Flame Nebula (NGC2024): have others any luck?
JAB
Hello,
A recent article in Sky & Telescope (March 1997: "Observer's Page")
prompted me to take another look for the Flame Nebula (NGC2024)
in Orion. Over the past two weeks, I have had the scope out looking
for this nebula, and have yet to catch a glimpse of it.
I'm using my old trusty (not rusty ;-) orange c-8 and every combination
of eyepieces from 4mm-50mm in the attempt. I've even used my LPR
filter in the hopes that the added contrast would allow me the
sight. Still...no luck.
T. Polakis of the S&T article states that he can see it in his 11x80's.
I was wondering if others have spotted this as easily, and if there
are any "tips" to this object??
Clear skies,
John
--
--------------------------------------------------
To reply by email, please remove the "nospam" from
the address. Thanks.
--------------------------------------------------
Jay Reynolds Freeman
> ... the Flame Nebula (NGC 2024) ...
> T. Polakis of the S&T article states that he can see it in his 11x80's.
> I was wondering if others have spotted this as easily, and if there
> are any "tips" to this object??
The main tip is to find some dark sky with good transparency. NGC 2024
is quite faint, it doesn't take much light pollution to wash it out.
Even when it is dark, however, nearby zeta Orionis may cause significant
"light pollution" on its own, particularly if there is haze or dust in the
air. That's why the bit about "transparency".
I have seen 2024 in 7x50 and 10x50 binoculars, and in a 50 mm refractor
(Meade model 165) at 24x, all in excellent conditions.
Some folks have an interesting alternate name for it; the "Tank Tracks"
-- there is a big curving dark lane through the middle of it, as if a
tracked vehicle had splashed through a shallow puddle.
--
Jay Reynolds Freeman -- fre...@netcom.com -- I speak only for myself.
Ed Hood
I have seen the Flame Nebula in 10x50s, 20x80s and a 16" Dob. It doesn't "jump out at you" but once you see it, it is obvious.
Especially the "track". In fact, the "track" was what I was looking for. It took a moment to see it but once I saw the "track",
the nebula fell into place.
Ed...
JAB <blac...@nospam.regulus.mv.com> wrote in article <MPG.d8229daf...@zircon.mv.net>...
|
| Hello,
|
| A recent article in Sky & Telescope (March 1997: "Observer's Page")
| prompted me to take another look for the Flame Nebula (NGC2024)
| in Orion. Over the past two weeks, I have had the scope out looking
| for this nebula, and have yet to catch a glimpse of it.
|
| I'm using my old trusty (not rusty ;-) orange c-8 and every combination
| of eyepieces from 4mm-50mm in the attempt. I've even used my LPR
| filter in the hopes that the added contrast would allow me the
| sight. Still...no luck.
|
| T. Polakis of the S&T article states that he can see it in his 11x80's.
| I was wondering if others have spotted this as easily, and if there
| are any "tips" to this object??
|
Nils Olof Carlin
JAB <blac...@nospam.regulus.mv.com> skrev i inlägg
<MPG.d8229daf...@zircon.mv.net>...
>
> Hello,
>
(NGC2024)
> in Orion.
> T. Polakis of the S&T article states that he can see it in his 11x80's.
> I was wondering if others have spotted this as easily, and if there
> are any "tips" to this object??
>
I have found it not too difficult in 6" but you need to keep Zeta out of
the field. It seems to have a color mix different from most other nebulae.
What's the glow coming from? Might be good to know, to choose a filter.
Nils
JAB
In article <freemanE...@netcom.com>, fre...@netcom.com says...
> The main tip is to find some dark sky with good transparency. NGC 2024
> is quite faint, it doesn't take much light pollution to wash it out.
> Even when it is dark, however, nearby zeta Orionis may cause significant
> "light pollution" on its own, particularly if there is haze or dust in the
> air. That's why the bit about "transparency".
Yes, I have been getting a bit concerned with light pollution of late.
