$2,700 vertical sync repair (rant)
Greg Neff
scope is two months out of warranty. Probably something very simple to
fix. We called Tek, and they want a flat rate of $2,700 CDN (about
$1,800 US) to repair the scope, regardless of the fault.
We are now trying to see if we can get a service manual, or find
another company that will do the repair for a reasonable fee.
I can't believe that Tek gets away with this crap. A simple video
problem, and they want more money to fix it than it would cost to go
out and buy half a dozen colour TVs.
--
Greg Neff
VP Engineering
*Microsym* Computers Inc.
gr...@guesswhichwordgoeshere.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Spehro Pefhany
> Our Tek TDS620B scope just lost its vertical sync. Naturally, the
> scope is two months out of warranty. Probably something very simple to
> fix. We called Tek, and they want a flat rate of $2,700 CDN (about
> $1,800 US) to repair the scope, regardless of the fault.
Two *months* out of warranty!?!! If you are sure it's nothing you did to
it, call Tek and make a stink. They should fix it under warranty, don't
take that crap. Make sure you are talking to someone who *has* the
authority to direct it to be done fo free, if they don't have that
authority, all you can do is be firm with them until they give you the
contact information for someone who *is* able to do what you want.
Best regards,
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Contributions invited->The AVR-gcc FAQ is at: http://www.BlueCollarLinux.com
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Andrew Pearson
a $2000 + labour main board replacement. Thankfully the service agent
dicovered it was still under warranty. However, 6 months down the track and
I still have not got the cro back. Apparently I should have it back on
Monday. Will have to wait and see.
I am very happy with the purchase of my $35000 LeCroy oscilloscope...NOT.
Oscilloscope manufactures have the worst support network, if any at all.
Andy
Spehro Pefhany <sp...@interlog.com> wrote in message
news:IlaY5.76663$3u1.22...@news3.rdc1.on.home.com...
Tom MacIntyre
wrote:
Why not post to sci.electronics.repair? Someone there may have some
experience in this matter.
Tom
PS-Sync problems can be tricky...vertical deflection problems are
usually, but not always, relatively easy. $2700 Cdn is about 6 times
what I've ever gotten for any single repair on anything I've ever
worked on.
John Woodgate
<adpe...@optushome.com.au.remove_me> inimitably wrote:
>I am very happy with the purchase of my $35000 LeCroy oscilloscope...NOT.
>Oscilloscope manufactures have the worst support network, if any at all.
I suspect they rarely go wrong except through misuse, so there isn't
much incentive to put a sensible servicing arrangement in place for just
a few cases of user-independent fault. Not, even so, an admirable
policy.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. Phone +44 (0)1268 747839
Fax +44 (0)1268 777124. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk I wanted to make a fully-
automated nuclear-powered trawler,but it went into spontaneous fishing.
PLEASE do not mail copies of newsgroup posts to me.
Jan Panteltje
<sp...@interlog.com> wrote in
<IlaY5.76663$3u1.22...@news3.rdc1.on.home.com>:
>The renowned Greg Neff <greg...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> Our Tek TDS620B scope just lost its vertical sync. Naturally, the
>> scope is two months out of warranty. Probably something very simple to
>> fix. We called Tek, and they want a flat rate of $2,700 CDN (about
>> $1,800 US) to repair the scope, regardless of the fault.
>
>Two *months* out of warranty!?!! If you are sure it's nothing you did to
>it, call Tek and make a stink. They should fix it under warranty, don't
>take that crap. Make sure you are talking to someone who *has* the
>authority to direct it to be done fo free, if they don't have that
>authority, all you can do is be firm with them until they give you the
>contact information for someone who *is* able to do what you want.
>
>Best regards,
>--
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the
reward"
Yes I agree with this.
I once worked for Tek in Holland as a repair engineer, and QC also some time.
I think this is not what we got for it :-)
Now this is many years ago, and maybe things have changed.
Just make the biggest fuss you can, and, honestly, sue them if you can.
That price does not justify work done (probably a loose wire or a defective
component), and I seriously doubt it would need recalibration after the
repair.
OK, they may want to do that anyways.
But it is (that price) theft, they sold you the thing in the unspoken
agreement that repairs could be done at cost of parts and labour, not at some
idiotic astronomical amount.
If all else fails, I would (personally) repair it myself, but parts maybe
tricky to get.
Better sue them, or at least threaten to do so, others will benifit then too.
Regards
Jan
Jim Yanik
>Our Tek TDS620B scope just lost its vertical sync. Naturally, the
>scope is two months out of warranty. Probably something very simple to
>fix. We called Tek, and they want a flat rate of $2,700 CDN (about
>$1,800 US) to repair the scope, regardless of the fault.
