Oscilloscope Shopping on a $2000.00 Budget
D from BC
I have a $2000.00CAD (including expenses) budget for a new or used
oscilloscope.
I tend to do smps and uC projects.
Any suggests of what to look for?
I've been browsing Ebay.
I've been looking at Tek scopes from the 90's.
A Tek 2465 for $66 bucks ..that's scary.... :O
D from BC
John Larkin
wrote:
Get a color digital scope, TDS2012 or maybe the low-end Agilent. For
capturing transients, or scoping a uP bus, they're miles ahead of any
analog scope. Much smaller and lighter, too.
John
Gibbo
That's rather odd. Most people come here asking for advice on a scope
with a budget of 100 bucks or so which is a bit limited.
2 thousand bucks leaves you wide open. Within reason you can have more
or less whatever you fancy.
A quick ebay look found about 3 or 4 of just about anything you want
depending where your interests lie.
Wprk out what you want, then go to ebay. Avoid names you never heard of.
Simple rule really.
--
Gibbo
In accordance with our company policy of minimum environmental impact
this post was made entirely with the 100% recycled electron.
Joerg
> I want a scope for Christmas :)
> I have a $2000.00CAD (including expenses) budget for a new or used
> oscilloscope.
> I tend to do smps and uC projects.
>
Very different ballgames. SMPS mostly needs a good analog scope, uC
needs digital storage.
> Any suggests of what to look for?
>
> I've been browsing Ebay.
> I've been looking at Tek scopes from the 90's.
> A Tek 2465 for $66 bucks ..that's scary.... :O
>
That's a good deal but it's probably very tired even if it works.
Usually they go for around $300-$500 US. But be prepared that the knobs
fall apart. Last time the delay trigger clutch fell apart on me, major
dismantling required. But worth it. These were IMHO among the best
mainstream scopes Tek ever made. Unlike the TDS series from which I
personally stay away after some nasty noise issues. Plus they've got no
memory to speak of. 2.5K, pathetic. They should hire some of their
retirees back, they know how it's done.
I bought a GW-Instek GDS-2204 a few months ago. So far very happy with
it. Plus it got ten times the memory depth of the more expensive TDS,
25K. Heck, even HP only had 4K. Bought it from Farnell UK via Newark,
IIRC a tad over $1600 with customs, shipping and taxes. I could look it
up if needed.
Probably the best for both worlds would be the Hameg Combo-Scope HM2008.
Has a real CRT and I think a whopping megabyte of memory. However, it'll
be somewhat above your budget now because the Euro is so high.
Some scopes have a small logic analyzer with eight or so probes built
in. Very handy if you have to debug an extended SPI and stuff like that.
I do that with the four channels and a dousing rod, or a real logic
analyzer but mine is too heavy to carry to clients.
--
Regards, Joerg
D from BC
I checked out the demo on the Tek site..
Colorrrr....(drooling like Homer with donuts.. :P.... )
Lifetime warranty. ohhhh I'm checking the fine print on that..
Certainly eliminates worrying about dubious Ebay scopes.
Low shipping weight for low shipping charges...cool
$1690CAN nice...100Mhz 2Ch.... ehhh..good enough...
But how does it compair to Rigol color digital scopes??
I'm currently doing some reading on the Rigol scopes..
Found a price on
http://www.testsolu.com/html/product_detail.php?pid=19307
$870.00US...(US ..CAN...hardly any difference now...)
100Mhz 2Ch..
Heyyyy... that's a big price difference...
D from BC
D from BC
wrote:
>D from BC wrote:
>> I want a scope for Christmas :)
>> I have a $2000.00CAD (including expenses) budget for a new or used
>> oscilloscope.
>> I tend to do smps and uC projects.
>>
>> Any suggests of what to look for?
>>
>> I've been browsing Ebay.
>> I've been looking at Tek scopes from the 90's.
>> A Tek 2465 for $66 bucks ..that's scary.... :O
>>
>>
>> D from BC
>
>That's rather odd. Most people come here asking for advice on a scope
>with a budget of 100 bucks or so which is a bit limited.
>
>2 thousand bucks leaves you wide open. Within reason you can have more
>or less whatever you fancy.
>
>A quick ebay look found about 3 or 4 of just about anything you want
>depending where your interests lie.
>
>Wprk out what you want, then go to ebay. Avoid names you never heard of.
>Simple rule really.
I guess stay away from the Nagafoogitzosushi scopes :)
D from BC
a7yvm1...@netzero.com
<jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 19:05:38 GMT, D from BC <myrealaddr...@comic.com>
IMHO scope's the wrong tool for that anyways. Get a PC based logic
analyzer. Much much cheaper too.
Anthony Fremont
> I checked out the demo on the Tek site..
> Colorrrr....(drooling like Homer with donuts.. :P.... )
> Lifetime warranty. ohhhh I'm checking the fine print on that..
10years after production stops IIRC. Bet the backlight/display isn't part
of the deal either.
> Certainly eliminates worrying about dubious Ebay scopes.
> Low shipping weight for low shipping charges...cool
> $1690CAN nice...100Mhz 2Ch.... ehhh..good enough...
>
> But how does it compair to Rigol color digital scopes??
> I'm currently doing some reading on the Rigol scopes..
> Found a price on
> http://www.testsolu.com/html/product_detail.php?pid=19307
> $870.00US...(US ..CAN...hardly any difference now...)
> 100Mhz 2Ch..
I have a DS1102C from Rigol. I really like it, but it's only
400Msamps/second. It's a real nice color display and the built in math
functions rival everything else going. I might be wrong, but I don't think
the 5102 model is 1Gsamp/second.
Spehro Pefhany
Which analog Tek scope has the best triggering? I'm in the market for
a workhorse simple knockaround analog scope that doesn't do do ugly
digital stuff and doesn't have menus. 100MHz is good enough, 300 would
be overkill. Something that can be thrown into the back of a truck or
small airplane without much worry. Didn't some of the old Tek scopes
have a fiberglass cover on the front?
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Jan Panteltje
<myreal...@comic.com> wrote in
<3gqfg359lb9va92fe...@4ax.com>:
>I guess stay away from the Nagafoogitzosushi scopes :)
>
>
>D from BC
With a 200$ budget, and time on your hands, how about designing and building your own.
As others mentioned you perhaps want a logic analyser for the uc too.
Le's see:
Grab one LCD (color?) display.
Grab a fast large FPGA
FPGA has enough I/O pins for analyser and LCD, memory interface.
Grab the free Altera or Xilinx soft.
Grab a very fast AD, with some very fast SRAM.
The fast FPGA may have already a processor.
Now input attenuator, some buttons, simple power supply,
and perhaps the most expensive the case.
Some connectors.
Some input protection.
Anybody have any design ideas?
Jim Thompson
I have an old Leader LBO-325 (60MHz, IIRC) that was just great for
such work, leather case, etc., but it's lost focus.
Trying to decide repair (pay to have it done) or replace.
I also have a TDS210, but it just doesn't feel right to an analog guy
;-)
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil
is that good men do nothing.
-Edmund Burke
Nico Coesel
Stick with the 400Ms/s model. 1Gs/s sounds nice, but it doesn't add
anything usefull in case of Rigol. The 5000 series has a tiny 4K
memory depth -pretty useless IMHO-. My Tek2230 from 1982 has 4k memory
depth...
Anyway, with the given budget I'd advice the 400Ms/s model with 16
digital inputs and 100MHz bandwidth.
Otherwise something interesting may turn up on Ebay... An MSO (2
analog, 16 digital) from Agilent should be possible.
--
Reply to nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
Bedrijven en winkels vindt U op www.adresboekje.nl
D from BC
I found a price on that GDS-2204 on Newark
http://www.newark.com/jsp/Supplier+Direct+Ship/All+Supplier+Direct+Ship/GW+INSTEK/GDS-2204/displayProduct.jsp?sku=24M2316
$1552.01US
Interesting.. for 200Mhz and 4 channels too..
That's less than the TDS2012 with only 100Mhz BW and 2channels.!!
I recall on the Tek demo that the TDS2012 is 100Mhz per channel..
Does the GDS-2204 have 200Mhz BW per channel?
