Conclusion: Statement of Claim Nov 1 2002
J.William Dell
As the time frame and conditions for the return of Planet X/Niburu as
given by the "Zeta" from Nancy Lieder have not occurred, it is time
for the statement of claim of November 1st 2002 filed on this message
board to be declared invalid.
As the proponent in the debate between Enterprise2002 and myself in
October 2002,it is my duty to recognize and declare that the Statement
of Claim submitted does not stand, based on the evidence.
Whatever was being imaged during the time frame of Sept 2002 to March
2003, was not the alledged Planet X/Niburu as given by Nancy
Lieder/Zeta as it has not, in the final outcome, fulfilled the
conditions as stated.
http://www.zetatalk.com/index/psdate.htm
No object has arrived in the vicinity of Earth matching the
description of Planet X/Niburu causing any significant earth rotation
slow down as of this date May 21 2003.
Observations May 18 to May 21 2003
122 W 53 N 8:35 AM PDT
http://www.zetabc.com/jwd/sun.htm
As stated in the original debate;
" As time will quickly prove the issue, there is no need for a vote. "
That time has now passed, and the outcome is known.
In closing;
Many have taken positions in this debate,
and tempers were raised at times.
To those I have offended, I sincerely apologize.
And from this experience, emerge a wiser man.
J.William Dell
Appended:
Original Statement of Claim Nov 1 2002
STATEMENT OF CLAIM
LET IT BE KNOWN;
WHEREAS;
In the debate contained under thread "Planet X debate Enterprise2002
vs J.William Dell" the following points have been won by the
concession of my opponent.
1) This debate is occurring at the appropriate time in the proper
forum. The claims made by Nancy Lieder, where discountable before Sept
21, 2002 have now become of pressing interest and issue, needing
rational discussion and some type of determination by this body and
the world in general.
2) That extraterrestrial species do exist and would introduce
themselves, if government did not introduce them sooner, after the
time of a poleshift, predicted to occur in 2003.
http://www.zetatalk.com/govmt/g00.htm
3) That a poleshift of Planet Earth would occur in 2003, due to the
return of the planet called Planet X or 10 by our scientists, Called
Niburu and Marduk by our ancestors.
http://www.zetatalk.com/poleshft/p00.htm
4) In its wisdom, the US Government has followed a different path, and
hid this information from both its public, and its elected
representatives. And continues to do so.
And WHEREAS;
In the debate contained under thread "Planet X debate Enterprise2002
vs J.William Dell",
1) We are here to debate the issues raised by the CCD imaging taken,
of astronomic coordinates, given by a claimed telepath, Nancy Lieder,
on behalf of another species, called Zeta who communicate by empathic
or telepathic method.
2) Empathic communication requires relating of common elements of
culture. Through the work of the telepath Nancy Lieder over a seven
year period accumulating data from answers given by the Zeta to
questions asked from people all over the world. The Zeta have
developed a library of information that is now available for the
population of Earth to read and explore. Through this understanding
gained from the information available at www.zetatalk.com the Zeta
believe that Earth's citizens will be better prepared to culturally
identify with the Zeta culture and begin peaceful interaction.
And WHEREAS;
1) The Zeta have provided specific coordinates and details regarding
Planet X or Niburu. They have provided further predictions that can be
seen at http://www.zetatalk.com/poleshft/p00.htm regarding its
location, passage, and effects.
2) The images of Sept. 21 2002 , Oct 4 2002, and Oct. 11 2002, taken
by telescope and available at
http://www.zetatalk.com/teams/tteam342.htm are an attempt to both
prove the existence of Planet X or Niburu, and through that proof, the
existence of the source of the coordinates, the Zeta.
And WHEREAS;
In the debate contained under thread "Planet X debate Enterprise2002
vs J.William Dell" , the following point has been won by the
concession of my opponent.
Based on summary image picking up object, refraction angle change due
to distance covered over last 12 days, predicted movement by Zeta,
earth position at time of imaging, and on looking for most intense red
object on film. I conclude that the new Image of Planet X of Oct.
4,2002 is located just above the Sept. 21,2002 PX location as seen on
the Summary images of the two dates.
http://www.midbc.com/personal/jwd/Composite%20of%20Planet%20XFrame1Source1.htm
THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED;
1) The Zeta, and no other source, have provided times and coordinates
for the approach of Planet X or Niburu, who's approach has been proven
in the images taken by Steve Havas on Sept. 21, 2002, and Oct. 4,
2002.
