element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash
a_plu...@hotmail.com
burn mostly tree bark, that it leaves a volume of ash that is about 5
times greater than wood. I have asked this question before with no
answer. What is the element or chemical compound in tree bark versus
tree wood that explains this difference. Is it potassium that the
potassium compounds are metabolized into the bark.
Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies
brian a m stuckless
> I have noticed that when I burn wood it leaves little ash but
> when I burn mostly tree bark, that it leaves a volume of ash
$$ Your bark is 5 times worse than your bite.
$$ Your bark burns about 5 times less efficiently than your wood.
$$ Perhaps this helps. ```Brian A M Stuckless, Ph.T (Tivity).
> -=- I have asked this question before with no
> answer. What is the element or chemical compound in tree bark
> versus tree wood that explains this difference. Is it potassium
> that the potassium compounds are metabolized into the bark.
>
> Archimedes Plutonium > www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
> whole entire Universe is just one big atom
> where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies
Re: element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash.
Cereus-validus-...........
wildwood weed, Archie!!!!
Why don't you do an elemental astrological analysis of it using your
continuum transfunctioner?
Most likely it will be your very own element: halfassium!!
<a_plu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141584038.0...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Mark Kness
ought to burn with no ash, going to CO2, H2O. The bark probably has
lots and lots of compounds in it, I don't know what myself, but
anything with Na, K, Ca, Mg would presumably leave ash.
P.S. For some of those who needed to make wisecracks about a
more-or-less reasonable question, you are a much worse contributor to
dreck on this board than Archimedes. I'll take this question over
babbling about RELATiViTY that doesn't have anything to do with
chemistry anyways, any day of the year.
Cereus-validus-...........
unmentioned. If you want to be one of Archie's fool sycophants, that's your
problem.
Obviously, tree bark may be contaminated by soil and dirt particles from the
environment. There is no hidden mystical meaning behind it.
"Mark Kness" <mkne...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1141608098.2...@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Dan
Do you see many pure celulose trees?
Ideally, you should get CO2 and H2O, but nothing's ideal. You don't get
enough Oxygen to get such efficient burning, so, you get a lot of
charcoal (near pure carbon), as well as lots of other stuff like
nitrates and salts that are absorbed from the soil.
We know this because ash used to be the main source of nitrates for the
production of gunpowder way back when (and may still be, but I doubt
it). Ash is not a known mixture, it just means what's left after
burning.
You could look at some analytical techniques ot detect levels of such
nitrates and salts, which should be fairly straight forward, but I'm a
chemoinformatician not an analyst....
Happy Ashin'
Dan.
P.S. Without your Post Script I doubt you would have received such a
spurious answer to a very simple (no offence) question.
rac...@hotmail.com
therefore the water richest. The heartwood is heaviliy liginified -
full of resins and such. Heartwood burns hotter, and may send the same
amount of ash, flying up the chimney. A more scientific approach would
be an elemental analysis of the wood without an uncontrolled burn.
Farooq W
Dan wrote:
> Soil and Dirt particles?! Is that a scientific analysis? Contaminated?
> Do you see many pure celulose trees?
>
> Ideally, you should get CO2 and H2O, but nothing's ideal. You don't get
> enough Oxygen to get such efficient burning, so, you get a lot of
> charcoal (near pure carbon), as well as lots of other stuff like
> nitrates and salts that are absorbed from the soil.
>
> We know this because ash used to be the main source of nitrates
I strongly doubt that. Nitrates would not survive high temperatues (of
burning wood) especially in the presence of organic matter. Wood ash is
indeed rich in what we call as
pot-ash and hence the name potassium.
An analysis of Oak/Beech/Bracken tree ash was published Archaeometry
Volume 47 Page 781 - November 2005. The results for Oak tree ash:
%
SiO2- 14.62
TiO2 - 0.06
Al2O3 - 0.76
Fe2O3- 0.65
MnO 6.35
MgO 6.87
CaO 31.06
Na2O 0.40
K2O 18.80
P2O5 12.87
SO3 1.09
Co 15.5
Ni 75.7
Cu 178.5
Zn 2112.4
Ge 3.0
As 1.9
Se 1.3
Br 3.4
Rb 107.9
Sr 533.6
Y 3.0
Zr 41.6
Nb 1.6
Mo 6.5
Ag 1.0
Sn 7.5
Ba 3560.3
Pb 46.1
Th 0.4
U 4.7
hanson
That is some kind of super Oak you've burnt there... along
with some high class Ph.D. chemist doing his over-unit analysis:
> %
> Sr 533.6
> Ba 3560.3
> Pb 46.1
> Zn 2112.4
Eating this ash ought to be good for prostate problems (Zn)
... and great for/as an X-ray contrast medium (Ba & Sr).
The Lead (Pb) might be a problem, however there appears
to be sufficient P2O5 and SiO2 present to from very, very
insoluble Pb-products. Still the enviro shits will declare this
to a be a very toxic and hazardous substance... while levying
and assessing you with permit charges, user fees and enviro
surtaxes... even if you never make or sell any of this miraculous
ash... and then the tree huggers will sue you for having burnt
such a valuable and endangered plant which has sucked up and
decontaminated so more than its possible share of toxic
substances from the environment thru'/via its bio remediation....
ahahahahaha.. Thanks for the laughs, Farooq.... ahahahaha.....
ahahaha... ahahahanson
>
"Farooq W" <faro...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141653875.2...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>
> Dan wrote:
>> Soil and Dirt particles?! Is that a scientific analysis? Contaminated?
>> Do you see many pure celulose trees?
>>
>> Ideally, you should get CO2 and H2O, but nothing's ideal. You don't get
>> enough Oxygen to get such efficient burning, so, you get a lot of
>> charcoal (near pure carbon), as well as lots of other stuff like
>> nitrates and salts that are absorbed from the soil.
>> nitrates and salts, which should be fairly straight forward, but I'm a
>> chemoinformatician not an analyst....
>> Dan.
>>
[Farooq]
b...@cs.toronto.no-uce.edu
Farooq W <faro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Dan wrote:
>> Soil and Dirt particles?! Is that a scientific analysis? Contaminated?
>> Do you see many pure celulose trees?
>>
>> Ideally, you should get CO2 and H2O, but nothing's ideal. You don't get
>> enough Oxygen to get such efficient burning, so, you get a lot of
>> charcoal (near pure carbon), as well as lots of other stuff like
>> nitrates and salts that are absorbed from the soil.
>>
>> We know this because ash used to be the main source of nitrates
>
>I strongly doubt that. Nitrates would not survive high temperatues (of
>burning wood) especially in the presence of organic matter. Wood ash is
>indeed rich in what we call as
>pot-ash and hence the name potassium.
Yeah. The potassium nitrate for gunpowder came from under old
manure piles. Potash was used for making soap, historically, since
wood ash was more accessible than lye before industrial chmistry.
>An analysis of Oak/Beech/Bracken tree ash was published Archaeometry
>Volume 47 Page 781 - November 2005. The results for Oak tree ash:
> %
>SiO2- 14.62
>TiO2 - 0.06
>Al2O3 - 0.76
>Fe2O3- 0.65
>MnO 6.35
>MgO 6.87
>CaO 31.06
>Na2O 0.40
>K2O 18.80
>P2O5 12.87
>SO3 1.09
This much is reasonable -- I'd expect high K and Ca, but the P and Si
are a bit of a surprise. I suspect the Si came from the bracken, since
some ferns (and notably the non-fern horsetail (Equisetum) concentrate
silica, or perhaps it's from dirt. Maybe that explains the high P, too.
While wood ash is an excellent source of K, it usually regarded as only
a moderate source of P, for fertilizer. Non-woody material is higher
in P, Mg and other elements important to plant nutrition.
Not sure what Archaeometry is, but if it's analysis of ancient materials,
the high silica may be due to infiltration from the soil, an early stage
in fossilization. If these numbers come from the residue from an ancient
forest fire, it would explain the higher levels of plant nutrients, since
a lot of live green material would have been included.
