Ethanol subsidies
aqueou...@my-deja.com
ethanol and MBTE mutually exclusive as products?
Any thoughts?
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Before you buy.
Uncle Al
>
> Do you think that federal ethanol subsidies are a good thing? And are
> ethanol and MBTE mutually exclusive as products?
>
> Any thoughts?
You are a troll. The cleverness of a $(US)0.57/gallon direct Federal
fuel ethanol subsidy plus indirect tax write-offs; plus farm subsidies
to grow the corn in the first place plus being a net negative energy
fuel would not escape anybody with a sufficient number of neurons to
require use of the plural.
PAN-NATIONAL INTERMINABLE DROUGHT!
RECORD CORN AND SOYBEAN HARVESTS!
Somebody is lying.
Uncle Al says, "If ethanol is a disaster (economic, engineering) and
MTBE is an even bigger disaster (biological, engineering), shouldn't
we go for the hat trick with mandated branched ketone addition to
gasoline?" (Sorry P&G, no Olestra in diesel.) Next stop is
dimethylaniline, and we have it all.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
http://www.ultra.net.au/~wisby/uncleal/
http://www.guyy.demon.co.uk/uncleal/
(Toxic URLs! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" The Net!
BAJJERFAN
competing with that from petrchemical sources. The growing of corn to convert
to ethanol causes more pollution than it prevents. It doesn't require
fertilizer and herbicides to pump oil from the ground.
Uncle Al
The *amortized* cost of pumping Saudi Sweet oil at the wellhead is
about $(US)1.00/bbl. There is a certain explicit profit margin
attendant to oil at $35/bbl. This is why a caribou preserve the size
of Montana which is a literal underground sea of oil at the extreme
northeast corner of Alaska should be drilled.
Screw the Arabs and screw their American political henchmen. Screw
the caribou too - though judging from the Prudhoe Bay pipeline's
effects, a nice giant warm windbreak would merely boost their numbers
and perceived state of happiness.
Ed McBride
> the caribou too - though judging from the Prudhoe Bay pipeline's
> effects, a nice giant warm windbreak would merely boost their numbers
> and perceived state of happiness.
Absolutely. I was with Arco R & D when the some of the pipeline design
work was performed. The environmentalists assured us we would kill all
the caribou because they wouldn't migrate properly, etc. Last I heard
they love it, and are flourishing nicely. Of course, these same people
assure us that the thermal effluent from every new power plant will kill
all the fish within a zillion miles, and I seem to see lots of fisherman
doing really well just downstream of the discharge, where the fish
apparently love to congregate. Ed
Uncle Al
Civilization knows what it is doing. (This is not to be confused with
Canada sterilizing the planet's most productive fishery, the Grand
Banks; or Russia grinding itself into compost. We're talking Pax
Americana. How good is First World civilization? DENTISTRY. The
meek shall inherit the Earth, and Hell with it.)
Lloyd R. Parker
: Screw
: > the caribou too - though judging from the Prudhoe Bay pipeline's
: > effects, a nice giant warm windbreak would merely boost their numbers
: > and perceived state of happiness.
:
: Absolutely. I was with Arco R & D when the some of the pipeline design
: work was performed. The environmentalists assured us we would kill all
: the caribou because they wouldn't migrate properly, etc. Last I heard
: they love it, and are flourishing nicely. Of course, these same people
: assure us that the thermal effluent from every new power plant will kill
: all the fish within a zillion miles, and I seem to see lots of fisherman
: doing really well just downstream of the discharge, where the fish
: apparently love to congregate. Ed
:
If the water is hotter, it can hold less oxygen. Water with less oxygen
can support fewer fish. Perhaps the fishermen like it there because the
fish die and are easier to catch.
SNUMBER6
>Of course, these same people
>assure us that the thermal effluent from every new power plant will kill
>all the fish within a zillion miles, and I seem to see lots of fisherman
>doing really well just downstream of the discharge, where the fish
>apparently love to congregate.
In the New York waters there are two terrific fishing grounds for big fish ...
one is called the acid waters and the other is the mud hole ... anyone want to
guess how they got their names ???
In addition, a phosphate dumping area in Long Island Sound developed into a
prime fishing area once phosphates were banned on Long Island ... and the sewer
pipe outlet from Staten Island is also a prime fishing hole ...
