Charge gel cell with car charger?

[Mike Cook]

A friend has a battery powered Ryobi lawn trimmer ("weed whacker") which
doesn't work. The 12vdc wall wart puts out only ~ 12.4v.

I charged the lead-acid gel cell using a car charger. The charge rate
(selectable) was 0.5A. Afterward the trimmer seemed to work as new.

Can the car charger be used to charge this battery? He can install a timer to
limit charge time if that's something required.

Thanks.

[Mike Cook]

The gel cell is 12v.

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sun, 24 Feb 2013 00:06:18 -0800) it happened Mike Cook
<mc...@NOTyahoo.com> wrote in
<0001HW.CD4F09FA...@news.eternal-september.org>:

Old trick was to put a car headlight or some other low voltage bulb (break light)
in series as current limiter.
Maybe modern car has only LEDs, dunno, :-)

[mrob...@att.net]

Followups set to sci.electronics.repair .

In sci.electronics.components Mike Cook <mc...@notyahoo.com> wrote:
> Can the car charger be used to charge this battery?

Probably. Do you know what the amp-hour capacity is of the battery that
is in there now? A little Googling *1 suggests that the original 12 V
battery might have been six Gates/Hawker/Enersys "Cyclon" 2 V cells in
series; the replacement that one site sells looks suspiciously like the
common or garden 12 V 7 amp-hour "gel cell", plus a couple of brackets
to make it fit. If the battery capacity is around 6 or 7 amp-hours,
then the 0.5 A charger will work OK, as long as you don't mind it taking
12 or more hours for a full charge.

One manufacturer of these batteries *2 says this is how you charge the
12 V, 7 Ah size:

"Limit initial current to 2.1A. Charge until battery voltage (under
charge) reaches 14.4 to 14.7 volts at 68�F (20�C). Hold at 14.4 to 14.7
volts until current drops to under 70mA. Battery is fully charged under
these conditions, and charger should be disconnected or switched to
"float" voltage."

So... the 0.5 A car battery charger should be OK. The charger you have
may not do the automatic float and shutoff - more below.

The voltage output by the car charger will be slightly different than
what a sealed battery needs; this is probably not too important in this
application, but may reduce battery life a little. If you want, you can
get an "official" charger for sealed batteries for $35 or so; *3 has
0.8 A output and will work a little faster. Or, get one of the
automatic car battery maintainers like a Deltran Battery Tender or
Schumacher Battery Companion; these usually have 1.0 to 1.5 A outputs
and will automagically switch to a low-current charge once the battery
is full. These are easy to find at local stores.

> He can install a timer to limit charge time if that's something
> required.

If the charger doesn't have any kind of automatic shutoff, then this
might not be a bad idea. The million dollar question is "how long is
enough". The answer depends on how discharged the battery is. The
simple answer (for a 7 amp-hour battery) is 7 amp-hours / 0.5 amps =
14 hours. But: the charge won't be 0.5 A for the whole time. It may
start off that way but it will go down as the battery charges up, so
a full charge will take longer.

At a guess, I would get one of those 12 hour spring wound timer switches
(often used with attic fans) from the hardware store, and put it in an
outlet box along with an outlet and a cord. Maybe set it for 2 or 3
hours the first time, then when it shuts off, measure the battery
voltage to find out how full it is. If not full enough, repeat. After
a few runs you will know what to set the timer to initially.

*1 http://www.ereplacementparts.com/ryobi-150r-41ae150f034-volt-battery-trimmer-parts-c-7931_15633_18531.html

*2 http://www.power-sonic.com/images/powersonic/sla_batteries/ps_psg_series/12volt/PS-1270_11_Feb_21.pdf

*3 http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Power-Sonic/PSC-12800A-C/?qs=XATL/JQ9g1zerdAMdrMzKQ==

Standard disclaimers apply; I don't get money or other consideration
from any companies mentioned.

Matt Roberds

[dave]

You answered your own question. As long as the battery doesn't heat up
on a big charge you're probably OK. Trickle chargers can do more harm
than good. I'd find a smartcharger with a "lead-acid" setting.