>Co 15.5
>Ni 75.7
>Cu 178.5
>Zn 2112.4
>Ge 3.0
>As 1.9
>Se 1.3
>Br 3.4
>Rb 107.9
>Sr 533.6
>Y 3.0
>Zr 41.6
>Nb 1.6
>Mo 6.5
>Ag 1.0
>Sn 7.5
>Ba 3560.3
>Pb 46.1
>Th 0.4
>U 4.7
I suspect these are in ppt or more likely ppm, rather than %, or we'd be
giving up mining in favor of forestry. The amounts of these trace
elements probably vary a lot with the composition of the soil in which
the plants grew.
As for Mr. Plutonium, I can say from personal experience that yes, bark
gives more ash than wood, because it contains more minerals than wood.
Apparently trees don't pull as much good stuff out of bark cells as they
die as they do from the cells that become wood. Note also that hardwood
generally produces far more ash than softwood, at least for the North
American temperate species I'm familiar with. "Tree" is a descriptive
term, unrelated to phylogeny. Trees have evolved many times from different
lineages, and conifer trees are unrelated to angiosperm trees.
Farooq W
b...@cs.toronto.no-uce.edu wrote:
> In article <1141653875.2...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
> Farooq W <faro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >Dan wrote:
> >> Soil and Dirt particles?! Is that a scientific analysis? Contaminated?
> >> Do you see many pure celulose trees?
> >>
> >> Ideally, you should get CO2 and H2O, but nothing's ideal. You don't get
> >> enough Oxygen to get such efficient burning, so, you get a lot of
> >> charcoal (near pure carbon), as well as lots of other stuff like
> >> nitrates and salts that are absorbed from the soil.
> >>
> >> We know this because ash used to be the main source of nitrates
> >
> >I strongly doubt that. Nitrates would not survive high temperatues (of
> >burning wood) especially in the presence of organic matter. Wood ash is
> >indeed rich in what we call as
> >pot-ash and hence the name potassium.
>
> Yeah. The potassium nitrate for gunpowder came from under old
> manure piles. Potash was used for making soap, historically, since
> wood ash was more accessible than lye before industrial chmistry.
>
> >An analysis of Oak/Beech/Bracken tree ash was published Archaeometry
> >Volume 47 Page 781 - November 2005. The results for Oak tree ash:
This article is available online (free) at
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1475-4754.2005.00232.x
My fault... Its ppm for entries below SO3. More surprising the uptake
of heavy metals especially Th and U by the plants...Barium is
abnormally high or the soil on which that tree grew was rich in barium
ores!
mjho...@brookes.ac.uk
As it happens, I have done quite a lot of analyses for the various bits
of trees (particularly conifers). 14% silica is very high indeed for
plant material (though not impossible- rice husks can be 20%). I have
analysed bracken in the past for silica, and it would not make 14%.
Equisetum just might, but you would need this to be most of the sample!
I would think contamination or impregnation were both possible
explanations.
At least in conifers the bark and wood are generally lower in ash that
the needles. In some species silica can be quite high in needles (e.g.
spruce at 2% or more), and that can make up a substantial amount of the
ash.
Best Wishes,
Martin Hodson
a_plutonium
I am surprized at all of the uranium, thorium and lead. A likely
inference that we intake uranium, thorium and lead in various plant
tissue we eat. I did not see mercury on that list and since coal power
stations are notorious for emitting mercury into the air, I wonder how
much mercury is in bark of trees.
But I know some tree species evolved into a fire resistant bark in order
to live in fire prone regions, so I wonder what chemical it is that
gives them the best fire resistance. Is it potassium and salts?
hanson
in message news:440D32EB...@dtgnet.com...
>
[Archmed]
> I did not see mercury on that list and since coal power stations are notorious for
> emitting mercury into the air, I wonder how much mercury is in bark of trees.
>
Not too many plants do store Hg till they wilt. HgMe2 is
volatile. The main acquisition of Hg into coal comes during
the wet bog phase via sequestering/chelating of Hg by humic
acids from mineral leeching over LONG periods of time.
These organic Hg compounds then become/evolve into
molecules of increasingly more hydrophobic nature as the
coalfaction process continues... Hence they/Hg ends up
highly enriched in anthracite.
>
[Archmed]
> But I know some tree species evolved into a fire resistant bark in order to live
> in fire prone regions, so I wonder what chemical it is that gives them the best
> fire resistance. Is it potassium and salts? Archimedes Plutonium
>
It's not so much the chemicals as it's the structure of the bark
that gives the fire resistance. .. And as far as the chemicals,
apparently everybody except you knows that, it is these
Group V elememts here that do the main assistance in breaking
ignition sequence chain events on the molecular level....
> Farooq W
>>>P2O5 12.87
>>>As2O5 1.9
a_plu...@hotmail.com
[hanson]
Not too many plants do store Hg till they wilt. HgMe2 is
volatile. The main acquisition of Hg into coal comes during
the wet bog phase via sequestering/chelating of Hg by humic
acids from mineral leeching over LONG periods of time.
These organic Hg compounds then become/evolve into
molecules of increasingly more hydrophobic nature as the
coalfaction process continues... Hence they/Hg ends up
highly enriched in anthracite.
[Archmed]
> But I know some tree species evolved into a fire resistant bark in order to live
> in fire prone regions, so I wonder what chemical it is that gives them the best
> fire resistance. Is it potassium and salts? Archimedes Plutonium
[hanson]
It's not so much the chemicals as it's the structure of the bark
that gives the fire resistance. .. And as far as the chemicals,
apparently everybody except you knows that, it is these
Group V elememts here that do the main assistance in breaking
ignition sequence chain events on the molecular level....
A.P. writes:
Thanks for the info and will keep in my scrap file.
Say, you would not happen to live in the Midwest, if my memory is
correct you are from Indiana. The reason I ask is that I need Rock Elm
seed, Ulmus racemosa (thomasii). Can you get some Rock Elm seed and
mail it to me. I will be eternally grateful.
hanson
news:1141763037.1...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> [hanson]
> Not too many plants do store Hg till they wilt. HgMe2 is
> volatile. The main acquisition of Hg into coal comes during
> the wet bog phase via sequestering/chelating of Hg by humic
> acids from mineral leeching over LONG periods of time.
> These organic Hg compounds then become/evolve into
> molecules of increasingly more hydrophobic nature as the
> coalfaction process continues... Hence they/Hg ends up
> highly enriched in anthracite.
>
> [Archmed]
>> But I know some tree species evolved into a fire resistant bark
>> in order to live in fire prone regions, so I wonder what chemical
>
> [hanson]
> It's not so much the chemicals as it's the structure of the bark
> that gives the fire resistance. .. And as far as the chemicals,
> apparently everybody except you knows that, it is these
> Group V elememts here that do the main assistance in breaking
> ignition sequence chain events on the molecular level....
>
[A.P. writes]
> Thanks for the info and will keep in my scrap file.
> Say, you would not happen to live in the Midwest, if my memory is
> correct you are from Indiana. The reason I ask is that I need Rock Elm
> seed, Ulmus racemosa (thomasii). Can you get some Rock Elm seed
> and mail it to me. I will be eternally grateful.
> Archimedes Plutonium
> www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
> whole entire Universe is just one big atom
> where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies
>
Sorry, Archie, I am nowhere near from there. It's been 30 years
since I have seen a Rock Elm. -- Here, either in Raratonga or in
Kauai-Princeville there are only Palm trees and other tropical jungle
brush. But I am sure that you can get your Rock Elm seed from
http://seedrack.com/indexw.html or http://www.garden-adventures.com/
or even via the USDA, or perhaps some kind poster, who lives
where your object of desire grows, will oblige. BTW, should RE
not be a native species in your knack of the woods, consult with the
enviro agencies first. There may be laws against introducing non
native plants.
Good Luck,
hanson
donald haarmann
|
| We know this because ash used to be the main source of nitrates for the
| production of gunpowder way back when (and may still be, but I doubt
| it). Ash is not a known mixture, it just means what's left after
| burning.
-----------
Sorry. Wood ash was never the source of nitrate, it was, however, the source of
potash (potassium carbonate) mixed with the cave (for instance) nitrate (calcium),
to convert it into usable potassium nitrate, calcium nitrate being hygroscopic.
--
donald j haarmann
-----------------------------
As if ordained by Fate, Nitre, that admirable salt,
hath made as much noise in Philosophy as in
War, all the world being filled with its thunder.
