Power mains question: wire gauge

[DaveC]

Air compressor 1/2 hp motor rated 220v (2-wire, not 3-phase) @ 15A. Distance
from load panel ~100 ft (as the conduit runs).

15A can be handled by 14 gauge, but I'd normally go with 12 gauge due to
start current.

With such a distance, is it recommend to up-scale the wire to 10 ga?

Thanks.

[Michael A. Terrell]

I would, since the starting current is much higher.

[SoothSayer]

Cant hurt. It would definitely help, in fact. multiple #14s to make
each #10 would work better, keeping each segment electrically separated
except at the nodes, giving a sort of Litz effect. At that gauge, you
can get SPC too (Silver Plated Copper), reducing ohms per foot without
increasing gauge above #10.

And you want a #12 return run for ground fault carriage too.
A single piece would pop a breaker.

[Phil Allison]

"DaveC"

> Air compressor 1/2 hp motor rated 220v (2-wire, not 3-phase) @ 15A.

** Giant HUH ??

Such a motor normally draws around 3 amps.




... Phil

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 28 Dec 2012 15:41:08 -0800, DaveC <inv...@invalid.net> wrote:

#12 is 1.6 mohms/foot. That's 0.32 ohms total. The short-circuit
current from 220 volts is almost 700 amps. A half horse is only around
400 watts, about 2 amps. I'd use #14.

[lang...@fonz.dk]

On Dec 29, 12:48 am, SoothSayer <SaySo...@TheMonastery.org> wrote:

considered what the skin deepth at 60Hz is?....

-Lasse

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

Up to 4.9 Amps, according to the 2011 NEC (Table 430.248). And that's all
you have to provide in terms of feeder/branch circuit ampacity.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Pa...@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

[SoothSayer]

On Fri, 28 Dec 2012 17:51:18 -0800, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
<pa...@hovnanian.com> wrote:

>Phil Allison wrote:
>
>>
>> "DaveC"
>>
>>> Air compressor 1/2 hp motor rated 220v (2-wire, not 3-phase) @ 15A.
>>
>>
>> ** Giant HUH ??
>>
>> Such a motor normally draws around 3 amps.
>
>Up to 4.9 Amps, according to the 2011 NEC (Table 430.248). And that's all
>you have to provide in terms of feeder/branch circuit ampacity.

Maybe the decimal placement error is on the amps. 1.5 instead of 15.
That math works too, btw. 220 * 1.5 = 330 or ~ .5 HP

[Bill]

In article <0001HW.CD036E14...@news.eternal-september.org>,
inv...@invalid.net says...

There is s thing called "voltage drop". Voltage will drop in a wire
running a long distance, sometimes so much, the device at the end will
not operate!

The amount of voltage drop depends on the voltage, the type of metal
used for the wire (copper / aluminum), the wire size, and the load in
amperage at the end of that wire.

The internet has made this easy for you. Just search google.com for the
words...

Voltage Drop Calculator

[John Fields]

200' of 14AWG solid copper wire has a resistance of about 0.5 ohms, so
if your locked rotor current is 15A, then the drop across the cable
will be 7.5V when the motor first starts up, leaving 212.5V for the
motor. No problem.

If your motor is about 80% efficient, then at full load it'll be
taking about 466 watts from the mains, which is about 2.1A.

2.1A through 200' of 14AWG ohm will drop about 1.1V across the run,
leaving about 219 for the motor. Absolutely no problem with 14AWG, so
don't waste your money on what you don't need.

--
JF

[John Fields]

---
The short circuit current through the wire resistance is irrelevant.
What matters is the stall current through the motor when it's starting
up; no doubt the 15A the OP mentioned.

14AWG is till a good call though, since 15A will drop only about 7.5V
across the run.


>
--
JF

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 29 Dec 2012 12:20:01 -0600, John Fields
<jfi...@austininstruments.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 28 Dec 2012 16:05:49 -0800, John Larkin
><jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 28 Dec 2012 15:41:08 -0800, DaveC <inv...@invalid.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Air compressor 1/2 hp motor rated 220v (2-wire, not 3-phase) @ 15A. Distance
>>>from load panel ~100 ft (as the conduit runs).
>>>
>>>15A can be handled by 14 gauge, but I'd normally go with 12 gauge due to
>>>start current.
>>>
>>>With such a distance, is it recommend to up-scale the wire to 10 ga?
>>>
>>>Thanks.
>>
>>#12 is 1.6 mohms/foot. That's 0.32 ohms total. The short-circuit
>>current from 220 volts is almost 700 amps. A half horse is only around
>>400 watts, about 2 amps. I'd use #14.
>
>---
>The short circuit current through the wire resistance is irrelevant.

It is not. If 700 amps is available, there's a huge margin for the
startup current for a dinky motor like this one. And plenty of current
to blow a breaker if needed.

>What matters is the stall current through the motor when it's starting
>up; no doubt the 15A the OP mentioned.

Exactly. It needs 15, we have 700. We don't need #10 wire.

>
>14AWG is till a good call though, since 15A will drop only about 7.5V
>across the run.

We're basically doing the same calculation, demonstrating that #12 (or
14) is plenty good enough.

[Michael A. Terrell]

John Larkin wrote:
>
> We're basically doing the same calculation, demonstrating that #12 (or
> 14) is plenty good enough.

Until the motor or compressor is replaced with a larger unit. Then
all bets are off. It's cheaper to do it right the first time. You
could even put a small breaker box by the compressor & run AWG 6 to it,
to power other tools, as needed without starting from scratch.

[DaveC]

> Until the motor or compressor is replaced with a larger unit. Then
> all bets are off. It's cheaper to do it right the first time. You
> could even put a small breaker box by the compressor & run AWG 6 to it,
> to power other tools, as needed without starting from scratch.