[dave]

On 02/24/2013 12:30 AM, Mike Cook wrote:
> The gel cell is 12v.
>

Most lead acid batteries are ca. 13.6 Vdc If your car battery ever got
down to 12 Vdc the car would have trouble starting. Lead acid cells are
about 2.22 Vdc.

[Phil Allison]

"dave"

>
> You answered your own question. As long as the battery doesn't heat up on
> a big charge you're probably OK.

** SLA or "gel cells" are prone to gassing when overcharged.

The pressure builds up inside until something gives - then you have bits
of battery and acid all over the place.

Voltage & current limited charging is the only safe and sensible way.



... Phil

[dave]

They have vents.

[Phil Allison]

"dave"
>Phil Allison

>>
>>> You answered your own question. As long as the battery doesn't heat up
>>> on
>>> a big charge you're probably OK.
>>
>>
>> ** SLA or "gel cells" are prone to gassing when overcharged.
>>
>> The pressure builds up inside until something gives - then you have
>> bits
>> of battery and acid all over the place.
>>
>> Voltage & current limited charging is the only safe and sensible way.
>>
>

> They have vents.

** So you have no fucking idea what really happens.




.... Phil

[Jamie]

THe OEM charger most likely is unfiltered. Put a cap on the output but
do not connect it to the battery and then do a voltage check.

If you see a jump in voltage then this means the battery is on its
last leg and you really shouldn't push it.

A good test for this condition is to fully charge it with your auto
charger and disconnect it and test the voltage a day later or few hours
later to note the discharge.

It is possible the charger is bad but I am going with a
bad battery. You can always get a weak battery to appear good with an
extra current source but the charge will dwindle.


Jamie

[Tim Wescott]

Go to a boat shop, feed store, hardware store, whatever, and get a float
charger.



--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

[Michael A. Terrell]

Mike Cook wrote:
>
> A friend has a battery powered Ryobi lawn trimmer ("weed whacker") which
> doesn't work. The 12vdc wall wart puts out only ~ 12.4v.

In or out of circuit? If the thing doesn't have any filter caps, the
out of circuit reading will be low.

[Michael A. Terrell]

They are damaged long before they can vent.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jamie wrote:
>
> Mike Cook wrote:
> > A friend has a battery powered Ryobi lawn trimmer ("weed whacker") which
> > doesn't work. The 12vdc wall wart puts out only ~ 12.4v.
> >
> > I charged the lead-acid gel cell using a car charger. The charge rate
> > (selectable) was 0.5A. Afterward the trimmer seemed to work as new.
> >
> > Can the car charger be used to charge this battery? He can install a timer to
> > limit charge time if that's something required.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
>
> THe OEM charger most likely is unfiltered. Put a cap on the output but
> do not connect it to the battery and then do a voltage check.

More bad bad advice from Maynard Philbrook, as usual. Does the
voltage across the battery go up when the charger is connected?

> If you see a jump in voltage then this means the battery is on its
> last leg and you really shouldn't push it.

Bullshit, as always. The connector for the charger may be bad,
especially if it disconnects the battery from the tool while on charge.
I've seen connects melted, or the solder overheat 7 the wires fall off
poor designs.

> A good test for this condition is to fully charge it with your auto
> charger and disconnect it and test the voltage a day later or few hours
> later to note the discharge.
>
> It is possible the charger is bad but I am going with a
> bad battery. You can always get a weak battery to appear good with an
> extra current source but the charge will dwindle.

You're long overdue for replacement. :(

[David Eather]

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 07:56:18 +1000, Tim Wescott <t...@seemywebsite.please>
wrote:

> On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 00:06:18 -0800, Mike Cook wrote:
>
>> A friend has a battery powered Ryobi lawn trimmer ("weed whacker") which
>> doesn't work. The 12vdc wall wart puts out only ~ 12.4v.
>>
>> I charged the lead-acid gel cell using a car charger. The charge rate
>> (selectable) was 0.5A. Afterward the trimmer seemed to work as new.
>>
>> Can the car charger be used to charge this battery? He can install a
>> timer to limit charge time if that's something required.
>>
>> Thanks.
>
> Go to a boat shop, feed store, hardware store, whatever, and get a float
> charger.
>
>
>

Get a gel-cell float charger. The recommended terminal charging voltage
for a gel-cell is slightly lower than for a standard lead acid.