John Mayow
Ttractalus Quinque Medico-Physici, 1674
donald haarmann
|
| My fault... Its ppm for entries below SO3. More surprising the uptake
| of heavy metals especially Th and U by the plants...Barium is
| abnormally high or the soil on which that tree grew was rich in barium
| ores!
|
-------------
The up take of uranium by plants is well know. See for example :-
Botanical Prospecting for Uranium on La Ventana Mesa, Sandoval County
New Mexico. US Geological Survey Bulletin 1009-M. 1956.
Some plants uptake serious amounts of selenium.
Description of Indicator Plants and Methods of Botanical Prospecting for
Uranium Deposits on the Colorado Plateau. US Geological Survey Bulletin
1030-M. 1957.
--
donald j haarmann
-----------------------
Science is a collection
of successful recipes.
Paul Valéry
French poet-essayist
(1871-1945)
Bob
<donald-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>"Farooq W" <faro...@gmail.com
>
>|
>| My fault... Its ppm for entries below SO3. More surprising the uptake
>| of heavy metals especially Th and U by the plants...Barium is
>| abnormally high or the soil on which that tree grew was rich in barium
>| ores!
>|
>
>-------------
>The up take of uranium by plants is well know. See for example :-
>
>Botanical Prospecting for Uranium on La Ventana Mesa, Sandoval County
>New Mexico. US Geological Survey Bulletin 1009-M. 1956.
>
>Some plants uptake serious amounts of selenium.
A Berkeley group is developing the use of a plant for Se
decontamination of soil. It is in field testing. (I could probably
find a ref if someone wants it.)
Then there are the Ni accumulators, which have several percent Ni in
their sap, nicely chelated (citrate, I think).
bob
hanson
"Bob" <bbx...@excite.XXXX.com> wrote in message
news:n6661252qh95a7v4k...@4ax.com...
>>"Farooq W" <faro...@gmail.com
>>| More surprising the uptake of heavy metals especially
>>| Th and U by the plants...Barium is abnormally high or the
>>| soil on which that tree grew was rich in barium ores!
>>
> On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 02:27:31 GMT, "donald haarmann"
> <donald-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>The up take of uranium by plants is well know. See for example :-
>>Botanical Prospecting for Uranium on La Ventana Mesa, Sandoval
>>County New Mexico. US Geological Survey Bulletin 1009-M. 1956.
>>Some plants uptake serious amounts of selenium.
>
[Bob]
> A Berkeley group is developing the use of a plant for Se
> decontamination of soil. It is in field testing. (I could probably
> find a ref if someone wants it.)
> Then there are the Ni accumulators, which have several percent Ni in
> their sap, nicely chelated (citrate, I think).
> bob
>
[hanson]
=1= I posted this into sci.geo.geology in hope to get some views
from the geos' camp about the popularity & effectiveness of BP.
=2= As what/which compound does Si get into solution from the
calcogen silicates, considering that SiO4-- is stable only at
pH >11 in aq?
=3= in what soluble or sol-gel form is Silicon taken up
and transported in/to the plant (at a pH range ~< 7)
=4= As what/which compound is Si stored in the plant?
=5= and what function does the Si have in the plants?
Michael Hearne
> "Dan" <d.co...@gmail.com
>
> |
> | We know this because ash used to be the main source of nitrates for the
> | production of gunpowder way back when (and may still be, but I doubt
> | it). Ash is not a known mixture, it just means what's left after
> | burning.
>
>
> -----------
> Sorry. Wood ash was never the source of nitrate, it was, however, the source of
> potash (potassium carbonate) mixed with the cave (for instance) nitrate (calcium),
> to convert it into usable potassium nitrate, calcium nitrate being hygroscopic.
>
>
>
Cave nitrate?
Does that mean that bat guano is a usable source for the nitrate needed
to make black powder? Or are you referring to stalactites/stalagmites?
(The mites go up and the tights come down).
Michael
Michael Hearne
> "Farooq W" <faro...@gmail.com
>
> |
> | My fault... Its ppm for entries below SO3. More surprising the uptake
> | of heavy metals especially Th and U by the plants...Barium is
> | abnormally high or the soil on which that tree grew was rich in barium
> | ores!
> |
>
> -------------
> The up take of uranium by plants is well know. See for example :-
>
> Botanical Prospecting for Uranium on La Ventana Mesa, Sandoval County
> New Mexico. US Geological Survey Bulletin 1009-M. 1956.
>
> Some plants uptake serious amounts of selenium.
>
> Description of Indicator Plants and Methods of Botanical Prospecting for
> Uranium Deposits on the Colorado Plateau. US Geological Survey Bulletin
> 1030-M. 1957.
>
Well that is truly interesting to me. Could I possibly compress one of
these high selenium content plants and use that substance electrically?
That is, could it be carbonized (such as charcoal) and then further
processed without special tools?
Re: The selenium rectifier was the first semi-conductor device ever
created, not including detector diodes. It was invented in 1933 by C.E.
Fitts, and was being built by Sylvania about 1935. If you remember
tubes, RCA had the monopoly from 1919 until 1941. Sylvania was a
competitor, but they built military stuff, and unlike the tubes built by
RCA, Sylvania's were encased in metal, rather than glass.
Please see: "Road to the Transistor"
http://www.jmargolin.com/history/trans.htm
Sylvania built a lot of heavy industrial and military components, and
the invention of the selenium rectifier was a way to eliminate a
(breakable) tube. They also produced the last tube built in the United
States, in 1977.
I like to think that if I suddenly found myself to be naked in the
wilderness, that I would have the potential to make anything at all that
we have now. Unfortunately, selenium is toxic, so the device would have
to be well encased.
Ah! How to make natural epoxy? More; how to draw wire from a stone?
Michael
Jo Schaper
I don't know the answer to your question, but I would look at
Equisetum-- aka scouring rushes. They have extremely high Si uptake. As
a primitive plant whose chlorosphyll is incorporated in the stems, the
Si, is used as a supporting structure.
Also, the Na, K, Ca group are also metals utilized by plants.
Edward Hennessey
"Jo Schaper" <joschape...@2socketdot.no5net> wrote in
message news:12194vr...@corp.supernews.com...
If someone is familiar with the Russian professional literature,
this is one
of its admirable specialties.
Regards,
Edward Hennessey
donald haarmann
---------
No. Bat caves are too dry.
For more than you ever wanted to know 'bout "vertebrate excretion"; see -
George Evelyn Hutchinson's
Survey of Contemporary Knowledge of Biogeochemistry
3. The Biogeochemistry of Vertebrate Excretion
Bulletin of the American Museum of Natural History
Volume 96 New York : 1950
554 pages!
------------
Native deposits of saltpeter (saltpetre – British) are well known as the white
efflorescence on walls (saltpetre rot) which can be either — potassium nitrate;
sodium nitrate (Chile saltpeter); or calcium nitrate (Norwegian saltpeter). And soil
saltpeter. Needham states that the solonchak soils in Honan province yielded
more than 30,000 lbs. of saltpetre per acre p.a. (ca 1961). Other well known
deposits are [were] in the Tirhût district, Bengal, India. (From which comes
“Bengal Lance”) Egypt, Persia, Hungry (near Debreczin), Apulia, Kentucky,
Indiana (Wyandotte cave from which salt peter for the War of 1812 was obtained,
the cave continued in operation until 1817), &c., “none of which [are] of more
than local importance now” [1913].
The largest deposits are those found in the Chilean cliché deposits. The Chilean
nitrate deposits are of a strange nature. Following several unexplained
explosions in the gunpowder works at Stragare and Obilicévo (ca 1894).
Chemical analysis of the nitrate found that it contained as much as 2.5%
perchlorate!
Suffering from more information than time. I will supply the following bibliography
for those suffering from a lack of details:-
Burton Faust, Saltpetre Mining in Mammoth Cave, KY, The Filson Club, 1967.
Angelo I George, The Saltpeter Empires of Great Saltpetre Cave and Mammoth
Cave. H.M.I. Press 2001.
US Geological Survey Bulletins:-
523 Hoyt S Gale, [US] Nitrate Deposits.
620B Nitrate Deposits in Southern Idaho and Eastern Oretgon. 1915
724 LF Noble & et al, Nitrate Deposits in the Amargosa Region Southeastern
California. 1922
820 LF Noble, Nitrate Deposits in the Southeastern California: With notes on
Deposits in Southeastern Arizona and Southwestern New Mexico. 1931.
