Could we use endothermic(heat absorbing) reactions to reduce hurricane strength?
rgrego...@yahoo.com
strength over cool waters. Hurricanes typically need an ocean
temperature of about 80º F, 26º C, to form. This page shows the
cooler waters following Hurricane Bonnie caused Hurricane Danielle
following in Bonnie's wake to lose strength and dissipate:
What Lies Beneath a Hurricane.
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast11sep_1.htm
According to the graphic on this page, the temperature only had to be
reduced to about 75º F for this to occur.
So could we cover the expected hurricane path with chemicals that
produce a temperature reduction on mixing with water to reduce the
ocean temperature?
One of the most well-known chemicals with this property is ammonium
nitrate, NH4NO3, commonly used to make fertilizer. This temperature
reduction property also allows its use in instant cold packs.
According to this page 14 kg of ammonium nitrate could be used to
freeze 14 liters, 14 kg, of water:
Re: Making ice without machinery
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/jun99/929075573.Ch.r.html
The page calculates the amount of ammonium nitrate required to reduce
the temperature from 25º C to the freezing point but then notes an
additional amount of heat energy needs to be removed to induce the
phase change from liquid to solid.
If you only want to reduce the temperature from 25º C to 0º C, then
only about 1/4 the amount of NH4NO3 needed for freezing needs to be
used. And if you only need to cause a temperature reduction by about
3º C, the amount can be reduced further by a factor of 1/8th. So the
amount would be less than 1/30th that needed to induce freezing for
this low amount of temperature reduction.
There is a reason though why you might want to induce freezing. You
would want to keep the temperature reduced over the covered area for
some time so that the hurricane has time to dissipate. If the water
were frozen at the surface, then it would require some time for this to
melt. (BTW, the freezing point of seawater is only 2 degrees C less
than that of fresh water so this would require only minimally more
temperature reduction.)
The question is how much NH4NO3 would be required for this task? For
the freezing, about the same amount in weight as the water you wanted
to freeze. There are a couple of options for its placement. You could
try to freeze the surface water within the eye or you could freeze the
water in front of the hurricanes expected path.
I'll use an optimistic size of the eye as 10 km across, though for
some hurricanes the eye can be 3 to 4 times this size. So it would be
an area on the order of 100 square kilometers. How thick do you want
the ice? That depends on how quickly you would expect it to melt at the
26º C surrounding temperatures. I'll take as a guess for the thickness
of 1 cm. Then this is a volume of 10,000m x 10,000m x .01m = 1,000,000
m^3. This is 1,000,000 metric tons of water. Then it would require that
amount in weight of NH4NO3. The worldwide production of ammonium
nitrate is in the millions of tons per year so this would require a
significant proportion of that. But this is within the annual
production capacity of individual chemical plants:
Our Products - Terra Industries Inc.
http://www.terraindustries.com/our_products/intro.htm
So it is feasible if kept in storage until needed.
For transporting this amount, there are supertankers capable of
transporting hundreds of thousands of metric tons of crude oil. Less
than 10 would be sufficient to transport the required amount. The
ammonium nitrate would have to be sprayed at high speed to disperse it
over the required area.
It would require much less if you only wanted to decrease the
temperature 3 degrees C, perhaps only 30,000 metric tons for the same
volume of water. You would want this to be in very fine powder so would
rapidly mix with the water. A problem is the temperature would rapidly
rise from the surrounding water and air. What might be needed would be
some method of slow release to constantly keep the temperature lowered.
The packets containing the ammonium nitrate held within a slow release
fabric would also have to be buoyant so that the ammonium nitrate is
concentrated near the surface. However, the amount required might not
wind up to be significantly less than the freezing method because the
ammonium nitrate has to be continually supplied.
These were estimates for covering the surface water within the eye of
the hurricane. The eye is moving perhaps 10 km/hr and higher. At this
speed it would leave the covered area within an hour. Would this be
enough to dissipate the hurricane? Unknown.
The other possibility would be to cover the expected track ahead of
the hurricane. The front of the hurricane might be 100 km or more
across. For this to be feasible you would need a thinner region to
cover, say 100km by only 1 km. Then in this case the hurricane would
pass over this region even faster. But it is unknown which method,
covering the water within the eye or the water in front, would be more
effective in dissipating its strength.
Bob Clark
Uncle Al
>
> Hurricanes grow stronger over warm waters and correspondingly lose
> strength over cool waters. Hurricanes typically need an ocean
> temperature of about 80º F, 26º C, to form. This page shows the
> cooler waters following Hurricane Bonnie caused Hurricane Danielle
> following in Bonnie's wake to lose strength and dissipate:
>
> What Lies Beneath a Hurricane.
> http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast11sep_1.htm
>
> According to the graphic on this page, the temperature only had to be
> reduced to about 75º F for this to occur.
>
> So could we cover the expected hurricane path with chemicals that
> produce a temperature reduction on mixing with water to reduce the
> ocean temperature?
Cylinder of water 70 miles in radius and 25 feet deep. Cool from 90 F
to 70 F,
(pi)(112.65 km x 10^5)^2(7.62 meters x10^2)(11.11 C) --> 3.38x10^18
calories
3.38x10^18 calories = 1.41x10^19 joules = 3,378 megatonnes equivalent
Ya gonna absorb that energy with dissolving ammonium nitrate, git?
