Morning in America (a mesage to Republicans)
Michael Coburn
The long nightmare of attempting to make peace with Republicans has
finally ended. On Sunday, March 21, 2010 we broke all ties with the
lunatic fringe that was and still is, the Republican party.
The prancers had used a constant barrage of lies and deceit to misinform
the public concerning HCR legislation and they will continue to do so in
the days and weeks ahead. But unlike past relationships wherein the
Democratic party continually offered reasonable compromise so as to
achieve a more bipartisan base from which to build, we now enter the
phase of undisputed improvement. We no longer need to offer any
appeasements. And any such appeasements will be seen as agreement with
liars. Over the next few months middle class Americans can decide whether
they want decent government or government that merely serves the
corporations.
The Republicans have vowed to block all of the improvements to the
underlying HCR bill. Unfortunately for Republicans, these adjustments
are designed to restore the middle class prosperity that was destroyed in
a clotured Republican blockaded Senate. The party of puke will now be
pitted against all the improvements that deliver middle class prosperity.
Chief among these improvements to middle class well being is the
broadening of the Medicare tax; a proper adjustment that should have been
done long ago. There has never been any valid rationale for limiting the
Medicare tax to wages only. Unlike Social Security, all persons that
qualify for medicare receive exactly the same benefits regardless of what
they paid in wage taxes. It will be quite entertaining as we watch the
Republicans buck this. This tax broadening had to be limited to incomes
in excess of $250k in order to avoid the Republican attack dogs that
would have otherwise been unleashed. We would have seen a barrage of
loud and bold "Obama Lies" ads on every billboard in the nation
concerning Obama's pledge to not raise taxes on the middle class. In
reality, real middle class persons are protected from these taxes because
their "unearned income" is safely tax sheltered in a 401k or IRA. And
retired people taking funds from these accounts are also shielded. So
there is really no need for the $250k bottom and if more revenue is
needed in support of Medicare we can expect to see this $250K bottom
lowered or eliminated. Oh please, Republicans, stand up and be counted
in your opposition to this.
Then we have the elimination of the cornhusker kick back, and the tax on,
so called, "Cadillac insurance". And it will be great fun watching the
Republicans block this also.
It must be tempting to wait until August or so to roll these through the
Senate, but there may be a better plan. We can do these now and then in
August, roll out a national exchange and a Public Option with immediate
Medicare Buy In. No "reconciliation" needed. The heavy lifting is
over. You pukes are toast.
How's that "Waterloo" thing workin' out for ya?
--
"Senate rules don't trump the Constitution" -- http://GreaterVoice.org/60
AZDuffman
> The long nightmare of attempting to make peace with Republicans has
> finally ended. On Sunday, March 21, 2010 we broke all ties with the
> lunatic fringe that was and still is, the Republican party.
All the dumbocrats did yesteraday is to guarantee a 50 seat or more
HoR loss in november and the senate as well. Never before has one
party gone it alone and put in a piece of legislation Amercians said
loudly and clearly that they do not want. Never before has the
government said you must buy a product or go to jail. Never before
has socialism been so nakedly advanced.
The GOP will now take congress in November. Obama's popularity will
continue to fall. He will get nothing done in 2010 since his history
shows he cannot function even with a large majority and gets flustered
unless he has people fawning all over him.
Jimmy Carter paved the way for Ronald Reagan. Perhaps Obama just put
Newt Gingrich in the WH in 2012!
> How's that "Waterloo" thing workin' out for ya?
You will know on 11-3-2010.
hal
<srduf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Mar 22, 12:44=A0pm, Michael Coburn <mik...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> The long nightmare of attempting to make peace with Republicans has
>> finally ended. =A0On Sunday, March 21, 2010 we broke all ties with the
>> lunatic fringe that was and still is, the Republican party. =A0
>
>All the dumbocrats did yesteraday is to guarantee a 50 seat or more
>HoR loss in november and the senate as well. Never before has one
>party gone it alone and put in a piece of legislation Amercians said
>loudly and clearly that they do not want.
But most Americans did want it. The claim Americans didn't want
health care reform is a complete lie.
> Never before has the
>government said you must buy a product or go to jail. Never before
>has socialism been so nakedly advanced.
Oh waaa. Shut the fuck up. You have to get your car licensed or you
can go to jail. It's clearly irresponsible to run around with
healthcare then demand free care if you get hurt.
>
>The GOP will now take congress in November.
Only in your dreams. Everybody knows the Republicans are nothing but
corporate shills and don't give a shit about real Americans.
> Obama's popularity will
>continue to fall. He will get nothing done in 2010 since his history
>shows he cannot function even with a large majority and gets flustered
>unless he has people fawning all over him.
Betcha anything his ratings go way up because of his leadership and
victory in health care reform.
>
>Jimmy Carter paved the way for Ronald Reagan. Perhaps Obama just put
>Newt Gingrich in the WH in 2012!
BWWWWWWAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!
Newt Gingrich. Good one...
snicker.....
Sushi Fish
> The long nightmare of attempting to make peace with Republicans has
> finally ended. On Sunday, March 21, 2010 we broke all ties with the
> lunatic fringe that was and still is, the Republican party.
>
pres Obama found out - you can't work with them since they are always
right and have the right of ways. they are united for common chorus.
do you see a single rep member votes for the bill, if they do they are
no longer in KKK party.
> The prancers had used a constant barrage of lies and deceit to misinform
> the public concerning HCR legislation and they will continue to do so in
> the days and weeks ahead. But unlike past relationships wherein the
> Democratic party continually offered reasonable compromise so as to
> achieve a more bipartisan base from which to build, we now enter the
> phase of undisputed improvement. We no longer need to offer any
> appeasements. And any such appeasements will be seen as agreement with
> liars. Over the next few months middle class Americans can decide whether
> they want decent government or government that merely serves the
> corporations.
>
> The Republicans have vowed to block all of the improvements to the
> underlying HCR bill. Unfortunately for Republicans, these adjustments
> are designed to restore the middle class prosperity that was destroyed in
> a clotured Republican blockaded Senate. The party of puke will now be
> pitted against all the improvements that deliver middle class prosperity.
>
they claim abortion is "baby killing" and HCR must be stopped, what is
about the current laws that have permitted right of abortion (with
condition.) why they didn't oppose it before why now?
No, I don't just go for the welfare of middle class, I am for the 90%
bottom of American, and at this moment, health industry have a
monopoly on them and the republican party is paid to support the
monopoly in endless one pretext to another. Rep throw a hook and hang
on the their hook until they discover a new hook.
Health care industry is now at 2.5 trillions, a staggering number that
represent 20% of US GPD to the rep it represents a huge taxable income
and contribute to the inflated GDP. This number doesn't grow in linear
fashion, it quietly grows in exponential fashion until it crashes the
whole economy. Americans haven't learned the wall street lessons until
it become too late.
8.5 millions Californians don't have insurance that is 1 in 4 - the
number of 31 million uninsured Americans are hugely under reported to
hide US huge problem to the world, the real number in my estimate is
50+ millions. With the current cost of medicine within the context of
current economy, this affect all Americans
Political orphans?
babeejm
>DC will never bew that shining city on a hill!!
