Do we need a new group? (sci.chem.homework)
winter vegetable
sci.chem.homework where lazy students can ask their questions and be
flamed without clogging up sci.chem.
When I was a postgraduate student I taught undergrad lab classes. In
one of the classes there was a student who could charitably be described
as menatlly challenged. The staff wanted to fail him (he didn't attend
very often and when he did he was disruptive and didn't do what he was
supposed to). We said he should be passed b/c it meant a lot to him and
he probably was not going to go on in chem and anyhow it would get rid
of him. It turned out he wanted to major in chem but didn't like doing
labs in case the chemicals reacted. (We pointed out that we were
actually kind of hoping the chemicals would react).
The staff pointed out that it would devalue our own degrees if we helped
him b/c he hadn't been able or willing to even attempt the work. (It
was true, he usually didn't even try, but we felt bad for him b/c he had
other problems).
I now think the staff were right. Helping these snots who want us to do
their homework is the same. It is obvious in the vast majority of cases
that they haven't even opened their text books.
wv
Brian Moore
winter vegetable <win...@hot-soup.cup> wrote:
...
>
>I now think the staff were right. Helping these snots who want us to do
>their homework is the same. It is obvious in the vast majority of cases
>that they haven't even opened their text books.
>
>wv
It's all a question of how you help. Hell, if we didn't want to give
anyone any help we wouldn't give them an instructor at all.
But I do like the idea for the newsgroup, though I'm not sure it would
necessarily cut down on the posts here asking for help. I think that
one mistake students make when they post here is they assume
there are a lot of students reading this group. Perhaps the group
you suggest might attract more. I think it is generally a good
thing to get students talking to each other.
--
Brian G. Moore, School of Science, Penn State Erie--The Behrend College
bg...@psu.edu , (814)-898-6334
Uncle Al
One-legged people don't belong in ass-kicking contests. If they do
participate they don't deserve to win except by winning.
UVic has a very large Fine Arts department that makes the terrible
mistake of displaying student work. Some of it is good and much of it
is awful... but the overwhelming proportion of it is talentless. Good
or bad is acceptable. Talentless should be failed and discarded. Pay
your tuition, serve your time, buy your Bachelor of Fuck-All. Start
out young and unemployed, get your BoFA, end up unemployed.
Organikers survive theoretical chemistry and P-chemists survive
synthesis. I've never seen a strong student failed because of a
selective deficiency. There's always a way to cram it into his head
long enough to Officially count. The weak are properly allowed to die
of their own hand. Resouces are limited and precious. Only fools and
Liberals administer medicine to corpses.
Uncle Al survived 15 credits of 2.0 and below in German. "So wie das
Auschlage, so also die Forelle nicht habt gehaben sein." Fraulein
Zelinka's eyes went wide, filled with tears, and she ran from the
room. You'd think TAs would be made of tougher stuff than that.
Uncle Al never turned away from pre-meds.
"Angewandte Chemie" and Beilstein are published in English. Hah hah
hah!
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" The Net!
Mr. XXXX
In school, I often did help people (esp. girls!) out the heavy stuff in
which I could do it. Some schools are TOO difficult, not to mention a few
teachers who just don't want people who they don't like to pass.
Lloyd R. Parker
: Why not?
:
: In school, I often did help people (esp. girls!) out the heavy stuff in
: which I could do it. Some schools are TOO difficult, not to mention a few
: teachers who just don't want people who they don't like to pass.
I get some interesting challenge problems for my freshman chem class from
the homework problems some post here.
Artem Evdokimov
>Some schools are TOO difficult
Eh ? So, I guess in the usual manner of U.S. approach to education, we
should dumb down the courses even further?
" Today we shall be learning addition. For those of you who chose not to be
threatened with a possibility of a thought passing through the head,
constructive snoring classes are just across the hall."
At some point, bright students would be offered drugs, insulin shock and
lobotomy as the officially approved ways to 'not stray ahead of the class'.