I was going over the log yesterday...over 2000 observed objects (nope,
not bragging, but it is a good statistic ;) and notoced that a lot of the
dimmer objects I could see a decade ago are no longer visible even in
what I now consider to be good seeing conditions. This makes me a bit
sad. A good example is that I can remember easily seeing the Crab and the
Hubble nebulae without any difficulty. Now I have to hunt for them.
Maybe this is a good time to fight light pollution a little harder?!
Well, I suppose I'll go up to the north country (NH, Coos County) and
see if I have any better luck there. Thanks for the speedy replies!
If/when I see the tank tracks, I'll llet out a yell!
Clear skies,
john
Shawn & Jennifer Clark
> The main tip is to find some dark sky with good transparency. NGC 2024
> is quite faint, it doesn't take much light pollution to wash it out.
> Even when it is dark, however, nearby zeta Orionis may cause significant
> "light pollution" on its own, particularly if there is haze or dust in
the
> air. That's why the bit about "transparency".
>
> Some folks have an interesting alternate name for it; the "Tank Tracks"
> -- there is a big curving dark lane through the middle of it, as if a
> tracked vehicle had splashed through a shallow puddle.
Hi-
Amen. Transparency has been the key to me seeing it with an 8" SCT. I
have seen it well on only a few nights using a 40 mm Plossl. Looking at my
sketches, Tank Track Nebula describes it much better than Flame. If you
want to see it with an SCT use your lowest power eyepiece to get the
brightest exit pupil. Due to the generally lousy observing weather for the
past few MONTHS I have not been able to get out to my semi-dark site on a
decent night to observe it with a 55mm Plossl. And, if you can't find this
nebula easily during a session, don't even bother looking for the Horsehead
during the session. Even on nights where I have seen the Tank Track well,
the HH has been averted vision only using a 40 mm Plossl, H-II filter, and
a hood. Now, if I only had a truly dark-sky site...
Shawn Clark
sd&jkc...@tyler.net
Tom Polakis
JAB wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> A recent article in Sky & Telescope (March 1997: "Observer's Page")
> prompted me to take another look for the Flame Nebula (NGC2024)
> in Orion. Over the past two weeks, I have had the scope out looking
> for this nebula, and have yet to catch a glimpse of it.
>
> I'm using my old trusty (not rusty ;-) orange c-8 and every combination
> of eyepieces from 4mm-50mm in the attempt. I've even used my LPR
> filter in the hopes that the added contrast would allow me the
> sight. Still...no luck.
>
> I was wondering if others have spotted this as easily, and if there
> are any "tips" to this object??
>
> John
-----------------
John,
If you really have the experience of observing 2000 objects, then you should
have no problem seeing NGC 2024 with a small scope. My guess is that, as others
have suggested, you are observing from a site with poor transparency, or a lot
of light pollution. My stronger suspision, though, involves the instrument you
are using. I hate talking equipment ad nauseum, but commercial SCT's are
notorious for poor contrast due to insufficient baffling. The light of Zeta
Orionis may be brightening up the field too much for a successful view. I've
made many observations the Local Group dwarf galaxy Leo I, which lies about a
half degree from blazing Regulus. Here, an 8-inch Newtonian shows it from a
dark site, but I failed to see it in a popular 10-inch SCT. Thanks for looking
at my article.
A further equipment note: I might add that catadioptrics don't _have_ to be
low-contrast instruments. I observed through a well baffled 8-inch owned by
Michael Collins (not the astronaut), and the views were refractor-esque. This
instrument was made by Max Bray, and not cranked out in high volume.
Tom
--
Tom Polakis
Tempe, AZ
http://www.psiaz.com/polakis/skyphoto.html
Jay Reynolds Freeman
Tom Polakis writes:
> I hate talking equipment ad nauseum, but commercial SCT's are
> notorious for poor contrast due to insufficient baffling. The light
> of Zeta Orionis may be brightening up the field too much for a
> successful view. I've made many observations the Local Group dwarf
> galaxy Leo I, which lies about a half degree from blazing Regulus.
