Question from a beginner
Thomas Diemer
But I'm getting frustrated (and my neck hurts <grin>)
Im new to this, and have been viewing the planets mostly, Jupiter, Saturn,
etc.. Tonight, I got my first 192X look at the moon. It was breathtaking!
I am wanting to see more. And have spent the last 3 nights, looking at sky
maps, then walking to the yard to look. Tonight I tried to spot M31. Same as
last night. I see the star formations, the big square, the TRI, and I see
where it is 'supposed to be' , I think. But I see nothing.
Everywhere I read 'M31 is easily seen with the naked eye.....'
What am I doing wrong?
The last few nights, the moon was slim, very low in the west, into the trees
by 9:00 PM, but still is casting light into the rest of the sky. Does this
effect my ability to see M31?
I truly hope this isnt a super dumb question. But I need help to figure this
out.. These star maps, with the EQ curves, are confusing my sense of
direction. Am having to rely on star formations..
I have a 4 1/2 inch Newtonian scope, but am trying to spot these things just
1x (my eyes), just to learn how and where to look, when I do use the scope.
I'm expecting to see a small, blurry, faint view of these objects. Not
bright color, or any of that. Just spotting it, and seeing that it's there,
is the challenge for me. I can look at the pretty color pictures on the
net... and think.. I saw that!
Thanks!
Tom
Michael Spooner
>
>
> I am wanting to see more. And have spent the last 3 nights, looking at sky
> maps, then walking to the yard to look. Tonight I tried to spot M31. Same as
> last night. I see the star formations, the big square, the TRI, and I see
> where it is 'supposed to be' , I think. But I see nothing.
>
> Everywhere I read 'M31 is easily seen with the naked eye.....'
>
> What am I doing wrong?
>
Easily? Maybe once you know what to look for. My advise is to look the
area in question over with a pair of decent binouculars. 7x35 or so
should show it. Then you can look at low power with your scope and work
from there for the most pleasing view. I see it more easily now than
when I was younger and had better eyes but I know what I'm looking for
now. Unfortunately that is not the case with most objects and so I need
larger telescopes as I age (I hope my wife reads this <grin>). Just do a
search on M1 on this newsgroup from the past and I think you'll find
that several have struggled with 'easily' finding objects with scopes.
--Mike Spooner
Scott R. Haas
<tdi...@bright.net> wrote:
>Gosh, I hate to ask this in this newsgroup. So many talented people here.
>But I'm getting frustrated (and my neck hurts <grin>)
>
>Everywhere I read 'M31 is easily seen with the naked eye.....'
>
>What am I doing wrong?
>
>The last few nights, the moon was slim, very low in the west, into the trees
>by 9:00 PM, but still is casting light into the rest of the sky. Does this
>effect my ability to see M31?
Probably not. The moon is still pretty slim and it won't be
reflecting that much light. Even a full moon probably won't
completely wash out M31.
>
>I truly hope this isnt a super dumb question. But I need help to figure this
>out.. These star maps, with the EQ curves, are confusing my sense of
>direction. Am having to rely on star formations..
As well you should. It really, REALLY helps to know as many
constellations as possible. That will truly help you find your way
amongst the stars. When I was kid, my dad always impressed me by
knowing the constellation of Cassiopeia. I never could see it. But
that was one of the first constellations I got to know when I started
in astronomy a little over a year ago. Get to know it and you should
be able to find M31 easily.
Start by locating Cassiopeia. It looks like a 3 with squared off
corners. Then locate Polaris. Draw a line from Polaris THROUGH The
second star on the top line of Cassiopeia. This will point you almost
right to M31.
It will kind of look like this.
M31
(*)
*
*
Polaris *
*
*
*
I hope that helps.
>
>
>Thanks!
>
>Tom
>
>
>
Scott R. Haas
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Scott R. Haas
<tar...@GlobalEyes.com> wrote:
Shoot, I tried to include a rough picture and it turned out like true
garbage.
Sorry.
Mark Bieda
you didn't indicate the local light-pollution status and quality of
seeing for your attempts with M31. I don't think that M31 is "easily
seen" with the naked eye, unless one lives out in the country and
dark-adapts. I have seen it as a naked-eye object under great skies in
the Sierras, where there was little light pollution and by using averted
vision. Those with more experience in this group have probably seen it
naked eye under a lot more demanding conditions. If you can find the
Great Square asterism and Cassiopeia (sp?), you can find Andromeda with
a cheap pair of binoculars. And even here in the city, it's excellent at
low power (7x)! Much recommended!
