There is nothing "differential" about it.
>>
>>> There are also twisted pair ribbon forms the SCSI boys used to use.
>
> You are wrong.

No, AlwaysWrong, you are *always* wrong. This is no exception. Differential
means the signal is composed of two opposite levels; a positive and negative
active component signal. A positive and ground, while useful, don't cut it as
"differential"; the receiver is still "single-ended", not differential.

> Your brain is causing a reflection. It reflects your IQ as being 20.

Again, you're AlwaysWrong but you knew that.

[John Larkin]

He is a good candidate for source termination.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

If only his mother knew...

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 11:02:48 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
<td...@verizon.net.invalid> wrote:

>
>Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 08:41:58 -0400, "k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"
>> <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>>
>> > >
>> > > They are commonly referred to as "differential pairs".
>> >
>> > AlwaysWrong, "half the wires grounded" is *not* the same as
>> > "differential pairs". There is nothing "differential" about it.
>> >
>> > > There are also twisted pair ribbon forms the SCSI boys used to
>> > > use.
>>
>> You are wrong.
>>
>> Your brain is causing a reflection. It reflects your IQ as being 20.
>
>Differential means an inverted signal is on one wire, not ground. If the
>pairs are not twisted there is probably no advantage to making it
>differential.
>
>No reflection on IQ, honestly, but on maturity and sanity, yes.

Opinions are like assholes. I have an opinion and an asshole, and
Keithkiethstain IS one.

What is the "difference" between ground (zero volts) and a signal line?

Are the "grounded" conductors grounded at both ends?

From 40 to 80. Sounds like pairings to me. Oh and look! The
crosstalk drops to ZERO! (FAIAP)

Reflect on that.

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 17:53:34 -0700, John Larkin
<jjSNIP...@highTHISlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>He is a good candidate for source termination.
>

Better start ALWAYS (one of your favorite words, you fucking retard)
looking over your shoulder, you fucking characterless, honorless retarded
fuck.

When I get done with you, I'll be arrested for spreading shit all over
the sidewalk.

Then get a prize for removing some from our industry.

Now, make another stupid fucking crank remark like that, you fucking
dumbfuck. I'll Zimmerman your fucking ass and go 'round the corner and
put some scratches on me so I can claim you were attacking me.

Go ahead, motherfucker. Make my day. Make another stupid threat.

[John Larkin]

I doubt you will physically attack me, especially after announcing it
in advance. But your endless anger and rage *will* age you and kill
you before your time.

Why do you rant and shriek at, basically, everybody?

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 20:53:44 -0700, John Larkin

<jjSNIP...@highTHISlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 20:45:59 -0700, Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers
><thesli...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 17:53:34 -0700, John Larkin
>><jjSNIP...@highTHISlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>
>>>He is a good candidate for source termination.
>>>
>> Better start ALWAYS (one of your favorite words, you fucking retard)
>>looking over your shoulder, you fucking characterless, honorless retarded
>>fuck.
>>
>> When I get done with you, I'll be arrested for spreading shit all over
>>the sidewalk.
>>
>> Then get a prize for removing some from our industry.
>>
>> Now, make another stupid fucking crank remark like that, you fucking
>>dumbfuck. I'll Zimmerman your fucking ass and go 'round the corner and
>>put some scratches on me so I can claim you were attacking me.
>>
>> Go ahead, motherfucker. Make my day. Make another stupid threat.
>
>I doubt you will physically attack me, especially after announcing it
>in advance.

Pretty stupid you saying that right after making remarks about my
demise.

Your ass is grass, BOY!

> But your endless anger and rage *will* age you and kill
>you before your time.

That is a retarded remarks for so many reasons.

1: me not angry, you fucking total retard.

2: When one dies it is ALWAYS that person's time, you stupid fuck.

>Why do you rant and shriek at, basically, everybody?

"rant and shriek"???

You can't even run a degreaser and you want to talk to me about
ranting. Priceless.

You are like a little bitch who wants to tell everyone what she is
wearing that day. No one cares that YOU think it is ranting and
shrieking. No one cares that you are too fucking stupid to make a valid
assessment about anyone or anything.

Stop making threats and you will not subsequently get them BACK IN YOUR
FACE, you retarded fuck!

You should be vivisected and then covered in flesh eating insect
larvae.