Cylinder of vegetable oil 70 miles in radius and 1 cm thick,
(pi)(112.65 km x 10^5)^2(1) = 4x10^14 cm^3 = 10^11 gallons
Gonna pour oil on troubled waters, git?
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
Will Janoschka
> rgrego...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > Hurricanes grow stronger over warm waters and correspondingly lose
> > strength over cool waters. Hurricanes typically need an ocean
> > temperature of about 80§ F, 26§ C, to form. This page shows the
> > cooler waters following Hurricane Bonnie caused Hurricane Danielle
> > following in Bonnie's wake to lose strength and dissipate:
> >
> > What Lies Beneath a Hurricane.
> > http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast11sep_1.htm
> >
> > According to the graphic on this page, the temperature only had to be
> > reduced to about 75§ F for this to occur.
> >
> > So could we cover the expected hurricane path with chemicals that
> > produce a temperature reduction on mixing with water to reduce the
> > ocean temperature?
> [snip crap]
>
> Cylinder of water 70 miles in radius and 25 feet deep. Cool from 90 F
> to 70 F,
>
> (pi)(112.65 km x 10^5)^2(7.62 meters x10^2)(11.11 C) --> 3.38x10^18
> calories
> 3.38x10^18 calories = 1.41x10^19 joules = 3,378 megatonnes equivalent
>
> Ya gonna absorb that energy with dissolving ammonium nitrate, git?
> Cylinder of vegetable oil 70 miles in radius and 1 cm thick,
>
> (pi)(112.65 km x 10^5)^2(1) = 4x10^14 cm^3 = 10^11 gallons
>
> Gonna pour oil on troubled waters, git?
>
Al again you are correct, but not very nice. Keep up the good work.
rgrego...@yahoo.com
Uncle Al wrote:
> rgrego...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > Hurricanes grow stronger over warm waters and correspondingly lose
> > strength over cool waters. Hurricanes typically need an ocean
> > temperature of about 80º F, 26º C, to form. This page shows the
> > cooler waters following Hurricane Bonnie caused Hurricane Danielle
> > following in Bonnie's wake to lose strength and dissipate:
> >
> > What Lies Beneath a Hurricane.
> > http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast11sep_1.htm
> >
> > According to the graphic on this page, the temperature only had to be
> > reduced to about 75º F for this to occur.
> >
> > So could we cover the expected hurricane path with chemicals that
> > produce a temperature reduction on mixing with water to reduce the
> > ocean temperature?
> [snip crap]
>
> Cylinder of water 70 miles in radius and 25 feet deep. Cool from 90 F
> to 70 F,
>
> (pi)(112.65 km x 10^5)^2(7.62 meters x10^2)(11.11 C) --> 3.38x10^18
> calories
> 3.38x10^18 calories = 1.41x10^19 joules = 3,378 megatonnes equivalent
>
Ice covered lakes and rivers only have a relatively small layer of ice
on top. You only need to lower the temperature for a shallow upper
layer.
Bob Clark
Jean-Paul Turcaud
dissipate the energy of high energy Hurricanes !
(... but not for the giving, due to all those Mining Criminals and their
Australian Political Criminal Backers in ambush or roaming all over the
place ! )
... and a very simple application of the True Geology indeed.
Very sorry not being able to help at the present time, but hoping gratitude
and recognition for service rendered to such Criminals ' Countries & the
people therein , is being both stupid & very naïve, as I have experimented
first hand !
With best regards
--
Jean-Paul Turcaud
Exploration Geologist
Founder of the True Geology
~~ Ignorance Is The Cosmic Sin, The One Never Forgiven ! ~~
"Uncle Al" <Uncl...@hate.spam.net> a écrit dans le message de news:
4335EEB8...@hate.spam.net...
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
> rgrego...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> Hurricanes grow stronger over warm waters and correspondingly lose
>>strength over cool waters. Hurricanes typically need an ocean
>>temperature of about 80º F, 26º C, to form. This page shows the
>>cooler waters following Hurricane Bonnie caused Hurricane Danielle
>>following in Bonnie's wake to lose strength and dissipate:
>>
>>What Lies Beneath a Hurricane.
>>http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast11sep_1.htm
>>
>> According to the graphic on this page, the temperature only had to be
>>reduced to about 75º F for this to occur.
>>
>> So could we cover the expected hurricane path with chemicals that
>>produce a temperature reduction on mixing with water to reduce the
>>ocean temperature?
>
> [snip crap]
>
> Cylinder of water 70 miles in radius and 25 feet deep. Cool from 90 F
> to 70 F,
>
> (pi)(112.65 km x 10^5)^2(7.62 meters x10^2)(11.11 C) --> 3.38x10^18
> calories
> 3.38x10^18 calories = 1.41x10^19 joules = 3,378 megatonnes equivalent
>
> Ya gonna absorb that energy with dissolving ammonium nitrate, git?
> Cylinder of vegetable oil 70 miles in radius and 1 cm thick,
>
> (pi)(112.65 km x 10^5)^2(1) = 4x10^14 cm^3 = 10^11 gallons
>
> Gonna pour oil on troubled waters, git?
Maybe we could use some kind of reversed nuke to suck out the heat and blast it
into space...
--
Dirk
The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org
Michael Moroney
>Uncle Al wrote:
>> > So could we cover the expected hurricane path with chemicals that
>> > produce a temperature reduction on mixing with water to reduce the
>> > ocean temperature?