2) Planet X or Niburu is now confirmed by the fact of it having been
imaged on three different occasions in the coordinate area specified
by the Zeta.
3) The existence and imaging of Planet X or Niburu at the place and
time indicated, has now proven the existence of the source of that
information, The Zeta.
Notarized by placing in Google Archives under thread " Zeta Statement
of Claim "
Delivered this day November 1, 2002
Sean Golden
jak...@midbc.com (J.William Dell) wrote:
<snipped some probably less than tasty crow being eaten>
> Many have taken positions in this debate,
> and tempers were raised at times.
> To those I have offended, I sincerely apologize.
> And from this experience, emerge a wiser man.
>
> J.William Dell
>
I sincerely hope you did emerge a wiser man. I once told either you or
Steve Havas that I hoped you had the courage to admit your error, and if
you did so and were truly interested in astronomy for rational and
reasonable reasons, I would welcome you to the amateur astronomy
community. So I do so now. Hopefully the main thing you gained from
your unfortunate association with a schizophrenic nutcase is that the
universe is a beautiful and mystifying place, but that much of it is
understandable and careful observation using sound scientific principles
has taught us incredible things, with yet more incredible things to
come. There is no need to make up things, the universe is astounding
enough on its own, verifiable, merits.
And it's just plain beautiful too.
Please feel free to post your observing sessions here and to join in on
our discussions.
But be careful, consider yourself on probation for now.
; )
-sdg
david.p...@noluncheonmeat.btinternet.com
>Regarding: Zeta Statement of Claim filed on Sci.Astro Nov. 1 2002
>
>As the time frame and conditions for the return of Planet X/Niburu as
>given by the "Zeta" from Nancy Lieder have not occurred, it is time
>for the statement of claim of November 1st 2002 filed on this message
>board to be declared invalid.
>
>As the proponent in the debate between Enterprise2002 and myself in
>October 2002,it is my duty to recognize and declare that the Statement
>of Claim submitted does not stand, based on the evidence.
Well done JWD! It takes courage to stand up and admit you were wrong.
If you want to understand the Universe, and all the wonderful things
in it, keep going with your new found interest in astronomy and
imaging, and you'll find a lot of people here happy to encourage you
and give you advice. It's a very rewarding hobby, and astronomers are
on the whole a great bunch of people.
Remember that the Universe is often stranger than we expect and full
of surprises, but they all have to obey the laws of nature (which,
even if human science doesn't fully understand, we've got a pretty
good grip on).
DP
--
Nattering Nabob #1 of the MOHSG
(alpha version of .sig)
O'Brother
"J.William Dell" <jak...@midbc.com> wrote in message
news:b18a2f40.03052...@posting.google.com...
> Regarding: Zeta Statement of Claim filed on Sci.Astro Nov. 1 2002
>
> As the time frame and conditions for the return of Planet X/Niburu as
> given by the "Zeta" from Nancy Lieder have not occurred, it is time
> for the statement of claim of November 1st 2002 filed on this message
> board to be declared invalid.
>
>
> In closing;
>
> Many have taken positions in this debate,
> and tempers were raised at times.
> To those I have offended, I sincerely apologize.
> And from this experience, emerge a wiser man.
>
> J.William Dell
>
>
>
>
> Appended:
> Original Statement of Claim Nov 1 2002
>
> STATEMENT OF CLAIM
> LET IT BE KNOWN;
>
> WHEREAS;
> In the debate contained under thread "Planet X debate Enterprise2002
> vs J.William Dell" the following points have been won by the
> concession of my opponent.
>
> Notarized by placing in Google Archives under thread " Zeta Statement
> of Claim "
> Delivered this day November 1, 2002
Even in failure you're a windbag. All of your claims have been invalidated
and it doesn't take ten pages of legalese to justify it. You were wrong,
you bought into and supported a Kook scam. You also aren't off the hook
with respect to the repeated claims you've made to support Nancy and I would
suppose you are as culpable as her. I truly hope some barrister shows up at
your door so you can understand how irresponsible you are. It's not some
role playing game, it's called life.