So go ahead and make another threat, motherfucker. But don't be
fucking surprised when it bites YOU in the ass for doing it.
Consider THAT a THREAT AND A PROMISE, LARKIN.

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 21:06:03 -0700, Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers

Do know what "source termination" actually means?

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 22:06:36 -0700, John Larkin

I was doing busses and SCSI and other such things likely even before
you were.

I can also glean the meaning in your retarded veiled remarks.

I hope you fucking gleaned my DIRECT fucking remarks, boy, because I
will put YOU in a fucking jail, motherfucker.

And the JUDGE and the JURY WILL see EXCATLY the same thing *I* saw.

You broke the fucking law, and all the fucking squirming in the world
will not get you free, boy.

[JW]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 20:22:30 -0700 Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers
<thesli...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote in Message id:
<b0p7u7ppf4k3r36bh...@4ax.com>:

>I have an opinion and an asshole

Yes, and both are evacuated here on a daily basis. From where I sit, I
can't tell the difference between them.

[JW]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 22:06:36 -0700 John Larkin
<jjSNIP...@highTHISlandtechnology.com> wrote in Message id:
<l8v7u7hv4jdq800um...@4ax.com>:

Shirley you can't be serious?

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

That's because your problem is that you ARE SHIT. So "where you sit"
doesn't matter because what you are sitting on is the same thing that you
are. We cannot tell the difference between YOU and the rest of the shit
here, regardless of who you think is spewing it, shithead.

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 05:58:32 -0400, JW <no...@dev.null> wrote:

>On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 22:06:36 -0700 John Larkin
><jjSNIP...@highTHISlandtechnology.com> wrote in Message id:
><l8v7u7hv4jdq800um...@4ax.com>:

>>Do know what "source termination" actually means?
>>
>
>Shirley you can't be serious?

I'd bet I was working with signal line terminations before you were
too, shithead.

[JW]

On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 05:15:46 -0700 Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers

<thesli...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote in Message id:

<6co8u7pro5jjbm870...@4ax.com>:

[FLUSH!]

Try using your toilet to crap in. You've left Usenet overflowing.

[Tom Del Rosso]

Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers wrote:
>
> What is the "difference" between ground (zero volts) and a signal
> line?

A signal changes. Ground doesn't. That sounds like a "difference."

This is a signal and ground:

0100100111010110
0000000000000000

This is a differential signal:

0100100111010110
1011011000101001

Although it is not a balanced line since it isn't at 1 exactly 50% of the
time. It would take more thought to construct a valid sequence for that.
Maybe someone can add to that since I don't have a complete and clear memory
of what a balanced line is.

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 02:33:15 -0700, Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers

Let's see...

The first serious source-terminated transmission line thing that I did
was in the summer of, I think, 1963 or maybe 1964. I was in school and
had a summer job at LSUNO, helping a prof do microwave spectroscopy,
for 85 cents an hour. They registered me as student number 20,000 so
that they could pay me. We had a long (like, 50 feet maybe) waveguide,
with a swept klystron at one end and a diode detector at the other.
We'd pump it down and then introduce a bit of some gas and look for
absorption lines. To make it more sensitive, it had a metal strip
running down the middle of the waveguide, and we'd apply a high
voltage square wave to that. The Stark effect would change the
resonant frequency of the absorption lines, which we could tease out
with a lockin amp.

The strip down the middle of the waveguide formed a coaxial
transmission line. We drove that with a few kilovolts square wave,
from a totem-pole driver. We had two drivers, one using thyratrons and
one hard tubes. The problem was that the Stark electrode would ring
like crazy and that would mess things up. The thyratrons didn't like
that either.

I got the drivers working right. Dr Beeson, like a lot of physicists,
was not all that interested in the electronics. The real breakthrough
was when I went to a ham radio shop and bought a big non-indictive
wirewound resistor (cost $3.40 as I recall) and stuck that between the
pulser and the waveguide. The spectral lines went from muddy to
stunning.

I was lucky. The other two interns spent the entire summer calculating
quantum rotational resonances on a pair of klunky Friden mechanical
calculators, all done in parallel to check for errors. The dinky
laptop that I'm typing on could have done all that work in one second.

That summer confirmed to me that I didn't want to be a physicist.

How about you? When did you first work with transmission lines and
terminations?

>
> I can also glean the meaning in your retarded veiled remarks.

It was a not-very-veiled pun.