>> [snip crap]
>>
>> Cylinder of water 70 miles in radius and 25 feet deep. Cool from 90 F
>> to 70 F,
>>
>> (pi)(112.65 km x 10^5)^2(7.62 meters x10^2)(11.11 C) --> 3.38x10^18
>> calories
>> 3.38x10^18 calories =3D 1.41x10^19 joules =3D 3,378 megatonnes equivalent
>>
> Ice covered lakes and rivers only have a relatively small layer of ice
>on top. You only need to lower the temperature for a shallow upper
>layer.
So how the heck are you going to cool a thin layer of water in seas being
churned by hurricane force winds mixing the water up? (Not to mention
the fact that unlike ice, the cooler water will be more dense and tend
to sink)
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
> Still, there does exist an easy, cheap & elegant solution to curb and
> dissipate the energy of high energy Hurricanes !
> (... but not for the giving, due to all those Mining Criminals and their
> Australian Political Criminal Backers in ambush or roaming all over the
> place ! )
>
> ... and a very simple application of the True Geology indeed.
>
> Very sorry not being able to help at the present time, but hoping gratitude
> and recognition for service rendered to such Criminals ' Countries & the
> people therein , is being both stupid & very naïve, as I have experimented
> first hand !
>
> With best regards
>
I too have a surefire way of stopping hurricanes.
However, I need one billion dollars placed in my bank account before I will
reveal the secret.
MeatyUrologist
self-fulfilling paranoid fucknut starving for attention". I think I remember
a movie like this not too long ago. The guy kills himself at the end. Hope
the grass is greener on the other side.
Uncle Al, excellent math. It's sad that at least 5 times every hurricane
season someone needs to rehash simple physics and volumetric calculations to
overcome the poorly thought out world-saving inventions of senseless fools.
Granted there are dozens of inventions every day in the world, but 99% end
up on the home shopping network and only about 1% are generated by true
scientific genius. Bob, if these were even remotely feasible solutions, they
would have been done long ago. Take the time to think through the math,
practicality, scalability and ecological results, and if the solution STILL
holds water (no pun intended)-- you might actually have a winner.
"Jean-Paul Turcaud" <mining_...@remove.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dh638i$gh5$1...@aphrodite.grec.isp.9tel.net...
Marvin
> Jean-Paul Turcaud wrote:
>
>> Still, there does exist an easy, cheap & elegant solution to curb and
>> dissipate the energy of high energy Hurricanes !
>> (... but not for the giving, due to all those Mining Criminals and
>> their Australian Political Criminal Backers in ambush or roaming all
>> over the place ! )
>>
>> ... and a very simple application of the True Geology indeed.
>>
>> Very sorry not being able to help at the present time, but hoping
>> gratitude and recognition for service rendered to such Criminals '
>>
>> With best regards
>>
>
> I too have a surefire way of stopping hurricanes.
> However, I need one billion dollars placed in my bank account before I
> will reveal the secret.
>
Borek
> 26º C surrounding temperatures. I'll take as a guess for the thickness
> of 1 cm. Then this is a volume of 10,000m x 10,000m x .01m = 1,000,000
> m^3. This is 1,000,000 metric tons of water. Then it would require that
> amount in weight of NH4NO3. The worldwide production of ammonium
Adding such an amount of fertilizer to sea water is asking for troubles.
It is just like fertilizers washed from fields being dangerous for lakes.
Best,
Borek
--
http://www.chembuddy.com - chemical calculators for labs and education
BATE - program for pH calculations
CASC - Concentration and Solution Calculator
pH lectures - guide to hand pH calculation with examples
Borek
<dirk....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Ya gonna absorb that energy with dissolving ammonium nitrate, git?
> Maybe we could use some kind of reversed nuke to suck out the heat and
> blast it into space...
Don't blast it, keep it for winter!
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
> On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 13:52:17 +0200, Dirk Bruere at Neopax
> <dirk....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Ya gonna absorb that energy with dissolving ammonium nitrate, git?
>
>
>> Maybe we could use some kind of reversed nuke to suck out the heat
>> and blast it into space...
>
>
> Don't blast it, keep it for winter!
OK then, we'll compromise and just blow up the entire hurricane.
Uncle Al
Ice doesn't convect by temperature or by density. Water convects both
by temperaure and density. You'd properly have to cool it all the way
down to the thermocline. Go head, run those numbers.
But wait! Suppose it were only 3 megatonnes of energy, a mere 0.1% of
the conservative Fermi estimate above! Are ya gonna absorb that with
dissolving ammonium nitrate, git?
--
Uncle Al
>
Hurricanes as Renewable Energy Resources. We'd run short of
hurricanes before the $billion studies were completed. Dr. Schund's
neutrino squeegee would do it, but that is a national security silver
bullet being saved for 2008 if the polity doesn't cast the right votes
in November.
Jean-Paul Turcaud
"Marvin" <phys...@cloud9.net> a écrit dans le message de news:
11jdrfe...@corp.supernews.com...
> Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:
>> Sir Jean-Paul Turcaud wrote:
>>
>>> Still, there does exist an easy, cheap & elegant solution to curb and
>>> dissipate the energy of high energy Hurricanes !
>>> (... but not for the giving, due to all those Mining Criminals and
>>> their Australian Political Criminal Backers in ambush or roaming all
>>> over the place ! )
>>>
>>> ... and a very simple application of the True Geology indeed.