[Ian Field]

"Jan Panteltje" <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:kgcpgh$ipp$1...@news.albasani.net...

Its a trick I often use if I have to, but increasingly I turn to the more
modern electronic/microcontroller type chargers that automatically switch to
trickle charge.

[Ian Field]

"dave" <rick...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1sadnWIBuIufjrfM...@earthlink.com...

How very convenient - till you have to pry off the glued on cover plate to
refill the gassed off electrolyte, then glue/tape it all back together.

[Ian Field]

"Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_v...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:72pWs.41135$Q91....@newsfe26.iad...

> Mike Cook wrote:
>> A friend has a battery powered Ryobi lawn trimmer ("weed whacker") which
>> doesn't work. The 12vdc wall wart puts out only ~ 12.4v.
>>
>> I charged the lead-acid gel cell using a car charger. The charge rate
>> (selectable) was 0.5A. Afterward the trimmer seemed to work as new. Can
>> the car charger be used to charge this battery? He can install a timer to
>> limit charge time if that's something required.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>
>
> THe OEM charger most likely is unfiltered. Put a cap on the output but do
> not connect it to the battery and then do a voltage check.

The old "iron-transformer" chargers were usually impedance limited, so the
off load voltage will be significantly more than nominal (enough to get a
mildly sulphated battery going). In addition a capacitor would charge to the
AC peak so what you read would be even higher still.

[John Fields]

---
That's a good thing, since it puts you squarely into the rank of a
"consumer", where you clearly belong, instead of into the ranks of
designers, where you've clearly demonstrated you don't belong.

I could be wrong of course, and I'd welcome any rebuttal you might
want to proffer with respect to the lamps and loads you used for
eliciting your various "tricks".

--
JF

[Mike Perkins]

On 24/02/2013 08:06, Mike Cook wrote:
> A friend has a battery powered Ryobi lawn trimmer ("weed whacker")
> which doesn't work. The 12vdc wall wart puts out only ~ 12.4v.
>
> I charged the lead-acid gel cell using a car charger. The charge
> rate (selectable) was 0.5A. Afterward the trimmer seemed to work as
> new.

For how long?

> Can the car charger be used to charge this battery? He can install a
> timer to limit charge time if that's something required.

Lead acid batteries are fickle things but last a long time if looked after.

I would prefer to use a charger that could detect end point and either
turn off or supply a constant voltage. There are some car battery
chargers that do this.

A final thing is to check battery terminal voltage. During a fast
charge you might accept a voltage of 14.5V, but under long term (float
charge) I wouldn't want the charger to push out more that 13.8V.

--
Mike Perkins
Video Solutions Ltd
www.videosolutions.ltd.uk

[Ian Field]

"John Fields" <jfi...@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:2dvni890e0mu6d56o...@4ax.com...

Indeed.

[John Fields]

On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 16:46:14 -0000, "Ian Field"

---
But, more than likely not, since I requested that you elaborate with
an explanation of your "tricks" and you reply with snippage and
dodging.

--
JF

[Ian Field]

"John Fields" <jfi...@austininstruments.com> wrote in message

news:gh9qi8t3alcietnh2...@4ax.com...

No you didn't (the senility really is robbing your faculties!) The trick was
already described by someone else - I merely replied I do that too (and no -
I can't be bothered drawing pictures because you're too thick to
understand).

You're not only wrong, but stumbling about in a state of advanced dementia.

[John Fields]

On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 21:43:13 -0000, "Ian Field"

---
My request was about having you describe the dynamics of a
light-bulb-in-series-with-a-battery current limiter which, no matter
how loudly or how long you squeal excuses about why you can't, you
can't, of course.

Unlike you, I've done empirical work which has resulted in published
plots of tungsten lamp filament resistances being functions of
voltages across, and currents through the filament.

I'll email you the plots, if you like.

Your admission to being a copycat hardly qualifies you as an
authority, and certainly explains why you "can't be bothered drawing
pictures" of what you can't envision.
---

>You're not only wrong, but stumbling about in a state of advanced dementia.

---
Wow, with your super-quick response, you must really want me to notice
you and have you suck my dick or have me fuck you up the ass...