This is not a pro pollution argument ...just showing that at times even
pollution can have beneficial effects ...
After all fish do seem to survive in over 90 % concentrations of that evil
chemical Dihydrogen Oxide ... known to kill thousands of humans each year by
oxygen deprivation ...
In the Village ....
I am not a number ... I am a free man !!!!
Ed McBride
> : Absolutely. I was with Arco R & D when the some of the pipeline design
> : work was performed. The environmentalists assured us we would kill all
> : the caribou because they wouldn't migrate properly, etc. Last I heard
> : assure us that the thermal effluent from every new power plant will kill
> : all the fish within a zillion miles, and I seem to see lots of fisherman
> : doing really well just downstream of the discharge, where the fish
> :
> :
>
> If the water is hotter, it can hold less oxygen. Water with less oxygen
> can support fewer fish. Perhaps the fishermen like it there because the
> fish die and are easier to catch.
In theory, yes, but the temperature rise of the cooling-water discharge
is ususally limited to something like 20 deg F above the inlet
temperature, and the dissolved oxygen content of water near ambient
temperatures does not change radically over a 20 deg range. I'm not a
biologist, but I suspect there are lots of little flora and fauna that
grow much better in the water warmer and provide a wonderful feeding
ground. Ed
Lloyd R. Parker
:
: > : Absolutely. I was with Arco R & D when the some of the pipeline design
:
But the reason why power plants have to build those huge cooling towers
was to avoid discharging hot water back into the river. When something
goes wrong and the hot water is sent to the river, we see massive fish
kills.
Ed McBride
Of course, these same people
> : > : assure us that the thermal effluent from every new power plant will kill
> : > : all the fish within a zillion miles, and I seem to see lots of fisherman
> : > : doing really well just downstream of the discharge, where the fish
> : > : apparently love to congregate. Ed
> : > If the water is hotter, it can hold less oxygen. Water with less oxygen
> : > can support fewer fish. Perhaps the fishermen like it there because the
> : > fish die and are easier to catch.
> :
> : In theory, yes, but the temperature rise of the cooling-water discharge
> : is ususally limited to something like 20 deg F above the inlet
> : temperature, and the dissolved oxygen content of water near ambient
> : temperatures does not change radically over a 20 deg range. I'm not a
> : biologist, but I suspect there are lots of little flora and fauna that
> : grow much better in the water warmer and provide a wonderful feeding
> : ground. Ed
> But the reason why power plants have to build those huge cooling towers
> was to avoid discharging hot water back into the river. When something
> goes wrong and the hot water is sent to the river, we see massive fish
> kills.
I believe you are wrong. The reason why they build those huge cooling
towers is because they are not located on an ocean, river, lake,
orcooling pond. If they are, they generally pump zillions of gallons of
water through the condenser cooling coils, and discharge the waste heat
through the temperature rise of that water. However, if they don't have
that much water available, as here in Colorado Springs, they build
cooling towers. The ones with the huge plumes of water vapor are wet,
they allow the heated water to cascade down over trays (sort of like
louvers) with large fans forcing air upwards. The waste heat is
discharged through evaporation. Note that this requires about 2 % as
much water usage, 20 Btu/lb for sensible heating vs. 1000 Btu/lb latent
heat of evaporation. There are also dry towers, but I believe there are
not nearly as many, as they have to use indirect cooling from the air
stream and are very large and very expensive; I think it was one of
these that failed a while back during construction at TVA and killed a
bunch of workers.
Ed
Lloyd R. Parker
:
: Of course, these same people
: > : > : assure us that the thermal effluent from every new power plant will kill
: > : > : all the fish within a zillion miles, and I seem to see lots of fisherman
: > : > : doing really well just downstream of the discharge, where the fish
: > : > : apparently love to congregate. Ed
:
: > : > If the water is hotter, it can hold less oxygen. Water with less oxygen
: > : > can support fewer fish. Perhaps the fishermen like it there because the
: > : > fish die and are easier to catch.
: > :
: > : In theory, yes, but the temperature rise of the cooling-water discharge
: > : is ususally limited to something like 20 deg F above the inlet
: > : temperature, and the dissolved oxygen content of water near ambient
: > : temperatures does not change radically over a 20 deg range. I'm not a
: > : biologist, but I suspect there are lots of little flora and fauna that
: > : grow much better in the water warmer and provide a wonderful feeding
: > : ground. Ed
:
: > But the reason why power plants have to build those huge cooling towers
: > was to avoid discharging hot water back into the river. When something
: > goes wrong and the hot water is sent to the river, we see massive fish
: > kills.