That's a good idea. I'll talk it over with the owner.

But for now I want to settle on what size conductor to use if it's just to
supply this one compressor.

Thanks.

[DaveC]

> The NEC motor tables for 1/2 HP single phase at 230 specify FLA of 4.9A and
> LRA of about 30A. NEC also recommends sizing branch line for no more than 5%
> voltage drop. So if you want to power through the start-up with less than 5%
> line drop, that would be less than 0.05 x 220= 11V at 30 Amps for a maximum
> line resistance of 11V/30A= 0.37R. For a total line length (supply and
> return) of 200 feet this comes to 0.37R/200=1.8 milliOhms/ft wire. Looking at

> the AWG table http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge , 12 gauge
> comes in at 1.588 milliOhm/ft. Therefore 12 gauge is within the guidelines
> required for trouble free service. Turning the problem around and asking for
> maximum acceptable length with 14 gauge, 2.525 milliOhms/ft, you would then
> solve 2 x L x 2.525E-3=0.37R for L= 73 ft one-way length, so you might want
> to look at the exact distance. Circuit protection should be for 1/2HP motor
> load in any case.

Thanks for your reply.

Sorry you did all that calculation on the wrong HP rating. (See my post
earlier today.) Motor is actually rated 3.1 HP.

Thanks.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sat, 29 Dec 2012 14:57:19 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>John Larkin wrote:
>>
>> We're basically doing the same calculation, demonstrating that #12 (or
>> 14) is plenty good enough.
>
>
> Until the motor or compressor is replaced with a larger unit. Then
>all bets are off. It's cheaper to do it right the first time.

If it's 1/2HP, now, it's unlikely to grow to >5HP.

>You
>could even put a small breaker box by the compressor & run AWG 6 to it,
>to power other tools, as needed without starting from scratch.

Run several #12s, instead, when needed. It's cheaper.

[notme]

> Run several #12s, instead, when needed. It's cheaper.

Pull additional #12s in the future? I've had bad experience pulling
additional conductors in a conduit with existing conductors.

If I misunderstand your statement, please try again. ;-)

Thanks.

[MrTallyman]

No. A bundle of a few 12s will make a nice oversized #10.
The finished 'wire' will be stronger and more flexible too.

Of course, the return has to match. So you pull all 7 at once.

Two sets of 3 #12s and one #12 fault return. Seven wires.

[bloggs.fred...@gmail.com]

Strictly against code!

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sat, 29 Dec 2012 13:04:27 -0800, notme <no...@notme.org> wrote:

>> Run several #12s, instead, when needed. It's cheaper.
>
>Pull additional #12s in the future? I've had bad experience pulling
>additional conductors in a conduit with existing conductors.

Conduit?

[Michael A. Terrell]

k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>
> On Sat, 29 Dec 2012 14:57:19 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

> ?mike.t...@earthlink.net? wrote:
>
> ?
> ?John Larkin wrote:
> ??
> ?? We're basically doing the same calculation, demonstrating that #12 (or
> ?? 14) is plenty good enough.
> ?
> ?
> ? Until the motor or compressor is replaced with a larger unit. Then
> ?all bets are off. It's cheaper to do it right the first time.
>
> If it's 1/2HP, now, it's unlikely to grow to ?5HP.


I've never seen a 240 volt compressor it a 1/2 HP motor 2 HP is
common, and go on up as the capacity increases. A local business
recently switched from multiple 2 HP 240 VAC 60 gallon compressors to a
pair of 480 VAC three phase units with 120 gallon tanks that are set upi
to run their entire production line from one unit. It was the old EDCO
factory that Emerson closed a few years ago..


> ?You
> ?could even put a small breaker box by the compressor ? run AWG 6 to it,
> ?to power other tools, as needed without starting from scratch.

>
> Run several #12s, instead, when needed. It's cheaper.

Cheaper? When did yo go over to the 'Do it any way but right' side?


It's not cheaper when the extra labor and increased material costs
are added for doing the job more than once. If you didn't size the
conduit for more wire, you'll have to rip it all out & start over.

Then there's the cost of a bribe to get the inspector to look the
other way.

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 29 Dec 2012 14:57:19 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

Well, then why stop at #6? Run 3KV and a distribution transformer. You
never know.

[Michael A. Terrell]

John Larkin wrote:
>
> On Sat, 29 Dec 2012 14:57:19 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

> ?mike.t...@earthlink.net? wrote:
>
> ?
> ?John Larkin wrote:
> ??

> ?? We're basically doing the same calculation, demonstrating that #12 (or
> ?? 14) is plenty good enough.
> ?
> ?
> ? Until the motor or compressor is replaced with a larger unit. Then
> ?all bets are off. It's cheaper to do it right the first time. You
> ?could even put a small breaker box by the compressor ? run AWG 6 to it,
> ?to power other tools, as needed without starting from scratch.

>
> Well, then why stop at #6? Run 3KV and a distribution transformer. You
> never know.

Who uses 3KV?

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sat, 29 Dec 2012 16:49:01 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 29 Dec 2012 14:57:19 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
>> ?mike.t...@earthlink.net? wrote:
>>
>> ?
>> ?John Larkin wrote:
>> ??
>> ?? We're basically doing the same calculation, demonstrating that #12 (or
>> ?? 14) is plenty good enough.
>> ?
>> ?
>> ? Until the motor or compressor is replaced with a larger unit. Then
>> ?all bets are off. It's cheaper to do it right the first time.
>>
>> If it's 1/2HP, now, it's unlikely to grow to ?5HP.
>
>
> I've never seen a 240 volt compressor it a 1/2 HP motor 2 HP is
>common, and go on up as the capacity increases.