>
> I hope you fucking gleaned my DIRECT fucking remarks, boy, because I
>will put YOU in a fucking jail, motherfucker.

Ooh, my pun hurt your feelings, and you will either physically attack
me, or call your lawyer. I suggest you call the lawyer first.

[George Herold]

On Jun 22, 9:50 am, John Larkin

The first time I did source termination (We didn't call it that.) was
at the Vandy FEL in the 90's. (I was just learning my counting
numbers in '63) We had a PMT on one side of the lab and the equipment
rack with amps, discriminators on the other. With ~20 feet of coax
strung between. We put 50 ohm termination where the coax entered the
amp. And then also added 50 ohms at the PMT. This was called (by us
physicists) "back termination". At the time my picture of this was
that the 50 ohms at the PMT stopped the second back reflection from
whatever piece of the pulse did not get sucked up by the first 50 ohms
at the amp input. But now I’m wondering if that picture was wrong?

Comments welcome,

George H.

>
>
>
> >  I can also glean the meaning in your retarded veiled remarks.
>
> It was a not-very-veiled pun.
>
>
>
> >  I hope you fucking gleaned my DIRECT fucking remarks, boy, because I
> >will put YOU in a fucking jail, motherfucker.
>
> Ooh, my pun hurt your feelings, and you will either physically attack

> me, or call your lawyer. I suggest you call the lawyer first.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Jamie]

Then you must know who "SHIRLEY TEMPLE" is..

Jackass.

Jamie

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 06:50:37 -0700, John Larkin
<jjSNIP...@highTHISlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>
>The first serious source-terminated transmission line thing that I did
>was in the summer of, I think, 1963 or maybe 1964.

Larkin is pushing 70!?

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 06:50:37 -0700, John Larkin
<jjSNIP...@highTHISlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>The strip down the middle of the waveguide formed a coaxial
>transmission line.

The same thing happens on an 80 conductor cable where the signals all
act like they are encapsulated in grounded (read shielded) "trenches".

Kind of hard to inject into the next line over when that next line is
ground.

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

I am not as old as you are, but I do understand properly, simple
concepts like 'vapor phase' cleansing processes.

You can't even get that simple process down... at all.

And I never worked for 85 cents an hour.

I think GE paid around $1.50 an hour at that time.

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

You are a retard, not a punster. Go back to your pathetic, dirty
circuit assemblies.

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 20:26:34 -0400, Jamie
<jamie_ka1lpa_not_v...@charter.net> wrote:

> Jackass.

Your sig fits you perfectly, you fucking jackass.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 20:22:30 -0700, Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers
<thesli...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

>On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 11:02:48 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
><td...@verizon.net.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>>Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers wrote:
>>> On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 08:41:58 -0400, "k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"
>>> <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>>>
>>> > >
>>> > > They are commonly referred to as "differential pairs".
>>> >
>>> > AlwaysWrong, "half the wires grounded" is *not* the same as
>>> > "differential pairs". There is nothing "differential" about it.
>>> >
>>> > > There are also twisted pair ribbon forms the SCSI boys used to
>>> > > use.
>>>
>>> You are wrong.
>>>
>>> Your brain is causing a reflection. It reflects your IQ as being 20.
>>
>>Differential means an inverted signal is on one wire, not ground. If the
>>pairs are not twisted there is probably no advantage to making it
>>differential.
>>
>>No reflection on IQ, honestly, but on maturity and sanity, yes.
>
> Opinions are like assholes. I have an opinion and an asshole,

Of course. One comes from the other.

> and Keithkiethstain IS one.

Aren't you clever?

> What is the "difference" between ground (zero volts) and a signal line?



> Are the "grounded" conductors grounded at both ends?

Irrelevant. If it's grounded it is *NOT* differential.

> From 40 to 80. Sounds like pairings to me. Oh and look! The
>crosstalk drops to ZERO! (FAIAP)

The noise margin is only half that of a differential signal.

> Reflect on that.

AlwaysWrong is wrong, again. <yawn>

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 17:43:29 -0700, Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers
<thesli...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

>On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 06:50:37 -0700, John Larkin
><jjSNIP...@highTHISlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>How about you? When did you first work with transmission lines and
>>terminations?
>>
>
> I am not as old as you are, but I do understand properly, simple
>concepts like 'vapor phase' cleansing processes.

But not transmission lines. You probably took offense at "series
termination" because you'd never heard the term.