AZDuffman
> >All the dumbocrats did yesteraday is to guarantee a 50 seat or more
> >HoR loss in november and the senate as well. Never before has one
> >party gone it alone and put in a piece of legislation Amercians said
> >loudly and clearly that they do not want.
>
> But most Americans did want it. The claim Americans didn't want
> health care reform is a complete lie.
Polls show they did not want it. 30,000+ came to DC to show how much
they didn't want it. You should watch somehting more fair and
balanced than MSNBC.
> > Never before has the
> >government said you must buy a product or go to jail. Never before
> >has socialism been so nakedly advanced.
>
> Oh waaa. Shut the fuck up. You have to get your car licensed or you
> can go to jail. It's clearly irresponsible to run around with
> healthcare then demand free care if you get hurt.
When are you lefties going to give up on that one? First you don't
have to drive. Second auto insurance is "liability" insurance. You
don't have to get "full" auto coverage unless you finance or choose to
do so. Finally, who says you are demanding care for "free?" Let me
pay my bill in cash or on my credit card. Let me get a high-
deductible hospitalization only plan with a medical savings account
which is a far cheaper and smarter way to provide for yourself.
Just because you go to the ER and don't pay does not mean everyone
will follow your bad example.
>
> >The GOP will now take congress in November.
>
> Only in your dreams. Everybody knows the Republicans are nothing but
> corporate shills and don't give a shit about real Americans.
The Democrats are the ones who are owned by union thugs, trial
lawyers, and half a dozen other special interest groups. If the
Democrats were the ones who cared about Americans they wouldn't force
laws Amercia doesn't want on them.
> > Obama's popularity will
> >continue to fall. He will get nothing done in 2010 since his history
> >shows he cannot function even with a large majority and gets flustered
> >unless he has people fawning all over him.
>
> Betcha anything his ratings go way up because of his leadership and
> victory in health care reform.
So "leadership" is skipping House-Senate conference because you can't
get even one of the opposition party to vote with youy and you are
afraid to try. Also "leadership" is cutting dozens of special deals
with your own party. And "leadership" is barely even getting a vote
in favor despite all of that? A monkey at the zoo could hafve done
better.
>
> >Jimmy Carter paved the way for Ronald Reagan. Perhaps Obama just put
> >Newt Gingrich in the WH in 2012!
>
> BWWWWWWAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!
>
> Newt Gingrich. Good one...
He will be a good POTUS that is for sure. A houseplant is better than
what we have now.
hal
<srduf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Mar 22, 2:08=A0pm, hal wrote:
>
>> >All the dumbocrats did yesteraday is to guarantee a 50 seat or more
>> >HoR loss in november and the senate as well. =A0Never before has one
>> >party gone it alone and put in a piece of legislation Amercians said
>> >loudly and clearly that they do not want.
>>
>> But most Americans did want it. =A0The claim Americans didn't want
>> health care reform is a complete lie. =A0
>
>Polls show they did not want it. 30,000+ came to DC to show how much
>they didn't want it. You should watch somehting more fair and
>balanced than MSNBC.
>
Polls from Gallup and Rasmussen are proven to be slighted towards
conservative causes using push polling and selective sampling.
>
>
>> > Never before has the
>> >government said you must buy a product or go to jail. =A0Never before
>> >has socialism been so nakedly advanced.
>>
>> Oh waaa. =A0Shut the fuck up. =A0You have to get your car licensed or you
>> can go to jail. =A0It's clearly irresponsible to run around with
>> healthcare then demand free care if you get hurt. =A0
>
>When are you lefties going to give up on that one? First you don't
>have to drive. Second auto insurance is "liability" insurance. You
>don't have to get "full" auto coverage unless you finance or choose to
>do so. Finally, who says you are demanding care for "free?" Let me
>pay my bill in cash or on my credit card. Let me get a high-
>deductible hospitalization only plan with a medical savings account
>which is a far cheaper and smarter way to provide for yourself.
>
>Just because you go to the ER and don't pay does not mean everyone
>will follow your bad example.
That's exactly what people are doing though. They get hurt and run
into the ER to get treated and then claim they can't pay. My wife
works in a hospital, and they have to eat hundreds of thousands a year
in unpaid procedures, mostly ER stuff from uninsured people. Why
should people be allowed to run around without insurance then demand
free care by claiming they can't pay?
>
>>
>> >The GOP will now take congress in November.
>>
>> Only in your dreams. =A0Everybody knows the Republicans are nothing but
>> corporate shills and don't give a shit about real Americans.
>
>The Democrats are the ones who are owned by union thugs, trial
>lawyers, and half a dozen other special interest groups. If the
>Democrats were the ones who cared about Americans they wouldn't force
>laws Amercia doesn't want on them.
Stop lying. Americans wanted health care reform. Only you racist
conservatives didn't want it because you know more minorities will be
getting subsidized care.
>
>
>> > =A0Obama's popularity will
>> >continue to fall. =A0He will get nothing done in 2010 since his history
>> >shows he cannot function even with a large majority and gets flustered
>> >unless he has people fawning all over him.
>>
>> Betcha anything his ratings go way up because of his leadership and
>> victory in health care reform.
>
>So "leadership" is skipping House-Senate conference because you can't
>get even one of the opposition party to vote with youy and you are
>afraid to try. Also "leadership" is cutting dozens of special deals
>with your own party. And "leadership" is barely even getting a vote
>in favor despite all of that? A monkey at the zoo could hafve done
>better.
The Republicans were voting against Obama in a block simply because
they knew they could not give him a victory. They are clearly
desperate for him to fail, otherwise they will be out of power for
decades, maybe forever. We can only hope.
>>
>> >Jimmy Carter paved the way for Ronald Reagan. =A0Perhaps Obama just put
>> >Newt Gingrich in the WH in 2012!
>>
>> BWWWWWWAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!
>>
>> Newt Gingrich. =A0Good one...
>
>He will be a good POTUS that is for sure. A houseplant is better than
>what we have now.
>
How would you know considering you are the one who is no smarter than
a houseplant.
AZDuffman
> >Polls show they did not want it. 30,000+ came to DC to show how much
> >they didn't want it. You should watch somehting more fair and
> >balanced than MSNBC.
>
> Polls from Gallup and Rasmussen are proven to be slighted towards
> conservative causes using push polling and selective sampling.
Gallup and Rasmussen are proven to be the most accurate pollsters no
mater how much liberals hate the results.
> >Just because you go to the ER and don't pay does not mean everyone
> >will follow your bad example.
>
> That's exactly what people are doing though. They get hurt and run
> into the ER to get treated and then claim they can't pay. My wife
> works in a hospital, and they have to eat hundreds of thousands a year
> in unpaid procedures, mostly ER stuff from uninsured people. Why
> should people be allowed to run around without insurance then demand
> free care by claiming they can't pay?
So, ramp up the collection efforts. A good place to start would to be
to allow ERs to attach income tax refunds and EIC money these people
are getting. Why send people who can and will pay to jail if they
don't want insurance?
> >The Democrats are the ones who are owned by union thugs, trial
> >lawyers, and half a dozen other special interest groups. If the
> >Democrats were the ones who cared about Americans they wouldn't force
> >laws Amercia doesn't want on them.