> Here, an 8-inch Newtonian shows it from a dark site, but I failed to
> see it in a popular 10-inch SCT. Thanks for looking at my article.
I agree with Tom that poor baffling can be a problem. For some
instruments, a simple trick may help. Make an occulting bar, by
gluing a piece of matchstick chordwise across the end of a paper tube,
rolled to just the right diameter to fit in the front end of your
favorite deep-sky eyepiece. Blacken the whole thing with ink. Stuff
it into the eyepiece till the bar is in focus. (That won't work with
Naglers or other eyepieces with built-in Barlow lenses.) Now observe
so that zeta Orionis, or Regulus, or whatever, is within the field but
on top of the occulting bar, so that its light is blocked.
If your instrument is well-baffled, it would likely be better to
position the bright star *out* of the field, but to do so in a
poorly-baffled instrument runs the risk of scattered light from it
ruining the view. It may then be better to get all the light focused
into one place, where you can kill it, with the occulting bar.
> A further equipment note: I might add that catadioptrics don't
> _have_ to be low-contrast instruments. I observed through a well
> baffled 8-inch owned by Michael Collins (not the astronaut), and the
> views were refractor-esque. This instrument was made by Max Bray,
> and not cranked out in high volume.
Even the commercial hardware can do a decent job some of the time.
I have observed Leo I with my C-14, at 71x and at 122x. I have failed
to see it in a 6-inch Newtonian at 36x (hand-held, so I could not use
more power, and what's more, Regulus kept sneaking out from behind my
occulting bar). Hmn, I will have to give it a try in my Intes 6-inch
Mak.
Uwe Pilz
>Hello,
>A recent article in Sky & Telescope (March 1997: "Observer's Page")
>prompted me to take another look for the Flame Nebula (NGC2024)
>in Orion. Over the past two weeks, I have had the scope out looking
>for this nebula, and have yet to catch a glimpse of it.
>I'm using my old trusty (not rusty ;-) orange c-8 and every combination
>of eyepieces from 4mm-50mm in the attempt. I've even used my LPR
>filter in the hopes that the added contrast would allow me the
>sight. Still...no luck.
The nebula is sensitive against light pollution, BUT I saw it form
my moderately polluted site at the edge form Leipzig (0.5 Mio inh.).
It sky has a good transparancy, what emeans the limiting mag. was
5m5. I used my INTES Maksutov (6"). The object was not too hard with
50x. Zeta Ori shout be out of the field.
-Uwe $_=(32*257*263*3461).(8*9*91372201).(2*3*267*435850691);
$_.=(5*7*811*2689).(2*607*55813);s/../printf('%c',$&)/ge;
_ _ mail: pi...@server3.medizin.uni-leipzig.de
@ @ voice: (+49 341) 97 12714 (office) (+49 341) 60 10 383 (home)
<> fax: (+49 341) 26 15 456
\__/ snail: Kieler Str. 63, 04357 Leipzig, Germany
Herm Perez
>> ... the Flame Nebula (NGC 2024) ...
>
>> T. Polakis of the S&T article states that he can see it in his 11x80's.
>> I was wondering if others have spotted this as easily, and if there
>> are any "tips" to this object??
>
> The main tip is to find some dark sky with good transparency. NGC 2024
>is quite faint, it doesn't take much light pollution to wash it out.
>Even when it is dark, however, nearby zeta Orionis may cause significant
>"light pollution" on its own, particularly if there is haze or dust in the
>air. That's why the bit about "transparency".
Last night it was quite clear, even with zeta in the fov..definetely a
good transparency nigth.
> Some folks have an interesting alternate name for it; the "Tank Tracks"
>-- there is a big curving dark lane through the middle of it, as if a
>tracked vehicle had splashed through a shallow puddle.