>
> You can't even get that simple process down... at all.

It works fine. We've cleaned maybe 20 million dollars worth of boards
with that machine.

>
> And I never worked for 85 cents an hour.

This was in New Orleans, at a small college, and I was about 15. I
didn't expect to be paid at all.

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 21:28:45 -0700, John Larkin
<jjSNIP...@highTHISlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>
>But not transmission lines. You probably took offense at "series
>termination" because you'd never heard the term.
>>

You didn't use the term, dipshit.

You said "source" termination. And I do know the difference and am
familiar with the nomenclature.

You, however, cannot even remember from what day to the next, what spew
comes forth from your pea brain.

Fuck off, child.

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 21:28:45 -0700, John Larkin
<jjSNIP...@highTHISlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>
>It works fine. We've cleaned maybe 20 million dollars worth of boards
>with that machine.

I'd bet that a VOC test chamber would find that your claim of "clean"
isn't.

A device a dipshit like you obviously has never used.

[John Larkin]

No, that's fine. Double termination really squashes residual
reflections. It does cost half your signal amplitude. When Tek
developed the 7104 1 GHz microchannel-plate scope, there was a debate
over whether to single or double terminate the interconnects. Double
termination won, getting waveform quality up at the expense of
gain-bandwidth.

We use source termination a lot on PC boards, like from an ADC to an
FPGA. It reduces the load that a chip sees by 2:1 AC, and infinitely
at DC.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom timing and laser controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 09:12:05 -0700, Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers
<thesli...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

>On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 21:28:45 -0700, John Larkin
><jjSNIP...@highTHISlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>But not transmission lines. You probably took offense at "series
>>termination" because you'd never heard the term.
>>>
>
> You didn't use the term, dipshit.
>
> You said "source" termination. And I do know the difference and am
>familiar with the nomenclature.

Cool. What's the difference between source termination and series
termination?

[Jasen Betts]

messing up a 10-base-2 LAN doesn't count.

--
⚂⚃ 100% natural

--- Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net/ - Complaints to ne...@netfront.net ---

[Tom Del Rosso]

John Larkin wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 09:12:05 -0700, Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers
> <thesli...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 21:28:45 -0700, John Larkin
> > <jjSNIP...@highTHISlandtechnology.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > But not transmission lines. You probably took offense at "series
> > > termination" because you'd never heard the term.
> > > >
> >
> > You didn't use the term, dipshit.
> >
> > You said "source" termination. And I do know the difference and am
> > familiar with the nomenclature.
>
> Cool. What's the difference between source termination and series
> termination?

I'd like to know too. Series R?

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 22:16:28 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
<td...@verizon.net.invalid> wrote:

>
>John Larkin wrote:
>> On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 09:12:05 -0700, Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers
>> <thesli...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:
>>
>> > On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 21:28:45 -0700, John Larkin
>> > <jjSNIP...@highTHISlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > > But not transmission lines. You probably took offense at "series
>> > > termination" because you'd never heard the term.
>> > > >
>> >
>> > You didn't use the term, dipshit.
>> >
>> > You said "source" termination. And I do know the difference and am
>> > familiar with the nomenclature.
>>
>> Cool. What's the difference between source termination and series
>> termination?
>
>I'd like to know too. Series R?

Creepy Crawler is the self-declared expert. We'll wait for his
explanation.

[Tom Del Rosso]

John Larkin wrote:
>
> Creepy Crawler is the self-declared expert. We'll wait for his
> explanation.

Oh absolutely. That's what I had in mind.

But source termination is obvious. It's series that makes me wonder, since
the name implies an impedance mismatch.

[WoolyBully]

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 22:49:36 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
<td...@verizon.net.invalid> wrote:

>
>But source termination is obvious. It's series that makes me wonder, since
>the name implies an impedance mismatch.
>

I guess you never matched an antenna.

You lose.

[WoolyBully]

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 19:29:00 -0700, John Larkin
<jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

>
>Creepy Crawler is the self-declared expert. We'll wait for his
>explanation.
>

You are the retard who used the term, DUMBFUCK!

[Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers]

On 22 Jun 2012 22:49:14 GMT, Jasen Betts <ja...@xnet.co.nz> wrote:

>On 2012-06-22, Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers <thesli...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 05:58:32 -0400, JW <no...@dev.null> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 22:06:36 -0700 John Larkin
>>><jjSNIP...@highTHISlandtechnology.com> wrote in Message id:
>>><l8v7u7hv4jdq800um...@4ax.com>:
>>
>>>>Do know what "source termination" actually means?
>>>>
>>>
>>>Shirley you can't be serious?
>>
>> I'd bet I was working with signal line terminations before you were
>> too, shithead.
>
>messing up a 10-base-2 LAN doesn't count.

I worked with the original Tandy designed Arclight system, jackass.

You were looking in the mirror when you made your retarded little bitch
post.

I know more about networks and networking than you do to.

My gateways are in US cities from Alaska to Hawaii to Maine.

So you too are nothing more than a total LOSER, BettTard!

[John Larkin]

You don't understand any of this, do you?

[Jasen Betts]

On 2012-06-24, Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers <thesli...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:
> On 22 Jun 2012 22:49:14 GMT, Jasen Betts <ja...@xnet.co.nz> wrote:
>
>>On 2012-06-22, Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers <thesli...@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 05:58:32 -0400, JW <no...@dev.null> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 22:06:36 -0700 John Larkin
>>>><jjSNIP...@highTHISlandtechnology.com> wrote in Message id:
>>>><l8v7u7hv4jdq800um...@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>>>Do know what "source termination" actually means?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Shirley you can't be serious?
>>>
>>> I'd bet I was working with signal line terminations before you were
>>> too, shithead.
>>
>>messing up a 10-base-2 LAN doesn't count.
>
> I worked with the original Tandy designed Arclight system, jackass.
>

Arclight is a satellite thing from Viasat.

Perhaps you meant Arcnet except that was designed by Datapoint. Perhaps
you mean an unoriginal Tandy designed Arcnet system?

> My gateways are in US cities from Alaska to Hawaii to Maine.

I've got stuff on atleast 4 continents, but I don't brag about it.

[WoolyBully]

On 24 Jun 2012 05:23:53 GMT, Jasen Betts <ja...@xnet.co.nz> wrote:

>
>> My gateways are in US cities from Alaska to Hawaii to Maine.
>
>I've got stuff on atleast 4 continents, but I don't brag about it.

I wasn't bragging, dumbfuck. I was responding to a retard who made a
retarded remark.

Just like I did here.

And yes, asswipe, all you do is brag.

[WoolyBully]

On 24 Jun 2012 05:23:53 GMT, Jasen Betts <ja...@xnet.co.nz> wrote:

>> I worked with the original Tandy designed Arclight system, jackass.
>>
>
>Arclight is a satellite thing from Viasat.

Arcnet, idiot.

[John Larkin]

What was the physical layer like on Arcnet? What sort of protocols did
it use?

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 21:51:05 -0700, John Larkin

<jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 20:37:13 -0700, WoolyBully
><Wooly...@arcticicemasses.org> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 19:29:00 -0700, John Larkin
>><jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Creepy Crawler is the self-declared expert. We'll wait for his
>>>explanation.
>>>
>> You are the retard who used the term, DUMBFUCK!
>
>You don't understand any of this, do you?

DimBulb isn't even bright enough to use Google.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 00:00:30 -0700, WoolyBully
<Wooly...@arcticicemasses.org> wrote:

Then why did you say "Arclight", AlwaysWrong?

[pirlam]

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 07:49:32 -0700, John Larkin
<jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 00:00:30 -0700, WoolyBully
> <Wooly...@arcticicemasses.org> wrote:


> >On 24 Jun 2012 05:23:53 GMT, Jasen Betts <ja...@xnet.co.nz> wrote:
> >
> >>> I worked with the original Tandy designed Arclight system,
jackass.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Arclight is a satellite thing from Viasat.
> >
> >
> >
> > Arcnet, idiot.




> What was the physical layer like on Arcnet? What sort of protocols
did
> it use?

ARCNET's physical layer is quite versatile. It can be on RS485, fiber
optic or even transformer coupled twisted pair. All that at anything
from a few bps to 10Mbps. The transport layer protocol IS ARCNET
which is a token ring type network protocol. You can put whatever
other protocol on top of that for your specific application needs.
It's main attraction is that, being a token ring, it's deterministic.
I.e. a node can determine when it will get the next token based on
how many nodes are on the network.
There are drawbacks too, just like any other network technology.