>>>
>>> Very sorry not being able to help at the present time, but hoping
>>> gratitude and recognition for service rendered to such Criminals '
>>> Countries & the people therein , is being both stupid & very naïve, as
>>> I have experimented first hand !
>>>
>>> With best regards
>>>
>>
>> I too have a surefire way of stopping hurricanes.
>> However, I need one billion dollars placed in my bank account before I
>> will reveal the secret.
I, on the contrary will give it away for free
... as a service to Humanity and to my American friends.
Still there are some Mining Criminals such a Newmont, Newcrestn BHP and
Boral who will be behind bars before that happens.
... and that deal will be worked out on the highest level, by Bush, Howard
and Gallop.... with as well Tyrwhitt and Thomson behind bars too after a
good flogging ! !
--
Sir Jean-Paul Turcaud
Jean-Paul Turcaud
"Marvin" <phys...@cloud9.net> a écrit dans le message de news:
11jdrfe...@corp.supernews.com...
> Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:
>> Sir Jean-Paul Turcaud wrote:
>>
>>> Still, there does exist an easy, cheap & elegant solution to curb and
>>> dissipate the energy of high energy Hurricanes !
>>> (... but not for the giving, due to all those Mining Criminals and
>>> their Australian Political Criminal Backers in ambush or roaming all
>>> over the place ! )
>>>
>>> ... and a very simple application of the True Geology indeed.
>>>
>>> Very sorry not being able to help at the present time, but hoping
>>> gratitude and recognition for service rendered to such Criminals '
>>> Countries & the people therein , is being both stupid & very naïve, as
>>> I have experimented first hand !
>>>
>>> With best regards
>>>
>>
>> I too have a surefire way of stopping hurricanes.
>> However, I need one billion dollars placed in my bank account before I
>> will reveal the secret.
I, on the contrary will give it away for free
... as a service to Humanity and to my American friends.
Still there are some Mining Criminals such a Newmont, Newcrestn BHP and
Boral who will be behind bars before that happens.
... and that deal will be worked out on the highest level, by Bush, Howard
and Gallop.... with as well Tyrwhitt and Thomson behind bars too after a
good flogging !!!
--
Sir Jean-Paul Turcaud
Jean-Paul Turcaud
"Marvin" <phys...@cloud9.net> a écrit dans le message de news:
11jdrfe...@corp.supernews.com...
> Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:
>> Sir Jean-Paul Turcaud wrote:
>>
>>> Still, there does exist an easy, cheap & elegant solution to curb and
>>> dissipate the energy of high energy Hurricanes !
>>> (... but not for the giving, due to all those Mining Criminals and
>>> their Australian Political Criminal Backers in ambush or roaming all
>>> over the place ! )
>>>
>>> ... and a very simple application of the True Geology indeed.
>>>
>>> Very sorry not being able to help at the present time, but hoping
>>> gratitude and recognition for service rendered to such Criminals '
>>> Countries & the people therein , is being both stupid & very naïve, as
>>> I have experimented first hand !
>>>
>>> With best regards
>>>
>>
>> I too have a surefire way of stopping hurricanes.
>> However, I need one billion dollars placed in my bank account before I
>> will reveal the secret.
I, on the contrary will give it away for free
... as a service to Humanity and to my American friends.
Still there are some Mining Criminals such a Newmont, Newcrestn BHP and
Boral who will be behind bars before that happens.
... and that deal will be worked out on the highest level, by Bush, Howard
and Gallop.... with as well Tyrwhitt and Thomson behind bars too after a
good flogging !!!
--
Sir Jean-Paul Turcaud
Jean-Paul Turcaud
"Marvin" <phys...@cloud9.net> a écrit dans le message de news:
11jdrfe...@corp.supernews.com...
> Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:
>> Sir Jean-Paul Turcaud wrote:
>>
>>> Still, there does exist an easy, cheap & elegant solution to curb and
>>> dissipate the energy of high energy Hurricanes !
>>> (... but not for the giving, due to all those Mining Criminals and
>>> their Australian Political Criminal Backers in ambush or roaming all
>>> over the place ! )
>>>
>>> ... and a very simple application of the True Geology indeed.
>>>
>>> Very sorry not being able to help at the present time, but hoping
>>> gratitude and recognition for service rendered to such Criminals '
>>> Countries & the people therein , is being both stupid & very naïve, as
>>> I have experimented first hand !
>>>
>>> With best regards
>>>
>>
>> I too have a surefire way of stopping hurricanes.
>> However, I need one billion dollars placed in my bank account before I
>> will reveal the secret.
I, on the contrary will give it away for free
... as a service to Humanity and to my American friends.
Still there are some Mining Criminals such a Newmont, Newcrestn BHP and
Boral who will be behind bars before that happens.
... and that deal will be worked out on the highest level, by Bush, Howard
and Gallop.... with as well Tyrwhitt and Thomson behind bars too after a
good flogging !!!
--
Sir Jean-Paul Turcaud
Jean-Paul Turcaud
"Marvin" <phys...@cloud9.net> a écrit dans le message de news:
11jdrfe...@corp.supernews.com...
> Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:
>> Sir Jean-Paul Turcaud wrote:
>>
>>> Still, there does exist an easy, cheap & elegant solution to curb and
>>> dissipate the energy of high energy Hurricanes !
