Liability & responsibility of electrician?
John E.
A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring (3-phase
outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where he wanted
them.
He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but has
done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.
Owner throws the switch, all works fine.
The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
controller PCB to the tune of $4000.
Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the CNC's
power supply were set for 220.
What is the legal and moral responsibility of each party?
What will not be helpful are replies about the character or intelligence of
either of the players or their actions.
Thanks.
--
John English
Spehro Pefhany
IMO, 11% high voltage over nominal should not "fry" the controller
board in the first place.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Phil Allison
"John E."
>
>I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.
>
> A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring (3-phase
> outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where he wanted
> them.
>
> He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but
> has
> done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
> does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.
>
> Owner throws the switch, all works fine.
>
> The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
> controller PCB to the tune of $4000.
>
> Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the
> CNC's
> power supply were set for 220.
>
> What is the legal and moral responsibility of each party?
** What a STUPID troll !!!
The PSU in the CNC blew cos it was a pile of shit PLUS the design was 100%
incompetant cos it gave no protection to the delicate and expensive load.
Bet it was old and way past use by date too.
Piss off TROLL !!
.... Phil
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
The "electrician" is culpable as it was found that the wiring was to
blame. That proof alone means that he would be culpable, regardless of
his credentials, or lack thereof.
The owner should bear some blame (as in be lenient in court) for trying
to economize costs in the wrong area (he should have paid the licensed
and insured electrician).
Also knowing how to hook up systems well, and knowing how to do a
proper requirements analysis are two different things and define some of
the differences between the grunt pulling the wires and the supervisor
laying out the plan and making sure that the machines and their power
sources are matched. Since a failure mode did occur, it would be
improper not to make a negative statement about the character of the
installer.
Also, though it was not a lack of intelligence that compelled the owner
to choose the riskier path, it does indicate a lack of wisdom, which I am
sure has received a boost due to these events already.
PS Cross-posting is lame.
Archimedes' Lever
wrote:
Probably a good call, since modern switchers, which the DC supplies
for these things usually are, can handle up to about 265 volts. Even a
bit more, typically.
Harold and Susan Vordos
"StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt" <Zarat...@thusspoke.org> wrote in message
news:2bm055h02mhs5trp9...@4ax.com...
snip----
>
> The "electrician" is culpable as it was found that the wiring was to
> blame. That proof alone means that he would be culpable, regardless of
> his credentials, or lack thereof.
Nonsense. The voltage at the panel has nothing to do with the wireman. It's
a function of the transformer at the pole. The voltage in my shop, wired
with three phase delta, is also upwards of 245 volts.
The only way a wireman could be responsible is if the panel was wired three
phase delta, with a high leg, and he had assigned the high leg to one of the
120 volt circuits, yielding 208 or more volts.
The voltage declared indicates that the service is, indeed, delta.
Harold
Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:
>I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.
The nominal utility power as supplied is supposed to be 240V. 5
volts over is a touch hot, but not out of the bounds of normal
tolerances - turn everything on in the neighborhood some hot August
afternoon with the AC units cranked, and tell me what the voltage
reads then...
If they were seeing 250V - 255V or more, then I'd call the Utility
and get the transformer taps knocked down a notch.
If the power supply on the CNC computer had changeable taps, and the
last guy that touched it didn't have any reason to look to see what it
was set for, IMHO it's nobody's fault. Especially if the shop they
moved from and the one they moved to had the same nominal operating
voltage, and they knew it - I'm not going to open 50 machines looking
for the unexpected when I'm charging by the hour unless I have a good
reason to... Just "Git Er Done" and go home.
If he had a reason to look inside and saw it was on the 220V tap he
should have moved it to the 240V - or told the owner - it's good
practice to follow but there's no responsibility to look involved.
And I wouldn't expect 255V on the 220V tap to kill it. Now if it
was set for 208V input and you fed it off the 'High Leg' from an Open
Delta service that's hovering around 280V to ground, THEN I'd expect
fireworks. Open Delta High Leg voltages can bounce around and go even
higher, then something flashes over...
That would be the /one/ time I'd call it against the Handyman,
putting the high leg on the control circuit would be a big goof. You
are supposed to put the regular 240V legs on the A and C phases coming
in, and the 'High Leg' Orange lead to B phase and NOT the controls.
The average power supply is supposed to feed +5V, +12V & -12V etc.
to the computer board, and have Crowbar protection so that's all that
gets through. If the supply blows up and lets line voltage through to
fry the controller board (even if you put an over-voltage on the
input) that's a badly built power supply.
Otherwise, it's entirely possible that it just reached End Of Life
and decided to go out in a spectacular manner, and the move had
nothing to do with it. The timer that makes things blow up three days
out of warranty finally went off.
Unless you want to spend a lot of money on Electronic Forensics to
analyze the power supply failure, "The world may never know..."
--<< Bruce >>--
PS - Have to trim off alt-r.c.m to make this go, 4 crosspost limit.
Phil Allison
"Archimedes' Lever"
"Phil Allison"
>
>>"John E."
>>>
>>>I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.
>>>
>>> A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring
>>> (3-phase
>>> outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where he wanted
>>> them.
>>>
>>> He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but
>>> has
>>> done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The
>>> guy
>>> does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.
>>>
>>> Owner throws the switch, all works fine.
>>>
>>> The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
>>> controller PCB to the tune of $4000.
>>>
>>> Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the
>>> CNC's
>>> power supply were set for 220.
>>>
>>> What is the legal and moral responsibility of each party?
>>
>>
>>** What a STUPID troll !!!
>>
>>The PSU in the CNC blew cos it was a pile of shit PLUS the design was
>>100%
>>incompetant cos it gave no protection to the delicate and expensive load.
>>
>>Bet it was old and way past use by date too.
>>
>>Piss off TROLL !!
>>
>
> for these things usually are, can handle up to about 265 volts. Even a
> bit more, typically.
** Unlikely it was a SMPS based on the OP's admittedly poor and incomplete
info.
Cos SMPS do not have multi-taps for AC input voltage - PLUS if an
off-line switcher fails from overvoltage, it just blows the fuse and goes
dead.
But losing regulation and over-voltaging the load ( as was alleged by the
OP) is another scenario altogether - more often associated with old age or
the failure of one of a few critical components in the regulation loop.
..... Phil
Nico Coesel
>On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 23:40:18 -0700, John E. <inco...@xbjcd.com> wrote:
>
>>I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.
>>
>>A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring (3-phase
>>outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where he wanted
>>them.
>>
>>He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but has
>>done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
>>does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.
>>
>>Owner throws the switch, all works fine.
>>
>>The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
>>controller PCB to the tune of $4000.
>>
>>Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the CNC's
>>power supply were set for 220.
>>
>>What is the legal and moral responsibility of each party?
>>
>>What will not be helpful are replies about the character or intelligence of
>>either of the players or their actions.
>>
>>Thanks.
>
> The "electrician" is culpable as it was found that the wiring was to
>blame. That proof alone means that he would be culpable, regardless of
>his credentials, or lack thereof.
>
> The owner should bear some blame (as in be lenient in court) for trying
>to economize costs in the wrong area (he should have paid the licensed
>and insured electrician).
Nonsense. If you hire a 'pro' chances are they make even more
mistakes. In this case the owner is to blame. He should have hired
someone from the company that sells the CNC machines to connect them
properly to the mains.
--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
"If it doesn't fit, use a bigger hammer!"
--------------------------------------------------------------
Larry The Snake Guy
> Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the CNC's
> power supply were set for 220.
As others have said, there's not much the wiring guy could have done
wrong to get 245 volts rather than 220. He hooked up what was there
and couldn't be expected to have detailed knowledge of what the owner
was going to run, what setting he had it on or how sensitive it was.
Does the owner have some reason to believe that this was not the
voltage in the new shop before the additions?
Richard J Kinch
> What is the legal and moral responsibility of each party?
None. It is George Bush's fault.
Geoffrey S. Mendelson
> A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring (3-phase
> outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where he wanted
> them.