838 GR Mansfield & L Boardman, Nitrate Deposits of the United States. 1932.
AW Allen, The Recovery of Nitrate from Chilean Caliche. Charles Griffin & Co.
London 1921.
Joseph Needham, Science and Civilisation in China. Part 7: Military Technology;
The Gunpowder Epic. Cambridge University Press 1986.
C Haeussermann, The Occurrence of Perchlorate in Saltpetre. Cemiker Zeitung
1894 (18):1206-1207.
V Panastovic, Elimination of Potassium Perchlorate from Saltpetre. Chemiker
Zeitung 1894 (18):1567.
George E Ericksen, The Chilean Nitrate Deposits. American Scientist July-
August 1983 366-374.
Saltpetre, Nitrate of Potassa. In: R Wagner, A Handbook of Chemical
Technology. D Appleton & Co. 1872 (Reprinted by Lindsay Publications)
Potassium nitrate (Saltpetre, nitre). In: Sir Edward Thorpe, A Dictionary of
Applied Chemistry Volume 4 pg. 363-367. Longman’s Green, London. 1913.
Potash, Nitrate of. In: R Hunt, Ure's Dictionary of Arts, Manufactures, and Mines.
Volume 3, pg 594-597. Longman's Green, London. 1878.
VIIth International Congress of Applied Chemistry by it Explosive Section —
Under the Auspices of. The Rise and Progress of the British Explosives Industry.
London : Whittaker and Co. 1909.
-------------------
digesteth, fermenteth, and ripeneth
The old method of obtaining saltpetre was to collect vegetable and animal refuse
containing nitrogen, the sweepings of slaughter- houses, weeds, etc., into heaps
and to mix this with limestone, old mortar, earth and ashes. These heaps were
sheltered from the rain, and kept moist from time to time with runnings from
stables and other urine.
As late as in the reign of James I (1624), we find in an indenture between the
King and Thomas Warricke, Peter Sparke, Michael Townshend and John Fells,
the statement that " for making of the saltpetre which hath been formerly and
now is made it has been found a matter of mere necessity to dig houses, cellars,
vaults, stables, dovehouses and such like places, wherewith divers of his
Majesty's subjects have found themselves grieved. " We are also informed that
the conveyance of the liquors, vessels, tubs, ashes, etc, from place to place in
carts had been a frequent source of nuisance and litigation.
The above persons purporting to have invented a new process for making
saltpetre undertake to make it " as good and perfect as any hath formerly been,
and shall be vented at cheaper and easier rates than formerly his Majesty or his
loving subjects have paid for-the same, which said saltpetre as His Majesty is
informed is to be or may be made of an artificial mixture or composition of chalk,
all sorts of limestone and lime, marl, divers minerals, and other nitrous mines
and other kind of ordinary earth, street dirt, or rubbish, stable dung, emptying of
vaults, the excrements of all living creatures, their bodies putrified, all vegetables
putrified or rotted, or the ashes, of them, and these or any of these mixed
together in proportion as they may be most conveniently had, and shall be found
most useful in such places where the said works shall be thought fit to be
erected, which said artificial mixture or composition of any or all the foresaid
ingredients is often times moistened with urine of men and beasts, petre, or
nitrous wells, and springs, and all other concrete juices and blood of all sorts as
can be gotten, and shall be fit and convenient for it, and divers times turned and
removed, by which means the mixture in time digesteth, fermenteth, and
ripeneth, from whence there is engendered the seed or mine of saltpetre which
afterwards is to be extracted with common water, urine, the water of petre or
nitrous wells, and springs, and then either breathed away in the sun or air, or
stoved with gentle heat or boiled with a stronger fire with his proper additament
of ashes, lime, and such like for separating the common salt and other mixtures
naturally growing in the liquor and afterwards refined into perfect saltpetre. "
The King then granted the patentees licence to exercise their invention for a term
of twenty-one years and to set up houses for preparing the artificial earth, etc.
On 26th December of the same year " was issued a proclamation, commanding
that no dovehouses or cellars be paved, except that part of the cellars where the
wine and beer is laid, in order that the growth of saltpetre might not be
obstructed." (Patent Roll, 22 James I, part 4, No. 9 dorso.)
---------------
1630, 14th February. Sir Francis Seymour to Secretary Coke. The saltpetre men
care not in whose houses they dig, threatening men that by their commission
they may dig in any man's house, in any room, and at any time, which will prove
a great grievance to the country. In the town where the writer lives they have
digged up some malting rooms, and threaten to dig more. They dig up the
entries and halls of divers men. If any oppose them they break up men's houses
and dig by force. They make men carry their saltpetre at a groat a mile, and take
their carriages in sowing time and harvest, with many other oppressions. Hopes
that these men may not be allowed to strain their commission. The saltpetre
man's name for Wilts is Hellyer. (S. P. Dom. Charles 1, vol. clxi, No. i.)
1630, 20th February. Petition of Hugh Grove, Deputy for making saltpetre to the
Lords of the Admiralty. Complains of Thomas Stallam and others of Thetford for
refusing to carry saltpetre liquors. Prays that they may be sent for by warrant. (S.
P. Dom. Charles 1, vol. clxi,,No. 35)
1630, 6th March. Gabriel Dowse and others to the Lords of the Admiralty. The
complaints of wrongs committed by Stevens the saltpetre man are so great that
they had not been able to reduce them into method. Pray a respite of their
certificate for a fortnight or three weeks. (S. P. Dom. Charles 1, vol. clxii, No. 40'
1630, 23rd March. Thos. Bond to Nicholas. Understands Lords of the Admiralty
have referred the collection of the proofs against the saltpetre men to two
knights. . . . saltpetre men make their vaunts that they will get their Iiberty and
carry themselves in the country as formerly. . . . If the saltpetre men go down
without redress of wrongs it will despair into the heart of the country.... (S. P.
Dom. Charles vol. clxiii, No. 40)
1630 30th April. Sir William Russell, Sir John Wolsterholme, and Sir Kenelm
Digby to the Lords of the Admiralty. Report on consideration of the complaints
and examinations sent in against Mr. Hilliard and Mr. Stephens, saltpetre men
and their servants. According to the proofs there is no part of their commission
which they have not extremely abused. As in digging in all places without
distinction, as in parlours, bedchambers, threshing and malting floors yea, God's
own house they have not forborne; so they respect not times, digging in the
breeding time in dovehouses, and working sometimes a month together,
whereby the flights of doves are destroyed; and without respect to harvest time
in barns and in malting houses, when green malt is upon the floor; and
bedchambers, placing their tubs by the bedside of the old and sick, even of
women in childbed, and persons on their death-beds. They have undermined
walls, and seldom fill up the places they have digged. In taking up, cart they
observe no seasons, and charge more carts than are needful, discharging some
again for bribes, and overload the carts they employ. They do not pay the prices
for carriage required by the commission. They take up coals not only where they
a sold but from those that have fetched them 20 or 30 miles by land for their own
winter's provision. They recommend that the offenders should be punished, and
that the commission be taken in, and a new one made out, with restrictions
designed to put an end to the abuses complained of (S. P. Dom. Charles 11 vol.
clxv, No. 38.)
1630, 26th June. Petition of Nicholas Stephens, Deputy saltpetre men to the
Lords of the Admiralty. The Lords having directed Attorney General to proceed
against him in the especially in the charge of digging in the Norton, he begs them
to consider the declaration annexed, to withdraw the order for proceeding in the
Star Chamber.
Annexing the declaration above alluded to. At a time great want of saltpetre he
removed only some waste and unnecessary part of the soil of the church of
Chipping Norton, as with the concurrence of the parishioners and ministers he
had done in the churches of Coventry, Warwick, and Oxford. Other digging was
done in his absence by his servant, whom he cast into Oxford gaol, and made
satisfaction to the parishioners. (S. Dom. Charles I, vol. clx, No. 46.)
