Is there better stuff than X10?
Joerg
_not_ RF based like zigbee would be, and still affordable? The X10
protocol is not good and the modules are IMHO utter junk.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
Charles
"Joerg" <notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
news:kDtgk.8670$L_...@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com...
> Is there anything better than this cheesy X10 stuff, something that is
> _not_ RF based like zigbee would be, and still affordable? The X10
> protocol is not good and the modules are IMHO utter junk.
>
> --
> Regards, Joerg
http://www.control4.com/ and others ... Google "home automation." They all
have limitations.
Joerg
Thanks but it's Zigbee, not so good:
http://www.control4.com/documents/briefs/Control4-WirelessDimmer.pdf
And only sold through installers at sky-high prices:
http://www.asmarterhome.net/494/557.html
This market really needs some new players.
Nico Coesel
>Is there anything better than this cheesy X10 stuff, something that is
>_not_ RF based like zigbee would be, and still affordable? The X10
>protocol is not good and the modules are IMHO utter junk.
>
A company called Eaton Holec has developed the A10 protocol based on
the X10 protocol. See http://www.bwired.nl/How_xanuranew.asp for some
info.
--
Programmeren in Almere?
E-mail naar nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
Michael A. Terrell
Joerg wrote:
>
> Is there anything better than this cheesy X10 stuff, something that is
> _not_ RF based like zigbee would be, and still affordable? The X10
> protocol is not good and the modules are IMHO utter junk.
Have you looked at the Intellion powerline modem ICs?
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sheep.
Joerg
> Joerg <notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>
>> Is there anything better than this cheesy X10 stuff, something that is
>> _not_ RF based like zigbee would be, and still affordable? The X10
>> protocol is not good and the modules are IMHO utter junk.
>>
>
> A company called Eaton Holec has developed the A10 protocol based on
> the X10 protocol. See http://www.bwired.nl/How_xanuranew.asp for some
> info.
>
Pretty horrible web site but interesting. However, it looks like 230V
only and not sold in the US :-(
mrda...@gmail.com
wrote:
> Charles wrote:
> > "Joerg" <notthisjoerg...@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
> >news:kDtgk.8670$L_...@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com...
> >> Is there anything better than this cheesy X10 stuff, something that is
> >> _not_ RF based like zigbee would be, and still affordable? The X10
> >> protocol is not good and the modules are IMHO utter junk.
>
> >> --
> >> Regards, Joerg
>
> > have limitations.
>
> Thanks but it's Zigbee, not so good:http://www.control4.com/documents/briefs/Control4-WirelessDimmer.pdf
>
> And only sold through installers at sky-high prices:http://www.asmarterhome.net/494/557.html
>
> This market really needs some new players.
>
> --
> Regards, Joerg
>
> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>
> "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
> Use another domain or send PM.
No kidding.
http://www.edn.com/article/CA6576137.html?nid=3351&rid=689244861
Regards,
Michael
Joerg
> Joerg wrote:
>> Is there anything better than this cheesy X10 stuff, something that is
>> _not_ RF based like zigbee would be, and still affordable? The X10
>> protocol is not good and the modules are IMHO utter junk.
>
>
> Have you looked at the Intellion powerline modem ICs?
>
I've only seen patents from them. But if I have to roll my own wusing
some specialty chip I'd rather do it from scratch, MSP430 or PSoC. I
don't have a lot of trust in powerline comms companies anymore.
BobW
"Joerg" <notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
news:kDtgk.8670$L_...@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com...
Is it the price of wireless or just being wireless that you don't like?
If it's just the price, then look at Z-Wave. It's older technology than
ZigBee but it's works darn well. I've ripped out all my X10 stuff and
replaced it with Z-Wave.
The thing that I really like about it is that every device acts as a
repeater, so controller-to-device distance usually isn't an issue.
Here's the stuff I have:
Bob
--
== All google group posts are automatically deleted due to spam ==
Le Chaud Lapin
> On Jul 19, 3:30 pm, Joerg <notthisjoerg...@removethispacbell.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Charles wrote:
> > > "Joerg" <notthisjoerg...@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
> > >news:kDtgk.8670$L_...@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com...
> > >> Is there anything better than this cheesy X10 stuff, something that is
> > >> _not_ RF based like zigbee would be, and still affordable? The X10
> > >> protocol is not good and the modules are IMHO utter junk.
>
> > >> --
> > >> Regards, Joerg
>
> > > have limitations.
>
> > Thanks but it's Zigbee, not so good:http://www.control4.com/documents/briefs/Control4-WirelessDimmer.pdf
>
> > And only sold through installers at sky-high prices:http://www.asmarterhome.net/494/557.html
>
> > This market really needs some new players.
>
> > --
> > Regards, Joerg
>
> >http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>
> > "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
> > Use another domain or send PM.
>
> No kidding.http://www.edn.com/article/CA6576137.html?nid=3351&rid=689244861
I had the same experience. Left me in an extreme state of disgust that
company making those "products" would have audacity to sell them
knowing how bad the quality is.