As for viewing with your telescope, if you have a 5x24 finder, it
will be a bit of a challenge, again unless you have previously found it
with binoculars to get a feel for where it is. I'm about to get a 1x
finder, and I believe that M31 won't be that hard to find then. M31 is
so big that I enjoyed the view through the binoculars more than my view
through the telescope (circa 25x magnification).
Good luck!
Mark
Jeff Cook
> Everywhere I read 'M31 is easily seen with the naked eye.....'
> What am I doing wrong?
'Easily seen?' No, maybe easily GLIMPSED if you know what you're looking
for on a clear night with dark skies and not too much humidity. Maybe
using averted vision if you're not too sleepy.
You won't see a clearly defined spiral, but if you're lucky, a smudgy
gray smear just enough to convince you that the area isn't completely
black. When discussing maked eye observation of dim objects, that's
usually what they're talking about. Still, you ARE seeing it.
--
Jeff Cook
je...@cookstudios.com
http://www.cookstudios.com
Washington DC area
Mark Wagner
: 'Easily seen?' No, maybe easily GLIMPSED if you know what you're looking
: for on a clear night with dark skies and not too much humidity. Maybe
: using averted vision if you're not too sleepy.
Hi Jeff,
I live at the south western edge of the big city of San Jose, California.
On a good night, I can see M31 with direct vision. On a really good
night, I can see it well extended. My skies are okay, but I would not
call them "dark"...
At our best local observing site, about 60 miles south of San Jose, but
only 20 miles south of the south valley's smaller (yet still significant)
cities, M13 and M15 are naked eye. But those are small smudges requiring
averted vision.
When our group goes to a very dark sky, such as Mt. Lassen Volcanic
National Park at 8250 feet elevation in northern California, we can
conduct a naked-eye mini-Messier marathon (incling M81 on the best
nights).
--
Mark Wagner
Visit the S.F. bay area's spot for active observational
astronomers - The Astronomy Connection http://www.seds.org/TAC
Jeff Cook
> When our group goes to a very dark sky, such as Mt. Lassen Volcanic
> National Park at 8250 feet elevation in northern California, we can
> conduct a naked-eye mini-Messier marathon (incling M81 on the best
> nights).
Cool. Can I come over and play?
Mark Wagner
: > When our group goes to a very dark sky, such as Mt. Lassen Volcanic
: > National Park at 8250 feet elevation in northern California, we can
: > conduct a naked-eye mini-Messier marathon (incling M81 on the best
: > nights).
: Cool. Can I come over and play?
Jeff,
From the space shots of the US at night, I think you're in one mother
light dome. If you do ever make your way out to the SF bay area, we have
lots of star parties. Check out our web-page for dates and stop by.
Walter W. Knapp
>
> Gosh, I hate to ask this in this newsgroup. So many talented people here.
> But I'm getting frustrated (and my neck hurts <grin>)
We have all been where you are.
Experiment with chairs to help the neck. If your scope is getting to you
and height is adjustable, try different heights. I like to plop into a
lounge chair when I get too sore, and just scan with binoculars.
> Everywhere I read 'M31 is easily seen with the naked eye.....'
Naked eye under good seeing conditions. Or under poorer conditions if
you already know how to find it.
> The last few nights, the moon was slim, very low in the west, into the trees
> by 9:00 PM, but still is casting light into the rest of the sky. Does this
> effect my ability to see M31?
yes
> I truly hope this isnt a super dumb question. But I need help to figure this
> out.. These star maps, with the EQ curves, are confusing my sense of
> direction. Am having to rely on star formations..
Star formations is what you use the star maps for. Unless you are just
looking for the coordinates to feed into your goto... The details of
the arrangements of stars are your roadmap.
> I have a 4 1/2 inch Newtonian scope, but am trying to spot these things just
> 1x (my eyes), just to learn how and where to look, when I do use the scope.
> I'm expecting to see a small, blurry, faint view of these objects. Not
> bright color, or any of that. Just spotting it, and seeing that it's there,
> is the challenge for me. I can look at the pretty color pictures on the
> net... and think.. I saw that!
A lot is in learning just how different the view is from those pretty
pictures. No color, just a dim glow that's elliptical. You will do
better to hunt with binoculars rather than by eye. I can find it by eye,
as can lots of people, but we probably did not find it the first time
that way. With the moon to interfere, it's a bit tougher, although I've
made it out with binoculars during a full moon. I can wander out as I
did tonight with just a 8x50 finder and find it too. What really pleased
me tonight was that I also got M33 with that finder, that's much harder.