1630, July. Petition of Thomas Hilliard, one of the saltpetre men, on behalf of
himself and his servants to the Lords of the Admiralty. By commission dated April
28, 5 Charles I, they were authorized to work for petre in the houses of any of
His Majesty's subjects, and within privileged places. About January last,
petitioner's workmen endeavoured to dig in the pigeon house of Thomas Bond,
who disobeyed the commission, and complained against petitioner, and in
February last procured him and his workmen to be sent for by warrant. They
have ever since remained prisoners. Pray to be dismissed. (S. P. Dom. Charles
I, vol. clxxi, No. 79.)
1631, 16th March. Thomas Thornhill to the Lords of the Admiralty. He complains
of endeavours made to prevent the search for saltpetre, by laying soap ashes on
the earth, paving cellars with stone, or filling them with gravel. (S. P. Dom
Charles I, vol. clxxxvi, No. 102.)
1631, April. Requests of Stephen Barrett, John Vincent, Thomas Hilliard, and five
others, the Deputies of the Lords of the Admiralty for making saltpetre, to the
same Lords. It being the pleasure of the Lords to renew or alter the Commission
under which the Deputies act, they set forth certain provisions which they desire
to have inserted in the new Commission for their defence. Among other things, if
forbidden to dig in bedrooms, they desire not to be debarred from digging in
other rooms in dwelling houses; also that owners of dove houses and stables
should be prohibited from adopting measures which, prevent the growth of
saltpetre; that owners of carriages may still be compellable to carry the saltpetre
at 4d. a mile; that the Deputies may take- wood ashes wherever found at a
certain reasonable price; with other provisions framed in the same spirit. (S. P.
Dom. Charles 1, vol. clxxxix, No. 89.)
1631, 14th June. Matthew Goad, Deputy Clerk of the Star Chamber, to the
judges of the same Court. Certificate that in the cause of John Morley and others
against Thos. Hilliard and others, it is confessed in the answers of the
defendants that some of them dug for saltpetre under the beds of persons who
were sick therein, that compositions were taken for discharge of carts
commanded to carry saltpetre, that Hilliard hired horses to draw his wife's coach
up and down the country at the King's price, and caused the country to carry
coals for the work of saltpetre, and sold the same again to his own advantage.
(S. P. Dom. Charles I, vol. cxciii, No. 83.)
1634, 14th March. A proclamation for the preservation of the mines of saltpetre.
No dovehouse or dovecot or cellar to be paved, and no stables pitched paved or
gravelled, where horse feet stand, but planked only. (Rymer's " Foedera," xix, p.
601.)
18th March. The Lords of the Admiralty to the Governor and Company of
Soapboilers. Give orders that the saltpetre men are to have the pre-emption of
wood ashes, on the ground that saltpetre is a commodity of such necessary use
for the King and Public that it ought to be preferred before the making of soap.
(S. P. Dom. Charles I, vol. cclxiii, No. i.)
1634, 15th November. Richard Bagnall, slatpeter man to Nicholas. Sends
enclosed list of names of those who have lately carried forth their earth in their
pigeon houses. If some course be not taken others will do the same, and it will
be impossible for the saltpetre men to supply their great proportions, besides
destroying the mine. (S. P. Dom. Charles I, Vol. cclxxvii, No. 52.)
Annexed list (52. i) above mentioned. It contains names of persons in cos.
Oxford and Warwick.
1634, 2nd December. Petition of John Giffard, saltpetre man to the Lords of the
Admiralty. His hindrances by refusal of people in Gloucester to carry coal from
the adjacent pits to his boiling-house in Thornburg; also because they carry off
the earth from their pigeon-houses to manure their lands. (S. P. Dom. Charles I,
Vol. cclxxviii, No. 4-)
1634, 26th November. The Lords of the Admiralty to Montjoy Earl of Newport.
His Majesty is resolved to take into his hands and disposition all the gunpowder
made of the saltpetre of the kingdom, for better furnishing his occasions and
those of his subjects. (S. P. Dom. Charles I, vol. cclxxvii, No. 96.)
1634, 2nd December. Petition of John Giffard, saltpetre man to the Lords of the
Admiralty. His hindrances by refusal of people in Gloucester to carry coal from
the adjacent pits to his boilinghouse in Thornburg; also because they carry off
the earth from their pigeon-houses to manure their lands. (S. P. Dom. Charles I,
vol. cclxxviii, No- 4.)
1635, 18th April. Admiralty order to enquire concerning complaints of Thomas
Thornhill that divers persons in Somerset, contrary to proclamations, have
carried forth the earth out of their dovehouses, and divers inn-keepers have
paved their stables, by which practices the mine of saltpetre is destroyed. (S. P.
Dom. Charles I, vol. cclxiv, f. 115-)
1637, 3rd June. Articles exhibited to the Commissioners for Saltpetre by
Christopher Wren, Dean of Windsor, and Rector of Knoyle Magna or Epicopi,
Wilts, against Thomas Thornhill, saltpetreman, for damage done by digging for
saltpetre in the pigeon-house of the said rectory. There have been two diggings
in this pigeon-house, one by Helyar, whom Thornhill then served, about eight
years ago, the other by Thornhill in March, 1636-7. On the first occasion, the
pigeon-house, built of massy stone walls 20 ft. high, was so shaken that the
Rector was forced to buttress tip the east side thereof. On the last occasion the
foundation was undermined, and the north wall fell in. The loss to the Rector had
been that of three breeds, whereof the least never yielded fewer than -o or 4o
dozen, and of the whole flight, which forsook the house, and the Rector stands
endangered to the law for dilapidations. Thornhill has refused all recompense,
telling the Dean that the King must bear him out. The Dean desires that Thornhill
may make full recompense according to the King's pleasure signified on behalf
of the Dean, who is registrar of the Garter, at the last chapter of the Order in
Whitehall on 18th April last. Underwritten:
8.1. Order of the Lords that Thornhill answer these articles by that day sennight.
Whitehall, 3rd June, 1637(S. P. Dom. Charles 1, vol. ccclxi, No. 8.)
SO:
The Rise and Progress of the British Explosives Industry
Published under the auspices of the:-
VIIth International Congress of Applied Chemistry
E A Brayley Hodgetts editor
Whittaker and Co. London 1909
donald j haarmann
-------------------------
"And that it was a great pity, so it was,
That villainous saltpetre should be digg'd
Out of the bowels of this harmless earth."
Act 1, Henry IV.
donald haarmann
| I don't know the answer to your question, but I would look at
| Equisetum-- aka scouring rushes. They have extremely high Si uptake. As
| a primitive plant whose chlorosphyll is incorporated in the stems, the
| Si, is used as a supporting structure.
|
| Also, the Na, K, Ca group are also metals utilized by plants.
---------
Panskinu & Zeeuw
Textbook of Wood Technology
McGraw Hill 1980
Note - The heartwood of several tropical trees are immune to the attack of marine bores.One group
contains more than 2% silica, e.g., genera Licania and Parinari and several special of the genus
Eschweilera form S America.
Salt (sodium chloride) was/is obtained from plants by several groups of inland tropical native groups.
--
donald j haarmann
----------------------------
There are more things in heaven and
earth, Horatio.
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
The Melancholy Dane
mjho...@brookes.ac.uk
monosilicic acid, a neutral species. This quite unusual as most
elements are taken up as cations or anions. The other element thought
to be taken up as a neutral species is boron. Si is thought to be
transported through to plant mostly as monomeric silica, but I think in
some species the xylem sap may get so concentrated that polymers form.
The soluble silica is then concentrated in certain cells- often, but
not exclusively at the end of the xylem stream. Above a certain
concentration it comes out of solution, and forms solid deposits of
amorphous silica (phytoliths). These are not really a "store" as the
process seems irreversible. The phytoliths take the shape of the cells
etc., and have uses in archaeology and palaeoecology as markers.
Functions? Defence against herbivores and pathogens. Helps keep plants
upright (particularly grasses). In soluble form it seems to reduce Al
and heavy metal toxicity.
Hope that helps!
Martin
hanson
message news:12194vr...@corp.supernews.com...
> I don't know the answer to your question, but I would look at
> Si uptake. [1] As a primitive plant whose chlorosphyll is incorp'd
> in the stems, the Si, is used as a supporting structure. [2]
> Also, the Na, K, Ca group are also metals utilized by plants. [3]
>
[hanson]
Thanks Jo. AFAYK, is [1], such a high Si uptake, common to
all such primitive plants (Fern, Lichen etc)? If yes, then there's
here an interesting link to the origin of multi-cellular plant life.
