OT: NASA seeks ideas to use Hubble-class spy telescopes

[Sam Wormley]

OT: NASA seeks ideas to use Hubble-class spy telescopes
> http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n1211/27nrotelescopes/#.ULWsS6XfWlI

> Each of the telescopes have 2.4-meter, or 94-inch, primary mirrors, the same size as the Hubble Space Telescope.
>
> The call for proposals issued Tuesday seeks information on concepts to use the NRO telescopes for astrophysics, heliophysics, planetary sciences and human spaceflight missions, according to NASA.
>
> NASA announced in June it took possession of the spy hardware, which was developed for a canceled NRO imaging satellite program. Although NASA said each telescope is worth about $250 million, they do not come with any support equipment, such as a spacecraft, instruments, or actuators, which would be needed for a full space mission.

[oriel36]

One is very straightforward,very simple and very important..

http://www.masil-astro-imaging.com/SWI/UV%20montage%20flat.jpg

The Earth seen from a moving planet and especially its phases where
the polar coordinates will be seen to turn in a circle to the central
Sun as they are carried around by the orbital behavior of the planet.

Nothing as beautiful but then again,we live in the era of the spinning
moon cult.

[RichA]

They mentioned balloon missions. What kind of balloon size would be
needed to launch one of them to a specific altitude. I propose NASA
stop ALL Earth-based research designed to bolster the scam global
warming industry and devote that money to completing the Webb Space
telescope and to utilize these new spy telescopes. FOR ASTRONOMY!

[Chris L Peterson]

On Wed, 28 Nov 2012 11:40:31 -0800 (PST), RichA <rande...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>I propose NASA
>stop ALL Earth-based research designed to bolster the scam global
>warming industry and devote that money to completing the Webb Space
>telescope and to utilize these new spy telescopes. FOR ASTRONOMY!

If they did, they'd be in violation of their charter and mission.

[Sam Wormley]

On 11/28/12 1:40 PM, RichA wrote:
> I propose NASA stop ALL Earth-based research designed to bolster the scam global

> warming industry...

Do you have any arguments against global warming that are not already
listed among the climate myths noted here?
> http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

[Quadibloc]

On Nov 28, 11:49 am, oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com> wrote:

> One is very straightforward,very simple and very important..
>
> http://www.masil-astro-imaging.com/SWI/UV%20montage%20flat.jpg
>
> The Earth seen from a moving planet and especially its phases where
> the polar coordinates will be seen to turn in a circle to the central
> Sun as they are carried around by the orbital behavior of the planet.
>
> Nothing as beautiful but then again,we live in the era of the spinning
> moon cult.

You don't need a giant telescope for pictures demonstrating the basic
motions of the planets. The old OAO satellites would be entirely
sufficient.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Nov 28, 1:37 pm, Chris L Peterson <c...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Nov 2012 11:40:31 -0800 (PST), RichA <rander3...@gmail.com>

> wrote:
>
> >I propose NASA
> >stop ALL Earth-based research designed to bolster the scam global
> >warming industry and devote that money to completing the Webb Space
> >telescope and to utilize these new spy telescopes.  FOR ASTRONOMY!
>
> If they did, they'd be in violation of their charter and mission.

The "stop" part, yes. But since the Hubble isn't in violation of their
charter, turning the spy telescopes into additional Hubbles wouldn't
be either.

John Savard

[oriel36]

This nonsense has no other cause than a global lack of astronomers and
the only change it indicates is the dominance of pseudoscientific
modeling over proper interpretation,a change that happened
dramatically in the late 17th century.

If humanity was genuinely serious about determining what planetary
climate is,they would have interpreted the sequence of images
correctly and created a spectrum between equatorial climate (zero
degree inclination) and a polar climate (90 degree inclination) on the
other side of the spectrum.No doom laden predictions but astronomy at
its most vibrant and part of that is imaging the Earth from Mars as it
makes a circuit of the Sun and as it turns daily.

