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Fast but small optocouplers?
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Joerg
Sep 1, 2012, 11:08:58 AM9/1/12
to
Hello Folks,
So far I've never had size constraints and my staples were logic devices
such as the HCNW137 series. Now I need one that ideally doesn't require
a logic supply on the output, rise/fall times well under 1usec even when
not fed more than 1mA into the LED, as small as possible. No more than
about 0.150" wide and 0.250" long. Isolation around 2kV RMS is fine.
This would be at the size pain threshold but as usual is way too slow:
http://www.avagotech.com/docs/AV02-0774EN
I went through scores of them and all in the several usec. Any
sub-microsecond ones?
Unfortunately the bases aren't pipe out on these so not speed tricks :-(
What I want to do is ferry a fast PWM across a barrier, 100kHz range,
needs to be somewhat accurate. I could do the transformer plus NRZ thing
but that gets old and not enough space.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
So far I've never had size constraints and my staples were logic devices
such as the HCNW137 series. Now I need one that ideally doesn't require
a logic supply on the output, rise/fall times well under 1usec even when
not fed more than 1mA into the LED, as small as possible. No more than
about 0.150" wide and 0.250" long. Isolation around 2kV RMS is fine.
This would be at the size pain threshold but as usual is way too slow:
http://www.avagotech.com/docs/AV02-0774EN
I went through scores of them and all in the several usec. Any
sub-microsecond ones?
Unfortunately the bases aren't pipe out on these so not speed tricks :-(
What I want to do is ferry a fast PWM across a barrier, 100kHz range,
needs to be somewhat accurate. I could do the transformer plus NRZ thing
but that gets old and not enough space.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Phil Hobbs
Sep 1, 2012, 11:21:38 AM9/1/12
to
optocoupler can be a good deal faster, but you need an amplifier on the
isolated side. Even a homemade phototransistor might work--you could
use a quick transistor with a Baker clamp, for instance.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058
hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
John Larkin
Sep 1, 2012, 12:23:12 PM9/1/12
to
On Sat, 01 Sep 2012 08:08:58 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
You could consider my almost-famous totem-pole optocoupler thing
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/Circuits/Optos/Faster_Opto_Totem.JPG
(this one modified for speed and low power consumption)
Transformer plus DC restore wouldn't be bad, if you can keep the max
duty cycle a bit below 100%.
It's going to be tough in the area you're budgeting. What's the load?
--
John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com
Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom timing and laser controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
wrote:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/Circuits/Optos/Faster_Opto_Totem.JPG
(this one modified for speed and low power consumption)
Transformer plus DC restore wouldn't be bad, if you can keep the max
duty cycle a bit below 100%.
It's going to be tough in the area you're budgeting. What's the load?
--
John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com
Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom timing and laser controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Jim Thompson
Sep 1, 2012, 12:49:03 PM9/1/12
to
On Sat, 01 Sep 2012 09:23:12 -0700, John Larkin
<jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 01 Sep 2012 08:08:58 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>Hello Folks,
>>
>>So far I've never had size constraints and my staples were logic devices
>>such as the HCNW137 series. Now I need one that ideally doesn't require
>>a logic supply on the output, rise/fall times well under 1usec even when
>>not fed more than 1mA into the LED, as small as possible. No more than
>>about 0.150" wide and 0.250" long. Isolation around 2kV RMS is fine.
>>
>>This would be at the size pain threshold but as usual is way too slow:
>>
>>http://www.avagotech.com/docs/AV02-0774EN
>>
>>I went through scores of them and all in the several usec. Any
>>sub-microsecond ones?
>>
>>Unfortunately the bases aren't pipe out on these so not speed tricks :-(
>>
>>What I want to do is ferry a fast PWM across a barrier, 100kHz range,
>>needs to be somewhat accurate. I could do the transformer plus NRZ thing
>>but that gets old and not enough space.
>
>You could consider my almost-famous totem-pole optocoupler thing
"almost-famous"? Bwahahahahaha! Almost-infamous is more like it.
<jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 01 Sep 2012 08:08:58 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>Hello Folks,
>>
>>So far I've never had size constraints and my staples were logic devices
>>such as the HCNW137 series. Now I need one that ideally doesn't require
>>a logic supply on the output, rise/fall times well under 1usec even when
>>not fed more than 1mA into the LED, as small as possible. No more than
>>about 0.150" wide and 0.250" long. Isolation around 2kV RMS is fine.
>>
>>This would be at the size pain threshold but as usual is way too slow:
>>
>>http://www.avagotech.com/docs/AV02-0774EN
>>
>>I went through scores of them and all in the several usec. Any
>>sub-microsecond ones?
>>
>>Unfortunately the bases aren't pipe out on these so not speed tricks :-(
>>
>>What I want to do is ferry a fast PWM across a barrier, 100kHz range,
>>needs to be somewhat accurate. I could do the transformer plus NRZ thing
>>but that gets old and not enough space.
>
>You could consider my almost-famous totem-pole optocoupler thing
>
>https://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/Circuits/Optos/Faster_Opto_Totem.JPG
>
>(this one modified for speed and low power consumption)
Miller feedback and kills the speed... unless you use outrageous peak
currents.
(Tested and verified.)
[snip]
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Joerg
Sep 1, 2012, 1:15:56 PM9/1/12
to
Phil Hobbs wrote:
> Joerg wrote:
>> Hello Folks,
>>
>> So far I've never had size constraints and my staples were logic devices
>> such as the HCNW137 series. Now I need one that ideally doesn't require
>> a logic supply on the output, rise/fall times well under 1usec even when
>> not fed more than 1mA into the LED, as small as possible. No more than
>> about 0.150" wide and 0.250" long. Isolation around 2kV RMS is fine.
>>
>> This would be at the size pain threshold but as usual is way too slow:
>>
>> http://www.avagotech.com/docs/AV02-0774EN
>>
>> I went through scores of them and all in the several usec. Any
>> sub-microsecond ones?
>>
>> Unfortunately the bases aren't pipe out on these so not speed tricks :-(
>>
>> What I want to do is ferry a fast PWM across a barrier, 100kHz range,
>> needs to be somewhat accurate. I could do the transformer plus NRZ thing
>> but that gets old and not enough space.
>>
>> --
>> Regards, Joerg
>>
>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>
> Phototransistors are horrible, as I find I've said before. A photodiode
> optocoupler can be a good deal faster, but you need an amplifier on the
> isolated side. Even a homemade phototransistor might work--you could
> use a quick transistor with a Baker clamp, for instance.
>
The Baker clamp is nice but all the tiny ones I found had only four
> Joerg wrote:
>> Hello Folks,
>>
>> So far I've never had size constraints and my staples were logic devices
>> such as the HCNW137 series. Now I need one that ideally doesn't require
>> a logic supply on the output, rise/fall times well under 1usec even when
>> not fed more than 1mA into the LED, as small as possible. No more than
>> about 0.150" wide and 0.250" long. Isolation around 2kV RMS is fine.
>>
>> This would be at the size pain threshold but as usual is way too slow:
>>
>> http://www.avagotech.com/docs/AV02-0774EN
>>
>> I went through scores of them and all in the several usec. Any
>> sub-microsecond ones?
>>
>> Unfortunately the bases aren't pipe out on these so not speed tricks :-(
>>
>> What I want to do is ferry a fast PWM across a barrier, 100kHz range,
>> needs to be somewhat accurate. I could do the transformer plus NRZ thing
>> but that gets old and not enough space.
>>
>> --
>> Regards, Joerg
>>
>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>
> Phototransistors are horrible, as I find I've said before. A photodiode
> optocoupler can be a good deal faster, but you need an amplifier on the
> isolated side. Even a homemade phototransistor might work--you could
> use a quick transistor with a Baker clamp, for instance.
>
pins, so no access to the base :-(
John Larkin
Sep 1, 2012, 1:21:46 PM9/1/12
to
or s.e.w.?
And I put a cap there so that there would be suitably outrageous peak
currents but low average current.
Contribute something substantive instead of clucking.
Phil Hobbs
Sep 1, 2012, 1:26:51 PM9/1/12
to
one. With phototransistors, your're doomed.
Joerg
Sep 1, 2012, 1:26:52 PM9/1/12
to
John Larkin wrote:
> On Sat, 01 Sep 2012 08:08:58 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Folks,
>>
>> So far I've never had size constraints and my staples were logic devices
>> such as the HCNW137 series. Now I need one that ideally doesn't require
>> a logic supply on the output, rise/fall times well under 1usec even when
>> not fed more than 1mA into the LED, as small as possible. No more than
>> about 0.150" wide and 0.250" long. Isolation around 2kV RMS is fine.
>>
>> This would be at the size pain threshold but as usual is way too slow:
>>
>> http://www.avagotech.com/docs/AV02-0774EN
>>
>> I went through scores of them and all in the several usec. Any
>> sub-microsecond ones?
>>
>> Unfortunately the bases aren't pipe out on these so not speed tricks :-(
>>
>> What I want to do is ferry a fast PWM across a barrier, 100kHz range,
>> needs to be somewhat accurate. I could do the transformer plus NRZ thing
>> but that gets old and not enough space.
>
> You could consider my almost-famous totem-pole optocoupler thing
>
> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/Circuits/Optos/Faster_Opto_Totem.JPG
>
> (this one modified for speed and low power consumption)
>
Well, I don't really want to build my own optocoupler :-)
> On Sat, 01 Sep 2012 08:08:58 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Folks,
>>
>> So far I've never had size constraints and my staples were logic devices
>> such as the HCNW137 series. Now I need one that ideally doesn't require
>> a logic supply on the output, rise/fall times well under 1usec even when
>> not fed more than 1mA into the LED, as small as possible. No more than
>> about 0.150" wide and 0.250" long. Isolation around 2kV RMS is fine.
>>
>> This would be at the size pain threshold but as usual is way too slow:
>>
>> http://www.avagotech.com/docs/AV02-0774EN
>>
>> I went through scores of them and all in the several usec. Any
>> sub-microsecond ones?
>>
>> Unfortunately the bases aren't pipe out on these so not speed tricks :-(
>>
>> What I want to do is ferry a fast PWM across a barrier, 100kHz range,
>> needs to be somewhat accurate. I could do the transformer plus NRZ thing
>> but that gets old and not enough space.
>
> You could consider my almost-famous totem-pole optocoupler thing
>
> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/Circuits/Optos/Faster_Opto_Totem.JPG
>
> (this one modified for speed and low power consumption)
>
>
> Transformer plus DC restore wouldn't be bad, if you can keep the max
> duty cycle a bit below 100%.
>
But even really little transformers are big when they come with
isolation ratings. Plus I'd need more stuff to restore a clean DC, just
a rectifier wouldn't be accurate enough. We are really space-constrained
on this one.
