software used to make the laserprinter PCB etch resist images ?
robb
resist trick ?
ie. print image on the laser printer, iron on copper cover board, wash away
paper, disolve exposed copper, remove the plastic, drill holes .....
thanks for any help,
rob
Rich Grise
> "Robert Roland" <fa...@ddress.no> wrote in message
>> On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 06:53:21 -0400, "robb" <so...@where.on.net> wrote:
>>
>> >what software is best used to make the images for the DIY laser printer
> PCB
>> >resist trick ?
>>
>>
>> The software needs to be able to read the original format and then print
>> it in the proper size and orientation. --
>>
> thanks for help,
> i should have been more clear. I do not presently have a format or layout
> yet i was just going to draw some simple traces for simple project to
> experimant with the DIY PCB.
>
> I tried using the word processor (for about a minute) but that has obvious
> drawbacks with precision, scaling and line creation problems so i thought
> there might be some shareware/freeware PCB drawing or printing software i
> could use to create the PCB mask.
You could use a paint program, albeit it might take a few tries to
get the scaling right.
I've got paint shop pro v. 4.12 ...
Found a download!
http://www.oldapps.com/OldApps/Paint_Shop_Pro/Paint_Shop_Pro_412.exe
Good Luck!
Rich
the_constructor
>>PCB
>>resist trick ?
>
>
> The software needs to be able to read the original format and then
> print it in the proper size and orientation.
> --
>
I am trying to get to grips with a program called ExpressPCB from
www.expresspcb.com
I have not done any pcb work for years and this program
is free.
--
the_constructor
Don't tip it, recycle it. Join your local group.
http://freecycle.org/display.php?region=United%20Kingdom
JeffM
>>>what software is best used to make the images
>>>for the DIY laser printer PCB resist trick ?
>>>
>I am trying to get to grips with a program called ExpressPCB[...]
>this program is free.
More specifically, it is LOCK-IN-WARE.
It is designed so that it will ONLY be useful
if you order your boards from THAT vendor.
It does NOT produce Gerbers,
and to make it print out something you can use yourself,
you have to jump thru hoops.
To the OP:
As DJ has suggested, look at Kicad. It has a Windoze port.
As you use Outbreaks in Excess as a newsreader,
I'm thinking you are not into learning much about software
so gEDA on Windoze would too much effort for you.
EAGLE is now DRM'd--more potential hoop-jumping:
**The Downside of EAGLE** by Markus Zingg
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.arch.embedded/browse_frm/thread/f794e82d26b59e18/d7cf4149edb93ac7?q=*-*-website+reuse+paying.*+*-I-will-switch+cracked-*+*.would.not.help.*+zzz+after-*-*-version-*+copied+*.*.unlock.*.designs+*-*-*-*-exchange-*-*-*-*-third-party+reused+qq+*-*-single-bit-*-*-*-*+useless+*-*-*-projects-could-no-longer-be-opened
...not to mention its non-intuitive interface.
You might also consider TinyCAD.
There are *lots* of ECAD programs available:
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:TqSgFbRdvUQJ:www.terrypin.dial.pipex.com/ECADList.html+*.design.size.limitations+Demo+GPL+*-*-existent+No+qq+free+Download.version+Student+jj+with.no.limit+Lite+Harry.Eaton+*-*-send-*-*-orders-*-*-*-*-*+Poor.web.site.no.details+vv+freeware+pp+trial
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:yhXwPaC3qk0J:www.olimex.com/pcb/dtools.html+You-can-download-*-*+zzz+open.source+No-demo-*+qq+qq+Free+ww+ww+uu+free.trial+pp+GPL+pp+pp+kk+kk+kk+kk+kk+free-download&strip=1
If you are ever going to produce a *second* PCB layout,
just AVOID paint programs and move on to the real deal.
budgie
>thanks for help,
>i should have been more clear. I do not presently have a format or layout
>yet i was just going to draw some simple traces for simple project to
>experimant with the DIY PCB.
>
>I tried using the word processor (for about a minute) but that has obvious
>drawbacks with precision, scaling and line creation problems so i thought
>there might be some shareware/freeware PCB drawing or printing software i
>could use to create the PCB mask.
>
>seems like it would be better if i started with some PCB layout software
>then go from there ?
At that level, I'd seriously suggest Protel AutoTrax which is freeware.
Robert Baer
Software WILL NOT solve the paper path problem; that path *MUST* be
perfectly straight to allow the passage of a PCB.
Also, the printer must allow for rather thick paper ("pasteboard"
comes to mind).
Damn few printer models had straight paths; you may have to do some
difficult reseach and get a used printer.