>
> He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but has
> done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
> does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.
It is the owner of the shop to make sure the electrician he hired was licensed
and if needed insured. Since you did not say where this happened, I can only
make a blanket statement.
If the "guy" represneted himself as a licensed electrictian, then there may
be some criminal liability here for fraud. If he did not claim to be licensed,
or the owner of the business knew that he was not licensed, he is free and
clear.
If the owner hired him knowing he was not licensed, then it was his
responsability to hire a licensed electrician to inspect the work before
he "threw the switch". If he did not, he may be subject to criminal and
civil penalties, have his electricity turned off, etc.
>
> Owner throws the switch, all works fine.
>
> The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
> controller PCB to the tune of $4000.
>
> Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the CNC's
> power supply were set for 220.
And how do you know that? What device did you use to measure the voltage.
Assuming the voltmeter was accurate to 2% and rounded up, 240 volts would read
245. The difference is negligable anyway.
As for the voltage setting on the device, it's not the "wiring guy's" job.
Would you want some random "handyman" poking around inside of an expensive
CNC machine?
> What is the legal and moral responsibility of each party?
I am not a lawyer, but from my (mis)understanding, as long as the "guy" did
not represent himself as an expert on the machine in question, or as a licensed
electrician, ALL of the responsability falls on the owner of the business and
none on the "guy" or anyone's insurance company.
> What will not be helpful are replies about the character or intelligence of
> either of the players or their actions.
Well, I'm going to make one. If the "guy" was up front about his not being
licensed, nor trained on the insides of the CNC machine, he is of good
character and reasonable intelligence.
Let's just say that the person who hired him was also of good character and
intelligence, but ignorant of the law and the requirments of equipment.
He's lucky that all he suffered was one $4000 board failing, not his
entire factory burning down around him with no insurance.
If in the future, he does not hire a licensed electrician to perform the
necessary inspections, etc, nor a properly trained technician to inspect
the equipment, you can say something very different.
I also think it is fair to assume that he has by now had a licensed electrician
in to inspect the work, and a trained technicain in to check all of his
equipment. If he has not done both.........
BTW, if both locations are connected to the same "power grid", it is
unlikely that the line voltage was 220 volts in the old location and 240
in the new one.
Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel g...@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM
Andrew VK3BFA
Tempting as it is to blame your Mr Bush for all the eveils of the
world, including my hens not laying, I would propose the following:
1.As noted, the main supply voltage is nominal, variations are normal
and to be expected.
2.Possibly, if the machine was let stand for a while in the unpowered
position, and it was an old controller (and with a linear power
supply, it probably was,) then the electrolytics in the power supply
could have failed due high ESR, and then it lost regulation and fried
the board.
3.My humble opinion is to just mark write it off to bad luck.
Otherwise, get the lawyers involved for years and huge amounts of
money......
Andrew VK3BFA
Andrew VK3BFA
Tempting as it is to blame your Mr Bush for all the eveils of the
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
<vor...@tds.net> wrote:
>
>"StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt" <Zarat...@thusspoke.org> wrote in message
>news:2bm055h02mhs5trp9...@4ax.com...
>snip----
>>
>> The "electrician" is culpable as it was found that the wiring was to
>> blame. That proof alone means that he would be culpable, regardless of
>> his credentials, or lack thereof.
>
>Nonsense.
Nonsense? Take your retarded queries elsewhere, crossposting, idiot,
troll fucktard.
> The voltage at the panel has nothing to do with the wireman. It's
>a function of the transformer at the pole. The voltage in my shop, wired
>with three phase delta, is also upwards of 245 volts.
When a man wires up a machine, it is his responsibility to make sure
that the machine he is connecting to power is set up for the voltage he
is providing to it.
>
>The only way a wireman could be responsible is if the panel was wired three
>phase delta, with a high leg, and he had assigned the high leg to one of the
>120 volt circuits, yielding 208 or more volts.
He is responsible because he did not perform the requirements analysis.
>
>The voltage declared indicates that the service is, indeed, delta.
>
Doesn't matter. The device to be powered must not be wired up with an
inappropriate feed, or fail to be set up to take the feed that is
provided.
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
>
>Nonsense. If you hire a 'pro' chances are they make even more
>mistakes. In this case the owner is to blame. He should have hired
>someone from the company that sells the CNC machines to connect them
>properly to the mains.
If a proper electrician does not know how to hook up a machine, he is
not a proper electrician.
Pro work is usually insured.
That makes you wrong on both counts.
Nico Coesel
>On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 08:34:43 GMT, ni...@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) wrote:
>
>>
>>Nonsense. If you hire a 'pro' chances are they make even more
>>mistakes. In this case the owner is to blame. He should have hired
>>someone from the company that sells the CNC machines to connect them
>>properly to the mains.
>
> If a proper electrician does not know how to hook up a machine, he is
>not a proper electrician.
A CNC machine is something different than a light bulb. Few
electricians know more than how to connect a light bulb and outlets.
Besides, the story doesn't tell whether the machine has a permanent
mains connection or is connected by a cord.
Baron
> I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.
>
> A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring
> (3-phase outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines
> where he wanted them.
>
> He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured)
> but has done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track
> record. The guy does good work. No complaints about the quality of his
> work.
>
> Owner throws the switch, all works fine.
>
> The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries
> its controller PCB to the tune of $4000.
>
> Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in
> the CNC's power supply were set for 220.
>
> What is the legal and moral responsibility of each party?
Non since the machine could fail at any time irrespective of the move or
wiring. The CNC machine would quite easily cope with this variation in
supply voltage particularly in an industrial environment where spikes,
dips and line noise would predominate.
> What will not be helpful are replies about the character or
> intelligence of either of the players or their actions.
>
> Thanks.
--
Best Regards:
Baron.
Doug Miller
>
>The voltage declared indicates that the service is, indeed, delta.
Nonsense. 245VAC could *easily* be a [nominal] 240V single-phase service.
Doug Miller
>BTW, if both locations are connected to the same "power grid", it is
>unlikely that the line voltage was 220 volts in the old location and 240
>in the new one.
Incorrect. Distribution voltages are on the order of a few thousand volts,
stepped down by transformers at the point of service to a few hundred. New
location = different transformer = possibly different service voltage even if
the distribution voltages are exactly the same.
That said, though.... any device designed for 220V should be able to handle
245V.
Doug Miller
>I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.
>
>A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring (3-phase
>outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where he wanted
>them.
>
>He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but has
>done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
>does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.
>
>Owner throws the switch, all works fine.
>
>The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
>controller PCB to the tune of $4000.
Hard to make the case after 4 weeks that _anything_ the electrician did had
anything to do with this. At four seconds, or even four minutes, I'd consider
it obvious. But four weeks went by, and the owner thinks the electrician
caused this? No way.
>
>Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the CNC's
>power supply were set for 220.
So what? Equipment designed for 220V should be able to handle 245V. It's not
the electrician's responsibility to open the CNC machine to see what it's set
for.
William Sommerwerck
1. Did the electrician have any control over the voltage when the system was
rewired?
2. Is it normal for electricians to measure the voltage, and "do something"
about it if it's not correct (if only reporting the problem to the
businessman)?
Geoffrey S. Mendelson
>
> Incorrect. Distribution voltages are on the order of a few thousand volts,
> stepped down by transformers at the point of service to a few hundred. New
> location = different transformer = possibly different service voltage even if
> the distribution voltages are exactly the same.
Yes, BUT, a power company attempts to keep a constant voltage throught their
service area. While the voltage fluctates due to equipment, load, etc, I don't
think you can honestly say that if it is 220 volts on one side of town, the
same "grid" produces 240 on the other side of town. It might be 242 in one
place and 239 in another, but even that's a big difference unless there is
a heavy load in one location and not another.
The EU spec allowing household line voltage to be 240 volts while claiming 230
was to allow the UK to keep their current system while being "in spec" but I
doubt it was intended to allow variations from as much as 220 in one place
and 240 in another within the same country.