> It's going to be tough in the area you're budgeting. What's the load?
>
into those, between zero and about a volt, and it has to cross the
barrier. I could also use a DAC but that's another part. Cost is not so
important but real estate is.
The signal itself is steady for a millisecond at a time but the change
to another value must happen in tens of usec, that's why the PWM has to
run fast. I can goose it a bit though, by having the controller step to
full scale or zero for a while. But then the firmware guys will throw
things at me because I'll keep piling on the work for them. This whole
PWM is already a "By the way, we'd also need ..." job for them.
hamilton
Sep 1, 2012, 1:29:12 PM9/1/12
to
On 9/1/2012 11:15 AM, Joerg wrote:
Googleing found this:
http://www.vishay.com/docs/83674/sfh619a.pdf
SWITCHING CHARACTERISTICS
PARAMETER TEST CONDITION SYMBOL MIN. TYP. MAX. UNIT
Rise time
VCC = 10 V, IC = 10 mA, RL = 100 Ω tr 3.5 μs
VCC = 10 V, IF = 16 mA, RL = 180 Ω tr 1 μs
Fall time
VCC = 10 V, IC = 10 mA, RL = 100 Ω tf 14.5 μs
VCC = 10 V, IF = 16 mA, RL = 180 Ω tf 20.5 μs
Turn-on time
VCC = 10 V, IC = 10 mA, RL = 100 Ω ton 4.5 μs
VCC = 10 V, IF = 16 mA, RL = 180 Ω ton 1.5 μs
Turn-off time
VCC = 10 V, IC = 10 mA, RL = 100 Ω toff 29 μs
VCC = 10 V, IF = 16 mA, RL = 180 Ω toff 53.5 μs
Googleing found this:
http://www.vishay.com/docs/83674/sfh619a.pdf
SWITCHING CHARACTERISTICS
PARAMETER TEST CONDITION SYMBOL MIN. TYP. MAX. UNIT
Rise time
VCC = 10 V, IC = 10 mA, RL = 100 Ω tr 3.5 μs
VCC = 10 V, IF = 16 mA, RL = 180 Ω tr 1 μs
Fall time
VCC = 10 V, IC = 10 mA, RL = 100 Ω tf 14.5 μs
VCC = 10 V, IF = 16 mA, RL = 180 Ω tf 20.5 μs
Turn-on time
VCC = 10 V, IC = 10 mA, RL = 100 Ω ton 4.5 μs
VCC = 10 V, IF = 16 mA, RL = 180 Ω ton 1.5 μs
Turn-off time
VCC = 10 V, IC = 10 mA, RL = 100 Ω toff 29 μs
VCC = 10 V, IF = 16 mA, RL = 180 Ω toff 53.5 μs
hamilton
Sep 1, 2012, 1:30:47 PM9/1/12
to
Jamie
Sep 1, 2012, 1:55:50 PM9/1/12
to
implement if you're trying for a clean switch.
The last one I did use high speed S diodes with low cap and a
-0.5 supply for the emitter to get it down close to 0 volts and the
use of RC lead and lags to remove parasitic on the corners.
Jamie
Jim Thompson
Sep 1, 2012, 1:44:15 PM9/1/12
to
On Sat, 01 Sep 2012 10:21:46 -0700, John Larkin
Can you cite where a part will survive your "outrageous peak"?
>
>Contribute something substantive instead of clucking.
I did, I said your concept has problems. It does, but you will never
admit. Show us, with a suitable opto part number, that it meets
Joerg's edge speed requirement... and survives.
And stop with the "clucking"... you're exposing yourself as a mental
midget with limited vocabulary ;-)
>
>Contribute something substantive instead of clucking.
admit. Show us, with a suitable opto part number, that it meets
Joerg's edge speed requirement... and survives.
And stop with the "clucking"... you're exposing yourself as a mental
midget with limited vocabulary ;-)
Joerg
Sep 1, 2012, 1:45:05 PM9/1/12
to
the receiving end to turn the PWM into clean DC. No available space.
Jim Thompson
Sep 1, 2012, 1:46:21 PM9/1/12
to
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs
Joerg
Sep 1, 2012, 1:46:39 PM9/1/12
to
RL of 180ohms and IF 16mA is pretty unrealistic in real life, that
sounds like written by marketing EEs. Plus it's still too slow.
John Larkin
Sep 1, 2012, 1:47:24 PM9/1/12
to
On Sat, 01 Sep 2012 10:26:52 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
>John Larkin wrote:
>> On Sat, 01 Sep 2012 08:08:58 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Folks,
>>>
>>> So far I've never had size constraints and my staples were logic devices
>>> such as the HCNW137 series. Now I need one that ideally doesn't require
>>> a logic supply on the output, rise/fall times well under 1usec even when
>>> not fed more than 1mA into the LED, as small as possible. No more than
>>> about 0.150" wide and 0.250" long. Isolation around 2kV RMS is fine.
>>>
>>> This would be at the size pain threshold but as usual is way too slow:
>>>
>>> http://www.avagotech.com/docs/AV02-0774EN
>>>
>>> I went through scores of them and all in the several usec. Any
>>> sub-microsecond ones?
>>>
>>> Unfortunately the bases aren't pipe out on these so not speed tricks :-(
>>>
>>> What I want to do is ferry a fast PWM across a barrier, 100kHz range,
>>> needs to be somewhat accurate. I could do the transformer plus NRZ thing
>>> but that gets old and not enough space.
>>
>> You could consider my almost-famous totem-pole optocoupler thing
>>
>> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/Circuits/Optos/Faster_Opto_Totem.JPG
>>
>> (this one modified for speed and low power consumption)
>>
>
>Well, I don't really want to build my own optocoupler :-)
I had in mind using ordinary couplers here. Given no base resistors
allowed, this circuit at least switches one opto on hard against the
other one running at low current. Might make 1 us edges.
>
>>
>> Transformer plus DC restore wouldn't be bad, if you can keep the max
>> duty cycle a bit below 100%.
>>
>
>I can, and thought about that because I've used this on medical gear.
>But even really little transformers are big when they come with
>isolation ratings. Plus I'd need more stuff to restore a clean DC, just
>a rectifier wouldn't be accurate enough. We are really space-constrained
>on this one.
>
>
>> It's going to be tough in the area you're budgeting. What's the load?
>>
>
>It's essentially hi-Z inputs (<100nA bias). I have to feed a voltage
>into those, between zero and about a volt, and it has to cross the
>barrier. I could also use a DAC but that's another part. Cost is not so
>important but real estate is.
>
>The signal itself is steady for a millisecond at a time but the change
>to another value must happen in tens of usec, that's why the PWM has to
>run fast. I can goose it a bit though, by having the controller step to
>full scale or zero for a while. But then the firmware guys will throw
>things at me because I'll keep piling on the work for them. This whole
>PWM is already a "By the way, we'd also need ..." job for them.
Nasty problem. You'll need a higher-order filter to get that sort of
step response, and 100KHz PWM likely isn't fast enough. I glad it's
not my problem; I've got enough impossible things going on as-is.
One way to do fast PWM is to have the two optos (or transformers)
drive a cmos flipflop, so the data is edge-sensitive, not level
sensitive.
Don't give in to the coders!
Put parts on both sides of the board!
Demand more board area!
wrote:
>John Larkin wrote:
>> On Sat, 01 Sep 2012 08:08:58 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Folks,
>>>
>>> So far I've never had size constraints and my staples were logic devices
>>> such as the HCNW137 series. Now I need one that ideally doesn't require
>>> a logic supply on the output, rise/fall times well under 1usec even when
>>> not fed more than 1mA into the LED, as small as possible. No more than
>>> about 0.150" wide and 0.250" long. Isolation around 2kV RMS is fine.
>>>
>>> This would be at the size pain threshold but as usual is way too slow:
>>>
>>> http://www.avagotech.com/docs/AV02-0774EN
>>>
>>> I went through scores of them and all in the several usec. Any
>>> sub-microsecond ones?
>>>
>>> Unfortunately the bases aren't pipe out on these so not speed tricks :-(
>>>
>>> What I want to do is ferry a fast PWM across a barrier, 100kHz range,
>>> needs to be somewhat accurate. I could do the transformer plus NRZ thing
>>> but that gets old and not enough space.
>>
>> You could consider my almost-famous totem-pole optocoupler thing
>>
>> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/Circuits/Optos/Faster_Opto_Totem.JPG
>>
>> (this one modified for speed and low power consumption)
>>
>
>Well, I don't really want to build my own optocoupler :-)
allowed, this circuit at least switches one opto on hard against the
other one running at low current. Might make 1 us edges.
>
>>
>> Transformer plus DC restore wouldn't be bad, if you can keep the max
>> duty cycle a bit below 100%.
>>
>
>I can, and thought about that because I've used this on medical gear.
>But even really little transformers are big when they come with
>isolation ratings. Plus I'd need more stuff to restore a clean DC, just
>a rectifier wouldn't be accurate enough. We are really space-constrained
>on this one.
>
>
>> It's going to be tough in the area you're budgeting. What's the load?
>>
>
>It's essentially hi-Z inputs (<100nA bias). I have to feed a voltage
>into those, between zero and about a volt, and it has to cross the
>barrier. I could also use a DAC but that's another part. Cost is not so
>important but real estate is.
>
>The signal itself is steady for a millisecond at a time but the change
>to another value must happen in tens of usec, that's why the PWM has to
>run fast. I can goose it a bit though, by having the controller step to
>full scale or zero for a while. But then the firmware guys will throw
>things at me because I'll keep piling on the work for them. This whole
>PWM is already a "By the way, we'd also need ..." job for them.
step response, and 100KHz PWM likely isn't fast enough. I glad it's
not my problem; I've got enough impossible things going on as-is.
One way to do fast PWM is to have the two optos (or transformers)
drive a cmos flipflop, so the data is edge-sensitive, not level
sensitive.
Don't give in to the coders!
Put parts on both sides of the board!
Demand more board area!
Jan Panteltje
Sep 1, 2012, 2:20:57 PM9/1/12
to
On a sunny day (Sat, 01 Sep 2012 10:45:05 -0700) it happened Joerg
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <aaevt3...@mid.individual.net>:
>With photodiode ones I am doomed as well, then I need too many parts on
>the receiving end to turn the PWM into clean DC. No available space.
Use small transformer, send impulse only,
use oneshot with fixed pulse and lowpass to make DC again at rx end.
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <aaevt3...@mid.individual.net>:
>With photodiode ones I am doomed as well, then I need too many parts on
>the receiving end to turn the PWM into clean DC. No available space.
use oneshot with fixed pulse and lowpass to make DC again at rx end.