By the way...I was looking up that HM2008 and came across this
http://www.tevalo.lv/flkwmet/HAMEG_Catalog_2007.pdf
Check out the fashion model with the scope waveforms in her eyes..
Sexy ..but cheesy too :)
D from BC
D from BC
(Arrrgh..ISP newserver is down..I have a posting delay on alternate
server)
The DS5102CAE is 1Gsa/s
The DS5102CE is 500Msa/s
D from BC
D from BC
wrote:
Ah...the VS5000 virtual D scope
http://www.rigolna.com/products_vs5000.aspx
Googled 1st price example..
http://www.tequipment.net/RigolVS5102D.html
$1199.00US
D from BC
John Larkin
I've never used a logic analyzer (except my brain, of course.)
John
John Larkin
Get a digital! Light, rugged, size of a lunchbox. My 2012 will easily
fit in my backpack, plus lunch! It's like taking an old Tek portable
and sawing the back 3/4 off.
John
Spehro Pefhany
I fixed a similar problem with a Korean-made analog scope- some 1%
resistors exposed to HV DC had shifted value by a large amount. Didn't
take me long to find once I had the schematic in hand (ordered over
the net). I could not have found a repair place or packed it up in
that length of time.
>
>I also have a TDS210, but it just doesn't feel right to an analog guy
>;-)
>
> ...Jim Thompson
Loathsome scope, IMO. The color Agilents are a bit better, but still
there's too much stuff between the signals/knobs and the screen, IMHO.
OTOH, if you're debugging a serial protocol or doing other
digital-type stuff they're nice. The digital stuff is also nice for
documenting screen caps, but I don't do that very often these days.
John Larkin
<notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>D from BC wrote:
>
>> I want a scope for Christmas :)
>> I have a $2000.00CAD (including expenses) budget for a new or used
>> oscilloscope.
>> I tend to do smps and uC projects.
>>
>
>Very different ballgames. SMPS mostly needs a good analog scope, ...
Why? I do just fine with a digital, and the infinite persistance and
measurements can be very useful, even for switchers.
Really, an analog scope is a primitive, almost qualitative instrument.
The really spiffy one for switchmode and power amps is the Tek with
true floating inputs. Just slap that probe g-s onto the highside
switching fet!
John
D from BC
Oh no no no no...
Bad enough my projects take up lots of time..
D from BC
Spehro Pefhany
<pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On a sunny day (Sat, 06 Oct 2007 20:12:33 GMT) it happened D from BC
><myreal...@comic.com> wrote in
><3gqfg359lb9va92fe...@4ax.com>:
>
>>I guess stay away from the Nagafoogitzosushi scopes :)
>>
>>
>>D from BC
>
>With a 200$ budget, and time on your hands, how about designing and building your own.
$2000 CAD budget, he said (= USD 2015 = EUR 1436). That's enough to
buy a decent scope.
>As others mentioned you perhaps want a logic analyser for the uc too.
>Le's see:
>
>Grab one LCD (color?) display.
>Grab a fast large FPGA
>FPGA has enough I/O pins for analyser and LCD, memory interface.
>Grab the free Altera or Xilinx soft.
>Grab a very fast AD, with some very fast SRAM.
>The fast FPGA may have already a processor.
>Now input attenuator, some buttons, simple power supply,
>and perhaps the most expensive the case.
>Some connectors.
>Some input protection.
>Anybody have any design ideas?
How about the trigger circuitry? I think that might be the challenge,
and a quite difficult one without proper test equipment. ;-)
D from BC
It's one of those circular things...
Like the time I needed a hammer to fix my only broken hammer.
One needs a good scope to make a good scope. :(
Oh wait..I'd believe this more...
One needs an excellent scope to make a good scope..
D from BC
Robert Baer
??Rigol??
Never heard of them.
Made / sold where?
How many years have they been in business?
Whst other products do they make / sell?
How reliable is their stuff? (prolly should have been first question)
D from BC
http://www.rigolna.com/
"
RIGOL TECHNOLOGIES, INC. is an emerging leader in the test and
measurement field. Our current product line consists of Digital
Oscilloscopes, Function/Arbitrary Waveform Generators, Digital
Multimeters, Virtual Instruments with LXI compatibility and more.
Business Philosophy: Focus on our customers current and future
needs by creating innovative, high quality products that deliver great
value.
RIGOL currently has 300 employees and is Continuously growing.
Most of our employees are at our Beijing Technology Campus. We invest
heavily in R&D and today have over 50 R&D engineers working on future
products. RIGOL has 10 sales offices in China along with a branch
office in North America. Currently we offer our products and services
in over 42 countries or regions on six continents utilizing more than
150 distributors and representatives.
The prestigious EDN China Annual Innovation Award for RIOGL DS1000
series DSO was awarded to RIOGL along with Local Innovation Company
Award, the first time it was ever awarded to a Chinese company.
RIGOL Technologies, Inc. is an ISO9001:2004 Quality Management
System and ISO14001:2000 Environmental Management System Certified
company.
Jul, 1998 RIGOL WORKSHOP was founded in Beijing.
May, 1999 RIGOL's first product RVO2100, a high performance Virtual
Digital Storage
Oscilloscope was introduced.
Dec, 2000 RIGOL Technoligies, Inc. was founded and certified as New
Hi-tech Enterprise."
D from BC
Spehro Pefhany
Yes, very nice. I imagine it might be quite useful in situations with
transient common mode voltages as well.
Spehro Pefhany
<jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
It's the digital (Tek TDS something-or-other monochrome) that they
want to throw in the trash can. It's for troubleshooting, not circuit
design.
John Larkin
<spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
Geez, I haven't used an analog scope more than a couple times in the
last year. I do most of my work with my TDS2012, except the fast stuff
with an 11801 sampler. Monochrome scopes just confuse me now.
The 11801, incidentally, uses a magnetic-deflection,
vertical-raster-scan CRT!
John
a7yvm1...@netzero.com
Try this one.
http://www.pctestinstruments.com/
Once the design basics have been verified with a scope, (things like
signal integrity and levels), you're much better off with something
like that instead of a scope. The probes are much easier to work with,
and you have tons of channels, and flexible triggering, etc, and of
course you can have the GUI do the sweaty stuff like decode I2C.
If you stick to lower speed stuff and have a bit of experience, you
don't even need a scope really. I always assume my PIC junk works at
the hardware level, it's usually my code that's broken.
Spehro Pefhany
How did the excellent scope get made then?
D from BC
<spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
Trial and error? :P
Okk.... you got me on that technicality.. :(
D from BC
John Larkin
Yeah. Usually after you've done some huge amount of signal analysis,
you smack yourself upside the head and say "duhh, of course." The
problem was often there, in plain sight.
John
Nico Coesel
The word is they design & produce Agilent's low end scopes. I 'know'
some Rigol owners through an internet forum and they are quite pleased
with it.
Jan Panteltje
<spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in
<739gg3tft7naau4f6...@4ax.com>:
>On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 21:22:36 GMT, the renowned Jan Panteltje
><pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On a sunny day (Sat, 06 Oct 2007 20:12:33 GMT) it happened D from BC
>><myreal...@comic.com> wrote in
>><3gqfg359lb9va92fe...@4ax.com>:
>>
>>>I guess stay away from the Nagafoogitzosushi scopes :)
>>>
>>>
>>>D from BC
>>
>>With a 200$ budget, and time on your hands, how about designing and building your own.
>
>$2000 CAD budget, he said (= USD 2015 = EUR 1436). That's enough to
>buy a decent scope.
Yes, was a type, I ment 2000, sure you can buy anything, but as to the nature
of this group designing seems more fun.
There may be other reasons to buy, like 'a tek loks good in my workshop',
etc... there are people who collect stuff like that... impresses customers.
>How about the trigger circuitry? I think that might be the challenge,
>and a quite difficult one without proper test equipment. ;-)
Not sure, we have not specified any parameters yet, but if it is sampling at say 200MHz
continuously, you can trigger at time t and display from t - x.
Trigger is then a simple hardware comparator in the FPGA.
Maybe even use the FPGA internal blockrams for the grab.
I did this for TV sync slice, auto trigger in a Spartan2.
More challenging for me would be a small say 500MHz wide, 500x gain, variable
gain amp.