>
> Stop lying. Americans wanted health care reform. Only you racist
> conservatives didn't want it because you know more minorities will be
> getting subsidized care.
Aha-a sure sign a liberal knows they are losing an argument is when
they play the racist card. But I bet you can't wait for amnesty so
illegals can get coverage without being illegals, just like we told
you would happen.
> >> Betcha anything his ratings go way up because of his leadership and
> >> victory in health care reform.
>
> >So "leadership" is skipping House-Senate conference because you can't
> >get even one of the opposition party to vote with youy and you are
> >afraid to try. Also "leadership" is cutting dozens of special deals
> >with your own party. And "leadership" is barely even getting a vote
> >in favor despite all of that? A monkey at the zoo could hafve done
> >better.
>
> The Republicans were voting against Obama in a block simply because
> they knew they could not give him a victory. They are clearly
> desperate for him to fail, otherwise they will be out of power for
> decades, maybe forever. We can only hope.
So, it wasn't becaue they didn't want a busget-busting bill; a bill
that shreds the Constitution; or anything like that? As to being in
power, they will take Congress in November, no one but liberal
blowhards denies that.
>
> >> >Jimmy Carter paved the way for Ronald Reagan. =A0Perhaps Obama just put
> >> >Newt Gingrich in the WH in 2012!
>
> >> BWWWWWWAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!
>
> >> Newt Gingrich. =A0Good one...
>
> >He will be a good POTUS that is for sure. A houseplant is better than
> >what we have now.
>
> How would you know considering you are the one who is no smarter than
> a houseplant.
I'm smart enough to vote conservative. I'd vote liberal but I know
how to get a job.
Rock Brentwood
> The long nightmare of attempting to make peace with Republicans has
> finally ended.
perpetuating their Kabuki dance around each other so as to distract us
from noticing their tacit alliance to drown out the airwaves and
distract us from voicing the correct and relevant issues].
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.rush-limbaugh/msg/7ba00e51529c5a05?hl=en&dmode=source
talk.polirics.misc
2008 November 4
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.republicans/msg/f0acbae6f45f9ff2?hl=en&dmode=source
sci.physics
2009 April 24
2009 April 24 10:06
kdth...@yahoo.com wrote:
> For what it is worth, those opposed to the insanty of the carbon tax
> should let their representative in Congress know.
Since this is the physics group, we'll make this a physics issue.
A parable: if the paper on which the US Constitution were originally
written were to be stretched to 30 times its original size, it would
begin to exhibit tears and cracks within it that were not originally
present, but which appear solely as a consequence of the fact that the
fabric of the Republic is not invariant under transformation of scale.
A representative, today, has on average 700,000 constituents. Around
the time of the founding of the Republic, there were somewhere around
30 times fewer people and a scale more along the lines of an
aldermanic district today (50,000 to 100,000) was the size of
representation.
If you were to take every second of the 2 years a representative is in
Congress and divide it equally among the constituents (about 62-63
million seconds) that would come out to about 90 seconds of audience
time per person. And this is assuming the representative is awake 24
hours a day, every day, and is doing nothing but meeting with their
representatives.
When you factor in overhead -- and factor in the time for the
representative to actually DO their job in Washington -- a figure more
like 5-10 seconds would be reasonable.
To even so much as spend more than 5-10 seconds paying attention to
you or to any other individual the representative represents is
something that can only be done at everyone else's expense.
> Although they are intent upon the impostition upon our civil and human
> rights by their programs, there may be some value in letting them know
> that their is very real and VALID opposition.
Because of this bottleneck, the very premise of one vote one person
and the premise of representative parliaments is -- to its very core
-- UNdemocratic. It doesn't matter whether its your issue or any other
issue. The very existence of Congress lies at the root of the problem
that has emerged progressively over the past 100 years and more as a
direct consequence of the fact that the fabric of the Republic has
outgrown its original scale and is now completely torn to shreds.
This is an edited version of a letter I sent to Dr. Kauffman (shortly
following my appearance at his seminars at UI-Chicago) regarding
matters we had briefly discussed, pertaining to this issue (and to the
larger issue it is a part of), before we parted -- an issue that was
once addressed by no less than the famed geneticist, Haldane: scale-
noninvariance in political structures.
Dr. Kauffmann,
As promised, I wanted to describe my perspective on what's been
happening to the US since last September. Much of what's gone on in
2008-2009 I've been expecting and (literally) waiting for since before
2006. The events are, in no way, surprising or unexpected.
In 2006, Toffler came out with the 4th sequel to Future Shock, a book
called "Revolutionary Wealth", which described in some detail just
what the end of the 20th century monetary system would entail. This
book is an addendum to the 1980 Third Wave (itself, the first sequel
to Future Shock) in which the outcome of the "Post-Industrial"
revolution is described in some detail. Much of what's described
there is already here (particularly since the rise of wireless, cell
phones, Cyberspace, virtual economies, social networking, etc.)
The 2006 book may be thought of as an expansion of the "21st Century
Democracy" section of the 1980 book (in which, by the way, was
described the 2000 electoral impasse that was then still 20 years in
the future).
The 2006 book spelled out in some detail what's gone on in 2008 (even
making scathing reference to the well-known 2008 catch phrase "the
fundamentals are sound" in its section "The Deep Fundamentals").
I read the book in more detail a few months after we met and it fully
jibes with what I started to describe regarding the future of the US
economy.
At the time I didn't explain in full my understanding of what's going
on, other than to point out that I suspected that it was all grounded
ultimately in the budgetary insolvency of the US. Time has borne that
out dramatically.
The nature and source of the impasse, itself, can be easily
understood, however. It's not at all complicated. But the conclusions
are dramatic.
The first place you see this is to tabulate how much time each
constituent has with their representative, if the time is divided
equally 24/7. At an average of 700,000 people per rep (3,000,000 for
senators) at 63 million seconds, it's about 90 seconds per person.
Hence -- the twin problems of (a) the Bottleneck -- the decision-
making Bottleneck of the representatives having to make decisions on
behalf of 700,000 people and (b) the Disconnect: the people are out of
touch with Washington and the purse-string decisions that involve the
money they pay in taxes.
The root of the problem is that the structure of the government is not
scale-invariant. A parable illustrates the point: if the paper the
constitution were orginally written on were to be stretched to 30
times its original size, it would begin to exhibit cracks and tears in
it that were not originally present, but which arise solely as a
consequence of the fact that the fabric of the Republic is not
invariant under a change of scale.
The US is 30 times larger than it was at its founding. A more suitable
scale for representation was explicitly described in the constitution
(50,000 or above). We're well past that point.
The consequences of the bottleneck and disconnect problem are that
(a) the "redress of grievances" that is the constitutional exercise of
power granted to people can only be done through a funnel to fit in
through the bottleneck.
(b) the "pursestring decisions" that representatives are obliged to do
can only be done en masse on the other end of the bottleneck. This
leads to (a) the funnelling of redresses collectively into "special
interest groups"; and (b) the emergence of such measures as "earmarks"
-- spending clauses that are added in without direct debate.
If one were to directly debate all the 2009 earmarks (around
5000-10000 of them) it would take the better part of a decade. Yet
that's only 1% of the budget.