It looks just like a flame to me..it was also very visible in
celestron 20*80 binos and in my Tentos 20*60.
Herm
Jason Ware
Herm Perez wrote:
>
> On Sat, 1 Mar 1997 19:07:17 GMT, fre...@netcom.com (Jay Reynolds
> Freeman) wrote:
>
> >> ... the Flame Nebula (NGC 2024) ...
> >
> >> T. Polakis of the S&T article states that he can see it in his 11x80's.
> >> I was wondering if others have spotted this as easily, and if there
> >> are any "tips" to this object??
I have seen the Flame, as well as the dark lane through it with
10x50 binoculars. BTW if you are interested the photo that appears
in the article is available on my web page. Enjoy...
--
-Jason Ware
---------------------------------------------------------
VISIT MY ASTROPHOTOGRAPHY HOMEPAGE!!
ASTRO IMAGES FOR DOWN-LOAD, TIPS, REPRINTS
URL: http://www.galaxyphoto.com
---------------------------------------------------------
Akkana Peck
JAB <blac...@nospam.regulus.mv.com> wrote:
>prompted me to take another look for the Flame Nebula (NGC2024)
>T. Polakis of the S&T article states that he can see it in his 11x80's.
>I was wondering if others have spotted this as easily, and if there
>are any "tips" to this object??
From dark skies, I can see it fairly easily in my 4.25" f/4 Coulter
Newtonian. Sometimes a UHC filter helps a bit, but it doesn't seem
to help as much as it does on some other nebulae. In my 6" f/8,
it's quite obvious and usually visible from even moderately dark
skies, but usually not from in town.
I usually use something between 40x (if I just want a quick look or
if I'm using the 4.25") and 120x (if I want to look for detail in the
dark lane with the 6"), and position zeta Orionis just out of the field.
I'd recommend something like 50-60x if you're trying to find it for
the first time with an 8".
I've also heard this nebula called the "burning bush", which is
more descriptive of the way it looks in a small 'scope. The dark
lane doesn't look anything like tank tracks to me. Perhaps that
takes more aperture.
...Akkana
Ross Brunetti
My second thought upon reading this thread title was, why send
insulting posts about an innocent nebula?
Ross Brunetti
dar...@shore.intercom.net
> Tom Polakis <pol...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> I've made many observations the Local Group dwarf galaxy Leo I, which lies about a
> half degree from blazing Regulus. Here, an 8-inch Newtonian shows it from a
> dark site, but I failed to see it in a popular 10-inch SCT. Thanks for looking
> at my article.
>
Searched last night. I have made many observations as well from 5.2 LM skies.
How important is a dust free primary and secondary in a newtonian for this
object in your opinion? Also, I am using Naglers. Do you recommend another
type pf eyepiece? I have seen it well in my 20mm but last night it evaded me
except for a suspected brightening; IOW, a view I couldn't quite get my teeth
into.
/Rusty
Tom Polakis
-------------
Rusty,
I would guess the 5.2 LM skies are what's getting you. You really need to get out to
a true dark site to see Leo I. Actually, it's not much more than a suspected
brightening. It's very large, so you'll need to get a F.O.V. of a good degree or so
before you'll have enough sky around it.
Tom
--
Jennifer B. Jakiel
Tom Polakis (pol...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: dar...@shore.intercom.net wrote:
: > Searched last night. I have made many observations as well from 5.2 LM skies.
: > How important is a dust free primary and secondary in a newtonian for this
: > object in your opinion? Also, I am using Naglers. Do you recommend another
: > type pf eyepiece? I have seen it well in my 20mm but last night it evaded me
: > except for a suspected brightening; IOW, a view I couldn't quite get my teeth
: > into.
: > /Rusty
: -------------
: Rusty,
: I would guess the 5.2 LM skies are what's getting you. You really need to get out to
: a true dark site to see Leo I. Actually, it's not much more than a suspected
: brightening. It's very large, so you'll need to get a F.O.V. of a good degree or so
: before you'll have enough sky around it.