>
>We are now trying to see if we can get a service manual, or find
>another company that will do the repair for a reasonable fee.
>
There are NO service manuals available from TEK.Even the TEK field offices
did not have any.They are totally serviced by module exchange.Although the
US military forced TEK to provide complete -service- manuals for an earlier
TDS scope,IIRC,it was the 420. So,if the US military uses the TDS620B,then
there will be a service manual for it,but it likely will not be sold to you
by TEK. TEK buys the video module from someone else,anyways.They go back to
the OEM manufacturer,I believe.
I worked for TEK for 21.5 years,until they closed all the field service
centers.
Jim Yanik,NRA member
Jim Yanik
<AJcY5.7824$lI2....@news1.rochd1.qld.optushome.com.au>:
>We had a similar problem with a LeCroy oscilloscope. The first quote was
>for a $2000 + labour main board replacement. Thankfully the service
>agent dicovered it was still under warranty. However, 6 months down the
>track and I still have not got the cro back. Apparently I should have it
>back on Monday. Will have to wait and see.
>
>I am very happy with the purchase of my $35000 LeCroy
>oscilloscope...NOT. Oscilloscope manufactures have the worst support
>network, if any at all.
>
>Andy
>
Tektronix USED to have the best support for it's products,but the
beancounters took over,and now there are only Beaverton and the DC field
office to get service from. And all their scopes are module exchange
only,no service manuals AT ALL,and most of the products in their catalog
are bought from other manufacturers and resold. I'm surprised that they
have any engineers designing products anymore.
Jim Yanik,NRA member
Jim Yanik
<3a315c63...@news.wolf>:
BTW,the module CAN be ordered on an exchange basis,and installed
yourself.If you are sure that is the problem.Tek module services can give
you an exchange price.I don't see exchanging the display module as
requiring a calibration of the scope.
However,if you attempted repair on it beforehand,all bets are off.
BTW,these scopes are cal'd on a PC based automated cal system,and really
cannot be calibrated manually.
Jim Yanik,NRA member
Spehro Pefhany
> PS-Sync problems can be tricky...vertical deflection problems are
> usually, but not always, relatively easy. $2700 Cdn is about 6 times
> what I've ever gotten for any single repair on anything I've ever
> worked on.
I've gotten more, but that's for fixing some ancient POS control
system where the manufacturer in some foreign land has gone TU. "We have
this Italian-made system with 20 PCBs, filled with SSI and MSI TTL, no
manuals, discrete wiring to control panels filled with thumbwheel
switches, and it quits every 3 - 4 hours, usually on the night shift,
idling the line". Last I heard it was still working with the same system,
no spares, and I *told* them to replace it with something more modern.
Best regards,
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Spehro Pefhany
> Just make the biggest fuss you can, and, honestly, sue them if you can.
I would take a lower key approach and just firmly insist on what is right.
The exact date of the warranty should not be that big a deal, you have a
reasonable expectation that it should not quit that soon. Car dealers do
this kind of unofficial warranty extension all the time. If it quits at
double the warranty period, then you may have to bite the bullet. Hell,
maybe you didn't get around to plugging it in for 2 months after it
arrived (and I'd offer that as a face-saving measure for them if it would
work).
Best regards,
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Andrew Pearson
John Woodgate <j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:unVuvOBy...@jmwa.demon.co.uk...
> <AJcY5.7824$lI2....@news1.rochd1.qld.optushome.com.au>, Andrew Pearson
> <adpe...@optushome.com.au.remove_me> inimitably wrote:
> >I am very happy with the purchase of my $35000 LeCroy oscilloscope...NOT.
> >Oscilloscope manufactures have the worst support network, if any at all.
>
> I suspect they rarely go wrong except through misuse, so there isn't
> much incentive to put a sensible servicing arrangement in place for just
> a few cases of user-independent fault. Not, even so, an admirable
> policy.
This was no user fault. If I pay 30k+ for a cro i expect to get some
reasonable support. As far as I'm concerned, 6 months is absolutly
rediculous. This is a very important tool to the company. Hiring a
replacement costs money and that eats into my budget and therefore makes me
unhappy.
Andy
John Larkin
<adpe...@optushome.com.au.remove_me> wrote:
>We had a similar problem with a LeCroy oscilloscope. The first quote was for
>a $2000 + labour main board replacement. Thankfully the service agent
>dicovered it was still under warranty. However, 6 months down the track and
>I still have not got the cro back. Apparently I should have it back on
>Monday. Will have to wait and see.