So, there is a simple breakdown that has arisen solely as a
consequence that the very structure of the government is not scale-
invariant and has been completely outstripped by the size of this
country.
Correspondingly, there is a disconnect of the people. Another parable
illustrates the point: Each person has attached to them 2 ropes. One
rope pulls them out to the horizon toward Washington which they resist
with all their effort. The other rope also goes out toward the
horizon. They're trying to pull on it to get stuff from Washington
and the rope's not moving.
The Disconnect is that the people cannot (or will not) look far enough
beyond the horizon to see why one rope is pulling them in, while the
other rope which they're pulling on refuses to budge. If they look
beyond the horizon they will see that the rope yanking on them goes to
Washington, wraps around the pillars of power, and comes back as the
rope that they're yanking on.
So, every representative who goes to Washington, on account of the
Disconnect problem, is faced with the losing proposition of trying to
bring goodies back home from Washington (or else they lose the next
election), while simultaneously trying to avoid having their people
taxed for it (or else they lose the next election).
What started out as small budgetary impasse in the 19th century grew
larger and larger as the 20th century passed on. By the end of World
War II, especially with the Cold War (a.k.a. World War III) upon us,
it became an annual deficit.
Consequently, every year since 1959 when Nixon was Vice President, the
US has had a budget deficit. Nixon lost the 1960 election largely
because of the 1959 surplus.
His defeat was an omen heralding the arrival of the Disconnect
problem.
So every year for the past half-century there has been a deficit.
This includes the so-called "surplus years" of 1999-2001. There was no
surplus. The OMB, since 1997, simply quit using the actual numbers
reported by the Bureau of Public Debt. That's why "surpluses" suddenly
emerged a couple years later.
Only the Bureau of Public Debt contains the actual bottom line. In
2000 the debt was actually about 40 million higher than the previous
year -- a 40 million dollar deficit. That's close break-even. But it's
still a deficit.
So, by the end of the 20th century the progressive decline of the
problem had reached a head. The growth of the problem, overall, over
the past 150 years mirrors the growth of the scale of the nation. It's
partly by that account that you can see the link with the issue of
scale and scale breakdown.
A similar situation occurred in Europe c. 1000-1200. A huge population
explosion took place, along with a substantial rise in prosperity.
Pretty quickly things got to be so big, that it outstripped the
ability of any monarch to effectively control. The scale breakdown
inevitably led to the rise of several equivalents of Magna Cartas over
the continent, not just in Britain.
It was only because in the 1300's that the population dropped (because
of the Plague) that things even had a chance to temporarly revert back
to the earlier phase. But the phase was crossed once again by the
1400's onward, this time irreversibly. So, by the 1500's-1800's
parliaments took the place of kings and queens.
Now, our situation is similar and serves as a book end to that
evolution. It's now the parliaments that have become outstripped by
the change in scale. Now they are the ones who, like the kings and
queens of old, have become completely impotent. This nation -- and
others like it in the world -- is simply too big to be run with a
representative legislative body.
The root of the budgetary problem in the US (and in many other
countries in the world) is the very existence of Congress. The
solution -- whatever it may be -- will necessarily involve Congress to
cease to exist and for all of its pursestring powers to be revoked and
brought back directly to the general population over Cyberspace.
Hence Toffler's "21st Century Democracy" of the 1980 "Third Wave".
Rock Brentwood
of the Republic and its looming insolvency have only just begun.
A(n updated) reposting from sci.econ, 1995: This should be updated
again, to add to the litany in the first paragraph of ridcuously
parochial assessments, the latest one to take roost in the past few
years "it's all the c. 2004-2008 Republican's fault".
Bear in mind, also, that in this update, I've only take the official
figures (i.e. those provided by the Bureau of Public Debt) to c. 2000.
What's happened over the decade to follow makes the dramatic
assessment below utterly pale in comparison; and whatever sense of
insolvency was purveyed by the article below has SUBSTANTIALLY
magnified.
World War III (was: Constitutional Convention)
sci.econ
1995 April 19
Some extra details from the "Constitutional Convention" article have
been filled in. The authors of "Bankruptcy 1995" wrongly point out
that this malaise started with Johnson and his attempt to fight both
poverty and Vietnam. That's a ridiculously parochial assessment. The
facts and ultimate cause are what are described below.
The fact is that America has run up deficits basically when (and only
when) it's been in a state of war. In case anyone's forgotten that
includes the majority of the "post-war" period. The US has been in a
constant state of war essentially between 1950 and 1992.
In 1950, World War III began. It had precursors going back a couple
years. This war was fought or was about to be fought on 3 fronts:
Europe, South East Asia and the Korean Penninsula & Manchuria.
As fortune would have it, only the last two fronts materialized. Even
there, the South-East Asian front simmered for 15 years before it
flared up (Vietnam). The Korean-Manchurian front only panned out into
a stalemate in Korea.
These were all battles of the Cold War: World War III.
Deficits were run up in the following years after World War II:
1946,1950,1952-55,1958-9,1961-8,1970-now.
with the 1950, 1952-55 period being a direct consequence of Korea.
Other than this, direct conflict in World War III was avoided because
of the nukes, so it turned out to be primarily a war of attrition.
Whoever was the richer and stronger economy would ultimately emerge
victorious by bankrupting the other.
Unfortunately, it lingered on for 4 decades climaxing in the arms
build-up of the 1980's which broke the back of the Soviet Union and
essentially did the same to the United States -- except that with the
US, the stronger economy, the effects were absorbed and so the final
outcome was delayed by about a decade.
But the final outcome will be the same, bankruptcy, insolvency,
dissolution and conversion into a loosely bound and decentralized
confederation.
The annual deficit 1964-1993.
(x = $8 billion, or about $80/household in current terms).
(* = $8 billion from the Social Security Trust Fund)
Starting in 1985 a chunk was taken out of the trust fund to cover the
debt. That's included in the total below. That chunk is almost 1
trillion by 1993.
The TOTAL deficit from 1946-63 is about $30 billion, which amounts to
about 4 x's in all.
An actual surplus!
|
Clinton Bush Reagan Carter Ford Nixon v
Johnson
_____________________________________________________________.____________
* * * * * * * * * x x x x x x x x x x x x x x . x
x . . x
* * * * * * * * * x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
* * * * * * * * * x x x x x x x x x x x x x
* * * * * * * * * x x x x x x x x x x
* * * * * * * * * x x x x x x x x x x
* * * * * * * * x x x x x x x x x x
* * * * * * * * x x x x x x x x x x
* * * * * * * * x x x x x x x
* * * * * * * * x x x x x x x
* * * * * * * * x x x x x
* * * * * * x x x x x x
* * * * * * x x x x x x
* * * * * x x x x x x x
* * * * * x x x x x x x
* x * * x x x x x x x x
* x * x x x x x x x x x
* x x x x x x x x x x
* x x x x x x x x x x
* x x x x x x x x x x
* x x x x x x x x x x
x x x x x x x x x x x
x x x x x x x x x x x
x x x x x x x x x x x
x x x x x x x x x x
x x x x x x x x x x
x x x x x x x x x x
x x x x x x x x x
x x x x x x x x x
x x x x x x x x
x x x x x x x x
x x x x x x x x
x x x x x x x
x x x x x x
x x x x x
x x x x x
x x x x x
x x x x x
x x x x x
x x x x
x x x x
x x x x
x x x x
x x x
x x x
x x x
x x x
x x x
x x x
x x x
x x
x
Rock Brentwood
> The TOTAL deficit from 1946-63 is about $30 billion, which amounts to
> about 4 x's in all.