Joerg
Sep 1, 2012, 2:24:49 PM9/1/12
to
unfortunately transformers with isolation ratings are large.
Joerg
Sep 1, 2012, 2:31:10 PM9/1/12
to
1usec.
>
>>> Transformer plus DC restore wouldn't be bad, if you can keep the max
>>> duty cycle a bit below 100%.
>>>
>> I can, and thought about that because I've used this on medical gear.
>> But even really little transformers are big when they come with
>> isolation ratings. Plus I'd need more stuff to restore a clean DC, just
>> a rectifier wouldn't be accurate enough. We are really space-constrained
>> on this one.
>>
>>
>>> It's going to be tough in the area you're budgeting. What's the load?
>>>
>> It's essentially hi-Z inputs (<100nA bias). I have to feed a voltage
>> into those, between zero and about a volt, and it has to cross the
>> barrier. I could also use a DAC but that's another part. Cost is not so
>> important but real estate is.
>>
>> The signal itself is steady for a millisecond at a time but the change
>> to another value must happen in tens of usec, that's why the PWM has to
>> run fast. I can goose it a bit though, by having the controller step to
>> full scale or zero for a while. But then the firmware guys will throw
>> things at me because I'll keep piling on the work for them. This whole
>> PWM is already a "By the way, we'd also need ..." job for them.
>
>
> Nasty problem. You'll need a higher-order filter to get that sort of
> step response, and 100KHz PWM likely isn't fast enough. I glad it's
> not my problem; I've got enough impossible things going on as-is.
>
automatic transmission cars.
> One way to do fast PWM is to have the two optos (or transformers)
> drive a cmos flipflop, so the data is edge-sensitive, not level
> sensitive.
>
> Don't give in to the coders!
>
> Put parts on both sides of the board!
>
has 24 hours, and if that ain't enough you've still got the night!"
> Demand more board area!
>
They have to be retrofitted into a given space, no luck there.
Jan Panteltje
Sep 1, 2012, 2:32:36 PM9/1/12
to
On a sunny day (Sat, 01 Sep 2012 11:24:49 -0700) it happened Joerg
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <aaf27k...@mid.individual.net>:
The sort of transformer I would use would be just 1 turn insulated wire
to ???spec in a ferrite bead.
Whats you insulation voltage spcec?
I mean in that case it is specced for the wire insulation.
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <aaf27k...@mid.individual.net>:
to ???spec in a ferrite bead.
Whats you insulation voltage spcec?
I mean in that case it is specced for the wire insulation.
Joerg
Sep 1, 2012, 2:52:36 PM9/1/12
to
Martin Riddle
Sep 1, 2012, 2:54:57 PM9/1/12
to
"Joerg" <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:aaf3rm...@mid.individual.net...
Cheers
Joerg
Sep 1, 2012, 2:57:06 PM9/1/12
to
Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Sat, 01 Sep 2012 11:24:49 -0700) it happened Joerg
> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <aaf27k...@mid.individual.net>:
>
>> Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> On a sunny day (Sat, 01 Sep 2012 10:45:05 -0700) it happened Joerg
>>> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <aaevt3...@mid.individual.net>:
>>>
>>>
>>>> With photodiode ones I am doomed as well, then I need too many parts on
>>>> the receiving end to turn the PWM into clean DC. No available space.
>>> Use small transformer, send impulse only,
>>> use oneshot with fixed pulse and lowpass to make DC again at rx end.
>>>
>> No need for a one-shot, a comparator will do (NRZ scheme). But
>> unfortunately transformers with isolation ratings are large.
>
> The sort of transformer I would use would be just 1 turn insulated wire
> to ???spec in a ferrite bead.
> Whats you insulation voltage spcec?
> I mean in that case it is specced for the wire insulation.
>
The usual 2kV RMS. It's not that I can't make a small one, done it many
> On a sunny day (Sat, 01 Sep 2012 11:24:49 -0700) it happened Joerg
> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <aaf27k...@mid.individual.net>:
>
>> Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> On a sunny day (Sat, 01 Sep 2012 10:45:05 -0700) it happened Joerg
>>> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <aaevt3...@mid.individual.net>:
>>>
>>>
>>>> With photodiode ones I am doomed as well, then I need too many parts on
>>>> the receiving end to turn the PWM into clean DC. No available space.
>>> Use small transformer, send impulse only,
>>> use oneshot with fixed pulse and lowpass to make DC again at rx end.
>>>
>> No need for a one-shot, a comparator will do (NRZ scheme). But
>> unfortunately transformers with isolation ratings are large.
>
> The sort of transformer I would use would be just 1 turn insulated wire
> to ???spec in a ferrite bead.
> Whats you insulation voltage spcec?
> I mean in that case it is specced for the wire insulation.
>
times. The issue is that on most such projects it has to come with "the
papers".
Meantime I've found this from Sharp, requires a voltage and no
uncommitted emitter but might do the trick here:
http://www.sharpsma.com/webfm_send/1118
John Larkin
Sep 1, 2012, 3:02:03 PM9/1/12
to
On Sat, 01 Sep 2012 11:24:49 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
I've done this sort of thing before. On a hi-mu toroid or bead, you
can use fat-insulated wire, far apart. Maybe 1:1, or maybe 2t primary,
1t secondary?
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/Circuits/Optos/XFMR_Isolator.JPG
wrote:
can use fat-insulated wire, far apart. Maybe 1:1, or maybe 2t primary,
1t secondary?
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/Circuits/Optos/XFMR_Isolator.JPG
John Larkin
Sep 1, 2012, 3:04:11 PM9/1/12
to
On Sat, 01 Sep 2012 11:31:10 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
Your coders have a life? Well, there's your problem.
Jim Thompson
Sep 1, 2012, 3:07:35 PM9/1/12
to
On Sat, 01 Sep 2012 11:57:06 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
I vaguely recall someone had an LED and an optical receiver chip in a
single package... Avago maybe? I'll look thru my TAOS/Avago project
files and see if I can find a part number.
wrote:
single package... Avago maybe? I'll look thru my TAOS/Avago project
files and see if I can find a part number.
Jan Panteltje
Sep 1, 2012, 3:11:39 PM9/1/12
to
On a sunny day (Sat, 01 Sep 2012 11:57:06 -0700) it happened Joerg
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <aaf444...@mid.individual.net>:
Something wron g there,
rise and fall times worst case .8uS in 1.9 OHM????? typo?
Do not confuse wuth common mode rejection in 30kV /uS
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <aaf444...@mid.individual.net>:
rise and fall times worst case .8uS in 1.9 OHM????? typo?
Do not confuse wuth common mode rejection in 30kV /uS
Joerg
Sep 1, 2012, 3:16:22 PM9/1/12
to
should do the job. Best of all, it's only 80c a pop and half a bazillion
in stock which is always a good sign.
The PWM filter is done as well but the smallest 1mH inductor I can get
is still 0.100" by 0.100". Big. Strange, one problems solved and then
there's always the next one. Like that li'l yellow light on the dash of
my car. But luckily it was just an evap alert caused by a slightly loose
gas cap and I was able to reset it via OBD-II. The shop would surely
have charged $50 plus. The OBD-II interface that just arrived was $12
including shipping :-)
Joerg
Sep 1, 2012, 3:17:58 PM9/1/12
to
John Larkin wrote:
> On Sat, 01 Sep 2012 11:31:10 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> John Larkin wrote:
[...]
> On Sat, 01 Sep 2012 11:31:10 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> John Larkin wrote:
>>> One way to do fast PWM is to have the two optos (or transformers)
>>> drive a cmos flipflop, so the data is edge-sensitive, not level
>>> sensitive.
>>>
>>> Don't give in to the coders!
>>>
>> But they also need to have a life :-)
>
> Your coders have a life? Well, there's your problem.
>
The one a couple miles from here has a horse ranch.
Joerg
Sep 1, 2012, 3:20:06 PM9/1/12
to
John Larkin wrote:
> On Sat, 01 Sep 2012 11:24:49 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> On a sunny day (Sat, 01 Sep 2012 10:45:05 -0700) it happened Joerg
>>> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <aaevt3...@mid.individual.net>:
>>>
>>>
>>>> With photodiode ones I am doomed as well, then I need too many parts on
>>>> the receiving end to turn the PWM into clean DC. No available space.
>>> Use small transformer, send impulse only,
>>> use oneshot with fixed pulse and lowpass to make DC again at rx end.
>>>
>> No need for a one-shot, a comparator will do (NRZ scheme). But
>> unfortunately transformers with isolation ratings are large.
>
>
> I've done this sort of thing before. On a hi-mu toroid or bead, you
> can use fat-insulated wire, far apart. Maybe 1:1, or maybe 2t primary,
> 1t secondary?
>
> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/Circuits/Optos/XFMR_Isolator.JPG
>
I've done that as well when there was no other way. NRZ on the other
> On Sat, 01 Sep 2012 11:24:49 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> On a sunny day (Sat, 01 Sep 2012 10:45:05 -0700) it happened Joerg
>>> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <aaevt3...@mid.individual.net>:
>>>
>>>
>>>> With photodiode ones I am doomed as well, then I need too many parts on
>>>> the receiving end to turn the PWM into clean DC. No available space.
>>> Use small transformer, send impulse only,
>>> use oneshot with fixed pulse and lowpass to make DC again at rx end.
>>>
>> No need for a one-shot, a comparator will do (NRZ scheme). But
>> unfortunately transformers with isolation ratings are large.
>
>
> I've done this sort of thing before. On a hi-mu toroid or bead, you
> can use fat-insulated wire, far apart. Maybe 1:1, or maybe 2t primary,
> 1t secondary?
>
> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/Circuits/Optos/XFMR_Isolator.JPG
>
side, or DC clamper. But ... then you are on the hook to get it
certified and that's a ton of paperwork. BTDT, a lot.
Joerg
Sep 1, 2012, 3:20:59 PM9/1/12
to
Martin Riddle wrote:
> "Joerg" <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
[...]
> "Joerg" <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>> Well, there is hope:
>>
>> http://www.sharpsma.com/webfm_send/1118
>>
>> --
>> Regards, Joerg
>>
>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>
> Check NEC too, PS88xx PS8501
>
impressive when it comes to fast yet energy-efficient opto parts.
Syd Rumpo
Sep 1, 2012, 3:25:26 PM9/1/12
to
On 01/09/2012 16:08, Joerg wrote:
> Hello Folks,
>
> So far I've never had size constraints and my staples were logic devices
> such as the HCNW137 series. Now I need one that ideally doesn't require
> a logic supply on the output, rise/fall times well under 1usec even when
> not fed more than 1mA into the LED, as small as possible. No more than
> about 0.150" wide and 0.250" long. Isolation around 2kV RMS is fine.