-Le Chaud Lapin-
Jeff Liebermann
<notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>Is there anything better than this cheesy X10 stuff, something that is
>_not_ RF based like zigbee would be, and still affordable? The X10
>protocol is not good and the modules are IMHO utter junk.
Sorry, but RF is the rage and wired standards are out. Z-wave is the
latest in wireless standards, consortia, conspiracies, IP litigation,
and products. See:
<http://www.z-wave.com>
<http://www.z-wavealliance.org>
List of players:
<http://www.z-wavealliance.org/modules/iaCM-MCL/>
Some detail:
<http://www.z-wavealliance.org/modules/xoopsfaq/>
Chip vendor:
<http://www.zen-sys.com/modules/Zensys/>
Light reading:
<http://www.zen-sys.com/modules/Products&Techonology/?id=33&chk=5b22312658d556869c744c205909f8b3>
Runs on 908.42MHz in the US and 868.42MHz in EU at 9600 baud. 30
meters indoors and 100 meters outdoors. It can be bi-directional so
you have some indication that the device actually responded. X10 is
unidirectional. 232(?) nodes maximum per network. It is setup as a
mesh networks to extend range (i.e. no central access point) with self
routing and self healing routes.
I've played with some of the Leviton Vizia products and find them
"good enough". That means that they do what's advertised, but I sure
would like to see some more features, diagnostics, monitoring, and
clues as to what's happening.
The problem is the high price, but I expect that to drop:
<http://www.smarthome.com/_/Z_Wave_Compatible/_/23V/nav.aspx?Ns=Price&Ne=148>
<http://www.smarthomeusa.com/search.php?q=z-wave&x=0&y=0>
Affordable will have to wait.
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Joerg
> "Joerg" <notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:kDtgk.8670$L_...@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com...
>> Is there anything better than this cheesy X10 stuff, something that is
>> _not_ RF based like zigbee would be, and still affordable? The X10
>> protocol is not good and the modules are IMHO utter junk.
>>
>> --
>> Regards, Joerg
>>
>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>>
>> "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
>> Use another domain or send PM.
>
>
> Is it the price of wireless or just being wireless that you don't like?
>
> If it's just the price, then look at Z-Wave. It's older technology than
> ZigBee but it's works darn well. I've ripped out all my X10 stuff and
> replaced it with Z-Wave.
>
RF in this house is going to be a nightmare. The builders wanted to be
extra good and insulated all inner walls with aluminum backed fiber.
Anything past a few hundred MHz doesn't get any range here.
> The thing that I really like about it is that every device acts as a
> repeater, so controller-to-device distance usually isn't an issue.
>
Which means you have to have repeaters and they must be on circuits that
are always powered.
> Here's the stuff I have:
>
> http://www.homesettings.com/
>
Personally I don't trust the company behind it anymore. They sold timers
which always failed in the same way and then refused to sell the simple
plastic gear to fix them. They didn't even answer multiple inquiries.
That gets rewarded with a loooong ban in this house ;-)
Joerg
> On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 15:10:20 -0700, Joerg
> <notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>
>> Is there anything better than this cheesy X10 stuff, something that is
>> _not_ RF based like zigbee would be, and still affordable? The X10
>> protocol is not good and the modules are IMHO utter junk.
>
> Sorry, but RF is the rage and wired standards are out. Z-wave is the
> latest in wireless standards, consortia, conspiracies, IP litigation,
> and products. See:
> <http://www.z-wave.com>
> <http://www.z-wavealliance.org>
> List of players:
> <http://www.z-wavealliance.org/modules/iaCM-MCL/>
> Some detail:
> <http://www.z-wavealliance.org/modules/xoopsfaq/>
> Chip vendor:
> <http://www.zen-sys.com/modules/Zensys/>
> Light reading:
> <http://www.zen-sys.com/modules/Products&Techonology/?id=33&chk=5b22312658d556869c744c205909f8b3>
>
> Runs on 908.42MHz in the US and 868.42MHz in EU at 9600 baud. 30
In this super RF-tight house that would translate into maybe 15m indoors
and outdoors only if there is a window more or less directly in the
path. Abover 433MHz it gets really bad.
> ... It can be bi-directional so
> you have some indication that the device actually responded. X10 is
> unidirectional. 232(?) nodes maximum per network. It is setup as a
> mesh networks to extend range (i.e. no central access point) with self
> routing and self healing routes.
>
> I've played with some of the Leviton Vizia products and find them
> "good enough". That means that they do what's advertised, but I sure
> would like to see some more features, diagnostics, monitoring, and
> clues as to what's happening.
>
> The problem is the high price, but I expect that to drop:
> <http://www.smarthome.com/_/Z_Wave_Compatible/_/23V/nav.aspx?Ns=Price&Ne=148>
> <http://www.smarthomeusa.com/search.php?q=z-wave&x=0&y=0>
> Affordable will have to wait.
>
Plus I don't want any Intermatic products.
The other thing that puzzles me: The EPA and all kinds of agencies push
CFL yet most of these home automation guys don't seem to get it. They
still sell dimmer modules that cannot be turned into a non-dim CFL
compatible mode.