> An actual surplus!
> |
> Clinton Bush Reagan Carter Ford Nixon v
> Johnson
Also, this was not updated to give the ACTUAL figures from the Bureau
of Public Debt. So the "surpluses" are not. The last year in which the
US registered a decrease in its Public Debt was 1959.
The Bureau's Total Debt web site:
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np
hal
<srduf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Mar 22, 3:02=A0pm, hal wrote:
>
>> >Polls show they did not want it. =A030,000+ came to DC to show how much
>> >they didn't want it. =A0You should watch somehting more fair and
>> >balanced than MSNBC.
>>
>> Polls from Gallup and Rasmussen are proven to be slighted towards
>> conservative causes using push polling and selective sampling.
>
>Gallup and Rasmussen are proven to be the most accurate pollsters no
>mater how much liberals hate the results.
Liar.
>
>
>
>> >Just because you go to the ER and don't pay does not mean everyone
>> >will follow your bad example.
>>
>> That's exactly what people are doing though. =A0They get hurt and run
>> into the ER to get treated and then claim they can't pay. =A0My wife
>> works in a hospital, and they have to eat hundreds of thousands a year
>> in unpaid procedures, mostly ER stuff from uninsured people. =A0Why
>> should people be allowed to run around without insurance then demand
>> free care by claiming they can't pay?
>
>So, ramp up the collection efforts. A good place to start would to be
>to allow ERs to attach income tax refunds and EIC money these people
>are getting. Why send people who can and will pay to jail if they
>don't want insurance?
Everybody should have medical insurance, because everybody needs
medical care.
>
>
>> >The Democrats are the ones who are owned by union thugs, trial
>> >lawyers, and half a dozen other special interest groups. =A0If the
>> >Democrats were the ones who cared about Americans they wouldn't force
>> >laws Amercia doesn't want on them.
>>
>> Stop lying. =A0Americans wanted health care reform. =A0Only you racist
>> conservatives didn't want it because you know more minorities will be
>> getting subsidized care.
>
>Aha-a sure sign a liberal knows they are losing an argument is when
>they play the racist card. But I bet you can't wait for amnesty so
>illegals can get coverage without being illegals, just like we told
>you would happen.
>
>
>
>> >> Betcha anything his ratings go way up because of his leadership and
>> >> victory in health care reform.
>>
>> >So "leadership" is skipping House-Senate conference because you can't
>> >get even one of the opposition party to vote with youy and you are
>> >afraid to try. =A0Also "leadership" is cutting dozens of special deals
>> >with your own party. =A0And "leadership" is barely even getting a vote
>> >in favor despite all of that? =A0A monkey at the zoo could hafve done
>> >better.
>>
>> The Republicans were voting against Obama in a block simply because
>> they knew they could not give him a victory. =A0They are clearly
>> desperate for him to fail, otherwise they will be out of power for
>> decades, maybe forever. =A0We can only hope.
>
>So, it wasn't becaue they didn't want a busget-busting bill; a bill
>that shreds the Constitution; or anything like that? As to being in
>power, they will take Congress in November, no one but liberal
>blowhards denies that.
Won't happen because people will start to see the benefits of health
care reform and will see through the conservative lies and understand
it really was a good thing all along. And no one is going to vote to
repeal protections enjoyed by middle class Americans that they will
gain from this legislation.
>
>>
>> >> >Jimmy Carter paved the way for Ronald Reagan. =3DA0Perhaps Obama just=
> put
>> >> >Newt Gingrich in the WH in 2012!
>>
>> >> BWWWWWWAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!
>>
>> >> Newt Gingrich. =3DA0Good one...
>>
>> >He will be a good POTUS that is for sure. =A0A houseplant is better than
>> >what we have now.
>>
>> How would you know considering you are the one who is no smarter than
>> a houseplant.
>
>I'm smart enough to vote conservative. I'd vote liberal but I know
>how to get a job.
>
All the studies show that liberals have a higher IQ and are more
educated. Look it up.
Econotron
news:ho86o...@news7.newsguy.com...
>
[toxic, nonsensical rant snipped]
>
Morning? It is 12:30 pm already. If you hadn't slept that late, you might
have noticed that the morning was of a different kind. Give it a few weeks
for the Champaign to lose its bubbles.
e.
AZDuffman
> >Gallup and Rasmussen are proven to be the most accurate pollsters no
> >mater how much liberals hate the results.
>
> Liar.
Yes, you are.
> >So, ramp up the collection efforts. A good place to start would to be
> >to allow ERs to attach income tax refunds and EIC money these people
> >are getting. Why send people who can and will pay to jail if they
> >don't want insurance?
>
> Everybody should have medical insurance, because everybody needs
> medical care.
Why does that mean you need insurance? I see a doctor maybe once
every two years. Why do I need anythong more than a total bare-bones
plan, if that?
> Won't happen because people will start to see the benefits of health
> care reform and will see through the conservative lies and understand
> it really was a good thing all along. And no one is going to vote to
> repeal protections enjoyed by middle class Americans that they will
> gain from this legislation.
Just watch it happen. America has never been this upset with
government. 11% approval rating for Congress. Besides, there are
already several states planning to sue. Obama is on dope if he thinks
Americans will "learn to like this" plan.
> >I'm smart enough to vote conservative. I'd vote liberal but I know
> >how to get a job.
>
> All the studies show that liberals have a higher IQ and are more
> educated. Look it up.
If liberals were so much smarter than conservatives they would be able
to make it in the real world outside government and universities. I
meet few who can even argue a point for more than 30 seconds without
resorting to calling names like "racist, sexist, bigoted homophobe."
Rod Speed
Not everyone does need medical care in great chunks of their life.
And medical insurance isnt the only way to cover what medical care they need either.
Yes, that always happens eventually. Likely too soon before
the next election for that to be what happens this time tho.
> And no one is going to vote to repeal protections enjoyed by
> middle class Americans that they will gain from this legislation.
Quite a few of the fools will.
And those who realise that a universal medicare would be much better too.
Michael Coburn
For those of us who live in the real (inflation adjusted and GDP
adjusted) world:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt
Rod Speed
> On Mar 22, 4:54 pm, hal wrote:
>
>
>>> Gallup and Rasmussen are proven to be the most accurate pollsters no
>>> mater how much liberals hate the results.
>>
>> Liar.
>
> Yes, you are.
>
>
>
>>> So, ramp up the collection efforts. A good place to start would to
>>> be to allow ERs to attach income tax refunds and EIC money these
>>> people are getting. Why send people who can and will pay to jail if
>>> they don't want insurance?
>>
>> Everybody should have medical insurance, because everybody needs
>> medical care.
