harnessing lightning, or not
Winfield Hill
with photo, at the CR4 forum.
http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/55751/Lightning-Arrestor#comment579837
--
Thanks,
- Win
John Larkin
<Winfiel...@newsguy.com> wrote:
You rate 3 "good" answers out of 14. That site has very high
standards!
Why not use the lightning to heat water? The impedance match is
potentially better, and it's easy to store hot water. We could throw a
neighborhood hot-tub party after every strike, every 40 years or so.
We don't get lightning here. I kind of miss it.
John
Winfield Hill
>
> Winfield Hill wrote:
>
>> My Maxwell capacitors hard at work energy from harnessing lightning,
>> see my post with photo, at the CR4 forum.
>> http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/55751/Lightning-Arrestor#comment579837
>
> You rate 3 "good" answers out of 14. That site has very high
> standards!
Yes indeed! My lightning answer, complete with photo and
calculations, is not yet a "good answer" because it didn't
get enough votes. Hmm, it did get one vote, was that from
you John? Thanks!
> Why not use the lightning to heat water? The impedance match is
> potentially better, and it's easy to store hot water. We could
> throw a neighborhood hot-tub party after every strike, every
> 40 years or so.
Aren't there serious problems with developing a high electric
field in water? I mean, above about 1V it wants to break apart
into H2 and O. And what about the electrode double layers?
I dunno, it'd need to be a tall 1MV / 100kA = 10-ohm resistor
with water cooling, or something. But if rated at a puny 1MV,
it wouldn't warm up much water, with only 1MJ of energy. Sigh.
> We don't get lightning here. I kind of miss it.
Yes.
--
Thanks,
- Win
BlindBaby
<Winfiel...@newsguy.com> wrote:
If it can make it from way up there all the way down to way down here,
it can certainly make it across any dielectric inside any cap, so you
guys are poking holes in the insulator layers to beat the band, in your
caps..
A cap to store SOME lightning strike energy would be about a 300' x
300' (or more) insulator plate of Delrin or Teflon, or an even thinner
plate of GLASS. The storage plate would have to be completely
encapsulated.
One ends up with a large, flat form factor Leyden jar.
Cydrome Leader
lightning sounds like a good way to destroy some otherwise really
expensive and fun to play with capacitors. Plus, if you think you can get
those made for only $5000 each, you're in for a surprise.
Anyways, go for the quarter shrinker, it's lots of fun.
I'd try to of your caps in series, center tap grounded.
be very wary of hysteresis when shorting out those caps too. the residual
energy stored in them is quite unsafe and "builds" rather quickly. I use
multiple pieces of solid 12 guage wire across my energy storage caps, just
to make sure. There's really no room for mistakes with such monsters.
Even if you're a cowboy and don't care about safety, consider the next
person that touches them by accident after cleaning up your mess.
Lastly, the 50uS lightning strike number is pretty meaningless, as that
won't be the timing if you're trying to charge hundreds of thousands of uF
of capacitor before they fail and short out.
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
--
Dirk
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show
John Larkin
Do the math on that, please.
John
Michael A. Terrell
Visit Central Florida in a month or so. We have storms with over
1000 strikes in a half hour.
--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.
John Larkin
<Winfiel...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>John Larkin wrote...
>>
>> Winfield Hill wrote:
>>
>>> My Maxwell capacitors hard at work energy from harnessing lightning,
>>> see my post with photo, at the CR4 forum.
>>> http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/55751/Lightning-Arrestor#comment579837
>>
>> You rate 3 "good" answers out of 14. That site has very high
>> standards!
>
> Yes indeed! My lightning answer, complete with photo and
> calculations, is not yet a "good answer" because it didn't
> get enough votes. Hmm, it did get one vote, was that from
> you John? Thanks!
No, sorry, I didn't register to vote. In fact, I don't register to
vote on anything, ever. I don't want to decide anything about other
peoples' lives.
>
>> Why not use the lightning to heat water? The impedance match is
>> potentially better, and it's easy to store hot water. We could
>> throw a neighborhood hot-tub party after every strike, every
>> 40 years or so.
>
> Aren't there serious problems with developing a high electric
> field in water? I mean, above about 1V it wants to break apart
> into H2 and O. And what about the electrode double layers?
I guess a little of the energy would go into dissolution. The fact is,
a lightning pulse is so short, with such a risetime, it will be hard
to steer into any load.
>
> I dunno, it'd need to be a tall 1MV / 100kA = 10-ohm resistor
> with water cooling, or something. But if rated at a puny 1MV,
> it wouldn't warm up much water, with only 1MJ of energy. Sigh.
Yup. Lightning is all show.
>
>> We don't get lightning here. I kind of miss it.
>
> Yes.
In New Orleans, you could sit on the Lake Pontchartrain levee and
watch massive thunderstorm fronts sweep in, with beautiful and noisy
lightning. It was usually warm rain and made warm puddles, so you
could sit there and get wet and really experience things.
Here we get pretty dramatic fog shows, some compensation.
John
Archimedes' Lever
Lightning: Smallest bolts are like 6MV. They drop down from a mile in
the sky. They can surely make it across ANY two terminal device you
think you can come up with. Unless you are separating the nodes by over
a mile.
My cap would flash over as well, but more would remain stored than in
any of the scenarios discussed here thus far.
No math required.
John Larkin
I doubt that. Show us some numbers. Like Win did.
>
> No math required.
Hand waving. What you mean is that you can't do math. Which means you
can't design electronics.
John
Bert Hickman
Win,
For short (a few usec or shorter) pulses, water is actually a very good
dielectric. Because of its high permittivity (~80), water is often used
as the dielectric material in high voltage, low impedance transmission
lines and interim capacitive storage units used in high-energy pulsed
power systems, such as Sandia's ZR machine. The shorter the pulse width,
the greater the peak voltage that can be supported across a water gap.
An empirical relationship was developed by J. C. Martin under a uniform
E-field over a range of voltages, pulse times, and electrode area based
upon his work at Sandia:
F = k*(t^(-1/3))*(A^(-1/10))
where:
F = the peak breakdown field (in MV/cm)
t = duration of applied voltage (in microseconds)
A = area (in square cm)
k = 0.3 for water (positive streamers – the normal case)
k = 0.6 for water (a special case where field enhancement is purposely
adjusted to cause streamers to form preferentially from the negative
electrode instead of the positive electrode)
For example, positive streamer breakdown field (F) for a pair of 100
square-cm electrodes in water, stressed by a 1 microsecond pulse should
withstand a field of ~189 kV/cm. If we used a 100 nsec pulse, this
increases to ~408 kV/cm, and to ~879 kV/cm for a 10 nsec pulse. YMMV -
media degassing (or outright pressurization) is essential to prevent
premature breakdown.
Considerably more detail can be found in "High Power Switching" by Ihor
M. Vitkovitsky, ISBN-10 0442290675, “Introduction to High Power Pulse
Technology” by S. T. Pai and Qi Zhang, ISBN-10 9810217145, and
"High-Voltage Electrical Breakdown of Water" by M. Kristiansen and L
Hatfield, ISBN-10 1934939005.
Breakdown behavior changes with longer (>10 microsecond) pulses, since
ionic conduction begins to alter the E-field distribution within the
gap. Metallic salts are often intentionally added to water to create
high power/high voltage aqueous dummy load and divider resistors for
pulsed power work. The electrolyte and end terminal materials must be
compatible for long-term stability. Some excellent on-line information
sources include a 5 page report from R. E. Beverly III & Associates and
a large (147 page) report from Sandia.
http://www.reb3.com/pdf/r_appl.pdf
http://www.ece.unm.edu/summa/notes/ESDN/ESDN%205.pdf
Let me know when you want to begin using that cap to do some serious EM
metal-forming/con shrinking... :^)
Bert
--
********************************************************************
We specialize in UNIQUE items: coins shrunk by ultra-strong magnetic
fields, Captured Lightning Lichtenberg figure sculptures, and scarce
technical Books. Please visit us at http://www.capturedlightning.com
********************************************************************
Archimedes' Lever
If lightning comes down here from a half mile up, it can certainly span
the distance between the nodes of any cap you can name, unless it gets
made as I described, with its nodes parted by vast distances. Again, no
friggin numbers needed.
And I did mention numbers. 6MV and up. Duration doesn't matter. What
matters is that the cap's insulative layer survives the charge event
without a plate to plate breach.
A huge, flat, encapsulated charge plate, placed flat against the Earth
plate will charge up, and hold charge, even after some flash over.