Jan Panteltje
<myreal...@comic.com> wrote in
<5f5gg3tttlqi4go2q...@4ax.com>:
No, if that was so then there would be nothing ever.
the digital part can be 100% simulated anyways, and the analog part too.
A few tricks you must have aquired yourself over time.
If it displays a 50MHz square wave from some chip output, without shoots and
stuff, you are getting closer to something you could use for power
suplies and normal uc I think?
Jan Panteltje
<myreal...@comic.com> wrote in
<mr4gg3h7dft4sdk4d...@4ax.com>:
It is 2 month till christmass.
Did you never have a boss who came in on Monday with a new micro,
and expected a working controller before friday?
And I had one who would come in on Wednesday to see if it was ready yet :-)
Nico Coesel
>On a sunny day (Sat, 06 Oct 2007 19:16:18 -0500) it happened Spehro Pefhany
><spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in
><739gg3tft7naau4f6...@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 21:22:36 GMT, the renowned Jan Panteltje
>><pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On a sunny day (Sat, 06 Oct 2007 20:12:33 GMT) it happened D from BC
>>><myreal...@comic.com> wrote in
>>><3gqfg359lb9va92fe...@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>>I guess stay away from the Nagafoogitzosushi scopes :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>D from BC
>>>
>>>With a 200$ budget, and time on your hands, how about designing and building your own.
>>
>>$2000 CAD budget, he said (= USD 2015 = EUR 1436). That's enough to
>>buy a decent scope.
>
>Yes, was a type, I ment 2000, sure you can buy anything, but as to the nature
>of this group designing seems more fun.
>
>There may be other reasons to buy, like 'a tek loks good in my workshop',
>etc... there are people who collect stuff like that... impresses customers.
How about 'a bought oscilloscope works out of the box'?
>>How about the trigger circuitry? I think that might be the challenge,
>>and a quite difficult one without proper test equipment. ;-)
>
>Not sure, we have not specified any parameters yet, but if it is sampling at say 200MHz
>continuously, you can trigger at time t and display from t - x.
>Trigger is then a simple hardware comparator in the FPGA.
>Maybe even use the FPGA internal blockrams for the grab.
>I did this for TV sync slice, auto trigger in a Spartan2.
>More challenging for me would be a small say 500MHz wide, 500x gain, variable
>gain amp.
The biggest job is not the hardware, it is the software that takes
most of the development time. I estimate an DSO is 5% hardware, 95%
software. The input circuitry poses some interesting challences
though.
Jan Panteltje
(Nico Coesel) wrote in <4708c298....@news.planet.nl>:
>>There may be other reasons to buy, like 'a tek loks good in my workshop',
>>etc... there are people who collect stuff like that... impresses customers.
>
>How about 'a bought oscilloscope works out of the box'?
But it likely won't have all the fun things YOU could think of.
>most of the development time. I estimate an DSO is 5% hardware, 95%
>software.
Well, depends what you want to add to 'software', advanced
signal analysis.. fft.. whatever.., these algos
are well known, and are available as GPL, assuming the
little FPGA board runs Linux for example.
With tools like xst hardware (HDL) design may be challenging, and
time consuming.
> The input circuitry poses some interesting challences
>though.
Absolutely, I would like at least 10mV sensitivity,
so some gain is needed too.
The plus side is, that once it works OK, you can sell it.
And if it breaks down, you can fix it yourself.
And software updates if you need a specific function
are possible.
Only limited by the imagination.
On fpga4fun is a little 100 MHz scope:
http://www.fpga4fun.com/digitalscope.html
Joerg
> On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 12:59:28 -0700, Joerg
> <notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>
>
>>D from BC wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I want a scope for Christmas :)
>>>I have a $2000.00CAD (including expenses) budget for a new or used
>>>oscilloscope.
>>>I tend to do smps and uC projects.
>>>
>>
>>Very different ballgames. SMPS mostly needs a good analog scope, ...
>
>
> Why? I do just fine with a digital, and the infinite persistance and
> measurements can be very useful, even for switchers.
>
> Really, an analog scope is a primitive, almost qualitative instrument.
>
DSOs can show you fake signals when irregular stuff happens, especially
so once they go into "pseudo" mode, usually above 10nsec/div. Just had
that happen last week, fired up the trusty analog scope, all nice and clear.
Take one of your pulse generators, set it to double pulse and play with
the DSO a little. You can get rather interesting rising and falling
lattice fence sections onto the screen (that, of course, aren't really
there).
A Tek 2465 is in no way primitive. It's often the only tool to find some
bugs in a reasonable time frame.
> The really spiffy one for switchmode and power amps is the Tek with
> true floating inputs. Just slap that probe g-s onto the highside
> switching fet!
>
Did ya hafta put marzipan in front of me and then pull it away again? If
the budget was infinite ...
But I won't touch any Tek with LCD/TFT screen anymore until rather
exhaustive noise tests. Been burnt, big time, and so was a client.
--
Regards, Joerg
Joerg
> On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 12:59:28 -0700, Joerg
> <notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>
>
>>D from BC wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I want a scope for Christmas :)
>>>I have a $2000.00CAD (including expenses) budget for a new or used
>>>oscilloscope.
>>>I tend to do smps and uC projects.
>>>
>>
>>Very different ballgames. SMPS mostly needs a good analog scope, uC
>>needs digital storage.
>>
>>
>>
>>>Any suggests of what to look for?
>>>
>>>I've been browsing Ebay.
>>>I've been looking at Tek scopes from the 90's.
>>>A Tek 2465 for $66 bucks ..that's scary.... :O
>>>
>>
>>That's a good deal but it's probably very tired even if it works.
>>Usually they go for around $300-$500 US. But be prepared that the knobs
>>fall apart. Last time the delay trigger clutch fell apart on me, major
>>dismantling required. But worth it. These were IMHO among the best
>>mainstream scopes Tek ever made. Unlike the TDS series from which I
>>personally stay away after some nasty noise issues. Plus they've got no
>>memory to speak of. 2.5K, pathetic. They should hire some of their
>>retirees back, they know how it's done.
>>
>>I bought a GW-Instek GDS-2204 a few months ago. So far very happy with
>>it. Plus it got ten times the memory depth of the more expensive TDS,
>>25K. Heck, even HP only had 4K. Bought it from Farnell UK via Newark,
>>IIRC a tad over $1600 with customs, shipping and taxes. I could look it
>>up if needed.
>>
>>Probably the best for both worlds would be the Hameg Combo-Scope HM2008.
>>Has a real CRT and I think a whopping megabyte of memory. However, it'll
>>be somewhat above your budget now because the Euro is so high.
>>
>>Some scopes have a small logic analyzer with eight or so probes built
>>in. Very handy if you have to debug an extended SPI and stuff like that.
>>I do that with the four channels and a dousing rod, or a real logic
>>analyzer but mine is too heavy to carry to clients.
>
>
> I found a price on that GDS-2204 on Newark
> http://www.newark.com/jsp/Supplier+Direct+Ship/All+Supplier+Direct+Ship/GW+INSTEK/GDS-2204/displayProduct.jsp?sku=24M2316
> $1552.01US
> Interesting.. for 200Mhz and 4 channels too..
> That's less than the TDS2012 with only 100Mhz BW and 2channels.!!
> I recall on the Tek demo that the TDS2012 is 100Mhz per channel..
> Does the GDS-2204 have 200Mhz BW per channel?
>
Yep. But be prepared for some rather rocky translations in the menu and
the manual. A sample: "DSO not connect" (when you forget to plug in the
USB cable). The PC display requires .NET 1.1, the newer 2.0 isn't
compatible because it seems Redmond has screwed it up. But it sure is
nice to be able to display the screen across the full monitor area of a
PC, especially when you must use magnifier glasses for those 0402 parts.
Also, remember that almost none of these new DSO feature delayed
trigger. No idea why, it is so easy and cheap (or free) to implement.
Sure hope they'll add that back in the firmware, I've asked them to.
Their 2ch model does have delayed trigger (!).
> By the way...I was looking up that HM2008 and came across this
> http://www.tevalo.lv/flkwmet/HAMEG_Catalog_2007.pdf
> Check out the fashion model with the scope waveforms in her eyes..