>
> Why does that mean you need insurance? I see a doctor maybe once
> every two years. Why do I need anythong more than a total bare-bones
> plan, if that?
>
>> Won't happen because people will start to see the benefits of health
>> care reform and will see through the conservative lies and understand
>> it really was a good thing all along. And no one is going to vote to
>> repeal protections enjoyed by middle class Americans that they will
>> gain from this legislation.
> Just watch it happen.
Bet it doesnt.
> America has never been this upset with government.
Hardly surprising given your clowns just completely imploded the entire world financial system, again.
> 11% approval rating for Congress.
> Besides, there are already several states planning to sue.
They can sue all they like, they will lose, you watch.
> Obama is on dope if he thinks Americans will "learn to like this" plan.
Or maybe he has noticed that thats what happened in every single
modern first and second world country thats made a significant change
and happened in the US with medicare too.
>>> I'm smart enough to vote conservative. I'd vote liberal but I know
>>> how to get a job.
>>
>> All the studies show that liberals have a higher IQ and are more
>> educated. Look it up.
>
> If liberals were so much smarter than conservatives they would be able
> to make it in the real world outside government and universities. I
> meet few who can even argue a point for more than 30 seconds without
> resorting to calling names like "racist, sexist, bigoted homophobe."
Corse you never ever call names yourself, eh ?
hal
<srduf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Mar 22, 4:54=A0pm, hal wrote:
>
>
>> >Gallup and Rasmussen are proven to be the most accurate pollsters no
>> >mater how much liberals hate the results.
>>
>> Liar. =A0
>
>Yes, you are.
>
>
>
>> >So, ramp up the collection efforts. =A0A good place to start would to be
>> >to allow ERs to attach income tax refunds and EIC money these people
>> >are getting. =A0Why send people who can and will pay to jail if they
>> >don't want insurance?
>>
>> Everybody should have medical insurance, because everybody needs
>> medical care. =A0
>
>Why does that mean you need insurance? I see a doctor maybe once
>every two years. Why do I need anythong more than a total bare-bones
>plan, if that?
Anyone can unexpectedly come down with a catastrophic illness or get
into an accident, at work, at home, or in the car. No one is
invincible, and everyone, without exception, needs medical care at
least a few times in their lives, and more as they get older.
>
>> Won't happen because people will start to see the benefits of health
>> care reform and will see through the conservative lies and understand
>> it really was a good thing all along. =A0And no one is going to vote to
>> repeal protections enjoyed by middle class Americans that they will
>> gain from this legislation.
>
>Just watch it happen. America has never been this upset with
>government. 11% approval rating for Congress. Besides, there are
>already several states planning to sue. Obama is on dope if he thinks
>Americans will "learn to like this" plan.
They have no grounds for a suit. It will get thrown out.
>
>
>
>> >I'm smart enough to vote conservative. =A0I'd vote liberal but I know
>> >how to get a job.
>>
>> All the studies show that liberals have a higher IQ and are more
>> educated. =A0Look it up.
>
>If liberals were so much smarter than conservatives they would be able
>to make it in the real world outside government and universities. I
>meet few who can even argue a point for more than 30 seconds without
>resorting to calling names like "racist, sexist, bigoted homophobe."
I know calling you for what you are hurts, but you've proven what you
think and why. You show your hatred in everything you say.
Rod Speed
> On Mon, 22 Mar 2010 14:32:59 -0700 (PDT), AZDuffman
> <srduf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mar 22, 4:54=A0pm, hal wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> Gallup and Rasmussen are proven to be the most accurate pollsters
>>>> no mater how much liberals hate the results.
>>>
>>> Liar. =A0
>>
>> Yes, you are.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> So, ramp up the collection efforts. =A0A good place to start would
>>>> to be to allow ERs to attach income tax refunds and EIC money
>>>> these people are getting. =A0Why send people who can and will pay
>>>> to jail if they don't want insurance?
>>>
>>> Everybody should have medical insurance, because everybody needs
>>> medical care. =A0
>>
>> Why does that mean you need insurance? I see a doctor maybe once
>> every two years. Why do I need anythong more than a total bare-bones
>> plan, if that?
>
> Anyone can unexpectedly come down with a catastrophic illness
> or get into an accident, at work, at home, or in the car.
Yes, but dont necessarily have to cover that using health insurance.
> No one is invincible, and everyone, without exception,
> needs medical care at least a few times in their lives,
Some dont.
> and more as they get older.
Some dont see that either.
And they are obviously welcome to decide that if they end up with
a serious medical problem that they prefer to just pull the plug on
their life instead of having anything to do with the medical system too.
AZDuffman
> >Why does that mean you need insurance? I see a doctor maybe once
> >every two years. Why do I need anythong more than a total bare-bones
> >plan, if that?
>
> Anyone can unexpectedly come down with a catastrophic illness or get
> into an accident, at work, at home, or in the car. No one is
> invincible, and everyone, without exception, needs medical care at
> least a few times in their lives, and more as they get older.
Accidents at work and in the car are covered by liability insurance of
those at fault. They coudl also be covered by a minimalist
catasthropic-only plan, which will not make Obamacare's list of
"approved" plans. If your house is paid for just get a Home Equity
Line of Credit and keep it in reserve. Plenty of people don't need
health insurance. But now they go to jail if they don't buy it. And
liberals cry like little fairies about the Patriot Act curtailing
freedoms!
> >Just watch it happen. America has never been this upset with
> >government. 11% approval rating for Congress. Besides, there are
> >already several states planning to sue. Obama is on dope if he thinks
> >Americans will "learn to like this" plan.
>
> They have no grounds for a suit. It will get thrown out.
Sure they do. The individual mandate is likely unconstitutional. So
are all the special deals like the Cornhusker Kickback. Hopefully
there is an injunction to stop it from taking effect until it is
sorted out. And the only thing getting thrown out will be those with
a (D) beside their names in November.
> >If liberals were so much smarter than conservatives they would be able
> >to make it in the real world outside government and universities. I
> >meet few who can even argue a point for more than 30 seconds without
> >resorting to calling names like "racist, sexist, bigoted homophobe."
>
> I know calling you for what you are hurts, but you've proven what you
> think and why. You show your hatred in everything you say
Please show where I am showing hatred. Liberals are the ones full of
hate and rage. Please show one example.
AZDuffman
> AZDuffman wrote:
> >> Won't happen because people will start to see the benefits of health
> >> care reform and will see through the conservative lies and understand
> >> it really was a good thing all along. And no one is going to vote to
> >> repeal protections enjoyed by middle class Americans that they will
> >> gain from this legislation.
> > Just watch it happen.
>
> Bet it doesnt.
What are you, six years old?
> > America has never been this upset with government.
>
> Hardly surprising given your clowns just completely imploded the entire world financial system, again.
The democrats did implode it, but people are more angry about this.
> > 11% approval rating for Congress.
> > Besides, there are already several states planning to sue.
>
> They can sue all they like, they will lose, you watch.
>
> > Obama is on dope if he thinks Americans will "learn to like this" plan.
>
> Or maybe he has noticed that thats what happened in every single
> modern first and second world country thats made a significant change
> and happened in the US with medicare too.