Geoffrey S. Mendelson
>
> 1. Did the electrician have any control over the voltage when the system was
> rewired?
>
> 2. Is it normal for electricians to measure the voltage, and "do something"
> about it if it's not correct (if only reporting the problem to the
> businessman)?
You missed the point of the original post. The person who did the work was
NOT an electrician, they were a "handyman" hired to do the work.
Since the person never said where they were, it's hard to guess what the
rules are but in (almost?) every jurisdiction that licenses
electricians, a license is needed to do electrical work.
If an unlicensed person does electrical work, the work has to be inspected
by a licensed electrician before the power is turned on. If that was not the
case, there would be no point in licensing electricians, would there?
o...@uakron.edu
phase all the time, and I used to use the same units in theatrical
touring service until more modern solid state lasers dominated the
laser show industry. . From that perspective, I'm amazed at the
replies here that have failed to ask two simple questions. I will
state that I never met a house electrician who ever looked at the
rating plate on the gear, although I did have a few that asked about
phase sequences.
Two, I never met a house electrician who ever checked anything
hooked to the pigtail I gave him to connect, including "professional"
rental generator technicians (actually they were the worst) In the
theatrical business, it is up to the touring operator to check the
local guys work, and in most cases, we preferred they stand in a
corner and watch us, after your first blown passbank with 3 or 4 out
of 22 power transistors blown in the laser, you get the idea to check
the taps both preshow and under load condition. In one case I asked
for 220/3, went to lunch, and came out to find 380V European power
from the generator in my distro box, which is why the box had its
own"tagged out" disconnect switch. Its a rotary switch in big modern
generators, easy to mess up.
Questions:
One, Did the "electrician" hook straight to the machine's tappable
control transformers, or did he meet a simple junction box on the
side of the machine. If it were the later, I'd say he's off the
hook. On the other hand if he was staring at a tap strip , he should
have asked. There is also the possibility of a "cascade" of
transformers in some machines, ie little CTs all over the place in the
machine, that need tapped. ??????
Two, Did anybody bother to read the manual chapter on setup? Machine
shop gear needs leveled and "trammed" when moved, its not a simple
matter of tossing a CNC off the truck onto any old pad of concrete and
expecting good parts to tolerances, and the first paragraph usually
reads, something like "check settings" and have appropriate safety
gear. ??????
The fault occurred months down the road, a instant ":poof and shower
of sparks:" would point to the electrician, but months down the road
is lack of due diligence on the part of the owner.
John E.
>
> 1. Did the electrician have any control over the voltage when the system was
> rewired?
No.
> 2. Is it normal for electricians to measure the voltage, and "do something"
> about it if it's not correct (if only reporting the problem to the
> businessman)?
This is the basic question I'm asking. Is it common and regular practice to
inform the owner of a voltage as high as 245? And to suggest that he have
factory personnel come and look at each machine and examine PS taps and such?
And if he had hired a licensed electrician would the electrician likely had
informed the owner of the voltage difference?
--
John English
SteveB
"John E." <inco...@xbjcd.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW.C67598E2...@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
>I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.
>
> A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring (3-phase
> outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where he wanted
> them.
>
> He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but
> has
> done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
> does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.
>
> Owner throws the switch, all works fine.
>
> The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
> controller PCB to the tune of $4000.
>
> CNC's
> power supply were set for 220.
>
>
> of
> either of the players or their actions.
>
> Thanks.
> --
Well, that eliminates anything that I would have to add to the conversation.
Steve
William Sommerwerck
>> was rewired?
>> 2. Is it normal for electricians to measure the voltage, and "do
something"
>> about it if it's not correct (if only reporting the problem to the
>> businessman)?
> You missed the point of the original post. The person who did the work was
> NOT an electrician, they were a "handyman" hired to do the work.
I didn't miss the point (I think). He was doing the work of an electrician.
And whether or not he was a licensed electrician, he is still morally
responsible for the quality of his work. (Think Hamurabi.)
> Since the person never said where they were, it's hard to guess what the
> rules are but in (almost?) every jurisdiction that licenses
> electricians, a license is needed to do electrical work.
> If an unlicensed person does electrical work, the work has to be inspected
> by a licensed electrician before the power is turned on. If that was not
the
> case, there would be no point in licensing electricians, would there?
No, there wouldn't be. But if he botched the job, he has to be held
responsible. Doesn't he?
Of course, one might argue that if the person who hired him /knew/ he wasn't
an electrician, and didn't have the work inspected, then he (the hirer) is
responsible for whatever went wrong.
Bob Shuman
likely have been the same.
Bob
"John E." <inco...@xbjcd.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW.C67607F4...@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
Ignoramus20157
symptom described.
i
Geoffrey S. Mendelson
> This is the basic question I'm asking. Is it common and regular practice to
> inform the owner of a voltage as high as 245? And to suggest that he have
> factory personnel come and look at each machine and examine PS taps and such?
> And if he had hired a licensed electrician would the electrician likely had
> informed the owner of the voltage difference?
What you have not said is what was the voltage supposed to be?
Where? Common and regular practice as you call it varies from country to
country.
Also what was the actual voltage at the old location. If it was supposed to
be 240 volts then 245 is well within actual variations, or the calibration
of a meter.
If it was supposed to be 208 or 220 or 308, etc then it is too high.
This to me is starting to get tedious. A simple question of "who was at fault"
has become a "pissing contest" over who can make the most outrageous guess
as to why their champion is guilt free.
IMHO it really boils down to exactly what the owner of the business expected
when he hired "the guy". If he hired someone he knew was unlicensed, he
should have had the work inspected or hired a licensed electrician. Otherwise
he was taking a chance that he would never get caught cheating, and he lost.
As for the CNC device failing, his expectation of "the guy" to open it up
and adjust the voltage tapes is unreasonable. Again he took a chance that
he could move the device without hiring the proper technician to pack it up,
unpack it after arival and set it up. And again, he lost.
Considering the worst outcome of it would have been a fire destroying the
building, everything in it and killing all the people involved, a $4000
controller failure, which was probably not caused by the voltage problem
anyway, is a small price to pay for loosing.
As for insurance, no property insurance will cover damage due to illegal
repairs, etc, which includes uninspected work done by unlicensed electricians,
and no manufacturer will cover damage due to untrained technicians modifying
the equipment (even to move the voltage taps), or damage caused by over
voltage due to an unlicensed electrician wiring the equipment.
There may also be civil and criminal liability here, the best thing to do
IMHO is to have the company and "the guy" come to an agreement where they
will leave him alone, and eat the loss. They will then pay for any repairs
to the equipment and "the work" as legally mandated.
SteveB
"Ignoramus20157" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.20157.invalid> wrote in message
news:282dnV-elMqZXs3X...@giganews.com...
> 245 volts is only mildly on the high side and should not cause the
> symptom described.
>
> i
But iggy, we have to BLAME someone! The guy hires some unqualified person
to hook up used questionable machinery. The blame has to go somewhere. I
know where I'd direct it.
Steve
Martin Riddle
Sounds like the CNC tap was incorrectly selected. What were the other
options?
I know of ground problems with CNC's and Com cards that can cause the
same problem.
I believe it is something else, 245 is only 11% high, not a really big
issue.
Cheers
"Ignoramus20157" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.20157.invalid> wrote in message
news:282dnV-elMqZXs3X...@giganews.com...
Stuart Wheaton
> I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.
>
> A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring (3-phase
> outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where he wanted
> them.
>
> He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but has
> done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
> does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.
>
> Owner throws the switch, all works fine.
>
> The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
> controller PCB to the tune of $4000.
>
> Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the CNC's
> power supply were set for 220.
>
> What is the legal and moral responsibility of each party?
>
> What will not be helpful are replies about the character or intelligence of
> either of the players or their actions.
>
> Thanks.
4 weeks is a long time. Especially on a used piece of equipment that
has been subjected to the strains and jostling of a cross town move.
Can you prove that the incoming voltage was 245 when the "electrician"
was on site?