I've seen a *lot* of 1/2HP motors used for power tools that can be
wired either way.

>A local business
>recently switched from multiple 2 HP 240 VAC 60 gallon compressors to a
>pair of 480 VAC three phase units with 120 gallon tanks that are set upi
>to run their entire production line from one unit. It was the old EDCO
>factory that Emerson closed a few years ago..

Rather irrelevant.

>
>> ?You
>> ?could even put a small breaker box by the compressor ? run AWG 6 to it,
>> ?to power other tools, as needed without starting from scratch.
>>
>> Run several #12s, instead, when needed. It's cheaper.
>
>
> Cheaper? When did yo go over to the 'Do it any way but right' side?

I always do it the right way. The "right way" depends on the
situation. I guess the "right side" is universal, though, but it's
also right.

> It's not cheaper when the extra labor and increased material costs
>are added for doing the job more than once. If you didn't size the
>conduit for more wire, you'll have to rip it all out & start over.

It's a *lot* cheaper. #6 is a PITA to work with. No thanks!

> Then there's the cost of a bribe to get the inspector to look the
>other way.

Now you're throwing in random costs.

[k...@attt.bizz]

OK, 300K.

[John S]

No, DaveC, the first sentence of your original post is:

"Air compressor 1/2 hp motor rated 220v (2-wire, not 3-phase) @ 15A.
Distance from load panel ~100 ft (as the conduit runs)."

That reads 1/2 hp to everybody but you, I guess.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sat, 29 Dec 2012 17:48:31 -0600, John S <Sop...@invalid.org>
wrote:

I'm not buying 3.1HP, either. Has anyone ever seen a 3.1HP motor?
This *has* to be a troll. Maybe one of Bopal's sockpuppets.

[John G]

Bill explained :

> In article <0001HW.CD036E14...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> inv...@invalid.net says...
>>
>> Air compressor 1/2 hp motor rated 220v (2-wire, not 3-phase) @ 15A. Distance
>> from load panel ~100 ft (as the conduit runs).
>>
>> 15A can be handled by 14 gauge, but I'd normally go with 12 gauge due to
>> start current.
>>
>> With such a distance, is it recommend to up-scale the wire to 10 ga?
>>
>
>
> There is s thing called "voltage drop". Voltage will drop in a wire
> running a long distance, sometimes so much, the device at the end will
> not operate!
>
> The amount of voltage drop depends on the voltage, the type of metal
> used for the wire (copper / aluminum), the wire size, and the load in
> amperage at the end of that wire.

The supply voltage has no bearing on the voltage drop.
Only the wire size, the wire material, the run length (there snd back)
and the load current affect the voltage drop in any line.

The supply voltage is required in those calulators only to allow the
calculation of the percentage drop from the original supply not the
actual volts lost.

>
> The internet has made this easy for you. Just search google.com for the
> words...
>
> Voltage Drop Calculator

--
John G

[Michael A. Terrell]

k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>
> On Sat, 29 Dec 2012 18:18:22 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

> ?mike.t...@earthlink.net? wrote:
>
> ?
> ?John Larkin wrote:
> ??

> ?? On Sat, 29 Dec 2012 14:57:19 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
> ?? ?mike.t...@earthlink.net? wrote:
> ??
> ?? ?

> ?? ?John Larkin wrote:
> ?? ??
> ?? ?? We're basically doing the same calculation, demonstrating that #12 (or

> ?? ?? 14) is plenty good enough.
> ?? ?
> ?? ?
> ?? ? Until the motor or compressor is replaced with a larger unit. Then
> ?? ?all bets are off. It's cheaper to do it right the first time. You
> ?? ?could even put a small breaker box by the compressor ? run AWG 6 to it,
> ?? ?to power other tools, as needed without starting from scratch.
> ??
> ?? Well, then why stop at #6? Run 3KV and a distribution transformer. You
> ?? never know.
> ?
> ?
> ? Who uses 3KV?
>
> OK, 300K.


Inside your home? Or where you work?

[Michael A. Terrell]

k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>
> I've seen a *lot* of 1/2HP motors used for power tools that can be
> wired either way.

On an air compressor?

[Tom Biasi]

How about run what you need now with a pull string included?

[k...@attt.bizz]

Sure. Most small fractional horse induction motors can be.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sat, 29 Dec 2012 19:53:40 -0500, Tom Biasi <tomb...@optonline.net>
wrote:

I think we have a winner!

[k...@attt.bizz]

Hey, you never know how big of a compressor you might need.

[rickman]

On 12/29/2012 3:05 PM, DaveC wrote:
>> Until the motor or compressor is replaced with a larger unit. Then
>> all bets are off. It's cheaper to do it right the first time. You

>> could even put a small breaker box by the compressor& run AWG 6 to it,

>> to power other tools, as needed without starting from scratch.
>
> That's a good idea. I'll talk it over with the owner.
>
> But for now I want to settle on what size conductor to use if it's just to
> supply this one compressor.
>
> Thanks.
>

100 feet of AWG 6 will set you back some C-notes. That's an expensive
investment if you don't need it.

Rick

[SoothSayer]

What utter idiot suggested #6?

[Spehro Pefhany]

It's also a sweaty PITA to pull.. ( I ran some to a manly (for single
phase) compressor and kiln).


