Electric blankets, Gratuitous complexity??

[Existential Angst]

OK.....

So ahm happier'n'a alcoholic workin the night shift in a Jack Daniels
distillery.... with my 400# deep cycle battery, 1500 W inverter (sitting
in the back seat of m'truck), and my brand new blue electric
blankey-poo.....
Now I can curl up in a fetal position -- in m'truck -- in compleat toasty
comfort.....

Now, don't ax me WHY I gotta curl up in a fetal position -- in m'truck.
Just suffice it to say, if you had my yob, you'd be curling up in a fetal
position in YOUR truck, too.

Except for one thing.....
My g-d electric blankeypoo dudn't WORK with my 1500 W fukn inverter!!!!!
WTF??????

And the reason quickly became clear: some electronics don't work with
modified (read: shit) sine wave power.
But, what electronics are in a g-d electric blanket???

So I take apart the three-heat controller, and lo and behold, the goddamm
thing looks like the motherboard of a small PC.... holy shit.... for a
$25 blankeypoo????

Tryna sleuth out the ""circuitry"" of this electric blanket reminds me of
the two days I spent tryna fix a $2.00 flashlight.... unsuccessfully....
holy shit....
The blanket has three wires between it and the controller, but only two of
the wires register continuity!! From which I surmised, via advanced Ohm's
Law, that there is only one element in the blanket, and the controller
actually does control voltage/current, ie, no switching among elements, cuz,
well, there's only one element.
.
AND, the resistance is in fact the "right" resistance, cuz the wattage is 60
W (1/2 amp), and the ohms measure 230.

So now I got an extree wire that I don't know wtf it does, amidst my awe of
all this goddamm gratuitous complexity.

Now, I do have an inkling surrounding this latest Conspiracy of Gratuitous
Complexity -- whose fundamental purpose is, of course, to assfuck the entire
Global Population up to their collective ileocecal valves, so that Orwell
looks like summer fukn camp.
It appears that this particular example (this blue electric blanket) of
Gratuitous Complexity has to do with..... <shudder> <shudder> SAFETY!!!!!
And of course the li'l CHILDREN.......

Btw, a brief digression:
You DO know that they now make crawling helmets for toddlers??? Yes
indeedy, google helmets for babies crawling , and pick your link.
Better yet, ORDER yours, right away, so's when you take the li'l future Wall
Street predator-to-be to Montessori for his (first) pre-school interview,
you'll be showing up correck.
You yourself and the spouse should also wear matching bicycle helmets, as
well, just to show Montessori that the whole Beaver family is indeed
correck.....

Back to this g-d blanket bidniss....
This shit blanket, for safety (it is UL listed btw), SHUTS OFF
automatically EVERY GODDAMM HOUR!!!!WTF?????

I mean, look, the g-d blanket is a *whole 60 effingW*!!!! My goddamm BODY
puts out more heat than that....
fyi, Your BMR of about 1 cal/min is actually nearly exactly 70 W of heat....
which is why 10 blustering assholes in a meeting room make the place so
goddamm hot.

So some dumb QA engineering fuckhead sed, Oh, OH, 60 W -- spread over **24
sq ft of g-d blanket**, no less -- is MUCH too dangerous!!!!
Sheeit, in that case, my 70 W of body heat puts me at risk for
self-immolation, right???

Fuuuuuuuck, they couldn't have timed it for 8 hours?? 6 hours???? 4
hours????? WTF???????

So now, some while after the blanket shuts off, I'll freeze my goddamm ass
off, have furtive nightmares, wake up, and flail around for the controller,
just to reset it.
So now I can't even g-d SLEEP worth a goddamm, in my fetal position -- and
if you knew how long it takes me to get in that fetal position (in m'truck),
you'd realize this is really a significant issue.

OK.... so NOW ahm gettin it:
SAFETY, and our precious li'l bratty g-d CHILDREN, require a solidstate
automatic safety controller. Shitty li'l dropping resistors, or a xsformer,
or split heating elements, just won't do it anymore.
Now, they got a g-d controller in a $25 electric blanket that could have
gotten Neil Armstrong to the g-d moon.

Well, let me tell you, no one, but NO ONE messes with Angst's fetal
position/sleep....

So I took that controller off (via the detachable connector) and
hard-wire-crimped a shit 18 ga wire with a shit 99c-store two-in-a-pack
unpolarized plug, so now's I got *60 uninterrupted W* of blazing power,
blasting thru my li'l blue blankeypoo. What a fukn triumph.....

My gripe against Gratuitous Complexity harks back to my erstwhile 1971
Datsun 510, which got better gas mileage than almost every effing car out
here today, ceptin Volts'n'Prius'n'shit, and mebbe that VW TDI motor....
AND, I could fix it my goddamm self.
And I think I drove around Hawaii about 25 g-d times in a Datsun B-210, on a
gallon of gas.

Now, cars are so fukn complicated.....

HOW COMPLICATED ARE THEY???????

Cars are so fukn complicated, that factory Toyoter mechanics make more money
than asshole college puhfessuhs..... AS THEY RIGHTLY SHOULD, cuz college
professors are just absolutely fukn useless. goodgawd..... What a sham
the college credit is, and a bankrupting sham at that.

Cars now weigh 50% more than in the 70s.... and you can't even adjust the
g-d IDLE!!!!
Well, you can, I spose, with a laptop and about $1,000 worth of g-d
programming.....

Part of the Conspiracy behind Gratuitous Complexity is, imo, the desire to
shut out the small entreepreeneer, bidnissman. A good fraction of the
people on these ng's could *make their own perfectly navigable electric
car*, with a welder, lathe, milling machine, some fukn batteries and a
motor. Or mebbe just a welder, drill press, and an angle grinder....
But fukn Chevrolet and Nisan barely got *their* electric cars out, the
regulatory ante is so goddamm high. Near $40K for a g-d electric motor and
a bunch of g-d batteries....

So, inyway, Angst finally has his new blue blankeypoo blazing away, and I'll
be fellatingly positioning myself in peaceful bliss tonite, in m'truck, with
my 400# marine battery/1500W inverter right behind my blissful head.

Oh shit, did I say "fellatingly"??? That would be "fetally", "fetally
positioning myself in peaceful bliss".....
--
EA

[Sylvia Else]

On 10/11/2012 11:01 AM, Existential Angst wrote:
> OK.....
>
> So ahm happier'n'a alcoholic workin the night shift in a Jack Daniels
> distillery.... with my 400# deep cycle battery, 1500 W inverter (sitting
> in the back seat of m'truck), and my brand new blue electric
> blankey-poo.....
> Now I can curl up in a fetal position -- in m'truck -- in compleat toasty
> comfort.....
>
> Now, don't ax me WHY I gotta curl up in a fetal position -- in m'truck.
> Just suffice it to say, if you had my yob, you'd be curling up in a fetal
> position in YOUR truck, too.
>
> Except for one thing.....
> My g-d electric blankeypoo dudn't WORK with my 1500 W fukn inverter!!!!!
> WTF??????
>
> And the reason quickly became clear: some electronics don't work with
> modified (read: shit) sine wave power.
> But, what electronics are in a g-d electric blanket???
>
> So I take apart the three-heat controller, and lo and behold, the goddamm
> thing looks like the motherboard of a small PC.... holy shit.... for a
> $25 blankeypoo????

It's probably a triac style dimmer circuit - likely the cheapest way of
making a three-heat electric blanket these days. It would indeed fail to
work with a modified sine-wave.

Sylvia.

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> fired this volley in
news:ag5ks6...@mid.individual.net:

> It would indeed fail to
> work with a modified sine-wave.
>

You'd have to explain that in a lot of detail for me to believe it.

Please do.

LLoyd

[Vic Smith]

On Fri, 9 Nov 2012 19:01:11 -0500, "Existential Angst"
<fit...@optonline.net> wrote:

>
>And the reason quickly became clear: some electronics don't work with
>modified (read: shit) sine wave power.

Well-known inverter - and cheap generator - gotcha.
I mentioned it in one of these "inverter" posts regarding furnace
control boards. Too bad you missed that.
Only way to avoid the gotcha is to pay up for pure sine wave.

[Sylvia Else]

Such circuits typically prevent current from flowing at all within a
half cycle, until a point is reached where the remainder of the half
cycle would deliver an amount of energy that would, if delivered over
the entire half cycle, represent the desired power. Once triggered, the
triac conducts until current drops below some smallish threshold.

A circuit designed to do that with a sine-wave is going to be somewhat
thrown by an input that is a modified sine-wave.

Sylvia.

[Jamie]

Or, just put a small transformer on the affected device.

Jamie

[Steve W.]

OR stick a small battery back-up like you use on a computer. They smooth
the AC and filter it as well.

--
Steve W.