> Sexy ..but cheesy too :)
>
She's on almost all their web pages. AFAIK Hameg was bought by
Rohde&Schwarz, maybe that did it, I don't know.
Michael A. Terrell
>
> I have an old Leader LBO-325 (60MHz, IIRC) that was just great for
> such work, leather case, etc., but it's lost focus.
>
> Trying to decide repair (pay to have it done) or replace.
>
> ;-)
i have seen that in about a dozen scopes. it is usually a resistor
opening up in the focus and brightness pot string Average cost to
repair is a buck.
I had a Leader LB 505 that was so old, it was built with US made
transistors. The manual showed Jap 2S parts, but it was built with @N
parts. I bought it new just after I got out of the service. It was
stolen a few years later. :(
--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.
Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
Jamie
> Jim Thompson wrote:
>
>>I have an old Leader LBO-325 (60MHz, IIRC) that was just great for
>>such work, leather case, etc., but it's lost focus.
>>
>>Trying to decide repair (pay to have it done) or replace.
>>
>>I also have a TDS210, but it just doesn't feel right to an analog guy
>>;-)
>
>
>
> i have seen that in about a dozen scopes. it is usually a resistor
> opening up in the focus and brightness pot string Average cost to
> repair is a buck.
>
> I had a Leader LB 505 that was so old, it was built with US made
> transistors. The manual showed Jap 2S parts, but it was built with @N
> parts. I bought it new just after I got out of the service. It was
> stolen a few years later. :(
>
>
They might of did you a favor! :)
--
"I'm never wrong, once i thought i was, but was mistaken"
Real Programmers Do things like this.
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5
Don Lancaster
> I want a scope for Christmas :)
> I have a $2000.00CAD (including expenses) budget for a new or used
> oscilloscope.
> I tend to do smps and uC projects.
>
>
> I've been browsing Ebay.
> I've been looking at Tek scopes from the 90's.
> A Tek 2465 for $66 bucks ..that's scary.... :O
>
>
Try the Hewlett-Packard 130C.
It was the last decent oscilloscope they ever built.
--
Many thanks,
Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: d...@tinaja.com
Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
D from BC
>I want a scope for Christmas :)
>I have a $2000.00CAD (including expenses) budget for a new or used
>oscilloscope.
>I tend to do smps and uC projects.
>
>Any suggests of what to look for?
>
>I've been browsing Ebay.
>I've been looking at Tek scopes from the 90's.
>A Tek 2465 for $66 bucks ..that's scary.... :O
>
>
>D from BC
Ok... I'm now reading on the
Instek GDS2204 DSO 200Mhz 4ch at ~$1600.00
EZ Digital DS1250 DSO 250Mhz 2ch at ~$2000.00
Rigol DS5202CA DSO 200Mhz 2ch at ~$2000.00
Tektronics TDS2022B DSO 200Mhz 2ch at ~$1800.00
PICO Tech. PC based oscilloscope 3206 200Mhz 2ch at ~1500.00
Memory depths and sample rates vary..
Should be all colour displays.
Prices from 1st find off Google
At current... for 200Mhz BW... price ~= BW*10
I sense this is the current knee region.
Any more BW and the price starts to sharply rise.
I suspect in this BW/price region...whoever offers the most memory
depth may be the better deal.
D from BC
John Larkin
<notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>John Larkin wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 12:59:28 -0700, Joerg
>> <notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>D from BC wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I want a scope for Christmas :)
>>>>I have a $2000.00CAD (including expenses) budget for a new or used
>>>>oscilloscope.
>>>>I tend to do smps and uC projects.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Very different ballgames. SMPS mostly needs a good analog scope, ...
>>
>>
>> Why? I do just fine with a digital, and the infinite persistance and
>> measurements can be very useful, even for switchers.
>>
>> Really, an analog scope is a primitive, almost qualitative instrument.
>>
>
>DSOs can show you fake signals when irregular stuff happens, especially
>so once they go into "pseudo" mode, usually above 10nsec/div. Just had
>that happen last week, fired up the trusty analog scope, all nice and clear.
The cheapies, with low sample rates, switch to equivalent-time mode at
high sweep speeds, and often do even that badly. My cheap TDS2012
samples at 1 Gs, and our 500 MHz thing samples at 4 GHz. They do
alias, but you get used to that pretty fast. The aliasing trades off
against the fact that a single shot waveform is perfectly visible at
any sweep speed, and infinite persistance can catch all sorts of rare,
nasty events.
I hated digital scopes at first, because they were too hard to drive.
We demoed one Agilent that nobody could get to work, the menus were so
obscure. But now they have all the good old knobs and buttons that God
intended a scope to have.
>
>Take one of your pulse generators, set it to double pulse and play with
>the DSO a little. You can get rather interesting rising and falling
>lattice fence sections onto the screen (that, of course, aren't really
>there).
>
>A Tek 2465 is in no way primitive. It's often the only tool to find some
>bugs in a reasonable time frame.
>
>
>> The really spiffy one for switchmode and power amps is the Tek with
>> true floating inputs. Just slap that probe g-s onto the highside
>> switching fet!
>>
>
>Did ya hafta put marzipan in front of me and then pull it away again? If
>the budget was infinite ...
Our TPS2024 is 4 channels, 200 MHz, 2 gs/s, fully isolated - even the
trigger input - and comes standard with battery power. Fabulous for
working on power amps, what with opamps and fets riding 200 volts off
ground. Cool black BNCs on the front panel.
>
>But I won't touch any Tek with LCD/TFT screen anymore until rather
>exhaustive noise tests. Been burnt, big time, and so was a client.
Our EMI environment is so extreme, it just adds spice to the mix.
John
D from BC
wrote:
>D from BC wrote:
>> I want a scope for Christmas :)
>> I have a $2000.00CAD (including expenses) budget for a new or used
>> oscilloscope.
>> I tend to do smps and uC projects.
>>
>> Any suggests of what to look for?
>>
>> I've been browsing Ebay.
>> I've been looking at Tek scopes from the 90's.
>> A Tek 2465 for $66 bucks ..that's scary.... :O
>>
>>
>> D from BC
>
>Try the Hewlett-Packard 130C.
>It was the last decent oscilloscope they ever built.
Heyy..isn't that from the 60's??
http://hpmemory.org/wb_pages/wall_b_page_02.htm
D from BC
D from BC
<notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
Oh nooo... If I buy a DSO, I might need to get an analog scope too so
that I can confirm strange waveform results on the digital scope. :(
Maybe call it "Digital Scope Training with help from an Analog Scope".
:)
D from BC
Jeff Liebermann
>I want a scope for Christmas :)
Too long to wait. Buy the scope early and depreciated it on this
years taxes.
I have 15 assorted scopes (10 of which actually work) between the
house, shop, and office. I think I'm down to about 6 scope probes.
Despite all these scopes, the ones I use most are various PC sound
card based software oscilloscopes, audio spectrum analyzers, and tone
generators. Yeah, I know the frequency range is limited to audio and
it won't do DC, but otherwise, the software scopes have the all the
computerish benifits of a real DSO. My favorite for the week is:
<http://www.sillanumsoft.com>
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
David L. Jones
>
> >>On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 19:05:38 GMT, D from BC <myrealaddr...@comic.com>
> >>wrote:
>
> >>>I want a scope for Christmas :)
> >>>oscilloscope.
> >>>I tend to do smps and uC projects.
>
>
> >>>I've been browsing Ebay.
> >>>I've been looking at Tek scopes from the 90's.
> >>>A Tek 2465 for $66 bucks ..that's scary.... :O
>
> >>>D from BC
>
> >>capturing transients, or scoping a uP bus, they're miles ahead of any
> >>analog scope. Much smaller and lighter, too.
>
> >>John
>
> > I checked out the demo on the Tek site..
> > Colorrrr....(drooling like Homer with donuts.. :P.... )
> > Lifetime warranty. ohhhh I'm checking the fine print on that..
> > Certainly eliminates worrying about dubious Ebay scopes.
> > Low shipping weight for low shipping charges...cool
> > $1690CAN nice...100Mhz 2Ch.... ehhh..good enough...
>
> > But how does it compair to Rigol color digital scopes??