DJ Delorie
Robert Baer <rober...@localnet.com> writes:
> robb wrote:
> > what software is best used to make the images for the DIY laser
> > printer PCB resist trick ?
> Software WILL NOT solve the paper path problem; that path *MUST*
> be perfectly straight to allow the passage of a PCB.
Huh? The laser printer trick does not pass the PCB through the
printer; you're thinking of the inkjet resist trick. Toner won't even
stick to PCB material very well when run through the printer directly
(yes, it's been tried) - the combination of electrically conductive
copper and high thermal mass of the backing messes up the toner/fuser
process. You really do have to iron it on separately, off a carrier
sheet, to get enough heat and control.
All the inkjet conversions I've read about require mechanical changes
to the printer to provide a suitable path for the PCB, usually
including making a carrier sled.
the_constructor
"JeffM" <jef...@email.com> wrote in message
news:1190409597.9...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> robb wrote:
>>>>what software is best used to make the images
>>>>for the DIY laser printer PCB resist trick ?
>>>>
> the_constructor wrote:
>>I am trying to get to grips with a program called ExpressPCB[...]
>>this program is free.
>
> More specifically, it is LOCK-IN-WARE.
> It is designed so that it will ONLY be useful
> if you order your boards from THAT vendor.
>
> It does NOT produce Gerbers,
> and to make it print out something you can use yourself,
> you have to jump thru hoops.
It may not produce Gerbers, I have not looked at that, but it prints out to
drafting film on my inkjet printer and to the correct size.
robb
"robb" <so...@where.on.net> wrote in message
news:13f78al...@corp.supernews.com...
> what software is best used to make the images for the DIY laser
printer PCB
> resist trick ?
>
> ie. print image on the laser printer, iron on copper cover
board, wash away
> paper, disolve exposed copper, remove the plastic, drill holes
.....
>
1:1:1 mix of muriatic:peroxide:water ? is that true or make a
good etchant ? and surely they are not refering to the 5%
peroxide found in the local drug/food stores ? if not then what
% peroxide content would one want to use ?
thanks again, rob
RST Engineering (jw)
drugstore strength ratio you describe. Depending on how much copper and how
much solution you have, the resultant solution AFTER dissolving the copper
will be either a bright transparent emerald green or a murky opaque
yellowish-green.
The bright green solution can be used to dissolve more copper until the
solution turns murky and opaque. At that point, bubbling air (think
aquarium pump with plastic bubbler) through the murky solution will
eventually return the solution to bright transparent green again, at which
time you can dissolve more copper and around and around you go.
A little agitation or bubbling during the etch process helps things along
tremendously, as does a SLIGHT heating of the solution (think aquarium glass
heater). Use a glass or plastic container (think aquarium) to do the
etching.
Jim
--
"If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
--Henry Ford
"robb" <so...@where.on.net> wrote in message
news:13f9rud...@corp.supernews.com...
Jamie
into the printer!.. A simply use of good thick paper or ink jet photo
on the glossy side works well after you printer it using the laser
printer. Then, iron it on! :)
--
"I'm never wrong, once i thought i was, but was mistaken"
Real Programmers Do things like this.
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5
robb
Thanks Jeff,
for help and taking the time to lay it out.
now don't read too much into using OE... it is there, simple,
usually works and life leaves little time for hobbies. i have
had my time and interest with various flavors of OS and sftwr
{A/UX, VMS, AIX, SunOS - Solaris (4-10) ,HP/ux, Ultrix,
linux{Redhat,SUSE}}bla bla and i even had a linux port on my
PocketPC :)
but that was an other day
thanks again for info i might even try that gEDA,
robb
robb
"Robert Latest" <bobl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5li0j7F...@mid.dfncis.de...
> ["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.design.]
> robb wrote:
>
> > seems like it would be better if i started with some PCB
layout software
> > then go from there ?
>
www.cadsoft.de. They
> have a freebie version whose only limitation is the max. PCB
size of 80x100
> mm. Assuming you don't want to do homebrew multilayer boards.
>
> My personal start into the CAD world was some illustration
software (I think
> Aldus Freehand) back in 1990, but that was just an extension of
my
> previosuly hand-inked layouts. Nowadays nobody uses anything
but a schematic
> capture/layout combo, such as the one mentioned above.
>
> robert
thanks for info, i will take a look at that
robb
robb
"Rich Grise" <ri...@example.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2007.09.21....@example.net...
> On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 09:17:35 -0400, robb wrote:
> > "Robert Roland" <fa...@ddress.no> wrote in message
> >> On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 06:53:21 -0400, "robb"
<so...@where.on.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >what software is best used to make the images for the DIY
laser printer
> > PCB
> >> >resist trick ?