: Tom
: http://www.psiaz.com/polakis/skyphoto.html
Rusty,
Tom is certainly right on this. Leo 1 is contrast-dependent and needs
dark, contrasty skies to be seen well. At our club site (mag 6.0 at
best), its pretty difficult in the 20-inch. However, at the WSP and other
reasonably dark (+6.5) sites, I had no problem finding it in my old
13-inch scope.
Of course, Tom is _lucky_ with those + 7.0 mag arixzona skies! :)
- Rich Jakiel
Jay Reynolds Freeman
I have seen Leo I several times from Fremont Peak in a Celestron 14,
at 71x and 122x; have failed to find it from the same site in a 6-inch
Newtonian at 36x, and have not tried any other sites or instruments.
Jere Kahanpт
Hi!
In article <freemanE...@netcom.com> fre...@netcom.com (Jay Reynolds Freeman) writes:
>I have seen Leo I several times from Fremont Peak in a Celestron 14,
>at 71x and 122x; have failed to find it from the same site in a 6-inch
>Newtonian at 36x, and have not tried any other sites or instruments.
> Jay Reynolds Freeman -- fre...@netcom.com -- I speak only for myself.
(I'm not sure if my first post about Leo I came through. At least I didn't
ever see it on the group)
Last weekend I saw Leo I (ugc5470) with a 8-inch Dobsonian with mag. 6.4
skies (but very poor seeing). It was suspected at 40x and slightly easier at
80x but not visible at 133x. I didn't know the exact place (within 1 deg of
Regulus was enough) or the orientation but the field drawing matches with
Megastar almost perfectly. It looks very much like a faint ghost image of a
bright star (ie Regulus) but is stationary against the background of stars
and slightly concentrated/elongated W-E.
I've also missed it with a 16-inch Newtonian (from Lysvik, Sweden) under
good skies but I was somewhat less experienced then.
Jere Kahanpaa
http://www.helsinki.fi/~jkahanpa/mainastro.html
christi...@yahoo.com
> I have seen the Flame Nebula in 10x50s, 20x80s and a 16" Dob. It doesn't "jump out at you" but once you see it, it is obvious.
> Especially the "track". In fact, the "track" was what I was looking for. It took a moment to see it but once I saw the "track",
> the nebula fell into place.
>
> Ed...
>
>
> JAB <blac...@nospam.regulus.mv.com> wrote in article <MPG.d8229daf...@zircon.mv.net>...
> |
> |
> | A recent article in Sky & Telescope (March 1997: "Observer's Page")
> | for this nebula, and have yet to catch a glimpse of it.
> |
> | I'm using my old trusty (not rusty ;-) orange c-8 and every combination
> | of eyepieces from 4mm-50mm in the attempt. I've even used my LPR
> | filter in the hopes that the added contrast would allow me the
> | sight. Still...no luck.
> |
> | I was wondering if others have spotted this as easily, and if there
> | are any "tips" to this object??
> |
> | John
> |
> | --
> | I have seen the Flame Nebula in 10x50s, 20x80s and a 16" Dob.
> |
christi...@yahoo.com
> I have seen the Flame Nebula in 10x50s, 20x80s and a 16" Dob. It doesn't "jump out at you" but once you see it, it is obvious.
> Especially the "track". In fact, the "track" was what I was looking for. It took a moment to see it but once I saw the "track",
> the nebula fell into place.
>
> Ed...
>
>
> JAB <blac...@nospam.regulus.mv.com> wrote in article <MPG.d8229daf...@zircon.mv.net>...
> |
> | Hello,
> |
> | A recent article in Sky & Telescope (March 1997: "Observer's Page")
> | prompted me to take another look for the Flame Nebula (NGC2024)
> | in Orion. Over the past two weeks, I have had the scope out looking
> | for this nebula, and have yet to catch a glimpse of it.