> > I'm currently doing some reading on the Rigol scopes..
> > Found a price on
> >http://www.testsolu.com/html/product_detail.php?pid=19307
> > $870.00US...(US ..CAN...hardly any difference now...)
> > 100Mhz 2Ch..
> > Heyyyy... that's a big price difference...
> > D from BC
>
> ??Rigol??
> Never heard of them.
> Made / sold where?
> Whst other products do they make / sell?
> How reliable is their stuff? (prolly should have been first question)
Rigol design and manufacture the low end Agilent digital scopes,
exactly the same scope but with Agilent branded on it. That should
give you a lot of confidence in the construction, performance, and
firmware. They roll their own ADC front end too, something that the
other no-namers can't and don't do.
So if you are looking at the low end Agilents, consider the Rigol, you
might be able to pick up the exact same scope for a bit less.
Dave.
Joerg
Well, mine's 1Gs/sec as well but for many higher frequency switchers
that ain't fast enough. Once it goes into equivalent time that's when I
pull the power knob on the 7000 series mainframe and that marvelous blue
light emerges from its screen.
> I hated digital scopes at first, because they were too hard to drive.
> We demoed one Agilent that nobody could get to work, the menus were so
> obscure. But now they have all the good old knobs and buttons that God
> intended a scope to have.
>
>
>
>>Take one of your pulse generators, set it to double pulse and play with
>>the DSO a little. You can get rather interesting rising and falling
>>lattice fence sections onto the screen (that, of course, aren't really
>>there).
>>
>>A Tek 2465 is in no way primitive. It's often the only tool to find some
>>bugs in a reasonable time frame.
>>
>>
>>
>>>The really spiffy one for switchmode and power amps is the Tek with
>>>true floating inputs. Just slap that probe g-s onto the highside
>>>switching fet!
>>>
>>
>>Did ya hafta put marzipan in front of me and then pull it away again? If
>>the budget was infinite ...
>
>
> Our TPS2024 is 4 channels, 200 MHz, 2 gs/s, fully isolated - even the
> trigger input - and comes standard with battery power. Fabulous for
> working on power amps, what with opamps and fets riding 200 volts off
> ground. Cool black BNCs on the front panel.
>
But that thing plays in another league in terms of cost.
>
>>But I won't touch any Tek with LCD/TFT screen anymore until rather
>>exhaustive noise tests. Been burnt, big time, and so was a client.
>
>
> Our EMI environment is so extreme, it just adds spice to the mix.
>
The issue I had with the TDS was conducted noise spilling out via the
probe lines. Pathetic. I am pretty sure that wouldn't have happened were
the old guys still there. I think they even had some kind of recall
because they also botched the PE grounding on some models. I wonder why
that wasn't caught in a design review or during tests. They are supposed
to be the Mercedes-Benz in oscilloscopes.
John Larkin
wrote:
>D from BC wrote:
>> I want a scope for Christmas :)
>> I have a $2000.00CAD (including expenses) budget for a new or used
>> oscilloscope.
>> I tend to do smps and uC projects.
>>
>> Any suggests of what to look for?
>>
>> I've been browsing Ebay.
>> I've been looking at Tek scopes from the 90's.
>> A Tek 2465 for $66 bucks ..that's scary.... :O
>>
>>
>> D from BC
>
>Try the Hewlett-Packard 130C.
>It was the last decent oscilloscope they ever built.
One of my customers has a new 8 GHz (40 gs/s or something absurd like
that) Agilent scope that cost close to $100K. He says it's hard to get
it to trigger!
John
Joerg
If you buy the Hameg you'll have both worlds. But it'll be above $2K.
I'd seriously ask myself how much BW I really need. For uC you can live
with 100MHz IMHO. That might leave enough dough for a cheap (or used)
analog scope for SMPS projects. Picture this: You'll get to open two
presents instead of one!
Joerg
> On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 19:05:38 GMT, D from BC <myreal...@comic.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>I want a scope for Christmas :)
>>I have a $2000.00CAD (including expenses) budget for a new or used
>>oscilloscope.
>>I tend to do smps and uC projects.
>>
>>Any suggests of what to look for?
>>
>>I've been browsing Ebay.
>>I've been looking at Tek scopes from the 90's.
>>A Tek 2465 for $66 bucks ..that's scary.... :O
>>
>>
>>D from BC
>
>
> Ok... I'm now reading on the
>
> Instek GDS2204 DSO 200Mhz 4ch at ~$1600.00
> EZ Digital DS1250 DSO 250Mhz 2ch at ~$2000.00
> Rigol DS5202CA DSO 200Mhz 2ch at ~$2000.00
> Tektronics TDS2022B DSO 200Mhz 2ch at ~$1800.00
> PICO Tech. PC based oscilloscope 3206 200Mhz 2ch at ~1500.00
>
If you plan to do uC work with a DSO that does not feature a built-in
little logic analyzer then two channels ain't enough. For example,
lately I had to debug a SPI bus together with a software guy. Requires
three channels and for bidirectional operation (which is the usual
method) four channels. But you don't really need 200MHz for such jobs.
> Memory depths and sample rates vary..
> Should be all colour displays.
> Prices from 1st find off Google
>
> At current... for 200Mhz BW... price ~= BW*10
> I sense this is the current knee region.
> Any more BW and the price starts to sharply rise.
>
Yep, pretty much.
> I suspect in this BW/price region...whoever offers the most memory
> depth may be the better deal.
>
Depends on what you want to do. For switchers you don't need lots of
memory. For lengthy SPI, I2C oder other serial comms you do. Remember
that most DSO lack delayed trigger so often you are pre-filling memory
with junk until it gets to the point you want to look at. With the
paltry 2500 samples of a TDS that's often next to impossible. The other
end of the spectrum would be the Hameg which can store humongous amounts.
As to PC scopes keep in mind that SMPS work entails the occasional
"kablouiue" situation. A scope is pretty sturdy. But is the PC? Or will
it release a puff of smoke when the USB ground gets hit?
Paul Mathews
>
> - Show quoted text -
I haven't used an analog scope for several years. I'd say they still
have their place for low-level work, though. I agree with most of John
Larkin's comments in this thread. It's really pretty easy to check for
aliasing. D from BC, I'd say that you should save some of your budget
for a current probe rather than an analog DSO.
Paul Mathews
John Larkin
wrote:
Fet probes are the real killer. The difference is astonishing.
I don't know why they're so expensive.
John
Joerg
It's easy to check for aliasing if you roughly know what to expect. Many
times that's not the case. Also, the fact that DSO designers thought it
smart to remove greatly needed features such as delay trigger and even
holdoff (!) doesn't exactly make it easy to obtain a proper scan.
Sometimes I wonder how many of the DSO designers have actually worked in
hardcore circuit design these days.
D from BC
wrote:
>On Oct 7, 12:44 pm, D from BC <myrealaddr...@comic.com> wrote:
Yeah...
I should pick up on the DSO quirks.
"My god.. It's full of stairs!" (ok..a little spoof on the movie 2001)
I'm thinking of buying a new DSO to test drive for smps development..
If it sucks...then it gets used for my uC projects and then I buy an
Ebay analog scope for smps work.
D from BC
Jamie Morken
> On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 12:59:28 -0700, Joerg
> <notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>
>> D from BC wrote:
>>
>>> I want a scope for Christmas :)
>>> I have a $2000.00CAD (including expenses) budget for a new or used
>>> oscilloscope.
>>> I tend to do smps and uC projects.
>>>
>> Very different ballgames. SMPS mostly needs a good analog scope, ...
>
> Why? I do just fine with a digital, and the infinite persistance and
> measurements can be very useful, even for switchers.
>
> Really, an analog scope is a primitive, almost qualitative instrument.
>
> true floating inputs. Just slap that probe g-s onto the highside
> switching fet!
Are the floating inputs in the probes or in the scope? I am working on
a SMPS with uC control and don't have a scope yet, figure I better get
one so I am in the market too!
cheers,
Jamie
>
> John
>
>
Jamie
Well, My cheap Chinese knock off hand held scope meter has all
isolated inputs for the common.