What happened everywhere else is quality of care fell. USA is the
highest quality of care there is. WHich explains why high ranking
Canadian Government Officials come to the USA for the best care
despite how "great" care is alleged to be in Canada.
Rod Speed
>>>> Won't happen because people will start to see the benefits of
>>>> health care reform and will see through the conservative lies and
>>>> understand it really was a good thing all along. And no one is
>>>> going to vote to repeal protections enjoyed by middle class
>>>> Americans that they will gain from this legislation.
>>> Just watch it happen.
>> Bet it doesnt.
> What are you, six years old?
Older than you, thanks.
>>> America has never been this upset with government.
>> Hardly surprising given your clowns just completely imploded the
>> entire world financial system, again.
> The democrats did implode it,
More of your pathological lying.
> but people are more angry about this.
Only in your pathetic little pig ignorant fantasyland.
>>> 11% approval rating for Congress.
>>> Besides, there are already several states planning to sue.
>> They can sue all they like, they will lose, you watch.
>>> Obama is on dope if he thinks Americans will "learn to like this" plan.
>> Or maybe he has noticed that thats what happened in every
>> single modern first and second world country thats made a
>> significant change and happened in the US with medicare too.
> What happened everywhere else is quality of care fell.
More of your pathological lying.
> USA is the highest quality of care there is.
More of your pathological lying.
Have fun explaining why the US has the worst mortality and
infant mortality results in the the entire modern first world.
> WHich explains why high ranking Canadian Government Officials come to the
> USA for the best care despite how "great" care is alleged to be in Canada.
More of your pathological lying.
None4U
And nothin trumps the voting majority.
You do realize that you have alienated every man woman , child , old people
,retirees, disable people, working man, or woman , cat and dog, in America.
You have in one fell swoop committed the biggest thievery against the
American people since America was created.
And you did it against the biggest odds of all.
70 million voting Americans that loud and clearly stated Do not do this.
millions of times.
Yup, You should be proud of yourselves.
You have almost won this battle.
And single handedly gave us every day for the rest of our lives. Something
to think clearly about. Why you hateful America haters need to pay.
We will be thinking every day. And fucking you over every chance we get.
Starting in November.
Every time you see us . Thats what were thinking.
Why did my disabled brother lose his Social security disability. We paid for
alrady. For 30 million illegals.
When my kid asks. Why does grandma live in the attic? She lost her
medacade and medicare. And had to sell her little apartment to pay for her
dogfood breakfast.
Dad, how come I cant go to college. The gubment stole your college fund from
my bank account.
But why dad. Illegals need healthcare more then your colege education.
You lying, cheating, thieving, steal from my kids future, pieces of shits
need to be puinished for the rest of our lives.
While we still have a breath to take.
Befor the gubment decides were to old and worthless to be kept alive anymore
And denies us cancer surgery.
or heart surgery.
While Julio, the crack head dealing illegal
Gets fixed up evey time he gets drunk and gets in a bar fight.
Or cuts himself breaking my window out to steal some more shit.
You are all gonna pay.
Patriot Games
wrote:
>How's that "Waterloo" thing workin' out for ya?
Be patient, Commie...
November will be here soon...
Michael Coburn
True...
> You do realize that you have alienated every man woman , child , old
> people ,retirees, disable people, working man, or woman , cat and dog,
> in America.
That will be seen in November, won't it.
> You have in one fell swoop committed the biggest thievery against the
> American people since America was created.
The whining and lying never stops. But it is as I have said and will
repeat. The American people have the Democrats right where they want
em. They have until November to promote the positive aspects of the new
law by reconciling it to be more middle class friendly or they will be
removed from office.
> And you did it against the biggest odds of all.
>
> 70 million voting Americans that loud and clearly stated Do not do this.
> millions of times.
I'm not sire of how many people were mislead by Republican filth, but the
passage of the bill was a victory for our "republican form of government".
http://www.greatervoice.org/econ/quotes/American_Republic.php ------
(This republicanism of the 1780's was not in principle different from
what in Britain and America by mid-nineteenth century was generally
called representative democracy. The founders would not have been opposed
to modern connotations of the word "democracy", nor would they have used
the word "republic" to mark out a distinction from those connotations. In
scorning "democracy", eighteenth-century theorists had in mind
Aristotle's picture of a heedless, emotional, manipulated populace that
would still be denigrated by most modern democratic theorists.)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yup, You should be proud of yourselves.
>
> You have almost won this battle.
Yes. We are very close. We will see the fruits of this effort right
away in the legal actions brought against insurance companies that try to
drop people due to technicalities. We will see a change in the coverage
of children with preexisting conditions and college students. And we
will see Republicans battling these changes all the way.
> And single handedly gave us every day for the rest of our lives.
> Something to think clearly about. Why you hateful America haters need to
> pay.
Oh yes... The "haters". It be mirror time, chump.
> We will be thinking every day. And fucking you over every chance we get.
>
> Starting in November.
>
> Every time you see us . Thats what were thinking.
>
> Why did my disabled brother lose his Social security disability. We paid
> for alrady. For 30 million illegals.
>
> When my kid asks. Why does grandma live in the attic? She lost her
> medacade and medicare. And had to sell her little apartment to pay for
> her dogfood breakfast.
>
> Dad, how come I cant go to college. The gubment stole your college fund
> from my bank account.
>
> But why dad. Illegals need healthcare more then your colege education.
>
> You lying, cheating, thieving, steal from my kids future, pieces of
> shits need to be puinished for the rest of our lives.
>
> While we still have a breath to take.
>
> Befor the gubment decides were to old and worthless to be kept alive
> anymore
>
> And denies us cancer surgery.
>
> or heart surgery.
>
> While Julio, the crack head dealing illegal
>
> Gets fixed up evey time he gets drunk and gets in a bar fight.
>
> Or cuts himself breaking my window out to steal some more shit.
>
> You are all gonna pay.
The typical list of Tea Party pig shit. Just throw it all and see what
sprouts legs.
AZDuffman
So lets get this straight? They passed a bill despite bi-partisan
oppostiton yet it still needs to be "fixed?"
You lefties never cease to amaze me. But the only question is will
the number of GOP pickups in the house be closer to 50 or 100. Either
way after that Obama is a lame duck since he can't do anything but
Rahm legislation thru a friendly legislature, and it even took him
over a year for that. Perhaps he should be getting coffee like Bill
Clinton suggested would be his role a few years back?
Michael Coburn
> On Mar 23, 11:10 am, Michael Coburn <mik...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> [quoted text muted]
>
> So lets get this straight? They passed a bill despite bi-partisan
> oppostiton yet it still needs to be "fixed?"
Actually, they passed a bill that had opposition only from Republicans.
The Vote count on passage in the Senate was 58 Democrats and 2
independents for HCR and 40 Republicans against. But in achieving this
monumental threshold of 60 votes the bill was damaged. So we will now
"reconcile" much of that damage.
> You lefties never cease to amaze me. But the only question is will the
> number of GOP pickups in the house be closer to 50 or 100. Either way
> after that Obama is a lame duck since he can't do anything but Rahm
> legislation thru a friendly legislature, and it even took him over a
> year for that. Perhaps he should be getting coffee like Bill Clinton
> suggested would be his role a few years back?