Sorry, can't undo what's been done bubba.
O'
DrPostman
wrote:
>Many have taken positions in this debate,
>and tempers were raised at times.
>To those I have offended, I sincerely apologize.
>And from this experience, emerge a wiser man.
>
>J.William Dell
Wow, at least one of you has the integrity to own up to
it. But why are you still supporting Nancy with your TT-Watch
posts?
I will give you lots of credit for this.
--
Dr.Postman USPS, MBMC, BsD; "Disgruntled, But Unarmed"
Member,Board of Directors of afa-b, SKEP-TI-CULT® member #15-51506-253.
You can email me at: eckles(at)midsouth.rr.com
"The services provided by Sylvia Browne Corporation are highly
speculative in nature and we do not guarantee that the results
of our work will be satisfactory to a client."
-Sylvia's Refund Policy
Fin Fahey
Kudos to you for admitting to being in the wrong. It takes some doing.
But questions:
Do you still think that Planet X and the Pole Shift will happen, but at some
later date?
Will you be leaving these web pages (http://www.zetabc.com/jwd/) online?
Surely they are misleading the public? Removing them would indicate proof of
your good intentions?
Do you still adhere to the Zetatalk precepts and dogma?
--
Fin
-------------------------------------------------------------
fin@albédo.demon.co.uk
Skep-ti-cult® member #488-28303-790
Don't let the coming End of the World get you down!
Visit www.zetatalk.co.uk for all your Planet X humour requirements
'Free games for May/See-ee-ee Nancy play' (Apologies to the Floyd)
Grand Vizier without portfolio with special skulking privileges
when not being Nattering Nabob #2, MOHSG
-------------------------------------------------------------
(please Tippex out the acute accent to reply)
John Oliver
> Regarding: Zeta Statement of Claim filed on Sci.Astro Nov. 1 2002
>
> As the time frame and conditions for the return of Planet X/Niburu as
> given by the "Zeta" from Nancy Lieder have not occurred, it is time
> for the statement of claim of November 1st 2002 filed on this message
> board to be declared invalid.
>
> As the proponent in the debate between Enterprise2002 and myself in
> October 2002,it is my duty to recognize and declare that the Statement
> of Claim submitted does not stand, based on the evidence.
>
> Whatever was being imaged during the time frame of Sept 2002 to March
> 2003, was not the alledged Planet X/Niburu as given by Nancy
> Lieder/Zeta as it has not, in the final outcome, fulfilled the
> conditions as stated.
You repeatedly attacked me as I tried to show you that, your experience
with photographic process not withstanding, you were not experienced
enough with the analysis of digital images to properly analyze them. I
carefully illustrated that the "objects" you were analyzing were not
imaged objects but rather were well known effects common in CCD
operation. Nothing in this current statement ("Whatever was being
imaged ...") indicates that you have realized that I was correct and
that you were wrong in attacking me.
enterprise2002
> Regarding: Zeta Statement of Claim filed on Sci.Astro Nov. 1 2002
>
> As the time frame and conditions for the return of Planet X/Niburu as
> given by the "Zeta" from Nancy Lieder have not occurred, it is time
> for the statement of claim of November 1st 2002 filed on this message
And what exactly did you sacrifice in all this JW?
Bet you'll sleep well and comfortable in your bed while others
struggle to stay alive faced with the loss and reality of the
deception you, Nancy and all the other Zeta disciples perpetrated.
Live long and prosper Mr Dell the nightmare may have only just begun.
Brian (Angel Isle)
RDK
[snip]
Mr. Dell:
Some credit is to be passed your way for admitting that you were wrong
(that's much more than I can say for Nance). However, my question to you is:
Why were you initially taken in by all this bunk, anyway?
Greenhalgh
Takes a big man to do so so hats off to you sir!
Now, if only Nancy could let go of her dreams of worldwide destruction
and a 90% population shrinkage... :D
etok
>
> As the time frame and conditions for the return of Planet X/Niburu as
> given by the "Zeta" from Nancy Lieder have not occurred, it is time
> for the statement of claim of November 1st 2002 filed on this message
> board to be declared invalid.
>
> As the proponent in the debate between Enterprise2002 and myself in
> October 2002,it is my duty to recognize and declare that the Statement
> of Claim submitted does not stand, based on the evidence.