>
>I am very happy with the purchase of my $35000 LeCroy oscilloscope...NOT.
>Oscilloscope manufactures have the worst support network, if any at all.
>
>Andy
>
Andy,
LeCroy is semi-famous for taking months to fix things, and returning
them maybe-fixed. I've been PO'd at Walter ever since he cut one of
his product prices in half in order to kill my company.
John
John Fields
>
> The renowned Jan Panteltje <j...@panteltje.demon.nl> wrote:
>
> > Just make the biggest fuss you can, and, honestly, sue them if you can.
>
> I would take a lower key approach and just firmly insist on what is right.
> The exact date of the warranty should not be that big a deal, you have a
> reasonable expectation that it should not quit that soon. Car dealers do
> this kind of unofficial warranty extension all the time. If it quits at
> double the warranty period, then you may have to bite the bullet. Hell,
> maybe you didn't get around to plugging it in for 2 months after it
> arrived (and I'd offer that as a face-saving measure for them if it would
> work).
---
As usual, Spehro's (IMHO) the sensible route. You don't need to
make enemies at Tektronics by "demanding" anything or threatening
to sue. So far, It's been my experience with them that if you
have problems with their stuff they'll be happy to work with you
to resolve the problem(s) and try to make (keep) you happy.
--
John Fields Austin Instruments, Inc.
El Presidente Austin, Republic of Texas
"I speak for my company" http://www.austininstruments.com
John Fields
>
> Spehro Pefhany wrote:
> >
> > The renowned Jan Panteltje <j...@panteltje.demon.nl> wrote:
> >
> > > Just make the biggest fuss you can, and, honestly, sue them if you can.
> >
> > I would take a lower key approach and just firmly insist on what is right.
> > The exact date of the warranty should not be that big a deal, you have a
> > reasonable expectation that it should not quit that soon. Car dealers do
> > this kind of unofficial warranty extension all the time. If it quits at
> > double the warranty period, then you may have to bite the bullet. Hell,
> > maybe you didn't get around to plugging it in for 2 months after it
> > arrived (and I'd offer that as a face-saving measure for them if it would
> > work).
>
> ---
> You don't need to make enemies at Tektronics by "demanding" anything or
Bruce Lane
> Tektronix USED to have the best support for it's products,but the
> beancounters took over,and now there are only Beaverton and the DC field
> office to get service from. And all their scopes are module exchange
> only,no service manuals AT ALL,and most of the products in their catalog
<snip>
Absolutely agree. They used to provide support for any 'scope they
made for at least ten years, and there was (or so I'm told) a lifetime
warranty on their power transformers because Tek wound their own rather
than buy them from other suppliers.
Just a few months ago, I tried to get a service manual for an 11402
digital storage scope. Not the latest equipment, I grant you, but still
very usable. Get this: All support for the 114xx series was
"discontinued" at the beginning of 2000.
To make matters worse, I found out through another source that
Tek's newer "service" manuals don't even provide schematics. Just block
diagrams and troubleshooting flip-charts.
<rant> How the blazes am I supposed to fix a damn power supply
problem if I don't even have a diagram for the stupid thing? I'm a one-
man operation, business-wise, and I depend pretty heavily on older
equipment to keep going. I can't afford to shell out big $$ for
replacement modules even if they were still available.
</rant> Ok... Now that I got that off my chest, I can only say that
I'm going to look for a "parts" 114xx series mainframe to swap components
out of. It's about the only choice I've got left.
> are bought from other manufacturers and resold. I'm surprised that they
> have any engineers designing products anymore.
I'm surprised the new Tektronix even knows what an engineer is any
more! Have you seen their multimeters lately?
As far as I'm concerned, the real Tektronix, the one that was
created BY and FOR engineers, died the day they stopped making analog
'scopes.
--
Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy,
Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com
kyrrin (a=t) bluefeathertech [d..o..t] com (Reassemble to use)
"I'll get a life when someone demonstrates to me that it would
be superior to what I have now..." (Taki Kogoma, aka Gym Z. Quirk)
John Woodgate
<adpe...@optushome.com.au.remove_me> inimitably wrote:
>
>John Woodgate <j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:unVuvOBy...@jmwa.demon.co.uk...
>> <AJcY5.7824$lI2....@news1.rochd1.qld.optushome.com.au>, Andrew Pearson
>> <adpe...@optushome.com.au.remove_me> inimitably wrote:
>> >I am very happy with the purchase of my $35000 LeCroy oscilloscope...NOT.
>> >Oscilloscope manufactures have the worst support network, if any at all.