The closer the charge plate can be placed to the Earth plate, the
higher the final charge will be, IF and AS LONG AS there is ZERO punch
through on the insulator.
Since glass is the best, a thin glass plane mated to the charge plate,
and then encapsulated except for an in/out node is all that is needed.
The other plate is tied to Earth. The math is the plate area, and the
plate separation. The same math used for capacitance calculation the
whole time. If we can get the plate closer without a breach, the
capacitance of the assembly will grow.
I am not sure, but I am unaware that Maxwell, RIFA or anyone else is
making any 6MV caps, much less a 20MV one, which is what we would need to
catch a 6 to 10 MV strike.
So the goal must then be to KEEP whatever we can of a failed capture.
That would be whatever remains in the cap AFTER the strike and flash
over events pass.
Ideally, we would need a top plate encapsulating the charge plate of
about a 2 mile diameter with the node at the center, to actually "catch
the whole bolt". Again, if it can jump down here from way up there, then
we need a top plate at least as big as the gap is between down here and
up there.
Since we will never get a cap that big, my flash over scenario is all
we are left with.
That is, IF you want to actually capture the voltage levels of the
lightning,as well as the energy sent. Anybody can take a strike on any
cap and have it charge to its voltage.
Show me a cap than can take any lightning hit, and actually be charged
to the voltage that the strike was sent at.
Now, does my football field sized cap sound better?
A knowledgeable man would be able to weigh these principals and discuss
them, without much mention of math to any great degree at all.
Archimedes' Lever
You are wrong again, John.
And it is quite funny that this is the only 'hand' you have to wave.
It is also quite telling, however, that you wave it without any real
foundation whatsoever.
John Larkin
<OneBi...@InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:
>
> A knowledgeable man would be able to weigh these principals and discuss
>them, without much mention of math to any great degree at all.
Hilarious. Engineering is all about the math.
John
Greegor
Archimedes' Lever
Engineering conceptualization, however, is not.
Just ask A. Garrett Lisi.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/theory-of-everything.htm/printable
What he ended up with is as mathematical as it can possibly get, yet
how he conceived of it was not.
You lose... again.
Archimedes' Lever
wrote:
>What were these Maxwell capacitors originally built for?
Probably laser pulsers. There are only a handful of applications for
them.
Winfield Hill
>
> John Larkin wrote:
>>
>> Archimedes' Lever wrote...
>>>
>>> My cap would flash over as well, but more would remain stored
>>> than in any of the scenarios discussed here thus far.
>>
>> I doubt that. Show us some numbers. Like Win did.
>
> If lightning comes down here from a half mile up, it can certainly
I'm not going to write a treatise about it, but that's not right.
The entire 100MV or whatever isn't instantly available across any
spot along the path; instead it has to follow the rules of physics
(and electronics). We can analyze what happens in a small region.
First, it has a current waveform that rises rapidly, but not too
rapidly, to the peak current. This causes a voltage drop across
the local path inductance, V = L dI/dt. I say the current rises
not too rapidly, which is good for a carefully-designed setup, but
at up to say 20kA/us, it's certainly rapid enough to cause mayhem
elsewhere. Say there's a modest 1uH of wiring inductance, oops,
that's a 20kV drop, lasting 5us or more, long enough to create a
new discharge and a new undesired pathway for the continuing 100kA
lightning current. My capacitors have 40nH of inductance, limiting
voltage spikes from this part of the pulse to a manageable 800V.
Then there's the current charging the capacitance. As calculated,
200uF is enough to limit the net voltage rise to 10kV over the 25
to 50us of 50 to 100kA stroke current. During the event, there's
a dV/dt = i/C of up to 500V/us on the capacitor, which again, is
well under the Maxwell's rating. It's meant to be discharged in
as little as 6.6 us, a shorter time than we're considering here.
Under that condition its specified design life is 10,000 cycles.
So, no, I don't expect the cap to flash over. Bring it on!
--
Thanks,
- Win
Bert Hickman
> What were these Maxwell capacitors originally built for?
All sorts of high-energy pulsed-power applications. Typically, banks of
HV metal-cased energy-discharge capacitors are used to supply 10's to
1000's of kilojoules at 100's of kA - MA levels. Common examples include
pulsed magnetizers to charge rare-earth magnets, industrial
electromagnetic metal forming (and coin shrinking), laser flash tube
pulsers, Pulse Forming Networks (PFN's) for driving klystrons in RF
particle accelerators, kicker magnets to redirect the particle beam in
the same. Other areas include mundane cable "thumpers" to locate short
circuits in underground HV power cables, to reactive armor on tanks to
create a pulsed magnetic field to disrupt the supersonic copper metal
jet used in armor-piercing weapons, and EM weaponry such as rail guns or
electrothermal launchers. Basically wherever you want MW - TW of
instantaneous power on tap...
Winfield Hill
>
> Winfield Hill wrote:
>> John Larkin wrote...
>>> Winfield Hill wrote:
>>>
>>>> My Maxwell capacitors hard at work energy from harnessing lightning,
>>>> see my post with photo, at the CR4 forum.
>>>> http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/55751/Lightning-Arrestor#comment579837
>>
>>> potentially better, and it's easy to store hot water. We could
>>> throw a neighborhood hot-tub party after every strike, every
>>> 40 years or so.
>>
>> Aren't there serious problems with developing a high electric
>> field in water? I mean, above about 1V it wants to break apart
>> into H2 and O. And what about the electrode double layers?
>
>
> For short (a few usec or shorter) pulses, water is actually a very good
> dielectric. Because of its high permittivity (~80), water is often used
> as the dielectric material in high voltage, low impedance transmission
> lines and interim capacitive storage units used in high-energy pulsed
> power systems, such as Sandia's ZR machine. The shorter the pulse width,
> the greater the peak voltage that can be supported across a water gap.
> An empirical relationship was developed by J. C. Martin under a uniform
> E-field over a range of voltages, pulse times, and electrode area based
> upon his work at Sandia:
>
> F = k*(t^(-1/3))*(A^(-1/10))
>
> where:
> F = the peak breakdown field (in MV/cm)
> t = duration of applied voltage (in microseconds)
> A = area (in square cm)
> k = 0.6 for water (a special case where field enhancement is purposely
> adjusted to cause streamers to form preferentially from the negative
> electrode instead of the positive electrode)
>
> For example, positive streamer breakdown field (F) for a pair of 100
> square-cm electrodes in water, stressed by a 1 microsecond pulse should
> withstand a field of ~189 kV/cm. If we used a 100 nsec pulse, this
> increases to ~408 kV/cm, and to ~879 kV/cm for a 10 nsec pulse. YMMV -
> media degassing (or outright pressurization) is essential to prevent
> premature breakdown.
>
> Considerably more detail can be found in "High Power Switching" by
> Pulse Technology” by S. T. Pai and Qi Zhang, ISBN-10 9810217145, and
> L Hatfield, ISBN-10 1934939005.
>
> Breakdown behavior changes with longer (>10 microsecond) pulses, since
> ionic conduction begins to alter the E-field distribution within the
> gap. Metallic salts are often intentionally added to water to create
> high power/high voltage aqueous dummy load and divider resistors for
> pulsed power work. The electrolyte and end terminal materials must be
> compatible for long-term stability. Some excellent on-line information
> sources include a 5 page report from R. E. Beverly III & Associates and
> a large (147 page) report from Sandia.
>
> http://www.reb3.com/pdf/r_appl.pdf
> http://www.ece.unm.edu/summa/notes/ESDN/ESDN%205.pdf
Thanks, Bert, awesome and inspiring information. And I enjoyed
those reports. Hey, do you have copies of those books for sale?
> Let me know when you want to begin using that cap to do some
> serious EM metal-forming/con shrinking... :^)
>
> Bert
It's high on my list as soon as H&H AoE III is finished.
BTW, do you know about the water bridges?
--
Thanks,
- Win
Capt. Cave Man
<Winfiel...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> BTW, do you know about the water bridges?
Hehehe.. I have some Skylab videos on Laser Disc from NASA, of which
one is titled "water bridges".
Essentially 'fun with water and surface tension and surface adhesion in
space'.
Jeff's cousin? :-)
John Larkin
<bert-h...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Greegor wrote:
>> What were these Maxwell capacitors originally built for?
>
>All sorts of high-energy pulsed-power applications. Typically, banks of
>HV metal-cased energy-discharge capacitors are used to supply 10's to
>1000's of kilojoules at 100's of kA - MA levels. Common examples include
>pulsed magnetizers to charge rare-earth magnets, industrial
>electromagnetic metal forming (and coin shrinking),
What sort of switch would be used there? When I was a kid, I used to
make banks of electrolytics (from old TV sets), charge them up, and
dump them into coils using, pretty much, just wire contacts. They
welded shut every shot. I could magnetize most anything.