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 9 Nov 2012 19:01:11 -0500, "Existential Angst"
<fit...@optonline.net> wrote:

>OK.....
>
>So ahm happier'n'a alcoholic workin the night shift in a Jack Daniels
>distillery.... with my 400# deep cycle battery, 1500 W inverter (sitting
>in the back seat of m'truck), and my brand new blue electric
>blankey-poo.....
>Now I can curl up in a fetal position -- in m'truck -- in compleat toasty
>comfort.....
>
>Now, don't ax me WHY I gotta curl up in a fetal position -- in m'truck.
>Just suffice it to say, if you had my yob, you'd be curling up in a fetal
>position in YOUR truck, too.

Know why a guy gets excited by a woman dressed in leather?

Because it makes her smell like a new truck.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom laser drivers and controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME thermocouple, LVDT, synchro acquisition and simulation

[Mark]

>    My g-d electric blankeypoo dudn't WORK with my 1500 W fukn inverter!!!!!
> WTF??????
>
> And the reason quickly became clear:  some electronics don't work with
> modified (read: shit) sine wave power.

I noticed the same thing during the recent power failure..

The electronically controlled electric blanket will not run on my
modified sine inverter.

I think the third wire might be connected to a thermistor or
temperature sensor in the blanket that the controller uses.

If you don't mind wrecking the controller, you could wire the heater
directly to the plug and use it on high... or wire in a switch with a
diode and have full and 1/2. That would also defeat the timer
function. Also beware this also might disable the overheat safety
feature. I'd include a thermal fuse if I was going to do that. It's
no fun waking up on fire.

I'm thinking about designing a filter that will round off the modified
sine enough so that the blanket can work with the inverter.

Mark

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> fired this volley in

news:ag5mgp...@mid.individual.net:

> Such circuits typically prevent current from flowing at all within a
> half cycle, until a point is reached where the remainder of the half
> cycle would deliver an amount of energy that would, if delivered over
> the entire half cycle, represent the desired power. Once triggered, the
> triac conducts until current drops below some smallish threshold.
>
> A circuit designed to do that with a sine-wave is going to be somewhat
> thrown by an input that is a modified sine-wave.
>

I'm fully aware of how SCR and Triac (or generically, Thyristor)
"dimmers" function, and how to build them (from scratch, without any
supplied schematic).

I'm also aware that a "modified sine wave" or "simulated sine wave" would
satisfy the needs of most of that type of circuit, with the exception
that the initial triggering and the the subsequent "near zero"-crossing
cutoff might occur late and early, respectively, from where they ought.

Such circuits don't work nicely on square waves, primarily because they
don't have time to properly turn off. There's usually some capacitance
in the gate circuit (sometimes driven by a diac) that prevents a very
rapid change from full voltage through zero to the opposite polarity
from lasting long enough below the quench voltage for the device to turn
off.

Such _can_ be the case with a simulated sine wave, where the voltage
might go from (say) +10V-0--10V on a square edge. But most inverter
companies realized a long (long) time ago that doing it that way causes
problems, so they switched (pun) to a waveform that stays at zero long
enough for such devices to turn off properly.

Only a really old, or really cheap Chinese inverter would not have that
feature. For all I know, he has both AND a cheap Chinese blanket that
didn't take into consideration the problems it might see on old Chinese
inverters.

But it's not the case that simulated sine wave inverters universally
cause problems with thyristor switches.

LLoyd

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 20:22:06 -0500, "Steve W." <csr...@NOTyahoo.com>
wrote:

The small standby UPS does no wave shaping when allowing the load to
run on "line " voltage - and most are, at best, modified sine wave
output.

[micky]

On Sat, 10 Nov 2012 11:19:15 +1100, Sylvia Else
<syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:

>On 10/11/2012 11:01 AM, Existential Angst wrote:
>> OK.....
>>

>> And the reason quickly became clear: some electronics don't work with
>> modified (read: shit) sine wave power.
>> But, what electronics are in a g-d electric blanket???
>>
>> So I take apart the three-heat controller, and lo and behold, the goddamm
>> thing looks like the motherboard of a small PC.... holy shit.... for a
>> $25 blankeypoo????
>
>It's probably a triac style dimmer circuit - likely the cheapest way of
>making a three-heat electric blanket these days. It would indeed fail to
>work with a modified sine-wave.
>
>Sylvia.

Maybe he can find a "vintage" electric blanket. on ebay or a thrift
store, pr criaigs list, or an "estate sale" (which iiuc is a big yard
sale when the parents or grandparents die. Mine certainly has no
electronics in it, just a thermostat that reads the air temperature,
not the blanket temp. I don't use mine every year -- probably only 5
or 10 --, but it's over 30 years old and working fine. I think his
modern style might be only 10 years old, or less.

I don't know what the new ones look like but my non-electronic
controller has a clear plastic dial with numbers from 1 to 10, and a
light underneath the dial that illuminates the number. If I try to
use over 1.5 it's too hot in a bedroom that is 65^F. . Iff I take
the metal back off the plastic case, it's clear how little is inside
of it. No circuit board.

Really older blankets might have a problem with low frequency
radiation. I'm not sure if that was ever decided to be dangerous
(causing cancer iirc after many years?) , but they changed the wiring
arrangement anyhow so that for every wiire going one direction,
there's a nearby wire going the other direction, to neutalize the
raidation. AFAIK that works. and it's probably present in any
blanket less than 20 or 15 years old.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

What he NEEDS is a 12 volt blankie. My baby brother has been a long
distance trucker across north america, from Alaska to Florida - and
has 12 volt mattress warmer and 12 volt electric blanket for YEARS.

Lost 'em both when he rolled the truck last year. Bust his neck too,
but he's back on the road - doing mostly short haul flatland driving
hauling crude - less than 2 years after the crash.

[micky]

On Fri, 9 Nov 2012 17:53:22 -0800 (PST), Mark <mako...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
>
>If you don't mind wrecking the controller, you could wire the heater
>directly to the plug and use it on high...

As I say above, in my experience high would be intolerably hot and
even half temp, 5 out of 10 would be too hot to take, I've never
used more than 2, but even in a truck cab with no other heat, I doubt
anything more than 3 would be tolerable. He could test that in
advance by using an extension cord from the house and sleeping in the
truck with the blanket at half-temp.

> or wire in a switch with a
>diode and have full and 1/2. That would also defeat the timer
>function. Also beware this also might disable the overheat safety
>feature. I'd include a thermal fuse if I was going to do that. It's
>no fun waking up on fire.

Really?

JK

[Michael A. Terrell]

micky wrote:
>
> Really older blankets might have a problem with low frequency
> radiation.

Very doubtful, considering that one cycle is 5000000 meters long.
That's 5,000 Kilometers or about 3106 miles. How big is that blanket?

[tm]

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:LYKdnWLgX8cYWgDN...@earthlink.com...

Well, if it has a poorly designed triac controller, it may radiate RFI.

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

"tm" <No_on...@white-house.gov> fired this volley in news:k7khim$at3$1
@dont-email.me:

> Well, if it has a poorly designed triac controller, it may radiate RFI.

Even well-designed ones do on the turn-on. Only a lot of down-line
choking and shielding will get it down to reasonable levels.

But it's not likely that the RFI emitted from a 1/2-amp controller would
emit enough to be harmful to tissue. Could screw up your pacemaker, I
guess...

Lloyd

[Michael A. Terrell]

Which wouldn't be low frequency.

[tm]

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:tvadnRooF-HbUADN...@earthlink.com...

Wouldn't that depend on your definition of "low frequency"? My AM radio is
low frequency :)

[micky]

Are you saying unless something is 3000 miles ong, it can't radiate
low frequency?. I don't think so. And if that were the case, then a
radio transmitter broadcasting at 600 KHz would require an antenna
that was a third of a mile long.

The question is not whether it can radiate, but whether the low
frequency is harmful. This was the controversy that also centered
around power lines, often just past the backyard of people's homes.
But you do remind me that most of the opinion, or maybe the consensus
arfter a few years, was that that was not harmful. By then electric
blankets had already been rediesigned, since they were much easier to
redesign than power lines. . But yes, they're no longer thought to
be a risk, I think. I'd forgotten.

[Paul Drahn]

Our old electric blanket died several years ago. It had the bimetalic
strip type control with the 0-10 dial. We loved it because we could turn
it on an hour before going to bed and the bed would be toasty warm when
we went to bed.

It died and we got a new one and it would not preheat the bed. We
returned it to the manufacturer and they said it was working fine, but
sent a new blanked anyway. New worked the same way.

I am convinced the thing knows when there is a body in the bed and when
there is not. It can be on for hours and the bed is still cold when we
go to bed. About 1/2 hour later, the blanket is warm, but we freeze
until then. Real POS design.

Paul

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

There ARE controllers that switch on the downward slope of the sine,
greatly reducung theRFI.