>
> This would be at the size pain threshold but as usual is way too slow:
>
> http://www.avagotech.com/docs/AV02-0774EN
>
> I went through scores of them and all in the several usec. Any
> sub-microsecond ones?
>
> Unfortunately the bases aren't pipe out on these so not speed tricks :-(
>
> What I want to do is ferry a fast PWM across a barrier, 100kHz range,
> needs to be somewhat accurate. I could do the transformer plus NRZ thing
> but that gets old and not enough space.
>
Loads of different types, eg
> Hello Folks,
>
> So far I've never had size constraints and my staples were logic devices
> such as the HCNW137 series. Now I need one that ideally doesn't require
> a logic supply on the output, rise/fall times well under 1usec even when
> not fed more than 1mA into the LED, as small as possible. No more than
> about 0.150" wide and 0.250" long. Isolation around 2kV RMS is fine.
>
> This would be at the size pain threshold but as usual is way too slow:
>
> http://www.avagotech.com/docs/AV02-0774EN
>
> I went through scores of them and all in the several usec. Any
> sub-microsecond ones?
>
> Unfortunately the bases aren't pipe out on these so not speed tricks :-(
>
> What I want to do is ferry a fast PWM across a barrier, 100kHz range,
> needs to be somewhat accurate. I could do the transformer plus NRZ thing
> but that gets old and not enough space.
>
http://www.nve.com/webstore/catalog/default.php?cPath=30_25
But not opto...
--
Syd
Jim Thompson
Sep 1, 2012, 3:30:31 PM9/1/12
to
Joerg
Sep 1, 2012, 3:33:05 PM9/1/12
to
Joerg
Sep 1, 2012, 3:35:06 PM9/1/12
to
signal at all with 1.9ohms.
> Do not confuse wuth common mode rejection in 30kV /uS
>
Joerg
Sep 1, 2012, 3:41:05 PM9/1/12
to
However, one has to be careful. Several clients have been burned by
fancy new-tech isolator chips (not from NVE though). In all cases the
comeuppance happened at the EMC test facility.
John Larkin
Sep 1, 2012, 3:54:34 PM9/1/12
to
On Sat, 01 Sep 2012 12:16:22 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
I you are willing to power the receive side, just buy a logic
optocoupler with CMOS output. There are tons of them, some very fast.
wrote:
optocoupler with CMOS output. There are tons of them, some very fast.
John Larkin
Sep 1, 2012, 4:00:30 PM9/1/12
to
On Sat, 01 Sep 2012 12:41:05 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
Well, I've seen them simply get into the wrong state. Most have
incremental/edge coupling so can get confused.
wrote:
incremental/edge coupling so can get confused.
Jan Panteltje
Sep 1, 2012, 4:09:33 PM9/1/12
to
On a sunny day (Sat, 01 Sep 2012 12:35:06 -0700) it happened Joerg
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <aaf6bc...@mid.individual.net>:
bottom page 4
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <aaf6bc...@mid.individual.net>:
Joerg
Sep 1, 2012, 4:16:39 PM9/1/12
to
much power. A milliamp or two. So that'll add more parts.
Joerg
Sep 1, 2012, 4:17:54 PM9/1/12
to
Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Sat, 01 Sep 2012 12:35:06 -0700) it happened Joerg
> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <aaf6bc...@mid.individual.net>:
>
>> Jan Panteltje wrote:
[...]
> On a sunny day (Sat, 01 Sep 2012 12:35:06 -0700) it happened Joerg
> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <aaf6bc...@mid.individual.net>:
>
>> Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Do not confuse wuth common mode rejection in 30kV /uS
>>>
>> ??
>
> bottom page 4
Jan Panteltje
Sep 1, 2012, 4:26:33 PM9/1/12
to
On a sunny day (Sat, 01 Sep 2012 13:17:54 -0700) it happened Joerg
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <aaf8rl...@mid.individual.net>:
>Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> On a sunny day (Sat, 01 Sep 2012 12:35:06 -0700) it happened Joerg
>> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <aaf6bc...@mid.individual.net>:
>>
>>> Jan Panteltje wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Do not confuse wuth common mode rejection in 30kV /uS
>>>>
>>> ??
>>
>> bottom page 4
>
>
>That's CM rejection, not an important parameter here.
I knowm, but I thought you took it maybe for output rise time :-)
This thing really is not Ferry Vast, some years ago we discussed that issue here
and somebody came up with really fast ones, maybe google still has it.
<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <aaf8rl...@mid.individual.net>:
>Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> On a sunny day (Sat, 01 Sep 2012 12:35:06 -0700) it happened Joerg
>> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <aaf6bc...@mid.individual.net>:
>>
>>> Jan Panteltje wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Do not confuse wuth common mode rejection in 30kV /uS
>>>>
>>> ??
>>
>> bottom page 4
>
>
>That's CM rejection, not an important parameter here.
This thing really is not Ferry Vast, some years ago we discussed that issue here
and somebody came up with really fast ones, maybe google still has it.
Klaus Kragelund
Sep 1, 2012, 4:34:18 PM9/1/12
to ne...@analogconsultants.com
Cheers
Klaus
Joerg
Sep 1, 2012, 8:38:53 PM9/1/12
to
looks like the Sanyo couplers might do the job. If not then I guess
it'll have to be a transformer. Or maybe an ultrasound piezo transfer,
that would be really high tech :-)
Joerg
Sep 1, 2012, 8:39:37 PM9/1/12
to
Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Sat, 01 Sep 2012 13:17:54 -0700) it happened Joerg
> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <aaf8rl...@mid.individual.net>:
>
>> Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> On a sunny day (Sat, 01 Sep 2012 12:35:06 -0700) it happened Joerg
>>> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <aaf6bc...@mid.individual.net>:
>>>
>>>> Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>>>>
>>>>> Do not confuse wuth common mode rejection in 30kV /uS
>>>>>
>>>> ??
>>> bottom page 4
>>
>> That's CM rejection, not an important parameter here.
>
> I knowm, but I thought you took it maybe for output rise time :-)
> This thing really is not Ferry Vast, some years ago we discussed that issue here
> and somebody came up with really fast ones, maybe google still has it.
>
The Sanyo is fast enough, so most likely I'll use that one.
> On a sunny day (Sat, 01 Sep 2012 13:17:54 -0700) it happened Joerg
> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <aaf8rl...@mid.individual.net>:
>
>> Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> On a sunny day (Sat, 01 Sep 2012 12:35:06 -0700) it happened Joerg
>>> <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in <aaf6bc...@mid.individual.net>:
>>>
>>>> Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>>>>
>>>>> Do not confuse wuth common mode rejection in 30kV /uS
>>>>>
>>>> ??
>>> bottom page 4
>>
>> That's CM rejection, not an important parameter here.
>
> I knowm, but I thought you took it maybe for output rise time :-)
> This thing really is not Ferry Vast, some years ago we discussed that issue here
> and somebody came up with really fast ones, maybe google still has it.
>
Tim Williams
Sep 1, 2012, 9:51:36 PM9/1/12
to
"Joerg" <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:aaf444...@mid.individual.net...
> The usual 2kV RMS. It's not that I can't make a small one, done it many
> times. The issue is that on most such projects it has to come with "the
> papers".
>
> Meantime I've found this from Sharp, requires a voltage and no
> uncommitted emitter but might do the trick here:
>
> http://www.sharpsma.com/webfm_send/1118
Cute! It's a miniature SFH6345 (which is, in turn, a 6N136 without the
> times. The issue is that on most such projects it has to come with "the
> papers".
>
> Meantime I've found this from Sharp, requires a voltage and no
> uncommitted emitter but might do the trick here:
>
> http://www.sharpsma.com/webfm_send/1118
base pin...and its pesky capacitance). That'll come in handy for IGBT
drivers!
Hmm, offhand, Digikey and Mouser don't stock it.. will have to look
around.
Tim
--
Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk.
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms
spamtrap1888
Sep 1, 2012, 9:55:40 PM9/1/12
to
On Sep 1, 8:09 am, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Hello Folks,
>
> So far I've never had size constraints and my staples were logic devices
> such as the HCNW137 series. Now I need one that ideally doesn't require
> a logic supply on the output, rise/fall times well under 1usec even when
> not fed more than 1mA into the LED, as small as possible. No more than
> about 0.150" wide and 0.250" long. Isolation around 2kV RMS is fine.
>
> This would be at the size pain threshold but as usual is way too slow:
>
> http://www.avagotech.com/docs/AV02-0774EN
>
> I went through scores of them and all in the several usec. Any
> sub-microsecond ones?
>
> Unfortunately the bases aren't pipe out on these so not speed tricks :-(
>
> What I want to do is ferry a fast PWM across a barrier, 100kHz range,
> needs to be somewhat accurate. I could do the transformer plus NRZ thing
> but that gets old and not enough space.
>
Did you look at this one? They tout it as a pulse transformer
> Hello Folks,
>
> So far I've never had size constraints and my staples were logic devices
> such as the HCNW137 series. Now I need one that ideally doesn't require
> a logic supply on the output, rise/fall times well under 1usec even when
> not fed more than 1mA into the LED, as small as possible. No more than
> about 0.150" wide and 0.250" long. Isolation around 2kV RMS is fine.
>
> This would be at the size pain threshold but as usual is way too slow:
>
> http://www.avagotech.com/docs/AV02-0774EN
>
> I went through scores of them and all in the several usec. Any
> sub-microsecond ones?
>
> Unfortunately the bases aren't pipe out on these so not speed tricks :-(
>
> What I want to do is ferry a fast PWM across a barrier, 100kHz range,
> needs to be somewhat accurate. I could do the transformer plus NRZ thing
> but that gets old and not enough space.
>
replacement:
http://www.avagotech.com/docs/AV02-1302EN
John Larkin
Sep 1, 2012, 9:58:25 PM9/1/12
to
On Sat, 1 Sep 2012 20:51:36 -0500, "Tim Williams"
<tmor...@charter.net> wrote:
>"Joerg" <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>news:aaf444...@mid.individual.net...
>> The usual 2kV RMS. It's not that I can't make a small one, done it many
>> times. The issue is that on most such projects it has to come with "the
>> papers".
>>
>> Meantime I've found this from Sharp, requires a voltage and no
>> uncommitted emitter but might do the trick here:
>>
>> http://www.sharpsma.com/webfm_send/1118
>
>Cute! It's a miniature SFH6345 (which is, in turn, a 6N136 without the
>base pin...and its pesky capacitance). That'll come in handy for IGBT
>drivers!
>
>Hmm, offhand, Digikey and Mouser don't stock it.. will have to look
>around.
