Etch resist Ink with Ink Jet printer Direct on PCB ?
Coolkits
Has anyone every tried putting Etch resist Ink in a BubbleJet or InkJet
printer and printing a PCB design directy onto the copper side of a PCB.
In this way one could skip the UV lighting and developing stage. I've seen
that some Epson printers can print directy onto thick hard materials, but
thats only been used to print directly onto CD's.
Has anybody tried this ? would normal ink work or should a special ink be
made ?
Greezt,
AtPCLogic
>From: "Coolkits" markus@_remove_this_coolkits.nl
>Date: 9/10/02 5:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3d7e5e13$0$34798$e4fe...@dreader3.news.xs4all.nl>
You're gonna need special inks. Also, the properties of the ink will need to
be compatible with the electronics in the inkjet printer. Modern inkjet
printers print at a much higher resolution than earlier devices, and using the
wrong ink will cause all sorts of print quality problems. In addition, you
will need to be careful about whether or not your inkjet printer has an print
head integrated with the ink tank, or is separate. I would advise using an
integrated head and a refill kit (roll your own here if you need etch resist
ink...) in case you screw up. Its fairly expensive to replace a head on one of
these things.....
Have fun.
Brad
PC Logic 'Circuit Layout' PCB Design Software
http://members.aol.com/atpclogic/index.html
cpemma
can be used, and the printed track ironed onto a board.
There's a commercial kit (Press 'n Peel) or you can use some glossy
papers
http://www.veys.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=news&file=article&sid=7&
mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
gagir
The best advise I saw was to use a CD printer.
I talked to a company doing R&D about this application but...
gagir
"Coolkits" <markus@_remove_this_coolkits.nl> wrote in message
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Jim Yanik
news:3d7e5e13$0$34798$e4fe...@dreader3.news.xs4all.nl:
I suspect most ink-jet inks are water-soluble,and thus would dissolve in an
etching solution. The performance of other inks would be questionable.How
are the printhead seals and gaskets going to tolerate the solvents?
--
Jim Yanik,NRA member
remove X to contact me
Adam Seychell
Considering inkjet inks are water soluble and etching solutions
contain water I don't think you will have much luck with standard
inks. The only possibility I can see is an aqueous UV curable ink.
http://www.radtech.org/mar_apr01_p_22.pdf
Let us know of your findigns.
Adam
Coolkits
> > Has anybody tried this ? would normal ink work or should a special ink
be
> > made ?
> Considering inkjet inks are water soluble and etching solutions
> contain water I don't think you will have much luck with standard
> inks. The only possibility I can see is an aqueous UV curable ink.
>
> http://www.radtech.org/mar_apr01_p_22.pdf
>
> Let us know of your findigns.
Hmm well,
i took a look at Printheads and on de XAAR site i found this statment about
inks
"We pride ourselves on our ability to provide our customers with an enhanced
portfolio of specially formulated inks to chose from and these include
pigmented oil-based, solvent and dye-sublimation. Our UV curable inks allow
Xaar printheads to print onto a range of non-porous substrates, including
PVC, PE, polycarbonate, polypropylene, ABS, copper and steel. A range of
aqueous inks for vinyl and textiles is under development."
So there seems to be hope, but like always more questions are raised,
like:
what do these printheads cost ?
and how do fire the drops ?, how to inteface
also saw that Aprion has this very long printhead (6 inch) that would take
away the need for X axis movement in a printer design , if the PCBs where
not to big.
But it does Pigmented water-based inks only so i guess its a nono.
On the IJT site they list "Printed Circuit Board fabrication" as a posible
application, They also claim to support "Industrial Solvent Pigmented inks",
"Signage Solvent Pigment inks" and "UV curable inks". So again there is
hope. But they could also be talking about printing the silkscreen symbol
layer.
anybody know what "Sigage Solvent" means ?
I guess you could buy a old scrap printer and retrofit it as new printhead.
Anyone up for such a project ?