One thing for sure - an electric blanket sure plays havok with
magnetometers, like in electronic compases - and electronic gyros.

[micky]

On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 22:06:23 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

>

> What he NEEDS is a 12 volt blankie.

I didn't know thtey had such things, but
http://www.amazon.com/Heated-Fleece-Travel-Electric-Blanket/dp/B000V8QVX6
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Maxsa-Comfy-Cruise-12-Volt-Electric-Blanket-Navy-Blue/10756183

Onlly 25 dollars for each.

>My baby brother has been a long

They let babies drive trucks!

>distance trucker across north america, from Alaska to Florida - and
>has 12 volt mattress warmer and 12 volt electric blanket for YEARS.
>
>Lost 'em both when he rolled the truck last year. Bust his neck too,
>but he's back on the road - doing mostly short haul flatland driving
>hauling crude - less than 2 years after the crash.

Glad he's doing so well

[tm]

<cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:2omr98t4arl2kgo1k...@4ax.com...

It's best when they switch on the zero crossings.

[Michael A. Terrell]

tm wrote:
>
> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:tvadnRooF-HbUADN...@earthlink.com...
> >
> > tm wrote:
> >>
> >> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> >> news:LYKdnWLgX8cYWgDN...@earthlink.com...
> >> >
> >> > micky wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Really older blankets might have a problem with low frequency
> >> >> radiation.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Very doubtful, considering that one cycle is 5000000 meters long.
> >> > That's 5,000 Kilometers or about 3106 miles. How big is that blanket?
> >>
> >> Well, if it has a poorly designed triac controller, it may radiate RFI.
> >
> >
> > Which wouldn't be low frequency.
>
> Wouldn't that depend on your definition of "low frequency"? My AM radio is
> low frequency :)

Ok. 1500 KHz is near the top of the AM BC Band.
300,000,000/1,500,000 = 200 meters for one cycle. How big is that
blanket? :)

[Michael A. Terrell]

micky wrote:
>
> On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 22:18:39 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >micky wrote:
> >>
> >> Really older blankets might have a problem with low frequency
> >> radiation.
> >
> >
> > Very doubtful, considering that one cycle is 5000000 meters long.
> >That's 5,000 Kilometers or about 3106 miles. How big is that blanket?
>

> Are you saying unless something is 3000 miles long, it can't radiate
> low frequency?.


No, but has to be an appreciable fraction of a wavelength, or we
would be forced to use DC power for everything.

> I don't think so. And if that were the case, then a
> radio transmitter broadcasting at 600 KHz would require an antenna
> that was a third of a mile long.

No, it doesn't. AM BC band broadcast antennas are not a full
wavelength, and the aren't resonant at the transmit frequency. They all
use use L/C networks to make the tower work at the allocated frequency.
Some ATU are as large as the AM transmitter when the tower is difficult
to configure. It gets even worse with multiple tower arrays, and
different day/night patterns and transmit power authorizations. You
should have seen the ATUs at the VOA station in Bethany, Ohio. They
could put up to 500,000 watts of RF at any frequency from 2 to 30 MHz.
They had multiple antennas, and more than one a 50,000 transmitter was
switched to full power before the antenna was properly tuned, and wet
the wood support poles on fire.


I was a broadcast engineer at a number of radio & TV stations over the
decades.

> The question is not whether it can radiate, but whether the low
> frequency is harmful.


> This was the controversy that also centered
> around power lines, often just past the backyard of people's homes.

Very long power lines can radiate. That's wy there are regional
power grids across the US, and they are interconnected with HV DC.

> But you do remind me that most of the opinion, or maybe the consensus

> after a few years, was that that was not harmful. By then electric
> blankets had already been redesigned, since they were much easier to
> redesign than power lines. But yes, they're no longer thought to

[miso]

I think we are feeding a troll (original poster), but yes, it is stupid
to boost a voltage or go from AC to DC for a resistive heater. A company
that I will not embarrass (plus I forget the name) was using a DC/DC for
a heated stethoscope. [Hey Doc, do you keep that thing in the 'fridge?]
Far better to get a heating element of the right resistance. And from
what I hear, it is the speculum that needs heating.

BTW, I've been to the Jack Daniels factory. It is worth the tour. The
irony is the factory is located in a "dry" county, so you can't do any
tasting there. [See what happens when you let Bible thumpers get too
much power!] The factory is more like a college campus. Lots of
buildings surrounded by patches of green grass. The whiskey is aged in a
manner like you store explosives. The "bunkers" are away from the
factory and have a buffer zone so that all the stock won't be destroyed
should one site catch fire.

[tm]

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:CcCdnVraIvTgdADN...@earthlink.com...

Got to know the transmitter engineers at NSS Annapolis. 24 kHz at 1 million
watts. The ATU was in a building four stories tall.

A friend of mine and I were instrumental in saving the three 600 foot self
supporting towers on Greenbury Point at the Navy Academy property. The array
was called a modified Goliath Array. The main feed went to a central 1200
foot hot tower fed with four inch diameter litz cable. Six towers around the
central tower were 800 feet tall and made up a capacitance hat. The hat was
extended to the east to the three 600 foot towers.

Two water cooled Eimac tubes made the power. They were amazingly small,
maybe a foot tall. Cooled with deionized water in the anodes. A third tube
was between the two that could be switched in if one of the main tubes
failed.

It was really sad to see the site decommissioned. A little bit of our
history died.

[tm]

"miso" <mi...@sushi.com> wrote in message
news:k7kpn0$9rq$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

You fucking nitwit. That rule was made by a consensus of the local
community. It has no effect on you other than you couldn't get a free
handout of booze. Typical libtard. Maybe you can ask obozo for free whiskey.

[Michael A. Terrell]

That Bethany VOA site is now a stinking golf course.

[Gunner]

I was told that that last is indeed true. Something about internal
sensing of warmth. They now use carbon fiber strands to heat rather
than wires. I had one actually start burning over my feet, which woke
me up rather suddenly. And I had to put out the burning fur of one fo
the dogs who evidently had shorted out the wiring in his sleep. It was
a close thing. The replacement wouldnt get warm..preheat at all and
only would warm up like yours..after we were in bed. When I called the
manufacture..they gave me info (pre stroke) on how it works..and I
cant remember the details..but yeah...most of them dont preheat
anymore.

Gunner

--
""The Democratic constituency is just like a herd of cows. All you have
to do is lay out enough silage and they come running. That’s why I
became an operative working with Democrats. With Democrats all you
have to do is make a lot of noise, lay out the hay, and be ready to
use the ole cattle prod in case a few want to bolt the herd.

Eighty percent of the people who call themselves Democrats don’t have
a clue as to political reality.
What amazes me is that you could take a group of people who are hard
workers and convince them that they should support social programs
that were the exact opposite of their own personal convictions. Put a
little fear here and there and you can get people to vote any way you
want.

The voter is basically dumb and lazy. The reason I became a Democratic
operative instead of a Republican was because there were more
Democrats that didn’t have a clue than there were Republicans."
James Carvell, DNC operative

[Existential Angst]

<cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:vvgr98pjt01nl2ecj...@4ax.com...

I considered the 12V route -- blankets, heaters, seat warmers, all
available, couild use the same deep cycle batt.
But, I opted for 120 V stuff so I could use it inside the house as well as
in the truck.
But, the 12 V option might be better for some stuff. We'll see how it goes.

I'm going to experiment with foiled-up 100 W light bulbs for heat, as well.
Altho I also have a nice 9" Optimus parabolic heater, only 300 W -- don't
yet know how to gauge wattage requirements of a small space that is exposed
to the elements.

My hot-wired blanket now works, and as far as the risk of fire goes, even at
full blast, it's got a long long way to go before ignition... heh, famous
last words, eh?? LOL
--
EA

[mike]

snipped righteous rants etc...

Products are designed to produce the best perceived value by the most
customers...mitigated by applicable safety regulations.

People who like to sleep in their truck are not the target demographic
and never will be.
If you expect to sleep "outside the box", you need to pick your
electric blankets more carefully. Ranting won't help.

[Adrian Tuddenham]

Jamie <jamie_ka1lpa_not_v...@charter.net> wrote:

> Vic Smith wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 9 Nov 2012 19:01:11 -0500, "Existential Angst"
> > <fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
> >
> >

> >>And the reason quickly became clear: some electronics don't work with
> >>modified (read: shit) sine wave power.
> >
> >

> > Well-known inverter - and cheap generator - gotcha.
> > I mentioned it in one of these "inverter" posts regarding furnace
> > control boards. Too bad you missed that.
> > Only way to avoid the gotcha is to pay up for pure sine wave.
>
> Or, just put a small transformer on the affected device.

...or buy another blanket that is better designed.