In marine plankton, the radiolarians, all do have skeletons made
of beautiful microscopic SiO2 structures.
What Si chemistry and physics is involved in their existence &
growth? -- How & in what form do they extract Si from sea water?
What chemical Si-reactions are involved in this transport?
What soluble silicates are there in ocean water?
I have no problems with [3] presence at all, not even with [2]
using the rigid SiO2 networks as a the basic inorganic frame
around which the "living" CHNO networks grow and harden
(a bit like in a fiber-glass analogy)... But what I have not seen
a good/elegnat explanation yet for in what form this Si4+ or
H4SiO4 is transported into and through the plant.
hanson
hanson
news:1142272514.2...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Generally it is thought that silicon is taken by plants up as soluble
Thanks Martin. I too would love to think that [1] monosilicic acid,
Si(OH)4 or H4SiO4 [2] is the transporting agent for phyto-Si and
I have neither any problems with the rest of your assertions.
Tell me more about the chem and physics of [2] from rocks like
(polyvalent Me-silicates) granite or feldspar [3] into the phytoliths
deposits, for it doesn't seem to be a very well known thing.
IIRC, mono [2] is stable in water and in rather high concentrations
under near freezing conditions, but polymerizes (polycondensates
with water loss) quickly to become immediately insoluble as meta-
silicate, especially with electrolytes (salt) or higher temps present.
Also [2] is disassociates so weakly that even the H2CO3 from
dissolved CO2 in water will liberate it out of the rocks [3].
So the explanation for the origin of the necessary [2] for the phyto-Si
in nature is an "acceptable" one to me. But now the info available to
me for [2]'s next step into the bio domains of the plant gets sparser.
What other events/processes do play a role? Does the root system
alone do the job or are there symbiotic interplays required?
Does the possible presence of Fluoride and Mg / Zn factor in
to form these highly soluble Fluosilicates, SiF6--. compounds?...
Or do heavy metals like tungsten, W, facilitate the H4SiO4 [2]
transport by forming the highly soluble Silico Tungsten acid,
H4[SiO4(W3O9)4], .... and/or Mo & V, who in similar fashion
together with phosphates do form soluble [2] complexes?
.... or on the organic front does [2] form those soluble 5-ligand
coordinates (instead of the usual 4) in the presence of your
Xylem-sap, it presumably being mostly a 2-6 C (ring or chain)
keto/aldo carbohydrate agglomerate. Is there a known possibility
that these sugars can substitute, be or use Si(OH)4 as an ligand
and transport this insoluble item [2] in a "clatherated" soluble
form thru the system until conditions arise inside the plant where
[2] gets "expelled"/precipitated or exchanged and forms your
phytoliths?
Tell me more, Martin, dudes and dudettes. Gimme some urls.
This [2] chem and physics is fascinating, from its mechanism of
eroding mountain ranges, influencing climate change, being a
necessary building block in the global food chain all the way to
GE-plant modification improvement, and the preparation of hi-tech
electronic nano sized electronic components. Thanks.
hanson
hanson
news:r41Rf.2869$x94....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "Jo Schaper" <joschape...@2socketdot.no5net> wrote in
> message news:12194vr...@corp.supernews.com...
>> hanson wrote:
>> > Re: element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too
>> > much ash
>> >
>> > "Bob" <bbx...@excite.XXXX.com> wrote in message
>> > news:n6661252qh95a7v4k...@4ax.com...
>> >
>> >>>"Farooq W" <faro...@gmail.com
>> >>>| More surprising the uptake of heavy metals especially
>> >>>| Th and U by the plants...Barium is abnormally high or the
>> >>>| soil on which that tree grew was rich in barium ores!
>> >>>
>> >>On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 02:27:31 GMT, "donald haarmann"
>> >><donald-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> >>>The up take of uranium by plants is well know. See for
>> >>> example :-
>> >>>Botanical Prospecting for Uranium on La Ventana Mesa,
>>> >> Sandoval
>> >>>County New Mexico. US Geological Survey Bulletin 1009-M.
>> >>
>> > [Bob]
>> >>A Berkeley group is developing the use of a plant for Se
>> >>decontamination of soil. It is in field testing. (I could
>> >>probably find a ref if someone wants it.)
>> >>Then there are the Ni accumulators, which have several
>> >> percent Ni in their sap, nicely chelated (citrate, I think).
>> >>bob
>> >>
>> > [hanson]
>> > =1= I posted this into sci.geo.geology in hope to get some
>> > effectiveness of BP.
>> > =2= As what/which compound does Si get into solution
>> > from the calcogen silicates, considering that SiO4--
>> > is stable only at pH >11 in aq?
>> > =3= in what soluble or sol-gel form is Silicon taken up
>> > and transported in/to the plant (at a pH range ~< 7)
>> > =4= As what/which compound is Si stored in the plant?
>> > =5= and what function does the Si have in the plants?
>
> If someone is familiar with the Russian professional literature,
> this is one of its admirable specialties.
> Regards,
>
ahahaha... yeah, yeah, I bet... ahaha... So, what do the Ruskies
say?... Even if you don't know, Hennessey, your 2 liner still was
good for a chuckle, unless you plagiarized it from the National
Inquirer... well.. even then it would be funny and VERY helpful.
Thanks for the laugh....ahahaha... ahahanson
Aidan Karley
> Thanks Jo. AFAYK, is [1], such a high Si uptake, common to
> all such primitive plants (Fern, Lichen etc)?
>
ferns happily growing on clean limestones with 2/10th of damn-all
percent silica in their composition, I don't think that all of them
*require* appreciable environmental silicon.
> In marine plankton, the radiolarians, all do have skeletons made
> of beautiful microscopic SiO2 structures.
>
produce strontium sulphate skeletons. some produce no skeletons. But
radiolaria are only a relatively small part of the general planktonic
fauna and flora.
> But what I have not seen
> a good/elegnat explanation yet for in what form this Si4+ or
> H4SiO4 is transported into and through the plant.
>
12.3 and higher - keep those face shields on! And they're an absolute
bitch to wash samples in.) I'd suspect that solution-load silicate is
moved as a range of complexes with organic compounds for 2 reasons : as
you point out, in simple inorganic systems the pH required to keep
silicate in solution is high (very alkaline); and the rate of
weathering of rocks (and the *style* of weathering) increases rapidly
as the plant cover increases, and by implication as the quantities of
organic acids and complexing agents increases. But I don't have the
chemistry to put any detail on that.
Seawater silicate concentrations are (generally) appreciably
lower than temperate runoff (river water, essentially), suggesting that
there are some organisms or processes in the ocean that are very
efficient at removing silicate from the oceans.
Come to think of it - ISTR that the effluvia of mid-ocean
hydrothermal systems also have a significant silicate input to the
oceans, which something is removing. Now where did I read that ... it's
relatively recent.
--
Aidan Karley FGS
Aberdeen, Scotland,
Location: 57°10'11" N, 02°08'43" W (sub-tropical Aberdeen), 0.021233
Carsten Troelsgaard
"hanson" <han...@quick.net> skrev i en meddelelse
news:_kIQf.196$Km6.54@trnddc01...
I cann't answer your questions, but I've googled something from the
geological perspective.
I havn't read this ... it looks promising
http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/sci/bio/research/margenes/publications/lopezsilica03.pdf
My own comment. quote
Si++++ makes a geometrically favorably
binding with O in the sense that it perfectly fits the dimple between 4O
atoms stacked as a pyramid. Al+++ is a small ion too and has exchange with
Si. In silicates the SiO4---- tetraedron are considered a building-block,
and it has any imaginary crystaline combination with metals, from pairs of
tetraeder sharing one O and saturates other bindings with Fe++ or Mg++
through to chains, rings, sheets and frameworks sharing more corners
depending of availabillity of Si.
Unquote
Halfway down the page is an electron microscopic image of opal
http://www.grahamblackopal.com/webcontent10.htm
My comment:
I don't think that anyone knows why these tiny puff-balls of silica forms in
such an ordered way. It is basically this mystery and that it could be
biologically mediated that cause me to ponder and respond.