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

[John Fields]

On Sat, 29 Dec 2012 11:04:23 -0800, John Larkin
<jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 29 Dec 2012 12:20:01 -0600, John Fields
><jfi...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 28 Dec 2012 16:05:49 -0800, John Larkin
>><jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

>>
>>>On Fri, 28 Dec 2012 15:41:08 -0800, DaveC <inv...@invalid.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Air compressor 1/2 hp motor rated 220v (2-wire, not 3-phase) @ 15A. Distance
>>>>from load panel ~100 ft (as the conduit runs).
>>>>
>>>>15A can be handled by 14 gauge, but I'd normally go with 12 gauge due to
>>>>start current.
>>>>
>>>>With such a distance, is it recommend to up-scale the wire to 10 ga?
>>>>

>>>>Thanks.
>>>
>>>#12 is 1.6 mohms/foot. That's 0.32 ohms total. The short-circuit
>>>current from 220 volts is almost 700 amps. A half horse is only around
>>>400 watts, about 2 amps. I'd use #14.
>>
>>---
>>The short circuit current through the wire resistance is irrelevant.
>
>It is not. If 700 amps is available, there's a huge margin for the
>startup current for a dinky motor like this one. And plenty of current
>to blow a breaker if needed.
>
>
>>What matters is the stall current through the motor when it's starting
>>up; no doubt the 15A the OP mentioned.
>
>Exactly. It needs 15, we have 700. We don't need #10 wire.
>
>>
>>14AWG is till a good call though, since 15A will drop only about 7.5V
>>across the run.

>
>We're basically doing the same calculation, demonstrating that #12 (or

>14) is plenty good enough.

---
Our calculations are vastly different since mine takes both the locked
rotor and full load current into consideration and determines the
voltage drop in the cable for both cases.

Yours doesn't, since it considers neither the locked rotor current nor
the voltage drops.

--
JF

[Jasen Betts]

On 2012-12-29, Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
> John Larkin wrote:
>>
>> We're basically doing the same calculation, demonstrating that #12 (or
>> 14) is plenty good enough.
>
>

> Until the motor or compressor is replaced with a larger unit.

a larger compresser is likely to have a soft start where the pump
compression is releived come on until it's up to speed.




--
⚂⚃ 100% natural

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---

[Jasen Betts]

On 2012-12-29, Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> John Larkin wrote:
>>
>> We're basically doing the same calculation, demonstrating that #12 (or
>> 14) is plenty good enough.
>
>
> Until the motor or compressor is replaced with a larger unit.

a larger compresser is likely to have a soft start where the pump

compression is releived until it's up to speed.




--
⚂⚃ 100% natural

[bloggs.fred...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, December 29, 2012 6:48:31 PM UTC-5, John S wrote:

> No, DaveC, the first sentence of your original post is:
>
>
>
> "Air compressor 1/2 hp motor rated 220v (2-wire, not 3-phase) @ 15A.
>
> Distance from load panel ~100 ft (as the conduit runs)."
>
>
>
> That reads 1/2 hp to everybody but you, I guess.

Don't bother wasting time on the troll. It's the same eternal-september troll who asks a bunch of simple-minded questions here under a variety of names. Last time he was pretending to be an Indian electronics student struggling with 'models'.

[orion....@virgin.net]

On Sunday, 30 December 2012 07:45:03 UTC+1, SoothSayer wrote:

> What utter idiot suggested #6?

Perhaps the OP made a mistake with his cable run length as well as his horsepower and meant *100,000ft* - in which case, maybe #6 isn't so crazy. :-D

[John S]

Okay, thanks, Fred. He is now ignored.

[rickman]

Try reading from the top of the post...

Rick

[Michael A. Terrell]

k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>
> On Sat, 29 Dec 2012 20:52:31 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

> ?mike.t...@earthlink.net? wrote:
>
> ?
> ?k...@attt.bizz wrote:
> ??
> ?? I've seen a *lot* of 1/2HP motors used for power tools that can be
> ?? wired either way.
> ?
> ?
> ? On an air compressor?

>
> Sure. Most small fractional horse induction motors can be.

Those are toys, but they might be acceptable to amateur woodworkers.
The ONLY thing I use a compressor that small for is to blow dust out of
a computer.

[Michael A. Terrell]

rickman wrote:
>
> On 12/29/2012 3:05 PM, DaveC wrote:

> ?? Until the motor or compressor is replaced with a larger unit. Then
> ?? all bets are off. It's cheaper to do it right the first time. You
> ?? could even put a small breaker box by the compressor? run AWG 6 to it,
> ?? to power other tools, as needed without starting from scratch.
> ?
> ? That's a good idea. I'll talk it over with the owner.
> ?
> ? But for now I want to settle on what size conductor to use if it's just to
> ? supply this one compressor.
> ?
> ? Thanks.
> ?

>
> 100 feet of AWG 6 will set you back some C-notes. That's an expensive
> investment if you don't need it.

The suggestion was to put in a sub panel, if there is a likelyhood of
more tools that require 240.

[Michael A. Terrell]

k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>
> Tom Biasi wrote:
> ??
> ?How about run what you need now with a pull string included?

>
> I think we have a winner!

How much wire have you pulled?

[Michael A. Terrell]

k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>
> On Sat, 29 Dec 2012 20:51:35 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

> ?mike.t...@earthlink.net? wrote:
>
> ?
> ?k...@attt.bizz wrote:
> ??
> ?? On Sat, 29 Dec 2012 18:18:22 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

> ?? ?mike.t...@earthlink.net? wrote:
> ??
> ?? ?
> ?? ?John Larkin wrote:
> ?? ??
> ?? ?? On Sat, 29 Dec 2012 14:57:19 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

> ?? ?? ?mike.t...@earthlink.net? wrote:
> ?? ??

> ?? ?? ?