What do you think the 'school counselor' will evolve into ?
"Doctor, I feel lonely and depressed. I see things, horrible things, which
no one else notices"
"Very interesting, please continue"
"Did you know that school bells always ring in multiples of 15 minutes ? I
sense conspiracy and foul play!"
"You may be taking on too much load in math! Children of your age aren't
supposed to be able to count. But do not worry, we have drugs to help you
cope with your unfortunate brightness, young man. Here's a prescription -
and it's free, too!"
And I am not trying to be humorous here - I pretty much see it coming.
A.
SNUMBER6
>Eh ? So, I guess in the usual manner of U.S. approach to education, we
>should dumb down the courses even further?
The local college has 4 columns of Math before getting to Calculus ... the
first being Introduction to Pre-Algebra ( I think sub-titled The Numbers from 1
to 100)... We waste too much resources trying to make the brain dead become
alive ...
In the Village ....
I am not a number ... I am a free man !!!!
Uncle Al
[snip]
> One of our TA training sessions was held in a classroom in the education
> building. On the walls were student-made posters decrying the evils of
> separating students by ability. I'd expect this kind of indoctrination in
> North Korean or Taliban schools, but here? I say we burn all education
> colleges to the ground and salt the earth.
One needn't be philosophical. From McGuffey's "Eclectic Primer"
(1843) through WWII, New York City schools processed the meanest,
poorest, most socially aberrant children in Western civilization -
immigrants' spawn. The parents didn't speak English and had no
cultural basis in America. Welfare, free medical care, and even
sanitation were non-existent - people starved to death and died of
cholera in the slums. No workplace safety laws, no discrimination
laws, no unions, no child labor laws; no alcohol, tobacco, and drug
laws for any age group. There was no educational theory, either. No
air conditioned schools, no carpeting, no couseling, no teachers'
aids. I went to PS 208 for primary school: desks with brass inkwells
bolted to wooden floors. A disruptive kid got a ruler across the
knuckles, the strap, and more interesting and intense correctional
modalities when he went home with a pink slip. (A Catholic school
aquaintence enjoyed a classroom with a dented blackboard. Said
depression was created when the head of a student in the grip of a nun
was smashed into it. The dent was thereafter part of the curriculum.)
Literacy and numeracy rates were nearly 100%; "learning disabilities"
were non-existent. You learned the stuff or else. New York City took
said immigrant scum and output Nobel laureates - 11 from crappy CUNY
alone,
This includes Leon Lederman ("The God Particle"), Arno Penzias (past
head of Bell Labs; discoverer of the Big Bang microwave background),
and Rosalyn Yallow (discoverer of radioimmunoassay). These are not
lightweights.
Today 30+% of the student population has "learning disabilities."
Pinko bleeding heart Liberal "Scientfic American" October 2001 p. 24:
59% of Black high school graduates cannot balance a checkbook or make
change of a dollar. These are folks who have been in the country for
more than 200 years. Vietnamese immigrants in the 1960s and 1970s had
kids that flooded the University of California - 70% of the student
population! - despite suffering a full standard deviation *subtracted*
from their admissions scores to keep their numbers down. WHAT IS
WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?
When I attended Moo U 1969-1973, my first term organic lecture started
with
"There are 1200 people enrolled in Majors organic chemistry. Next
term's first organic lab holds 400 people. At least 800 of you will
be failed." 385 made it into lab; 17 graduated BS/Chem. There
weren't any apologies. No apologies were required. Moo U had 40,000
students at the time.
Today at UVic the annual chemistry graduating class is around 30, and
UVic is a small school. The whole of Canada might need 30 new
chemists/year - and there are *lots* of universities outputting
product. If you want a BS or BA at UVic all you need do is pay
tuition for five years (one year of work/study at minimum wage and
full tuition and fees). You will exit some $30-60K in debt in a
country where a fat salary is $30K/annum, the tax rate starts at 50%,
and mortgages are *not* tax-deductible. The People's Republic of
Canada is already dead, choked on every Canadian with a expensive and
meaningless university degree.