I know exactly where to look, as M31's a old friend. I trickle down to
it from Cassiopea normally. Just like wandering down a familiar trail.
Sit down and learn to use the sky charts, take the piece of sky and work
back and forth between the chart and the sky identifying where it's got
to be, working star by star if necessary. Look around for alignments of
stars that point to it. If you are using a computer sky program, set the
magnitude to resemble the number of stars you see. And make a printout
to take out with you. Working out how to visualize the sky chart on the
sky takes a bit of time. Then, once you have it narrowed down, sweep
just around there, with binoculars or telescope, looking for a fairly
dim diffusely glowing area, not points of light, although stars from our
galaxy are in front of and around it. With your scope size, only the
central part will be visible, even that is fairly big. At some point you
will realize you are looking right at it but just have not been seeing
it. Keep your scope at lowest power, or you will look right through it.
When you get it in the scope, you may find it fills it. In actual fact,
it will, although you may not see all of it. The other thing that can
help is to remember that this is not a point, as it may be marked on the
chart. The marked point is just the center.
Particularly for the first time, it' helps greatly to have a moonless
night of good seeing. The darker the sky background the better. I wish
someone would tell me where to order a package of those, You know, just
add water - or some such instructions... ;-)
Keep at it, you will get there. It took me a couple days the first time
too, but once I found it, it was nothing to find it again. Once you see
your first faint fuzzy, the next one is going to be easier as you will
have a better idea what to expect.
Stephen Tonkin
>Tonight I tried to spot M31. Same as
>last night. I see the star formations, the big square, the TRI, and I see
>where it is 'supposed to be' , I think. But I see nothing.
Use the lowest magnification possible with your telescope (on your 4.5"
something of the order of x20 would be ideal) or, better, a binocular.
Obviously, it is easier to see from a dark site, but I have shown it to
people from a brightly lit car park in a 4". You do need a dark sky if
you hope to see it naked eye.
As for finding it, this is what works from this latitude at about 10pm
(+/- an hour or so) local time at this time of year (for the "clock
positions -- you'll need to rotate the "clock" if it is elsewhere in the
sky and if your latitude is different), using a 10x50 binocular:
* Locate the star Mirach (beta Andromedae) -- it's the bright yellow one
in the more southerly of the two strings of stars that extend from the
corner of the square of Pegasus (alpha Andromedae). Place it at the 6
o'clock position in the field of view.
* Between 11 o'clock and midnight is a dimmer white (4th mag) star, mu
Andromedae. Place it at 6 o'clock.
* Between 10 o'clock and 11 o'clock is a slightly dimmer white star, nu
Andromedae. Place nu at about 8 o'clock.
* M31 will be near, probably just left of, the centre of the field of
view.
Noctis Gaudia Carpe,
Stephen
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"Thomas Diemer" <tdi...@bright.net> wrote:
> Tonight I tried to spot M31... I see nothing.
> Everywhere I read 'M31 is easily seen with the naked eye.....'
> What am I doing wrong?
You're not doing anything wrong!
As to why you can't see it, there are numerous possibilities.
First, as a beginner, whenever you see the phrase "it is easy to
see X", you should take it with several dozen grains of salt.
In this sentence, "easy" means "easy to an experienced observer."
As when you are in a math class and the teacher says "it is easy
to see that ...". Yeah, sure! The more experienced you get,
the more things get divided into two classes: easy and impossible.
The hard part is telling which is which!
Yes, I find it easy to see M31 naked-eye even under fairly serious
light pollution -- like good suburban skies, or a half Moon. But
I know exactly where it is and what it looks like, and I have
seen hundreds of galaxies through instruments of all kinds.
M31 is obviously not all *that* easy, since the earliest record
we have of it dates to late Medieval times (Arab, of course).
Contrast that to genuinely easy deep-sky objects like M44, or
even not-so-easy M41, both of which were recorded by the Greeks.
Second, a moderate amount of light pollution -- the kind that
most people in the U.S. live under -- makes M31 not so easy at
all. As I said, I can still see it even under quite poor
conditions, but that's because I already know where it is.
Finally, one experienced correspondent to s.a.a. reported
never being able to see M31 naked-eye even under very dark skies,
despite being able to see objects (like M13) that I find quite
a bit more difficult. So I guess it depends on the observer.
As everybody else says, try binoculars. I can see M31 pretty
easily with 7X35 binoculars even from the city. Under dark
skies, it is totally unmistakable; really hits you over the
head. And once seen in binoculars, it is much easier to
see naked-eye.