> ?? ?? ?John Larkin wrote:
> ?? ?? ??
> ?? ?? ?? We're basically doing the same calculation, demonstrating that #12 (or

> ?? ?? ?? 14) is plenty good enough.
> ?? ?? ?
> ?? ?? ?
> ?? ?? ? Until the motor or compressor is replaced with a larger unit. Then
> ?? ?? ?all bets are off. It's cheaper to do it right the first time. You
> ?? ?? ?could even put a small breaker box by the compressor ? run AWG 6 to it,
> ?? ?? ?to power other tools, as needed without starting from scratch.

> ?? ??
> ?? ?? Well, then why stop at #6? Run 3KV and a distribution transformer. You

> ?? ?? never know.
> ?? ?
> ?? ?
> ?? ? Who uses 3KV?
> ??
> ?? OK, 300K.
> ?
> ?
> ? Inside your home? Or where you work?

>
> Hey, you never know how big of a compressor you might need.

Yawn, that's a dimbulb sized stawman.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jasen Betts wrote:
>
> On 2012-12-29, Michael A. Terrell ?mike.t...@earthlink.net? wrote:
> ?
> ? John Larkin wrote:
> ??
> ?? We're basically doing the same calculation, demonstrating that #12 (or
> ?? 14) is plenty good enough.
> ?
> ?
> ? Until the motor or compressor is replaced with a larger unit.

>
> a larger compresser is likely to have a soft start where the pump
> compression is releived come on until it's up to speed.

Really? Easy on three phase, with a VFD. They use an unloader of
single phase to let the motor come up to speed before adding the load.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jasen Betts wrote:
>
> On 2012-12-29, Michael A. Terrell ?mike.t...@earthlink.net? wrote:
> ?
> ? John Larkin wrote:
> ??

> ?? We're basically doing the same calculation, demonstrating that #12 (or
> ?? 14) is plenty good enough.
> ?
> ?
> ? Until the motor or compressor is replaced with a larger unit.

>
> a larger compresser is likely to have a soft start where the pump
> compression is releived until it's up to speed.

You already said that.

[k...@attt.bizz]

...and it's almost always cheaper and easier to run tools separately
from the main with more common, and *far* less expensive, #14 or #12.

[k...@attt.bizz]

Utter nonsense. It's good enough to run any nailer or any hobby
equipment, with the possible exception of a paint sprayer. Actually,
mine isn't any bigger, though it has a universal motor (and so rated
in magic Sears HP). BTW, the OP *did* say 1/2HP. If you want to grow
a full auto body shop from that...

[k...@attt.bizz]

Enough to know I detest anything approaching 36 wire. An a appeal to
authority? Come on.

[k...@attt.bizz]

No, simply giving you back some of your "logic".

[Michael A. Terrell]

Really? Even when they are across the production floor from the main
breaker box? I can see you've never worked around a machine shop.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Yawn. He change that to 3 HP but as usual, you just want a pissing
match. Yes, you can use a nailer with a tiny compressor if you don't
mind it running constantly, and having to work slow because of the
recovery time. My dad is a retired cabinet maker, and won't use
anything under a 2 HP compressor for his nailers.

[Michael A. Terrell]

"approaching 36 wire"?

I've run into a lot of places where they had a pullsting in with
wires. It gets wrapped around the wires as it's pulled in, then srticks
to the inside of the conduit if they use pulling lube. Attempting to
pull in more wire doesn't work too well if there are any bends in the
conduit. The last pullstring I ran into was with some fiber optic
cables. I had to pull everything out of the conduit because they were
tangled. Then I had to use the fiber to pull in a piece of Cat5 cable
which was used to pull the fiber back, with several Cat5 cables.

[Michael A. Terrell]

No. You never think things through. Then you go on the attack, like
Dimbulb, Allison or Sloman. I said I would run AWG 10 for a compressor,
OR AWG 6 to a sub panel, if it made sense. Sense is something you
frequently lack. When I wired my 30' * 40' garage, it only had lights
but I used a 100A 20 circuit breaker box. The big tools will eventually
be installed near that box, but if any end up in the opposite corner,
I'll run a 1.5" conduit, some AWG 6 and install a sub panel in that
corner. There is a concept in wiring buildings called 'Futures' where a
few extra breakers are installed in a new panel, and conduit is stubbed
from the breaker box up into the ceiling or attic while the walls are
open. That allows two things. If a breaker fails, a replacement is
available. If a new circuit is needed, the conduit is run to an
accessible spot, and doesn't require messy & time consuming work in an
occupied building.

More than once I was called to a school when something critical was
down and found a failed breaker. I used the spare, and they ordered a
replacement. Simple, and cheap insurance.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 22:53:50 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

Certainly.

>Even when they are across the production floor from the main
>breaker box? I can see you've never worked around a machine shop.

Certainly. Almost always.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 22:57:06 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

He actually changed it to "3.1HP", which is pure bullocks. Goody for
your dad. It's a total waste to use a 2HP compressor just to drive
some tiny nails. Of course any "cabinet maker" would commit suicide
before using nails in cabinetry, but...

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 23:02:54 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 18:28:00 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
>> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Tom Biasi wrote:
>> >> ??
>> >> ?How about run what you need now with a pull string included?
>> >>
>> >> I think we have a winner!
>> >
>> >
>> > How much wire have you pulled?
>>
>> Enough to know I detest anything approaching 36 wire. An a appeal to
>> authority? Come on.
>
>
> "approaching 36 wire"?

I didn't get the shift key pressed for the '#', but you knew that.

>
> I've run into a lot of places where they had a pullsting in with
>wires. It gets wrapped around the wires as it's pulled in, then srticks
>to the inside of the conduit if they use pulling lube. Attempting to
>pull in more wire doesn't work too well if there are any bends in the
>conduit. The last pullstring I ran into was with some fiber optic
>cables. I had to pull everything out of the conduit because they were
>tangled. Then I had to use the fiber to pull in a piece of Cat5 cable
>which was used to pull the fiber back, with several Cat5 cables.