> >>
> >> It depends on what format your original layout is in.
> >>
that has obvious
> > drawbacks with precision, scaling and line creation problems
so i thought
> > there might be some shareware/freeware PCB drawing or
printing software i
> > could use to create the PCB mask.
>
> You could use a paint program, albeit it might take a few tries
to
> get the scaling right.
>
> I've got paint shop pro v. 4.12 ...
> Found a download!
>
http://www.oldapps.com/OldApps/Paint_Shop_Pro/Paint_Shop_Pro_412.exe
>
thanks Richard,
I probably have that software in a box in the basement...
downloading will be easier than fnding that though.
robb
robb
"DJ Delorie" <d...@delorie.com> wrote in message
news:xnmyvgr...@delorie.com...
>
> You need some sort of EDA or CAD program; a pcb-specific layout
> program is probably best and there are plenty of
freely-available ones
> to try and see what you like. Freely downloadable ones include
Eagle,
> Kicad, and gEDA/pcb (which I use). There are probably others.
>
> Alternatively, you could use a paint program (gimp, paint,
photoshop)
> if you're careful about the DPI of the image, or any drawing or
figure
> program (xfig, illustrator, autocad), again - if you're careful
about
> the scale.
Thanks for reply,
I am looking into all these suggestions...
robb
robb
think this will make a difference ?
thanks for info,
robb
"RST Engineering (jw)" <j...@rstengineering.com> wrote in message
news:13fadnl...@news.supernews.com...
JosephKK
That is the number one reason that the transfer method is used with
laser printers. remember that the transfer technique flips the image
on one axis. See gootee boards.
robb
do you know if phosphoric or oxalic acid can safely be
substituted for the muriatic ? i noticed they have similar pKa
value.
robb
"RST Engineering (jw)" <j...@rstengineering.com> wrote in message
news:13fadnl...@news.supernews.com...
sleb...@gmail.com
> "robb" <s...@where.on.net> wrote in message
I'm using this solution. Though it's 1:2 acid:peroxide for me. You
don't need water as hydrogen peroxide is 99.5 % water or more. And
yes, they are referring to the weak peroxide you can buy in drug
stores. Muriatic acid is just weak hydrochloric acid (again, more
water than acid).
My typical experience is that a freshly made solution will etch a 10cm
by 5cm board in under 5 minutes at room temperature without agitation.
Though towards the end of 5 minutes I'd recommend having a look at the
board and manually shake your etching tray until done. That's because
although this solution is very cheap it is also very strong and can
over-etch if you leave your board in for too long.
If you're only making a few PCBs occasionally then the solution will
keep for about a week. You can add a bit more peroxide if you find it
a bit weak after a couple of days.
If you're making lots of PCBs then you should invest in a bubble tank.
Not to speed up etching, this stuff etches in under 5 minutes as is
already, but to re-generate the etchant. Once the solution turns blue
or bluish green pump bubbles into it until it becomes light green.
Then what you have is a completely different etchant -- cupric acid
which is a very good industrial grade etchant. Once you've got your
cupric acid then you can basically keep regenerating it with air
bubbles whenever it weakens.
robb
robb
"sleb...@yahoo.com" <sleb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190627542.6...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
Jerry
news:1190627542.6...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com:
Thanks for that. How do you dispose of the solution when its used up or
old?
RST Engineering (jw)
steel. When the solution is no longer green, you have clear hydrochloric
acid. Neutralize the acid with lye and you basically (no pun intended) have
salt water. Steel isn't hazmat. Copper metal isn't hasmat, and salt water
isn't hasmat.
By the way, has anybody taken the time to teach you how to snip?
Jim
--
"If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
--Henry Ford
"Jerry" <je...@b.com> wrote in message
news:Xns99B56BD3E...@199.45.49.11...
JeffM
>By the way, has anybody taken the time to teach you how to snip?
Says the guy who top-posts.
--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
robb
i am using ExpressPCB and i have two layer board.
I need to print one of the images (bottom or top ) flipped and
having trouble.
there is a flip option for components so i tried to make my
drawing a component but i can not create a component with traces.
So what is the method for producing a flipped/mirrored image of
the PCB traces ?
I can export to a bmp but
thanks for any help,
robb
JeffM
>i am using ExpressPCB[...]
>I need to print one of the images (bottom or top ) flipped
>and having trouble.