Jeff Liebermann
<notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> Runs on 908.42MHz in the US and 868.42MHz in EU at 9600 baud. 30
>> meters indoors and 100 meters outdoors. ...
>In this super RF-tight house that would translate into maybe 15m indoors
>and outdoors only if there is a window more or less directly in the
>path. Abover 433MHz it gets really bad.
I have customers with similar houses. I have to use repeaters and
bridges between sections of the house. Sometimes, I can get away with
shooting through doorways. For Z-wave, the trick is just to put two
switch or wall power devices back to back on the same wall. That will
act as a repeater. There are also bridges between X10 and other
technologies that might help.
More reading:
<http://www.zwaveworld.com/zwliving.php>
>> The problem is the high price, but I expect that to drop:
>> <http://www.smarthome.com/_/Z_Wave_Compatible/_/23V/nav.aspx?Ns=Price&Ne=148>
>> <http://www.smarthomeusa.com/search.php?q=z-wave&x=0&y=0>
>> Affordable will have to wait.
>Plus I don't want any Intermatic products.
You are really difficult to please. Are there any other companies on
your black list that I should avoid?
>The other thing that puzzles me: The EPA and all kinds of agencies push
>CFL yet most of these home automation guys don't seem to get it. They
>still sell dimmer modules that cannot be turned into a non-dim CFL
>compatible mode.
Z-wave technology is about 2-3 years old. The CFL recommendations are
somewhat more recent. My guess(tm) is a dimmable CFL would need to
have the Z-wave chip integrated. However, you're correct about the
dimmer modules. They could easily have added an on/off feature in
place of dimming. However, I think there are some on/off only modules
available, but I'm too lazy to look.
Joerg
> On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 09:12:40 -0700, Joerg
> <notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>
>> Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> Runs on 908.42MHz in the US and 868.42MHz in EU at 9600 baud. 30
>>> meters indoors and 100 meters outdoors. ...
>
>> In this super RF-tight house that would translate into maybe 15m indoors
>> and outdoors only if there is a window more or less directly in the
>> path. Abover 433MHz it gets really bad.
>
> I have customers with similar houses. I have to use repeaters and
> bridges between sections of the house. Sometimes, I can get away with
> shooting through doorways. For Z-wave, the trick is just to put two
> switch or wall power devices back to back on the same wall. That will
> act as a repeater. There are also bridges between X10 and other
> technologies that might help.
>
Could be tough here. The boxes are metal and then there is another layer
of aluminum-backed fiber behind them that you could only rip out by
busting through the drywall. That methods has a very low WAF ;-)
I've had that: Transmitter in the office, other side in the kitchen next
to it. No signal :-(
> More reading:
> <http://www.zwaveworld.com/zwliving.php>
>
>>> The problem is the high price, but I expect that to drop:
>>> <http://www.smarthome.com/_/Z_Wave_Compatible/_/23V/nav.aspx?Ns=Price&Ne=148>
>>> <http://www.smarthomeusa.com/search.php?q=z-wave&x=0&y=0>
>>> Affordable will have to wait.
>
>> Plus I don't want any Intermatic products.
>
> You are really difficult to please. Are there any other companies on
> your black list that I should avoid?
>
Yep, like one chip mfg that starts with "M" ...
>> The other thing that puzzles me: The EPA and all kinds of agencies push
>> CFL yet most of these home automation guys don't seem to get it. They
>> still sell dimmer modules that cannot be turned into a non-dim CFL
>> compatible mode.
>
> Z-wave technology is about 2-3 years old. The CFL recommendations are
> somewhat more recent. My guess(tm) is a dimmable CFL would need to
> have the Z-wave chip integrated. However, you're correct about the
> dimmer modules. They could easily have added an on/off feature in
> place of dimming. However, I think there are some on/off only modules
> available, but I'm too lazy to look.
>
Very few. The powers to be in that market simply don't seem to realize
where the trend goes. And the liability that comes with it should uncle
Leroy climb on that old ladder and screw a CFL into the socket where he
technically shouldn't.
Jeff Liebermann
<notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>> You are really difficult to please. Are there any other companies on
>> your black list that I should avoid?
>Yep, like one chip mfg that starts with "M" ...
Which one? Motorola, Maxim, Microchip, Monolythic Memories, Mostek,
MOS Technologies, Marvell, Marconi-Elliot, Matsushita, Mitsubishi...
Yeah, I know some of these are defunct.
--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 je...@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com je...@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS
Joerg
> On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 13:17:10 -0700, Joerg
> <notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>
>
>>> You are really difficult to please. Are there any other companies on
>>> your black list that I should avoid?
>
>> Yep, like one chip mfg that starts with "M" ...
>
> Which one? Motorola, Maxim, Microchip, Monolythic Memories, Mostek,
> MOS Technologies, Marvell, Marconi-Elliot, Matsushita, Mitsubishi...
> Yeah, I know some of these are defunct.
The 2nd one :-)
At least I am not using their stuff, seen too much grief WRT unobtanium
situations.