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

cl...@snyder.on.ca fired this volley in
news:2omr98t4arl2kgo1k...@4ax.com:

> There ARE controllers that switch on the downward slope of the sine,
> greatly reducung theRFI.

Have you recently priced GTO triacs and SCRs? You won't find a turn-off
style controller at consumer prices.

LLoyd

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

"tm" <No_on...@white-house.gov> fired this volley in news:k7kogp$92f$1
@dont-email.me:

> t's best when they switch on the zero crossings.

It can't be a "duty cycle controller", and switch _only_ on the zero
crossings.

When a device only turns on and off at the AC zero crossings, we call it
a "wire".

LLoyd

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" <lloydspinsidemindspring.com> fired this volley in
news:XnsA1074E33CFABDll...@216.168.3.70:

> When a device only turns on and off at the AC zero crossings, we call
it
> a "wire".

Oh, and yes -- I know about those controllers that do switch only at the
zero-crossings, but then count cycles to accomplish duty cycle control.

Those are even more "gratuitously complex" than the others, but perhaps
they've gotten that sort of control down into the $0.80USD range. That's
about the price it would have to be to find its way into a consumer
electric blanket.

LLoyd

[tm]

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" <lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote in message
news:XnsA1074F4D41B31ll...@216.168.3.70...

A cheap pic could easily do that. It used to be a bi-metallic thermo
switch.

[Jim Wilkins]

<cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:prdr98tujur9ofk02...@4ax.com...
>...
> The small standby UPS does no wave shaping when allowing the load to
> run on "line " voltage - and most are, at best, modified sine wave
> output.

A UPS "modified sine wave" is a sequence of positive and negative
square pulses at 160 to 170V, with enough off time between them to
reduce the average (RMS?) voltage to 120V. I've seen the pulse width
increase at higher loads that pulled down the peak voltage.

An APC Smart-Ups has a pure sine output on battery.
https://www.apc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=165

Some of them can run off large external batteries without overheating.
Check the surplus stores for used ones. The downloadable manual shows
the simple but not obvious way to remove the old batteries.

I just discovered that the sensor-logging feature of HWiNFO32 v4.06
freeware can record the run time of an unattended laptop on its
battery, It captures the battery voltage, the power drain and the
estimated percent of remaining capacity, which will show a sudden drop
to empty if the battery's microcontroller IC needs to recalibrate
itself with a full discharge cycle.
http://www.hwinfo.com/

I use recording TV and displaying Internet weather radar as
representative high and moderate power applications to check UPS run
time. During an outage I wouldn't let it run idle on precious battery
power though that's the easiest measurement to make. The Event Log
will capture shutdown time.

I haven't tried yet, but it should also show when the UPS or inverter
powering the laptop plus your test load shuts off and the laptop
switches to internal battery.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:ZNGdnXCUbv92bgDN...@earthlink.com...

>
>
> That Bethany VOA site is now a stinking golf course.

It went the way of the American values it promoted.

[whoyakidding]

On Sat, 10 Nov 2012 02:48:29 -0500, "Existential Angst"
<fit...@optonline.net> wrote:


>My hot-wired blanket now works, and as far as the risk of fire goes, even at
>full blast, it's got a long long way to go before ignition... heh, famous
>last words, eh?? LOL

It sounds like you're on a parallel path to what I have in my
motorhome. It had 2 tired deep cycle batteries which I replaced and
added a third. If I remember right I have about 1kwh capacity to 50%.
I bought a 1000W true sine inverter on sale for $150. Now I have more
battery capacity for running the furnace heavily overnight when dry
camping in cold temperatures. And I don't have to use the generator
nearly so often. Even the inverter microwave is OK at half power.

In my rig the bedroom is at the back. It stays cool when the rest of
the coach is toasty. I've considered getting an electric blanket and
running it off the inverter and then turning down the furnace
thermostat overnight. I should break even on the battery use and come
out ahead on propane. One wrinkle is that the furnace has an outlet
into the holding tank compartment. If I run the furnace too little in
below freezing temperatures then I'd have to worry about the dump
valves freezing. I've traveled in the off season and my record so far
for being comfortable is 14 degrees Fahrenheit. Man the RV crowd
really thins out when it gets cold. :) If I get a chance to
experiment further I'll report here.

[Michael A. Terrell]

It should have been turned into a museum. That site had a huge impact
on W.W. II It went from an empty pasture, to the most up to date Short
Wave Radio transmitter site in a very short period. It fed news & music
to the world, and was a huge boost to morale.

[Mark Lloyd]

On 11/09/2012 06:01 PM, Existential Angst wrote:

[snip]

> My g-d electric blankeypoo dudn't WORK with my 1500 W fukn inverter!!!!!
> WTF??????
>

> And the reason quickly became clear: some electronics don't work with
> modified (read: shit) sine wave power.

> But, what electronics are in a g-d electric blanket???

I sometimes use a heating pad, for a heated seat. Many of those won't
work with an inverter.

[snip]

--
45 days until the winter celebration (Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"...your belief in God is merely an escape from your monotonous, stupid
and cruel life." [Krishnamurti]

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 10 Nov 2012 00:06:51 -0500, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 22:06:23 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
>>
>
>> What he NEEDS is a 12 volt blankie.
>
>I didn't know thtey had such things, but
>http://www.amazon.com/Heated-Fleece-Travel-Electric-Blanket/dp/B000V8QVX6
>http://www.walmart.com/ip/Maxsa-Comfy-Cruise-12-Volt-Electric-Blanket-Navy-Blue/10756183
>
>Onlly 25 dollars for each.
>
>>My baby brother has been a long
>
>They let babies drive trucks!

He turned 45 a couple weeks after the crash

>
>>distance trucker across north america, from Alaska to Florida - and
>>has 12 volt mattress warmer and 12 volt electric blanket for YEARS.
>>
>>Lost 'em both when he rolled the truck last year. Bust his neck too,
>>but he's back on the road - doing mostly short haul flatland driving
>>hauling crude - less than 2 years after the crash.
>
>Glad he's doing so well

Yea, he's only got less than 30 degrees total lateral movement, and
by the end od a day his neck is sore - but with convex mirrors on the
truck he's OK as long as he's carefull. Guess they figured it was
better to let him drive again than to try to retrain him for something
else.
Darn good driver. Other than being struck by lighning, a herd of
antelope, and about a hundred separate deer his record was very good
till he ditched and barrel rolled just west of Calgary 2 years ago May
24. Not sure how many million miles he and his little dog CB have
under thair belt - CB is 16 now and was on the road with him from the
time he was a pup antill about 6 months before the accident. (Jack
Russel /???? cross)

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 10 Nov 2012 00:28:53 -0500, "tm" <No_on...@white-house.gov>
wrote:

Which means either full on, half on, or off.

[Jim Thompson]

The county is now suggesting an increased tax, and Jack Daniels is
suggesting that it _can_ move and leave a bunch of unemployed :-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

[legg]

On Fri, 9 Nov 2012 19:01:11 -0500, "Existential Angst"
<fit...@optonline.net> wrote:

>OK.....
>
>So ahm happier'n'a alcoholic workin the night shift in a Jack Daniels
>distillery.... with my 400# deep cycle battery, 1500 W inverter (sitting
>in the back seat of m'truck), and my brand new blue electric
>blankey-poo.....
>Now I can curl up in a fetal position -- in m'truck -- in compleat toasty
>comfort.....
>
>Now, don't ax me WHY I gotta curl up in a fetal position -- in m'truck.
>Just suffice it to say, if you had my yob, you'd be curling up in a fetal
>position in YOUR truck, too.

Your job? Your truck? Your blanket?

Luxury.

RL

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

In residential lighting dimmers, Lutron turn-off dimmers are about
double the cost of the turn-on type - which is still reasonable.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 10 Nov 2012 08:51:39 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
<murat...@gmail.com> wrote:

><cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
>news:prdr98tujur9ofk02...@4ax.com...
>>...
>> The small standby UPS does no wave shaping when allowing the load to
>> run on "line " voltage - and most are, at best, modified sine wave
>> output.
>
>A UPS "modified sine wave" is a sequence of positive and negative
>square pulses at 160 to 170V, with enough off time between them to
>reduce the average (RMS?) voltage to 120V. I've seen the pulse width
>increase at higher loads that pulled down the peak voltage.
>
>An APC Smart-Ups has a pure sine output on battery.
>https://www.apc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=165

But a SmartUPS is not a standby - a Back-UPS is.

>
>Some of them can run off large external batteries without overheating.
>Check the surplus stores for used ones. The downloadable manual shows
>the simple but not obvious way to remove the old batteries.

That is not a "small standby UPS" by anyone's definition. It is an
online UPS - AKA dual conversion.

[Ken S. Tucker]

Switched wires radiate as per &E/&t (Maxwell's Eqns).
It's called sparks, and can nearly radiate all over the
radio+ spectrum.
Ken
PS: Wife & daughter used electric sheets prior to bed time.