The NASA charter is for exploration and innovation rather than
desperation to find life other than on Earth or as a weapon against
astronomy through the pseudoscience.It only took them 10 years to
produce a video based on clocks ,the 24 hour AM/PM cycle and the Lat/
Long system and I have seen furtive attempts to come to grips with the
modification which reworks axial precession to an annual orbital trait
as the polar coordinates are carried around in a circle to the central
Sun.

Not bad for $40 dollars in monthly internet fees while all the
salaried geniuses are playing catch-up but at least people will
eventually have a stable astronomical narrative and that is all that
matters.

[Chris L Peterson]

On Wed, 28 Nov 2012 20:27:36 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
<jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>The "stop" part, yes. But since the Hubble isn't in violation of their
>charter, turning the spy telescopes into additional Hubbles wouldn't
>be either.

Quite so.

[Mike Collins]

oriel36 <kellehe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 28, 9:49 pm, Sam Wormley <sworml...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 11/28/12 1:40 PM, RichA wrote:
>>
>>> I propose NASA stop ALL Earth-based research designed to bolster the scam global
>>> warming industry...
>>
>> Do you have any arguments against global warming that are not already
>> listed among the climate myths noted here?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
>
> This nonsense has no other cause than a global lack of astronomers and
> the only change it indicates is the dominance of pseudoscientific
> modeling over proper interpretation,a change that happened
> dramatically in the late 17th century.
>

There are plenty of astronomers. Your problem is that they prefer the real
world to your infantile fallacies.
I won't dignify your one man cult with the name pseudoscience since science
is not a part of your world view.

> If humanity was genuinely serious about determining what planetary
> climate is,they would have interpreted the sequence of images
> correctly

This has of course been done. You are unhappy because we won't abandon
reality and adopt your blasphemous cult.

>and created a spectrum between equatorial climate (zero
> degree inclination) and a polar climate (90 degree inclination) on the
> other side of the spectrum.No doom laden predictions but astronomy at
> its most vibrant

The whole world knows about the cause of seasons. Except for you.

>and part of that is imaging the Earth from Mars as it
> makes a circuit of the Sun and as it turns daily.
>

There is no need to do this. Newton's equations with a little help from
Einstein mean we can calculate and model this with exquisite precision.

> The NASA charter is for exploration and innovation rather than
> desperation to find life other than on Earth or as a weapon against
> astronomy through the pseudoscience.It only took them 10 years to
> produce a video based on clocks ,the 24 hour AM/PM cycle and the Lat/
> Long

This is a dumbed down video for young children.

> and I have seen furtive attempts to come to grips with the
> modification which reworks axial precession to an annual orbital trait
> as the polar coordinates are carried around in a circle to the central
> Sun.

In your dreams!

>
> Not bad for $40 dollars in monthly internet fees while all the
> salaried geniuses are playing catch-up but at least people will
> eventually have a stable astronomical narrative and that is all that
> matters.

Dream on!

[palsing]

On Wednesday, November 28, 2012 9:24:31 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:

> No doom laden predictions but astronomy at
>
> its most vibrant and part of that is imaging the Earth from Mars as it
>
> makes a circuit of the Sun and as it turns daily.

And while it is doing this, it could also image our moon as it makes a circuit of the Earth and turns (approximately) monthly, as seen from Mars.

[oriel36]

On Nov 29, 3:59 pm, Chris L Peterson <c...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Nov 2012 20:27:36 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
>

> <jsav...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >The "stop" part, yes. But since the Hubble isn't in violation of their
> >charter, turning the spy telescopes into additional Hubbles wouldn't
> >be either.
>
> Quite so.