Were the field connections made by the "electrician" made to a terminal
strip or to the original tails? IOW, Did he see/know that there were
tap options?
If it took 4 weeks to fail in the new shop, do you know that the old
shop didn't also have an overvoltage situation? Maybe the failure was
75% along before the move.
One of the side effects of the slowdown in manufacturing demand is that
there does appear to be an upward creep of utility supplies, in our
shop, this spring our water pressure began to creep upward to the point
where the TP valves on both water heaters began to dribble. Our supply
voltage is a few volts higher too.
If the "electrician" feels like he did miss something, he probably owes
the owner a pro-rated share of the cost, but if he feels he did the job
within the scope of the work he was hired to do, the owner ought to foot
the bill. Whether the 'electrician' gets future work or references
might factor into this....
Rich.
case of taps like what happened here, the taps are supposed to be set by the
electrician to fall within the 10% range. With the taps set at 220v the CNC
machine was good to operate from 218v to 242v. As the power installer, it
was the electrician's responsibility to verify the voltage coming into the
building and adjust the taps on the machine accordingly. He was paid to
correctly hook up power to the machine and failed to do so.
"John E." <inco...@xbjcd.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW.C67598E2...@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
Jon Danniken
>
> The nominal utility power as supplied is supposed to be 240V. 5
> volts over is a touch hot, but not out of the bounds of normal
> tolerances - turn everything on in the neighborhood some hot August
> afternoon with the AC units cranked, and tell me what the voltage
> reads then...
>
> If they were seeing 250V - 255V or more, then I'd call the Utility
> and get the transformer taps knocked down a notch.
My drier sees 250VAC. Low voltage stuff in this house gets 125VAC.
Everything is working just fine.
Jon
Wes
>
>He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but has
>done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
>does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.
I'm going to translate this. Hires a guy that isn't a licensed electrician but does do
the job for less than the licensed guys with liability insurance.
Now your friend that was shopping for a free lunch now wants his evening meal paid for.
We don't know the voltage it was running at prior to the move, we don't know the
variability of the supply voltage where it is now.
The handyman wired it to the disconnect. Made sure there was power to that point.
Somewhere after that the machine was powered up. I'm going to assume for the sake of
argument that the handyman got the shop owner or the owners designee to do it. I don't
know any compenent electricans or for that matter decent handymen that will turn on a
complex piece of equipment on their own.
So the owner or designee that has the manuals and such for the machine and should be the
most knowledgeable person in the room is the one that is at fault.
Wes
Greg O
Perhaps you don't work with many electricians.
I work with electricians on a daily basis, and the large majority of them
can run the wire to the machine, outlet, light fixture, what ever, but few
of them have the ability to make sure it is 100% correct for the equipment
powered. I have seen 480 volts wired to 208, and the reverse, single phase
wired to 3 phase equipment, wrong rotation, (that had been verified correct
by the electrician!), electricians reversing rotation in the equipment so
some motors are correct, and some are reversed, you name it! That is where I
come in, to double check phasing, verify incoming voltage is correct for the
equipment, and to ensure the voltage taps in the equipment is set properly.
Unless discussed before hand I would not assume the electrician checked to
make sure the equipment was set up for the incoming power. Seems like the
owners responsibility to me!
Greg
Rich.
>> 2. Is it normal for electricians to measure the voltage, and "do
>> something"
>> about it if it's not correct (if only reporting the problem to the
>> businessman)?
>
> This is the basic question I'm asking. Is it common and regular practice
> to
> inform the owner of a voltage as high as 245? And to suggest that he have
> factory personnel come and look at each machine and examine PS taps and
> such?
> And if he had hired a licensed electrician would the electrician likely
> had
> informed the owner of the voltage difference?
> --
> John English
>
It is not regular practice to inform the owner, unless something is found to
be wrong. Having 245v in the building is not normal, and there is a lot of
equipment out there that does not have taps. Equipment without taps could be
damaged by this higher than usual voltage.
It is the responsibility of the electrician to make sure the equipment he is
wiring can correctly run on the power being supplied. IMO the electrician
did not do his job correctly.
William Sommerwerck
> Everything is working just fine.
<sniff> <sniff> Is that burning cotton I smell?
Greg O
news:cZ34m.21185$c82....@newsfe08.iad...
> Equipment is designed to operate +/- 10% of the nameplate rating. In the
> case of taps like what happened here, the taps are supposed to be set by
> the electrician to fall within the 10% range. With the taps set at 220v
> the CNC machine was good to operate from 218v to 242v. As the power
> installer, it was the electrician's responsibility to verify the voltage
> coming into the building and adjust the taps on the machine accordingly.
> He was paid to correctly hook up power to the machine and failed to do so.
>
Maybe, maybe not. My thoughts are the equipment was correctly wired, but not
set up properly. Was the electrician paid to do the equipment set up/start
up too? If not, it is the owners problem. The electrician could have easily
looked at the power ratings tag on the equipment and wired it as such. Any
adjustments internal to the machine are the responsibility of the person
that did the start up on the equipment, which in this case, my guess, was
not done.
I have been doing commercial HVAC service for 10 years and have yet to see
an electrician verify anything past the equipment ratings tag. Look at the
tag, shove the proper wires into the terminal block, and slam the door, we
are done, next! We come along afterwards and verify incoming voltage,
rotation, and set any voltage taps.
Greg
Jon Danniken
Drier has a temperature limiter, so although the slightly higher voltage
results in a slightly quicker "turn on" time for the elements, they still
are shut off at the same temperature regardless of incoming voltage.
Jon
Leo Lichtman
"Doug Miller" wrote: (clip) That said, though.... any device designed for
> 245V.
Years ago when household appliances ran on 110 volts, we had 220. Since
then, voltage from neutral to either side rose to about 120, and voltage
across both side rose to 240. For some reason we still talk about 220 as
though it were double 120. What I'm getting at is that systems are no
longer designed for 220--it's 240, so the discrepancy is only 5 volts, and
that's trivial.
I'm guessing that the failure was due to some totally different cause, not
an error in line voltage.
Doug Miller
>Doug Miller wrote:
>>
>> Incorrect. Distribution voltages are on the order of a few thousand volts,
>> stepped down by transformers at the point of service to a few hundred. New
>> location = different transformer = possibly different service voltage even if
>> the distribution voltages are exactly the same.
>
>Yes, BUT, a power company attempts to keep a constant voltage throught their
>service area. While the voltage fluctates due to equipment, load, etc, I don't
>think you can honestly say that if it is 220 volts on one side of town, the
>same "grid" produces 240 on the other side of town. It might be 242 in one
>place and 239 in another, but even that's a big difference unless there is
>a heavy load in one location and not another.
You're missing the point. This has nothing to do with the voltage supplied
by the utility. The utility doesn't supply 220V or 240V or whatever. They
supply (for example) 4KV. A transformer at the point of service reduces that
to 220V, or 240V, or whatever. Different transformers connected to the *same*
4KV primary voltage could easily produce different secondary voltages.
Doug Miller
Assuming a nominal 240VAC supply, 245V is in no way "not correct" -- it's only
about a 2% overvoltage.
Doug Miller
>>> 1. Did the electrician have any control over the voltage when the system
>>> was rewired?
>
>>> 2. Is it normal for electricians to measure the voltage, and "do
>something"
>>> about it if it's not correct (if only reporting the problem to the
>>> businessman)?
>
>> You missed the point of the original post. The person who did the work was
>> NOT an electrician, they were a "handyman" hired to do the work.
>
>I didn't miss the point (I think). He was doing the work of an electrician.
>And whether or not he was a licensed electrician, he is still morally
>responsible for the quality of his work. (Think Hamurabi.)
Actually, you *are* missing the important point, which is that it's
_not_his_fault_:
1) 245VAC is *not* a problem in a nominal 240VAC supply.
2) If the equipment is actually labelled 220V, and not 240V, it's *old*.
3) Equipment designed for 220VAC normally operates just fine on 240VAC.