This beetle knows how
http://www.gbjewelers.com/education/opals/opal-beetle.html
Replacement by opal. Fossilized wood. Opalisation is a core process that
generates a host of semi-precious stones.
http://www.microscopy-online.com/Vendors/Leica/Stereo/5b.jpg
Opal (disordered hydrated silica)
http://www.galleries.com/minerals/mineralo/opal/opal.htm
quote
Although there is no crystal structure, (meaning a regular arrangement of
atoms) opal does possess a structure nonetheless. Random chains of silicon
and oxygen are packed into extraordinarily tiny spheres. These spheres in
most Opals are irregular in size and inconsistent in concentration. Yet in
Precious Opal, the variety used most often in jewelry, there are many
organized pockets of the spheres. These pockets contain spheres of
approximately equal size and have a regular concentration, or structure, of
the spheres.
unquote
General info on flint and chert
http://www.abdn.ac.uk/geospatial/summer/oldwebsite/factsheet1.htm
Quote
Cryptocrystalline Quartz
Cryptocrystalline quartz is simply quartz whose crystals are so small that
they can only be seen with the aid of a high-power microscope. It is formed
geologically from silica that has dissolved from silicate materials. Over
geological time, this amorphous silica gel dehydrates to form microscopic
crystals and eventually becomes what we know physically as rock.
Cryptocrystalline quartz occurs in many varieties. These varieties have been
named based on their color, opacity, banding and other observable physical
features. Technically speaking, the two varieties that account for the vast
majority of "flint" artifact materials are chalcedony and chert.
Other varieties encountered in the artifact world are agate, jasper and
petrified wood. Interestingly, petrified wood is usually wood that has becn
replaced by agate. This same process also occurs with coral, hence the term
"agatized coral".
Chalcedony Chert and Flint
Chalcedony is a variety of cryptocrystalline quartz with extremely small
crystals and a specific gravity (weight under water, a measure of a
rock/mineral's purity) nearly identical to that of pure quartz. Due to its
very high quartz content and super fine particle matrix, chalcedony has a
very waxy luster.
Chert is composed of larger crystal particles and has a specific gravity
similar that of pure quartz. Due to impurities and larger particle sizes,
chert is somewhat less "quartz-like" than chalcedony. Chert is duller and
more opaque than chalcedony and its luster ranges from non-existant to very
waxy, depending on the individual rock formation.
So what is flint? By mineralogical definition, flint is simply black chert.
It appears that the term "flint" was originally applied to the high quality
black cherts found in England. Over the years names have evolved for local
chert formations/deposits that may include the word "flint" and technically
speaking these would be incorrect more oflen than not. The reality of the
flint verses chert debate is that in most cases it is something like
"splitting hairs", there really is very little difference, chemically
speaking. Artifact collectors tend to call materials that have a more waxy
luster "flints" and those which have less luster to no luster "cherts". The
difference between them lyes in their purity relative to pure quartz and
their matrix particle size. The smaller the particle size and the purer the
material, the more likely we collectors would be to call the material flint.
To a purist, we would be wrong. A generalist would say "close enough".
Note: Some examples of Flint Ridge Flint are known to be 98.93 % pure
silicon dioxide.
Unquote
Carsten
Michael Hearne
What is your qualification to be an expert on Russian society? We were
taught for all our lives that they were the enemy, only to find out
later that they were just like us.
It seems to me that you ought to curse the politicians who lied to you,
rather than the scientists.
Michael
hanson
"Michael Hearne" <he...@home.us> who wrote in message
news:_zzRf.3939$sL2....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>>>>>>>"Farooq W" <faro...@gmail.com
>>>>>>>| More surprising the uptake of heavy metals especially
>>>>>>>| Th and U by the plants...Barium is abnormally high or the
>>>>>>>| soil on which that tree grew was rich in barium ores!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 02:27:31 GMT, "donald haarmann"
>>>>>><donald-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>The up take of uranium by plants is well know.
>>>>>>>956. Some plants uptake serious amounts of selenium.
>>>>>>
>>>>>[Bob]
>>>>>>decontamination of soil. It is in field testing. (I could
>>>>>>probably find a ref if someone wants it.)
>>>>>>Then there are the Ni accumulators, which have several
>>>>>>percent Ni in their sap, nicely chelated (citrate, I think).
>>>>>
>>>>>=1= I posted this into sci.geo.geology in hope to get some
>>>>>views from the geos' camp about the popularity and
>>>>>effectiveness of BP.
>>>>>=2= As what/which compound does Si get into solution
>>>>>from the calcogen silicates, considering that SiO4--
>>>>>is stable only at pH >11 in aq?
>>>>>=3= in what soluble or sol-gel form is Silicon taken up
>>>>>and transported in/to the plant (at a pH range ~< 7)
>>>>>=4= As what/which compound is Si stored in the plant?
>>>>>=5= and what function does the Si have in the plants?
>>>
>> [Edward Hennessey]
>>>If someone is familiar with the Russian professional literature,
>>>this is one of its admirable specialties.
>>>
>> ahahaha... yeah, yeah, I bet... ahaha... So, what do the Ruskies
>> say?... Even if you don't know, Hennessey, your 2 liner still was
>> good for a chuckle, unless you plagiarized it from the National
>> Inquirer... well.. even then it would be funny and VERY helpful.
>> Thanks for the laugh....ahahaha... ahahanson
>>
> What is your qualification to be an expert on Russian society?
> We were taught for all our lives that they were the enemy,
> only to find out later that they were just like us. It seems to
> me that you ought to curse the politicians who lied to you,
>
[hanson]
ahahaha... Hey, Gennady-Mike [1], don't be so fanatic. I am glad
that you finally see politics for what it is, but you must be full of
Vodka [2] to have concluded what you typed from what you've
read... ... BTW, we are talking plant chemistry here, my dear
russophile: *** So, what do the Ruskies say? *** comrade Mickey.
Thanks for the laughs.... ahahaha... ahahanson
PS: [1] Gennady = Russian Toon Superman, --- [2] Vodka =
Russian Volks-tonic to become like Gennady
Jo Schaper
cryptocrystalline quartz is based on regional speech variation and state
of manufacture, not color, luster, or any objective standards.
Archeologists and those referring to human worked rock generally use
flint or flints.
Therefore, chert nodules can be worked into flint arrowheads.
Nobody said it had to make sense.
Jo
Jo Schaper
hanson,
I am not a botanist, nor a botanic chemist. I would suggest you go to
a local botanical garden, or the botany section of a college library and
look up such things as 'natural terrestrial communities' 'acidic soil
ecosystems''alkaline soil ecosystem'(to see how the other half lives)
'sandstone glade' 'chert glade' 'igneous glade' and any other
combination of silic rock name plus landform (prairie, forest, savanna,
fen, bog, etc.)
As a generalization, more primitive plants do tend to populate more
silic environments, (pines on sandstone, deciduous trees on limestone)
but these are generalizations, with many exceptions as some trees and
plants (blackjack oak, post oak) do adapt to silic environments.
A good naturalist can walk through an area and accurately predict either
the rock or the plants if they know the other, plus the amount of
retained moisture and sun which an area gets.
I had to look up all this stuff when I did my thesis--in order to relate
water chemistry to some of the plants, and their possible interaction
with travertine deposition (i.e., was the water, the slope or the plants
controlling deposition) and I found more info than I could absorb or use
by just browsing in ecology,agronomy and silviculture texts.
Edward Hennessey
"Michael Hearne" <he...@home.us> wrote in message
news:_zzRf.3939$sL2....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
We were
> taught for all our lives that they were the enemy, only to find
out
> later that they were just like us.
>
> It seems to me that you ought to curse the politicians who lied
to you,
> rather than the scientists.
>
> Michael
Michael:
Whatever that missing link was saying, I didn't see until your
kind post because its prior incursions on our group had already
merited the killfile.
I do have a bit of that indicated Russian literature here and, if
time permits
someday, perhaps it will serve as grist for posting.
Regards,
Edward Hennessey
Aidan Karley
> Halfway down the page is an electron microscopic image of opal
> http://www.grahamblackopal.com/webcontent10.htm
>
J. F. Cornwall
> In article <4416a0e1$1$168$edfa...@dread16.news.tele.dk>, Carsten
> Troelsgaard wrote:
>
>>Halfway down the page is an electron microscopic image of opal
>>http://www.grahamblackopal.com/webcontent10.htm
>>
>
> Wow.