One therefore draws two limiting conclusions in the US:
1) "The Bell Curve" and its enormous statistical assertion that
Blacks and Browns are intrinsically intractably unintelligent compared
to White and Yellow competition. Pouring untold billions of dollars
($1.1 billion for Project Head Start in Fiscal 2001) into their
"special education" is then an idiot's (or Liberal's) obsession; or
2) Education has been debased into uselessness and stuffed to
overflowing with sinecures for high-salaried degreed incompetents
breeding their own kind in a steep downward spiral.
Even Roman Catholic shanty Irish were educated into utility. Uncle Al
takes (2) as a given.
Matthew Comstock
> with
>
> "There are 1200 people enrolled in Majors organic chemistry. Next
> term's first organic lab holds 400 people. At least 800 of you will
> be failed." 385 made it into lab; 17 graduated BS/Chem. There
> weren't any apologies. No apologies were required. Moo U had 40,000
> students at the time.
"Moo U" still has 40,000 students, and outputs only about 40 BS/Chems.
However, last year TAing became a Union job here. (The vote was pushed through
by the disproportionately large percentage of Socialist... I mean Sociology...
TA's) Now salaries for chemists and engineers are frozen. No more 7% raises per
year for us, untill all TA's are paid the same. My kids will be out of grad
school by the time that happens.
Meanwhile, the Union is looking out for our wellfare, trying to make sure we
don't work more than the 40 hrs per week we are paid for. Chemistry can't be
done at 40hrs a week. Also, the Union is arguing about how to decide who is a
competent TA. I have heard suggestions of using average class grade as a measure
(according to the union, the higher, the better). So in order to keep their
jobs, TA's will be encouraged to grade easily and let more people pass who don't
deserve to.
Luckily I will be out of here before my degree is totally useless, but it will
be sad for those left behind. Especially for the undergraduates, who will never
be evaluated based on performance again.
--
Matthew Comstock
50 Chemistry Bldg
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI, 48824
(517)-355-9715 x315
FAX: 517-353-1793
SNUMBER6
>"Moo U" still has 40,000 students, and outputs only about 40 BS/Chems.
>However, last year TAing became a Union job here. (The vote was pushed
>through
>by the disproportionately large percentage of Socialist... I mean
>Sociology...
>TA's) Now salaries for chemists and engineers are frozen. No more 7% raises
>per
>year for us, untill all TA's are paid the same. My kids will be out of grad
>school by the time that happens.
>
>Meanwhile, the Union is looking out for our wellfare, trying to make sure we
>don't work more than the 40 hrs per week we are paid for. Chemistry can't be
>done at 40hrs a week. Also, the Union is arguing about how to decide who is a
>competent TA. I have heard suggestions of using average class grade as a
>measure
>(according to the union, the higher, the better). So in order to keep their
>jobs, TA's will be encouraged to grade easily and let more people pass who
>don't
>deserve to.
>
>Luckily I will be out of here before my degree is totally useless, but it
>will
>be sad for those left behind. Especially for the undergraduates, who will
>never
>be evaluated based on performance again.
>--
very disturbing oservations ... Uncle Al's rants are quite often filled with
hyperbole (and hyperbolas also in a manner of speaking) ... but the facts and
implications you state are disturbing on their own ...
Uncle Al
>
> > When I attended Moo U 1969-1973, my first term organic lecture started
> > with
> >
> > "There are 1200 people enrolled in Majors organic chemistry. Next
> > term's first organic lab holds 400 people. At least 800 of you will
> > be failed." 385 made it into lab; 17 graduated BS/Chem. There
> > weren't any apologies. No apologies were required. Moo U had 40,000
> > students at the time.
>
> "Moo U" still has 40,000 students, and outputs only about 40 BS/Chems.
> However, last year TAing became a Union job here. (The vote was pushed through
> by the disproportionately large percentage of Socialist... I mean Sociology...
