Ivar Bardarson Stavanger 1364
Inger E Johansson
Knutson returned to Norway or not. Well for the former it's easy to
establish that he not only returned but also is noted to have delivered the
tithes which the Bishop of Bergen who had been delegacy by the Papal
representant to collect the tithes from Greenland and all areas under the
Gardar See.
As I presented to you in the groups before Ivar Bardson's main mission
wasn't to represent the Bishop of Gardar when he wasn't at Gardar. Ivar
Bardson/Bardarson's main mission was to collect the tithes. Which he did.
One of the documents for this is dated 25th June 1364.
Ivar is as so many times before in Latin text called 'Juaro Barderij' in
the original. In a contemporary copy it's written 'Ivarus Barderij' so make
no mistake at latest in Spring 1364 Ivar Bardarson had returned to Norway.
source: Diplomatarium Norwegicum Bind 4 nr 442
original in Dipl. Arn. Magn. fasc. 35. No. 13.
copy at the Vatican.
On net you can read it at:
http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=3914&s=339
&str=
Inger E
Prof. Marvel
coo coo.
Prof Marvel
Inger E Johansson
I take it that you aren't a Catholic. No wonder. I guess the church wouldn't
take you in the way you behave towards Sheila will take more than a
lifetime's prayers after weekly confessions.
Inger E
"Prof. Marvel" <ricl...@lycos.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:3ffc48db$0$77808$a046...@nnrp.fuse.net...
Steve Glines
> One of the documents for this is dated 25th June 1364.
> Ivar is as so many times before in Latin text called 'Juaro Barderij' in
> the original. In a contemporary copy it's written 'Ivarus Barderij' so make
> no mistake at latest in Spring 1364 Ivar Bardarson had returned to Norway.
>
> source: Diplomatarium Norwegicum Bind 4 nr 442
> original in Dipl. Arn. Magn. fasc. 35. No. 13.
> copy at the Vatican.
>
> On net you can read it at:
> http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=3914&s=339
> &str=
I don't suppose you could honor us with a rough translation.
Cheers
SG
Inger E Johansson
"Steve Glines" <sgl...@is-cs.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:ibohtb...@mail.is-cs.com...
Of course Steve I can. As for now I will give you a short summary, observe
below isn't a translation only a summery.
25th June 1364 Ivar Bardson is noted for having delivered the tithes for
Greenland's dioceses to the Pope's Nuntius og Collector Guido de Cruce.
------
[Ivar Bardson had since 1341 been working for the Bishop of Bergen as his
representant in collecting the tithes from all dioceses under Gardar]
As many of you who have followed the debate the last years knows the said
tithes noted in the Vatican archieves for 1350's and early 1360's include
not only Greenland but also tithes noted being delivered from Vinland.....
Inger E
>
> Cheers
> SG
>
Steve Glines
>>>no mistake at latest in Spring 1364 Ivar Bardarson had returned to
>
> Norway.
>
>>>source: Diplomatarium Norwegicum Bind 4 nr 442
>>>original in Dipl. Arn. Magn. fasc. 35. No. 13.
>>>copy at the Vatican.
>>>
>>>On net you can read it at:
>>>
>
> http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=3914&s=339
> below isn't a translation only a summery.
>
> 25th June 1364 Ivar Bardson is noted for having delivered the tithes for
> Greenland's dioceses to the Pope's Nuntius og Collector Guido de Cruce.
>
> ------
>
> [Ivar Bardson had since 1341 been working for the Bishop of Bergen as his
> representant in collecting the tithes from all dioceses under Gardar]
>
> As many of you who have followed the debate the last years knows the said
> tithes noted in the Vatican archieves for 1350's and early 1360's include
> not only Greenland but also tithes noted being delivered from Vinland.....
For completeness could we also have the reference for the tithes being
delivered from Vinland circa 1360?
May I also assume that Ivar Bardson is the only one mentioned for this
period as having collected tithes from Greenland and surrounds?
Is there any mention as to what the tithes were paid? and in what
currency (sheepskins, salted fish?)? Is there an itemized list of tithes
received from whom in that diploma? Would it have been customary to make
a copy of the receipts or would all the records have been kept in
Gondor? Do we know what happened to these records?
OK I'll quit now and watch the darts fly.
Cheers
SG
Inger E Johansson
I don't have exact nr and archieve part at hand. Will wait with my own
analyse of that till the book-manuscript finally is finished - I have found
five more sources from 14th and 15th c which I need to add. One of which
seems to be an original in a hand of a descenant to a Dutch Nobleman
participating in the Pining voyage which Columbus brother and his navigator
was on.... it so happens that the person I am trying to contact lives in
Linköping's area and that both I and my sister new that person well 35 years
ago.... had we known then....
