I was thinking about all the fringe-science "Magnet Motors" and found myself reasoning thus: suppose there's a way to power a flywheel by slowly demagnetizing some permanent magnets. Wipe out the magnets' stored energy, and inject it as KE into the flywheel. If possible, this would explain a large number of bizarre PM claims, since every so often a basement inventor would stumble across the phenomenon. But as far as I know, nobody has tried to do this intentionally.
OK, what if?
First of all, a pair of repelling magnets placed upon a rotor/stator, if gradually increasing in magnetization, will experience net acceleration, and will only stop when the magnets get fully saturated. During each approach, they decelerate a bit less than they accelerate during retreat, so the flywheel receives a small kick. But obviously the magnetization requires an external power supply.
But the other way is interesting: *attracting* magnet-pairs, if slowly DE-magnetized, will be similarly accelerated. They accelerate while approaching each other, then decelerate less when retreating, for a net kick of KE. The net mechanical gain could possibly compensate the thermal losses of a simple demagnetizer section. I'll assume there's a few microwatts left over to keep a flywheel slowly turning against air friction. Very cool if true!!!
It's not hard to demagnetize a small patch on the surface of ceramic magnet by using a tiny supermagnet. Or, slightly demagnetize an entire magnet by using a coil to apply a brief pulse. Two supermagnets, if forced together with alike-poles repelling, will demagnetize each other. A simple flywheel couldn't do this, since attracting magnets tend to magnetize each other via "keeper" effect, which would lead to net braking. The mechanism needs more complexity. So perhaps combine a flywheel with a pendulum, or a flywheel with small parts rotating independently. Or perhaps just place a very tiny supermagnet at the right spot between ceramic magnets on the rotor & stator? Better yet, let one of the ceramic magnets spin, that way it will present a random spot of fresh ceramic for demagnetization.
I think it should be trivial to accomplish this for a few cycles (a couple seconds acceleration before the effect poops out, like unwinding a spring.) The real trick would be to juggle things so the demagnetization is repetitive but very very small, enough where it could keep a flywheel spinning anomalously for long minutes before the magnets weakened too much.
If these are feasible, I would suspect that similar fake PM machines already exist and would have been central to known PM scams. (The "Searl Device" suspiciously resembles one possible setup, where the patterns on the large central magnet would be slowly wiped out by the orbiting ones.) Such an effect could have been repeatedly accidentally discovered. Imagine owning a spring-powered wheel, but one where the spring is invisible and takes hours/days to unwind. Pranking possibilities! Perhaps even risk assassination by oil companies and the Illuminati! :) In any case, one could go online and start soaking investors immediately.
>I was thinking about all the fringe-science "Magnet Motors" and >found > myself reasoning thus: suppose there's a way to power a flywheel > by > slowly demagnetizing some permanent magnets. Wipe out the > magnets' > stored energy, and inject it as KE into the flywheel. If > possible, > this would explain a large number of bizarre PM claims, since > every so > often a basement inventor would stumble across the phenomenon. > But > as far as I know, nobody has tried to do this intentionally.
Perpetual motion is built into the universe, it's a fundamental property of it. Of course, limited by its life span. See: Newton's first. "Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it. " Things move forever as long as they're not disturbed.
I guess that means perpetual motion is quite boring.
Those give out nanowatts for centuries, enough for a Franklin Bell. Perhaps a "Duluc Damp-Pile" would produce the milliwatts needed to keep an electrostatic motor slowly turning for a few months.
For the metal foil, I notice that Al plus Cu electrochem series gives 2.0V output. But I don't know if the Al oxide layer would be too much of a problem. If you had a hand-crank embossing roller device, you could make your own zinc or magnesium foil. Then use silver-leaf from an art supplier.
(((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb a eskimocom http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
<Barn...@keepingthevermindownatthebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote: > On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:09:00 -0800 (PST), Bill Beaty <bi...@eskimo.com> > wrote:
> >I was thinking
> Too late. The farting assholes in this group beat you to it... except > that their 'motion' is comprised of being perpetually stupid in Usenet.