I own 2 of these scopes. one is 20 mhz and the other 60 mhz
My bench unit is 350Mhz but that's an TEK analog which I still
like using.
the Digital's are for quick and dirty stuff.
I do get to use a 200 mhz digital at work.
John Larkin
wrote:
In the scope itself. I'm not sure, but I think they use GHz-range FM
to couple the signal from the floating input stage to
ground-referenced. It comes with special safety-rated probes (no
exposed metal) but any probes, or no probes, work fine. TPS2000
series, starts around $2500, not bad if you consider what isolation
probes cost.
John
Jamie Morken
So if you have a scope without the true floating inputs, how do you
measure a high side switching fet in that case?
cheers,
Jamie
>
>
> John
>
>
Tim Williams
news:eyhOi.2037$th2.14@pd7urf3no...
> So if you have a scope without the true floating inputs, how do you
> measure a high side switching fet in that case?
Last time I had to do that, I unplugged the HV and clipped the probe to the
gate drive's output. ;-)
It's kinda funny that a few DC volts are developed on the bridge, due to
gate capacitance and rectification.
Tim
--
Deep Fryer: A very philosophical monk.
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms
Robert Baer
> On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 16:29:55 -0700, Robert Baer
> <rober...@localnet.com> wrote:
>
>
>>D from BC wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 12:11:26 -0700, John Larkin
>>><jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 19:05:38 GMT, D from BC <myreal...@comic.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I want a scope for Christmas :)
>>>>>I have a $2000.00CAD (including expenses) budget for a new or used
>>>>>oscilloscope.
>>>>>I tend to do smps and uC projects.
>>>>>
>>>>>Any suggests of what to look for?
>>>>>
>>>>>I've been browsing Ebay.
>>>>>I've been looking at Tek scopes from the 90's.
>>>>>A Tek 2465 for $66 bucks ..that's scary.... :O
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>D from BC
>>>>
>>>>Get a color digital scope, TDS2012 or maybe the low-end Agilent. For
>>>>capturing transients, or scoping a uP bus, they're miles ahead of any
>>>>analog scope. Much smaller and lighter, too.
>>>>
>>>>John
>>>
>>>
>>>I checked out the demo on the Tek site..
>>>Colorrrr....(drooling like Homer with donuts.. :P.... )
>>>Lifetime warranty. ohhhh I'm checking the fine print on that..
>>>Certainly eliminates worrying about dubious Ebay scopes.
>>>Low shipping weight for low shipping charges...cool
>>>$1690CAN nice...100Mhz 2Ch.... ehhh..good enough...
>>>
>>>But how does it compair to Rigol color digital scopes??
>>>I'm currently doing some reading on the Rigol scopes..
>>>Found a price on
>>>http://www.testsolu.com/html/product_detail.php?pid=19307
>>>$870.00US...(US ..CAN...hardly any difference now...)
>>>100Mhz 2Ch..
>>>Heyyyy... that's a big price difference...
>>>D from BC
>>
>> ??Rigol??
>> Never heard of them.
>> Made / sold where?
>> How many years have they been in business?
>> Whst other products do they make / sell?
>> How reliable is their stuff? (prolly should have been first question)
>
>
> http://www.rigolna.com/
> "
> RIGOL TECHNOLOGIES, INC. is an emerging leader in the test and
> measurement field. Our current product line consists of Digital
> Oscilloscopes, Function/Arbitrary Waveform Generators, Digital
> Multimeters, Virtual Instruments with LXI compatibility and more.
> Business Philosophy: Focus on our customers current and future
> needs by creating innovative, high quality products that deliver great
> value.
> RIGOL currently has 300 employees and is Continuously growing.
> Most of our employees are at our Beijing Technology Campus. We invest
> heavily in R&D and today have over 50 R&D engineers working on future
> products. RIGOL has 10 sales offices in China along with a branch
> office in North America. Currently we offer our products and services
> in over 42 countries or regions on six continents utilizing more than
> 150 distributors and representatives.
> The prestigious EDN China Annual Innovation Award for RIOGL DS1000
> series DSO was awarded to RIOGL along with Local Innovation Company
> Award, the first time it was ever awarded to a Chinese company.
> RIGOL Technologies, Inc. is an ISO9001:2004 Quality Management
> System and ISO14001:2000 Environmental Management System Certified
> company.
>
> Jul, 1998 RIGOL WORKSHOP was founded in Beijing.
> May, 1999 RIGOL's first product RVO2100, a high performance Virtual
> Digital Storage
> Oscilloscope was introduced.
> Dec, 2000 RIGOL Technoligies, Inc. was founded and certified as New
> Hi-tech Enterprise."
>
>
> D from BC
New kid on the block; almost no reliability data.
I say, tread carefully.
D from BC
<rober...@localnet.com> wrote:
A scope that I can't shake too hard.. :)
I think I can get 2 new Rigols (100Mhz 2ch) DSO's for the price of 1
new Tektronics DSO (100Mhz 2ch) with nearly the same specs.
(Needs verifying.)
With 2 Rigol scopes...
When one Rigol scope breaks...I can use the other Rigol scope to test
it or scrap it for parts.. :)
Heck... Maybe 2 Rigols might last as long as one similar Tektronics.
Rigol disposible scopes.. :P
Perhaps by the time the Rigol breaks..I'll have saved up enough money
to get the next generation lastest/greatest test equipment.
(I'm so glad my CRT computer monitors broke..)
However..
I'm considering the Instek GDS-2204 200Mhz, 4 channel, 1Gs/s, 23kpoint
mem. Stocked in California I think. Made in Taiwan.
And I'm trying to work a $500 cash deal locally for a Tektronics 2465B
400Mhz 4ch analog scope. (I think I saw somewhere they used to go for
$16000??)
D from BC
Jan Panteltje
<jmo...@shaw.ca> wrote in <eyhOi.2037$th2.14@pd7urf3no>:>
>So if you have a scope without the true floating inputs, how do you
>measure a high side switching fet in that case?
You could use 2 channels, substract, use 10x probe.
That will give you a bit common of mode range, and could work if your
signal is big enough.
Joerg
The real killer is a FET probe plus the 2x20dB HP amplifier. "Eeew, I
never thought that kind of noise was riding on this rail ..."
> I don't know why they're so expensive.
>
I got both of mone used. One Tek and one Philips. I wish the cable was
less bulky. Over the years I have repaired many, typically a few cheap
SOT23 devices do the trick. I could imagine there should be some deals
at EBay under the "not tested, as is" category just like with the stash
of sample heads you've bought.
Because of the bulk and hassle I often use a resistive divider on a 50
ohm coax instead. Above 100MHz or so there is rarely a need for
impedances higher than a kiloohm.
Nico Coesel
23kpoints memory is too small. Go for at least 1Mpoints. Besides, if
you want to measure anything over 100MHz, you'll need special probes
too that use the 50 Ohm inputs of your scope. Either FET or passive
dividers.
--
Reply to nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
Bedrijven en winkels vindt U op www.adresboekje.nl
Joerg
Better plan on "plan B" :-)
--
Regards, Joerg (a guy who does a lot of switchers)
Michael A. Terrell
>
> They might of did you a favor! :)
No, they didn't. They stole a $300+ dual channel triggered scope with
less than 100 hours of use that I had to replace out of my own pocket.
Microdyne had almost 100 Leader LBO-508 scopes, and most were in use,
daily in both engineering, and the test line. They were over 20 years
old, and still in good working order. When needed, better scopes were
available, both analog and digital. I had a Tek 2465 on my bench, for
several years.
--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.
Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
Michael A. Terrell
>
> Better plan on "plan B" :-)
I think "Plan 9 from Outer Space" would be more appropriate!
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052077/
JosephKK
sci.electronics.design:
> On a sunny day (Sat, 06 Oct 2007 16:14:26 -0700) it happened D from
> BC <myreal...@comic.com> wrote in
> <5f5gg3tttlqi4go2q...@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 19:16:18 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
>><spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 21:22:36 GMT, the renowned Jan Panteltje
>>><pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On a sunny day (Sat, 06 Oct 2007 20:12:33 GMT) it happened D from
>>>>BC <myreal...@comic.com> wrote in
>>>><3gqfg359lb9va92fe...@4ax.com>:
>>>>
>>>>>I guess stay away from the Nagafoogitzosushi scopes :)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>D from BC
>>>>
>>>>With a 200$ budget, and time on your hands, how about designing
>>>>and building your own.