>>
>> I suspect they rarely go wrong except through misuse, so there isn't
>> much incentive to put a sensible servicing arrangement in place for just
>> a few cases of user-independent fault. Not, even so, an admirable
>> policy.
>
>This was no user fault. If I pay 30k+ for a cro i expect to get some
>reasonable support. As far as I'm concerned, 6 months is absolutly
>rediculous. This is a very important tool to the company. Hiring a
>replacement costs money and that eats into my budget and therefore makes me
>unhappy.
>
policy'.
Paul Grohe
in the newsgroup sci.electronics.design,
Bruce Lane <spam...@buzz.off>
from Blue Feather Technologies thoughtfully posted:
> Absolutely agree. They used to provide support for any 'scope they
> made for at least ten years, and there was (or so I'm told) a lifetime
> warranty on their power transformers because Tek wound their own rather
> than buy them from other suppliers.
*IF* they even have "power transformers" anymore....mostly
switchers now.
I would be *VERY* interested in the actual text of that "10 year"
statement (see below).
> Just a few months ago, I tried to get a service manual for an 11402
> digital storage scope. Not the latest equipment, I grant you, but still
> very usable. Get this: All support for the 114xx series was
> "discontinued" at the beginning of 2000.
Damn! We have a ton of those...and they are always blowing power
supplies or have some exotic "dig-uh-tul" failure..
> To make matters worse, I found out through another source that
> Tek's newer "service" manuals don't even provide schematics. Just block
> diagrams and troubleshooting flip-charts.
THey just replace boards - nobody goes to component level except
the hobbyists that acquire the carcasses after the original
owners dump it on EBAY after getting a repair quote.
> <rant> How the blazes am I supposed to fix a damn power supply
> problem if I don't even have a diagram for the stupid thing? I'm a one-
> man operation, business-wise, and I depend pretty heavily on older
> equipment to keep going. I can't afford to shell out big $$ for
> replacement modules even if they were still available.
At least the older (70's era) equipment had a good amount of "off
the shelf" components in them. Even if the component was a
custom, the manuals were detailed enough that a suitable
"kludges" could be made with available components.
> </rant> Ok... Now that I got that off my chest, I can only say that
> I'm going to look for a "parts" 114xx series mainframe to swap components
> out of. It's about the only choice I've got left.
Here's my <rant>:
Our cal lab has a half dozen 2465's sidelined on a shelf - all
with the same problem - bad U401's. These are the custom vertical
deflection "hybrid" IC's.
Guesswhat??? Tek no longer supports the 2465 - no parts
available....sorry....(have you looked at our new DSO's?? They're
betterer..)
We bought a batch of 2465B's when they were being discontinued to
"load up" on the last good analog scope. We got them brand new
from Tek and at *full* retail price. This was only a couple of
years ago ('95?)!
Within the last few years, these scopes have been dropping like
flies - and all with the same problem - subtle vertical
compression (1 division down, 0.8 divisions up) or outright
vertical deflection failure (blank screen).
In the past, the tag came back "Bad U401 R/R Cal'd Good". Now
they come back "Bad U401 - cannot get parts - scrap". Scrap!?!?!?
Some of them still have the protective plastic film on the
nameplate!! They're too young to die!!!
Anybody have a lead on a supply of U401's???
BTW: If anyone has 2465's, keep an eye on the vertical
calibration. Make sure 4V @ 1V/Div really defelcts 4 divisions in
both the upper and lower extremes of the screen. A typical
failure would show 4 divisions in the bottom and 3 to 3.5
divisions in the top. A real subtle screw if you are not
regularly looking at waveforms that would reveal a nonlinearity
(like digital signals).
> As far as I'm concerned, the real Tektronix, the one that was
> created BY and FOR engineers, died the day they stopped making analog
> 'scopes.
Yup. Sad. Yet we still have the old 475 or 7000 series scopes
floating around still happily chugging away just like they did 20
years ago. Guess what has been pulled off the back shelves to
cover for the failing 2465's....
<insert "Another one bites the dust" theme here>
Cheers,
Paul Grohe
Jan Panteltje
<gr...@galaxy.nsc.com> wrote in <l1r33t8fe0idqbduj...@4ax.com>:
>Our cal lab has a half dozen 2465's sidelined on a shelf - all
>with the same problem - bad U401's. These are the custom vertical
>deflection "hybrid" IC's.
>
Are you sure that is a chip? is it not simply a resistor on ceramic?
Not so sure about the 2465, think I worked on the 32?? 100MHz dual
digital storage when at Tek, these (whatever the number was) had ceramic
resistors in the output deflection stage, which could perhaps be replaced
by normal ones.
mm just guessing.