>
>Tim
Don't insult the base pin. A b-e resistor really speeds up an opto.
<tmor...@charter.net> wrote:
>"Joerg" <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>news:aaf444...@mid.individual.net...
>> The usual 2kV RMS. It's not that I can't make a small one, done it many
>> times. The issue is that on most such projects it has to come with "the
>> papers".
>>
>> Meantime I've found this from Sharp, requires a voltage and no
>> uncommitted emitter but might do the trick here:
>>
>> http://www.sharpsma.com/webfm_send/1118
>
>Cute! It's a miniature SFH6345 (which is, in turn, a 6N136 without the
>base pin...and its pesky capacitance). That'll come in handy for IGBT
>drivers!
>
>Hmm, offhand, Digikey and Mouser don't stock it.. will have to look
>around.
>
>Tim
Tim Williams
Sep 1, 2012, 10:01:34 PM9/1/12
to
"John Larkin" <jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in
message news:f8q4489b5psefon2a...@4ax.com...
that, if they flip, they flip back to the correct state within some period
of time.
We've used them (the ADI parts) with MOSFET drivers, where the dV/dt
pushes the datasheet limits. We haven't seen them chatter at all.
message news:f8q4489b5psefon2a...@4ax.com...
>>A bit much in quiescent current and very pricey but they sure are fast.
>>However, one has to be careful. Several clients have been burned by
>>fancy new-tech isolator chips (not from NVE though). In all cases the
>>comeuppance happened at the EMC test facility.
>
> Well, I've seen them simply get into the wrong state. Most have
> incremental/edge coupling so can get confused.
The ones from Analog brag about their active refresh, which makes sure
>>However, one has to be careful. Several clients have been burned by
>>fancy new-tech isolator chips (not from NVE though). In all cases the
>>comeuppance happened at the EMC test facility.
>
> Well, I've seen them simply get into the wrong state. Most have
> incremental/edge coupling so can get confused.
that, if they flip, they flip back to the correct state within some period
of time.
We've used them (the ADI parts) with MOSFET drivers, where the dV/dt
pushes the datasheet limits. We haven't seen them chatter at all.
Tim Williams
Sep 1, 2012, 10:21:37 PM9/1/12
to
"John Larkin" <jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in
message news:58f548lebgs97t4s1...@4ax.com...
>>Cute! It's a miniature SFH6345 (which is, in turn, a 6N136 without the
>>base pin...and its pesky capacitance).
>
>>base pin...and its pesky capacitance).
>
> Don't insult the base pin. A b-e resistor really speeds up an opto.
I have full right to insult anything that breaks!
Resistors aren't necessary with these types, and taking it out to a pin is
far more detrimental in typical applications: big edges really screw them
up.
Note carefully, for example, how Fairchild rates the dV/dt of their 6N136.
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/6N/6N135.pdf
The dV/dt could be 1 or 100kV/us and it won't matter, the charge injection
isn't even enough to turn on the transistor at a mere 10Vpp. Terrible
liars. Other manufacturers rate theirs at only 1kV/us, though still a 10V
edge. Compare that to the SFH6345, which is rated over 10kV/us (by any
manufacturer), and tested with a 1kVpp edge (Avago tests theirs at
1.5kVpp!).
As for empirical results, a 6N136 will do this in a gate driver:
http://t3sl4.dnsdynamic.net/Images/Induction902.jpg
The full waveform is,
http://t3sl4.dnsdynamic.net/Images/Induction901.jpg
which as you can see isn't very much delta V or delta T as gate drivers
go. A little shielding wrapped around the 6N136 got it working up to
320V, but I still don't trust it. And the shield reduces the peak voltage
rating in a non-approved manner.
Tim
P.S. Mmmm, Sprecher Abbey Triple. Geez, some fruit flies got in through
the window, they're curious about it. Heck, I would be too. Now where's
the fly swatter...
Tim Williams
Sep 1, 2012, 10:21:37 PM9/1/12
to
"John Larkin" <jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in
message news:58f548lebgs97t4s1...@4ax.com...
message news:58f548lebgs97t4s1...@4ax.com...
>>Cute! It's a miniature SFH6345 (which is, in turn, a 6N136 without the
>>base pin...and its pesky capacitance).
>
>>base pin...and its pesky capacitance).
>
> Don't insult the base pin. A b-e resistor really speeds up an opto.
I have full right to insult anything that breaks!
Resistors aren't necessary with these types, and taking it out to a pin is
far more detrimental in typical applications: big edges really screw them
up.
Note carefully, for example, how Fairchild rates the dV/dt of their 6N136.
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/6N/6N135.pdf
The dV/dt could be 1 or 100kV/us and it won't matter, the charge injection
isn't even enough to turn on the transistor at a mere 10Vpp. Terrible
liars. Other manufacturers rate theirs at only 1kV/us, though still a 10V
edge. Compare that to the SFH6345, which is rated over 10kV/us (by any
manufacturer), and tested with a 1kVpp edge (Avago tests theirs at
1.5kVpp!).
As for empirical results, a 6N136 will do this in a gate driver:
http://t3sl4.dnsdynamic.net/Images/Induction902.jpg
The full waveform is,
http://t3sl4.dnsdynamic.net/Images/Induction901.jpg
which as you can see isn't very much delta V or delta T as gate drivers
go. A little shielding wrapped around the 6N136 got it working up to
320V, but I still don't trust it. And the shield reduces the peak voltage
rating in a non-approved manner.
Tim
P.S. Mmmm, Sprecher Abbey Triple. Geez, some fruit flies got in through
the window, they're curious about it. Heck, I would be too. Now where's
the fly swatter...
Resistors aren't necessary with these types, and taking it out to a pin is
far more detrimental in typical applications: big edges really screw them
up.
Note carefully, for example, how Fairchild rates the dV/dt of their 6N136.
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/6N/6N135.pdf
The dV/dt could be 1 or 100kV/us and it won't matter, the charge injection
isn't even enough to turn on the transistor at a mere 10Vpp. Terrible
liars. Other manufacturers rate theirs at only 1kV/us, though still a 10V
edge. Compare that to the SFH6345, which is rated over 10kV/us (by any
manufacturer), and tested with a 1kVpp edge (Avago tests theirs at
1.5kVpp!).
As for empirical results, a 6N136 will do this in a gate driver:
http://t3sl4.dnsdynamic.net/Images/Induction902.jpg
The full waveform is,
http://t3sl4.dnsdynamic.net/Images/Induction901.jpg
which as you can see isn't very much delta V or delta T as gate drivers
go. A little shielding wrapped around the 6N136 got it working up to
320V, but I still don't trust it. And the shield reduces the peak voltage
rating in a non-approved manner.
Tim
P.S. Mmmm, Sprecher Abbey Triple. Geez, some fruit flies got in through
the window, they're curious about it. Heck, I would be too. Now where's
the fly swatter...
upsid...@downunder.com
Sep 2, 2012, 4:02:26 AM9/2/12
to
On Sat, 01 Sep 2012 11:57:06 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
wrote:
>The usual 2kV RMS. It's not that I can't make a small one, done it many
>times. The issue is that on most such projects it has to come with "the
>papers".
You claim that everything suggested is too big, but I just wonder, how
>times. The issue is that on most such projects it has to come with "the
>papers".
you are going to handle the PCB creapage distances with very small
(narrow) packages, if you intend to keep the _system_ level insulation
ratings in the kV range.
Nico Coesel
Sep 2, 2012, 6:34:45 AM9/2/12
to
Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>Hello Folks,
>
>So far I've never had size constraints and my staples were logic devices
>such as the HCNW137 series. Now I need one that ideally doesn't require
>a logic supply on the output, rise/fall times well under 1usec even when
>not fed more than 1mA into the LED, as small as possible. No more than
>about 0.150" wide and 0.250" long. Isolation around 2kV RMS is fine.
>
>This would be at the size pain threshold but as usual is way too slow:
>
>http://www.avagotech.com/docs/AV02-0774EN
>
>I went through scores of them and all in the several usec. Any
>sub-microsecond ones?
>
>Unfortunately the bases aren't pipe out on these so not speed tricks :-(
>
>What I want to do is ferry a fast PWM across a barrier, 100kHz range,
>needs to be somewhat accurate. I could do the transformer plus NRZ thing
>but that gets old and not enough space.
I've used an Avago HCPL-0631 for a similar situation. Its blazingly
>Hello Folks,
>
>So far I've never had size constraints and my staples were logic devices
>such as the HCNW137 series. Now I need one that ideally doesn't require
>a logic supply on the output, rise/fall times well under 1usec even when
>not fed more than 1mA into the LED, as small as possible. No more than
>about 0.150" wide and 0.250" long. Isolation around 2kV RMS is fine.
>
>This would be at the size pain threshold but as usual is way too slow:
>
>http://www.avagotech.com/docs/AV02-0774EN
>
>I went through scores of them and all in the several usec. Any
>sub-microsecond ones?
>
>Unfortunately the bases aren't pipe out on these so not speed tricks :-(
>
>What I want to do is ferry a fast PWM across a barrier, 100kHz range,
>needs to be somewhat accurate. I could do the transformer plus NRZ thing
>but that gets old and not enough space.
fast. It does require 5V-ish power on the secondary side. In my case I
solved that with a simple resistor + zener diode.
--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Joerg
Sep 2, 2012, 10:11:38 AM9/2/12
to
Tim Williams wrote:
> "Joerg" <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:aaf444...@mid.individual.net...
>> The usual 2kV RMS. It's not that I can't make a small one, done it many
>> times. The issue is that on most such projects it has to come with "the
>> papers".
>>
>> Meantime I've found this from Sharp, requires a voltage and no
>> uncommitted emitter but might do the trick here:
>>
>> http://www.sharpsma.com/webfm_send/1118
>
> Cute! It's a miniature SFH6345 (which is, in turn, a 6N136 without the
> base pin...and its pesky capacitance). That'll come in handy for IGBT
> drivers!
>
> Hmm, offhand, Digikey and Mouser don't stock it.. will have to look
> around.
>
They hold 21,000 of them right now. Is that not enough stock? :-)
> "Joerg" <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:aaf444...@mid.individual.net...
>> The usual 2kV RMS. It's not that I can't make a small one, done it many
>> times. The issue is that on most such projects it has to come with "the
>> papers".
>>
>> Meantime I've found this from Sharp, requires a voltage and no
>> uncommitted emitter but might do the trick here:
>>
>> http://www.sharpsma.com/webfm_send/1118
>
> Cute! It's a miniature SFH6345 (which is, in turn, a 6N136 without the
> base pin...and its pesky capacitance). That'll come in handy for IGBT
> drivers!