>>> (... but not for the giving, due to all those Mining Criminals and
>>> their Australian Political Criminal Backers in ambush or roaming all
>>> over the place ! )
>>>
>>> ... and a very simple application of the True Geology indeed.
>>>
>>> Very sorry not being able to help at the present time, but hoping
>>> gratitude and recognition for service rendered to such Criminals '
>>> Countries & the people therein , is being both stupid & very naïve, as
>>> I have experimented first hand !
>>>
>>> With best regards
>>>
>>
>> I too have a surefire way of stopping hurricanes.
>> However, I need one billion dollars placed in my bank account before I
>> will reveal the secret.
I, on the contrary will give it away for free
... as a service to Humanity and to my American friends.
Still there are some Mining Criminals such a Newmont, Newcrestn BHP and
Boral who will be behind bars before that happens.
... and that deal will be worked out on the highest level, by Bush, Howard
and Gallop.... with as well Tyrwhitt and Thomson behind bars too after a
good flogging !!!
--
Sir Jean-Paul Turcaud
Jean-Paul Turcaud
"Marvin" <phys...@cloud9.net> a écrit dans le message de news:
11jdrfe...@corp.supernews.com...
> Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:
>> Sir Jean-Paul Turcaud wrote:
>>
>>> Still, there does exist an easy, cheap & elegant solution to curb and
>>> dissipate the energy of high energy Hurricanes !
>>> (... but not for the giving, due to all those Mining Criminals and
>>> their Australian Political Criminal Backers in ambush or roaming all
>>> over the place ! )
>>>
>>> ... and a very simple application of the True Geology indeed.
>>>
>>> Very sorry not being able to help at the present time, but hoping
>>> gratitude and recognition for service rendered to such Criminals '
>>> Countries & the people therein , is being both stupid & very naïve, as
>>> I have experimented first hand !
>>>
>>> With best regards
>>>
>>
>> I too have a surefire way of stopping hurricanes.
>> However, I need one billion dollars placed in my bank account before I
>> will reveal the secret.
I, on the contrary will give it away for free
... as a service to Humanity and to my American friends.
Still there are some Mining Criminals such a Newmont, Newcrestn BHP and
Boral who will be behind bars before that happens.
... and that deal will be worked out on the highest level, by Bush, Howard
and Gallop.... with as well Tyrwhitt and Thomson behind bars too after a
good flogging !!!
--
Sir Jean-Paul Turcaud
Jean-Paul Turcaud
"Marvin" <phys...@cloud9.net> a écrit dans le message de news:
11jdrfe...@corp.supernews.com...
> Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:
>> Sir Jean-Paul Turcaud wrote:
>>
>>> Still, there does exist an easy, cheap & elegant solution to curb and
>>> dissipate the energy of high energy Hurricanes !
>>> (... but not for the giving, due to all those Mining Criminals and
>>> their Australian Political Criminal Backers in ambush or roaming all
>>> over the place ! )
>>>
>>> ... and a very simple application of the True Geology indeed.
>>>
>>> Very sorry not being able to help at the present time, but hoping
>>> gratitude and recognition for service rendered to such Criminals '
>>> Countries & the people therein , is being both stupid & very naïve, as
>>> I have experimented first hand !
>>>
>>> With best regards
>>>
>>
>> I too have a surefire way of stopping hurricanes.
>> However, I need one billion dollars placed in my bank account before I
>> will reveal the secret.
I, on the contrary will give it away for free
... as a service to Humanity and to my American friends.
Still there are some Mining Criminals such a Newmont, Newcrestn BHP and
Boral who will be behind bars before that happens.
... and that deal will be worked out on the highest level, by Bush, Howard
and Gallop.... with as well Tyrwhitt and Thomson behind bars too after a
good flogging !!!
--
Sir Jean-Paul Turcaud
john.s...@aspenresearch.com
Website. http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/tcfaq/C5c.html
(The "cool the water" option is also discussed too:
http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/tcfaq/C5e.html )
John
Aspen Research, - www.aspenresearch.com
"Turning Questions into Answers"
Opinions expressed herein are my own and may not represent those of my
employer.
rgrego...@yahoo.com
The key fact is you don't have to cool 25 feet. Just the upper
surface. Let's call it 1 cm. The 25 ft. estimate results in a number
25 ft * 30cm/ft = 750 too high. The temperature drop I'm assuming is
also only 5 degrees F, not 20 F, based on an actually observed case
where a hurricane dissipated after a temperature drop of only 5 F. So
his estimate is an additonal factor of 4 too high. Then the estimate
should be less by a factor of 3000 or .47 x10^16 joules, 4.7 x 10^12
kilojoules. Ammonium nitrate can remove 350 kJ of heat per kilogram:
Re: Making ice without machinery
"Ammonium nitrate is a commonly available nitrogen fertilizer. It is
very soluble. 1 kg of
ammonium nitrate will dissolve in 1 litre of water. It will remove
about
28 kJ of heat from the surroundings per mole of ammonium nitrate, which
works out at 350 kJ per kg of ammonium nitrate..."
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/jun99/929075573.Ch.r.html
So you would need (4.7x10^12)/350 = 14.3 x 10^9 kg of ammonium
nitrate, 14 million metric tons. But notice he is also using a much
larger area than would be necessary, a 70 mile radius. I assumed only a
10 km across area. This results in only 2.8 x10^5 kg, 280 metric
tons. This is actually in the range that could be carried by the
largest cargo transport aircraft. The ammonium nitrate could be sprayed
from the air on the area that needed to be covered, actually following
the path of the hurricane.