> TA's) Now salaries for chemists and engineers are frozen. No more 7% raises per
> year for us, untill all TA's are paid the same. My kids will be out of grad
> school by the time that happens.
Why should a Sociology TA who contributes nothing to the future and
requires little intelligence to do it (or a black History TA, or a
Wymyn's Studies TA - check out "Dissertation Abstracts/Liberal Arts")
get the same salary as a science/math/computer TA who creates the
future and has demonstrable objective intelligence requirements (check
out "Dissertation Abstracts/Sciences")? MoFA Oboe players are nice to
have around, but they exercise less utility than high school dropout
garbage collectors push come to shove. The engineers who designed the
garbage cans for inexpensive mass production are more important still.
Uncle Al was required to take non-science courses for his BS/Chem.
That consisted of sneaking registration into the highest numbered
silly classes, showing up three times/week up for ten weeks, getting
the highest grade in the class, and going away. One fondly remembers
an advanced Sociology class that required a term project - an
anonymous questionnaire about something or other. Everybody else did
grave social and educational issues by the book and got meager
responses. Uncle Al surveyed dorm toilet behavior, ("are you
uncomfortable in communal shower facilities?") affixing "a penny for
your thoughts" to the front of each questionnaire ("money makes the
world go 'round"). 73% return rate on 200 questionnaires. The prof
was stunned. Well, OK - the prof was also a product of his kind.
(Redheads are beseiged by comrades curious as to the color of their
pubic hair. This information was volunteered again and again.
Anybody want a Masters degree?)
Try sneaking untutored into an organic synthesis, ordinary
differential equations, optics, programming... class and making off
with the brass ring (or getting out alive with a pitiful 1.5). There
is an objective quantitative difference between the two types of
knowledge and the people who respectivley wield them. They are NOT
worth the same price. A wormy crappy "organic" apple commands a
higher price than a big perfect crisp and tart Granny Smith. This is
stooopidity. This is Liberal compassion. This is an army of darkness.
> Meanwhile, the Union is looking out for our wellfare, trying to make sure we
> don't work more than the 40 hrs per week we are paid for. Chemistry can't be
> done at 40hrs a week. Also, the Union is arguing about how to decide who is a
> competent TA. I have heard suggestions of using average class grade as a measure
> (according to the union, the higher, the better). So in order to keep their
> jobs, TA's will be encouraged to grade easily and let more people pass who don't
> deserve to.
Science and engineering are passions. It is an exquisite thing we
wreak. Fuck the bureaucrats. On those rare occasions when I
encountered a shining mind - and they are real hard to tolerate much
less like - there were no limits to support. It has been my
industrial experience that managers who really piss off the
laboratories have personal setbacks of one sort or another. In
Vietnam it was called "fragging."
Uncle Al gave out a few 0.0s in his time. Gardens must be pruned and
weeded as well as fertilized.
> Luckily I will be out of here before my degree is totally useless, but it will
> be sad for those left behind. Especially for the undergraduates, who will never
> be evaluated based on performance again.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public
relations, for nature cannot be fooled," Richard P. Feynman.
"You live and learn, or you don't live long," Robert A. Heinlein.
Mr. XXXX
news:me9v7.69457$6q.74...@typhoon.neo.rr.com:
>
>>Some schools are TOO difficult
>
> Eh ? So, I guess in the usual manner of U.S. approach to education, we
> should dumb down the courses even further?
First of all: I'm not from the US.
> At some point, bright students would be offered drugs, insulin shock
> and lobotomy as the officially approved ways to 'not stray ahead of the
> class'. What do you think the 'school counselor' will evolve into ?
I know from my personal experiences, that being 'better' (in some things)
is sometimes considered worse than being 'bad' in others.
Artem Evdokimov
My angry remark does not imply that you are, just that the U.S. seems to be
a 'global leader' in the field of 'constructive nondiscriminatory
positive-feedback-normalized proactive grading', or, in other words, dumbind
down the courses and the tests so that more lazy morons pass. I am sure that
other nations will follow.