Sorry, Charlie...

--
JF

[Jamie]

One of your fetishes?

Jamie

[John Fields]

On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 18:44:16 -0500, Jamie
<jamie_ka1lpa_not_v...@charter.net> wrote:

>John Fields wrote:

>> Wow, with your super-quick response, you must really want me to notice
>> you and have you suck my dick or have me fuck you up the ass...
>>
>> Sorry, Charlie...
>>
>One of your fetishes?
>
>Jamie

---
No, just conjecture, but it's interesting how, when the conversation
turns lewd, you people are drawn to it like a moth to a flame.

--
JF

[Ian Field]

"John Fields" <jfi...@austininstruments.com> wrote in message

news:mcbqi8t00ur6s6sk6...@4ax.com...

The bulb trick isn't that great because of its pronounced PTC
characteristic - as the filament voltage decreases the current doesn't
decrease in due proportion.

I did try to dumb it down for you - I do hope I didn't use too many big
words for you!

[Ian Field]

"John Fields" <jfi...@austininstruments.com> wrote in message

news:mcbqi8t00ur6s6sk6...@4ax.com...

[Ian Field]

"Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_v...@charter.net> wrote in message

news:CDbXs.151910$uU.4...@newsfe11.iad...

I'm not so sure "victim" is quite the right word for whoever JF singles out
for a tirade of foul mouthed abuse. He's a sad pathetic figure who's antics
serve only to further demonstrate to onlookers that he's lost the plot.

He's clearly too demented to have any embarassment about being so brave
from behind his keyboard.

[Ian Field]

"John Fields" <jfi...@austininstruments.com> wrote in message

news:cckri8tludvtpmuq5...@4ax.com...

As you're so keen - you can pick up butt pirates while you're standing on
street corners shouting at the passing traffic.

[John Fields]

On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 16:17:04 -0000, "Ian Field"

<gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>
>
>"John Fields" <jfi...@austininstruments.com> wrote in message

>news:mcbqi8t00ur6s6sk6...@4ax.com...

>> My request was about having you describe the dynamics of a
>> light-bulb-in-series-with-a-battery current limiter which, no matter
>> how loudly or how long you squeal excuses about why you can't, you
>> can't, of course.
>
>The bulb trick isn't that great because of its pronounced PTC
>characteristic - as the filament voltage decreases the current doesn't
>decrease in due proportion.

---
???

If a you want the current to change linearly with voltage, then a
simple resistor will do the trick so, obviously, you don't understand
how the bulb trick works.
---

>I did try to dumb it down for you - I do hope I didn't use too many big
>words for you!

---
The words are no problem but it seems, for you, the theory _is_.

Would you like me to explain how the bulb trick works in terms even
you could understand?
--
JF

[John Fields]

On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 16:17:04 -0000, "Ian Field"

---
Posted the same thing twice, huh?

Must be exciting to have some old dude ruffle your feathers to the
point where you don't know whether you're coming or going!

Strange, but that reminds me of an old limerick:

There once was a young man from Kent
whose dick was so long that it bent.
To save him some trouble,
he stuck it in double,
And instead of coming he went.

Certainly a problem you'll never have to contend with.

--
JF

[John Fields]

---
You pretend to sagacity and literacy and yet use a contraction when
the use of a possessive pronoun is de rigueur?

Tsk, tsk, tsk.
---

>He's clearly too demented to have any embarassment about being so brave
>from behind his keyboard.

---
It's amazing how semi-macho you faggot pukes get when you've been
cornered.

--
JF

[John Fields]

---
It seems to me that you're the captain of that ship, you're flying the
"Jolly Roger" with crossed dicks, and there's never shore leave for
your crew.

Another limerick comes to mind:

Columbus had a cabin boy,
and Ian was the nipper.
He lined his ass
with broken glass
and circumcised the skipper.

--
JF

[Ian Field]

"John Fields" <jfi...@austininstruments.com> wrote in message

news:20qsi85cd3m4f18uh...@4ax.com...

Actually I was wondering if WLM is yet another flaky POS designed by you -
it sometimes jams up in the outbox, then sends it twice next time the app is
started.