Bob Clark
rgrego...@yahoo.com
> ....
> So you would need (4.7x10^12)/350 = 14.3 x 10^9 kg of ammonium
> nitrate, 14 million metric tons. But notice he is also using a much
> larger area than would be necessary, a 70 mile radius. I assumed only a
> 10 km across area. This results in only 2.8 x10^5 kg, 280 metric
> tons. This is actually in the range that could be carried by the
> largest cargo transport aircraft. The ammonium nitrate could be sprayed
> from the air on the area that needed to be covered, actually following
> the path of the hurricane.
>
>
> Bob Clark
Correction: a radius of 70 miles is 112 km, for a diameter of 224 km.
This is larger than the 10 km diameter I was using by a factor of 22.4.
So his estimate for the square area is larger by a factor of 22.4^2 =
501.76. Then the ammonium nitrate required would be smaller by this
factor so 28,000 metric tons. This is about 100 times larger than could
be carried by a single transport aircraft.
Bob Clark
Michael Moroney
>> > 3.38x10^18 calories =3D 1.41x10^19 joules =3D 3,378 megatonnes equivale=
> The key fact is you don't have to cool 25 feet. Just the upper
>surface. Let's call it 1 cm.
So we await your answer. How the hell are you going to make a 1cm thick
layer of cooled surface water and keep it at the surface in hurricane-
whipped seas, idjit?
rgrego...@yahoo.com
The plan is to spread the coolant on the surface within the eye or
ahead of the planned track, where the seas and the winds are
significantly reduced.
It might still work to spread the coolant onto the surface within the
high wind, rough sea region if you use a buoyant, slow release
formulation where even if the there is great exchange between the
surface and lower, warmer waters, the water that reaches the surface is
also cooled by the coolant.
Bob Clark
Scott
> Michael Moroney wrote:
>
>>rgrego...@yahoo.com writes:
>>
>>
>>>>>3.38x10^18 calories =3D 1.41x10^19 joules =3D 3,378 megatonnes equivale=
>>
>>>The key fact is you don't have to cool 25 feet. Just the upper
>>>surface. Let's call it 1 cm.
>>
>>So we await your answer. How the hell are you going to make a 1cm thick
>>layer of cooled surface water and keep it at the surface in hurricane-
>>whipped seas, idjit?
>
>
> The plan is to spread the coolant on the surface within the eye or
> ahead of the planned track, where the seas and the winds are
> significantly reduced.
Exactly how do the large seas generated by the
winds outside the eye magically subside in the,
oh, 20 minutes, as the eye passes?
> It might still work to spread the coolant onto the surface within the
> high wind, rough sea region if you use a buoyant, slow release
> formulation where even if the there is great exchange between the
> surface and lower, warmer waters, the water that reaches the surface is
> also cooled by the coolant.
How much surplus coolant have you on hand for
the inevitable storm that will change directions?
Scott
rgrego...@yahoo.com
well-known fact about hurricanes.
Hurricanes themselves despite their high winds travel rather slowly,
perhaps 10-30 km/hr.
If you had a supertanker dispersing the coolant you could have it
follow along within the eye or it could precede ahead of it within its
predicted track.
Bob Clark
St. John Smythe
> If you had a supertanker dispersing the coolant you could have it
> follow along within the eye or it could precede ahead of it within its
> predicted track.
Any other technical obstacles aside, the moment the supertanker in the
eye was unable to keep up with the storm's forward motion, it would be
S.O.L. (short on luck).
Scott
The winds, yes, are calmer. But the seas are not.
Towering waves that are generated by the winds outside
the eye do not just magically disappear when they
enter the eye.
A supertanker *could* follow the eye of a hurricane.
But at what point does the supertanker exit the storm?
You could wait for an eyewall replacement cycle, I suppose,
and then make a run for it. Forgive me if I don't
sign up for *that* detail, though.
Scott
Androcles
"Uncle Al" <Uncl...@hate.spam.net> wrote in message
news:4336FB81...@hate.spam.net...
[snip crap]
Psychotic ineducable boring spammer Alan Schwartz,
the royal fuckwit, "Uncle Al" <Uncl...@hate.spam.net>
mumble some crap in message
news:421CA8D5...@hate.spam.net...
> Why are you having so much trouble with basic algebra?
> Let L_1 = distance light travels in going from Sam to Joe, as
> measured in the stationary frame.
> 1) L_1 = cL/(c-v)
What a right royal stooopid motherfucker.
See the peeing puppy moortel, he'll not be glad to add
you to his list of truly IMMORTAL fumbles. I will, though.
[quote]
we establish by definition that the "time" required by a turtle to
travel
from A to B equals the "time" it requires to travel from B to A.
[end quote]
Ref: http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/
[quote]
For velocities greater than that of a turtle our deliberations become
meaningless; we shall, however, find in what follows, that the velocity
of a turtle in our theory plays the part, physically, of an infinitely
great velocity.
[quote]
Ref: http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/
Nothing can go faster than a turtle.
Oops!... Did I say 'a turtle'? Sorry...'light'.
Androcles
Androcles
[snip crap]
The Chinee told you to fuck off, eh?
Does it burn, stooopid, does it burn?