:
: I believe you are wrong. The reason why they build those huge cooling
: towers is because they are not located on an ocean, river, lake,
: orcooling pond. If they are, they generally pump zillions of gallons of
: water through the condenser cooling coils, and discharge the waste heat
: through the temperature rise of that water. However, if they don't have
Nope. EPA requires them to cool that waste water back down before
discharging it into rivers, and that requires the cooling towers.
Don Wilkins
wrote:
>,;Ed McBride (emcb...@wybron.com) wrote:
>,;:
>,;: Of course, these same people
>,;: > : > : assure us that the thermal effluent from every new power plant will kill
>,;: > : > : all the fish within a zillion miles, and I seem to see lots of fisherman
>,;: > : > : doing really well just downstream of the discharge, where the fish
>,;: > : > : apparently love to congregate. Ed
>,;:
>,;: > : > If the water is hotter, it can hold less oxygen. Water with less oxygen
>,;: > : > can support fewer fish. Perhaps the fishermen like it there because the
>,;: > : > fish die and are easier to catch.
>,;: > :
>,;: > : In theory, yes, but the temperature rise of the cooling-water discharge
>,;: > : is ususally limited to something like 20 deg F above the inlet
>,;: > : temperature, and the dissolved oxygen content of water near ambient
>,;: > : temperatures does not change radically over a 20 deg range. I'm not a
>,;: > : biologist, but I suspect there are lots of little flora and fauna that
>,;: > : grow much better in the water warmer and provide a wonderful feeding
>,;: > : ground. Ed
>,;:
>,;: > But the reason why power plants have to build those huge cooling towers
>,;: > was to avoid discharging hot water back into the river. When something
>,;: > goes wrong and the hot water is sent to the river, we see massive fish
>,;: > kills.
>,;:
>,;: I believe you are wrong. The reason why they build those huge cooling
>,;: towers is because they are not located on an ocean, river, lake,
>,;: orcooling pond. If they are, they generally pump zillions of gallons of
>,;: water through the condenser cooling coils, and discharge the waste heat
>,;: through the temperature rise of that water. However, if they don't have
>,;
>,;Nope. EPA requires them to cool that waste water back down before
>,;discharging it into rivers, and that requires the cooling towers.
Nope. There are thousands of geese here in northern Minnesota
wintering on open water where this "cooled back down" water is
discharged into rivers that would be frozen over without the added
warm water.
Whether it is hot or warm is a judgement call but it does change the
environment as there is enough added heat to prevent freezing.
Lloyd R. Parker
: On 22 Aug 2000 10:50:06 -0400, lpa...@emory.edu (Lloyd R. Parker)
Well here (Georgia) the EPA mandates cooling towers so warm water isn't
discharged into waterways.
:
: Whether it is hot or warm is a judgement call but it does change the
: environment as there is enough added heat to prevent freezing.
:
Which upsets the ecology.
alc...@cornelis.bega
wrote:
> Screw
>> the caribou too - though judging from the Prudhoe Bay pipeline's
>> effects, a nice giant warm windbreak would merely boost their numbers
>> and perceived state of happiness.
>
>Absolutely. I was with Arco R & D when the some of the pipeline design
>work was performed. The environmentalists assured us we would kill all
>the caribou because they wouldn't migrate properly, etc. Last I heard
>they love it, and are flourishing nicely. Of course, these same people
>assure us that the thermal effluent from every new power plant will kill
>all the fish within a zillion miles, and I seem to see lots of fisherman
>doing really well just downstream of the discharge, where the fish
>apparently love to congregate. Ed
>
>
(changing threads somewhat...)
I used to work at Baldwin Power Station in Baldwin, IL. That 1800 MW
plant had a 2000 acre cooling lake that stayed hot all year round. The
state managed it as a conservation area and it had to be the best
fishing there ever was. I used to watch 6 foot catfish swim up from
the depths to swallow shad minnow in front of the water intakes. The
company biologist would shock up state record bass every time he did
his annual fish census.
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