Regards
Jan
>
>Cheers,
>Paul Grohe
>
>
Jan Panteltje
<spam...@buzz.off> wrote in <MPG.149b6e62b...@news.qwest.net>:
Agreed, when looking for a scope (new), better find a company that gives
service.
And if not, at least one that provides decent documentation, and parts.
Their (Tek's) digital scopes are not really that good of a replacement for
analog ones.
I had problems with noise on the input channels of some model.
Of cause this all means the world is coming to an end ;-)
Hopefully some company in China or that area will make a 300$ clone of the
latest tek, so you can have 2 spares.
I am not kidding about that.
Happend to IBM PC's, why not to scopes?
There is nothing mystical about tek's technology, in the technological sense.
So hopefully they read this in China.
hey guys , how about some reverse engineering;-)
Regards
Jan
Jim Yanik
<l1r33t8fe0idqbduj...@4ax.com>:
I think you mean the Horizontal output IC.that's the one TEK had problems
with.
BTW,TEK doesn't design their own power supplies anymore,they buy them from
some other company.They are intended as exchange or just replace type
'repair'.
FYI,many of the TDS scope modules can be EXCHANGED,or done as a repair and
return.The latter is not a good idea,as TEK has -lost- customer's
modules,and it takes forever to build a new one.They will NOT replace it
from their exchange inventory.You need to call TEK's module services and
ask for the exchange price for that specific module,not the whole scope.
Jim Yanik,NRA member
John Woodgate
less than USD2700, one could probably take a good U401, characterize it
and develop a substitute.
Russ.Shaw
using hot glue:)
Paul Grohe wrote:
>
> Yup. Sad. Yet we still have the old 475 or 7000 series scopes
> floating around still happily chugging away just like they did 20
> years ago. Guess what has been pulled off the back shelves to
> cover for the failing 2465's....
>
> <insert "Another one bites the dust" theme here>
>
> Cheers,
> Paul Grohe
--
*******************************************
* Russell Shaw, B.Eng, M.Eng(Research) *
* email: rjs...@iprimus.com.au *
* Victoria, Australia *
*******************************************
Paul Grohe
in the newsgroup sci.electronics.design,
j...@panteltje.demon.nl (Jan Panteltje)
from thoughtfully posted:
The 2465B is the 4 channel, 450MHz Analog capable of doing some
crude automatic waveform measurements.
I have not had the privilege of digging around inside these
scopes, so I do not know what U401 looks like exactly. I believe
it contains the deflection plate pre-driver, output driver stages
and compensation networks - a very specialized device at 500MHz.
I really doubt if I could get the same signal fidelity from a
home-brew module. Because these scopes are used in our lab, under
ISO900x rules, they must comply to all the manufacturers original
specifications.
Whether U401 is active or passive does not matter. The
calibration subcontractor will not want spend hours on each scope
to "fix" these modules - and their cost to us would be more than
a used 2465 if they did. We need the original modules.
The fact that so many are crapping out shows a fundamental flaw
in the design, and it does not help that Tek is no longer
supplying these modules.
Our lab alone has about 40 of the various 244x and 246x series,
and the entire company probably has them numbering in the
hundreds. If Tek put it in writing that they support their
equipment for 10 years, then we have a very good case for.....
Cheers,
Paul Grohe
John Woodgate
<gr...@galaxy.nsc.com> inimitably wrote:
>I really doubt if I could get the same signal fidelity from a
>home-brew module. Because these scopes are used in our lab, under
>ISO900x rules, they must comply to all the manufacturers original
>specifications.
No, ***provided you document any changes properly***, you can alter
things as you wish.
ISO 9000 is about documenting things and respecting the documentation.
It doesn't have much, if any, impact on hardware. It's a 'paper and
people' thing.
Paul Grohe
in the newsgroup sci.electronics.design,
John Woodgate <j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk>
from JMWA Electronics Consultancy thoughtfully posted:
> <58363t4kp0vddkho6...@4ax.com>, Paul Grohe
> <gr...@galaxy.nsc.com> inimitably wrote:
> >I really doubt if I could get the same signal fidelity from a
> >home-brew module. Because these scopes are used in our lab, under
> >ISO900x rules, they must comply to all the manufacturers original
> >specifications.
>
> No, ***provided you document any changes properly***, you can alter
> things as you wish.
>
> ISO 9000 is about documenting things and respecting the documentation.
> It doesn't have much, if any, impact on hardware. It's a 'paper and
> people' thing.
And it's the documenting part that is a pain in the arse.