[WoolyBully]

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 07:49:32 -0700, John Larkin
<jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 00:00:30 -0700, WoolyBully
><Wooly...@arcticicemasses.org> wrote:
>
>>On 24 Jun 2012 05:23:53 GMT, Jasen Betts <ja...@xnet.co.nz> wrote:
>>
>>>> I worked with the original Tandy designed Arclight system, jackass.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Arclight is a satellite thing from Viasat.
>>
>>
>>
>> Arcnet, idiot.
>
>
>What was the physical layer like on Arcnet? What sort of protocols did
>it use?

40 volts on the line.

Proprietary.

Ended up as TCNS in some ways, which I also had occasion to work with
while in Denver in '92. At the time, TCNS was in the top three on the
heap. Over $100 each card was pretty expensive in '92 dollars, and
buying 50 of them got you no discounts either. 40 nodes went in, and 10
were spares.

Ran DesqViewX on that network, which was the coolest thing at the time,
because IF you ran TCP/IP, it would allow you to perform a process on
another, idle machine from your desktop. The first "distributed process"
capacity on PCs.

Sadly, Bill and his cronies reneged on their agreement to provide
Quarterdeck with the full win32 API. And that pretty much killed
DesqViewX.

Still A very cool OS to run on an old box or network. The problem was
finding cards which did have the TCP'IP protocols available to them. TCNS
was one such provider.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 08:36:34 -0700, WoolyBully

<Wooly...@arcticicemasses.org> wrote:

>On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 07:49:32 -0700, John Larkin
><jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 00:00:30 -0700, WoolyBully
>><Wooly...@arcticicemasses.org> wrote:
>>
>>>On 24 Jun 2012 05:23:53 GMT, Jasen Betts <ja...@xnet.co.nz> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I worked with the original Tandy designed Arclight system, jackass.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Arclight is a satellite thing from Viasat.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Arcnet, idiot.
>>
>>
>>What was the physical layer like on Arcnet? What sort of protocols did
>>it use?
>
> 40 volts on the line.
>
> Proprietary.

Hmm, pirlam says otherwise. Who to believe...

<goalpost shift snipped>

[WoolyBully]

No he didn't. Not many folks were doing optical then, and most folks
who went with the cheaper Arcnet did so over copper on a token ring
configuration.

It eventually did utilize non-proprietary protocols, but they
started out absolutely proprietary.

Note when I said I worked with it. Right at the start-up, in Cincinnati.
Now ask him where some of the early development took place, and see if he
is familiar with any of it being there.

> Who to believe...

Fuck off, retard boy.

><goalpost shift snipped>

TCNS IS what they ended up as, dumbfuck. Not that you could grasp such
a concept.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 09:39:04 -0700, WoolyBully
<Wooly...@arcticicemasses.org> wrote:

>On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 12:12:34 -0400, "k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"
><k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 08:36:34 -0700, WoolyBully
>><Wooly...@arcticicemasses.org> wrote:
>>
>>>>What was the physical layer like on Arcnet? What sort of protocols did
>>>>it use?
>>>
>>> 40 volts on the line.
>>>
>>> Proprietary.
>>
>>Hmm, pirlam says otherwise.
>
> No he didn't. Not many folks were doing optical then, and most folks
>who went with the cheaper Arcnet did so over copper on a token ring
>configuration.

So RS-485 is proprietary, AlwaysWrong?

> It eventually did utilize non-proprietary protocols, but they
>started out absolutely proprietary.
>
> Note when I said I worked with it. Right at the start-up, in Cincinnati.
>Now ask him where some of the early development took place, and see if he
>is familiar with any of it being there.

How much floor sweeping can a startup have?

>> Who to believe...
>
> Fuck off, retard boy.
>
>><goalpost shift snipped>
>
> TCNS IS what they ended up as, dumbfuck. Not that you could grasp such
>a concept.

Which is irrelevant to your attempted goalpost shift, DimBulb.

[WoolyBully]

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 13:06:08 -0400, "k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"
<k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

>So RS-485 is proprietary, AlwaysWrong?

You are not following very well.

The first answer line was about physical layers.

The second was about protocols.

The same way he posted his query, dumbfuck.

RS-485 is not a protocol, it is on the physical layer.

"Proprietary" refers to the protocol used.