>
> Hmm, offhand, Digikey and Mouser don't stock it.. will have to look
> around.
>
Joerg
Sep 2, 2012, 10:13:15 AM9/2/12
to
fat HCNW137 chip or the like.
Joerg
Sep 2, 2012, 10:15:47 AM9/2/12
to
length. It would be like trying to squeeze a Ford F-350 Crew Cab with a
full length bed into a parking space for a compact car.
Joerg
Sep 2, 2012, 10:16:27 AM9/2/12
to
Nico Coesel wrote:
> Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Hello Folks,
>>
>> So far I've never had size constraints and my staples were logic devices
>> such as the HCNW137 series. Now I need one that ideally doesn't require
>> a logic supply on the output, rise/fall times well under 1usec even when
>> not fed more than 1mA into the LED, as small as possible. No more than
>> about 0.150" wide and 0.250" long. Isolation around 2kV RMS is fine.
>>
>> This would be at the size pain threshold but as usual is way too slow:
>>
>> http://www.avagotech.com/docs/AV02-0774EN
>>
>> I went through scores of them and all in the several usec. Any
>> sub-microsecond ones?
>>
>> Unfortunately the bases aren't pipe out on these so not speed tricks :-(
>>
>> What I want to do is ferry a fast PWM across a barrier, 100kHz range,
>> needs to be somewhat accurate. I could do the transformer plus NRZ thing
>> but that gets old and not enough space.
>
> I've used an Avago HCPL-0631 for a similar situation. Its blazingly
> fast. It does require 5V-ish power on the secondary side. In my case I
> solved that with a simple resistor + zener diode.
>
But you also had the space for these rather fat IC packages :-)
> Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Hello Folks,
>>
>> So far I've never had size constraints and my staples were logic devices
>> such as the HCNW137 series. Now I need one that ideally doesn't require
>> a logic supply on the output, rise/fall times well under 1usec even when
>> not fed more than 1mA into the LED, as small as possible. No more than
>> about 0.150" wide and 0.250" long. Isolation around 2kV RMS is fine.
>>
>> This would be at the size pain threshold but as usual is way too slow:
>>
>> http://www.avagotech.com/docs/AV02-0774EN
>>
>> I went through scores of them and all in the several usec. Any
>> sub-microsecond ones?
>>
>> Unfortunately the bases aren't pipe out on these so not speed tricks :-(
>>
>> What I want to do is ferry a fast PWM across a barrier, 100kHz range,
>> needs to be somewhat accurate. I could do the transformer plus NRZ thing
>> but that gets old and not enough space.
>
> I've used an Avago HCPL-0631 for a similar situation. Its blazingly
> fast. It does require 5V-ish power on the secondary side. In my case I
> solved that with a simple resistor + zener diode.
>
Nico Coesel
Sep 2, 2012, 10:31:53 AM9/2/12
to
footprint is small and it is a dual-opto so the footpring for each
optocoupler is tiny :-)
Joerg
Sep 2, 2012, 11:08:43 AM9/2/12
to
Tim Williams
Sep 2, 2012, 11:44:51 AM9/2/12
to
"Joerg" <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:aah7ou...@mid.individual.net...
> They hold 21,000 of them right now. Is that not enough stock? :-)
Weird, I had found the PC457L0NIT0F, which has the exact same datasheet,
which is the -P0F, not -T0F.
Digikey has 23k and change of the -NIP0F, and 58k and change of
the -YIP0F, which is VDE marked. Again, same datasheet and link.
Now I want to know what the hell is the difference! Nothing about part
numbering in the datasheet. Sharp's website isn't helpful; datasheet
specifies "corresponding Optoelectronic Application Notes", but there are
none listed under this product type. And their listing shows the
45*6*L0NIP0F, but only the 457 -YIP0F.
Joerg
Sep 2, 2012, 12:25:58 PM9/2/12
to
Tim Williams wrote:
> "Joerg" <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:aah7ou...@mid.individual.net...
>> They hold 21,000 of them right now. Is that not enough stock? :-)
>
> Weird, I had found the PC457L0NIT0F, which has the exact same datasheet,
> which is the -P0F, not -T0F.
>
> Digikey has 23k and change of the -NIP0F, and 58k and change of
> the -YIP0F, which is VDE marked. Again, same datasheet and link.
>
> Now I want to know what the hell is the difference! Nothing about part
> numbering in the datasheet. Sharp's website isn't helpful; datasheet
> specifies "corresponding Optoelectronic Application Notes", but there are
> none listed under this product type. And their listing shows the
> 45*6*L0NIP0F, but only the 457 -YIP0F.
>
The one with VDE papers is around a cent or so more but in some apps you
> "Joerg" <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:aah7ou...@mid.individual.net...
>> They hold 21,000 of them right now. Is that not enough stock? :-)
>
> Weird, I had found the PC457L0NIT0F, which has the exact same datasheet,
> which is the -P0F, not -T0F.
>
> Digikey has 23k and change of the -NIP0F, and 58k and change of
> the -YIP0F, which is VDE marked. Again, same datasheet and link.
>
> Now I want to know what the hell is the difference! Nothing about part
> numbering in the datasheet. Sharp's website isn't helpful; datasheet
> specifies "corresponding Optoelectronic Application Notes", but there are
> none listed under this product type. And their listing shows the
> 45*6*L0NIP0F, but only the 457 -YIP0F.
>
need those papers on file. BT.
TOF was probably a typo and they haven't cleaned it out at Digikey.
John Larkin
Sep 2, 2012, 1:07:55 PM9/2/12
to
http://www.avbc.com/main/our-beers/brother-davids-triple-abbey-style-ale/
I usually drink things that I can see through, but this one is tasty
without being bombastic.
Hey, speaking of stuff like that, yesterday we accidentally made a
life-changing invention:
Get some good Mascarpone cheese; this one is excellent:
http://cravecheese.com/cheese-detail.php?Mascarpone-1
Mix it in a bowl with some powdered sugar, maybe 3 parts cheese to one
part sugar. A few drops of good vanilla won't hurt.
Put a blob of this on a plate with some fresh raspberries or sliced
strawberries. Eat.
John Larkin
Sep 2, 2012, 1:30:50 PM9/2/12
to
On Sun, 2 Sep 2012 10:44:51 -0500, "Tim Williams"
<tmor...@charter.net> wrote:
>"Joerg" <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>news:aah7ou...@mid.individual.net...
>> They hold 21,000 of them right now. Is that not enough stock? :-)
>
>Weird, I had found the PC457L0NIT0F, which has the exact same datasheet,
>which is the -P0F, not -T0F.
>
>Digikey has 23k and change of the -NIP0F, and 58k and change of
>the -YIP0F, which is VDE marked. Again, same datasheet and link.
>
>Now I want to know what the hell is the difference! Nothing about part
>numbering in the datasheet. Sharp's website isn't helpful; datasheet
>specifies "corresponding Optoelectronic Application Notes", but there are
>none listed under this product type. And their listing shows the
>45*6*L0NIP0F, but only the 457 -YIP0F.
>
>Tim
Doncha just hate a data sheet that covers several different parts
<tmor...@charter.net> wrote:
>"Joerg" <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>news:aah7ou...@mid.individual.net...
>> They hold 21,000 of them right now. Is that not enough stock? :-)
>
>Weird, I had found the PC457L0NIT0F, which has the exact same datasheet,
>which is the -P0F, not -T0F.
>
>Digikey has 23k and change of the -NIP0F, and 58k and change of
>the -YIP0F, which is VDE marked. Again, same datasheet and link.
>
>Now I want to know what the hell is the difference! Nothing about part
>numbering in the datasheet. Sharp's website isn't helpful; datasheet
>specifies "corresponding Optoelectronic Application Notes", but there are
>none listed under this product type. And their listing shows the
>45*6*L0NIP0F, but only the 457 -YIP0F.
>
>Tim
without saying what's different about them?
John Larkin
Sep 2, 2012, 1:32:24 PM9/2/12
to
On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 08:08:43 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
Could you send your signal FM instead of PWM?
Joerg
Sep 2, 2012, 3:47:16 PM9/2/12
to
matter.
Joerg
Sep 2, 2012, 3:52:06 PM9/2/12
to
Monde", this stuff but the big Belgian style bottle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Fin_du_Monde_(beer)
[...]
Tim Williams
Sep 2, 2012, 4:53:02 PM9/2/12
to
"John Larkin" <jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in
message news:ks574890kf8dqpgfg...@4ax.com...
> Doncha just hate a data sheet that covers several different parts
> without saying what's different about them?
Doncha hate it more when it covers them, but it's wrong? We found that on
> without saying what's different about them?
a Schaffner line filter. Datasheet listed options for termination (lugs,
posts, etc.), so we bought the different style, doesn't fit -- mounting
holes in the wrong place. No drawing exists of this footprint variant.
Go figure.
Tim Williams
Sep 2, 2012, 4:55:12 PM9/2/12
to
"John Larkin" <jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in
message news:vv5748pc7hrm987cu...@4ax.com...
> Could you send your signal FM instead of PWM?
Or just DC, without the PWM?
Those dual photodiode couplers are pretty accurate, but they generally
need to be trimmed on assembly to get the gain right.
Michael A. Terrell
Sep 2, 2012, 5:17:00 PM9/2/12
to
Tim Williams wrote:
>
> "John Larkin" <jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in
> message news:ks574890kf8dqpgfg...@4ax.com...
> > Doncha just hate a data sheet that covers several different parts
> > without saying what's different about them?
>
> Doncha hate it more when it covers them, but it's wrong? We found that on
> a Schaffner line filter. Datasheet listed options for termination (lugs,
> posts, etc.), so we bought the different style, doesn't fit -- mounting
> holes in the wrong place. No drawing exists of this footprint variant.
> Go figure.
has the part number in a drawing of how the part is packaged? I was
looking for FDB603AL, and kept getting FDB603xAL references. The online
datasheet sites are getting worse about false SEO, where they generate a
hit for parts they don't have data on. I finally found what I was
looking for, but only after 50+ bad leads.
N-Channel Logic Level Enhancement Mode Field Effect Transistor,
33 A, 30 V. RDS(ON) = 0.022 W @ VGS=10 V
RDS(ON) = 0.036 W @ VGS=4.5 V.
I want to use them in a PWM temperature controller for multiple
soldering irons, with an Atmel Mega series processor. The irons have
thermisors, so I will use the A/D to sense the temperature, and set the
PWM to compensate. A 20*4 LCD to display setup & current temperature for
each of several irons. A 15A 24V switcher will power everything.
I would like to squeeze everything into this case
http://www.ebay.com/itm/230820016901 if it will fit.