I guess anything can happen if you don't know what you're doing.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 23:13:11 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

Yes.

>You never think things through.

Good God, you're pissy tonight. Take a pain killer and come back
tomorrow!

>Then you go on the attack, like Dimbulb, Allison or Sloman.

Clueless.

>I said I would run AWG 10 for a compressor,

I'd run 12AWG. It's a *lot* cheaper and will handle the load quite
well.

>OR AWG 6 to a sub panel, if it made sense.

It *rarely* does.

>Sense is something you
>frequently lack. When I wired my 30' * 40' garage, it only had lights
>but I used a 100A 20 circuit breaker box. The big tools will eventually
>be installed near that box, but if any end up in the opposite corner,
>I'll run a 1.5" conduit, some AWG 6 and install a sub panel in that
>corner. There is a concept in wiring buildings called 'Futures' where a
>few extra breakers are installed in a new panel, and conduit is stubbed
>from the breaker box up into the ceiling or attic while the walls are
>open. That allows two things. If a breaker fails, a replacement is
>available. If a new circuit is needed, the conduit is run to an
>accessible spot, and doesn't require messy & time consuming work in an
>occupied building.

Yawn. You clearly overbuild everything, maybe because it's fun.
However, it's *NOT* economical. Running a separate service for each
tool (which is rarely even needed) is almost always cheaper.

> More than once I was called to a school when something critical was
>down and found a failed breaker. I used the spare, and they ordered a
>replacement. Simple, and cheap insurance.

Yawn.

[DaveC]

> How about run what you need now with a pull string included?

I've not had much success with pulling new conductors in a cable with
existing conductors. I found that the pull string doesn't lay nicely along
side the conductor when installed, instead threading itself through the
conductors. When it comes time to use the pull thread, the new conductors
intertwine with the existing ones... a real mess.

Unless there's a trick to this that I've not heard about...

Thanks.

[DaveC]

> I've run into a lot of places where they had a pullsting in with
> wires. It gets wrapped around the wires as it's pulled in, then srticks
> to the inside of the conduit if they use pulling lube. Attempting to
> pull in more wire doesn't work too well if there are any bends in the
> conduit. The last pullstring I ran into was with some fiber optic
> cables. I had to pull everything out of the conduit because they were
> tangled. Then I had to use the fiber to pull in a piece of Cat5 cable
> which was used to pull the fiber back, with several Cat5 cables.

That's been my (limited) experience too.

[Robert Baer]

DaveC wrote:
> Air compressor 1/2 hp motor rated 220v (2-wire, not 3-phase) @ 15A. Distance
> from load panel ~100 ft (as the conduit runs).
>

> 15A can be handled by 14 gauge, but I'd normally go with 12 gauge due to
> start current.
>
> With such a distance, is it recommend to up-scale the wire to 10 ga?
>
> Thanks.
>
YES!!

[bloggs.fred...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, December 30, 2012 2:01:38 AM UTC-5, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 01:28:08 -0500, the renowned rickman

>
> <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On 12/29/2012 3:05 PM, DaveC wrote:
>

> >>> Until the motor or compressor is replaced with a larger unit. Then
>

> >>> all bets are off. It's cheaper to do it right the first time. You
>

> >>> could even put a small breaker box by the compressor& run AWG 6 to it,

>
> >>> to power other tools, as needed without starting from scratch.
>
> >>
>

> >> That's a good idea. I'll talk it over with the owner.
>
> >>
>

> >> But for now I want to settle on what size conductor to use if it's just to
>

> >> supply this one compressor.
>
> >>
>
> >> Thanks.
>
> >>
>
> >
>

> >100 feet of AWG 6 will set you back some C-notes. That's an expensive
>
> >investment if you don't need it.
>
> >
>

> >Rick
>
>
>
> It's also a sweaty PITA to pull.. ( I ran some to a manly (for single
>
> phase) compressor and kiln).
>
>
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Spehro Pefhany
>
> --
>
> "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
>
> sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
>
> Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100660155/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=cable+lubricant&storeId=10051#.UOGuUuSrvRg

and for the really tough stuff you can rent something like this:
http://www.greenlee.com/products/PULLER-ASSEMBLY.html

[Michael A. Terrell]

k...@attt.bizz wrote:

>
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> >
> > Yawn. He change that to 3 HP but as usual, you just want a pissing
> >match. Yes, you can use a nailer with a tiny compressor if you don't
> >mind it running constantly, and having to work slow because of the
> >recovery time. My dad is a retired cabinet maker, and won't use
> >anything under a 2 HP compressor for his nailers.
>
> He actually changed it to "3.1HP", which is pure bullocks. Goody for
> your dad. It's a total waste to use a 2HP compressor just to drive
> some tiny nails. Of course any "cabinet maker" would commit suicide
> before using nails in cabinetry, but...

Sigh. He's RETIRED. He built more than cabinets in his home shop.
He has more than a nailer that needs compressed air in his shop. Go hump
someone else's leg.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Hell, we had six breaker boxes on the production floor at Microdyne
for outlets for workbenches on a 200' * 190' production area. Then
there was a power room with over 200 breakers for the other equipment.

> >Even when they are across the production floor from the main
> >breaker box? I can see you've never worked around a machine shop.
>
> Certainly. Almost always.

Certainly that you've never worked in a machine shop?

[Michael A. Terrell]

k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>
> I guess anything can happen if you don't know what you're doing.

You end up living in Alabama.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 11:05:03 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

Wrong, of course. There was one panel with a separate drop for each
tool.