Here's your charter -

"The aeronautical and space activities of the United States shall be
conducted so as to contribute materially to one or more of the
following objectives:

(1) The expansion of human knowledge of the Earth and of phenomena in
the atmosphere and space. "

http://www.nasa.gov/offices/ogc/about/space_act1.html


No doubt there are great people at NASA ,innovators and engineering
specialists but there is absolutely nothing which complies with the
charter when the organization insists on either ignoring knowledge of
the Earth or outright destroying it at the most basic of all facts -

http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/planets/profile.cfm?Object=Earth&Display=Facts&System=Metric


There cannot be some sort of perverse satisfaction in doing something
wrong,I can understand those who are naturally wrapped up in the
vicious cycle where they go from student to 'teacher' and infect the
next generation but not those who are under no pressure to agree with
anyone and can think independently and value that human right.

The internet gives us all the privilege of not only reading the
original insights and how the great astronomers approached
observations and their interpretation but contemporary imaging makes
it almost effortless yet the great part of humanity is chained to late
17th century wishful thinking that added nothing to astronomy and did
so much damage.

I personally don't know how anyone could live with themselves knowing
that they could change the direction of human thinking on so many
topics by complying with the few basic principles of astronomy and
especially that an honest mistake is fine but not the runaway
distortions which drive pseudoscientific modeling.

[oriel36]

Had there been genuine astronomers here they would have picked up
immediately on the observation that the polar coordinates act like a
beacon for the orbital behavior of the Earth as they are carried

around in a circle to the central Sun.

It will be one of the most amazing photos ever as a montage of images
as the Earth draws closer to Mars and maybe more than a few observers
will come to understand that axial precession as it is presently
understood is creating obstacles for defining climate as the Earth
doesn't 'tilt' toward and away from the Sun but the much easier
perception arising from the introduction of an ecliptic axis around
which the polar coordinates turn and that these actions can be seen
directly is probably the most troubling aspect of all.

Remember now,to be religious is to possess an inspirational nature
while those who have a hatred of religion or try to fashion images of
Universal things is a less than inspirational form have no love nor
life left in them.Despite the commercialization of the Christian
festival,people still feel that period for good or for bad and
especially as it coincides with the orbital event of the solstice.You
feel nothing for astronomy or faith and a life like that is hardly
living- the simplest person of science or religious understand can
tell you that.

[Mike Collins]

Commercialisation of the Christian festival?
You are talking about the midwinter solstice festival stolen by the
Christians from the Pagans.
And apart from the veneer if Christianity it's still a Pagan festival only
slightly corrupted by your rituals.

[Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway]

"Mike Collins" wrote in message
news:1875022365375914365.26857...@news.eternal-september.org...

====================================================
Never mind the boughs of holly, deck the halls with crucifixes of blood
and drink wine as the surrogate blood of Christ, that'll make it Christian.
Aww... little baby Jesus gets eaten every week by ritual cannibalism.

-- This message is brought to you from the keyboard of
Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway

[Martin Brown]

The real question is whether or not having additional Hubble class
scopes in orbit is worth the price performance hit on running the kit
and additional teams to operate it. Might be better to wait for this
Hubble to fail and get another CIA bird launch ready to replace it.

I am not convinced with the advances in very large ground based optical
scopes with adaptive seeing correction that extra Hubbles in orbit will
do anything other than burn up extra mission support budget to waste.

Regards,
Martin Brown

[Chris L Peterson]

On Thu, 29 Nov 2012 21:30:57 +0000, Martin Brown
<|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>I am not convinced with the advances in very large ground based optical
>scopes with adaptive seeing correction that extra Hubbles in orbit will
>do anything other than burn up extra mission support budget to waste.

The problem is that while ground-based telescopes have significantly
better resolution than space-based telescopes with 2-3 meter optics,
they can only achieve that resolution over a tiny angle- typically
under an arcminute. In addition, achieving high resolutions at
wavelengths shorter than near IR is challenging. So there's still a
need to be served by space-based, meter+ class optical telescopes.

[Linus Das]

On Thursday, November 29, 2012 9:30:57 PM UTC, Martin Brown wrote:

> do anything other than burn up extra mission support budget to waste.