>>>
>>>$2000 CAD budget, he said (= USD 2015 = EUR 1436). That's enough to
>>>buy a decent scope.
>>>
>>>
>>>>As others mentioned you perhaps want a logic analyser for the uc
>>>>too. Le's see:
>>>>
>>>>Grab one LCD (color?) display.
>>>>Grab a fast large FPGA
>>>>FPGA has enough I/O pins for analyser and LCD, memory interface.
>>>>Grab the free Altera or Xilinx soft.
>>>>Grab a very fast AD, with some very fast SRAM.
>>>>The fast FPGA may have already a processor.
>>>>Now input attenuator, some buttons, simple power supply,
>>>>and perhaps the most expensive the case.
>>>>Some connectors.
>>>>Some input protection.
>>>>Anybody have any design ideas?
>>>
>>>How about the trigger circuitry? I think that might be the
>>>challenge, and a quite difficult one without proper test equipment.
>>>;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Best regards,
>>>Spehro Pefhany
>>
>>It's one of those circular things...
>>Like the time I needed a hammer to fix my only broken hammer.
>>
>>One needs a good scope to make a good scope. :(
>>Oh wait..I'd believe this more...
>>One needs an excellent scope to make a good scope..
>
> No, if that was so then there would be nothing ever.
> the digital part can be 100% simulated anyways, and the analog part
> too. A few tricks you must have aquired yourself over time.
> If it displays a 50MHz square wave from some chip output, without
> shoots and stuff, you are getting closer to something you could use
> for power suplies and normal uc I think?
Say what you will, good attenuators from DC to 100 MHz are not all
that difficult. DC to 1GHz are more difficult. DC to 10 GHz are
really challenging (and beyond me).
If you don't believe me try it. Personally, i would rather beg,
buy, "borrow", or salvage one.
D from BC
It's a "I wanna..I wannna" new toy type of thing with me and DSO's.
Getting an old dusty 400Mhz Tek2465B is just ..yawnnn ... nothing
new..just a tool..
Wellll... the DSO will become just a tool (or bench decoration) once
I start saying "wtf! That's a bullshit rise time!"
I recall trying a DSO in 1998..
I looked for the games button :)
You know..maybe space invaders or pong on the scope :P
Nowadays... I have to wonder if I can get new ringtones off the
internet for a DSO :)
But seriously..
Jumping to plan B sounds good.. Analog scope for smps design. :)
Thanks
I'll get a DSO when a project pops up that's best with one.
No pretty colour waveforms or digital flare and glitter today :(...
D from BC
dun...@boughen.com.au
> On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 19:05:38 GMT, D from BC <myrealaddr...@comic.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I want a scope for Christmas :)
> >I have a $2000.00CAD (including expenses) budget for a new or used
> >oscilloscope.
> >I tend to do smps and uC projects.
>
>
> >I've been browsing Ebay.
> >I've been looking at Tek scopes from the 90's.
> >A Tek 2465 for $66 bucks ..that's scary.... :O
>
> >D from BC
>
>
> Instek GDS2204 DSO 200Mhz 4ch at ~$1600.00
> EZ Digital DS1250 DSO 250Mhz 2ch at ~$2000.00
> Rigol DS5202CA DSO 200Mhz 2ch at ~$2000.00
> Tektronics TDS2022B DSO 200Mhz 2ch at ~$1800.00
> PICO Tech. PC based oscilloscope 3206 200Mhz 2ch at ~1500.00
>
> Should be all colour displays.
> Prices from 1st find off Google
>
> At current... for 200Mhz BW... price ~= BW*10
> I sense this is the current knee region.
> Any more BW and the price starts to sharply rise.
>
> depth may be the better deal.
>
You might be interested in the Rigol DS1202CA, 200MHz, 2GS/s real-
time, 2ch, color with 10k of memory (single channel or 5+5k 2ch.).
They are just new to the market and remarkably similar to the Agilent
5000 series scopes. I took one along to a calibration lab today to
get an unbiased opinion and was plesantly suprised with the results.
The 200MHz bandwidth was actually 224MHz in real-time sampling (2GS/s)
and 379MHz in equivelent sampling (25GS/s). The frequency counter and
from that the timebase was accurate within 0.00001% and the voltage
less than 2%. The manual was well written with no hint of "chinglish"
and it was the first digital oscilloscope they had ever seen that had
an option to change skins! The only thing they could fault with it
was when displaying an AM modulated waveform the gridlines were at the
back of the trace and there was no option to overlay the grid on top
of the solid waveform. I will send the feedback to the factory though
and I'm sure that will just be a firmware upgrade.
You should be able to pick one of these up for the same or less than
the Tek TDS2022B and from what I saw today you'd get a much better
instrument.
Duncan
Joerg
You can sometimes get older TDS scopes cheap off EBay. Once I was
tempted. Sad actually, a woman was selling it because her dad had passed
away. But I didn't bid because I got burned too many times by the
switcher noise out of these scopes. The deal was good though except that
the old TDS scopes didn't not have good connectivity. But for digital
work where you just need to diagnose a problem they are good.
mi...@sushi.com
wrote:
> D from BC wrote:
> > On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 17:47:33 GMT, Joerg
Have you ever noticed that those who deisgn switchers hate them the
most? ;-) When someone tells me the size of an inductor, I say "No,
that inductor is as big as a house, at least according to my AM
radio." The wall wart crowd has discovered switchers, and boy do they
sing.
I downloaded that Hameg catalog. Can you start another thread and
explain the nuances of their scopes. [Anyone can talk specs, but there
is nothing like hands on knowledge.]
I personally have a problem buying gear that isn't Tek or HP
(Agilent). It is a lot like "nobody got fired for buying IBM"
mentality. Now I do have Fluke and Keithley gear, but I think that is
it for non HP/Tek stuff. [OT, but wavetek gear has been nothing but
trouble.]
Joerg
I like switchers because I design them. But it blows my gasket if I find
expensive gear that shows some level of incompetence. Ok, on a $20 clock
radio I won't complain but when it's lab gear which commands a princely
sum I will.
> I downloaded that Hameg catalog. Can you start another thread and
> explain the nuances of their scopes. [Anyone can talk specs, but there
> is nothing like hands on knowledge.]
>
I am not the right guy for that, I only own a really old Hameg, 30+
years. Have used some others though, sometimes wished they were mine.
Works like on day one, has been through a lot of abuse when I was a kid.
Amazing. Over at the German d.s.e. newsgroup there are lots of Hameg
users but the threads there aren't in English.
> I personally have a problem buying gear that isn't Tek or HP
> (Agilent). It is a lot like "nobody got fired for buying IBM"
> mentality. Now I do have Fluke and Keithley gear, but I think that is
> it for non HP/Tek stuff. [OT, but wavetek gear has been nothing but
> trouble.]
>
I used to be the same but when HP started outsourcing designs to
Yokogawa this fairyland thinking began to crumble. After the last run-in
with TDS noise I have no qualms anymore whatsoever to buy from any other
source. GW-Instek was the most recent and won't be the last one. I
expected nice quality and they delivered nice quality. My message to the
"big two" is this: Don't rest on your laurels, they wither away faster
than you think. Look at Detroit for classic examples.
mi...@sushi.com
wrote:
I've used the YHP stuff. I thought it was OK. The 4195 comes to mind.
I'm sure you will recall the Sony/Tek joint ventures. Two good
companies merge to sell junk.
I see Instek has a presence in Chino. That's a good sign. he nice
thing about HP gear is the number of people out there that can fix it.
Joerg
[...]
>
> I've used the YHP stuff. I thought it was OK. The 4195 comes to mind.
> I'm sure you will recall the Sony/Tek joint ventures. Two good
> companies merge to sell junk.
>
> I see Instek has a presence in Chino. That's a good sign. he nice
> thing about HP gear is the number of people out there that can fix it.
>
However, the US mfgs have to become a bit trigger-happy when it comes to
calling something out of support. With some stuff you'll be on your won.