> Damned shame too.
The net mechanical gain could possibly compensate the thermal losses of a simple demagnetizer section. I'll assume there's a few microwatts left over to keep a flywheel slowly turning against air friction. Very cool if true!!! Aaaaaaaand, if that works, then perhaps we can build a version resembling a 'parametric oscillator.' Add a battery! This would resemble a battery-powered ferrite coil (although a constant-current source would be more appropriate.) As the whirling supermagnets passed by, the demagnetization would produce tiny alternating pulses of back-EMF. Then the battery would re-magnetize the ferrite after a small delay.
That one I'm not so sure about (except as existence-proof from steorn!) But my earlier one is pretty simple, so probably the only challenge would be to make it run for hours rather than seconds.
(((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb a eskimocom http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
> For the metal foil, I notice that Al plus Cu electrochem series gives > 2.0V output. But I don't know if the Al oxide layer would be too > much of a problem. If you had a hand-crank embossing roller device, > you could make your own zinc or magnesium foil. Then use silver-leaf > from an art supplier.
Ah, but that's only if you use Cu(2+) electrolyte, otherwise there's no copper to reduce and it's an inert electrode.
Aluminum in NaOH makes about 0.8V against hydrogen. If you burn the H2 (maybe with MnO2 as in a dry cell, or with O2 in a fuel cell, making this an aluminum-air cell) you should get closer to 2V.
Interesting trivia: aluminum is not corroded by copper sulfate. But, add a grain of NaCl and watch out! Chloride catalyzes the displacement reaction.
> Perpetual motion is built into the universe, it's a fundamental > property of it. > Of course, limited by its life span. > See: Newton's first. > "Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that > state of motion unless an external force is applied to it. " > Things move forever as long as they're not disturbed.
That's why Nymnuts will never leave. He's always 'disturbed'.
-- Lead free solder is Belgium's version of 'Hold my beer and watch this!'
On Mar 11, 5:52 pm, a7yvm109gf...@netzero.com wrote:
] Perpetual motion is built into the universe, it's a fundamental
You're talking about 'perpetual drifting.'
The english word "Perpetual Motion" is actually defined more like "perpetual work," or "perpetual motion against friction," or "perpetual acceleration." A solar system or a frictionless flywheel is *not* an example of a PM device, if we're using the usual meaning of "PM."
When you build a successful PM machine, everyone knows about it. They notice the large new crater in your neighborhood where your garage once stood.
(((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb a eskimocom http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
On 3/11/10 7:52 PM, a7yvm109gf...@netzero.com wrote:
> Perpetual motion is built into the universe, it's a fundamental > property of it. > Of course, limited by its life span. > See: Newton's first. > "Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that > state of motion unless an external force is applied to it. " > Things move forever as long as they're not disturbed.
> I guess that means perpetual motion is quite boring.
The term perpetual motion, taken literally, refers to movement that goes on forever. However, the term more commonly refers to any device or system that perpetually (indefinitely) produces more energy than it consumes, resulting in a net output of energy for indefinite time.
The total momentum-energy of the universe is fixed and constant.
>On 3/11/10 7:52 PM, a7yvm109gf...@netzero.com wrote: >> Perpetual motion is built into the universe, it's a fundamental >> property of it. >> Of course, limited by its life span. >> See: Newton's first. >> "Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that >> state of motion unless an external force is applied to it. " >> Things move forever as long as they're not disturbed.
>> I guess that means perpetual motion is quite boring.
>The term perpetual motion, taken literally, refers to movement that goes >on forever. However, the term more commonly refers to any device or >system that perpetually (indefinitely) produces more energy than it >consumes, resulting in a net output of energy for indefinite time.
>The total momentum-energy of the universe is fixed and constant.