4) If the wiring, or the voltage, were in any way to blame, the failure almost
certainly would have occurred long before it did. Four weeks after the fact, I
can't see how that could be laid at the feet of the guy that did the wiring,
licensed or not.
MooseFET
> On Jul 5, 4:40 pm, John E. <incogn...@xbjcd.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.
>
> > A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring (3-phase
> > outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where he wanted
> > them.
>
> > done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
>
> > Owner throws the switch, all works fine.
>
> > The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
> > controller PCB to the tune of $4000.
>
> > Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the CNC's
> > power supply were set for 220.
>
>
> > What will not be helpful are replies about the character or intelligence of
> > either of the players or their actions.
>
> > Thanks.
> > John English
>
> Tempting as it is to blame your Mr Bush for all the eveils of the
> world, including my hens not laying, I would propose the following:
> 1.As noted, the main supply voltage is nominal, variations are normal
> and to be expected.
Any reasonable design for the power supply should have defended the
controller board even if the voltage was further out of bounds than
the poster suggested.
That said: I don't think we can blame Bush for this because it didn't
burn down the whole shop in the process.
> 2.Possibly, if the machine was let stand for a while in the unpowered
> position, and it was an old controller (and with a linear power
> supply, it probably was,) then the electrolytics in the power supply
> could have failed due high ESR, and then it lost regulation and fried
> the board.
The capacitors could have also failed in the leaky and then exploding
manner. Having them suddenly go open as they flung their guts all
over the insides could have been the cause.
That said: I don't think we can blame Bush for this because it was
Hillary that swapped all the "N" and "Q" keys on the key boards in the
Whitehouse so it was likely her fault.
> 3.My humble opinion is to just mark write it off to bad luck.
> Otherwise, get the lawyers involved for years and huge amounts of
> money......
>
> Andrew VK3BFA
RoyJ
>
> Assuming a nominal 240VAC supply, 245V is in no way "not correct" -- it's only
> about a 2% overvoltage.
And since there is likely no load in shop when the install was taking
place, the 245 would be a higher than normal reading.
But I question the use of "3phase" and "245 volts" in the OP question.
Around here, 245 volts would be perfectly normal for a single phase
circuit, very high for a "standard" 208/3 phase delta.
Doug Miller
>It is not regular practice to inform the owner, unless something is found to
>be wrong. Having 245v in the building is not normal, and there is a lot of
>equipment out there that does not have taps. Equipment without taps could be
>damaged by this higher than usual voltage.
Nonsense. 245V = 240V + 2%. That's just not a big deal -- as long as it's a
nominal 240V supply. If the nominal supply is 208V, then yes, that's a huge
problem. But you have no idea what the supply in the building is supposed to
be, so you have no basis for saying that it's "not normal".
>
>It is the responsibility of the electrician to make sure the equipment he is
>wiring can correctly run on the power being supplied.
No, it's not, unless there's a contract specifically requiring him to do so.
The electrician's responsibility is to install the circuits specified by the
person who hired him. The one who owns the equipment is responsible for
preparing the specs.
> IMO the electrician
>did not do his job correctly.
In what way?
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
>
>A CNC machine is something different than a light bulb. Few
>electricians know more than how to connect a light bulb and outlets.
>Besides, the story doesn't tell whether the machine has a permanent
>mains connection or is connected by a cord.
I know of zero CNC machines that operate from a line cord.
Doug Miller
OTOH, why would the machine be set up for 220V as described, if intended to be
connected to a 208V supply?
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
>Perhaps you don't work with many electricians.
>I work with electricians on a daily basis, and the large majority of them
>can run the wire to the machine, outlet, light fixture, what ever, but few
>of them have the ability to make sure it is 100% correct for the equipment
>powered.
Which makes ALL of them a mere order taker, point to point wireman.
This was not such an installation. If new runs had to be installed,
then the installer, if only a mere electrician, is already in over his
head if he doesn't know about the equipment to be fed power to.
Doug Miller
>Equipment is designed to operate +/- 10% of the nameplate rating. In the
>case of taps like what happened here, the taps are supposed to be set by the
>electrician to fall within the 10% range. With the taps set at 220v the CNC
>machine was good to operate from 218v to 242v. As the power installer, it
>was the electrician's responsibility to verify the voltage coming into the
>building
Yes.
>and adjust the taps on the machine accordingly.
No, or maybe. You're making an assumption unjustified by the facts presented.
>He was paid to
>correctly hook up power to the machine and failed to do so.
As described by the OP, he was paid to hook up power to outlets. Verifying
that the machine was set for the correct voltage is outside the scope of the
electrician's responsibility as described in the original post.
John R. Carroll
"Doug Miller" <spam...@milmac.com> wrote in message
news:Ma54m.1908$cl4....@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com...
Because CNC controls are designed to run at 220V plus Zero/minus 5%.
They love straight 208 three phase power because of the balance. You can
usually just change control paremeters without fiddling with the
transformers.
Anyway, this shop owner did it so it's his job now to step in it.
JC
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
wrote:
>In article <0001HW.C67598E2...@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>, inco...@xbjcd.com wrote:
>>I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.
>>
>>A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring (3-phase
>>outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where he wanted
>>them.
>>
>>He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but has
>>done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
>>does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.
>>
>>Owner throws the switch, all works fine.
>>
>>The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
>>controller PCB to the tune of $4000.
>
>Hard to make the case after 4 weeks that _anything_ the electrician did had
>anything to do with this. At four seconds, or even four minutes, I'd consider
>it obvious. But four weeks went by, and the owner thinks the electrician
>caused this? No way.
>>
>>Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the CNC's
>>power supply were set for 220.
>
>So what? Equipment designed for 220V should be able to handle 245V. It's not
>the electrician's responsibility to open the CNC machine to see what it's set
>for.
If it were wired to an outlet, I would agree.
A hard wired machine power run, however, should also include insuring
that the machine you are hooking up is at least set properly for the
voltage you are going to be bringing live on it. As you will have the
panel for it open, you should make yourself aware of any voltage taps, so
that you don't hook up say a 5% under voltage tap to a 5% or more
overvoltage feed.
Any electrician that is a mere, dumb, brain dead wire terminator should
be looking toward an industry where his mistakes have less of a
catastrophic downside. If you do not take the time to at least examine
what you are hooking up, you have no business in the industry.
Geoffrey S. Mendelson
> You're missing the point. This has nothing to do with the voltage supplied
> by the utility. The utility doesn't supply 220V or 240V or whatever. They
> supply (for example) 4KV. A transformer at the point of service reduces that
> to 220V, or 240V, or whatever. Different transformers connected to the *same*
> 4KV primary voltage could easily produce different secondary voltages.
No, I'm not. When I lived in the US, (PECO) the electric company sold
me 240 volt 2 phase electricity. It was nominaly 127 volts, but often
dropped down during times of high usage.
They did not supply or sell me 4kv volts, or anything else.
Here it's even simpler. Israel electric sells me 230 volts, 50Hz electicity
and except for just before the power going out it has been that way for 12
years. When I had a UPS monitoring the voltage, it was never more than
1 volt +- spec.
Ok, since you insist would anyone out there who gets 4kv from their local
electric company please raise your hand.
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
>
> Two, I never met a house electrician
CNC machines are NOT 'house electrician' level work.
Where did you get the idea that this was a 'house installation'?
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
wrote:
>In article <Wg44m.10923$8P7....@newsfe21.iad>, "Rich." <rc...@XXcomcast.net> wrote:
220 to 245 is an 11.4% difference.
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
>
>>
>> Assuming a nominal 240VAC supply, 245V is in no way "not correct" -- it's only
>> about a 2% overvoltage.
>
>And since there is likely no load in shop when the install was taking
>place, the 245 would be a higher than normal reading.
You're nuts. Maybe at the end of a 100 yard long run. Maybe.
There is no reason, however, for the entire feed to a building to sag
that far between loaded and unloaded.
William Sommerwerck
news:7bc2n5F...@mid.individual.net...
> William Sommerwerck wrote:
>>> My drier sees 250VAC. Low voltage stuff in this house gets 125VAC.