George Herold
Sep 2, 2012, 6:16:41 PM9/2/12
to
On Sep 2, 3:52 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> John Larkin wrote:
> > On Sat, 1 Sep 2012 21:21:37 -0500, "Tim Williams"
> > <tmoran...@charter.net> wrote:
> John Larkin wrote:
> > On Sat, 1 Sep 2012 21:21:37 -0500, "Tim Williams"
>
> >> "John Larkin" <jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in
> >> messagenews:58f548lebgs97t4s1...@4ax.com...
>
> Great! Yesterday we had a bottle of the end of the world, "Fin du
> Monde", this stuff but the big Belgian style bottle:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Fin_du_Monde_(beer)
>
> [...]
>
> --
> Regards, Joerg
>
> http://www.analogconsultants.com/- Hide quoted text -
> Great! Yesterday we had a bottle of the end of the world, "Fin du
> Monde", this stuff but the big Belgian style bottle:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Fin_du_Monde_(beer)
>
> [...]
>
> --
> Regards, Joerg
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Ohh, that's almost local to Buf., NY. I like their "trois pistoles".
Belgain style abbey ale...
George H.
Tim Williams
Sep 2, 2012, 7:07:42 PM9/2/12
to
"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:DOqdncUHn7NPUd7N...@earthlink.com...
$$$, but few ameteurs have more than three hands to use at a time, not
sure what else you'd be using all them for!
news:DOqdncUHn7NPUd7N...@earthlink.com...
> I want to use them in a PWM temperature controller for multiple
> soldering irons, with an Atmel Mega series processor. The irons have
> thermisors, so I will use the A/D to sense the temperature, and set the
> PWM to compensate. A 20*4 LCD to display setup & current temperature for
> each of several irons. A 15A 24V switcher will power everything.
Or you could buy a Hakko multi station ;-)
> soldering irons, with an Atmel Mega series processor. The irons have
> thermisors, so I will use the A/D to sense the temperature, and set the
> PWM to compensate. A 20*4 LCD to display setup & current temperature for
> each of several irons. A 15A 24V switcher will power everything.
$$$, but few ameteurs have more than three hands to use at a time, not
sure what else you'd be using all them for!
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Sep 2, 2012, 7:51:00 PM9/2/12
to
On Sun, 2 Sep 2012 18:07:42 -0500, "Tim Williams" <tmor...@charter.net>
wrote:
>"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:DOqdncUHn7NPUd7N...@earthlink.com...
>> I want to use them in a PWM temperature controller for multiple
>> soldering irons, with an Atmel Mega series processor. The irons have
>> thermisors, so I will use the A/D to sense the temperature, and set the
>> PWM to compensate. A 20*4 LCD to display setup & current temperature for
>> each of several irons. A 15A 24V switcher will power everything.
>
>Or you could buy a Hakko multi station ;-)
>
>$$$, but few ameteurs have more than three hands to use at a time, not
>sure what else you'd be using all them for!
I have two Metcals at the station I share, each with two iron (two irons,
tweezers, and a sucker). Each of the two Metcals has two ports, unfortunately
only one is active at a time. I'm always waiting for an iron to heat. I
should get another controller (I don't use the sucker much).
wrote:
>"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:DOqdncUHn7NPUd7N...@earthlink.com...
>> I want to use them in a PWM temperature controller for multiple
>> soldering irons, with an Atmel Mega series processor. The irons have
>> thermisors, so I will use the A/D to sense the temperature, and set the
>> PWM to compensate. A 20*4 LCD to display setup & current temperature for
>> each of several irons. A 15A 24V switcher will power everything.
>
>Or you could buy a Hakko multi station ;-)
>
>$$$, but few ameteurs have more than three hands to use at a time, not
>sure what else you'd be using all them for!
tweezers, and a sucker). Each of the two Metcals has two ports, unfortunately
only one is active at a time. I'm always waiting for an iron to heat. I
should get another controller (I don't use the sucker much).
Michael A. Terrell
Sep 2, 2012, 8:09:34 PM9/2/12
to
Tim Williams wrote:
>
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>
> > I want to use them in a PWM temperature controller for multiple
> > soldering irons, with an Atmel Mega series processor. The irons have
> > thermisors, so I will use the A/D to sense the temperature, and set the
> > PWM to compensate. A 20*4 LCD to display setup & current temperature for
> > each of several irons. A 15A 24V switcher will power everything.
>
> Or you could buy a Hakko multi station ;-)
If I didn't eat for about four months. I can buy knockoff
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>
> > I want to use them in a PWM temperature controller for multiple
> > soldering irons, with an Atmel Mega series processor. The irons have
> > thermisors, so I will use the A/D to sense the temperature, and set the
> > PWM to compensate. A 20*4 LCD to display setup & current temperature for
> > each of several irons. A 15A 24V switcher will power everything.
>
> Or you could buy a Hakko multi station ;-)
replacement irons for under $7 each, and the tips for under a buck,
each. I should have well under $100 for the whole project. I also blew
$5 for an adjustable boost converter to run an iron off a 12 volt jump
pack.
> $$$, but few ameteurs have more than three hands to use at a time, not
> sure what else you'd be using all them for!
temperatures for hours at a time at the bench. I had three Ungar 'Loner'
irons on my microscope bench at microdyne. Our rework stations had six,
plus desoldering irons.
Michael A. Terrell
Sep 2, 2012, 8:13:40 PM9/2/12
to
to find was the five pin connectors for the irons, but I found a
Philmore dealer who stocks them. There are two versions of the
handles. The other uses a five pin DIN connector with a locking ring
that costs more. :)
Message has been deleted
Joerg
Sep 3, 2012, 12:43:41 PM9/3/12
to
Fred Abse wrote:
>
But it's brewed in Canada :-)
"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
> On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 12:52:06 -0700, Joerg wrote:
>
>> Great! Yesterday we had a bottle of the end of the world, "Fin du Monde",
>> this stuff but the big Belgian style bottle:
>
> Belgium *is* the end of the world ;-)
>
>> Great! Yesterday we had a bottle of the end of the world, "Fin du Monde",
>> this stuff but the big Belgian style bottle:
>
>
But it's brewed in Canada :-)
"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
spamtrap1888
Sep 3, 2012, 12:49:27 PM9/3/12
to
On Sep 3, 9:43 am, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Fred Abse wrote:
> > On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 12:52:06 -0700, Joerg wrote:
>
> >> Great! Yesterday we had a bottle of the end of the world, "Fin du Monde",
> >> this stuff but the big Belgian style bottle:
>
> > Belgium *is* the end of the world ;-)
>
> But it's brewed in Canada :-)
>
You have to go to Russian River Bwg in Santa Rosa and taste their
> Fred Abse wrote:
> > On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 12:52:06 -0700, Joerg wrote:
>
> >> Great! Yesterday we had a bottle of the end of the world, "Fin du Monde",
> >> this stuff but the big Belgian style bottle:
>
> > Belgium *is* the end of the world ;-)
>
> But it's brewed in Canada :-)
>
Belgian-style wild fermented beers. They are spot-on and delicious.
John Larkin
Sep 3, 2012, 12:55:26 PM9/3/12
to
On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 09:43:41 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
>Fred Abse wrote:
>> On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 12:52:06 -0700, Joerg wrote:
>>
>>> Great! Yesterday we had a bottle of the end of the world, "Fin du Monde",
>>> this stuff but the big Belgian style bottle:
>>
>> Belgium *is* the end of the world ;-)
>>
>
>But it's brewed in Canada :-)
Opposite end of the world.
wrote:
>Fred Abse wrote:
>> On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 12:52:06 -0700, Joerg wrote:
>>
>>> Great! Yesterday we had a bottle of the end of the world, "Fin du Monde",
>>> this stuff but the big Belgian style bottle:
>>
>> Belgium *is* the end of the world ;-)
>>
>
>But it's brewed in Canada :-)
Joerg
Sep 3, 2012, 3:19:55 PM9/3/12
to
John Larkin wrote:
> On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 09:43:41 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> Fred Abse wrote:
>>> On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 12:52:06 -0700, Joerg wrote:
>>>
>>>> Great! Yesterday we had a bottle of the end of the world, "Fin du Monde",
>>>> this stuff but the big Belgian style bottle:
>>> Belgium *is* the end of the world ;-)
>>>
>> But it's brewed in Canada :-)
>
> Opposite end of the world.
>
Don't say that when Phil is listening ...
> On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 09:43:41 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> Fred Abse wrote:
>>> On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 12:52:06 -0700, Joerg wrote:
>>>
>>>> Great! Yesterday we had a bottle of the end of the world, "Fin du Monde",
>>>> this stuff but the big Belgian style bottle:
>>> Belgium *is* the end of the world ;-)
>>>
>> But it's brewed in Canada :-)
>
> Opposite end of the world.
>
But seriously, Fin du Monde is very good stuff. Has nine volts, so one
should not have to drive afterwards.
Nico Coesel
Sep 3, 2012, 6:17:47 PM9/3/12
to
board.
Maybe this one fits your bill:
http://www.semicon.toshiba.co.jp/eng/product_detail/opto/coupler/1260161_13597.html
Joerg
Sep 3, 2012, 6:33:44 PM9/3/12
to
logic supply but can take up to 20V. A bit hungry at 3mA but that would
nicely fit the 10V I've got there.
Phil Hobbs
Sep 3, 2012, 9:05:40 PM9/3/12
to
of stuff--at least after a few beers. ;)
Or did you mean Antipodean Phil? (Who knows his stuff, but seldom
appears relaxed about anything. Of course if I had to stand on my head
all the time, I probably wouldn't be either.) ;)
Cheers
Phil "On vacation at the Jersey Shore" Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058
hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
Nico Coesel
Sep 4, 2012, 2:40:00 AM9/4/12
to
ones but the specs for those say nothing about speed. Only that they
can be used for driving MOSTFETs.
Message has been deleted
Joerg
Sep 4, 2012, 1:22:27 PM9/4/12
to
Fred Abse wrote:
>
Do you know how they are WRT longterm availability? Production time
frames more like two or three decade. With HP ... Avago that was never a
problem but they don't have anything suitable for this app.
> TLP2366:
>
> Rise & fall time typ. 15ns @ Vf 0-14mA
>
> 3.7 x 4.5mm
>
> http://www.semicon.toshiba.co.jp/info/docget.jsp?type=datasheet&lang=en&pid=TLP2366
>
> It's an "IC output" type, needing Vcc of 2.7 to 5.5V on the output side, so you
> mighn't like it.
>
It's a good device, inverts which is nice, but I only have around 10V
and no space. I could also siphon off 1.5V or so somewhere on the RX
side but it won't run with that. They also recommend to give it north of
4.5mA on the LED which really is a bit much.