It may even *save* money:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/05/science/space/repurposed-telescope-may-explore-secrets-of-dark-energy.html?ref=hubblespacetelescope

[oriel36]

On Nov 29, 9:42 pm, Mike Collins <acridiniumes...@gmail.com> wrote:

Betrayal of inspiration by acting in self-interest is by far the most
awful thing a person can do to themselves and I am not talking about
you or the other empiricists here who live only in the imagination and
never feel a connection between the individual and the Universal .

[Quadibloc]

On Nov 29, 10:23 pm, oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Betrayal of inspiration by acting in self-interest is by far the most
> awful thing a person can do to themselves and I am not talking about
> you or the other empiricists here who live only in the imagination and
> never feel a connection between the individual and the Universal .

I don't ask you to do that. Don't stop because we ask you to be quiet,
to fit in... instead, learn more about what I'm saying, so you can see
for yourself that you're mistaken, not inspired.

John Savard

[Honest Abe]

I am away for a couple of years and I STILL see people have pointless
arguments with Oriel. What is the point? I think there must be more
than just him with mental aberrations to continue arguing when your
response is always going to be the same. You'd have better luck playing
tic-tac-toe on constant basis as the mental challenge would be just ever
so slightly greater. Of course you won't though and you'll still be
trying to water an already dead horse.

[oriel36]

How many like you come here,squeek out some usual attempt at an insult
and then never to be seen or heard from again and that is why I
commend those who have stayed regardless of their convictions.

You have an absolute catastrophe occurring where mathematicians and
their pseudoscientific modeling finally drew attention to themselves
by using planetary climate as a topic when they have terminal
difficulties understanding how one 24 hour day and one rotation of the
planet keep in step and if that doesn't shock people in action then
nothing will.You have kids going to school who are taught that these
'genuises' contributed to human understanding of the celestial arena
when it is a pure and unadulterated shambles that can be traced
technically to late 17th century Royal Society empiricism.

Run away with you now back into intellectual oblivion.

[oriel36]

On Nov 29, 4:32 pm, Mike Collins <acridiniumes...@gmail.com> wrote:
> oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > The NASA charter is for exploration and innovation rather than
> > desperation to find life other than on Earth or as a weapon against
> > astronomy through the pseudoscience.It only took them 10 years to
> > produce a video based on clocks ,the 24 hour AM/PM cycle and the Lat/
> > Long
>

> This is a dumbed down video for young children.
>

More accurately,it is a less than accurate summary of the 24 hour AM/
PM system and the Lat/Long system and although it is a video for high
school students you fail to grasp that it contains the facts of a
round and rotating Earth.

The core system is very specific in its references and it did not
involve looking at the Sun,it involves the annual appearance on one
star from behind the glare of the Sun ,in this case the star Sirius
which coincided with the flooding of the Nile hence the framework for
the number of rotations per 4 annual circuits to the nearest
rotation.There is an enormous amount of details to work through in
order to present an understanding where timekeeping systems and
planetary cycles mesh and separate rather than the usual vague
references to the Greeks which seem to substitute for 'ancient
astronomy' among the empiricists.

I do not mind the utter hostility towards this easy to understand
system in favor of the Ra/Dec generated junk which is driving
pseudoscientific modeling,under normal circumstances people would
recognize the clear mistake,deal with it and move on to better things
but now with everyone in so deep and a lot of reputations and
salaries dependent on modeling,it is up to those who have a genuine
feel for astronomy to guide the wider population towards a better
understanding.

Want to teach your grandkids a fairy story - explaining stellar
circumpolar motion using the motions of the Earth certainly qualifies
for that.

[oriel36]

There it is and I didn't know such an image exists -

http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2003/05/22/earth_americas250.jpg

The polar coordinates will be seen to move in a circle and through the
circle of illumination and that image was taken at the orbital point
of May 8th or another 6 weeks before the polar latitudes had moved to
a position at a maximum distance to the circle of illumination at the
June Solstice.Even though the images display planetary 'phases' as
seen from the perspective of Mars,the changing relationship between
the polar coordinates and the circle of illumination belongs entirely
to the Earth's respective motions hence the need to modify the old
explanation of axial precession from a long term axial feature to an
annual orbital feature as the old explanation is blocking the use of
the polar coordinates as an orbital beacon.