[The Daring Dufas]

On 11/9/2012 9:58 PM, tm wrote:
>
> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

> news:tvadnRooF-HbUADN...@earthlink.com...

>>
>> tm wrote:
>>>
>>> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

>>> news:LYKdnWLgX8cYWgDN...@earthlink.com...

>>> >
>>> > micky wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Really older blankets might have a problem with low frequency
>>> >> radiation.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Very doubtful, considering that one cycle is 5000000 meters long.
>>> > That's 5,000 Kilometers or about 3106 miles. How big is that blanket?
>>>

>>> Well, if it has a poorly designed triac controller, it may radiate RFI.
>>
>>

>> Which wouldn't be low frequency.
>
> Wouldn't that depend on your definition of "low frequency"? My AM radio
> is low frequency :)

My frequency of urination is high. ^_^

TDD

[tm]

<cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:t08t98tkhvud1jdmh...@4ax.com...

So? You don't need a per cycle control. On-off every minute would be fine.
Or % of a minute.

[tm]

"The Daring Dufas" <the-dari...@stinky-finger.net> wrote in message
news:k7mauh$qt6$1...@dont-email.me...

You must be drinking Bud. :(

[Michael A. Terrell]

The Daring Dufas wrote:
>
> My frequency of urination is high. ^_^

But it has a very short wavelength! ;-)

[Michael A. Terrell]

Then the item is defective. It should have a snubber to reducew the
arcing.

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

"tm" <No_on...@white-house.gov> fired this volley in

news:k7mb45$t9n$1...@dont-email.me:

> So? You don't need a per cycle control. On-off every minute would be
> fine. Or % of a minute.

Yep. In that case, a simple self-heating bi-metal strip switch would do
it.

WOW! What an IDEA! Wait...

LLoyd

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> fired this volley in
news:6audnQ4o1dYFJQPN...@earthlink.com:

> Then the item is defective.

Likely as not, yes -- but the design, not the "item". Made of Chinalloy in
China.

LLoyd

[Tim Wescott]

On Sat, 10 Nov 2012 01:06:48 -0500, tm wrote:

> "miso" <mi...@sushi.com> wrote in message
> news:k7kpn0$9rq$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

>>I think we are feeding a troll (original poster), but yes, it is stupid
>>to boost a voltage or go from AC to DC for a resistive heater. A company
>>that I will not embarrass (plus I forget the name) was using a DC/DC for
>>a heated stethoscope. [Hey Doc, do you keep that thing in the 'fridge?]
>>Far better to get a heating element of the right resistance. And from
>>what I hear, it is the speculum that needs heating.
>>
>> BTW, I've been to the Jack Daniels factory. It is worth the tour. The
>> irony is the factory is located in a "dry" county, so you can't do any
>> tasting there. [See what happens when you let Bible thumpers get too
>> much power!] The factory is more like a college campus. Lots of
>> buildings surrounded by patches of green grass. The whiskey is aged in
>> a manner like you store explosives. The "bunkers" are away from the
>> factory and have a buffer zone so that all the stock won't be destroyed
>> should one site catch fire.
>>
>>
>>

> You fucking nitwit. That rule was made by a consensus of the local
> community. It has no effect on you other than you couldn't get a free
> handout of booze. Typical libtard. Maybe you can ask obozo for free
> whiskey.

You -- uh -- "brilliant wonderful person":

_All_ the rules we live under were made by consensus of the community --
local or national -- in which we live. Intrusive government is intrusive
government, whether it's reaching into your wallet, your drinking glass,
or your shorts.

Typical -- uh -- "extra-smart conservative". All government that you
agree with is good government, and all government that you disagree with
deserves some stupid made-up name. Maybe you can ask for zero taxes but
still have police and fire protection, and a paved road in front of your
house. I mean, that'll work -- right? Because the only money being
spent will be _government_ money, and that's limitless, right?

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

[Jim Thompson]

Sure. You heard the @#$% woman extolling Obama's "stash" :-(

[Michael A. Terrell]

Tim Tim Wescott wrote:
>
> Maybe you can ask for zero taxes but still have police and fire
> protection, and a paved road in front of your house.

The paved road in front of my house wasn't paid for or done by any
government agency. It was paid for by the developer, and the cost added
to the price of the empty lots. The residents maintain it, or not as
they choose on each street.

[Jim Thompson]

That's rare. The usual approach has the builder providing the initial
roads, water and sewer system, then maintenance becomes a city
function, paid for by taxes. "Residents maintain it, or not..."
invites slums.

[The Daring Dufas]

I've actually never consumed an alcoholic beverage in my life. I've
never had a beer, a shot of whiskey or even a glass of wine. Most
folks call me a liar but those who know me personally know my lack
of a taste for alcohol is true and that it has nothing to do with
religion. One of my blood pressure meds causes me to pee like Niagara
Falls. Plus, the caffeine in Diet Dew puts kidneys into overdrive. A
feller has to watch his figure, that's why I drink diet soft drinks. ^_^

TDD

[The Daring Dufas]

I've never been ashamed of my 1/4 wave whip. ^_^

TDD

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jim Thompson wrote:
>
> On Sat, 10 Nov 2012 18:13:58 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

> ?mike.t...@earthlink.net? wrote:
>
> ?
> ?Tim Tim Wescott wrote:
> ??
> ?? Maybe you can ask for zero taxes but still have police and fire
> ?? protection, and a paved road in front of your house.
> ?
> ?
> ? The paved road in front of my house wasn't paid for or done by any
> ?government agency. It was paid for by the developer, and the cost added
> ?to the price of the empty lots. The residents maintain it, or not as
> ?they choose on each street.

>
> That's rare. The usual approach has the builder providing the initial
> roads, water and sewer system, then maintenance becomes a city
> function, paid for by taxes. "Residents maintain it, or not..."
> invites slums.

The developer skipped town before he turned the roads over to the
county. There are no water or sewer lines, but the county won't take
over the roads, because they don't meet current standards for new
subdivisions. They insist on sidewalks and curbs, even though the roads
met the standards for the mid '60s when the subdivision was laid out &
first paved. They estimate over $10K per home, and a lot of them are
summer Snowbird homes who spend the winter in Florida on under $1000.

[Michael A. Terrell]

The Daring Dufas wrote:
>
> On 11/10/2012 2:25 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

> ?
> ? The Daring Dufas wrote:
> ??
> ?? My frequency of urination is high. ^_^
> ?
> ?
> ? But it has a very short wavelength! ;-)
> ?

>
> I've never been ashamed of my 1/4 wave whip. ^_^

You said it was a folded dipole! ;-)

[The Daring Dufas]

Well, there is that Slinky antenna. ^_^

TDD

[Michael A. Terrell]

The Daring Dufas wrote:
>
> On 11/10/2012 11:20 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> ?
> ? The Daring Dufas wrote:
> ??

> ?? On 11/10/2012 2:25 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> ?? ?

> ?? ? The Daring Dufas wrote:
> ?? ??
> ?? ?? My frequency of urination is high. ^_^
> ?? ?

> ?? ?
> ?? ? But it has a very short wavelength! ;-)
> ?? ?
> ??
> ?? I've never been ashamed of my 1/4 wave whip. ^_^
> ?
> ?
> ? You said it was a folded dipole! ;-)
> ?

>
> Well, there is that Slinky antenna. ^_^

New Slinkies are plastic. :(

[Jasen Betts]

On 2012-11-10, Mark <mako...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>    My g-d electric blankeypoo dudn't WORK with my 1500 W fukn inverter!!!!!
>> WTF??????
>>
>> And the reason quickly became clear:  some electronics don't work with
>> modified (read: shit) sine wave power.
>

> I noticed the same thing during the recent power failure..
>
> The electronically controlled electric blanket will not run on my
> modified sine inverter.
>
> I think the third wire might be connected to a thermistor or
> temperature sensor in the blanket that the controller uses.

it could just be a shield, an scr-controlled electric blanket would
otherwise radiate EMI something fierce.

> If you don't mind wrecking the controller, you could wire the heater
> directly to the plug and use it on high... or wire in a switch with a
> diode and have full and 1/2. That would also defeat the timer
> function. Also beware this also might disable the overheat safety
> feature.

it would probably be bad for the inverter too.

> I'm thinking about designing a filter that will round off the modified
> sine enough so that the blanket can work with the inverter.

an off-the-shelf line filter might do that.



--
⚂⚃ 100% natural

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---

[The Daring Dufas]

Some idiot probably got itself electrocuted with a metal one. O_o

TDD

[Michael A. Terrell]

Or tried to make an electric heater out of one. (

[David Lesher]

Mark <mako...@yahoo.com> writes:



>The electronically controlled electric blanket will not run on my
>modified sine inverter.

