Nickel (II) oxide and sulphamic acid.
Peter Fairbrother
I need some Nickel Sulphamate (for electroplating), but I can't find any
for sale here in the UK in suitably small quantities and at non-silly
prices.
I have some sulphamic ("sulfamic" to you Yanks!) acid, and can buy
nickel carbonate and nickel oxide, both are LR grade and the
nickel-content price is similar.
My question is, will sulphamic acid react with green nickel (II) oxide?
Under what conditions can I get reasonably pure nickel sulphamate?
I know the carbonate reacts, but it's nasty stuff, and carcinogenic
(maybe - it seems they got the definitive experiment wrong, but whether
they got it wrong enough that the result is in doubt is in doubt .. sort
of, but it seems even that is in doubt now!!)
anyway, I'd rather use the oxide if it's possible.
Thanks,
-- Peter Fairbrother
danger...@gmail.com
> Hi all,
>
> I need some Nickel Sulphamate (for electroplating), but I can't find any
> for sale here in the UK in suitably small quantities and at non-silly
> prices.
I don't recall sulfamic acid as being very strong. It may not dissolve
NiO or may do so very slowly. Try it. I'd feel more comfy starting
with the carbonate, but there may be foaming and the reaction would go
slowly.
Nickel is the 'carcinogen', not the carbonate, but it's a weak one.
You should be using gloves and goggles and working in a ventilated
hood or bench anyway.
DB
Peter Fairbrother
> On Jun 27, 2:58 pm, Peter Fairbrother <zenadsl6...@zen.co.uk> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I need some Nickel Sulphamate (for electroplating), but I can't find any
>> for sale here in the UK in suitably small quantities and at non-silly
>> prices.
>
> I don't recall sulfamic acid as being very strong.
No, but it's not that weak either - it dissolves rust for example. pKa
is about 1.
[in descending 1st pKa order: perchloric, hydrochloric, sulphuric,
nitric, trichloroacetic, sulfamic, oxalic, phosphoric, citric, acetic
... carbonic ...]
> It may not dissolve
> NiO or may do so very slowly. Try it. I'd feel more comfy starting
> with the carbonate, but there may be foaming and the reaction would go
> slowly.
If the oxide reacts I'd definitely prefer using it, but I know the
carbonate does work.
Trying it is a bit iffy though, I have to buy either the oxide or the
carbonate in sufficient quantity for all my needs at once.
I had hoped someone here might know if the NiO reaction worked, and how
well, before I spent any money!
Think I'll try the oxide though, if no-one else chirps up.
>
> Nickel is the 'carcinogen', not the carbonate, but it's a weak one.
"Everything is toxic, it depends on the dose".
Nickel carbonate, being much more mobile, is going to find it much
easier to get into the human body than nickel oxide.
I'm not sure how much insoluble NiO is carcinogenic - for instance
barium is toxic, but a barium meal or enema can contain a hundred grams
or more of insoluble barium sulphate, and the barium in it does a
patient little harm - whereas 100g of soluble barium chloride would kill
him many times over, if someone can be killed more than once.
> You should be using gloves and goggles and working in a ventilated
> hood or bench anyway.
Yes, or better.
-- Peter Fairbrother
Peter Fairbrother
> danger...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Jun 27, 2:58 pm, Peter Fairbrother <zenadsl6...@zen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I need some Nickel Sulphamate (for electroplating), but I can't find any
>>> for sale here in the UK in suitably small quantities and at non-silly
>>> prices.
>>
>> I don't recall sulfamic acid as being very strong.
>
> No, but it's not that weak either - it dissolves rust for example. pKa
> is about 1.
>
> [in descending 1st pKa order: perchloric, hydrochloric, sulphuric,
> nitric, trichloroacetic, sulfamic, oxalic, phosphoric, citric, acetic
> ... carbonic ...]
ass - cending. Doh!
Ron Jones
> danger...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Jun 27, 2:58 pm, Peter Fairbrother <zenadsl6...@zen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I need some Nickel Sulphamate (for electroplating), but I can't
>>> find any for sale here in the UK in suitably small quantities and
>>> at non-silly prices.
>>
>> I don't recall sulfamic acid as being very strong.
>
> No, but it's not that weak either - it dissolves rust for example. pKa
> is about 1.
>
> [in descending 1st pKa order: perchloric, hydrochloric, sulphuric,
> nitric, trichloroacetic, sulfamic, oxalic, phosphoric, citric, acetic
> ... carbonic ...]