Other links:
http://www.picojet.com/ and
http://www.screenweb.com/digital/cont/headsup2.htm
Greezt,
Markus
Bill Sloman
Most ink-jet printers use the Canon/HP BubbleJet technology, where a
little heater warms up a water based ink to produce a bubble of steam,
which shoots a droplet of ink at the paper.
Because the print-head runs hot, and in water, it corrodes pretty
fast, so these printers build the print-head into the ink cartridge,
and limit the volume of ink to make sure that the print-head gets
replaced before the corrosion is too bad.
They don't sound too suitable for dispensing etch resistant inks.
Epson uses a piezo-electric print-head, which squirts droplets of
alcohol-based ink (don't try to drink it - the alcohol isn't ethanol
but something less volatile, possibly iso-propyl alcohol or something
heavier). The print head runs cool and doesn't corrode, so your
ink-cartridge just contains ink (and a good deal more ink than the
BubbleJet ink cartridges).
These sorts of printers may be able to dispense etch resistant inks,
but my old Epson Stylus Color 800 spends ages (and gallons of ink)
rinsing the print head whenever I turn it on after it has been off for
more than a day or two, and if your etch-resistant ink doesn't behave
in much the same way as their regular inks, it will clog the print
head, after which you can more or less throw the printer away.
Tony Williams has worked out how to get into one of the Epson Stylus
print-heads (not a procedure supported by Epson) and rinse it clean
with cheaper solvents than their ink, but I lost his instructions
(embarrassing mistake)and ended up buying an end-of-line bargain
colour printer rather than cleaning the old print-head in my by then
five-year-old b/w printer.
-----
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
gagir
gagir
"Bill Sloman" <bill....@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:7c584d27.0209...@posting.google.com...
Jim Yanik
news:7c584d27.0209...@posting.google.com:
One other thing to consider is that ink-jet inks soak into paper,but will
not on a copperclad surface,perhaps getting smeared from moving printhead
or rollers.
Would dot coverage be good enough to prevent pinholes? It would not be a
true solid line or polygon.
Maybe a thermal-wax printer would be better.
Mike
wrote:
>bill....@ieee.org (Bill Sloman) wrote in
>news:7c584d27.0209...@posting.google.com:
>
>> Jim Yanik <jya...@kua.net> wrote in message
>> news:<Xns9285E13D1DF...@204.117.192.21>...
>>> "Coolkits" <markus@_remove_this_coolkits.nl> wrote in
>>> news:3d7e5e13$0$34798$e4fe...@dreader3.news.xs4all.nl:
>>>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Has anyone every tried putting Etch resist Ink in a BubbleJet or
>>> > InkJet printer and printing a PCB design directy onto the copper
>>> > side of a PCB. In this way one could skip the UV lighting and
>>> > developing stage. I've seen that some Epson printers can print
>>> > directy onto thick hard materials, but thats only been used to
>>> > print directly onto CD's.
>>> >
>>> > Has anybody tried this ? would normal ink work or should a special
>>> > ink be made ?
>>> >
>>> > Greezt,
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>
>One other thing to consider is that ink-jet inks soak into paper,but will
>not on a copperclad surface,perhaps getting smeared from moving printhead
>or rollers.
Lot of mis-truths in this thread, how about the new Epson that prints
directly to CDs, the ink doesn't soak into the plastic! Secondly
earlier Epsons did have water soluable ink but my Epson Stylus Photo
(a few years old now) uses a non water based ink, leastwise when
printed on paper the print is water proof.
Bill Sloman
Nice of you to add your own mis-truth to the thread. Epson inks have
always been alcohol based. This didn't mean that the original inks
were water-proof - they used to use alcohol soluble dyes to get the
colours, including black, and these dyes were also soluble in water,
whence non-water-proof. I understand that they went over to suspended
pigments for black ink some time ago, and for the other colours more
recently. I suspect they may have also changed the alcohol - the ink
cartridges are now lasting longer.
----
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
Mike
wrote:
>>
>> Lot of mis-truths in this thread, how about the new Epson that prints
>> directly to CDs, the ink doesn't soak into the plastic! Secondly
>> earlier Epsons did have water soluable ink but my Epson Stylus Photo
>> (a few years old now) uses a non water based ink, leastwise when
>> printed on paper the print is water proof.