A friend is the lead engineer at a company that makes good-sized
industrial equipment's controllers. Said controllers have triacs
that turn on, and at zero-crossing, turn off. The value-add
is when/why they turn on.

At one location, a large non-urban facility, the units kept
literally blowing up. They'd come back with various boards,
wires and triacs no longer intact.

Field Circus had no clue. He finally went to Nowhereville
himself. Seems there was a 1200HP mixer with a chopper drive. It
bit such enormous chunks out of the plant power grid that at
certain mixer speeds, his gadget could never see the zero
crossing and thus did not turn off. And when they didn't turn
off, the magic smoke soon escaped.

Ooops....



--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[David Lesher]

Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> writes:

>> The paved road in front of my house wasn't paid for or done by any
>>government agency. It was paid for by the developer, and the cost added
>>to the price of the empty lots. The residents maintain it, or not as
>>they choose on each street.

>That's rare. The usual approach has the builder providing the initial
>roads, water and sewer system, then maintenance becomes a city
>function, paid for by taxes. "Residents maintain it, or not..."
>invites slums.

And often the city (or other municiplaity) charges large
up-front development fees to cover future costs. Up-front
because the developer too often creates a one-time corp. that
they abandoned when they had the buyer cash in hand.

Sorta-like all the Donald Trump projects where the victims too
late discovered he had no money in the hat; he was getting paid
a license fee for the use of his image.

[Jim Thompson]

On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 18:33:08 +0000 (UTC), David Lesher
<wb8...@panix.com> wrote:

>Mark <mako...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>
>
>>The electronically controlled electric blanket will not run on my
>>modified sine inverter.
>
>A friend is the lead engineer at a company that makes good-sized
>industrial equipment's controllers. Said controllers have triacs
>that turn on, and at zero-crossing, turn off. The value-add
>is when/why they turn on.
>
>At one location, a large non-urban facility, the units kept
>literally blowing up. They'd come back with various boards,
>wires and triacs no longer intact.
>
>Field Circus had no clue. He finally went to Nowhereville
>himself. Seems there was a 1200HP mixer with a chopper drive. It
>bit such enormous chunks out of the plant power grid that at
>certain mixer speeds, his gadget could never see the zero
>crossing and thus did not turn off. And when they didn't turn
>off, the magic smoke soon escaped.
>
>Ooops....

Sounds like natural gas furnace igniter that I was involved with (as
an expert witness).

Under normal operation it was to open the gas valve, run the ignition
coil, and "watch" for a flame. If flame didn't occur within a few
seconds, shut off the valve.

I was able to demonstrate (repeatedly) that noise occurring at the
right time on the AC line, due to HVAC controller SCR's, confused the
flame "watcher" and the gas valve was allowed to stay on with no
flame.

This happened at a Chicago school house over a weekend, filled the
whole place up with natural gas, but didn't blow ;-)

This case was settled without me even being deposed, once my report
was submitted... game over >:-}

[David Lesher]

Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> writes:

>>Field Circus had no clue. He finally went to Nowhereville
>>himself. Seems there was a 1200HP mixer with a chopper drive. It
>>bit such enormous chunks out of the plant power grid that at
>>certain mixer speeds, his gadget could never see the zero
>>crossing and thus did not turn off. And when they didn't turn
>>off, the magic smoke soon escaped.
>>
>>Ooops....

>Sounds like natural gas furnace igniter that I was involved with (as
>an expert witness).

His clue was when his scope could not trigger on the power line.

His solution was to red-line the mixer speed dial to NEVER run at the
RPM's that caused the grief. The plant was happy with that.

Plan B was to upgrade the power system feeding said plant....

[micky]

On Sat, 10 Nov 2012 13:42:17 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

>On Sat, 10 Nov 2012 00:06:51 -0500, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 22:06:23 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>>> What he NEEDS is a 12 volt blankie.
>>
>>I didn't know thtey had such things, but
>>http://www.amazon.com/Heated-Fleece-Travel-Electric-Blanket/dp/B000V8QVX6
>>http://www.walmart.com/ip/Maxsa-Comfy-Cruise-12-Volt-Electric-Blanket-Navy-Blue/10756183
>>
>>Onlly 25 dollars for each.
>>
>>>My baby brother has been a long
>>
>>They let babies drive trucks!
>
>He turned 45 a couple weeks after the crash

I'm not surprised. A near death experience makes someone grow old
fast. Although 44 years in a couple weeks is remarkable.
>>
>>>distance trucker across north america, from Alaska to Florida - and
>>>has 12 volt mattress warmer and 12 volt electric blanket for YEARS.
>>>
>>>Lost 'em both when he rolled the truck last year. Bust his neck too,
>>>but he's back on the road - doing mostly short haul flatland driving
>>>hauling crude - less than 2 years after the crash.
>>
>>Glad he's doing so well
>
> Yea, he's only got less than 30 degrees total lateral movement, and
>by the end od a day his neck is sore - but with convex mirrors on the
>truck he's OK as long as he's carefull. Guess they figured it was
>better to let him drive again than to try to retrain him for something
>else.
>Darn good driver. Other than being struck by lighning, a herd of
>antelope, and about a hundred separate deer his record was very good
>till he ditched and barrel rolled just west of Calgary 2 years ago May
>24. Not sure how many million miles he and his little dog CB have
>under thair belt - CB is 16 now and was on the road with him from the
>time he was a pup antill about 6 months before the accident. (Jack
>Russel /???? cross)

Good for them.

[k...@att.bizzz]

On Sat, 10 Nov 2012 11:44:52 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 21:46:08 -0800, miso <mi...@sushi.com> wrote:
>
>>I think we are feeding a troll (original poster), but yes, it is stupid
>>to boost a voltage or go from AC to DC for a resistive heater. A company
>>that I will not embarrass (plus I forget the name) was using a DC/DC for
>>a heated stethoscope. [Hey Doc, do you keep that thing in the 'fridge?]
>>Far better to get a heating element of the right resistance. And from
>>what I hear, it is the speculum that needs heating.
>>
>>BTW, I've been to the Jack Daniels factory. It is worth the tour. The
>>irony is the factory is located in a "dry" county, so you can't do any
>>tasting there. [See what happens when you let Bible thumpers get too
>>much power!] The factory is more like a college campus. Lots of
>>buildings surrounded by patches of green grass. The whiskey is aged in a
>>manner like you store explosives. The "bunkers" are away from the
>>factory and have a buffer zone so that all the stock won't be destroyed
>>should one site catch fire.
>>
>

>The county is now suggesting an increased tax, and Jack Daniels is
>suggesting that it _can_ move and leave a bunch of unemployed :-)

All as it should be. Companies can go John Gault (they are people,
too ;-).

[k...@att.bizzz]

On Sat, 10 Nov 2012 06:41:13 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
<lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote:

>"tm" <No_on...@white-house.gov> fired this volley in news:k7kogp$92f$1
>@dont-email.me:

>
>> t's best when they switch on the zero crossings.
>

>It can't be a "duty cycle controller", and switch _only_ on the zero
>crossings.

Nonsense. Just cycle skip. It's only heat. Pulse width modulation
averaging across seconds is just fine.

>When a device only turns on and off at the AC zero crossings, we call it
>a "wire".

Wrong.

[k...@att.bizzz]

I thought he said it was a rubber ducky.

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

k...@att.bizzz fired this volley in
news:eb52a89chp2hs9snd...@4ax.com:

> Nonsense. Just cycle skip. It's only heat. Pulse width modulation
> averaging across seconds is just fine.
>

If you'd take the time to read the thread before making a knee-jerk
response, you'd note that I dealt with that in an immediate follow-up to
the one you responded. I just hit "send now" before writing everything I
meant to. (but -did- follow up to address your exact contention)

I'm not in the 'nonsense' business concerning electronics -- having made
it my profession for over 40 years.

Do you make "gut" decisions when trouble-shooting, and just swap
suspected parts, or do you thoroughly examine the symptoms first? The
first, we used to call "tube caddies" in the old TV days. The latter, we
called "technicians".

LLoyd

[k...@att.bizzz]

On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 12:05:40 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
<lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote:

>k...@att.bizzz fired this volley in
>news:eb52a89chp2hs9snd...@4ax.com:
>
>> Nonsense. Just cycle skip. It's only heat. Pulse width modulation
>> averaging across seconds is just fine.
>>
>
>If you'd take the time to read the thread before making a knee-jerk
>response, you'd note that I dealt with that in an immediate follow-up to
>the one you responded. I just hit "send now" before writing everything I
>meant to. (but -did- follow up to address your exact contention)

Sometimes, sometimes not. It often depends on what's in my view at the
time. Errors this glaring do deserve a response. It was a *DUMB*
statement. I actually didn't notice that I was in SED. It was *that*
dumb.