>
pete
Carsten Troelsgaard <carsten.troe...@mail.dk> sez:
I missed this earlier..
` General info on flint and chert
` http://www.abdn.ac.uk/geospatial/summer/oldwebsite/factsheet1.htm
` Quote
` Cryptocrystalline Quartz
` Cryptocrystalline quartz is simply quartz whose crystals are so small that
` they can only be seen with the aid of a high-power microscope. It is formed
` geologically from silica that has dissolved from silicate materials. Over
` geological time, this amorphous silica gel dehydrates to form microscopic
` crystals and eventually becomes what we know physically as rock.
` Cryptocrystalline quartz occurs in many varieties. These varieties have been
` named based on their color, opacity, banding and other observable physical
` features. Technically speaking, the two varieties that account for the vast
` majority of "flint" artifact materials are chalcedony and chert.
` Other varieties encountered in the artifact world are agate, jasper and
` petrified wood. Interestingly, petrified wood is usually wood that has becn
` replaced by agate. This same process also occurs with coral, hence the term
` "agatized coral".
` Chalcedony Chert and Flint
` Chalcedony is a variety of cryptocrystalline quartz with extremely small
` crystals and a specific gravity (weight under water, a measure of a
` rock/mineral's purity) nearly identical to that of pure quartz. Due to its
` very high quartz content and super fine particle matrix, chalcedony has a
` very waxy luster.
Yipes, what a horrendously mangled misdefinition of specific gravity.
By that definition, water has a specific gravity of 0, and wood has
a negative sg. I guess it's a mistranslation of something from another
language, intended to be read as "weight divided by weight of an equal
volume of water", at least I hope that's the explanation.
--
==========================================================================
vincent@triumf[munge].ca Pete Vincent
Disclaimer: all I know I learned from reading Usenet.
John Savage
>b...@cs.toronto.no-uce.edu wrote:
>> In article <1141653875.2...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
>> Farooq W <faro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Dan wrote:
>>>
>>>>Soil and Dirt particles?! Is that a scientific analysis? Contaminated?
Dust and grit I'd reckon, too.
>But I know some tree species evolved into a fire resistant bark in order
>to live in fire prone regions, so I wonder what chemical it is that
>gives them the best fire resistance. Is it potassium and salts?
Probably more to do with the structure of the bark. If it traps a lot
of air in bubbles (porous) or between layers of bark, the air will be
an effective insulator. A tightly rolled newspaper is difficult to
cleanly burn unless you can fan it strongly to burn away the charcoal
and blow away the ash as quickly as it forms, otherwise the powdery ash
smothers the flame. To wit, the Australian paper-bark tree is very fire
resistant, its bark being like a tightly rolled 1000-layer ricepaper
newsprint and contains no flammable resin.
Is a cork tree fireproof?
--
John Savage (my news address is not valid for email)
Aidan Karley
> ` Chalcedony is a variety of cryptocrystalline quartz with extremely small
> ` crystals and a specific gravity (weight under water, a measure of a
> ` rock/mineral's purity) nearly identical to that of pure quartz. Due to its
> ` very high quartz content and super fine particle matrix, chalcedony has a
> ` very waxy luster.
>
> Yipes, what a horrendously mangled misdefinition of specific gravity.
> By that definition, water has a specific gravity of 0, and wood has
> a negative sg. I guess it's a mistranslation of something from another
> language,
>
Looking elsewhere ...
> This large group includes all minerals with the primary chemical formula 5i02
> (silicon dioxide) and is most abundantly represented in nature by pure quartz
> and its many cryptocrystalline forms.
>
Now that looks like OCR gone wrong.
I don't recognise the names of the "maintainers" of the page, but looking around,
I think it's something maintained by the *geography* department. Can't expect them to
get rocks right. Or to walk straight while chewing gum.
I'll mention it next time I'm in the department. Or maybe I won't - I might be
asked to do the maintenance.
Jo Schaper
a_plu...@hotmail.com
A Berkeley group is developing the use of a plant for Se
decontamination of soil. It is in field testing. (I could probably
find a ref if someone wants it.)
Then there are the Ni accumulators, which have several percent Ni in
their sap, nicely chelated (citrate, I think).
A.P. writes:
Bob, can you say anything theoretical about the periodic chart of
chemical elements as to that of fire, burning and ash. Consider that
the elements to making fire are oxygen, carbon which are far to the
right of the chart in rows 4A, 6A and that potassium of ashes is in row
1A far to the left in the chart. So is there some chart relationship as
to fire and burning and the ash remaining afterwards. Is the act of
fire some sort of acid base reaction.
Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies
Aidan Karley
Nature has an article that appears likely to be relevant :
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v440/n7084/abs/nature04590.html
In article <_kIQf.196$Km6.54@trnddc01>, Hanson wrote:
> From: "hanson" <han...@quick.net>
> Newsgroups: sci.bio.botany,sci.chem,sci.geo.geology
> Subject: Metals/Inorganics in Plants
> Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 22:39:54 GMT
>
> Re: element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash
>
> "Bob" <bbx...@excite.XXXX.com> wrote in message
> news:n6661252qh95a7v4k...@4ax.com...
> >>"Farooq W" <faro...@gmail.com
> >>| More surprising the uptake of heavy metals especially
> >>| Th and U by the plants...Barium is abnormally high or the
> >>| soil on which that tree grew was rich in barium ores!
> >>
> > On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 02:27:31 GMT, "donald haarmann"
> > <donald-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >>The up take of uranium by plants is well know. See for example :-
> >>Botanical Prospecting for Uranium on La Ventana Mesa, Sandoval
> >>County New Mexico. US Geological Survey Bulletin 1009-M. 1956.
> >>Some plants uptake serious amounts of selenium.
> >
> [Bob]
> > A Berkeley group is developing the use of a plant for Se
> > decontamination of soil. It is in field testing. (I could probably
> > find a ref if someone wants it.)
> > Then there are the Ni accumulators, which have several percent Ni in
> > their sap, nicely chelated (citrate, I think).
> > bob
> >
> [hanson]
> =1= I posted this into sci.geo.geology in hope to get some views
> from the geos' camp about the popularity & effectiveness of BP.
> =2= As what/which compound does Si get into solution from the
> calcogen silicates, considering that SiO4-- is stable only at
> pH >11 in aq?
> =3= in what soluble or sol-gel form is Silicon taken up
> and transported in/to the plant (at a pH range ~< 7)
> =4= As what/which compound is Si stored in the plant?
> =5= and what function does the Si have in the plants?
>
Abstract:
Nature 440, 688-691 (30 March 2006) | doi:10.1038/nature04590; Received
5 September 2005; ; Accepted 18 January 2006
A silicon transporter in rice
Jian Feng Ma, Kazunori Tamai, Naoki Yamaji, Namiki Mitani, Saeko
Konishi, Maki Katsuhara, Masaji Ishiguro, Yoshiko Murata and Masahiro
Yano
Silicon is beneficial to plant growth and helps plants to overcome
abiotic and biotic stresses by preventing lodging (falling over) and
increasing resistance to pests and diseases, as well as other stresses.
Silicon is essential for high and sustainable production of rice, but
the molecular mechanism responsible for the uptake of silicon is
unknown. Here we describe the Low silicon rice 1 (Lsi1) gene, which
controls silicon accumulation in rice, a typical silicon-accumulating
plant. This gene belongs to the aquaporin family and is constitutively
expressed in the roots. Lsi1 is localized on the plasma membrane of the
distal side of both exodermis and endodermis cells, where casparian
strips are located. Suppression of Lsi1 expression resulted in reduced
silicon uptake. Furthermore, expression of Lsi1 in Xenopus oocytes
showed transport activity for silicon only. The identification of a
silicon transporter provides both an insight into the silicon uptake
system in plants, and a new strategy for producing crops with high
resistance to multiple stresses by genetic modification of the root's
silicon uptake capacity.
--
Aidan Karley, FGS
don findlay
Aidan Karley wrote:
> I'll mention it next time I'm in the department. Or maybe I won't - I might be
> asked to do the maintenance.
Why would you? You can't even manage your stuck capslock key. "or
maybe you won't", ... indeed. Somehow I don't think your very useful
around the house, Aidan.