I believe I already used the phrases "lock-in-ware"
"jump thru hoops" (SPECIFICALLY about printing)
and "real deal".
robb
so you did JeffryM... so you did.
yes i did read it and i know you said it and i do appreciate
your sharing your info but jumping through hoops sounds hopeful
and.....
i tried kincad and it was just too much there for what i want to
do, i mean what do you need to draw a PCB ??? a component list,
layer select, trace draw and pad draw thats like 3 buttons and a
drop down select box plus an options window for customizing. gEDA
was too difficult to install
anyways i was hoping there was a crack....
in my day we used disassemblers, tracers and hex-editors to
modify application binaries to enable certain features that were
just simply disabled through run time switches or other
simplistic internal checks. you could spot these enableable
features in apps because the app allowed you perform functions on
internal or vendor provided data sets but not on you own data
set. Later with windoze "events based" application frameworks
and moving config into registry settings there were registry
monitoring, file monitoring and events watching tools to watch
what the applications were looking for.... occasionally a
careless designer/programmer might not hide registry access to a
key called flip_option = 0 or you might see an
MS_Menu_Item5_Disable event etc....
so if there is no magic user setting then maybe some one has
found the simplest loops to jump through and i won't need to
rediscover those hoops ??
expressPCB will let you flip their components but not you own
custom component then they will not allow traces in custom
components nor can user use certain types of pads in the custom
components although express does and the output images does not
include traces either .....
i see the hoops just wondering how to navigate the hoops, someone
made acooment suggesting it was possible so how is the question ?
oh well i guess i could spent that rant learning kincad
thanks,
robb
Ken Fowler
On 26-Sep-2007, "robb" <so...@where.on.net> wrote:
> Path:
> border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!xlned.com!feeder1.xlned.com!txtfeed2.tudelft.nl!tudelft.nl!txtfeed1.tudelft.nl!feeder1.cambrium.nl!feed.tweaknews.nl!138.199.65.86.MISMATCH!sn-xt-ams-06!sn-xt-ams-05!sn-post-ams-02!sn-post-sjc-02!sn-post-sjc-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
> From: "robb" <so...@where.on.net>
> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.design
> Subject: [ExpressPCB] how to print for 2 layer board ? was:software used to make the laserprinter
> PCB etch resist images ?
> Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:25:46 -0400
> Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
> Message-ID: <13fkqk1...@corp.supernews.com>
> References: <13f78al...@corp.supernews.com>
> X-Priority: 3
> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1807
> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1896
> X-Complaints-To: ab...@supernews.com
> Lines: 17
> Bytes: 1509
> Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com sci.electronics.basics:277876 sci.electronics.design:844060
I used Express PCB and Schematic to create a one time project. I didn't need Gerber support for
further development and the price for boards was OK. I have also used it to produce a board by
Toner Transfer. For single sided boards it works fine. The problem is when you need to flip the
reverse side copper and the silkscreen. There is no way to print the copper and silkscreen
reversed. I made my silkscreen printout by printing to a bitmap, then importing the bitmap into
Turbo Cad and flipping it. You can also scan the normal Express PCB output to a JPG format and flip
it in a photo editor. You have to be careful with the scaling. I could also replicate the artwork
to fill up a whole sheet of patterns. I like the simplicity of the Express tools.
Ken Fowler, KO6NO
robb
"robb" <so...@where.on.net> wrote in message
news:13f78al...@corp.supernews.com...
> what software is best used to make the images for the DIY laser
printer PCB
> resist trick ?
>
> ie. print image on the laser printer, iron on copper cover
board, wash away
> paper, disolve exposed copper, remove the plastic, drill holes
.....
>
"alt.binaries.schematics.electronics"
i was hopping for some experienced advice and critiques on
design, layout , how to improve what is wrong what is right etc..
thanks for your help and time,
robb
JosephKK
It is less a question of safely than usefully, pKa is not the only
issue.
Marra
Keep pads as big as possible without them causing shorts.
I use PCBCAD21 which I got off ebay for a few pounds.
JeffM
Marra wrote:
>[deceitful SPAM]
http://www.google.com/search?q=define:Astroturfing
http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=PCBCAD21+OR+PCBCAD17&scoring=d&filter=0&num=100
Know your vendor (a real jerk).
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.design/browse_frm/thread/07faedb5000ef8c1/70f06e9f2863598f?q=posted-pictures.of-his-ass+Yahoogroup+You-can-guess-how-he'd-respond-to-a-bug-report-or-request-for-assistance-with-his-software
Marra
> (was: making laserprinter PCB etch resist images ?)
>
> Marra wrote:
> >[deceitful SPAM]
>
>
> Know your vendor (a real jerk).http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.design/browse_frm/thre...
But I am a not for profit vendor !
Hence a huge PCB CAD program for peanuts.
A similar program from Number one systems would be £400.
So get your facts right before accusing people of spamming !