> I know from my personal experiences, that being 'better' (in some things)
> is sometimes considered worse than being 'bad' in others.
Popular opinion isn't worth its weight in rotten cabbage. People love to
conform. Conformism usually involves games such as 'who's popular' or 'if I
behave like a dumbass, they will think I'm fun to play with'. Under normal
circumstances, the path of least resistance will not lead you to success. In
our progressively twisted world, it appears that licking boots and playing
along do indeed help to some extent. Keep in mind, however, that there is a
nonzero probability that Hell exists, and that the said hell is populated
solely by angry organic synthesis professors. If you are caught dead and
can't devise a synthesis of estradiol using tar, pitch and sinners' fat as
your only reagents then your soul is truly lost. Remember that when you are
Asked and you avert your eyes and mumble something about getting an
associate degree in morale engineering.
:)
Cheers,
A.
Mr. XXXX
>> First of all: I'm not from the US.
>
> My angry remark does not imply that you are, just that the U.S. seems
> to be a 'global leader' in the field of 'constructive nondiscriminatory
> positive-feedback-normalized proactive grading', or, in other words,
> dumbind down the courses and the tests so that more lazy morons pass. I
> am sure that other nations will follow.
Another tendency is that schools become harder and harder, and more and
more people are being rated 'lazy morons'.
> Popular opinion isn't worth its weight in rotten cabbage. People love
> to conform. Conformism usually involves games such as 'who's popular'
Nothing new to me. And many people don't like others who are 'different'.
Also, many schools are designed to teach 'average' kids. Noone is average,
everyone has strengths and weaknesses.
Artem Evdokimov
> more people are being rated 'lazy morons'.
Where is that ? I want my kids to study there. AFAIK, schools nowadays
require a minimum of heartbeat and borderline basic reflexes to pass.
> Nothing new to me. And many people don't like others who are 'different'.
> Also, many schools are designed to teach 'average' kids. Noone is average,
> everyone has strengths and weaknesses.
Mostly weaknesses. Exploit them and prosper. When everyone is graded in
between 'good' and 'excellent' (god forbid we offend someone!) then the
terms lose their meaning. The meek will inherit cable TV.
A.
fkasner
"Fred Thomas" <fr...@stellartron.com> wrote in message
news:MMjv7.7808$rq1.1...@atlpnn01.usenetserver.com...
> Artem Evdokimov <AEVDO...@cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:me9v7.69457$6q.74...@typhoon.neo.rr.com...
> building. On the walls were student-made posters decrying the evils of
> separating students by ability. I'd expect this kind of indoctrination in
> North Korean or Taliban schools, but here? I say we burn all education
> colleges to the ground and salt the earth.
>
>
I thought we had done that already. My guess was that we had because it
appears that the present crop of school teachers appear to be even dumber
than the previous one. I suspect that Uncle Al and his stupidity posse
militia has failed miserably in killing off the truly stupid ones.
FK
fkasner
"Uncle Al" <Uncl...@hate.spam.net> wrote in message
news:3BBDDDDE...@hate.spam.net...
Sorry Al, but I too am a product of NYC public schools. Even to the extent
of going to CCNY for the BS. Why because I was saving the GI BIll money for
grad school. When I graduated in '48 the U. of Chicago, small as it was and
still is accepted me as one of the 60 Chem grad students. I was one of only
13 who weren't dumped after getting the S.M. a year later. Yeah I didn't
earn a Nobel (other class mates did) but I did what I ended up wanting after
getting the Ph.D. there. I think the work ethic I developed at Townsend
Harris H.S. and at CCNY made all the later stuff relatively easy for me. I
was sometimes amazed myself at how easy it turned out to be (example I
studied only a total of 4 nights for the science French exam after not
having read a word of French since HS.) I'll brook no denigration of the
quality of the education in CCNY before they ruined it by open admission.
FK