John
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
<jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
<jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
http://205.243.100.155/frames/Newgap2a.jpg
I'll bet that he gets more than one cycle on his MTBF 'numbers'.
Bert Hickman
>> k = 0.6 for water (a special case where field enhancement is purposely
>> adjusted to cause streamers to form preferentially from the negative
>> electrode instead of the positive electrode)
>>
>> For example, positive streamer breakdown field (F) for a pair of 100
>> square-cm electrodes in water, stressed by a 1 microsecond pulse should
>> withstand a field of ~189 kV/cm. If we used a 100 nsec pulse, this
>> increases to ~408 kV/cm, and to ~879 kV/cm for a 10 nsec pulse. YMMV -
>> media degassing (or outright pressurization) is essential to prevent
>> premature breakdown.
>>
>> Considerably more detail can be found in "High Power Switching" by
>> Pulse Technology” by S. T. Pai and Qi Zhang, ISBN-10 9810217145, and
>> "High-Voltage Electrical Breakdown of Water" by M. Kristiansen and
>> L Hatfield, ISBN-10 1934939005.
>>
>> Breakdown behavior changes with longer (>10 microsecond) pulses, since
>> ionic conduction begins to alter the E-field distribution within the
>> gap. Metallic salts are often intentionally added to water to create
>> high power/high voltage aqueous dummy load and divider resistors for
>> pulsed power work. The electrolyte and end terminal materials must be
>> compatible for long-term stability. Some excellent on-line information
>> a large (147 page) report from Sandia.
>>
>> http://www.reb3.com/pdf/r_appl.pdf
>> http://www.ece.unm.edu/summa/notes/ESDN/ESDN%205.pdf
>
> Thanks, Bert, awesome and inspiring information. And I enjoyed
> those reports. Hey, do you have copies of those books for sale?
>
>> Let me know when you want to begin using that cap to do some
>> serious EM metal-forming/con shrinking... :^)
>>
>> Bert
>
> It's high on my list as soon as H&H AoE III is finished.
>
> BTW, do you know about the water bridges?
>
Yeah - these are really curious. Under the right conditions, a
cylindrical 2-4mm diameter liquid bridge of distilled water can stretch
between two Pyrex beakers separated by up to 25mm. Just one more in a
LONG list of amazing properties of water. Although this phenomenon was
first discovered 117 years ago (by Sir William Armstrong), it has
recently been rediscovered, and studied in much greater detail.
There's an excellent YouTube clip by physicists Elmar C. Fuchs, Karl
Gatterer, Gert Holler and Jakob Woisetschlager (J. Phys. D: Appl. Phys.
41 (2008) showing a water bridge being extended using an adjustable HVDC
supply voltage of up to 25 kV. Also included are thermal and density
profiles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhBn1ozht-E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXJcSt8VYpo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLb5HmfiPpU&NR=1
In the above experiments, a current-limited HVDC supply was connected
between the two beakers, and a 42 nF capacitor was connected in parallel
with the beakers. The current was found to be about 0.5 mA. Instead of
using a string to start the process (ala Armstrong), the experimenters
increased the voltage between beakers while they were placed side by
side, until "Taylor Cones" (jets of electrostatically-repelled water)
were ejected from the surface, and bridging the gap. The researchers
also found that there was mass flow (usually from anode to cathode
beaker) accompanied by rotational flow near the outer surface of the
bridge. Interesting stuff!
Although I have all of the above books in my personal library, I don't
have any extra copies at this time. However, they're all currently
available via Amazon.
BTW, have you seen HV "air threads"? These were first reported by
amateur researcher Charles Yost and subsequently studied by Bill Beaty?
These tight filaments of air are probably related to ion wind... but the
real mystery is how they can maintain such a tight stream? I'm not aware
of any good explanations for these as yet. :^)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLG8gKb-lyk
Physics is fun!
John Larkin
Oh. Brute force. I could have done something like that, operated by a
hammer maybe.
John
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
<jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 15:40:30 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
><Zarat...@thusspoke.org> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 15:18:37 -0700, John Larkin
>><jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 15:29:53 -0500, Bert Hickman
>>><bert-h...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Greegor wrote:
>>>>> What were these Maxwell capacitors originally built for?
>>>>
>>>>All sorts of high-energy pulsed-power applications. Typically, banks of
>>>>HV metal-cased energy-discharge capacitors are used to supply 10's to
>>>>1000's of kilojoules at 100's of kA - MA levels. Common examples include
>>>>pulsed magnetizers to charge rare-earth magnets, industrial
>>>>electromagnetic metal forming (and coin shrinking),
>>>
>>>What sort of switch would be used there? When I was a kid, I used to
>>>make banks of electrolytics (from old TV sets), charge them up, and
>>>dump them into coils using, pretty much, just wire contacts. They
>>>welded shut every shot. I could magnetize most anything.
>>>
>>>John
>>
>>http://205.243.100.155/frames/gallery/newgap5a.jpg
>
>Oh. Brute force. I could have done something like that, operated by a
>hammer maybe.
>
>John
Mecury contactors ain't cheap, or small.
Bert Hickman
High power switches ("power modulators") can be very simple or fairly
esoteric. Lower power applications can use stacked IGBT's or SCR's.
However, silicon cost rapidly escalates for higher voltage and current
applications. Series stacks becomes necessary at voltages over 5 kV,
dynamic voltage sharing and simultaneous triggering adds significant
design complication, and current/voltage reversals may require
anti-parallel high current free-wheeling rectifiers.
Thyratrons can handle moderately high-current pulses at higher standoff
voltages, but they begin to run out of gas above 100 kA, and most
thyratrons don't handle oscillatory discharges gracefully. Other low
pressure switches, such as pseudospark and triggered vacuum gaps have
also been developed, and these can handle maximum currents to about 500
kA. Current densities for gas volume gaps (thyratrons, ignitrons, and
various vacuum triggered gaps) are limited to about 10+6 amperes/square
meter.
Higher power switching is commonly done via pulse-rated ignitrons (which
use refractory metal anodes to safely handle oscillatory current
reversals), triggered spark gaps, or electromechanical switches. For
hobbyists, a simple solenoid-driven switch, with massive brass (or
tungsten-copper or tungsten-silver) contacts are very robust, relatively
inexpensive, and very reliable. Very low-inductance "nail switches" are
used for at even higher power levels. These use a conductive "nail" to
puncture a polyethylene or Mylar dielectric sheet, creating a short
circuit between bus bars that are configured as a low-Z transmission
line. The result is a constrained, high pressure, low inductance, low
resistance arc.
Electrically- or laser-triggered spark gaps are used in applications
where tighter timing accuracy is needed or where multiple switches need
to be triggered simultaneously. These use air or another dielectric gas
under normal pressure, or higher pressures to increase standoff voltage.
Insulating liquids are used (such as mineral oil) to further increase
power density and hold-off voltage. Triggering can be via a high voltage
triggering electrode or a high-energy laser pulse. In comparison to
lower pressure gas volume switches above, current densities for gas,
liquid, or solid spark gaps are of the order of 10+12 Amperes/square
meter.
John Doe
> John Larkin <jjlarkin highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>> Archimedes' Lever <OneBigLever InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:
>>> A knowledgeable man would be able to weigh these principals
>>> and discuss them, without much mention of math to any great
>>> degree at all.
>>
>> Hilarious. Engineering is all about the math.
> Engineering conceptualization, however, is not.
>
> Just ask A. Garrett Lisi.
>
> http://science.howstuffworks.com/theory-of-everything.htm/printable
>
> What he ended up with is as mathematical as it can possibly get,
> yet how he conceived of it was not.
Could be... But how does that relate to you?
--
>
> You lose... again.