Each scope would generate 1/4" worth of paperwork "documenting"
the change.
It's bad enough when any piece of equipment comes up out-of-spec
during a routine calibration, which triggers a paper trail of
"what has it been used for, who used it and on what projects".
ISO is just one of the many "quality" procedures we have to
follow.
The less I have to deal with paperwork, the better!
Cheers,
Paul Grohe
Jim Yanik
The problem hybrid IC for the 2445/65 series was the HORIZONTAL output IC.I
know,I had to replace enough of them,while at TEK. The problem was that TEK
sold off its hybrid/IC manufacturing division to Maxim,who turned around
and said that TEK did not buy enough ICs to keep making them,so TEK sould
do a last-time buy. So,TEK had to cease making the 2400 series. And then
the parts from the last-time buy had a really high failure rate,and got
used up very quickly. Towards the end,TEK told us that they were not
selling the horiz IC outside of TEK,reserving it for in-house repairs.Then
TEK closed all their field service centers,and transferred the 2400 service
to a 3rd party cal/repair service.
I had warned my supervisor that TEK should not sell the Hybrid/ICO div,as
the parts were critical to many TEK products,but I doubt he could get upper
management to listen,they were not very good at that.
Jim Yanik,NRA member
Spehro Pefhany
> I had warned my supervisor that TEK should not sell the Hybrid/ICO div,as
> the parts were critical to many TEK products,but I doubt he could get upper
> management to listen,they were not very good at that.
> Jim Yanik,NRA member
Jim, is the information on the internals of these hybrids available?
Best regards,
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Greg Neff
jya...@iag.net (Jim Yanik) wrote:
> tmac...@ns.sympatico.ca (Tom MacIntyre) wrote in
> <3a315c63...@news.wolf>:
>
> >Why not post to sci.electronics.repair? Someone there may have some
> >experience in this matter.
> >
> >Tom
> >
> >PS-Sync problems can be tricky...vertical deflection problems are
> >usually, but not always, relatively easy. $2700 Cdn is about 6 times
> >what I've ever gotten for any single repair on anything I've ever
> >worked on.
> >
>
> BTW,the module CAN be ordered on an exchange basis,and installed
> yourself.If you are sure that is the problem.Tek module services can
give
> you an exchange price.I don't see exchanging the display module as
> requiring a calibration of the scope.
> However,if you attempted repair on it beforehand,all bets are off.
>
> BTW,these scopes are cal'd on a PC based automated cal system,and
really
> cannot be calibrated manually.
>
> Jim Yanik,NRA member
>
We couldn't bring ourselves to pay Tek's ransom. We decided to roll up
our sleeves and crack open the scope. The scope has to be almost
entirely stripped down to get at the display board. It took a while to
figure out how to get it apart. We did this *very* carefully. It's put
together with snap on parts, press fit parts, slide fit parts, and Torx
screws. The way stuff is packed into this thing reminds me of late
model car engine compartments.
Under a stamped metal heat sink, there is an ST Micro TDA1175P vertical
deflection system IC. Since this device gets hot (assumption based on
the fact that it has a heat sink), we are betting that this is the
likely culprit. The passive components and cable to the processor
board look OK. We are going to change the TDA1175P and see what
happens.
Stay tuned...
John Woodgate
<gr...@galaxy.nsc.com> inimitably wrote:
>Each scope would generate 1/4" worth of paperwork "documenting"
>the change.
>
>It's bad enough when any piece of equipment comes up out-of-spec
>during a routine calibration, which triggers a paper trail of
>"what has it been used for, who used it and on what projects".
Paul, I have some information from my ISO 9000 expert colleague which
might be quite valuable to you, but your e-mail address gives 'access
denied' (see below). Please advise.
QUOTE
----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<gr...@galaxy.nsc.com>
----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to galaxy.nsc.com.:
>>> MAIL From:<j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk> SIZE=1916
<<< 550 <j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk>... Access denied
554 <gr...@galaxy.nsc.com>... Service unavailable
UNQUOTE
apea...@juptech.com
they tell me the cro has been sent and they give me a consignment number
and the date they sent it. I then ring the freight company and they tell
me they have no record of the consignment number. Back to the service
agent and they tell me they sent the wrong cro (they currently have three
in their workshop, i am having second thoughts about LeCroy). They had the
courier company stop the delivery and then proceeded to send the correct
cro to me. BUT...the courier company stops the correct package when it
arrives in Brisbane and sends it back to the service agent because they
forgot to tell the courier that they had sent the correct package. Service
agent proceeds to ring me and tell me they have now sent the cro back
again. Well, I ring the courier back, they have no record of a package
being sent to me from the service agent......