>>> Everything is working just fine.
>> <sniff> <sniff> Is that burning cotton I smell?
> Drier has a temperature limiter,
It's called a thermostat
> so although the slightly higher voltage
> results in a slightly quicker "turn on" time for the elements, they still
> are shut off at the same temperature regardless of incoming voltage.
Of course. I was jesting.
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
>
>Maybe, maybe not. My thoughts are the equipment was correctly wired, but not
>set up properly.
I cannot believe the remarks made by some in Usenet.
Contradict yourself within a single sentence often, idiot?
John Larkin
<spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
>On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 23:40:18 -0700, the renowned John E.
><inco...@xbjcd.com> wrote:
>
>>I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.
>>
>>A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring (3-phase
>>outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where he wanted
>>them.
>>
>>He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but has
>>done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
>>does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.
>>
>>Owner throws the switch, all works fine.
>>
>>The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
>>controller PCB to the tune of $4000.
>>
>>Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the CNC's
>>power supply were set for 220.
>>
>>What is the legal and moral responsibility of each party?
>>
>>What will not be helpful are replies about the character or intelligence of
>>either of the players or their actions.
>>
>>Thanks.
>
>IMO, 11% high voltage over nominal should not "fry" the controller
>board in the first place.
>
>
Yes. The controller was overly fragile, or it may have just had a
random failure unrelated to supply voltage. That happens.
If the owner blames the electrician, don't use him again. Sue the
power company for providing 245.
John
krw
<g...@mendelson.com> wrote:
>Doug Miller wrote:
>> You're missing the point. This has nothing to do with the voltage supplied
>> by the utility. The utility doesn't supply 220V or 240V or whatever. They
>> supply (for example) 4KV. A transformer at the point of service reduces that
>> to 220V, or 240V, or whatever. Different transformers connected to the *same*
>> 4KV primary voltage could easily produce different secondary voltages.
>
>No, I'm not. When I lived in the US, (PECO) the electric company sold
>me 240 volt 2 phase electricity. It was nominaly 127 volts, but often
>dropped down during times of high usage.
240V isn't "two phase", rather single phase, or otherwise known as
"split phase". ...and it had better not be 127V (maybe twice that).
>They did not supply or sell me 4kv volts, or anything else.
They supplied that to the pole. Please read.
>Here it's even simpler. Israel electric sells me 230 volts, 50Hz electicity
>and except for just before the power going out it has been that way for 12
>years. When I had a UPS monitoring the voltage, it was never more than
>1 volt +- spec.
Lots of good that does after the power goes out.
>Ok, since you insist would anyone out there who gets 4kv from their local
>electric company please raise your hand.
All of us who can read.
krw
220V service doesn't exist, DimBulb.
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
>I have been doing commercial HVAC service for 10 years and have yet to see
>an electrician verify anything past the equipment ratings tag. Look at the
>tag,
I doubt that HVAC systems have the complexity at the access panel that a
multi-phased CNC machine would have.
AC systems have what three tap selections for voltage offset? Oh wait,
you are the idiot that says they don't read past the panel tag.
Regardless, people. If you are hooking up a high power requisite
device (machine), and it contains multiple power taps for VOLTAGE
SELECTION on its termination panel, then the person doing the hooking up
is responsible to make sure that he hooked up the right wire to the right
terminal. If he does not have the experience in the industry to perform
that task, he has no business claiming to be an electrician.
PERIOD!
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
>John E. <inco...@xbjcd.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but has
>>done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
>>does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.
>
>
>I'm going to translate this. Hires a guy that isn't a licensed electrician but does do
>the job for less than the licensed guys with liability insurance.
>
>Now your friend that was shopping for a free lunch now wants his evening meal paid for.
>
>We don't know the voltage it was running at prior to the move, we don't know the
>variability of the supply voltage where it is now.
>
>The handyman wired it to the disconnect. Made sure there was power to that point.
>
>Somewhere after that the machine was powered up. I'm going to assume for the sake of
>argument that the handyman got the shop owner or the owners designee to do it. I don't
>know any compenent electricans or for that matter decent handymen that will turn on a
>complex piece of equipment on their own.
>
>So the owner or designee that has the manuals and such for the machine and should be the
>most knowledgeable person in the room is the one that is at fault.
>
>Wes
You're an idiot. That is like saying that if you hire an electrician
to run 245Volts to your 120 volt microwave oven, he'll do it, and will
not be at fault for doing something against the rules.
High power devices should never, repeat NEVER be hooked up merely "to
the disconnect". It should ALWAYS be examined for its POWER panel
connections to insure against improper attachment. PERIOD!
Goddamned cross posting retards! < reference to the OP.
John R. Carroll
"Wes" <clu...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:R644m.329994$6p1.3...@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com...
Hey Wes.
If you open up one of your older Fanucs you will see a tag somewhere that
says 200V AC.
That is the design spec.
JC
Plain...@yahoo.com
wrote:
>I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.
>
>A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring (3-phase
>outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where he wanted
>them.
>
>He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but has
>done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
>does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.
>
>Owner throws the switch, all works fine.
>
>The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
>controller PCB to the tune of $4000.
>
>Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the CNC's
>power supply were set for 220.
>
>What is the legal and moral responsibility of each party?
>
>What will not be helpful are replies about the character or intelligence of
>either of the players or their actions.
>
>Thanks.
First of all, 245 VAC is a common AC voltage in the US. Yes, I know
we say 110 / 220, but it is more like 120 / 240.
Second, what was the 'handyman' hired to do? If he wired a number of
1 and 3 phace 110 / 220 volt outlets, he has no liability. If he
hard-wired (ran conduit directly to) the equipment, it is open to
discussion. If he adjusted wiring taps, etc than he MAY be
responsible.
However, every controller I have ever seen uses a regulated power
supply. Decades ago my employer built them. We tested the supplies
at full load while varying input voltage from 20% below nominal to 20%
above nominal voltage (90 - 130 VAC). If the equipment operated for 4
weeks, I would say the 'handyman' is not responsible.
PlainBill
Larry The Snake Guy
to OP to answer.
1) Did the "wiring guy" hook up the equipment or just run wiring to
the locations where it was to go? And if he hooked up the equipment,
did this require opening it or did the owner just tell him to connect
cables that were already attached to the machines.
2) What were the agreed upon responsibilities of the "guy"? I assume
the owner hired him to save money, so he might be expected to do as
little as necessary to set things up, unless something more was agreed
upon. Asking what a licensed electrician would normally do might not
really be relevant...
Also, don't forget that in most places if the owner knew he hired an
unlicensed person, he (the owner) is probably liable for fines,
permits (possibly at doube the price) and at least having all this
work gone over by a real electrician if the authorities find out. If
it's anything like residential work, they might even force him to pay
a licensed electrician to rip it all out and redo it. I'd consider
that before raising a stink.
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
<g...@mendelson.com> wrote:
>Ok, since you insist would anyone out there who gets 4kv from their local
>electric company please raise your hand.
>
>Geoff.
You're a semantical twit.
It was obvious to me what he was referring to.
Distribution feeds.
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
Read the post,idiot. If there are no 220 volt service provisions, why
are there "220 volt taps" on equipment?
AND if there IS such a tap, then the electrician feeding it MUST
examine what tap is being fed. PERIOD.
Rich.
> In article <h2qf18$8mn$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, "William
> Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> 1) 245VAC is *not* a problem in a nominal 240VAC supply.
That is correct until you factor in that the taps were set to 220v. If the
taps were set at 240, then 245v would never have been a problem.
rangerssuck
> On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 23:40:18 -0700, John E. <incogn...@xbjcd.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.
>
> >A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring (3-phase
> >outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where he wanted
> >them.
>
> >He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but has
> >done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
> >does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.
>
> >Owner throws the switch, all works fine.
>
> >The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
> >controller PCB to the tune of $4000.
>
> >Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the CNC's
> >power supply were set for 220.
>
> >What is the legal and moral responsibility of each party?