Recently I had to repair the old 4191 here. Works fine again and
calibrated ok but it was no fun (got a back pain because it's so heavy).
mi...@sushi.com
wrote:
In the bay area, there are a few people known for HP repair. Even if
you can get a service manual, much gear requires special items just to
do the repair. The HP 8660C I have is a good example. There are
extender cards needed if you want to probe modules while it is
running. A shop in Morgan Hill has all the toys to do this, and the
cost was reasonable.
Joerg
Yeah, you can get almost anything and any service in the Bay Area. That
sometimes makes me envious but then again I don't want to spend a
million Dollars on a rickety shack next to a busy road ;-)
D from BC
wrote:
>I want a scope for Christmas :)
>I have a $2000.00CAD (including expenses) budget for a new or used
>oscilloscope.
>I tend to do smps and uC projects.
>
>Any suggests of what to look for?
>
>I've been browsing Ebay.
>I've been looking at Tek scopes from the 90's.
>A Tek 2465 for $66 bucks ..that's scary.... :O
>
>
>D from BC
I've been doing a little analog scope shopping.
I find Ebay scopes often too creepy to buy.
If I'm going to spend $100 on shipping... It better work. Otherwise
I'd rather spend $100 on shipping a "new" scope.
Analog scopes are not totally out of production yet!
The Iwatsu ss-7847A 470Mhz 4ch analog scope..
One site has it listed at ~$2500.00US. (over budget but interesting)
http://www.iti.iwatsu.co.jp/e/products/ss/ss_top_e.html
Something like that avoids the: "Surprise! ..It's a dud" with an old
dubious $500 Ebay Tek2465B 400Mhz 4 ch with the knobs falling off.
On Ebay somebody has a Iwatsu SS7840 listed but they are also calling
it a Lecroy LA314...
Iwatsu SS7840 = Lecroy LA314 ?? True?
The Lecroy LA314H analog scope (470Mhz, 4ch) is discontinued.
D from BC
Nico Coesel
I have that oscilloscope (rebranded as Lecroy indeed, but the inside
says Iwatsu) and I must say I like it very much. I paid 350 euro for
it last year. I think it will match up to the Tek2465.
D from BC
wrote:
I think the Tek 2465 is from the 90's.... alot of abuse and use can
happen in 17 years...
350 Euro!! = $484 Canadian.. for a Lecroy analog LA314H @470Mhz4ch
...wow!
Did you get that new? Used? Refurbished? Ebay auction?
Is that the going price?
For it's BW ...that price is about 10x cheaper than comparable digital
scopes.
D from BC
Nico Coesel
It was used, some signs of wear. I spotted it on an online second hand
trading website.
>Is that the going price?
I don't think so. I consider myself lucky :-) But you'll never know.
Sometimes good offers turn up on Ebay as well. If you setup a search
you'll receive an e-mail when something interesting is being offered.
Patience is often rewarded.
BTW, Teknet if offering an SS7840 (400MHz) for US$ 1958.- including
probes on Ebay right now.
David L. Jones
> On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 19:05:38 GMT, D from BC <myrealaddr...@comic.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I want a scope for Christmas :)
> >I have a $2000.00CAD (including expenses) budget for a new or used
> >oscilloscope.
> >I tend to do smps and uC projects.
>
> >Any suggests of what to look for?
>
> >I've been browsing Ebay.
> >I've been looking at Tek scopes from the 90's.
> >A Tek 2465 for $66 bucks ..that's scary.... :O
>
> >D from BC
>
> I've been doing a little analog scope shopping.
> I find Ebay scopes often too creepy to buy.
> If I'm going to spend $100 on shipping... It better work. Otherwise
> I'd rather spend $100 on shipping a "new" scope.
>
> Analog scopes are not totally out of production yet!
Indeed not. Hameg make some very fine analog scopes, and their analog/
digital combi-scopes are excellent. They come up on eBay from time to
time.
Dave.
D from BC
wrote:
Yeah...I saw that too.
I emailed Iwatsu to try and get MSRP's on their SS line including the
Iwatsu SS-7840 analog scope.
If the new price is not much more, I'd rather get new than something
that's been bouncing around from place to place in a courier truck.
Also, who knows if it was possibly hacked into operation by scope
tech's without a schematic.
Other possibilities are coffee spilled on it.. Irradiated in a nuclear
lab...Used in a corrosive gas environment... other wacky environments
:P
What tops the Iwatsu SS-7840 on Ebay is the guy selling the Iwatsu
TS-8500 500Mhz analog storage oscilloscope.. $2834.00Can
Iwastsu currently produces a faster 600Mhz version and their top of
the line analog storage oscilloscope is 1Ghz.
Some nifty CRT technology used for the storage effect.
I'm wondering if Iwatsu might be one of the last to produce state of
the art CRT analog oscilloscopes..
IFAIK Tek and Lecroy stopped analog scope production.
Since digital scopes are the lastest trend....
I'm guessing the best bang for the buck will be a newly produced CRT
analog oscilloscopes.
Get'm while you can??
D from BC
Ken S. Tucker
A few years back, I bought (brand new) a
KENWOOD CS-4125, 25 Mhz scope mainly
for audio and some radio work, ~$500.
Has most of the whistles and bells, works
good for me.
Ken
D from BC
Is the HM2008 a 200Mhz analog scope combined with a 200Mhz digital
scope??
At first glance it's not clear on
http://www.hameg.com/321.0.html?L=0
Hameg just gets into digital specs..
2Gs/s real time
2Mpt mem...wow! That's got many other digital scopes beat.
oooo...It's got FFT too. :)
On the datasheet BW it's expressed :
Bandwidth (-3dB): 2x 0-200Mhz
"2x" ?? wtf does that mean??
http://www.hameg.com/downloads/dblatt/data_en_HM2008.pdf
It would be explicit if I saw somewhere, "Analog BW = 200Mhz".
Now this scope is over $2000.00Can new, but I'll be watching for
resales..
D from BC
David L. Jones
> Hameg just gets into digital specs..
> 2Gs/s real time
> 2Mpt mem...wow! That's got many other digital scopes beat.
> oooo...It's got FFT too. :)
>
> On the datasheet BW it's expressed :
> Bandwidth (-3dB): 2x 0-200Mhz
>
>
> It would be explicit if I saw somewhere, "Analog BW = 200Mhz".
>
> Now this scope is over $2000.00Can new, but I'll be watching for
> resales..
> D from BC
Yes it is both digital and real analog. It says it has the same analog
as mode as per the HM2005-2
See the Analog/Digital button on the front panel.
Also note the separate Analog mode and Digital mode specs in the
vertical section. It is a 200MHz bandwidth true analog scope.
I have an older Hameg HM1505-3 analog/digital scope here at work, and
it's very nice indeed. Although on first glance it's not obvious how
to switch to true analog mode. This new model (which I have not used)
looks much more obvious with that big analog/digital button.
Hameg have an excellent niche here and seem to be sticking to it.
Dave.
mi...@sushi.com
Nah, you can get a rickety shack in the valley for about $650K. A
million gets you a shack in Marin.
This predates the net, but there was an old farm house on Montague
whose land eventually became an industrial park It sat for years with
bare dirt around it. Back then, your average silicon valley shack a
was about $250k, so somebody tagged it "Fixer upper $250k". If I
recall correctly, there wasn't even a door.
I say homes in the valley are free since the price just keeps going
up. Mine has increased by a factor of between 5 and 6. The interesting
thing about the bay area is location location location doesn't matter
here. If you look at the stats, you could have bought in East Palo
Alto or Palo Alto and made the same percentage increase. Of course,
when I would drive through the old whiskey gulch, I kept my head low
so it wouldn't get shot off. Now you wouldn't recognize the town, at
least parts of it.
The real real estate disaster is the central valley. It is foreclosure
city.
http://cbs5.com/local/local_story_282022014.html
JosephKK
From reading the datasheets it is a Hameg 2005 with a sampler system
added. Looks like a real value to me.
D from BC
I can guess how it's price adds up...
Say $1200.00 for the analog stuff..
Say $1500.00 for the digital stuff...
Total $2700.00Can...
I think the HM2008 sells for about $2000.00 Euro.
$2000.00 Euro = $2756.00Can <<< Hey ..very close to my guess.! :)
D from BC