--
- Tony Flanders
Cambridge, MA
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Chris Marriott
Thomas Diemer wrote in message ...
>Everywhere I read 'M31 is easily seen with the naked eye.....'
"Easily" is a relative term. I'd estimate that you need to be able to see
stars of at least mag 5 to be able to see M31 naked eye. From my back garden
I typically have a limiting magnitude of between 3.5 and 4, and have NEVER
seen M31 without optical aid.
It's very easy to see in binoculars, however.
Regards,
Chris
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robin
Walter W. Knapp <wwk...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3806BA4C...@mindspring.com...
> I know exactly where to look, as M31's a old friend. I trickle down to
> it from Cassiopea normally. Just like wandering down a familiar trail.
>
As I am still waiting for my Discovery 8" inch to arrive one of these days
now, I have to look at the sky with my 8x50 binoculars.
I always find M31 by first looking(with the bino's) at Alpheratz(21 Alf AND)
then going to the left, to 29 AND(easy to find in bino's) as it is almost in
the middle of an imaginary 'line' formed by three stars, an unknown 5.48
mag. star, 29 AND and 31 Del AND. Then, from 29 AND I go further to 37 Mu
AND. From 37 Mu AND you take an angle of 90° towards 35 Nu AND. You continue
going up for about the same distant as you did from 37 Mu And to 35 Nu AND
and there you should find M31.
(I hope you can all understand this so-so english of me ;-) )
Clear skies,
--
Robin
______________________
e-mail: rob...@skynet.be
ICQ: 32822818
Don Winspear
Try this. Locate Mirach. To the north is Mu AND, a relatively bright
(mag 4.7) star. Note the distance between Mirach and Mu AND and then
go that same distance again and in the same direction. It will plant
you right on M31! Works like a charm!
Don
Dallas
robin
Don Winspear <nos...@fake.com> wrote in message
news:83054E7E3A149864.6F61DE5B...@lp.airnews.net...
> Robin,
>
> Try this. Locate Mirach. To the north is Mu AND, a relatively bright
> (mag 4.7) star. Note the distance between Mirach and Mu AND and then
> go that same distance again and in the same direction. It will plant
> you right on M31! Works like a charm!
>
thanks, I saw the posting off stephen Tonkin. who uses the same methods as
you describe. Could probably be more easy than my way. Although I find it
quit easily the way I do it(exept in explaining it ;-)) ), I'll certainly
give it a try. Thanks for the advice.
Maybe some off you, the more experienced 'starhoppers' could give some
Messier objects and the way one can find them easily.(with binoculars and
telescope). If it isn't to much of a trouble offcourse.
Clear skies,
--
Robin(desperatly waiting for his 8" dob)
______________________
e-mail: rob...@skynet.be
ICQ: 32822818
David Nakamoto
eye from the middle of LA, specifically Griffith Observatory, and
even though the local lights were dimmed, I wouldn't call it a
dark site!
On the other hand, after I pointed out where to look and what to
look for, several non-astronomers were able to see it from the same
location.
Now, the spiral arms, on the other hand...
Mark Bieda wrote:
>
> Thomas,
> you didn't indicate the local light-pollution status and
> quality of seeing for your attempts with M31. I don't think that
> M31 is "easily seen" with the naked eye, unless one lives out in
> the country and dark-adapts.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
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Had to get away to see what we could find
Hope the days that lie ahead bring us back to where they've led
Listen not to what's been said to you
--- Graham Nash
Name: David I. Nakamoto
E-mail: din@blankreg (David I. Nakamoto)
--------------------------------------------------------
Richard Hendricks
can't see it naked eye from here (SE Austin). To find it, I use the
"skinny" part of Cas's W as an arrow to the bright star down from the
square, and then from the bright star go up & left 1 star, and then up &
1eft 1 more. M31 is on the top edge of the FOV then.
M31 I can find pretty easily. M33 on the other hand, I haven't been
able to detect at all with my dept. store 10x50's.
Stephen Tonkin wrote:
>
> Thomas Diemer <tdi...@bright.net> wrote:
Dom Mc Curry
>
>Don Winspear <nos...@fake.com> wrote in message
>news:83054E7E3A149864.6F61DE5B...@lp.airnews.net...
Robin,
There is a great book by the late Harvard Pennington, called "The year
round Messier Marathon" It is published by Willmann-Bell Inc. of
Richmond, Virginia, ISBN 0-943396-54-9. This lists all the Messier
objects, and how to find them, with finder and telrad charts. I think
you would find it useful.
Enjoy your new scope.
Dom.
snip