Still,the image is as dramatic as I knew it would be and a better
telescope orbiting Mars would capture the entire annual sequence in a
fashion that only a true astronomer could enjoy,not just for the
technical details but simply the pure enjoyment and this
planet.Everything from climate to geological evolution can be
extracted from those images however it is something more than that -
just something that is loved for its uniqueness.

So,there is no need to prove points any longer,these things are there
for the people who have a true connection to the celestial arena and
all the goings on including those of our own planet and perhaps
especially our own planet.

[Radar Spelled Backwards]

I'm planning to build a Dob over the winter . . . are either of these
mirrors for sale??

[RichA]

On Nov 28, 3:49 pm, Sam Wormley <sworml...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/28/12 1:40 PM, RichA wrote:
>
> > I propose NASA stop ALL Earth-based research designed to bolster the scam global
> > warming industry...
>
>    Do you have any arguments against global warming that are not already
>    listed among the climate myths noted here?
>

That you kooks understand nothing about natural warming and cooling
cycles and are mistaking them for man-induced warming?

[RichA]

On Nov 29, 4:30 pm, Martin Brown <|||newspam...@nezumi.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

Have all Hubble benchmarks been exceeded by Earth-based megascopes yet?

[Chris L Peterson]

On Sun, 2 Dec 2012 23:25:35 -0800 (PST), RichA <rande...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Have all Hubble benchmarks been exceeded by Earth-based megascopes yet?

What are "Hubble benchmarks"?

[Chris L Peterson]

On Sun, 2 Dec 2012 23:23:02 -0800 (PST), RichA <rande...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>That you kooks understand nothing about natural warming and cooling
>cycles and are mistaking them for man-induced warming?

Yeah, you have special insight into climatology that is somehow
overlooked by tens of thousands of researchers. Very convincing.

[oriel36]

On Dec 3, 3:36 pm, Chris L Peterson <c...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Dec 2012 23:23:02 -0800 (PST), RichA <rander3...@gmail.com>

> wrote:
>
> >That you kooks understand nothing about natural warming and cooling
> >cycles and are mistaking them for man-induced warming?
>
> Yeah, you have special insight into climatology that is somehow
> overlooked by tens of thousands of researchers. Very convincing.

There is no point criticizing you,for whatever reason you cannot
assess the ecliptic axis around which the polar coordinates are
carried in a circle to the central Sun about a line that follows the
circle of illumination -

http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2003/05/22/earth_americas250.jpg

Inclination defines planetary climate as an indicator between 0 deg
inclination or 90 degree inclination to a planet's orbital axis,the
former reflecting an equatorial climate and the latter a polar
climate.

It is as though nobody ever heard of astronomy before,the image above
has as much relevance as if readers never heard of this planet that
most people call home yet tens of thousands of researchers would have
the wider population believe they are concerned for the planet - if
that were the case I would not have to spend an inordinate amount of
time and effort explaining why axial precession as it is presently
understood cannot get in the way of explaining the seasons or what
actually defines planetary climate by way of introducing another axis.

Even allowing for poor proofreading and that it is not always easy to
transcribe spacial awareness in written terms,what would any person
have to do to convince others that there is not even a working set of
principles which accounts for the daily cycle let alone climate or the
seasons and all it takes is to keep rotations in step with the Sun
rising and setting.What would people have the world do - throw away
astronomy and terrestrial sciences for some miserable social/political
agenda that has little to do with creation ?.

[Ken S. Tucker]

So 10,000 monkeys are smarter than you?
True in a democracy I suppose.
Ken

[Chris L Peterson]

On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 23:52:46 -0800, "Ken S. Tucker"
<dyna...@rocketmail.com> wrote:

>> Yeah, you have special insight into climatology that is somehow
>> overlooked by tens of thousands of researchers. Very convincing.
>
>So 10,000 monkeys are smarter than you?