We will see what we will see. The American people have yet to recognize
the actual benefits of the bill. That will change very dramatically
between now and November. What is going to be interesting is the way in
which the Democrats will offer to repair the actual problems and the way
the Republicans will buck them at every turn, still playing that
"Waterloo" stupidity to the hilt. There is enough near term realization
of "good" in the bill to turn the public fervor in the opposite
direction. I am dead certain that we will see a Public Option add on to
this bill. And we may see the "mandates" dropped in the same legislation.
In America, the fat lady never sings.
AZDuffman
> On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 08:15:35 -0700, AZDuffman wrote:
> > On Mar 23, 11:10 am, Michael Coburn <mik...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> [quoted text muted]
>
> > So lets get this straight? They passed a bill despite bi-partisan
> > oppostiton yet it still needs to be "fixed?"
>
> Actually, they passed a bill that had opposition only from Republicans.
> The Vote count on passage in the Senate was 58 Democrats and 2
> independents for HCR and 40 Republicans against. But in achieving this
> monumental threshold of 60 votes the bill was damaged. So we will now
> "reconcile" much of that damage.
The way I see it 34 democrats voted against it on Sunday, or 15% of
all House Democrats. That is bi-partisan opposition by any measure.
As to the "monumental threshold," well, if you hold negotiations only
within your own party, don't expect the other side to go along with
it. If the bill was somehow "damaged" and needed "reconciled" the
CONSTITUTIONAL way to do so is in the House-Senate conference that
follows passage in both Hosues of Congress.
But Obama and the Democrats weren't bothered with the UNconstitutional
"individual mandate" nor the UNconstitutional special deals for some
states but not others why would they bother?
> > You lefties never cease to amaze me. But the only question is will the
> > number of GOP pickups in the house be closer to 50 or 100. Either way
> > after that Obama is a lame duck since he can't do anything but Rahm
> > legislation thru a friendly legislature, and it even took him over a
> > year for that. Perhaps he should be getting coffee like Bill Clinton
> > suggested would be his role a few years back?
>
> We will see what we will see. The American people have yet to recognize
> the actual benefits of the bill. That will change very dramatically
> between now and November. What is going to be interesting is the way in
> which the Democrats will offer to repair the actual problems and the way
> the Republicans will buck them at every turn, still playing that
> "Waterloo" stupidity to the hilt. There is enough near term realization
> of "good" in the bill to turn the public fervor in the opposite
> direction. I am dead certain that we will see a Public Option add on to
> this bill. And we may see the "mandates" dropped in the same legislation.
There are states filing lawsuits as we speak. The Tea Party Movement
will only be more energized. Far more people hate this bill than like
it. It will get even worse as their premiums go up with no additional
benefit. I'm sure failures in life like yourself like it because you
preceive it as "free health care." But despite Obama's best efforts,
more people still pull the cart than ride in it in the USA. The so-
called "public option" is DOA in the Senate.
Waterloo, get ready for Obama's arrival by November.
Rod Speed
Nope, because the only real alternative has just completely
imploded the entire world financial system, AGAIN.
The voters wont be forgetting that in a hurry.
>> And you did it against the biggest odds of all.
>> 70 million voting Americans that loud and clearly
>> stated Do not do this. millions of times.
> I'm not sire of how many people were mislead by Republican filth, but the
> passage of the bill was a victory for our "republican form of government".
> http://www.greatervoice.org/econ/quotes/American_Republic.php ------
> (This republicanism of the 1780's was not in principle different from
> what in Britain and America by mid-nineteenth century was generally
> called representative democracy. The founders would not have been
> opposed to modern connotations of the word "democracy", nor would
> they have used the word "republic" to mark out a distinction from those
> connotations. In scorning "democracy", eighteenth-century theorists had
> in mind Aristotle's picture of a heedless, emotional, manipulated populace
> that would still be denigrated by most modern democratic theorists.)
Who cares if they are all spinning in their graves ? The world's moved on, just like it always does.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Starting in November.
Wota stunning line in rational argument you have there, fart.
AZDuffman
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Who is taking, is someone talking?
Rod Speed
> On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 08:15:35 -0700, AZDuffman wrote:
>
>> On Mar 23, 11:10 am, Michael Coburn <mik...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> [quoted text muted]
>>
>> So lets get this straight? They passed a bill despite bi-partisan
>> oppostiton yet it still needs to be "fixed?"
>
> Actually, they passed a bill that had opposition only from
> Republicans. The Vote count on passage in the Senate was 58 Democrats
> and 2 independents for HCR and 40 Republicans against. But in
> achieving this monumental threshold of 60 votes the bill was damaged.
> So we will now "reconcile" much of that damage.
>
>> You lefties never cease to amaze me. But the only question is will
>> the number of GOP pickups in the house be closer to 50 or 100.
>> Either way after that Obama is a lame duck since he can't do
>> anything but Rahm legislation thru a friendly legislature, and it
>> even took him over a year for that. Perhaps he should be getting
>> coffee like Bill Clinton suggested would be his role a few years
>> back?
>
> We will see what we will see. The American people have yet to
> recognize the actual benefits of the bill. That will change very
> dramatically between now and November.
Bet it doesnt. Given the long lead time on most of the measures,
hardly any of them will be personally affected by then and thats
the only thing that ever changes any vote 'dramatically'
> What is going to be interesting is the way in which the Democrats will
> offer to repair the actual problems and the way the Republicans will
> buck them at every turn, still playing that "Waterloo" stupidity to the hilt.
> There is enough near term realization of "good" in the
> bill to turn the public fervor in the opposite direction.
Not in such a short time with hardly any of them being personally affected in that time.
> I am dead certain that we will see a Public Option add on to this bill.
Maybe. On the other hand, we might see what has happened in every
other modern first world democracy, a significant electoral punishing
of the clowns that allowed the complete implosion of the entire world
financial system, bleed away slowly over time, so it will become
harder for the Dems to get that sort of thing thru the Congress.
> And we may see the "mandates" dropped in the same legislation.
Bet that doesnt happen either.
What might well happen is that the most recent ruling that allows
the corps to spend anything they like on political advertising etc
might have a significant effect on who gets elected to Congress.
And in a way that will make it harder to get the stuff you want to
see thru Congress just because those who do get elected might
well fear what corporate money can do to their electoral prospects.
> In America, the fat lady never sings.
Bullshit. It did get medicare and social security, regardless of the mindless howling about 'socialism' and 'freedom'
Rod Speed
> Who is taking, is someone talking?
You never ever could bullshit and lie your way out of a wet paper bag.
AZDuffman
You really need to come up with something new.
Rod Speed
> You really need to come up with something new.
Pathological liars like you dont qualify.
Beam Me Up Scotty
Fish
> On Mar 22, 9:44 am, Michael Coburn <mik...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > The long nightmare of attempting to make peace with Republicans has
> > finally ended. On Sunday, March 21, 2010 we broke all ties with the
> > lunatic fringe that was and still is, the Republican party.
>
> right and have the right of ways. they are united for common chorus.
> do you see a single rep member votes for the bill, if they do they are
> no longer in KKK party.
>
>
correction - there is a single GOP house member who voted for the
bill