>
>Nice of you to add your own mis-truth to the thread. Epson inks have
>always been alcohol based. This didn't mean that the original inks
>were water-proof - they used to use alcohol soluble dyes to get the
>colours, including black, and these dyes were also soluble in water,
>whence non-water-proof. I understand that they went over to suspended
>pigments for black ink some time ago, and for the other colours more
>recently. I suspect they may have also changed the alcohol - the ink
>cartridges are now lasting longer.
>
>----
>Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
OK I admit I guessed on the make up of the earlier inks, not having
the slightest knowledge of chemistry I guessed that as the output
disolved in water then it was water based. Thankfully I live and
learn.
So we now know that an Epson printer can print onto a copper clad
board, the question now is will the current ink resist attack by a
ferric chloride solution? Finally will a vigerous attack with wire
wool & water (or other 'safe' solution) remove the ink from the copper
such that it may be tinned?
Andrew VK3BFA
> > > Has anybody tried this ? would normal ink work or should a special ink
> be
> > > made ?
>
A more germane point is, "how does the printer wrap a piece of PCB
through the paper path" - they probably exist, but I havent seen a
flatbed XY injet printer.
Commercial ones do exist (they do the signs on the side of tautliners)
and indeed the ink is water proof. it also comes in 5 litre bottles
that attatch to the printheads. Oh yes, the team of on site
technicians needed to maintain it...
Sounds like you need a old HP or Roland or Whatever flatbed XY
plotter....
MrMercedes
> >Has anyone every tried putting Etch resist Ink in a BubbleJet or InkJet
> >printer and printing a PCB design directy onto the copper side of a PCB.
As a matter of fact I have. I thought about turning this into a commercial
product, but
I just don't have the time. Too many other projects to do. I even went so
far as to
turn an inkjet into a flatbed plotter. The problem there is converting the
stepper motor driven
motion of the platten roller into linear motion with the stepper using belts
or gears or
electronic gear ratio reduction for the steps. All three methods work but I
like the
belt and gears method best.
I tried modifying printers to feed a board through as is, but that was just
too much trouble.
Some would feed thin stock just fine but others wouldn't. The flat bed
approach solves that.
Plus the flat bed approach with some simple guide pins lets you do double
sided boards with
accurate side to side registration.
For ink, I found two things that work well standing up to the etchant.
Acrylic Floor Polish.
Shellac
Floor polish ( sometimes called wax ) ( I used the Future brand ) works well
and won't gum
up the printheads as easily as Shellac does.
Floor polish is removed with Ammonia.
Shellac with Denatured Alcohol.
I used three different types of printers. A Lexmark where the head is built
into the cartridge,
an HP where the printhead is separate from the cartridge but still uses
thermal "bubble" jet
technology and an Epson which uses piezoelectric technology.
The winner was the Lexmark. Easy cartridge to refill and cheap enough to
replace.
The problem in all this is that to use straight "ink" that is very water (
and then etchant ) proof
is, it will dry on your printhead orifices. The solution to that is a valve.
One path to ink, one path
to a flushing fluid. Before you print the board, run a cycle of "ink" to
clear out all your flush fluid.
Once you have finished printing, run a cycle of flushing fluid to purge all
your "ink".
Ammonia diluted with water works great on the acrylic polish ink. You can
even put a little regular
inkjet ink into it to color it so it's easier to see on the PC board blank.
Once you get the "ink" on the board and have etched it, you can clean it off
with just a quick spray of
Windex or other ammonia based cleaner.
I have no idea as to the benefits or problems with acrylics as conformal
coatings but I plan to try it
some day on a finished board. Just dip it in Future polish and see what
happens!
Another thought I had was a PVA ( poly vinyl alcohol ) based ink but the PVA
I had on hand didn't
thin out well to run in an inkjet. The acrylic ink worked well enough so I
didn't really pursue PVA much.
Now go have fun......
later,
Larry Edington.
Andrew Tweddle
Baked on shellac has been used as a resist on copper for a very long
time.