>
> Whatever was being imaged during the time frame of Sept 2002 to March
> 2003, was not the alledged Planet X/Niburu as given by Nancy
> Lieder/Zeta as it has not, in the final outcome, fulfilled the
> conditions as stated.
> http://www.zetatalk.com/index/psdate.htm
>
> No object has arrived in the vicinity of Earth matching the
> description of Planet X/Niburu causing any significant earth rotation
> slow down as of this date May 21 2003.
Sociopath seeks to restore credibility.
Film at 11.
______________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>
sts060
>
> As the time frame and conditions for the return of Planet X/Niburu as
> given by the "Zeta" from Nancy Lieder have not occurred, it is time
> for the statement of claim of November 1st 2002 filed on this message
> board to be declared invalid.
>
> As the proponent in the debate between Enterprise2002 and myself in
> October 2002,it is my duty to recognize and declare that the Statement
> of Claim submitted does not stand, based on the evidence.
Congratulations! Being able to admit an error is one of the marks of
a scientist. Now, enjoy astronomy. Avoid elaborate conspiracy
theories.
Just one thing - this isn't really a place for formal forensics. If
you want to issue a challenge to debate something, just follow the
Kzin method: "You scream and you leap."
Similarly for conceding: Just say - "whoops, I was wrong. Here's what
I learned..."
Sarah Mc
> " As time will quickly prove the issue, there is no need for a vote. "
>
> That time has now passed, and the outcome is known.
>
> In closing;
>
> Many have taken positions in this debate,
> and tempers were raised at times.
> To those I have offended, I sincerely apologize.
> And from this experience, emerge a wiser man.
>
> J.William Dell
>
Apology accepted.
Now that you've admitted the error to us, it would benefit you
immensely if you also apologized to the readers of TT-watch for
assisting in the perpetration of this hoax.
Liberlegis
> Regarding: Zeta Statement of Claim filed on Sci.Astro Nov. 1 2002
>
> As the time frame and conditions for the return of Planet X/Niburu as
> given by the "Zeta" from Nancy Lieder have not occurred, it is time
> for the statement of claim of November 1st 2002 filed on this message
> board to be declared invalid.
>
You're still wrong! The "time frame and conditions" HAVE occurred,
it's Planet X that hasn't!
You could have just said: "I was wrong, and I am sorry".
Volker Hetzer
Give him a rest. He's embarassed enough anyway.
Greetings!
Volker
--
While it is a known fact that programmers
never make mistakes, it is still a good idea
to humor the users by checking for errors at
critical points in your program.
-Robert D. Schneider, "Optimizing INFORMIX
Applications"
Padraig Houlahan
>
> No object has arrived in the vicinity of Earth matching the
> description of Planet X/Niburu causing any significant earth rotation
> slow down as of this date May 21 2003.
>
>
>
> Appended:
> Original Statement of Claim Nov 1 2002
>
> STATEMENT OF CLAIM
> LET IT BE KNOWN;
>
> WHEREAS;
Let me see if I understand this.
You expect us to give you an attaboy for integrity even though you
a) ignored severe criticisms of your atrocious image processing techniques,
b) refused to accept the more mundane and reasonable explanations
that you were seeing image defects rather than PX,
c) ignored criticisms that the objects you circled as "moons"
were so faint (comparable to mag 19 stars) that they couldn't
possibly be consistent with simultaneous binocular "observations"
d) ignored the absurd "zeta physics" that was compellingly disproven
repeatedly
e) ignored the sleazy "evidence" posted by nancy such as repeatedly
showing finder charts in an area supposedly reserved for "proof,"
her intermixing images of sundogs with others in an attempt
to pad the volume of observations, not to mention the appalling
lack of images from you team since April.
The abysmal lack of evidence and the outrageous quality of the
kook observations were more than sufficient to discard Nancy's
claims.
And now, because only the most outlandish one can't be covered over
(rotation stoppage) you decide to throw in the towel? If this claim wasn't
part of the deal, there is no indication whatsoever that you'd have
a problem with the rest of the nonsense.
Are you going to delete the drivel and other pseudoscientific
nonsense from your personal website in the light of you becoming "wiser?"
Until then, your pompous assertions of having become wiser are
merely self-serving and mis-leading.