I have a very expensive cro that is supposed to be stuck in transit. No
one knows where it is. And to top it off, this 'top of the line' cro has
been stuck in a workshop for six months waiting to get spares from LeCroy,
alongside three other faulty units. My patience is wearing thin, I have
tried every avenue to try and get my 'shitty' property back. I am thinking
it is time to proceed with legal action, the soft approach has failed.
Every day this cro is not in the workshop, engineers are wasting time
trying to fault find products they are developing or the company will have
to be wasting money on rental unit. This is ridiculous.
Andy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This Message is the private opinion, suggestion or question of the
sender and does not represent the views of Jupiters Technology.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Carney
been stripping these out for parts to fix others. Most have
the horizontal problem though. Most of the bad scopes are
over ten years old.
Jim Yanik
<_kaZ5.102146$3u1.27...@news3.rdc1.on.home.com>:
>The renowned Jim Yanik <jya...@iag.net> wrote:
>
>> I had warned my supervisor that TEK should not sell the Hybrid/ICO
>> div,as the parts were critical to many TEK products,but I doubt he
>> could get upper management to listen,they were not very good at that.
>> Jim Yanik,NRA member
>
>Jim, is the information on the internals of these hybrids available?
>
>Best regards,
Sorry,no.Company confidential.Most of that stuff,even us field techs could
not get access to it.They were custom IC chips bonded to laser-trimmed
thick-film ceramic substrates,or in the case of the 2465 horiz output
IC,just a custom IC. TEK developed the chip technology,then sold it off to
Maxim.Who probably does not even use it anymore.
JimYanik,NRAmember
Greg Neff
Greg Neff <greg...@my-deja.com> wrote:
(snip)
> Under a stamped metal heat sink, there is an ST Micro TDA1175P
vertical
> deflection system IC. Since this device gets hot (assumption based on
> the fact that it has a heat sink), we are betting that this is the
> likely culprit. The passive components and cable to the processor
> board look OK. We are going to change the TDA1175P and see what
> happens.
>
> Stay tuned...
*Fixed!*
While we were waiting for another TDA1175P chip to arrive, I decided to
trace the vertical sync signal back to its source, just in case the
TDA1175P didn't do the trick. After much poking around with a meter, I
found that it came from a 74F04 on the processor card. The odd thing
was that I was also measuring 10 ohms to ground. I lifted the inverter
output pin, and found that this ground short was inside the IC. We
replaced it, put the scope back together, and the problem was fixed.
Thankfully, we didn't pull off the original TDA1175P, so we didn't have
to worry about adjusting the vertical size and linearity. Those pots
are buried inside the scope when it is assembled.
Price for 74F04SC from Digi-Key (Qty 1): $0.76 CDN. Tek's markup for
parts and labour (if we had let them do it): $2,699.24 CDN, or a mere
355,163%
Spehro Pefhany
> Price for 74F04SC from Digi-Key (Qty 1): $0.76 CDN. Tek's markup for
> parts and labour (if we had let them do it): $2,699.24 CDN, or a mere
> 355,163%
(but Tek probably gets them cheaper than 50 cents US ea. ) ;-)
Congratulations!
Jim Yanik
>The renowned Greg Neff <greg...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>> Price for 74F04SC from Digi-Key (Qty 1): $0.76 CDN. Tek's markup for
>> parts and labour (if we had let them do it): $2,699.24 CDN, or a mere
>> 355,163%
>
>(but Tek probably gets them cheaper than 50 cents US ea. ) ;-)
>
>Congratulations!
>
>Best regards,
TEK does not build the monitors for their scopes.They buy them OEM.
Same for the power supplies.
I'm glad you fixed it for such a low cost!
John Woodgate
<j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk> inimitably wrote:
><bg583tcibvdoq0ji8...@4ax.com>, Paul Grohe
><gr...@galaxy.nsc.com> inimitably wrote:
>>Each scope would generate 1/4" worth of paperwork "documenting"
>>the change.
>>
>>It's bad enough when any piece of equipment comes up out-of-spec
>>during a routine calibration, which triggers a paper trail of
>>"what has it been used for, who used it and on what projects".
>
>Paul, I have some information from my ISO 9000 expert colleague which
>might be quite valuable to you, but your e-mail address gives 'access
>denied' (see below). Please advise.