> On Tue, 04 Sep 2012 06:40:00 +0000, Nico Coesel wrote:
>
>> If you look at Toshiba's website you'll see they have even smaller ones
>> but the specs for those say nothing about speed. Only that they can be
>> used for driving MOSTFETs.
>
> I've always liked Tosh optos.
>
>> If you look at Toshiba's website you'll see they have even smaller ones
>> but the specs for those say nothing about speed. Only that they can be
>> used for driving MOSTFETs.
>
>
Do you know how they are WRT longterm availability? Production time
frames more like two or three decade. With HP ... Avago that was never a
problem but they don't have anything suitable for this app.
> TLP2366:
>
> Rise & fall time typ. 15ns @ Vf 0-14mA
>
> 3.7 x 4.5mm
>
> http://www.semicon.toshiba.co.jp/info/docget.jsp?type=datasheet&lang=en&pid=TLP2366
>
> It's an "IC output" type, needing Vcc of 2.7 to 5.5V on the output side, so you
> mighn't like it.
>
It's a good device, inverts which is nice, but I only have around 10V
and no space. I could also siphon off 1.5V or so somewhere on the RX
side but it won't run with that. They also recommend to give it north of
4.5mA on the LED which really is a bit much.
Message has been deleted
Joerg
Sep 4, 2012, 1:40:15 PM9/4/12
to
Fred Abse wrote:
>
> I notice that there's an EOL notice on TLP621, but their suggested "almost
> equivalent will do what I want.
>
> IME, the reliability of Tosh optos is better than their HP/Agilent
> comparables.
>
That's good to know, Fred, thanks. I guess I'll use a Toshiba opto then.
> On Tue, 04 Sep 2012 10:22:27 -0700, Joerg wrote:
>
>> Do you know how they are WRT longterm availability? Production time
>> frames more like two or three decade.
>
> I've been using TLP550s for north of 20 years. They still make those.
>
>> Do you know how they are WRT longterm availability? Production time
>> frames more like two or three decade.
>
>
> I notice that there's an EOL notice on TLP621, but their suggested "almost
> equivalent will do what I want.
>
> IME, the reliability of Tosh optos is better than their HP/Agilent
> comparables.
>
That's good to know, Fred, thanks. I guess I'll use a Toshiba opto then.
rickman
Sep 7, 2012, 3:16:49 PM9/7/12
to
On 9/2/2012 1:30 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Sep 2012 10:44:51 -0500, "Tim Williams"
> <tmor...@charter.net> wrote:
>
>> "Joerg"<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:aah7ou...@mid.individual.net...
>>> They hold 21,000 of them right now. Is that not enough stock? :-)
>>
>> Weird, I had found the PC457L0NIT0F, which has the exact same datasheet,
>> which is the -P0F, not -T0F.
>>
>> Digikey has 23k and change of the -NIP0F, and 58k and change of
>> the -YIP0F, which is VDE marked. Again, same datasheet and link.
>>
>> Now I want to know what the hell is the difference! Nothing about part
>> numbering in the datasheet. Sharp's website isn't helpful; datasheet
>> specifies "corresponding Optoelectronic Application Notes", but there are
>> none listed under this product type. And their listing shows the
>> 45*6*L0NIP0F, but only the 457 -YIP0F.
>>
>> Tim
>
> Doncha just hate a data sheet that covers several different parts
> without saying what's different about them?
As long as you've opened the data sheet gripe door, the other day I was
> On Sun, 2 Sep 2012 10:44:51 -0500, "Tim Williams"
> <tmor...@charter.net> wrote:
>
>> "Joerg"<inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:aah7ou...@mid.individual.net...
>>> They hold 21,000 of them right now. Is that not enough stock? :-)
>>
>> Weird, I had found the PC457L0NIT0F, which has the exact same datasheet,
>> which is the -P0F, not -T0F.
>>
>> Digikey has 23k and change of the -NIP0F, and 58k and change of
>> the -YIP0F, which is VDE marked. Again, same datasheet and link.
>>
>> Now I want to know what the hell is the difference! Nothing about part
>> numbering in the datasheet. Sharp's website isn't helpful; datasheet
>> specifies "corresponding Optoelectronic Application Notes", but there are
>> none listed under this product type. And their listing shows the
>> 45*6*L0NIP0F, but only the 457 -YIP0F.
>>
>> Tim
>
> Doncha just hate a data sheet that covers several different parts
> without saying what's different about them?
looking for LCD capable MCUs and Freescale has a line of nice ones.
Trouble is they put out a data book for each *package* variant! The LCD
controller has access to fewer or more pins depending on the package.
Ok, so I have to look in three data books to find which one will meet my
needs... everywhere I find a reference to the number of LCD pins
supported, the footnote refers me to the pin out section. In the pinout
section they refer me to... the pinout section! I guess the info is in
the pin list if I want to track down and count some 40+ signals in the
multiplexed IO lists.
I write to Freescale support and they seem to have moved to the other
half of the world. Every reply takes a full day, often sent in the wee
hours of the morning and clearly shows they don't understand my
question. After four attempts to get them to find me the info of LCD
pins vs. package I get the counts I asked for. Finally I got them to
understand they might want to add this to the data sheets rather than
expect the user to wade through the pinout lists.
Does it really save Freescale money to move support to a third world
country if they spend four times as much effort answering a question? I
won't even try to understand why they publish a separate data book for
every package of a part.
Rick
joey8...@yahoo.cn
Dec 28, 2012, 3:21:14 AM12/28/12
to ne...@analogconsultants.com
It's a miniature SFH6345 (which is, in turn, a 6N136 without the base pin...and its pesky capacitance). http://www.hqew.net/product-data/6N136
Phil Hobbs
Dec 28, 2012, 8:26:58 PM12/28/12
to
On 12/28/2012 3:21 AM, joey8...@yahoo.cn wrote:
> It's a miniature SFH6345 (which is, in turn, a 6N136 without the base pin...and its pesky capacitance). http://www.hqew.net/product-data/6N136
>
Welcome to SED. This is a Usenet group, and on Usenet it's customary to
> It's a miniature SFH6345 (which is, in turn, a 6N136 without the base pin...and its pesky capacitance). http://www.hqew.net/product-data/6N136
>
quote at least the relevant parts of the post you're replying to, so
that everybody can follow the discussion. Also it's important to put
your stuff at the bottom, like this, because it makes it easy to follow
the flow of the discussion.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
160 North State Road #203
+1 845 480 2058
lang...@fonz.dk
Dec 28, 2012, 8:32:06 PM12/28/12
to
On Dec 29, 2:26 am, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> On 12/28/2012 3:21 AM, joey899...@yahoo.cn wrote:
>
> > It's a miniature SFH6345 (which is, in turn, a 6N136 without the base pin...and its pesky capacitance).http://www.hqew.net/product-data/6N136
thread that has been dead for 3 months
-Lasse
<pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> On 12/28/2012 3:21 AM, joey899...@yahoo.cn wrote:
>
> > It's a miniature SFH6345 (which is, in turn, a 6N136 without the base pin...and its pesky capacitance).http://www.hqew.net/product-data/6N136
>
> Welcome to SED. This is a Usenet group, and on Usenet it's customary to
> quote at least the relevant parts of the post you're replying to, so
> that everybody can follow the discussion. Also it's important to put
> your stuff at the bottom, like this, because it makes it easy to follow
> the flow of the discussion.
>
> Cheers
>
and I'd add, most times there is not much point in replying to a
> Welcome to SED. This is a Usenet group, and on Usenet it's customary to
> quote at least the relevant parts of the post you're replying to, so
> that everybody can follow the discussion. Also it's important to put
> your stuff at the bottom, like this, because it makes it easy to follow
> the flow of the discussion.
>
> Cheers
>
thread that has been dead for 3 months
-Lasse
Phil Hobbs
Dec 28, 2012, 8:40:09 PM12/28/12
to
purpose. ;)
If you stick to stuff that's a year or two old, usually nobody notices.
John Larkin
Dec 28, 2012, 9:57:48 PM12/28/12
to
On Fri, 28 Dec 2012 00:21:14 -0800 (PST), joey8...@yahoo.cn wrote:
> It's a miniature SFH6345 (which is, in turn, a 6N136 without the base pin...and its pesky capacitance). http://www.hqew.net/product-data/6N136
The base pin is a feature, not a bug. Adding a b-e resistor drops CTR
> It's a miniature SFH6345 (which is, in turn, a 6N136 without the base pin...and its pesky capacitance). http://www.hqew.net/product-data/6N136
a bit but really speeds things up.
This is fast,
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/Circuits/Optos/Opto_Totem.JPG
even faster with some b-e resistors.
Tim Williams
Dec 28, 2012, 10:25:22 PM12/28/12
to
"Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote in message
news:y-mdndP3O-ZA20PN...@supernews.com...
> Welcome to SED. This is a Usenet group, and ...
It's a spammer. Killfile and forget.
Tim
--
Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk.
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
news:y-mdndP3O-ZA20PN...@supernews.com...
> Welcome to SED. This is a Usenet group, and ...
It's a spammer. Killfile and forget.
Tim
--
Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk.
Phil Hobbs
Dec 29, 2012, 1:35:22 AM12/29/12
to
On 12/28/2012 10:25 PM, Tim Williams wrote:
> "Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote in message
> news:y-mdndP3O-ZA20PN...@supernews.com...
>> On 12/28/2012 3:21 AM, joey8...@yahoo.cn wrote:
>>
>> Welcome to SED. This is a Usenet group, and ...
>
> It's a spammer. Killfile and forget.
>
> Tim
>
I noticed the links, but he does seem to understand the context better
> "Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote in message
> news:y-mdndP3O-ZA20PN...@supernews.com...
>> On 12/28/2012 3:21 AM, joey8...@yahoo.cn wrote:
>>
>> Welcome to SED. This is a Usenet group, and ...
>
> It's a spammer. Killfile and forget.
>
> Tim
>
than your average spammer, so maybe he's for real. We live in 'opes.
WangoTango
Jan 1, 2013, 1:21:57 PM1/1/13
to
In article <dqmsd8tnmrgnp29km...@4ax.com>,
jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com says...
I've used that very configuration for an isolated serial link.
The only thing I did differently was to add a little resistance to the
top of the totem pole. Works like a charm.
jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com says...
The only thing I did differently was to add a little resistance to the
top of the totem pole. Works like a charm.
John Larkin
Jan 1, 2013, 1:44:19 PM1/1/13
to
This is faster, with some boosted transient drive:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/Circuits/Optos/Faster_Opto_Totem.JPG
I've done a couple of high-voltage amps in a similar sort of way...
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/Circuits/Optos/HVamp.JPG
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