>
> Path: news.astraweb.com!border5.newsrouter.astraweb.com!npeer02.iad.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!post02.iad.highwinds-media.com!newsfe15.iad.POSTED!7564ea0f!not-for-mail
> From: Archimedes' Lever <OneBigLever InfiniteSeries.Org>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: harnessing lightning, or not
> Organization: Archimedes'Palimpsest
> Reply-To: My Assistant: Zhang Heng
> Message-ID: <chn7169rt9affegihjlcf37m0fvq81iv8k 4ax.com>
> References: <hv04sm02oh2 drn.newsguy.com> <it8716p5q9nhpkem0jcrd0avulmkv1h07v 4ax.com> <hv09cp01o4 drn.newsguy.com> <bja7169l297lq8cot5tot1keqo92am8b44 4ax.com> <llf7169li747p4g04oej6hnvg5m4m7g3a0 4ax.com> <m8h716hs7ppif8s1h3kgmk4gsou9cqudhs 4ax.com> <dhi7165eelcamupdvnjrla3jpfmp3j118s 4ax.com> <g3j716dvfh6c23q8olhhcj13dusdnqog7e 4ax.com> <cpk716hvqgse94okvm2iaq8itafurr1qs1 4ax.com>
> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Lines: 25
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 72.197.137.141
> X-Complaints-To: newsmaster cox.net
> X-Trace: newsfe15.iad 1276370822 72.197.137.141 (Sat, 12 Jun 2010 19:27:02 UTC)
> NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 19:27:02 UTC
> Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 12:26:42 -0700
>
BlindBaby
<bert-h...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Thyratrons
That is what the big boys use on the multi-Megavolt DC interties.
Stack of 'em in a 30' x 12' x 12' box suspended 90' in the air in a
VERY big room. They are like 7 inches in diameter and an inch thick (the
actual Thyratron medium).
John Doe
> Winfield Hill <Winfield_member newsguy.com> wrote:
...
>> I dunno, it'd need to be a tall 1MV / 100kA = 10-ohm resistor
>> with water cooling, or something. But if rated at a puny 1MV,
>> it wouldn't warm up much water, with only 1MJ of energy. Sigh.
>
> Yup. Lightning is all show.
But seriously...
Lightning never strikes the same place twice, because the same
place isn't there the next time...
--
> Here we get pretty dramatic fog shows, some compensation.
>
> John
>
>
>
> Path: news.astraweb.com!border1.newsrouter.astraweb.com!news.glorb.com!news2.glorb.com!Xl.tags.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.supernews.com!news.supernews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
> NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 12:14:36 -0500
> From: John Larkin <jjlarkin highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
> Subject: Re: harnessing lightning, or not
> Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 10:16:37 -0700
> Message-ID: <smf716dnt4o3qmmaq24deo0a3n1197nj9k 4ax.com>
> References: <hv04sm02oh2 drn.newsguy.com> <it8716p5q9nhpkem0jcrd0avulmkv1h07v 4ax.com> <hv09cp01o4 drn.newsguy.com>
> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Lines: 59
> X-Trace: sv3-H4sTaNwb39QQPqu8p5x7A5KyIvAFqWM9FQkpWDhyQ7yPgTk7jj+eJPr1qMaMqSaOdTMl/uZIWnYZBrS!s6FxLLJVsc+PjDlbHID+04SnPTM+aOYNoj75Pgv6LFA0WnTVP+l9RVBeNjqlPfHfTiAnooR0W70H!jzuo3Q==
> X-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/abuse.html
> X-DMCA-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/dmca.html
> X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
> X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
> X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
>
Grant
>My Maxwell capacitors hard at work energy from harnessing lightning, see my post
>with photo, at the CR4 forum.
>
>http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/55751/Lightning-Arrestor#comment579837
Does lightning have a return strike? So perhaps the bolt would ring and
want to suck much of the energy captured back out again.
Grant.
--
http://bugs.id.au/
Archimedes' Lever
>Archimedes' Lever <OneBigLever InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:
>
>> John Larkin <jjlarkin highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>>> Archimedes' Lever <OneBigLever InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:
>
>>>> A knowledgeable man would be able to weigh these principals
>>>> and discuss them, without much mention of math to any great
>>>> degree at all.
>>>
>>> Hilarious. Engineering is all about the math.
>
>> Engineering conceptualization, however, is not.
>>
>> Just ask A. Garrett Lisi.
>>
>> http://science.howstuffworks.com/theory-of-everything.htm/printable
>>
>> What he ended up with is as mathematical as it can possibly get,
>> yet how he conceived of it was not.
>
>Could be... But how does that relate to you?
Stay out of conversations in which it is blatantly obvious that you are
too retarded to grasp the depth of.
Archimedes' Lever
>But seriously...
>
>Lightning never strikes the same place twice, because the same
>place isn't there the next time...
You're an idiot.
There is a reason why there is no longer a restaurant on top of Mt.
Evans. That reason is because it DOES strike in the same place again.
After the third fire they decided not to rebuild again. That
determination was made decades ago. Lightning was the reason.
Archimedes' Lever
It is typically a dumping of electrons INTO the Earth. They don't
bounce back. Not rubber biscuits.
Archimedes' Lever
Although the space shuttle has recorded lightning strokes which also
had an upward going 'sprite' that rose above the atmosphere (at least one
visible layer). They have recorded many, in fact.
I have seen ball lightning twice in my life. Maybe they are little
mini black holes...
Bert Hickman
These stacked power switches for DC Interties are actually Thyristors...
modern optically-triggered SCR's. These replaced ignitrons in older
inverters.
Thyratrons are gas-filled electron tubes. Similar sounding but
completely different technologies.
BlindBaby
<bert-h...@comcast.net> wrote:
>BlindBaby wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 19:42:07 -0500, Bert Hickman
>> <bert-h...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Thyratrons
>>
>>
>> That is what the big boys use on the multi-Megavolt DC interties.
>>
>> Stack of 'em in a 30' x 12' x 12' box suspended 90' in the air in a
>> VERY big room. They are like 7 inches in diameter and an inch thick (the
>> actual Thyratron medium).
>
>These stacked power switches for DC Interties are actually Thyristors...
>modern optically-triggered SCR's. These replaced ignitrons in older
>inverters.
>
>Thyratrons are gas-filled electron tubes. Similar sounding but
>completely different technologies.
>
>Bert
Yes... I had a whole word typo. I read you writing thyratron, and
thought of the thyristors up at Bonneville. A bit of dyslexia there...
Paul Keinanen
>On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 10:58:49 -0700, John Larkin
><jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> My cap would flash over as well, but more would remain stored than in
>>>any of the scenarios discussed here thus far.
>>
>>I doubt that. Show us some numbers. Like Win did.
>
>
> If lightning comes down here from a half mile up, it can certainly span
>the distance between the nodes of any cap you can name, unless it gets
>made as I described, with its nodes parted by vast distances. Again, no
>friggin numbers needed.
>
> And I did mention numbers. 6MV and up. Duration doesn't matter. What
>matters is that the cap's insulative layer survives the charge event
>without a plate to plate breach.
>
> A huge, flat, encapsulated charge plate, placed flat against the Earth
>plate will charge up, and hold charge, even after some flash over.
>
> The closer the charge plate can be placed to the Earth plate, the
>higher the final charge will be, IF and AS LONG AS there is ZERO punch
>through on the insulator.
>
> Since glass is the best, a thin glass plane mated to the charge plate,
>and then encapsulated except for an in/out node is all that is needed.
>The other plate is tied to Earth. The math is the plate area, and the
>plate separation. The same math used for capacitance calculation the
>whole time. If we can get the plate closer without a breach, the
>capacitance of the assembly will grow.
If you manage to make some huge capacitor on the ground and connect to
an lightning arrester on top of a say 300 m isolated antenna tower,
the capacitor will sooner or later charge to the potential of the air
at 300 m (assuming lower leakage in the capacitor and feed line than
through the surrounding air). The lightning arrestor tip potential
would finally be about the same potential as the surrounding air at
300 m, thus, reducing the likelihood to that electrode, compared to
grounded 300 m arrestor. Thus you may have to wait for the hit quite a
long time.
If the lightning hits after all and the capacitor is charged, but
there is some flash over between the plates (perhaps only weak point),
the arc will burn as long as there is sufficient power to maintain the
ionization in the arc. With a large capacitor with a large charge,
there is going to be a large current maintaining the arc, hence
dropping the voltage across the plates.
When the voltage has dropped sufficiently, the current is no longer
capable of maintaining the arc and it will blow out. However, the
remaining capacitor voltage is now much less than the initial flash
over voltage, so very little energy can be recovered (energy
proportional to the square of capacitor voltage).
Why wait for the lightning strike ? There is a quite a steep (20-200
kV/m) voltage gradient in the air during a thunderstorm that could be
utilized. Benjamin Franklin essentially tried this. Using a balloon,
lift a string of series connected capacitors into the cloud and let
those capacitors be charged.
To collect enough charge, 2-3 balloons may be needed to suspend a
"collector" net between them. When the capacitors have been charged,
disconnect the "collector" from the capacitors and lower the balloons.