Mike Stefanik
>Now that you've admitted the error to us, it would benefit you
>immensely if you also apologized to the readers of TT-watch for
>assisting in the perpetration of this hoax.
I don't want to start a massive debate over semantics, but I would like to
point out that I don't think that ZT is a "hoax". To me, that means that the
principals involved are intentionally deceiving others for some reason
(financial gain, notoriety, etc.) I believe that many of those folks, Nancy
included, actually believe what they are saying (and reportedly seeing), and
belief is a powerful thing. It can cloud judgement, and make one vulnerable
to the kind of group-think that reinforces that belief system to the
exclusion of all evidence to the contrary. Of course, it doesn't make those
beliefs valid, but it can make them real to the believer.
scannell
that collectivity to demonstrate the unlikelihood of a hoax. Nancy is
perpetuating the hoax by any standard. She is obviously coning everyone and
she is a mean spirited cuss too if you have ever bothered to take note.
scannell
"Mike Stefanik" <mst...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:8l7qcvcu6dgdq2l80...@4ax.com...
Mike Stefanik
wrote:
>Many of the people are depending on the veracity of Nancy so you cannot use
>that collectivity to demonstrate the unlikelihood of a hoax. Nancy is
>perpetuating the hoax by any standard. She is obviously coning everyone and
>she is a mean spirited cuss too if you have ever bothered to take note.
I don't discount the fact that she's openly hostile to people who challenge
her beliefs. But I still get the impression that she still believes in what
she's been shovelling. But, hey, I guess I could be wrong and I'm just being
overly generous.
Dave Barlow
<f...@albedo.no-spam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Will you be leaving these web pages (http://www.zetabc.com/jwd/) online?
>Surely they are misleading the public?
Click on that link and you get,
"This website has been archived
For further information
Contact
J.William Dell
Jak...@midbc.com"
So bravo.
Chosp
I suspect that the consensus here would be that you are indeed being
overly generous.
scannell
explain some problems I had with her non-zeta views that I felt were not
only wrong but mean spirited. I asked her to explain to me the discrepancy
so I could continue to consider her a person of good will. Well her
response certainly sealed the question for me. I think she has a screw
loose with "Cain Mutiny" complex.
scannell
"Mike Stefanik" <mst...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1i9qcvcl77fqthg0r...@4ax.com...
Rockyfeller
> Regarding: Zeta Statement of Claim filed on Sci.Astro Nov. 1
> 2002
<snip>
> To those I have offended, I sincerely apologize.
> And from this experience, emerge a wiser man.
>
> J.William Dell
>
Good, so far...............
>
> STATEMENT OF CLAIM
> LET IT BE KNOWN;
>
> WHEREAS;
<snip some kooky sophomoric pseudolegalese fantasy>
>
> Notarized by placing in Google Archives under thread " Zeta
> Statement of Claim "
> Delivered this day November 1, 2002
Can't quite screw up the courage to just say, "You were correct, and
I was horribly, absolutely, thunderously wrong about the very
hypothesis and 'science' of these beliefs."? It's all a matter of
the predicted evidence and effects not occurring, but not the non-
existence of the object? Not the supremacy of science over
'alternative', unproven pseudoscience? Even in apology, you manage
to remain mealy-mouthed.
Sorry, I may sound like a mean old man, but from your less than
forthright apology:
I just see a rat scampering towards the gangway, ready to board the
next Ship of Fools.
We'll see you again, unfortunately.
Rocky
Fin Fahey
news:nbaqcv80bogtd8gbq...@4ax.com...
Yes!!! In Solidarnosc for this I have snipped my sig. This is like your
English VE-day, not?
--
Fin
-------------------------------------------------------------
fin@albédo.demon.co.uk
Skep-ti-cult® member #488-28303-790
Fin Fahey
news:baiosm$43s$1...@dackel.pdb.sbs.de...
> Liberlegis wrote:
> > jak...@midbc.com (J.William Dell) wrote in message
> > news:<b18a2f40.03052...@posting.google.com>...
> >
> >> Regarding: Zeta Statement of Claim filed on Sci.Astro Nov. 1 2002
> >>
> >> As the time frame and conditions for the return of Planet X/Niburu as
> >> given by the "Zeta" from Nancy Lieder have not occurred, it is time
> >> for the statement of claim of November 1st 2002 filed on this message
> >> board to be declared invalid.