[Ian Field]

"John Fields" <jfi...@austininstruments.com> wrote in message

news:rtosi81fiefb5ob9i...@4ax.com...

You're so scattered I wouldn't trust anything from you even if it "looked"
right!

All that weed you keep smoking has given you dopers crott.

[Jamie]

Well, a lot of us love to watch a circus side show..

Jamie

[Ian Field]

"Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_v...@charter.net> wrote in message

news:vOvXs.72571$lC2....@newsfe25.iad...

And it was JF who opened the door with his reference to his favourite
pastime of cocksucking.

[mike]

I understand how the light bulb works, but I'm very interested in
hearing YOUR explanation.

[John Fields]

On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 21:54:29 -0000, "Ian Field"

<gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>
>
>"John Fields" <jfi...@austininstruments.com> wrote in message

>news:20qsi85cd3m4f18uh...@4ax.com...

>> Posted the same thing twice, huh?
>
>
>Actually I was wondering if WLM is yet another flaky POS designed by you -
>it sometimes jams up in the outbox, then sends it twice next time the app is
>started.

---
Certainly if WLM was my creation it would work as advertised, as
everything I do does.

If it doesn't, for you, then I'd suspect cockpit error is the problem
and you should get in touch with Microsoft instead of whining about
your problems to me.

An easy solution for your problem would be for you to get a real
newsreader and blow off Microsoft, but how likely is that to happen
when all you want to do is fix the blame instead of the problem?

--
JF

[John Fields]

On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 22:02:54 -0000, "Ian Field"

---
So far, everything you thought "looked right" wasn't, so you're
certainly in no position to judge.
---

>All that weed you keep smoking has given you dopers crott.

---
You seem to be talking about something you know nothing about and
issuing edicts based on fear.

Do you have any experience with marijuana?
--
JF

[John Fields]

On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 17:41:03 -0500, Jamie

---
Especially, when for a couple of bucks, you can go backstage and watch
how a scantilly clad maiden escapes death?

--
JF

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jamie wrote:
> >
> Well, a lot of us love to watch a circus side show..

AKA: The Philbrick family reunion.

[Ian Field]

"John Fields" <jfi...@austininstruments.com> wrote in message

news:da3ti8t3271hgl1tu...@4ax.com...

> On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 21:54:29 -0000, "Ian Field"
> <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>"John Fields" <jfi...@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
>>news:20qsi85cd3m4f18uh...@4ax.com...
>
>>> Posted the same thing twice, huh?
>>
>>
>>Actually I was wondering if WLM is yet another flaky POS designed by you -
>>it sometimes jams up in the outbox, then sends it twice next time the app
>>is
>>started.
>
> ---
> Certainly if WLM was my creation it would work as advertised, as
> everything I do does.
>
> If it doesn't, for you, then I'd suspect cockpit error is the problem
> and you should get in touch with Microsoft instead of whining about
> your problems to me.

You were whining about the double post - I told you why that happened - now
you're doing yet more whining!!!

[Ian Field]

"John Fields" <jfi...@austininstruments.com> wrote in message

news:005ti8teodnr7f85q...@4ax.com...

From the scattered states I've seen dopers like you get in, I'm very glad I
know nothing about it.

[Ian Field]

"mike" <ham...@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:kgm2o9$pn9$1...@dont-email.me...

When the battery terminal voltage is low and the drop across the filament is
high; the bulb does its best job of current limiting - just when high
charging current would be no bad thing. As the battery terminal voltage
approaches or exceeds the required voltage, the inherent PTC characteristic
of the filament means as it cools its resistance falls, its much less
effective as a current limiter - just when the (possibly overcharging)
battery needs it most.

The bulb as a current limiter is less than ideal for battery charging - but
better than nothing if you don't have a float capable charger to hand.

I didn't bother to dumb it down for JF - you can draw pictures for him as a
homework excercise.

[mike]

So, you're saying that a light bulb can work very well for current charging
as long as you pick the voltage and the bulb correctly.

Also, a light bulb can work well to limit the maximum charge current
to stay within the limits of the battery and charger, even in the event
of shorted cells or other faults...as long as you pick the voltage
and bulb correctly.

You can do better. You can abuse any charge method.
IMHO, the bang for the buck of a light bulb current limiter is
second to none when properly applied.