On the other hand, if there are high towers, in which the lightning
arrestor is frequently hit, why not put a current transformer at the
lower end of the grounded arrestor to capture some of the energy ?
Archimedes' Lever
wrote:
> will sooner or later charge to the potential of the air
>at 300 m
So you think air has a gradient voltage that is tied to altitude?
Where did you learn that at?
The node could be a ball at the center of the cap lid. It does not
have to be a tower. If charged clouds are passing over a 300 foot or
2000 foot diameter insulator down on the ground and a single node is at
the center, it will find it to be a nice attractor, and it will strike
it. a one inch spike would do it. No tower needed since there is no
nearby 'competition' as an 'attractor'. Any pointyness at all will make
for a huge gradient compared to anywhere else within quite a distance.
Granted, a tower would be nice, but should not be needed to grab the
attention of a charged cloud.
Greegor
wrote:
>
> >>My Maxwell capacitors hard at work energy from harnessing lightning, see my post
> >>with photo, at the CR4 forum.
>
> >>http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/55751/Lightning-Arrestor#comment579837
>
> >Does lightning have a return strike? So perhaps the bolt would ring and
> >want to suck much of the energy captured back out again.
>
> >Grant.
>
> Although the space shuttle has recorded lightning strokes which also
> had an upward going 'sprite' that rose above the atmosphere (at least one
> visible layer). They have recorded many, in fact.
>
> I have seen ball lightning twice in my life. Maybe they are little
> mini black holes...
A recent TeeVee documentary on lightning
showed how some guy with super high speed
photography was also able to photograph
lightning reaching up from various tall
objects on the ground.
Apparently much like the sprite lightning plentiful
above the clouds, this reverse lightning from
various tall objects on the ground is plentiful
but little known, and it had never been captured
in any photographs before, ever.
This "reverse lightning" might possibly
be of some value if you want to harmess
atmospheric static electricity.
Not as BIG as a full blown strike, but
it seems that if you put up a tower
this (invisible) lightning takes place
much more frequently.
BlindBaby
wrote:
>Apparently much like the sprite lightning plentiful
>above the clouds, this reverse lightning from
>various tall objects on the ground is plentiful
>but little known, and it had never been captured
>in any photographs before, ever.
It is like large scale Kirlian photography.
Any object that rises off the main homogenous 'normal flat' of the
surface of this spheroid will acquire a gradient with respect to an
insulted object up in the atmosphere. Clouds and water conduct, but the
air doesn't. So, a charge-up of the cloud occurs with respect to the
spheroid (Earth, in this case) Since it is conductive any release of
that charge will usually result in a 'full dump' of the entire charge
(most all of it anyway).
It will release from the charged cloud to Earth, but it is possible to
see tendrils (leaders) that traverse from other than flat Earthbound
objects (particularly upwardly pointy objects) up to the sky or
particularly, an overhead cloud formation.
Think of it like the leaders that form when you near the outside of a
plasma ball. You are an attractor, even though there is an insulator
between you and the potential you share the attraction with.
The electrons, typically move from the cloud to the Earth though,
because the Earth has far more available sinking mass than any separated,
charged object ever could. So the attraction is ALWAYS going to be to
the spheroidal mass unless the insulated, approaching object is bigger,
which only happens when planets collide.
This tells me that an asteroid that impacts Earth (then meteorite)
would have to have a lightning flash event to the ground at some altitude
prior to it's impact. Hard to catch though, with the super-heated
fireball being so bright.
In fact, anything previously charged or suspended in the air long
enough to gain sufficient charge will pass an electron 'packet' to Earth
as soon as it becomes able to do so, either by arc over or contact.
This is why sub-mariners (or sailors) catching winch lines being
dropped by helicopters ground it to the sub first.
BlindBaby
wrote:
>This "reverse lightning" might possibly
>be of some value if you want to harmess
>atmospheric static electricity.
ALL lighting, and certainly any that you would end up capturing,
regardless of what direction it was shot or where you caught it at, is
'atmospheric static electricity', silly man.
BlindBaby
wrote:
>Not as BIG as a full blown strike, but
>it seems that if you put up a tower
>this (invisible) lightning takes place
>much more frequently.
Yes. A pointed object makes for a high voltage gradient.
I have seen 'dull tipped' HV probes probe 50kV in a bath of dielectric
fluid, and arc a half inch through the fluid, to the tip, as the 'probe'
approached the HV node.
I have then seen that probe tip get changed to a sharply pointed tip,
and then seen the subsequent arc flash right through the fluid, and jump
2 inches through the air as well, to get to that 'probe tip'.
The fluid gets 'perturbed' in the first case as the tip approaches. In
the second case, it looks like an over-modulated ultrasonic bath, right
up until the arc jumps up and out of it!
Greegor
G > be of some value if you want to harmess
G > atmospheric static electricity.
Archimedes' Lever 72.197.137.141 Cox Oceanside
AL > ALL lighting, and certainly any that you
AL > would end up capturing, regardless of
AL > what direction it was shot or where you
AL > caught it at, is 'atmospheric static electricity',
AL > silly man.
G > Then what are you arguing about?
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
<BlindMel...@wellnevergetthatonethealbumcover.org> wrote:
>On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 02:51:18 -0700 (PDT), Greegor <gree...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>This "reverse lightning" might possibly
>>be of some value if you want to harmess
>>atmospheric static electricity.
>
> ALL lighting, and certainly any that you would end up capturing,
^^^^^^^^
Lighting? What a putz, DimBulb.
Archimedes' Lever
wrote:
>G > This "reverse lightning" might possibly
>G > be of some value if you want to harmess
>G > atmospheric static electricity.
>
>Archimedes' Lever 72.197.137.141 Cox Oceanside
Even your new client is lame, as is your method of quoting.
You and gmail should all take a fucking hike out of Usenet until you get
a brain on your shoulders.
>AL > ALL lighting, and certainly any that you
>AL > would end up capturing, regardless of
>AL > what direction it was shot or where you
>AL > caught it at, is 'atmospheric static electricity',
>AL > silly man.
>
>Then what are you arguing about?
Who is arguing, idiot. You stated that as if the downward firing
'type' was of some 'other' nature, not me. And the topic IS about
"harnessing" it, which infers doing work. Your remark suggests that you
think that the cloud level stuff is incapable of doing work and that the
ground strikes are capable of it. So, it is you that needs to clarify
what YOU think static is, and what you think large accumulations of it
can be used for. All that, long before you go talking about actually
storing some of it. You are the one that needs to tell us what YOUR
definition of static electricity is.
>
snipped link to primer that was not needed.
Beside the fact that your links carry little credence with me.
Like I said... a giant Leyden jar. That is what one ends up with.
Joerg
> On 12 Jun 2010 07:16:54 -0700, Winfield Hill
>
>> My Maxwell capacitors hard at work energy from harnessing lightning, see my post
>> with photo, at the CR4 forum.
>>
>> http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/55751/Lightning-Arrestor#comment579837
>
>
> standards!
>
> Why not use the lightning to heat water? The impedance match is
> potentially better, and it's easy to store hot water. We could throw a
> neighborhood hot-tub party after every strike, every 40 years or so.
>
>
I don't miss it, seen to much electronics come to grief from it. Hey,
why don't engineers at RF module manufacturers get it into their heads
that the first part after the antenna jack has got to be an inductor to
ground? Anything else will eventually go *PHUT*.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
Archimedes' Lever
<k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 11:55:53 -0700, BlindBaby
><BlindMel...@wellnevergetthatonethealbumcover.org> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 02:51:18 -0700 (PDT), Greegor <gree...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>This "reverse lightning" might possibly
>>>be of some value if you want to harmess
>>>atmospheric static electricity.
>>
>> ALL lighting, and certainly any that you would end up capturing,
> ^^^^^^^^
>Lighting? What a putz, DimBulb.
>
Why yes, you are, Williams. Mainly for bringing up an obvious typo.
Obvious to anyone that has seen any of my previous posts, where it is
spelled correctly.
Obvious to anyone with an IQ over 40. Most likely why you ruled
yourself out with your 'pussy boy wants to be in the group but isn't'
idiot mentality. Please, take your senile stupidity and go away.
Michael A. Terrell
Joerg wrote:
>
> John Larkin wrote:
> > On 12 Jun 2010 07:16:54 -0700, Winfield Hill
> > <Winfiel...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> >
> >> My Maxwell capacitors hard at work energy from harnessing lightning, see my post
> >> with photo, at the CR4 forum.