> >>
> >
> > You're still wrong! The "time frame and conditions" HAVE occurred,
> > it's Planet X that hasn't!
> >
> > You could have just said: "I was wrong, and I am sorry".
> Hey, it's his idea of a face saving exit. So what. You've won.
> Give him a rest. He's embarassed enough anyway.
>
Yes. I agree - we won. Now how to get a regular newsgroup back?
Michael L Cunningham
> Regarding: Zeta Statement of Claim filed on Sci.Astro Nov. 1 2002
>
> 2003, was not the alledged Planet X/Niburu as given by Nancy
> Lieder/Zeta as it has not, in the final outcome, fulfilled the
> conditions as stated.
> http://www.zetatalk.com/index/psdate.htm
>
> No object has arrived in the vicinity of Earth matching the
> description of Planet X/Niburu causing any significant earth rotation
> slow down as of this date May 21 2003.
>
> Observations May 18 to May 21 2003
> 122 W 53 N 8:35 AM PDT
> http://www.zetabc.com/jwd/sun.htm
>
> As stated in the original debate;
> " As time will quickly prove the issue, there is no need for a vote. "
>
> That time has now passed, and the outcome is known.
>
> In closing;
>
> Many have taken positions in this debate,
> and tempers were raised at times.
> To those I have offended, I sincerely apologize.
> And from this experience, emerge a wiser man.
>
> J.William Dell
I thought you were a professional image processor Dell.
Somehow, my "gut" feeling and unwrapped starburst tells
me not to believe a word you say.
--
Michael L. Cunningham
AED Assault Team - www.aedcentral.com
Infinite Creationz - Southern California
Just one of the Dawgs... www.dawgslife.com
2001 Grand Am GT http://www.n-body.net/registry/bogeystar/
e-mail boge...@earthlink.net
web site http://home.earthlink.net/~bogeystar/
Remembering the World Trade Center Massacre
Sept. 11, 2001
Cry Havoc! ...and let slip the dogs of war!
Proud member of the...
Mystical Order of the Holy Space Goat...
"Sir Michael of the Hot Pixel" Master at arms
& Cult throne room key keeper
and the Official Zetatalk Debunking Sci.Astro Team!!!
Visit the LX50 Web Site and join in our Discussion Forum!
"There are two infinite things: universe and human stupidity.
And I'm not sure of the former".
Albert.
Liberlegis
> > jak...@midbc.com (J.William Dell) wrote in message
> > news:<b18a2f40.03052...@posting.google.com>...
> >
> >> Regarding: Zeta Statement of Claim filed on Sci.Astro Nov. 1 2002
> >>
> >> As the time frame and conditions for the return of Planet X/Niburu as
> >> given by the "Zeta" from Nancy Lieder have not occurred, it is time
> >> for the statement of claim of November 1st 2002 filed on this message
> >> board to be declared invalid.
> >>
> >
> > You're still wrong! The "time frame and conditions" HAVE occurred,
> > it's Planet X that hasn't!
> >
> > You could have just said: "I was wrong, and I am sorry".
> Hey, it's his idea of a face saving exit. So what. You've won.
> Give him a rest. He's embarassed enough anyway.
>
> Greetings!
> Volker
I do beg your pardon for correcting his (continuing) inaccuracies!
JimDandy
mst...@earthlink.net says...
I don't think you're necessarily wrong about that, Mike. Her behaviour
is, by all accounts, pretty typical of the "true believers" I've talked
to over the years, (particularly those of the eschatological stripe).
The kind of cognitive dissonance these beliefs generate seems to have an
intensely emotional effect on them.
A good book dealing with this kind of phenomena: "Apocalypse, On the
Psychology of Fundamentalism in America" by Charles B. Strozier. He
interviewed members of several groups who hold beliefs similar to that of
ZetaNancy. While I don't agree with all of his conclusions, I think he
rightly points out the emotional toll that the maintence of apocalyptic
thinking takes on an individual.
-- JimDandy
-------------------------
"And anyone who does get close, and makes waves against the corruption,
evil, oppressive and unjust ways, they suddenly turn up DEAD. Sonny Bono
for example. "
-Dore