>
>> It may not dissolve
>> NiO or may do so very slowly. Try it. I'd feel more comfy starting
>> with the carbonate, but there may be foaming and the reaction would
>> go slowly.
>
> If the oxide reacts I'd definitely prefer using it, but I know the
> carbonate does work.
>
> Trying it is a bit iffy though, I have to buy either the oxide or the
> carbonate in sufficient quantity for all my needs at once.
>
> I had hoped someone here might know if the NiO reaction worked, and
> how well, before I spent any money!
>
> Think I'll try the oxide though, if no-one else chirps up.
I would guess that the NiO is not so toxic as it doesn't dissolve - it's the
soluble nickel that's the problem, so once you get your solution...! You
also need to be careful with any waste - UK rules on chemical waste are a
minefield, you could soon end up with the EA and HSE on your back (that
leads to one of the reasons why you can't easily buy chemicals here - the
HASAWA puts a duty of care on us suppliers to protect people and the
environment)
--
Ron Jones
Process Safety & Development Specialist
Don't repeat history, unreported chemical lab/plant near misses at
http://www.crhf.org.uk Only two things are certain: The universe and
human stupidity; and I'm not certain about the universe. ~ Albert
Einstein
Peter Fairbrother
Indeed, that's my point.
> You
> also need to be careful with any waste - UK rules on chemical waste are a
> minefield, you could soon end up with the EA and HSE on your back
Possibly, but as the quantities are small - less than 1 kg nickel - and
as in general I'm a lot greener about waste than the regs say anyway, I
don't see that as a real problem.
And yes, I really am green about these things, no kidding - for
instance, last month I supplied some rather complex chemicals containing
copper.
[I don't usually get paid, or seek to get paid, for chemistry these days
except sometimes if eg it's for a rich artist. Being friends with the
rich can be expensive, that seems fair enough to me. If you aren't
someone I like, I won't do any chemistry for you. I do quite a bit of
chemistry-for-artists, some for rocketry people, and a little for
engineers. However 2x cost of raw materials is fair and keeps the supply
cupboard from getting empty, and I always charge that]
Point is, I also supplied waste control agents to precipitate the copper
from the waste liquor, and the tank to do it in, and told the client
where to put the solid waste (though he'd get nothing for it, but then
he wouldn't have to pay to dump it either - maybe I should have arranged
for him to be paid for the waste? Another time, he's not the type to
pour it down the drain).
And my real point is, I would not have supplied the copper-containing
stuff without also supplying the relevant waste control stuff. But maybe
I'm in an unusual position.
(that
> leads to one of the reasons why you can't easily buy chemicals here - the
> HASAWA puts a duty of care on us suppliers to protect people and the
> environment)
HASAWA '74? S.3?
In practice however the bulk of any actual limitations on availability
are really based on other concerns, and mostly they are based on general
supply issues like volume and price - almost everything is actually
available if you look hard enough, and if you are known.
There are some exceptions, but they are not sensible ones IMO, they are
more by accident and fashion than anything else.
For instance, poisons are supposedly hard-to-get, but in practice it
isn't impossible if you are known; more than one person I buy from has
offered to supply NaCN.
I've never needed it though, apart from once 30 plus years ago, and I
try to avoid using poisons as much as possible anyway, so I don't know
if they'd want me to sign the poisons register or whatever - do they
still have one of those?
Conc. nitric, conc. sulphuric, and glycerin/toluene are readily
available to make nitroglycerine/TNT if you are so minded - it's
probably harder to get KNO3 (!).
However hydrogen peroxide is almost impossible to get in higher
concentrations than 30%, and on a small scale 15% seems to be the
practical maximum, probably due to the "liquid bomb airplane threat" and
some US civil liability cases. Unless you go to Bengstsrom (sp?).. :)
Another hard-to-get one is diethyl ether, though that may be
drug-related not safety-related, like eg acetic anhydride - and also
maybe potassium permanganate (used in cocaine purification) - but these
are all available if you look hard enough.
I don't know about eg heroin itself, or something that's a more direct
drug precursor like ephedrine - but for the possibly-drug-related stuff
with other uses, in moderate quantities, it isn't usually that hard.
I think at one time "they" (who they?) were considering banning the sale
of isopropyl alcohol, because it's used in making sarin! Never mind that
if you had the other stuff needed you could make several other nerve
gases instead. However sense prevailed there, and IPA is now easily
available.