BTW, did the OP specify a machine shop? I don't remember that part.

[Michael A. Terrell]

I don't take pain killers. None are prescribed.

> >Then you go on the attack, like Dimbulb, Allison or Sloman.
>
> Clueless.
>
> >I said I would run AWG 10 for a compressor,
>
> I'd run 12AWG. It's a *lot* cheaper and will handle the load quite
> well.

I'd run the 10. I have 14, 12 & 10 on hand. I use 14 for light
circuits, 12 for most 120V outlets, and 10 for the longer or heavier
loads. There is 75 feet of #6 run to the well house.

> >OR AWG 6 to a sub panel, if it made sense.
>
> It *rarely* does.

In your limited experience.

> >Sense is something you
> >frequently lack. When I wired my 30' * 40' garage, it only had lights
> >but I used a 100A 20 circuit breaker box. The big tools will eventually
> >be installed near that box, but if any end up in the opposite corner,
> >I'll run a 1.5" conduit, some AWG 6 and install a sub panel in that
> >corner. There is a concept in wiring buildings called 'Futures' where a
> >few extra breakers are installed in a new panel, and conduit is stubbed
> >from the breaker box up into the ceiling or attic while the walls are
> >open. That allows two things. If a breaker fails, a replacement is
> >available. If a new circuit is needed, the conduit is run to an
> >accessible spot, and doesn't require messy & time consuming work in an
> >occupied building.
>
> Yawn. You clearly overbuild everything, maybe because it's fun.
> However, it's *NOT* economical. Running a separate service for each
> tool (which is rarely even needed) is almost always cheaper.

You cut lots of corners and do everything on the edge of failure.
Labor cost more than the materials, so the difference in the total build
is small.

> > More than once I was called to a school when something critical was
> >down and found a failed breaker. I used the spare, and they ordered a
> >replacement. Simple, and cheap insurance.
>
> Yawn.

Of course you yawn. That's a requirement of the initial specs for
public buildings, everywhere that I've lived & worked.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 11:01:43 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>>
>> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>> >
>> > Yawn. He change that to 3 HP but as usual, you just want a pissing
>> >match. Yes, you can use a nailer with a tiny compressor if you don't
>> >mind it running constantly, and having to work slow because of the
>> >recovery time. My dad is a retired cabinet maker, and won't use
>> >anything under a 2 HP compressor for his nailers.
>>
>> He actually changed it to "3.1HP", which is pure bullocks. Goody for
>> your dad. It's a total waste to use a 2HP compressor just to drive
>> some tiny nails. Of course any "cabinet maker" would commit suicide
>> before using nails in cabinetry, but...
>
>
> Sigh. He's RETIRED. He built more than cabinets in his home shop.

So it's not a "machine shop". Giggle. Get real, Michael.

>He has more than a nailer that needs compressed air in his shop. Go hump
>someone else's leg.

You're the one doing the humping, Michael.

[k...@attt.bizz]

I don't live in Alabama, fool.

[Tom Biasi]

Those things can happen but they have never happened to me if I was the
one to run the wire and string.

[Michael A. Terrell]

k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>
> On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 11:01:43 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >k...@attt.bizz wrote:
> >>
> >> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Yawn. He change that to 3 HP but as usual, you just want a pissing
> >> >match. Yes, you can use a nailer with a tiny compressor if you don't
> >> >mind it running constantly, and having to work slow because of the
> >> >recovery time. My dad is a retired cabinet maker, and won't use
> >> >anything under a 2 HP compressor for his nailers.
> >>
> >> He actually changed it to "3.1HP", which is pure bullocks. Goody for
> >> your dad. It's a total waste to use a 2HP compressor just to drive
> >> some tiny nails. Of course any "cabinet maker" would commit suicide
> >> before using nails in cabinetry, but...
> >
> >
> > Sigh. He's RETIRED. He built more than cabinets in his home shop.
>
> So it's not a "machine shop". Giggle. Get real, Michael.

Not anymore. He worked for a schoolboard in their maintenece
complex. They had a MACHINE SHOP, cabinet shop and garage where they
did maintenece on all their vehicles. They had in house support for
everything except new costruction & roofing


Keep showing your petty ignorance.

[Michael A. Terrell]

You did, and you decided to move there so you're the fool.

[Michael A. Terrell]

That must have been a tiny shop.

> BTW, did the OP specify a machine shop? I don't remember that part.

He said he was going to suggest it to the owner, so who knows.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 12:28:31 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

Hardly, but you're dreaming again.

>
>> BTW, did the OP specify a machine shop? I don't remember that part.
>
>
> He said he was going to suggest it to the owner, so who knows.

So why not 500KV? You never know?

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 12:25:45 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

Still dry humping? Come on, Michael. Drop it already.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 12:26:28 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 11:06:30 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
>> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I guess anything can happen if you don't know what you're doing.
>> >
>> >
>> > You end up living in Alabama.
>>
>> I don't live in Alabama, fool.
>
>
> You did, and you decided to move there so you're the fool.

More dry humping from Michael. I hope you feel better soon.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 10:43:51 -0500, Tom Biasi <tomb...@optonline.net>
wrote:

The biggest thing is to make sure the wires go in straight. Kinks or
twists will make life miserable later. I've seen people pull Romex
off the center of the roll, without unrolling it. It makes a mess;
bad enough when pulling through rafters but it's a disaster in
conduit.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 11:12:59 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 23:13:11 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
>> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> >

<...>

>> >> No, simply giving you back some of your "logic".
>> >
>> >
>> > No.
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> >You never think things through.
>>
>> Good God, you're pissy tonight. Take a pain killer and come back
>> tomorrow!
>
>
> I don't take pain killers. None are prescribed.