> |
> | I'm using my old trusty (not rusty ;-) orange c-8 and every combination
> | of eyepieces from 4mm-50mm in the attempt. I've even used my LPR
> | filter in the hopes that the added contrast would allow me the
> | sight. Still...no luck.
> |
> | T. Polakis of the S&T article states that he can see it in his 11x80's.
> | I was wondering if others have spotted this as easily, and if there
> | are any "tips" to this object??
> |
> | Clear skies,
> | John
> |
> |
> | --
Sketcher
That being said, I'll share one of my best visual experiences with the Flame Nebula:
This story begins with my first successful attempt at visually observing and sketching B33 (the Horsehead Nebula). In preparation I wore red goggles indoors, taking them off only after stepping outside to a magnitude 6.5 or better rural Montana sky. I set up a 13cm (5-inch) f/6 apo refractor (dubbed "Excalibur" by yours truly) without using even a dim red light - relying only on ambient starlight and natural skyglow to see by. I had memorized B33's location as well as the expected telescopic star field prior to going outside. A magnification of 110x was used -- without any filters.
Soon I acquired the FOV I had memorized, but it took a while longer before I began to suspect B33. In due time I was able to remove all doubt about seeing the Horsehead. Using the dimmest red light that I could still work by I completed my sketch. Upon returning to the eyepiece B33 was gone - until my observing eye had time to re-adjust. . .
After I was finished with the Horsehead I decided to take a 'quick' look at the nearby Flame (I prefer "Tank Track" but "Flame" is shorter to type). I was amazed! I had never before seen such a wealth of detail in the Flame! Apparently there's dark adaptation and there's "DARK ADAPTATION". I felt a strong erge to sketch the Flame Nebula, but I was just too tired after all the effort expended just to see the Horsehead. I didn't feel capable of expending the time and energy that would be needed to do justice to the amazingly detailed view I was seeing.
Reluctantly, I succumbed to the inevitable and forced myself to look away from the Flame and began packing up Excalibur, tripod and mount.
I'll never forget that view of the Flame Nebula. The combination of a dark, transparent sky; high contrast optics, a relatively high magnification and an enhanced level of dark adaptation all came together to transform a small, faint, fuzzy nebula into a large, bright, amazingly detailed celestial showpiece.
Tips:
Be patient. If you don't instantly see the Flame give yourself more time. Take some deep breaths. Eyes like oxygen. Allow your observing eye plenty of time to fully dark adapt. Don't allow your eye to see any light other than that of somewhat dim stars for at least 30 minutes. Use averted vision.
Looking at other posts: Naglers, while perhaps not the best (for light transmission) are certainly OK. The observations I mentioned above were made using a 7mm Nagler.
Experience and a dark sky can be difficult or even impossible to make up for. My first Flame sighting was made with an old Dynamax 8 SCT over 30 years ago. At first I thought I was seeing the Horsehead. With more experience and better charts things become easier to see and identify.
If all else fails, try attending a darksky starparty. You may have to observe the Flame in the early morning hours depending on the date, but that's better than not seeing it at all.
It's sad that our skies tend to only grow brighter . . .
Sketcher,
To sketch is to see.
On Saturday, March 1, 1997 JAB wrote:
> Hello,
>
> A recent article in Sky & Telescope (March 1997: "Observer's Page")
> prompted me to take another look for the Flame Nebula (NGC2024)
> in Orion. Over the past two weeks, I have had the scope out looking
> for this nebula, and have yet to catch a glimpse of it.
>
> I'm using my old trusty (not rusty ;-) orange c-8 and every combination
> of eyepieces from 4mm-50mm in the attempt. I've even used my LPR
> filter in the hopes that the added contrast would allow me the
> sight. Still...no luck.
>
> T. Polakis of the S&T article states that he can see it in his 11x80's.
> I was wondering if others have spotted this as easily, and if there
> are any "tips" to this object??
>
> Clear skies,
> John
>