> >>
> >> http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/55751/Lightning-Arrestor#comment579837
> >
> >
> > You rate 3 "good" answers out of 14. That site has very high
> > standards!
> >
> > Why not use the lightning to heat water? The impedance match is
> > potentially better, and it's easy to store hot water. We could throw a
> > neighborhood hot-tub party after every strike, every 40 years or so.
> >
> > We don't get lightning here. I kind of miss it.
> >
>
> I don't miss it, seen to much electronics come to grief from it. Hey,
> why don't engineers at RF module manufacturers get it into their heads
> that the first part after the antenna jack has got to be an inductor to
> ground? Anything else will eventually go *PHUT*.
Yawn.
--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
<OneBi...@InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:
>On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 15:40:09 -0500, "k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"
><k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 11:55:53 -0700, BlindBaby
>><BlindMel...@wellnevergetthatonethealbumcover.org> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 02:51:18 -0700 (PDT), Greegor <gree...@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>This "reverse lightning" might possibly
>>>>be of some value if you want to harmess
>>>>atmospheric static electricity.
>>>
>>> ALL lighting, and certainly any that you would end up capturing,
>> ^^^^^^^^
>>Lighting? What a putz, DimBulb.
>>
>
> Why yes, you are, Williams. Mainly for bringing up an obvious typo.
You're a hypocritical putz, too, DimBulb.
>Obvious to anyone that has seen any of my previous posts, where it is
>spelled correctly.
Then why do you insist on doing the exact same thing, AlwaysWrong?
> Obvious to anyone with an IQ over 40. Most likely why you ruled
>yourself out with your 'pussy boy wants to be in the group but isn't'
>idiot mentality. Please, take your senile stupidity and go away.
AlwaysWrong is always wrong, as everyone here knows.
Joerg
> Joerg wrote:
>> John Larkin wrote:
>>> On 12 Jun 2010 07:16:54 -0700, Winfield Hill
>>> <Winfiel...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> My Maxwell capacitors hard at work energy from harnessing lightning, see my post
>>>> with photo, at the CR4 forum.
>>>>
>>>> http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/55751/Lightning-Arrestor#comment579837
>>>
>>> You rate 3 "good" answers out of 14. That site has very high
>>> standards!
>>>
>>> Why not use the lightning to heat water? The impedance match is
>>> potentially better, and it's easy to store hot water. We could throw a
>>> neighborhood hot-tub party after every strike, every 40 years or so.
>>>
>>> We don't get lightning here. I kind of miss it.
>>>
>> I don't miss it, seen to much electronics come to grief from it. Hey,
>> why don't engineers at RF module manufacturers get it into their heads
>> that the first part after the antenna jack has got to be an inductor to
>> ground? Anything else will eventually go *PHUT*.
>
>
> Yawn.
>
T'is what I did when I just encountered the umpteenth module where that
was done wrong :-)
Michael A. Terrell
Joerg wrote:
>
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> > Joerg wrote:
> >> John Larkin wrote:
> >>> On 12 Jun 2010 07:16:54 -0700, Winfield Hill
> >>> <Winfiel...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> My Maxwell capacitors hard at work energy from harnessing lightning, see my post
> >>>> with photo, at the CR4 forum.
> >>>>
> >>>> http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/55751/Lightning-Arrestor#comment579837
> >>>
> >>> You rate 3 "good" answers out of 14. That site has very high
> >>> standards!
> >>>
> >>> Why not use the lightning to heat water? The impedance match is
> >>> potentially better, and it's easy to store hot water. We could throw a
> >>> neighborhood hot-tub party after every strike, every 40 years or so.
> >>>
> >>> We don't get lightning here. I kind of miss it.
> >>>
> >> I don't miss it, seen to much electronics come to grief from it. Hey,
> >> why don't engineers at RF module manufacturers get it into their heads
> >> that the first part after the antenna jack has got to be an inductor to
> >> ground? Anything else will eventually go *PHUT*.
> >
> >
> > Yawn.
> >
>
> T'is what I did when I just encountered the umpteenth module where that
> was done wrong :-)
Yawn, as in: WHAT ABOUT ALL THE RF EQUIPMENT WITH A DC VOLTAGE AT THE
INPUT CONNECTOR?
Joerg
Gear out in the field typically never has that. I've done a lot of RF
designs and even more re-designs by now. The number of units that would
be DC-fed or have to provide LNA power was zero. Fact is, units deployed
in the south or on the island won't even live through the first year
with a nice big inductor to ground. Lightning strike into some fence out
there, voltage surge, somewhere above 100V the input cap decides it's
had it ... *POP* ... preamp and final TX amp are goners.
Of course, if you design sat-gear that's different.
Paul Keinanen
wrote:
>Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>> Joerg wrote:
>>> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>>>> Joerg wrote:
>>>>> John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>> On 12 Jun 2010 07:16:54 -0700, Winfield Hill
>>>>>> <Winfiel...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My Maxwell capacitors hard at work energy from harnessing lightning, see my post
>>>>>>> with photo, at the CR4 forum.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/55751/Lightning-Arrestor#comment579837
>>>>>> You rate 3 "good" answers out of 14. That site has very high
>>>>>> standards!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why not use the lightning to heat water? The impedance match is
>>>>>> potentially better, and it's easy to store hot water. We could throw a
>>>>>> neighborhood hot-tub party after every strike, every 40 years or so.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We don't get lightning here. I kind of miss it.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I don't miss it, seen to much electronics come to grief from it. Hey,
>>>>> why don't engineers at RF module manufacturers get it into their heads
>>>>> that the first part after the antenna jack has got to be an inductor to
>>>>> ground? Anything else will eventually go *PHUT*.
Some filtering would be required to keep out strong out of band
signals (such as broadcasting radio and TV or radar) from overloading
the front end. The inductor to ground would come naturally as part of
a parallel LC filter.
>>>>
>>>> Yawn.
>>>>
>>> T'is what I did when I just encountered the umpteenth module where that
>>> was done wrong :-)
>>
>>
>> Yawn, as in: WHAT ABOUT ALL THE RF EQUIPMENT WITH A DC VOLTAGE AT THE
>> INPUT CONNECTOR?
>>
>
>Gear out in the field typically never has that. I've done a lot of RF
>designs and even more re-designs by now. The number of units that would
>be DC-fed or have to provide LNA power was zero. Fact is, units deployed
>in the south or on the island won't even live through the first year
>with a nice big inductor to ground. Lightning strike into some fence out
>there, voltage surge, somewhere above 100V the input cap decides it's
>had it ... *POP* ... preamp and final TX amp are goners.
>
>Of course, if you design sat-gear that's different.
With microwave gears, in the cavity resonator, use a magnetic probe
(not capacitive probe) to connect to the amplifier input, since the
other end of the magnetic probe is connected to the case.
Michael A. Terrell
If they won't survive, why are there hundreds of Dish and Direct
satellite companies around here? Or line powered TV preamps? The only
RF equipment I've lost was due to a direct strike that scatter pieces of
the amplified TV antenna over about 1000 square feet. This is the
highest lightning strike are in the US.
I've had a 5 meter sat dish hit by lightning. I lost all of the LNAs,
but not one sat receiver. The biggest risk is poorly grounded systems.
Its amazing to see MATV or other head ends and equipment rooms with a
piece of 14 gauge wire looped around the room and connected to an
outlet. Then they think they are protected. You need a good, heavy
duty rack and a good grounding system. One head end ended up with a
ground rod for each rack, and bare 8 AWG solid copper wire. All of
antenna lines were rerouted to a 1/4" aluminum ground plane. It was
tied to the new grounding system. From what I heard, they never had
problems from lightning again, even though the tower has been struck
several times.
When I was repairing CATV headend equipment it was amazing how poorly
designed some equipment was. The best had a rf transformer at the input
for isolation. Some didn't even have a resistor across the input
connector to bleed off a static charge. The typical value was around
4.7K.
Another problem was thin steel chassis, held together by sheet metal
screws. The spot welded aluminum cases were better, and used PEM nuts
to secure the cover. The heavy case had a lot lower impedance to ground
than the cheap steel cases.
Joerg
Most of this stuff is nowadays wideband so you'll find low/highpass
combos. Or sometimes nothing. Lightning typically has most of its
spectral energy under 1MHz. Easy to muffle but many if not most
designers of RF module fail to do so.
[...]
Joerg
Because the LNAs protect them by dying in their place :-)
> I've had a 5 meter sat dish hit by lightning. I lost all of the LNAs,
> but not one sat receiver. The biggest risk is poorly grounded systems.