>
>QUOTE
> ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
><gr...@galaxy.nsc.com>
>
> ----- Transcript of session follows -----
>... while talking to galaxy.nsc.com.:
>>>> MAIL From:<j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk> SIZE=1916
><<< 550 <j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk>... Access denied
>554 <gr...@galaxy.nsc.com>... Service unavailable
>UNQUOTE
Neither that address or the other one you gave me work! The other one
just re-directs to galaxy.nsc and fails:
Your message was not delivered to the following recipients:
GR...@GALAXY.nsc.com: 550 <j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk>... Access
denied
(original address: XXY[munged by me, JW,
to protect your privacy].gr...@nsc.com)
Jan Panteltje
<greg...@my-deja.com> wrote in <9162r3$25b$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>:
Congratulations, at least some of your study expenses back!
Regards
Jan
frankc
but it seems to me they are ripping the world off with overpriced crap.
Is it because they really put that much quality into them or is it just
greed and monopoly that keeps them expensive?
Spehro Pefhany
The big makers have abandoned the analog scopes to no-name companies. I
don't think a top-end scope is any more expensive in "real" terms
(inflation adjusted) than it was 30 years ago, but I don't recall real
numbers. Maybe $3000 US for a top end scope in '68?? That would be about
$20K now perhaps. Feel free to flame on these numbers, it's not something
I follow closely.
Frank Bemelman
frankc <fra...@NOSPAMsrv.net> schreef in berichtnieuws
3A3D3681...@NOSPAMsrv.net...
Well, a dead simple 20mhz dual channel analog + 2 probes can
be bought for hfl 1000,- (~400 US dollars) and for hfl.3000,-
(~1200 US dollars) you can buy a TDS210 which is a very nice
oscilloscope for that price, and comes with 2 probes as well.
I think oscilloscopes are quite cheap ;-)
--
Met vriendelijke groeten,
Frank Bemelman
(reageren per email ? verwijder dan de 'x' uit mijn emailadres)
Greg Neff
Well, I don't agree that there is a monopoly (at least not quite yet).
At the high end there is Tektronix, Agilent and LeCroy. For logic
analyzers there is Tektronix and Agilent. It's a little different once
you buy the equipment, because then they have you by the short hairs
when you need a repair or an upgrade.
The price of high end equipment rises almost exponentially. This is
not because it costs exponentially more to build. The problem is that
engineering costs and setup charges have to be amortized over a much
smaller number of units.
Also, marketing wants more money when they provide more functionality,
even if it costs no more to build. It's kind of like some software
packages, where you send money and then they send you a key code to
enable functionality that's already installed on your computer.
When all is said and done, the high price of high end equipment is not
a show stopper for us. We have found that over the long term these
pieces of equipment pay for themselves several times over.
--
Greg Neff
VP Engineering
*Microsym* Computers Inc.
gr...@guesswhichwordgoeshere.com
~^Johnny^~
Panteltje) did apparently write:
>Hopefully some company in China or that area will make a 300$ clone of the
>latest tek, so you can have 2 spares.
>I am not kidding about that.
>Happend to IBM PC's, why not to scopes?
>There is nothing mystical about tek's technology, in the technological sense.
>So hopefully they read this in China.
>hey guys , how about some reverse engineering;-)
REVENG plus E equals REVENGE !!!
--
-John
~^Johnny^~
did apparently write:
>There are NO service manuals available from TEK.Even the TEK field offices
>did not have any.They are totally serviced by module exchange.Although the
>US military forced TEK to provide complete -service- manuals for an earlier
>TDS scope,IIRC,it was the 420. So,if the US military uses the TDS620B,then
>there will be a service manual for it,but it likely will not be sold to you
>by TEK. TEK buys the video module from someone else,anyways.They go back to
>the OEM manufacturer,I believe.
>
>I worked for TEK for 21.5 years,until they closed all the field service
>centers.
How long ago did they stop furnishing service manuals?
The ISL at Lockheed used to have all the manuals, but then again, it
has been 19 years since I worked there, and i used to calibrate /
repair all the Tek and H/P scopes that came into the lab. The two
most common ones used by the flight line and engineering epts were the
535 and the 545A. Ancient stuff now. They shut her down (the ISL at
the Burbank, CA plant) in the mid-80's anyway. Too bad for all those
employees. There were several ppl in my dept who were just a few
years from full pension. :-(
This is disturbing news about Tektronics, though.
Why don't they just pot all the damn modules and be done with it?!
--
-John
Robert
~^Johnny^~ wrote:
> but then again, it
> has been 19 years since I worked there, and i used to calibrate /
> repair all the Tek and H/P scopes that came into the lab.
This explains it. Calibrate and repair? You mean read the flowchart designed for
8th grade education or less! What are you doing now?- Assembling lava lamps?