>I'm not in the 'nonsense' business concerning electronics -- having made
>it my profession for over 40 years.

Apparently you are in the nonsense business, and have been for forty
years. You pulled a real boner on this one. Defending it, such as
you are trying, is worse.

>Do you make "gut" decisions when trouble-shooting, and just swap
>suspected parts, or do you thoroughly examine the symptoms first? The
>first, we used to call "tube caddies" in the old TV days. The latter, we
>called "technicians".

Have you stepped in it this deep every day of your forty years? Not
that any of this has anything to do with your absurd statements.

[Michael A. Terrell]

He flushed that down the toilet. ;-)

[The Daring Dufas]

The darn thing kept floating off whenever I went swimming. O_o

TDD

[David Combs]

Parabolic heater:

Personal heater, because beam is so narrow.

Problem for me: the air within the beam gets warm
enough for the relative humidity to go down to what
seems like zero, and you're breathing it.

REALLY dries out the nasal passages, so much that
it can hurt. For me, anyway.

Much prefer OLD Markel heater, with only the front
element on.

(Amazon reviews say that today's Markel heaters are
for shit, crappy wiring inside, cheap construction.
Although outer shell, reviews say, looks and feels
like the old ones. Do read the reviews before
buying one.)


David

[David Combs]

In article <9shs985ucglq6m219...@4ax.com>,
whoyakidding <whoyak...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 10 Nov 2012 02:48:29 -0500, "Existential Angst"
><fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>
>>My hot-wired blanket now works, and as far as the risk of fire goes, even at
>>full blast, it's got a long long way to go before ignition... heh, famous
>>last words, eh?? LOL
>
>It sounds like you're on a parallel path to what I have in my
>motorhome. It had 2 tired deep cycle batteries which I replaced and
>added a third. If I remember right I have about 1kwh capacity to 50%.
>I bought a 1000W true sine inverter on sale for $150. Now I have more
>battery capacity for running the furnace heavily overnight when dry
>camping in cold temperatures. And I don't have to use the generator
>nearly so often. Even the inverter microwave is OK at half power.
>
>In my rig the bedroom is at the back. It stays cool when the rest of
>the coach is toasty. I've considered getting an electric blanket and
>running it off the inverter and then turning down the furnace
>thermostat overnight. I should break even on the battery use and come
>out ahead on propane. One wrinkle is that the furnace has an outlet
>into the holding tank compartment. If I run the furnace too little in
>below freezing temperatures then I'd have to worry about the dump
>valves freezing. I've traveled in the off season and my record so far
>for being comfortable is 14 degrees Fahrenheit. Man the RV crowd
>really thins out when it gets cold. :) If I get a chance to
>experiment further I'll report here.

Valve freezing shut.

Do they still make low-wattage electric tape-warmers to wrap around pipes,
like in a garage? Maybe that would help.

David

[David Combs]

In article <k7mufp$gr3$1...@dont-email.me>,

The Daring Dufas <the-dari...@peckerhead.net> wrote:
>feller has to watch his figure, that's why I drink diet soft drinks. ^_^
>
>TDD

Do you know how much SUGAR (or worse) is in a soft drink?

Likewise caffein.

I used to drink coke like it was water. For years.

Who knows what it did to my innards...

David

[David Combs]

In article <CcCdnVraIvTgdADN...@earthlink.com>,

Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>

>micky wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 22:18:39 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
>> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
...
>> I don't think so. And if that were the case, then a
>> radio transmitter broadcasting at 600 KHz would require an antenna
>> that was a third of a mile long.
>
>
> No, it doesn't. AM BC band broadcast antennas are not a full
>wavelength, and the aren't resonant at the transmit frequency.


Please say more about that. Thanks!


They all
>use use L/C networks to make the tower work at the allocated frequency.

What, some kind of impedance matching?


>Some ATU are as large as the AM transmitter when the tower is difficult
>to configure.

ATU -- what's that?


Thanks!

David


PS: And if you feel like writing a bunch, give us all a tutorial!

[Michael A. Terrell]

David Combs wrote:
>
> In article <k7mufp$gr3$1...@dont-email.me>,
> The Daring Dufas <the-dari...@peckerhead.net> wrote:
> >feller has to watch his figure, that's why I drink diet soft drinks. ^_^
> >
> >TDD
>
> Do you know how much SUGAR (or worse) is in a soft drink?
>
> Likewise caffein.

Caffeine isn't all bad. It's a natural diuretic.

[Michael A. Terrell]

David Combs wrote:
>
> In article <CcCdnVraIvTgdADN...@earthlink.com>,
> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> >micky wrote:
> >>
> >> On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 22:18:39 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
> >> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>
> ...
> >> I don't think so. And if that were the case, then a
> >> radio transmitter broadcasting at 600 KHz would require an antenna
> >> that was a third of a mile long.
> >
> >
> > No, it doesn't. AM BC band broadcast antennas are not a full
> >wavelength, and the aren't resonant at the transmit frequency.
>
> Please say more about that. Thanks!

Early radio stated the wavelength in meters, rather than frequency so
it was rather obvious The wavelength at 600 KHz is 300,000,000/600,000
or 500 meters (1640 feet)


60 Hz is 5,000,000 meters for one cycle in free space. Roughly
16400000 feet, or 3106 miles. That means that you aren't going to have
much AC power radiated in a few feet of conductors. For instance, if
there is 20 feet of heating element, it is roughly 20/16,400,000 or
1.2195e-6 of a wavelength


http://www.csgnetwork.com/freqwavelengthcalc.html is one of many free
Javascript based wavelength calculators you can play with.

> > They all use use L/C networks to make the tower work at the
> > allocated frequency.
>
> What, some kind of impedance matching?

Yes, and every installation is a custom design.

> > Some ATU are as large as the AM transmitter when the tower is
> > difficult to configure.
>
> ATU -- what's that?

ATU= 'Antenna Tuning Unit'. In AM broadcast, it is a custom
impedance matching network designed to match the antenna to the
transmitter's output impedance of 50 Ohms. They have to handle the
transmitters full rated power, and be fairly tolerant of lightning
induced flash over conditions.


The old Voice Of America transmitter farm at Bethany Ohio had huge
underground vaults for the antenna switches, and remote tuned ATUs. Of
course, they could put out up to 500 KW at any frequency from 1.5 to 30
MHz into the directional array to target any point on earth. The WLW
site a few miles away could do 500 KW, but since it was designed for a
single frequency it was much smaller. Both of those sites date back to
the early days of radio, and the VOA site is now a golf course. :(

[Jim Wilkins]

"David Combs" <dkc...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:kc87hh$joe$4...@reader1.panix.com...

> In article <CcCdnVraIvTgdADN...@earthlink.com>,
> Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>micky wrote:
>>> On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 22:18:39 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
>>> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
> ...
>>> I don't think so. And if that were the case, then a
>>> radio transmitter broadcasting at 600 KHz would require an antenna
>>> that was a third of a mile long.
>>
>> No, it doesn't. AM BC band broadcast antennas are not a full
>>wavelength, and the aren't resonant at the transmit frequency.
>
> Please say more about that. Thanks!

AM radios use a ferrite cored coil antenna that picks up the magnetic
component of the RF wave, so they don't have to be sized to the
wavelength like FM and TV antennas.
http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/antennas/ferrite_rod_antenna/ferrite_rod_antenna.php

I built an audio-band VLF radio receiver as a kid with a large folding
air-core coil antenna made from a scrapped TV yoke.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawn_chorus_(electromagnetic)
I had to hike it far from the roads to reduce 60Hz hum from power
lines.

> They all
>>use use L/C networks to make the tower work at the allocated
>>frequency.

> What, some kind of impedance matching?

The antenna should look like a pure resistance that absorbs (and
radiates) the incoming signal completely. SWR or Standing Wave Ratio
is an indication of how far out it is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_wave_ratio

It's difficult to write a simple, intuitive but accurate explanation
of this stuff. Thus I practice. The principles of AC circuits do not
relate to everyday experience. I was surprised by how well the
mathematics of the "imaginary" square root of -1 describe inductive
and capacitive circuits.

[Ralph Mowery]

"David Combs" <dkc...@panix.com> wrote in message

news:kc870t$joe$3...@reader1.panix.com...

> In article <k7mufp$gr3$1...@dont-email.me>,
> The Daring Dufas <the-dari...@peckerhead.net> wrote:
>>feller has to watch his figure, that's why I drink diet soft drinks. ^_^
>>
>>TDD
>
> Do you know how much SUGAR (or worse) is in a soft drink?
>
> Likewise caffein.
>

There is no sugar in most soft drinks. It is all that corn surp subistute.
A new study just out says that the high frutose (however you spell it) does
not cut off parts of the brain like the pure sugar does so you keep eating
and gitting fatter.