I think there is also a similar CBW-related story about acetone, but I
can't remember the details offhand. Boots sold acetone last year, but my
local one doesn't any more - however it's also lost it's pharmacy
licence for other reasons, and I don't know about Boots' in general. And
then there is always nail varnish remover ...
Plutonium now, that would be hard to get... but for most other things
the problem is more about finding them at non-silly prices than finding
them at all, especially if it's from a research supply place like
Goodfellow.
[ *great* catalogue btw, but _really_ silly prices! - also they sell
uranium btw, but as I've never bought anything from them and probably
never will, I have no idea whether they'd sell me any uranium. They used
to sell it at about $3,000 for a 1 kg piece, but they only seem to do
smaller pieces these days, for about the same price of course!
Uranium is of course also available from other suppliers, it's just an
example - and in today's day and age, you might well consider buying
your chemicals from Roumania, or even China. ]
-- Peter Fairbrother
Martin Brown
> Hi all,
>
> I need some Nickel Sulphamate (for electroplating), but I can't find any
> for sale here in the UK in suitably small quantities and at non-silly
> prices.
What do you call a non-silly price?
Johnson-Matthey have it in their Alfa reagent catalogue at around
�250/kg for 96% pure. A bit on the pricey side though...
I expect an electroplating shop could get it in bulk for a lot less but
depending on how you cost your time this may still be cost effective for
small amounts. (when compared to dissolving nickel oxide/carbonate to
make 1kg by hand)
>
> I have some sulphamic ("sulfamic" to you Yanks!) acid, and can buy
> nickel carbonate and nickel oxide, both are LR grade and the
> nickel-content price is similar.
>
> My question is, will sulphamic acid react with green nickel (II) oxide?
> Under what conditions can I get reasonably pure nickel sulphamate?
>
> I know the carbonate reacts, but it's nasty stuff, and carcinogenic
It is ingesting any nickel salts that you should be wary of. OTOH
soluble nickel ammonium sulphate used to be in childrens chemistry sets.
The fizz from the carbonate reaction may form an unwelcome aerosol.
>
> (maybe - it seems they got the definitive experiment wrong, but whether
> they got it wrong enough that the result is in doubt is in doubt .. sort
> of, but it seems even that is in doubt now!!)
>
> anyway, I'd rather use the oxide if it's possible.
May be a lot of work persuading it to dissolve safely rather than buying
it off the shelf. I am assuming here that the reagent suppliers will
sell to you.
Regards,
Martin Brown
Peter Fairbrother
> Peter Fairbrother wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I need some Nickel Sulphamate (for electroplating), but I can't find
>> any for sale here in the UK in suitably small quantities and at
>> non-silly prices.
>
> What do you call a non-silly price?
> Johnson-Matthey have it in their Alfa reagent catalogue at around
> �250/kg for 96% pure. A bit on the pricey side though...
Yes, that's what I call a silly price. I was thinking more like �25 for
one kg.
I already have 5 kg of sulphamic acid, which cost about �25, and for �15
I can buy more than enough nickel oxide or nickel carbonate for 1kg
product.
So �25 for one kg is not at all unreasonable, for �40 I can get a kg and
4 kg of sulphamic acid - and 6 kg would work out at about �16 per kilo -
and it'll be 99% pure, not 96%.
Ooops, 5 kg of sulphamic has now gone up to �28, so some small
adjustments in these figures may be required.
Ooops2, Alfa also do a 50% solution at �20 per litre, or �40 per kg, or
5l/2.5 kg for �90, or �36 per kg. Much less silly, but still a bit high.
>
> I expect an electroplating shop could get it in bulk for a lot less
Yes, medium quantity is about �6/kg.
> but depending on how you cost your time this may still be cost effective
> for small amounts.
Lessee: �225 for somewhere between ten minutes and an hours work...no, I
don't think buying it would be cost effective.
Spent some time talking here too, but that's faffing about really, and I
don't count it.
> (when compared to dissolving nickel oxide/carbonate to make 1kg by hand)
If the oxide works, it's almost no trouble at all to do. I have the
equipment, pH meter. protective gear etc. Even the carbonate fizz isn't
that hard to cope with.
I am assuming here that the reagent suppliers will
> sell to you.
They will.
-- Peter Fairbrother