> Its amazing to see MATV or other head ends and equipment rooms with a
> piece of 14 gauge wire looped around the room and connected to an
> outlet. Then they think they are protected. You need a good, heavy
> duty rack and a good grounding system. One head end ended up with a
> ground rod for each rack, and bare 8 AWG solid copper wire. All of
> antenna lines were rerouted to a 1/4" aluminum ground plane. It was
> tied to the new grounding system. From what I heard, they never had
> problems from lightning again, even though the tower has been struck
> several times.
>
> When I was repairing CATV headend equipment it was amazing how poorly
> designed some equipment was. The best had a rf transformer at the input
> for isolation. Some didn't even have a resistor across the input
> connector to bleed off a static charge. The typical value was around
> 4.7K.
>
See? That's the stuff I also find and I bet your experience is more than
a decade ago. That would mean in a decade or more almost nothing has
been learned about lightning effects. What really irks me is that they
still don't seem to teach this sort of practical stuff at universities.
> Another problem was thin steel chassis, held together by sheet metal
> screws. The spot welded aluminum cases were better, and used PEM nuts
> to secure the cover. The heavy case had a lot lower impedance to ground
> than the cheap steel cases.
>
I usually have to deal with <gasp> PVC or ABS :-(
Spehro Pefhany
Active antennas (powered through the signal coax) are quite common on
aircraft navigation systems too, so splitters etc. have to be
specified with some care.
Archimedes' Lever
They are usually NOT exposed. ie under a sheath, nosecone, or dome.
Joerg
Then there has to be an inductive path to ground farther upstream, at
that amp. In aircraft electronics such stuff is usually done correctly
and they have to follow stiff standards. Other areas, not so much, and
there lots of them screw it up.
Joerg
How's that going to help against lightning effects?
Michael A. Terrell
Michael A. Terrell
What are they going to teach? It costs money to design hardened
equipment, and some bean counter is always saying NO!!! Companies that
are good at building hardened equipment treat there methods as
proprietary information.
> > Another problem was thin steel chassis, held together by sheet metal
> > screws. The spot welded aluminum cases were better, and used PEM nuts
> > to secure the cover. The heavy case had a lot lower impedance to ground
> > than the cheap steel cases.
> >
>
> I usually have to deal with <gasp> PVC or ABS :-(
Sorry, but I don't work with crap.
Archimedes' Lever
wrote:
An antenna under a dome or sheath will not be an attractor for
lightning like a raw, exposed stick would, so the strike will be upon the
craft, not the antenna. The only effect after that are the induced EM
effects, if any.
Joerg
Nowadays an inductor can be had for 2-3 cents. At least in China. Most
of the time the cost change is zero because all you need to do is swing
a filter architecture for T to Pi. Same number of parts but no more
phhhht ... *POP*. Bean counters really like that :-)
>
>>> Another problem was thin steel chassis, held together by sheet metal
>>> screws. The spot welded aluminum cases were better, and used PEM nuts
>>> to secure the cover. The heavy case had a lot lower impedance to ground
>>> than the cheap steel cases.
>>>
>> I usually have to deal with <gasp> PVC or ABS :-(
>
>
> Sorry, but I don't work with crap.
>
There are applications where plastic isn't crap at all. Or do you think
radio-translucent dome caps on aircraft are crap?
Joerg
It is not about a direct strike, it is about coupled voltage spikes from
strikes in the vicinity. If you don't have a conductive path right from
antenna to GND that typically means more field failures. A lot more.
Spehro Pefhany
Not much of a "stick" at L1, L2, or the frequencies used by the
geostationary sats for WAAS, as well as sat data/voice (eg. Iridium).
Michael A. Terrell
Most of the RF gear I work with has DC on the input so no matter how
cheap the inductor is, it won't work. OTOH, I worked on $20,00 to
$80,000 radios, not $10 radios.
> >>> Another problem was thin steel chassis, held together by sheet metal
> >>> screws. The spot welded aluminum cases were better, and used PEM nuts
> >>> to secure the cover. The heavy case had a lot lower impedance to ground
> >>> than the cheap steel cases.
> >>>
> >> I usually have to deal with <gasp> PVC or ABS :-(
> >
> >
> > Sorry, but I don't work with crap.
> >
>
> There are applications where plastic isn't crap at all. Or do you think
> radio-translucent dome caps on aircraft are crap?
They can be. I'm waiting for transparent aluminum. ;-)
Michael A. Terrell
We called them Upper L and Lower L in the telemetry business. P band
was common, too. All were tiny probes in a feedhorn.
Archimedes' Lever
wrote:
What part of the word 'induced' did you fail to learn in your study
years?
Archimedes' Lever
<spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
ANY sharp protrusion has a huge gradient difference compared to rounded
or no protrusion.
The Iridium is a six inch long stick, BTW.
Joerg
Same here. Except that my range does go down to around two bucks :-)
>
>>>>> Another problem was thin steel chassis, held together by sheet metal
>>>>> screws. The spot welded aluminum cases were better, and used PEM nuts
>>>>> to secure the cover. The heavy case had a lot lower impedance to ground
>>>>> than the cheap steel cases.
>>>>>
>>>> I usually have to deal with <gasp> PVC or ABS :-(
>>>
>>> Sorry, but I don't work with crap.
>>>
>> There are applications where plastic isn't crap at all. Or do you think
>> radio-translucent dome caps on aircraft are crap?
>
>
> They can be. I'm waiting for transparent aluminum. ;-)
>
Yesterday I marveled at a friends project, he is building a Van's
two-seater. Man, what an amount of work that is. All those rivet alone
made his wrist hurt even though he has an air tool that he can use on
many of them. And the aluminum is all scarily thin.
Joerg
That's why I am surprised you don't understand why there needs to be an
inductor.
Joerg
I've seen (and remedied) situations where 2"-3" sticks caused massive
field failures. Because the inductive path was lacking.
Paul Keinanen
wrote:
For this reason a folded dipole is nice, since you can ground the
midpoint of the upper (continuous) side. No extra inductors needed.
Michael A. Terrell
Joerg wrote:
>
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> > Joerg wrote:
> >> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> >>>
> >> Nowadays an inductor can be had for 2-3 cents. At least in China. Most
> >> of the time the cost change is zero because all you need to do is swing
> >> a filter architecture for T to Pi. Same number of parts but no more
> >> phhhht ... *POP*. Bean counters really like that :-)
> >
> >
> > Most of the RF gear I work with has DC on the input so no matter how
> > cheap the inductor is, it won't work. OTOH, I worked on $20,00 to
> > $80,000 radios, not $10 radios.
> >
>
> Same here. Except that my range does go down to around two bucks :-)
Spendthrift!
> >>>> I usually have to deal with <gasp> PVC or ABS :-(
> >>>
> >>> Sorry, but I don't work with crap.
> >>>
> >> There are applications where plastic isn't crap at all. Or do you think
> >> radio-translucent dome caps on aircraft are crap?
> >
> >
> > They can be. I'm waiting for transparent aluminum. ;-)
> >
>
> Yesterday I marveled at a friends project, he is building a Van's
> two-seater. Man, what an amount of work that is. All those rivet alone
> made his wrist hurt even though he has an air tool that he can use on
> many of them. And the aluminum is all scarily thin.
I did some body fork on a step van years ago. I used over 10 pounds
of #6 1/2" self tapping panhead screws. There are over 650 screws to
the pound. A lot of them went into aluminized stainless steel. That's
the special steel developed for Catalytic converters.
Joerg
I sure wish I could find a 900MHz antenna like that right now. But it
must be under 4dBi for license reasons and must be a vertical stick
because of space constraints.
But, I guess, it'll be the usual. Fix the bugs the RF module mfgs let
slip by :-(
Archimedes' Lever
wrote:
>
>That's why I am surprised you don't understand why there needs to be an
>inductor.
Show me where I said that at all.
You are confusing me with some other person you were arguing with.
Joerg
Show us how you deal with induced lightning load sans inductor.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
If you need a source for antennas send me a note. We have a couple of
manufacturers who work pretty closely with us. One has come up with a
solution for 900MHz that even fits where we need it. ;-)
Archimedes' Lever
wrote:
>Archimedes' Lever wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 12:44:45 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> That's why I am surprised you don't understand why there needs to be an
>>> inductor.
>>
>> Show me where I said that at all.
>>
>> You are confusing me with some other person you were arguing with.
>
>
>Show us how you deal with induced lightning load sans inductor.
Again, you retarded fuck! It was not I that ever told you that it was
not needed.
GET A CLUE.