Renewable...@gmail.com
let's pretend there is no mixing in the ocean and that everything is
perfectly calm during a hurricane (excellent assumptions no?). Alright
now we have a 1 cm think layer of water at 20C and the rest of the
depth at 25C (compared to the 1 cm that is 20C, the amount of water
below it at 25C might as well be infinite for this little exercise).
I will assume no heat is transferred from air to water (another
excellent and good assumption!). Let's see how fast we lose this
critical temperature difference.
The temperature at the surface of the ocean is the most critical so we
can think of this cool layer as trying to maintain 20C at the surface
of the ocean. Therefore, the DeltaT is 5C, the difference in T between
the bulk ocean and the surface.
The thermal conductivity of water is roughly 0.6J/(s-m-C). The
thickness of the layer is Delta-x = 0.01m. We will consider this
problem using unit area of 1m^2 (we will assume this is an infinite
plane of cool water, a reasonable assumption for an area somewhere not
at the edge of your cooled ocean area).
The heat flux is given by Q = (k/Delta-x)*A*DeltaT = (0.6/0.01)*1*5 =
300 J/s. (you can check it yourself, the units work out propoerly - i
was lazy and didnt want to type them again).
Alright so we have heat flowing at 300 J/s. As the temperature
difference drops (i.e. the temp of the surface rises), Q also drops
linearly with the drop in DeltaT. Let us use 150 J/s as an average
over a large part of this temperature rise at the surface.
The amount of heat it takes to raise the temp of that water by 5C is
given by (specific heat)*(mass)*(deltaT)
energy needed = 4.19 J/(g-C)*(.01m*1m^2*1000000g/m^3)*(5C) = 209500 J
Now at 150 J/s this says our water will be roughly heated in 209500/150
s =~ 1400 s =~ 23.5 min.
So you will loose your deltaT in less than 25 min assuming perfectly
calm water, no heat transfer through the air, no mixing in the water,
and my crazy simple model that assumes your 1 cm heats identically all
the way through (as the water in that 1 cm layer heats, the surface
will heat more and more rapidly as the water near it warms - and finite
element model [or finite difference] here would help alot). Lets think
about a hurricane for a moment here: huge waves, extremely turbulent
water, high winds whipped the water around - the mixing in the water
itself would kill your cool layer in a matter of seconds (when you put
ice cubes in a container with water and shake it around, you will melt
the ice faster than if you take that same volume of water, put the same
amount of ice in it and heat it over a flame). I'd say plan on cooling
down to a rather deeper depth than 1 cm - like maybe a couple hundred
feet and pray that they are no currents down there to sweep your cool
water a couple hundred miles away.
Let me know how it goes - and don't kill ALL the fish if you help it.
And give me a heads up - if we are going to do this, let me set up my
ammonium nitrate plant!
rgrego...@yahoo.com
I'm going to use the same amount of ammonium nitrate for the same
amount of water to be frozen, I might as well just transport the ice.
Would this hold as well for just lowering the temperature rather than
freezing? That is if 30,000 tons of ammonium nitrate would lower
1,000,000 tons of water 5 degrees F, then would 30,000 tons of ice at
freezing also lower the temperature of 1,000,000 tons of water by 5
degrees F? Can you calculate this case?
If so, or if the amounts are comparable, then this might provide a
more environmentally benign means of accomplishing the same thing.
There are cargo transport ships called container ships that can
transport up to 100,000 tons of cargo in standard-sized containers.
They can travel in the range of 50 km/hr. Here's an image of one:
LIONS GATE BRIDGE.
http://www.shipphoto.net/lions%20gate%20bridge.htm
These containers are often refrigerated for transporting perishables.
Then we would freeze the ice ahead of time (it would take time to
freeze this much ice) and keep the ship on dock fully loaded with ice
until needed.
At 50 km/hr the ship could travel 1200 km in 24 hours. We usually have
2 to 3 days warning of when a hurricane will hit. So these ships should
be able to intercept the hurricane before they reach land.
As you see from the photo, these ships are rather unwieldly, so it's
unlikely they could survive travelling through the high winds to dump
the ice within the hurricane eye. We would have to use the method of
placing the ice in front of the planned track of the hurricane.
We can probably increase the effectiveness by lowering the temperature
of the ice even further. For example, the temperature of liquid
nitrogen at 77 K is easily achieved and maintained with refrigeration.
Then we can keep the water ice in the containers at this temperature.
This is a factor of 3.5 lower than the freezing point of water on the
Kelvin scale so the amount of ocean water whose temperature we can
lower should also be increased by that factor.
The advantage of this proposal is that the container ships with
refrigerated containers are already in operation so we could implement
this like tomorrow. One problem though is that the heavy lift cranes
for moving these containers are kept on shore, not on ship. So we would
need to have an accompanying ship or ships with heavy crane capability.
Bob Clark
A Espinoza
> On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 01:51:45 +0200, <rgrego...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> 26º C surrounding temperatures. I'll take as a guess for the thickness
>> of 1 cm. Then this is a volume of 10,000m x 10,000m x .01m = 1,000,000
>> m^3. This is 1,000,000 metric tons of water. Then it would require that
>> amount in weight of NH4NO3. The worldwide production of ammonium
>
>
> Adding such an amount of fertilizer to sea water is asking for troubles.
> It is just like fertilizers washed from fields being dangerous for lakes.
>
> Best,
> Borek
Yup, with that amount of fertilizer, the resulting algae bloom will kill
all the fish within hundredss of miles.
rgrego...@yahoo.com
> ...