>
> >What will not be helpful are replies about the character or intelligence of
> >either of the players or their actions.
>
> >Thanks.
>
> First of all, 245 VAC is a common AC voltage in the US. Yes, I know
> we say 110 / 220, but it is more like 120 / 240.
>
> Second, what was the 'handyman' hired to do? If he wired a number of
> 1 and 3 phace 110 / 220 volt outlets, he has no liability. If he
> hard-wired (ran conduit directly to) the equipment, it is open to
> discussion. If he adjusted wiring taps, etc than he MAY be
> responsible.
Just to muddy it up even further, we recently put a medical device
through CE approval and were advised by the examiner that our label
should read "110/240", and that's the label we passed with.
>
> However, every controller I have ever seen uses a regulated power
> supply. Decades ago my employer built them. We tested the supplies
> at full load while varying input voltage from 20% below nominal to 20%
> above nominal voltage (90 - 130 VAC). If the equipment operated for 4
> weeks, I would say the 'handyman' is not responsible.
Fully agreed.
>
> PlainBill
Tom Horne
> > Assuming a nominal 240VAC supply, 245V is in no way "not correct" -- it's only
> > about a 2% overvoltage.
>
> And since there is likely no load in shop when the install was taking
> place, the 245 would be a higher than normal reading.
>
> Around here, 245 volts would be perfectly normal for a single phase
> circuit, very high for a "standard" 208/3 phase delta.
Roy
Three phase delta would not produce 208 volts unless it was a customer
provided special purpose transformer. Three Phase Delta can be wired
as corner grounded, grounded center tap in one phase with the opposite
phase being the odd higher voltage to ground known as the wild leg or
stinger, or completely ungrounded with or without ground fault
detection. The way you end up with three phase 208 is to wire the
transformer in a wye or star configuration with the transformer
primary taps set to produce 120 volts to ground on each of the three
secondary legs.
--
Tom Horne
daestrom
> On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:29:04 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
> <g...@mendelson.com> wrote:
>
>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>> You're missing the point. This has nothing to do with the voltage supplied
>>> by the utility. The utility doesn't supply 220V or 240V or whatever. They
>>> supply (for example) 4KV. A transformer at the point of service reduces that
>>> to 220V, or 240V, or whatever. Different transformers connected to the *same*
>>> 4KV primary voltage could easily produce different secondary voltages.
>> No, I'm not. When I lived in the US, (PECO) the electric company sold
>> me 240 volt 2 phase electricity. It was nominaly 127 volts, but often
>> dropped down during times of high usage.
>
> 240V isn't "two phase", rather single phase, or otherwise known as
> "split phase". ...and it had better not be 127V (maybe twice that).
>
>> They did not supply or sell me 4kv volts, or anything else.
>
> They supplied that to the pole. Please read.
>
What they carry on the pole is immaterial. What they supply to the
customer service entrance is the 'point of sale'.
Very few homes or light commercial service is in the 4kV range in the
US. The service entrance voltage is usually much lower, 240 or 480. In
these cases, the step-down transformer used to convert from distribution
voltage (e.g. 4kV) to the service entrance voltage is the utility's
responsibility.
The utility is responsible for supplying the voltage/frequency at the
service entrance / metering point of sale, not 'the pole'.
daestrom
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
<range...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Just to muddy it up even further, we recently put a medical device
>through CE approval and were advised by the examiner that our label
>should read "110/240", and that's the label we passed with.
CE? I am surprised that they did not want it to read "95 - 265 VAC"
That is what most CE equipment works at.
It makes a product that barely works in Japan's 90V realm, and then
only on some products.
I had to do a redesign to insure that a production printer (supply)would
be marketable/functional in Japanese geographical/voltage markets.
krw
wrote:
>krw wrote:
>> On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:29:04 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
>> <g...@mendelson.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>>> You're missing the point. This has nothing to do with the voltage supplied
>>>> by the utility. The utility doesn't supply 220V or 240V or whatever. They
>>>> supply (for example) 4KV. A transformer at the point of service reduces that
>>>> to 220V, or 240V, or whatever. Different transformers connected to the *same*
>>>> 4KV primary voltage could easily produce different secondary voltages.
>>> No, I'm not. When I lived in the US, (PECO) the electric company sold
>>> me 240 volt 2 phase electricity. It was nominaly 127 volts, but often
>>> dropped down during times of high usage.
>>
>> 240V isn't "two phase", rather single phase, or otherwise known as
>> "split phase". ...and it had better not be 127V (maybe twice that).
>>
>>> They did not supply or sell me 4kv volts, or anything else.
>>
>> They supplied that to the pole. Please read.
>>
>
>What they carry on the pole is immaterial. What they supply to the
>customer service entrance is the 'point of sale'.
It is material to what the OP wrote. It may be immaterial to the
facts of the case, but it *is* what was written.
>Very few homes or light commercial service is in the 4kV range in the
>US. The service entrance voltage is usually much lower, 240 or 480. In
>these cases, the step-down transformer used to convert from distribution
>voltage (e.g. 4kV) to the service entrance voltage is the utility's
>responsibility.
That may be, but that wasn't what was written. The step down
transformer was part of the post too.
>The utility is responsible for supplying the voltage/frequency at the
>service entrance / metering point of sale, not 'the pole'.
Irrelevant to what was written and objections to same.
krw
<Zarat...@thusspoke.org> wrote:
Irrelevant to the real world, DimBulb. 220V is so 1950s.
> AND if there IS such a tap, then the electrician feeding it MUST
>examine what tap is being fed. PERIOD.
Different issue, AlwaysWrong.
Esther & Fester Bestertester
The standard USENET rule applies:
THEN DON'T RESPOND.
whit3rd
> >Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the CNC's
> >power supply were set for 220.
>
> So what? Equipment designed for 220V should be able to handle 245V. It's not
> the electrician's responsibility to open the CNC machine to see what it's set
> for.
Absolutely correct. The CNC controller burned up, BUT the line
voltage
is no smoking gun, you have NO reason to believe that was the cause.
Overvoltage would usually result in relatively simple, inexpensive
faults (fuses blowing), or at most a power supply failure (figure
$300 for that kind of part, no WAY it's $4000).
Manufacturer of the controller should be replacing it under warranty.
And, there should be an install procedure to determine tap placement:
who
did the install? Wiring an outlet for the equipment does NOT make
the electrician responsible for install procedure, nor for installed
equipment.
Michael A. Terrell
Then blame the idiot who configured it for 220, which hasn't been the
specification in decades. It wasn't you, was it?
--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!
Michael A. Terrell
Has anyone ever seen a 1950s CNC machine?
> > AND if there IS such a tap, then the electrician feeding it MUST
> >examine what tap is being fed. PERIOD.
>
> Different issue, AlwaysWrong.
ehsjr
> I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.
BZZZT! Danger Will Robinson!
Before offering your opinion, examine what *you* stand to
gain/lose.
The "sensitive situation" could be a bucket of rattlesnakes,
and your participation might direct some of those snakes
your way.
Someone is looking at you as the "expert" whose opinion
carries weight in his/her mind. Your opinion is bound
to be used to bolster the argument of whichever side
asked you: "Well John said ... "
That bolstering could get you in trouble with the other
person - and it is likely or possible that whatever you
say will be misquoted.
Taking sides in a "sensitive situation" is fraught with
danger.
The next issue is that you are not sure enough of your
opinion to voice it without seeing what people here
think. Or, if you have already voiced it, you have
enough doubt to seek other's viewpoints here. Either
way, it highlights the problem(s) that sensitive
situations create.
If, for the moment, we take the possible danger to you
out of the equation and just look at the situation:
Who can tell? Does anyone replying to the post have
all of pertinent the facts? We don't know the details
of the agreement between the handyman and the shop
owner, whether there was any specific discussion concerning
the CNC machine, what claims the handyman made as to his
experience or expertise, any applicable laws in the location
the work was done, whether/if/when the power utility changed
things and on and on. People could reply with 100% valid
opinions that might not apply to the specific situation.