[John Fields]

On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 17:12:44 -0000, "Ian Field"

---
Ignorance is bliss and, scattered, to you, seems to be your fearful
evaluation of someone functioning on a higher plane which isn't within
your grasp.

As we often say, "Reality is for those who can't handle drugs."

--
JF

[John Fields]

On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 17:09:46 -0000, "Ian Field"

<gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>
>
>"John Fields" <jfi...@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
>news:da3ti8t3271hgl1tu...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 21:54:29 -0000, "Ian Field"
>> <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"John Fields" <jfi...@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
>>>news:20qsi85cd3m4f18uh...@4ax.com...
>>
>>>> Posted the same thing twice, huh?
>>>
>>>
>>>Actually I was wondering if WLM is yet another flaky POS designed by you -
>>>it sometimes jams up in the outbox, then sends it twice next time the app
>>>is
>>>started.
>>
>> ---
>> Certainly if WLM was my creation it would work as advertised, as
>> everything I do does.
>>
>> If it doesn't, for you, then I'd suspect cockpit error is the problem
>> and you should get in touch with Microsoft instead of whining about
>> your problems to me.
>
>You were whining about the double post

---
Nope, just commenting on its having been posted twice by your nervous
little fingers.
---

> - I told you why that happened -

---
Yes, you did, but I've seen no other double posts from you that
support your position that "See what Microsoft made me do?" is valid.

Ergo, your blaming Microsoft for your inability to use their tools in
a workmanlike manner puts the onus on you to prove that their tools
are defective and, if you can't, brands you as at least deluded, or
one step up from that, an objective liar.

In the end, if you're serious and Microsoft gives you heartburn, you'd
get a non-Microsoft usenet client more suited to your vagaries.

You won't, of course, since you'd rather stay in the limelight and
cast aspersions.

--
JF

[Ian Field]

"mike" <ham...@netzero.net> wrote in message

news:kgoao8$g4j$1...@dont-email.me...

No - I didn't make any specific comments about bulb rating at all.

> Also, a light bulb can work well to limit the maximum charge current
> to stay within the limits of the battery and charger, even in the event
> of shorted cells or other faults...as long as you pick the voltage
> and bulb correctly.

If you'd bothered at all to read what I said - I made it clear that the
current curve vs filament temperature is pretty much the opposite of what
would be ideal for charging the battery.

In the context of the thread so far, typically an unregulated car type
charger would be used on a low Ah gel battery - the charger wouldn't need
any protection, but as the battery terminal voltage reaches and/or exceeds
the full level, the filament voltage is at a minimum, cold filament = low
resistance - so not much protection for the battery.

I merely conceded that in the absence of a float capable charger, its better
than nothing.

>
> You can do better. You can abuse any charge method.
> IMHO, the bang for the buck of a light bulb current limiter is
> second to none when properly applied.

On reflection - you're probably not the best choice to draw pictures so JF
can understand.

[John Fields]

On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 21:28:02 -0000, "Ian Field"

---
Open mouth, insert foot.

I think you've just alienated a well meaning and knowledgeable
potential ally...

--
JF

[John Fields]

On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 17:23:50 -0000, "Ian Field"

---
You didn't even "bother" to cite an example and the math required to
prove your point.

--
JF

[Ian Field]

"John Fields" <jfi...@austininstruments.com> wrote in message

news:24kvi8te55i1miuab...@4ax.com...

I call it as I see it - which any way you look at it, is better than the
senseless twaddle you spout.

[John Fields]

On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 22:14:10 -0000, "Ian Field"

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The blind looking for equity?
That's your first mistake.
--
JF

[Ian Field]

"John Fields" <jfi...@austininstruments.com> wrote in message

news:oflvi8tv3272d598l...@4ax.com...

Its a less than optimum method - I'm hardly likely to go out of my way to
encourage its use.

With the price of gel batteries, its cheaper in the long run to use a float
capable charger - especially as so many discount stores have them at very
reasonable prices.

I've learned to expect advice from you that seems like a cheap deal - but
works out costly in the end!

[John Fields]

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Without at least one example, the expectation is that that's just
another of your senseless arguments.

--
JF