No, but 10,000 climate researchers know a damn sight more about the
climate than you do (or I do). Since there are essentially no climate
scientists who doubt AGW, it makes non-scientists who do look pretty
stupid (which they are, in fact).

[Ken S. Tucker]

What is the source of that survey? Do you know who
paid whom for it?
Is it a TeeVee thing?
Ken

[Chris L Peterson]

On Tue, 04 Dec 2012 08:43:26 -0800, "Ken S. Tucker"
<dyna...@rocketmail.com> wrote:

>What is the source of that survey? Do you know who
>paid whom for it?

Given that you are ideologically incapable of discussing this subject
rationally, I'm not going to waste my time telling you what you've
already heard a hundred times.

You can't convince a science denier.

[Ken S. Tucker]

Petersons source for "over 10,000 researchers" is in fact TeeVee,
paid for by a secret organization, yet a theoretical physicist who
studies the subject is irrational.
AGW is a growth industry, and creates employment, that appears
to be in evidence.
Ken S. Tucker

[Martin Brown]

Agreed. But having one operational at a time seems to be enough. There
are plenty of ground bases scopes with much larger light grasp which is
essential for spectroscopy. Resolution isn't everything in this game.

The pretty pictures for coffee table books sell Hubble to the public but
most of the science comes off the spectroscopic instruments which allow
determination of the physics and chemistry of the emitter and any gas or
molecular clouds that happen to be in line of sight.

It is only when a new instrument opens up a new waveband at very high
resolution that the images are massively interesting. For instance
Chandra at X-Rays and soon the Webb telescope in InfraRed - I look
forward to a Terahertz instrument. I have seen some preliminary images
from one detector but they are not for public consumption at all.

Regards,
Martin Brown

[wsne...@hotmail.com]

What is disgusting is that someone who believes in AGW would then
waste gallons of fossil fuel driving hundreds of miles to see an
annular eclipse.

[oriel36]

On Dec 5, 9:09 am, Martin Brown <|||newspam...@nezumi.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

> The pretty pictures for coffee table books sell Hubble to the public but
> most of the science comes off the spectroscopic instruments which allow
> determination of the physics and chemistry of the emitter and any gas or
> molecular clouds that happen to be in line of sight.
>

> Regards,
> Martin Brown

The days of empirical self-promotion at the expense of visual and
interpretative astronomy are over as greater magnification power
allows planetary comparisons and true visual aids to looking out at
the motion of planets and moons.There is certainly a niche for genuine
empiricists to work with electromagnetic properties,fluid dynamics and
many topics like that but never again this wayward voodoo chanting for
little more than a sort of welfare existence although they are called
reputations and doctorates.

The genuine astronomer marvels at our own planet above all else,no
coffee book image but something they can enjoy instantly or with the
smallest effort apply intepretations such as how the polar coordinates
are carried around in a circle to the central Sun -

http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2003/05/22/earth_americas250.jpg

The world has had enough of the 'predictive' nonsense that is now
laced with doom and gloom and probably wishes a return to evolutionary
sciences of ice sheet weather and the great cycles of creation and
destruction that goes along with these changes,the difference is that
when visual 'coffee book' astronomy really gets going by direct
imaging and planetary comparisons,the dross that you and your salaried
buddies peddle will have long since faded.

Look around the forum,you can't discuss anything but what is being
discussed are the real modifications that are going on in the
background,maybe not with the transparency these things deserve but
they are happening anyway.

[Chris L Peterson]

On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 08:09:42 +0000, Martin Brown
<|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>Agreed. But having one operational at a time seems to be enough.

That's not clear. My understanding is that quality observing time
requests for the HST exceed the total available time.

>There
>are plenty of ground bases scopes with much larger light grasp which is
>essential for spectroscopy. Resolution isn't everything in this game.

No, but there is a great deal of research that doesn't involve
spectroscopy at all.