So, while there may be a clear legal and moral responsibility
for each party, it is impossible for us to to know what it is
at this point.
Ed
>
> A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring (3-phase
> outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where he wanted
> them.
>
> He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but has
> done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
> does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.
>
> Owner throws the switch, all works fine.
>
> The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
> controller PCB to the tune of $4000.
>
> Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the CNC's
> power supply were set for 220.
>
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>
>You're missing the point. This has nothing to do with the voltage supplied
>by the utility. The utility doesn't supply 220V or 240V or whatever. They
>supply (for example) 4KV. A transformer at the point of service reduces that
>to 220V, or 240V, or whatever. Different transformers connected to the *same*
>4KV primary voltage could easily produce different secondary voltages.
Indeed it does.
My single phase home 220 volt service runs between 245-252 volts
Pacific Greed and Extortion claims that is nominal and within spec for
home wiring.
Fortunately..most of my gear runs fine on this, with the exception of
the VFD on my Gorton mill. At times, it shows an over voltage alarm and
refuses to run until the voltage drops back down to under 246.
Ive called this to the attention of the local PG&E wanks..and they
simply shrug, send someone out to measure the voltage, confirm that
indeed its 252, blither a bit and then leave.
gunner
"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"
Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno
Gunner Asch
<Zarat...@thusspoke.org> wrote:
>On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 08:34:43 GMT, ni...@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) wrote:
>
>>
>>Nonsense. If you hire a 'pro' chances are they make even more
>>mistakes. In this case the owner is to blame. He should have hired
>>someone from the company that sells the CNC machines to connect them
>>properly to the mains.
>
> If a proper electrician does not know how to hook up a machine, he is
>not a proper electrician.
>
> Pro work is usually insured.
Im not. Nor am I licensed. Yet I do the electrical work for many
clients. And my business cards indicate that Im neither.
It has to do with how good you are, and that they know it.
>
> That makes you wrong on both counts.
Gunner Asch
<Zarat...@thusspoke.org> wrote:
>On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 12:28:50 GMT, ni...@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) wrote:
>
>>
>>A CNC machine is something different than a light bulb. Few
>>electricians know more than how to connect a light bulb and outlets.
>>Besides, the story doesn't tell whether the machine has a permanent
>>mains connection or is connected by a cord.
>
> I know of zero CNC machines that operate from a line cord.
Then you have been in few CNC shops west of the Mississippie.
Gunner
Gunner Asch
<g...@mendelson.com> wrote:
>
>You missed the point of the original post. The person who did the work was
>NOT an electrician, they were a "handyman" hired to do the work.
We must ask you at this point...what is your definition of an
electrician.
If the same person gets a license, does that automatically make him no
longer a handyman, but an electrician?
Gunner Asch
>It is not regular practice to inform the owner, unless something is found to
>be wrong. Having 245v in the building is not normal
Its VERY normal in California..at least in the LA area.
Gunner Asch
<Zarat...@thusspoke.org> wrote:
>On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 11:27:07 -0500, "Greg O" <goo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Maybe, maybe not. My thoughts are the equipment was correctly wired, but not
>>set up properly.
>
>
> I cannot believe the remarks made by some in Usenet.
>
> Contradict yourself within a single sentence often, idiot?
actually...from a Real World point of view..Greg makes a lot of sense.
Gunner
John R. Carroll
"Gunner Asch" <gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote in message
news:2c4255llu752cugj3...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 12:11:31 -0400, "Rich." <rc...@XXcomcast.net> wrote:
>
>>It is not regular practice to inform the owner, unless something is found
>>to
>>be wrong. Having 245v in the building is not normal
>
>
> Its VERY normal in California..at least in the LA area.
These service voltages are relics from the 50's/early sixties, not normal.
The standard three phase service in LA county is 208VAC - by agreement and
law.
Primary power customers have a choice of one other supply voltage AFAIK and
it isn't 240.
Where do you get this stuff from?
JC
Geoffrey S. Mendelson
> We must ask you at this point...what is your definition of an
> electrician.
Someone who has a license, (and/or) is a member of the union, passed a
test that entitles him to call himself an electrician.
But not someone with no formal training, licensure or certification.
Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel g...@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM
lang...@fonz.dk
wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 23:40:18 -0700, the renowned John E.
>
>
>
> <incogn...@xbjcd.com> wrote:
> >I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.
>
> >outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where he wanted
> >them.
>
> >He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but has
> >done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
> >does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.
>
> >Owner throws the switch, all works fine.
>
> >The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
> >controller PCB to the tune of $4000.
>
> >Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the CNC's
> >power supply were set for 220.
>
> >What is the legal and moral responsibility of each party?
>
> >What will not be helpful are replies about the character or intelligence of
> >either of the players or their actions.
>
> >Thanks.
>
> board in the first place.
>
a loose neutral can result in all kinds of strange voltages depending
on the load on the
phases, so the 11% might just be what the voltage was when it was
measured, not what
it was when the controller was fried
-Lasse
rangerssuck
Note: That was a slash, not a dash. This was not a "universal input",
it was a dual-voltage device, with a 2:1 switchable primary. I was
surprised that they didn't want 110/220 or 120/240 or 115/230. Nope,
they insisted on 110/240. Go figure.
john
> I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.
>
> A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring (3-phase
> outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where he wanted
> them.
>
> He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but has
> done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
> does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.
>
> Owner throws the switch, all works fine.
>
> The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
> controller PCB to the tune of $4000.
>
> Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the CNC's
> power supply were set for 220.
>
> What is the legal and moral responsibility of each party?
>
> What will not be helpful are replies about the character or intelligence of
> either of the players or their actions.
>
> Thanks.
The failure that you had was probably caused by your rigger not using an
airride trailer to move the equipment and something got shaken up. Four
weeks of running proves the voltage was not the problem. Some
disgruntled employee probably pissed in the cabinet.
245 volts is within the normal specs from the utility. AS far as
changing the tap, you should have called in a machine tech to set it up.
An electrician wires only to the safety disconnect switch in the
machine, after that it is your responsibility to call in a machine setup
tech.
John
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
>Irrelevant to the real world, DimBulb. 220V is so 1950s.
Yet the taps are still made available on equipment, you idiot. That is
also what may have caused to over-voltage condition, IDIOT. Improper tap
selection does cause failure modes.
You are so 'never was'.
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
>> AND if there IS such a tap, then the electrician feeding it MUST
>>examine what tap is being fed. PERIOD.
>
>Different issue, AlwaysWrong.
No. It is precisely the issue in this case, you idiot.
Archimedes' Lever
Yes and start out by NOT cross posting horseshit questions into several
groups.
That is a retarded nym, but somehow the stupidity of it does fit you.
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
wrote:
>Manufacturer of the controller should be replacing it under warranty.
Do you even know how old the machine is? Doh!
Archimedes' Lever
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Then blame the idiot who configured it for 220, which hasn't been the
>specification in decades. It wasn't you, was it?
Then WHY are machine designers and manufacturers STILL placing the taps
on feed panels?
You have all the common sense of a fucking shitfly.
Gunner Asch
<g...@mendelson.com> wrote:
>Gunner Asch wrote:
>
>> We must ask you at this point...what is your definition of an
>> electrician.
>
>Someone who has a license, (and/or) is a member of the union, passed a
>test that entitles him to call himself an electrician.
>
>But not someone with no formal training, licensure or certification.
>
>Geoff.
So then what am I? I passed the tests, at one time held a (California)
C7 and C10 license, ( as responsible managing employee for a large
company who before me had NO liceneses), have worked for the past 12 yrs
as a machine shop electrician (with no failures to date), CNC repair
tech and so forth.
However..Ive refused to belong to any union since 1974, when my 6 week
stint as a UAW worker left me cold about unions.
Am I just a "handyman" because I dont belong to a union <spit>?
My business cards indicate that I do electrical (non licensed) as well
as CNC and Machine Tool Repair.
So am I simply a "handyman"?
Inquiring minds really want to know.