Joerg
> On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 13:35:13 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Paul Keinanen wrote:
[...]
>>> For this reason a folded dipole is nice, since you can ground the
>>> midpoint of the upper (continuous) side. No extra inductors needed.
>>>
>> I sure wish I could find a 900MHz antenna like that right now. But it
>> must be under 4dBi for license reasons and must be a vertical stick
>> because of space constraints.
>
> If you need a source for antennas send me a note. We have a couple of
> manufacturers who work pretty closely with us. One has come up with a
> solution for 900MHz that even fits where we need it. ;-)
>
Done, but no rush :-)
[...]
Archimedes' Lever
<Winfiel...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> So, no, I don't expect the cap to flash over. Bring it on!
My node is 150 feet away from any ground point. That is 150 feet of
Teflon or Delrin or glass or whatever hat that goes from the charging
node to the plate itself.
If lightning strokes come down here from up there, it will, during said
charging event, flash over from the charging node to ground, until the
charging event(stroke) is over. Then, of course, there will be no
further arcing, but the point was that one cannot capture the entire
potential the stroke is at. One will always only be able to grab SOME of
it.
So my cap presents a HUGE distance between the node and ground.
Yours? How far apart are the nodes that are tied to your cap's plates?
Yes, it does matter. My cap will have a final charged voltage far
higher than any cap where the distance is smaller, because that distance
will determine how much is lost to the flash over during stroke event,
which is what I was talking about before as well.
Archimedes' Lever
<jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>No, sorry, I didn't register to vote. In fact, I don't register to
>vote on anything, ever. I don't want to decide anything about other
>peoples' lives.
>
Yet you decided that I have some 'fetish' to the point where you go out
of your way to announce it every chance you get. So you are a goddamned
liar as well.
I credit Freud with the start of the psychoanalytic theory, and for
getting folks on couches to discuss their issues. I do not give his
cocaine induced determinations on "id" and "ego" etc. any credence, and
consider some of them to be ludicrous, in fact. You, however, are
obviously too strongly attached to them. It is glaringly apparent, yet
you not seeing your own flaws is as well.
The term for today, people, is "Two faced".
Archimedes' Lever
wrote:
>Gear out in the field typically never has that.
Cable TV hard line full spectrum line amplifiers hang on a hard line
that carries the 60V power supply source that they use to operate.
You really do say a lot of things before you think it through.
Archimedes' Lever
wrote:
>Of course, if you design sat-gear that's different.
I doubt that you know the industry well enough to expound on it in
'industry wide' manner.
You do not know enough.
Joerg
So, what do you know about electronics in agriculture, outdoor equipment
control, oil & gas, airport infrastructure, aircraft electronics,
spacecraft electronics, and so on? I am talking professional stuff here,
not entertainment infrastructure.
Archimedes' Lever
wrote:
>Archimedes' Lever wrote:
>> On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 17:57:47 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Of course, if you design sat-gear that's different.
>>
>> I doubt that you know the industry well enough to expound on it in
>> 'industry wide' manner.
>>
>> You do not know enough.
>
>
>So, what do you know about electronics in agriculture,
Soil analyzers.
> outdoor equipment
>control, oil & gas, airport infrastructure,
bomb sniffers, drug sniffers, X-ray machines.
> aircraft electronics,
HUD HV supplies. High brightness displays.
>spacecraft electronics,
Satellite HV power supplies.
> and so on?
Currently? Satellite receivers and the network hub gear associated
with them.
> I am talking professional stuff here,
Stuff?
>not entertainment infrastructure.
Is that a good description of your function here?
Joerg
> On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:16:30 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> Archimedes' Lever wrote:
>>> On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 17:57:47 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Of course, if you design sat-gear that's different.
>>> I doubt that you know the industry well enough to expound on it in
>>> 'industry wide' manner.
>>>
>>> You do not know enough.
>>
>> So, what do you know about electronics in agriculture,
>
> Soil analyzers.
>
>> outdoor equipment
>> control, oil & gas, airport infrastructure,
>
> bomb sniffers, drug sniffers, X-ray machines.
>
>> aircraft electronics,
>
> HUD HV supplies. High brightness displays.
>
>> spacecraft electronics,
>
> Satellite HV power supplies.
>
>> and so on?
>
> Currently? Satellite receivers and the network hub gear associated
> with them.
>
So you are doing the actual hardware design on all this? Then why all
these aliases?
>> I am talking professional stuff here,
>
> Stuff?
>
>> not entertainment infrastructure.
>
> Is that a good description of your function here?
I guess entertainment would be yours.
Still waiting for that bible quote, Mr.Eko :-)
John Larkin
<OneBi...@InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:
>On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 10:16:37 -0700, John Larkin
><jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>
>>No, sorry, I didn't register to vote. In fact, I don't register to
>>vote on anything, ever. I don't want to decide anything about other
>>peoples' lives.
>>
>
> Yet you decided that I have some 'fetish' to the point where you go out
>of your way to announce it every chance you get. So you are a goddamned
>liar as well.
I only point it out a fraction of the time that you mention poop.
>
> I credit Freud with the start of the psychoanalytic theory, and for
>getting folks on couches to discuss their issues. I do not give his
>cocaine induced determinations on "id" and "ego" etc. any credence, and
>consider some of them to be ludicrous, in fact. You, however, are
>obviously too strongly attached to them. It is glaringly apparent, yet
>you not seeing your own flaws is as well.
I'm not a fan of Freud, and my fetishes smell much better than yours.
John
Archimedes' Lever
<jjla...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>
>I only point it out a fraction of the time that you mention poop.
>
>>
No, John. In the last week alone, you never hesitated to be the little
pussified bitch that you are, even when all I mentioned is the word
"ass".
You are truly pathetic, John. That is a sad fact.
Greegor
Your blatantly sociopathic comments last week
had me wondering if you have severe ADHD,
Autism, or Aspergers
(like Green Xenon admitted to having)
When you claimed this rediculous name dropping
list of various specialties in electronic engineering you
were exhibiting a delusional symptom which implies
outright schitzophrenia. (delusional state)
I have a lot of gripes with the field of psychology,
too, but yours are from a PATIENTS perspective.
Your classically sociopathic comment about
how we're all just bugs in YOUR jar was very telling.
I noticed how defensive you got when I asked
Green Xenon about his disability. He at
least openly declared his aspergers.
You won't tell the truth about your
mental malfunction will you? I think NOT.
You are forever psychologically
at WAR with all of humanity.
Puff up your chest, tell us your lies about
how you are an expert at 12 different
exotic specialty areas of electrical
engineering but then tell us how that
stuff about EGO and ID is all bunkum.
LOL
>Archimedes' Lever wrote:
>> On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 17:57:47 -0700, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid>
TheGlimmerMan
wrote:
>
>When you claimed this rediculous name dropping
>list of various specialties in electronic engineering you
>were exhibiting a delusional symptom which implies
>outright schitzophrenia. (delusional state)
First off, idiot, the term is RIDICULOUS. You are one of those gang
boy retard punks that actually pronounces it "ree-dic-u-lous".
It is derived from the word RIDicule, idiot. There is NO "E" anywhere
in the spelling OR the pronunciation, you retarded little bitch.
Secondly, every product I listed are products that I was involved with
the design and manufacture of.
I have worked in electronics for over 30 years. You, on the other
hand, are nothing more than a pathetic, pants down past the asscrack
punk.
I have no idea what a retarded, finger pointing fucktard like you knows
about electronics. I suspect, from what I have seen here, and from your
incessant netkkkop behavior, that it is very little.
Prove otherwise, or shut the fuck up.
Better yet, leave AND shut the fuck up, you retarded little bitch.
Your capacity to make a valid assessment, despite it being unsolicited,
unqualified, unprofessional, and unquestionably stupid, rests right at
nil.
Your appeal has been denied, like you knew it would be, bitch.
TheGlimmerMan
wrote:
>I have a lot of gripes with the field of psychology,
>too, but yours are from a PATIENTS perspective.
You wouldn't know, dumbfuck. That is the point.
TheGlimmerMan
wrote:
>Your classically sociopathic comment about
>how we're all just bugs in YOUR jar was very telling.
Actually, it was very manipulative. You squirm real nice.
It has also skewed any chance you ever had of knowing anything about
me. Everything you spew is pathetic conjecture.
Bwuahahahahahah!
TheGlimmerMan
wrote:
>
>I noticed how defensive you got when I asked
>Green Xenon about his disability. He at
>least openly declared his aspergers.
You are delusional, ya little bitch. You are blind to your own
affliction.