You should. Obviously.

>
>> >Then you go on the attack, like Dimbulb, Allison or Sloman.
>>
>> Clueless.
>>
>> >I said I would run AWG 10 for a compressor,
>>
>> I'd run 12AWG. It's a *lot* cheaper and will handle the load quite
>> well.
>
> I'd run the 10. I have 14, 12 & 10 on hand. I use 14 for light
>circuits, 12 for most 120V outlets, and 10 for the longer or heavier
>loads. There is 75 feet of #6 run to the well house.

It doesn't matter what *YOU* have on hand. #12 works just fine and is
about 1/3 the cost of #10.

>
>> >OR AWG 6 to a sub panel, if it made sense.
>>
>> It *rarely* does.
>
>
> In your limited experience.

Almost *NEVER*. In this case, it's *STUPID* to even suggest it.

>> >Sense is something you
>> >frequently lack. When I wired my 30' * 40' garage, it only had lights
>> >but I used a 100A 20 circuit breaker box. The big tools will eventually
>> >be installed near that box, but if any end up in the opposite corner,
>> >I'll run a 1.5" conduit, some AWG 6 and install a sub panel in that
>> >corner. There is a concept in wiring buildings called 'Futures' where a
>> >few extra breakers are installed in a new panel, and conduit is stubbed
>> >from the breaker box up into the ceiling or attic while the walls are
>> >open. That allows two things. If a breaker fails, a replacement is
>> >available. If a new circuit is needed, the conduit is run to an
>> >accessible spot, and doesn't require messy & time consuming work in an
>> >occupied building.
>>
>> Yawn. You clearly overbuild everything, maybe because it's fun.
>> However, it's *NOT* economical. Running a separate service for each
>> tool (which is rarely even needed) is almost always cheaper.
>
>
> You cut lots of corners and do everything on the edge of failure.
>Labor cost more than the materials, so the difference in the total build
>is small.

Wrong. There is no corners cut at all. You're lying, just to make
some sort of point. You're wrong. Step up to it.

>
>> > More than once I was called to a school when something critical was
>> >down and found a failed breaker. I used the spare, and they ordered a
>> >replacement. Simple, and cheap insurance.
>>
>> Yawn.
>
>
> Of course you yawn. That's a requirement of the initial specs for
>public buildings, everywhere that I've lived & worked.

What *YOU* did *100 YEARS* ago is irrelevant.

[Tom Biasi]

Some people also pull THHN or CAT5 off the box spool the same way, also
makes a mess.
It takes more time but if you spiral (cable) your bundle the pull cord
will not get mixed. Never has for me.

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 07:38:52 -0800 (PST), the renowned
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com wrote:


>http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100660155/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=cable+lubricant&storeId=10051#.UOGuUuSrvRg

I've seen that stuff, never used it so far.

>and for the really tough stuff you can rent something like this:
>http://www.greenlee.com/products/PULLER-ASSEMBLY.html
>

That looks effective.

[John Larkin]

Why not put the compressor where the power is, and run an air hose?
Then we could argue about ths size of the hose.




--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom laser drivers and controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME thermocouple, LVDT, synchro acquisition and simulation

[k...@attt.bizz]

Actually, that's what I plan to do. Put the compressor in the garage
and pipe the air downstairs. 4" oughtta do it. ;-)

I just have to figure out how much work it's going to be (how things
line up).

[Michael A. Terrell]

John Larkin wrote:
>
> Why not put the compressor where the power is, and run an air hose?
> Then we could argue about ths size of the hose.

Hose? What's wrong with iron pipe? Good old fashioned black iron
pipe. That has been beat to death on news:rec.crafts.metalworking

[Michael A. Terrell]

k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>
> So why not 500KV? You never know?

I know that you're a fool.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Tom Biasi wrote:
>
> Some people also pull THHN or CAT5 off the box spool the same way, also
> makes a mess.
> It takes more time but if you spiral (cable) your bundle the pull cord
> will not get mixed. Never has for me.

Where is it in the NEC that you can 'spiral the wires'? They don't
even allow you to tape them

[Michael A. Terrell]

k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>
> It doesn't matter what *YOU* have on hand. #12 works just fine and is
> about 1/3 the cost of #10.

Do they use lube on you when you buy 10 AWG? It has 50% more copper
per foot. If you pay 200% more per foot, you've been raped. Do whatever
the hell you like, no one else cares.

[k...@attt.bizz]

You're the one inventing "machine shops" out of thin air. Go figure.

[Tom Biasi]

Where does it say I can't twist them as I feed them?

[k...@attt.bizz]

#12 is normal stuff, sold by the pallet at HD. #10 is "special" and
quite expensive because of it. Anything outside the norm has a
premium attached to it. For example, 12-3 has only 33% more copper
than 12-2 but costs almost double ($120 vs. $70 per 250' roll). And,
10-2 is $135 per roll, so yes, *DOUBLE*.

When *was* the last time you bought this stuff? You really need to
get out more and bitch less.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Who shops at a big box store when there are electrical distributors
all over the place?

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 19:27:16 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

When cornered, change the subject. Figures.

[DraconisExtinctor]

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 13:50:29 -0800, John Larkin

Pressure would remain constant. Flow *can be* constricted over that
distance.

Think hysteresis. Pressure does have a slight drop as one "loads" the
available flow (stored energy). Once you cross that threshold and the
flow rate becomes the bottleneck, pressure can drop on a continuous duty
"draw".

Just run plastic pipe. They even have tool-free fittings for pneumatic
service.

[DraconisExtinctor]

Pretty expensive at the per foot level compared to modern plastic
solutions.

And hose would work too.