You lose, again, K_Retard_W.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 10:29:47 -0700, WoolyBully
<Wooly...@arcticicemasses.org> wrote:

>On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 13:06:08 -0400, "k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"
><k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>
>>So RS-485 is proprietary, AlwaysWrong?
>
> You are not following very well.
>
> The first answer line was about physical layers.

Oh, RS-485 isn't a physical layer, AlwaysWrong?

> The second was about protocols.

> The same way he posted his query, dumbfuck.

Did I say anything about protocols, AlwaysWrong?

> RS-485 is not a protocol, it is on the physical layer.

DimBulb, it's you who isn't "following very well".

> "Proprietary" refers to the protocol used.

You were asked about the physical layer, Dimmie.

> You lose, again, K_Retard_W.

Always wrong, AlwaysWrong.

[WoolyBully]

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 13:39:16 -0400, "k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"
<k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

>On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 10:29:47 -0700, WoolyBully
><Wooly...@arcticicemasses.org> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 13:06:08 -0400, "k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"
>><k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>>
>>>So RS-485 is proprietary, AlwaysWrong?
>>
>> You are not following very well.
>>
>> The first answer line was about physical layers.
>
>Oh, RS-485 isn't a physical layer, AlwaysWrong?

You STILL missed YOUR mistake. I answered the first question ABOUT the
physical layer, dipshit. The SECOND line of my answer was about the
protocol, which YOU took incorrectly.

SO the ERROR is yours, you abject fucking idiot.

>
>> The second was about protocols.
>
>> The same way he posted his query, dumbfuck.
>
>Did I say anything about protocols, AlwaysWrong?

Read the post I responded to, idiot. The answer you made your retarded
post about WAS about protocols, IDIOT!

>
>> RS-485 is not a protocol, it is on the physical layer.
>
>DimBulb, it's you who isn't "following very well".

You can't slither out of it, idiot. YOU fucked up, because you cannot
read.

>> "Proprietary" refers to the protocol used.
>
>You were asked about the physical layer, Dimmie.

Wrong. I was asked, by John, about BOTH, dumbfuck.

My response was about BOTH, you fucking total retard.

So, YOU are the illiterate dipshit. And that will never change.

Compared to my "bulb's" 'dimness', you are as dark as the universe was
before the big bang.

You are a fucking laughable joke, at best. Learn to read, idiot.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 11:03:26 -0700, WoolyBully

<Wooly...@arcticicemasses.org> wrote:

>On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 13:39:16 -0400, "k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"
><k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 10:29:47 -0700, WoolyBully
>><Wooly...@arcticicemasses.org> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 13:06:08 -0400, "k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"
>>><k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>>>
>>>>So RS-485 is proprietary, AlwaysWrong?
>>>
>>> You are not following very well.
>>>
>>> The first answer line was about physical layers.
>>
>>Oh, RS-485 isn't a physical layer, AlwaysWrong?
>
> You STILL missed YOUR mistake. I answered the first question ABOUT the
>physical layer, dipshit. The SECOND line of my answer was about the
>protocol, which YOU took incorrectly.

"40 Volts on the line" isn't RS-485, either, AlwaysWrong. ...and it is not
proprietary.

> SO the ERROR is yours, you abject fucking idiot.

AlwaysWrong is always so wrong.

>>> The second was about protocols.
>>
>>> The same way he posted his query, dumbfuck.
>>
>>Did I say anything about protocols, AlwaysWrong?
>
> Read the post I responded to, idiot. The answer you made your retarded
>post about WAS about protocols, IDIOT!

AlwaysWrong.

>>> RS-485 is not a protocol, it is on the physical layer.
>>
>>DimBulb, it's you who isn't "following very well".
>
> You can't slither out of it, idiot. YOU fucked up, because you cannot
>read.

Always wrong.

>>> "Proprietary" refers to the protocol used.
>>
>>You were asked about the physical layer, Dimmie.
>
> Wrong. I was asked, by John, about BOTH, dumbfuck.

And you said it was proprietary. Wrong!

> My response was about BOTH, you fucking total retard.
>
> So, YOU are the illiterate dipshit. And that will never change.

AlwaysWrong is always wrong, of course.

> Compared to my "bulb's" 'dimness', you are as dark as the universe was
>before the big bang.

Do you still believe a 100W heater will put out more heat than a 100W light
bulb?

> You are a fucking laughable joke, at best. Learn to read, idiot.

Learn to think, Dimmie. <like that's going to happen>