The artifical sweetner is even worse for what some of them can do to your
brain.

Idid not know all of this, but never drank many soft drinks. Mostly tea
sweetened with sugar.

[Dave Platt]

In article <kc87hh$joe$4...@reader1.panix.com>,

David Combs <dkc...@panix.com> wrote:

>> No, it doesn't. AM BC band broadcast antennas are not a full
>>wavelength, and the aren't resonant at the transmit frequency.
>
>
>Please say more about that. Thanks!
>
>
>>They all
>>use use L/C networks to make the tower work at the allocated frequency.
>
>What, some kind of impedance matching?

Yup. It's an impedance match / transformation arrangement, which
matches the impedance of the antenna (often far off resonance in these
cases) to the impedance of the transmission line.

Although the antenna by itself is not resonant, the antenna + matching
circuit is.

>>Some ATU are as large as the AM transmitter when the tower is difficult
>>to configure.
>
>ATU -- what's that?

Antenna Tuning Unit. A big impedance L/C impedance matcher.

>PS: And if you feel like writing a bunch, give us all a tutorial!

If you're really interested in this topic, may I suggest looking
through Laport's classic text from the 1950s, "Radio Antenna
Engineering"? Lots of information, and some very nice photos of long-
and medium-wave antenna setups (military and commercial).

Although original copies are few and far between (and rather
expensive) these days, the book's copyright expired a few years ago
and it reverted to the public domain. I scanned it, and you can
download a copy at no charge.

http://snulbug.mtview.ca.us/books/RadioAntennaEngineering/
http://www.lulu.com/shop/edmund-laport/radio-antenna-engineering/ebook/product-17560294.html

If you decide you want a printed copy,

http://www.lulu.com/shop/edmund-laport/radio-antenna-engineering/paperback/product-188778.html

Lulu sells it for the cost of printing and shipping... I set the
"author's commission" to zero, so they don't charge a royalty or take
a percentage of it.

--
Dave Platt <dpl...@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

[Jim Wilkins]

"Dave Platt" <dpl...@radagast.org> wrote in message
news:jn7mr9-...@radagast.org...
> ...>
> .I scanned it, and you can

> download a copy at no charge.
>

Done, in an hour and a half on dialup, and thank you VERY much!
jsw

[The Daring Dufas]

I just cut my consumption of Diet Dew to a minimum. I discovered it was
the source of chest pains I was experiencing. Now I just drink some in
the morning to start my motor and have walked away from consuming it by
the gallon. Besides, I was peeing an average of 2gal a day. No, I don't
collect it, my doctor wanted me to monitor it with a graduated urinal
because of the medication I'm taking. The combination of HCTZ and
caffeine from the Diet Dew had Mr. Bladder waking me every hour, I was
getting little or no sleep. O_o

TDD

[Jasen Betts]

They don't use 'high fructose corn syrup' in softdrinks in NZ. that
hasn't made much difference to obesity figures.

--
⚂⚃ 100% natural

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---

[upsid...@downunder.com]

On Sat, 5 Jan 2013 03:43:45 +0000 (UTC), dkc...@panix.com (David
Combs) wrote:

>In article <CcCdnVraIvTgdADN...@earthlink.com>,
>Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>micky wrote:
>>>
>>> On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 22:18:39 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
>>> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>...
>>> I don't think so. And if that were the case, then a
>>> radio transmitter broadcasting at 600 KHz would require an antenna
>>> that was a third of a mile long.
>>
>>
>> No, it doesn't. AM BC band broadcast antennas are not a full
>>wavelength, and the aren't resonant at the transmit frequency.
>
>
>Please say more about that. Thanks!

Since the radiation from a horizontal wire close (in terms of
wavelength) to the ground will cancel out due to the ground "mirror"
reflection, only vertical polarization makes sense at frequencies
below about 1 MHz (300 m wavelength).

There are two practical ways to generate vertical signals, either by
using a 1/2 wave radiator, isolated from ground and fed from the
middle or using a 1/4 radiator and a *good* ground plane.

An example of the first approach was the LW tower in Poland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warszawa_Radio_Mast
with a mast 646 m tall, fed by 227 kHz (1320 m wavelength) thus a 1/2
wavelength structure (considering the end capacitances). The advantage
was no ground losses, but unfortunately the hight was huge (tallest in
the world when constructed).

If you are not willing to build such high structures, the alternative
is to use 1/4 antennas (requiring *good* ground planes). In order to
reduce the masts even further, various top capacitance hat structures,
such as T and Z constructs could be used, but this reduced the
radiation resistance. Look for instance of the antenna structures of
the Titanic, the 500 kHz (600 m) would have required 150 m masts, but
in reality, there were several antenna conductors along the ship at
lower altitude, forming a top hat capacitance as a T-antenna. The
actual radiation occurred from the vertical line going from the radio
hut to these horizontal wires.

>They all
>>use use L/C networks to make the tower work at the allocated frequency.

There are two issues.

In order to radiate effectively, the antenna_system_ must be resonant
(i.e. purely resistive) at the transmission frequency with top hat
capacitances and loading coils at the transmitter end.

Monopole antennas that are much smaller than the 1/4 wavelength. have
a radiation resistance well below the text book 37 ohms, perhaps an
ohm or even a milliohm.

>What, some kind of impedance matching?
>
>
>>Some ATU are as large as the AM transmitter when the tower is difficult
>>to configure.
>
>ATU -- what's that?

To be usable, a transmitter+antenna combination must
1.) The antenna _system_ must be resistive at the design frequency
2.) the transmitter output impedance (sometimes kilo-ohms) must be
matched to the antenna milliohm to ohm radiation resistance.

In some (most) cases this can be done with a 2-3 component antenna
tuner unit (ATU), but the losses may be huge and flashovers and smoke
may occur.

[Stormin Mormon]

I suspect your electric blanket appreciates you cutting back on the diet
dew. You may have been doing some wicked dehydrating, as your kidneys tried
to clear out the chemicals.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"The Daring Dufas" <the-dari...@stinky-finger.net> wrote in message
news:kcbct9$ulu$1...@dont-email.me...

[The Daring Dufas]

On 1/6/2013 7:35 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
> I suspect your electric blanket appreciates you cutting back on the diet
> dew. You may have been doing some wicked dehydrating, as your kidneys tried
> to clear out the chemicals.
>

Sorry, I don't have an electric blanket, I have a four legged hot water
bottle named Sandy. ^_^

TDD

[Attila Iskander]

"The Daring Dufas" <the-dari...@stinky-finger.net> wrote in message

news:kcbvd1$vlo$1...@dont-email.me...

I also have a 4-legged heat source, a tree-climbing Vizsla called Csilla
(pronounce chee-LLA, spoken fast)
The only problem with her is the occasional emission of (very) aromatic
gasses. Usually after she has consumed bunny poop.

I'm actually considering collecting bunny poop as a training treat, since
she considers bunny poop to be a better treat that store bought treats.
<sigh>

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sun, 06 Jan 2013 02:33:42 -0600, The Daring Dufas
<the-dari...@stinky-finger.net> wrote:

>On 1/5/2013 10:01 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
>>
>> "David Combs" <dkc...@panix.com> wrote in message
>> news:kc870t$joe$3...@reader1.panix.com...
>>> In article <k7mufp$gr3$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>> The Daring Dufas <the-dari...@peckerhead.net> wrote:
>>>> feller has to watch his figure, that's why I drink diet soft drinks. ^_^
>>>>
>>>> TDD
>>>
>>> Do you know how much SUGAR (or worse) is in a soft drink?
>>>
>>> Likewise caffein.
>>>
>>
>> There is no sugar in most soft drinks. It is all that corn surp subistute.
>> A new study just out says that the high frutose (however you spell it) does
>> not cut off parts of the brain like the pure sugar does so you keep eating
>> and gitting fatter.
>>
>> The artifical sweetner is even worse for what some of them can do to your
>> brain.
>>
>> Idid not know all of this, but never drank many soft drinks. Mostly tea
>> sweetened with sugar.
>>
>>
>
>I just cut my consumption of Diet Dew to a minimum. I discovered it was
>the source of chest pains I was experiencing.

Your heart was probably in overdrive. Have you monitored your heart
rate? Do you have a history of AF? Mt Dew is has more caffeine than
most sodas, twice that of Coke, IIRC. My doctor told me to get off
caffeine six years ago. I still get some in (some) root beer. I can
feel it about an hour later when the heart kicks into overdrive. If
I've just taken the beta blocker it's not so bad but sometimes I
forget to take them before we go out.

[TheKraken]

On Sun, 06 Jan 2013 12:58:54 -0500, k...@attt.bizz wrote:

> I forget to take them before we go out.

One can only bask in that possible outcome imagery...

Ahh... so it is the lack of oxygen to the brain then...

I knew there was a reason for the behavior.