Yes... fixed at the value of ALL... and NOTHING.
If our "Universe" is a mere "bubble" inside a larger Superverse, then your claim needs re-evaluation.
> On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 22:02:50 -0600, Sam Wormley<sworml...@gmail.com> > wrote:
>> On 3/11/10 7:52 PM, a7yvm109gf...@netzero.com wrote: >>> Perpetual motion is built into the universe, it's a fundamental >>> property of it. >>> Of course, limited by its life span. >>> See: Newton's first. >>> "Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that >>> state of motion unless an external force is applied to it. " >>> Things move forever as long as they're not disturbed.
>>> I guess that means perpetual motion is quite boring.
>> The term perpetual motion, taken literally, refers to movement that goes >> on forever. However, the term more commonly refers to any device or >> system that perpetually (indefinitely) produces more energy than it >> consumes, resulting in a net output of energy for indefinite time.
>> The total momentum-energy of the universe is fixed and constant.
> Yes... fixed at the value of ALL... and NOTHING.
> If our "Universe" is a mere "bubble" inside a larger Superverse, then > your claim needs re-evaluation.
> On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 22:02:50 -0600, Sam Wormley<sworml...@gmail.com> > wrote:
>> On 3/11/10 7:52 PM, a7yvm109gf...@netzero.com wrote: >>> Perpetual motion is built into the universe, it's a fundamental >>> property of it. >>> Of course, limited by its life span. >>> See: Newton's first. >>> "Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that >>> state of motion unless an external force is applied to it. " >>> Things move forever as long as they're not disturbed.
>>> I guess that means perpetual motion is quite boring.
>> The term perpetual motion, taken literally, refers to movement that goes >> on forever. However, the term more commonly refers to any device or >> system that perpetually (indefinitely) produces more energy than it >> consumes, resulting in a net output of energy for indefinite time.
>> The total momentum-energy of the universe is fixed and constant.
> Yes... fixed at the value of ALL... and NOTHING.
> If our "Universe" is a mere "bubble" inside a larger Superverse, then > your claim needs re-evaluation.
On Mar 11, 5:09 pm, Bill Beaty <bi...@eskimo.com> wrote: [...] Hardly worth the design time. Simply sprinkle some saw dust and syrup on a real machine 'till it stops working. Then you will have a fake machine.
>On 3/13/10 10:52 PM, The Great Attractor wrote: >> On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 22:02:50 -0600, Sam Wormley<sworml...@gmail.com> >> wrote:
>>> On 3/11/10 7:52 PM, a7yvm109gf...@netzero.com wrote: >>>> Perpetual motion is built into the universe, it's a fundamental >>>> property of it. >>>> Of course, limited by its life span. >>>> See: Newton's first. >>>> "Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that >>>> state of motion unless an external force is applied to it. " >>>> Things move forever as long as they're not disturbed.
>>>> I guess that means perpetual motion is quite boring.
>>> The term perpetual motion, taken literally, refers to movement that goes >>> on forever. However, the term more commonly refers to any device or >>> system that perpetually (indefinitely) produces more energy than it >>> consumes, resulting in a net output of energy for indefinite time.
>>> The total momentum-energy of the universe is fixed and constant.
>> Yes... fixed at the value of ALL... and NOTHING.
>> If our "Universe" is a mere "bubble" inside a larger Superverse, then >> your claim needs re-evaluation.
> Maybe not.
In the grand, quantum scheme of things, I guess perhaps not.
His were straightforward: battery banks, plus very well hidden electrical connections. Much cooler would be to intercept ambient RF from distant AM stations, 60Hz b-fields, or perhaps harness the thermal IR of warm human passersby. Or build something which turns for weeks, while slowly destroying a permanent magnet.