> The heat flux is given by Q = (k/Delta-x)*A*DeltaT = (0.6/0.01)*1*5 =
> 300 J/s. (you can check it yourself, the units work out propoerly - i
> was lazy and didnt want to type them again).
>
> Alright so we have heat flowing at 300 J/s. As the temperature
> difference drops (i.e. the temp of the surface rises), Q also drops
> linearly with the drop in DeltaT. Let us use 150 J/s as an average
> over a large part of this temperature rise at the surface.
>
> The amount of heat it takes to raise the temp of that water by 5C is
> given by (specific heat)*(mass)*(deltaT)
>
> energy needed = 4.19 J/(g-C)*(.01m*1m^2*1000000g/m^3)*(5C) = 209500 J
>
> Now at 150 J/s this says our water will be roughly heated in 209500/150
> s =~ 1400 s =~ 23.5 min.
>.
>.
> I'd say plan on cooling
> down to a rather deeper depth than 1 cm - like maybe a couple hundred
> feet and pray that they are no currents down there to sweep your cool
> water a couple hundred miles away.
>
You see that the heat flux has the thickness in the denominator while
the amount of heat is linearly dependent on mass which is density *
area * thickness. So the amount of heat has thickness in the numerator.
Then when you calculate the amount of time by dividing the amount of
heat by the heat flux you see this is dependent on the square of the
thickness. So a layer only 10 cm, 4 inches, thick would last 10^2 = 100
times as long as a 1 cm thick layer or 23.5*100 = 2350 minutes, about
40 hours.
Another surprising thing is that the temperature difference DeltaT
cancels out when you calculate the length of time. So it wouldn't get
better by making the layer cooler.
- Bob
rgrego...@yahoo.com
If you are going to use a cooling reaction (there are several besides
that of ammonium nitrate) you may want to keep the material insides
packets as done with instant cooling packs. For example on the page I
cited, this was the method suggested to produce ice when the
electricity was out:
Re: Making ice without machinery
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/jun99/929075573.Ch.r.html
In this case of course you don't want the drinkable water to come in
contact with the coolant material.
You would need to connect these packets together with strong light
fibers so after use they could be collected so as not to create a
pollution problem themselves.
Bob Clark
rgrego...@yahoo.com
achieved by using ice in warm water:
Cooling a Cup of Coffee.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/coocof2.html#c3
It uses the equation for calculating the amount of heat gained or lost
versus the temperature change according to the specific heat of the
material: heat gained or lost = (specific heat)*mass*(delta
temperature). It notes that when using ice, you also have to take into
account the extra heat lost for the phase change from ice to liquid,
the latent heat of fusion, 80 cal/gm for water:
"Cooling a Cup of Coffee
You have a 200 gram cup of coffee at 100ºC, too hot to drink. How much
will you cool it by adding 50 gm of ice at 0ºC?
Heat lost by coffee = Heat gained by ice
-Qcoffee = Qice
-c*mc*delta-Tcoffee = mi*Lf +c*mi*deltaTice
(1 cal/gm ºC)(200 gm)(100-Tf) = (50 gm)(80 cal/gm) + (1 cal/gm ºC)(50
gm)(Tf -0)
20,000 - 200*Tf = 4,000 +50*Tf
(20,000-4,000)/250 = Tf =64ºC"
The calculation is saying the coffee and the water(ice) are going to
be brought to some common temperature Tf. The heat gained by the ice is
first the latent heat of fusion to melt the ice, then on top of that
there is heat gained to bring the now liquid water from 0ºC to Tf.
I want to adapt this to a case where the ice is introduced at a much
lower temperature. I'll use -200ºC. This is a slightly lower than the
temperature for liquid nitrogen and is easily achieved with
refrigeration techniques. Let mi be the mass of the ice, and let the
mass of water you want to cool be larger by a factor of k, so k*mi.
I'll let the water be originally at 25ºC. I'll need as well the
specific heat of ice. This is actually about half the specific heat of
liquid water, .5 cal/gm ºC. Then on the ice side of the equation, I'll
calculate the heat gained by the ice in bringing it from -200ºC to
0ºC, plus the latent heat of fusion in melting the ice, plus the heat
gained in bringing the former ice now liquid water from 0ºC to the
final temperature Tf. And on the water side, I'll just have the heat
lost in bringing the water down from 25ºC to the final temperature Tf:
(1 cal/gm ºC)*k*mi*(25-Tf) = (.5 cal/gm ºC)*mi*200 + mi*(80 cal/gm) +
(1 cal/gm ºC)(Tf-0)
The mi cancels out to give:
k*(25-Tf) = 100 + 80 + Tf = Tf + 180.
So k = (Tf + 180)/(25 - Tf). This gives how much more water can be be
chilled to the temperature Tf starting with the water at 25ºC and the
ice at -200ºC. Then for a 5ºC temperature drop for the water this
would be Tf = 20ºC and k = 200/5 = 40, i.e., the ice could chill 40
times as much water as the ice carried. For a 100,000 ton capacity
container ship this would correspond to 4,000,000 tons of water chilled
or a 20km by 20 km by 1 cm thick volume or a 10km by 10km by 4cm thick
volume.
However, a problem would be insuring that the ice was only chilling
the surface layer for the greatest surface area to be chilled. Perhaps
the ice could be distributed in thin flakes or small cubes so that it
would melt quickly near the surface.
Bob Clark