>The pretty pictures for coffee table books sell Hubble to the public but
>most of the science comes off the spectroscopic instruments which allow
>determination of the physics and chemistry of the emitter and any gas or
>molecular clouds that happen to be in line of sight.

Spectroscopy is an important tool. But a vast amount of research
depends on conventional imaging (especially using narrow band
filters).

[oriel36]

On Dec 5, 9:09 am, Martin Brown <|||newspam...@nezumi.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

> The pretty pictures for coffee table books sell Hubble to the public but
> most of the science comes off the spectroscopic instruments which allow
> determination of the physics and chemistry of the emitter and any gas or
> molecular clouds that happen to be in line of sight.

> Regards,
> Martin Brown

Here you go son and people may care enough about this planet yet to
enjoy what it has to offer to all those who live on and off its
surface -

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gsfc/sets/72157632175125121/

Can't imagine what is holding back people from astronomy as it is
truly practiced insofar as sometimes it is a coffee table exercise
and sometimes much more complex by virtue of being outside looking in
or by planetary comparisons.What heart does not sink when a community
would much prefer to be chained to centuries old falsehoods than just
move with the times and make of these things what we can.

[Quadibloc]

On Nov 28, 12:40 pm, RichA <rander3...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I propose NASA
> stop ALL Earth-based research designed to bolster the scam global
> warming industry

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121206162519.htm

Can trees move north to avoid global warming?

John Savard

[Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway]

"Quadibloc" wrote in message
news:9e8a6ec6-8752-43a4...@x3g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...

==========================================================
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6179/6196279260_deef71f8fa_b.jpg

On one side, you have the world as you know it: green and lush, and on the
other – well, not yet quite the desert as there is still plenty of grass,
but you feel that you are beginning to enter the hostile territory of the
high mountains.

Trees grow UP to avoid global warming.

Not many trees grow down. What's your objection to raising the tree line?

-- This message is brought to you from the keyboard of
Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway

[Davoud]

Quadibloc:

> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121206162519.htm
>
> Can trees move north to avoid global warming?

On their own? Maybe, probably, given time and depending on how they
propagate their seeds. But with human help, definitely.

It hasn't been too many years since bamboo was exceedingly rare in
Maryland and palm trees were unknown.

Now groves of bamboo are common and more and more palm trees are being
planted and surviving. Scary. I enjoy the palm trees when I vacation in
the Caribbean, but I hope that the palms do not self-propagate and that
the great deciduous forests of the Mid-Atlantic region remain free of
family /Arecaceae/ .

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

[Chris L Peterson]

On Fri, 7 Dec 2012 03:45:00 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:

>Can trees move north to avoid global warming?

Maybe, if you assume that it is local warming that is killing them.
The actual problem seems unidentified, however. Global warming
produces all manner of regional and local effects: warmer weather,
cooler weather, different seasonal onset patterns, drought, flood,
changes in insolation.

These trees might have to move somewhere, but where?

[Mike Collins]

Chris L Peterson <c...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:

The tree line moves poleward and up in response to warming. It does this by
enhanced survival of seedlings beyond the current tree line. Geography may
stop this poleward move in some places. Vertical movements of the tree line
are constrained by poorer nutrients and higher winds at high levels so
upward movements of tree lines in response to warming are less predictable
than poleward movements.

[Chris L Peterson]

On Sun, 9 Dec 2012 13:29:06 +0000 (UTC), Mike Collins
<acridin...@gmail.com> wrote:

>The tree line moves poleward and up in response to warming.

Understood. But the death of these trees, while precipitated by global
warming, is not clearly associated with local warming.

[Ken S. Tucker]

Worse is how the semi-educated (Peterson types) can be whipped into
Mass-hysteria by TeeVee. It's no wonder how Gobbels soon had Germans
hating Jews, c/w the indisputable science of Aryan Superiority.
In addition merely asking a Peterson type for a reference invokes
rath, unbeknowenst to them by private understanding.
Ken