((((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( (o) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty Research Engineer beaty a chem washington edu UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 billb a eskimo com Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700 ph206-762-3818 http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/
> On 3/11/10 7:52 PM, a7yvm109gf...@netzero.com wrote:
> > Perpetual motion is built into the universe, it's a fundamental > > property of it. > > Of course, limited by its life span. > > See: Newton's first. > > "Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that > > state of motion unless an external force is applied to it. " > > Things move forever as long as they're not disturbed.
> > I guess that means perpetual motion is quite boring.
> The term perpetual motion, taken literally, refers to movement that goes > on forever. However, the term more commonly refers to any device or > system that perpetually (indefinitely) produces more energy than it > consumes, resulting in a net output of energy for indefinite time.
> The total momentum-energy of the universe is fixed and constant.
Sam My lastest idea is to marry a wind turbine to large flywheel. Its machanical energy all the way down TreBert
On Mar 15, 1:27 am, Bill Beaty <bi...@eskimo.com> wrote:
> On Mar 14, 11:36 am, "Sue..." <suzysewns...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > Hardly worth the design time.
> It's the Randi technique: a good fake can lead many onlookers to think > more critically, and might even cause some of the believers to think > twice.
[...]
If you split a chunk of wood, you can glue it back together along the split and the split can be near impossible to detect. The chunk of wood can be hollowed out so that batteries, electronics and a a coil can be hidden inside.
Tubing can works as the structure for holding stuff up and as a way to hide the energy source. It can also work as a way to bring compressed air to the machine through a hidden pipe.
A table can have a powerful electromagnet hidden under it. If most of the machine is nonmagnetic the magnetic part that is attracted by the magnet can be some distance above the table.
The entire room can be on a giant turntable. If all the light sources and the camera etc are all in motion, a stationary weighted wheel would appear to be rotating.
You can give an object with low friction a spin with your hand and it will spin for a few minutes. Reverse the direction of the tape and then dub in your voice and you have a device that speeds up over time.
If really low amounts of power are needed, the natural changes in air temperature and pressure can be used as a power source.
((((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( (o) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty Research Engineer beaty a chem washington edu UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 billb a eskimo com Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700 ph206-762-3818 http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/
> Is there any math on how fast ""permanent magnet"" > generators (or DC motors used in that role) > wear down their magnets?
By "stressing" a permanent magnet (i.e., applying opposing magnetization), you drive its B-H curve slightly backwards. If you push it past the coercive force Hc, you'll demagnetize it. Fortunately, this takes an awful lot of magnetization (ca. 1MA/m). For normal operating levels, you only push the magnet a little way back along the B-H curve. Because it's quite square, the drop in remanence (field strength) is small, and after an initial burn-in at full load, it will remain quite the same for the rest of its operating life.
On Mar 15, 10:09 am, Sam Wormley <sworml...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/15/10 8:11 AM, bert wrote:
> > On Mar 14, 12:02 am, Sam Wormley<sworml...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> The total momentum-energy of the universe is fixed and constant.
> > Sam My lastest idea is to marry a wind turbine to large flywheel. Its > > machanical energy all the way down TreBert
> Put one on your boat, Herb!
Sam My Boat is so small.(just a barrel) Still wind was first used and every motor has a fly wheel. Flywheel can store energy. They are protential energy and go round and round I like that feature TreBert
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:31:50 -0700 (PDT), bert <herbertglazie...@msn.com> wrote: >On Mar 15, 10:09 am, Sam Wormley <sworml...@gmail.com> wrote: >> On 3/15/10 8:11 AM, bert wrote:
>> > On Mar 14, 12:02 am, Sam Wormley<sworml...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> The total momentum-energy of the universe is fixed and constant.
>> > Sam My lastest idea is to marry a wind turbine to large flywheel. Its >> > machanical energy all the way down TreBert
>> Put one on your boat, Herb!
>Sam My Boat is so small.(just a barrel) Still wind was first used and >every motor has a fly wheel. Flywheel can store energy. They are >protential energy and go round and round I like that feature TreBert
How odd, i can't think of an electric motor nor a turbine that has a flywheel.