>
> May I also assume that Ivar Bardson is the only one mentioned for this
> period as having collected tithes from Greenland and surrounds?
Yes. He had that mission given to him 1341. After 1364 he in other documents
is said to have sailed to help the Bishop of Skalholt. Up to my knowledge we
don't know if he made it to Iceland.
>
> Is there any mention as to what the tithes were paid? and in what
> currency (sheepskins, salted fish?)? Is there an itemized list of tithes
> received from whom in that diploma? Would it have been customary to make
> a copy of the receipts or would all the records have been kept in
> Gondor? Do we know what happened to these records?
Of course we know. But that happens to be 'forgotten knowledge' which hasn't
been associated to the Diploma I refered to in the discussions around the
context for KRS.
There was several articles and books written short after KRS had been found.
But in the light of the discussion about the value of the Icelandic Sagas,
if they could or couldn't be used at all for establishing the Vinland
location.
As all scholars in Sweden, Denmark and Norway knows there were verbal fights
between the brothers and Prof. Weibulls on one side and their contemporaries
in Scandinavia at that time. The works around the Vatican documents were
lost in or during that verbal fight.
One of the works which never been discussed here is:
Shipley, Marie A. [Brown]. The Norse Colonization in America by the Light of
the Vatican Finds. Lucerne: H. Keller's Foreign Printing Office, [1899].
Inger E
Njygaard
<inger_e....@notelia.com> wrote:
>
>"Steve Glines" <sgl...@is-cs.com> skrev i meddelandet
>news:ibohtb...@mail.is-cs.com...
>> Inger E Johansson wrote:
>>
>> > One of the documents for this is dated 25th June 1364.
>> > Ivar is as so many times before in Latin text called 'Juaro Barderij' in
>> > the original. In a contemporary copy it's written 'Ivarus Barderij' so make
>> > no mistake at latest in Spring 1364 Ivar Bardarson had returned to Norway.
>> >
>> > source: Diplomatarium Norwegicum Bind 4 nr 442
>> > original in Dipl. Arn. Magn. fasc. 35. No. 13.
>> > copy at the Vatican.
>> >
>> > On net you can read it at:
>> >
>http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=3914&s=339&str=
>> I don't suppose you could honor us with a rough translation.
>
>Of course Steve I can. As for now I will give you a short summary, observe
>below isn't a translation only a summery.
>
>25th June 1364 Ivar Bardson is noted for having delivered the tithes for
>Greenland's dioceses to the Pope's Nuntius og Collector Guido de Cruce.
I see Juaro Barderij mentioned in the document, but my latin really
isn't good enough... "Sir Juaro Barderij gathered twelve Bergensian
missionaries" ? A translation of the passage would be really helpful?
>------
>
>[Ivar Bardson had since 1341 been working for the Bishop of Bergen as his
>representant in collecting the tithes from all dioceses under Gardar]
>
>As many of you who have followed the debate the last years knows the said
>tithes noted in the Vatican archieves for 1350's and early 1360's include
>not only Greenland but also tithes noted being delivered from Vinland.....
But that's sensational? References?
...
Inger E Johansson
"Njygaard" <Nando...@hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:adkqvvo48dfk1p0kf...@4ax.com...
I gave you one referens to an English scholar work about that....
Didn't you read?
Anyhow as I said full information will be told later on. For the moment you
will have to go to the Library and try to get hold of that book from 1899 or
of any of the other works dealing with those Vatican papers. Btw some of
them are same Vatican papers Thor Heierdahl refered to the other year....
Extraordinary? Well I guess it's more surprising then what it looks like.
Actually it places Ivar Bardson in NA around 1360...... guess you have
forgotten but that has been one of the questions around KRS that no one seen
any 'proofs' for that.....
but if the Papal Church got their tithes from the years short after mid
1350, which we know they did
and
if Ivar Bardson is said to have been acknowledge in front of the Pope's
Cardinal for delivering the tithes,
which he is in ref. Diploma (btw can't you read the Norse text so you can
have a clue what the text deals with?)
and
if Ivar Bardson in 1341 was given the mission to go to Greenland to collect
the Papal Church tithes in all dioceses under Gardar in Greenland, which we
know he and no one else was given the mission before 1364;
and
if the Vatican archieves have notes that the Vinland tithes was payed for
said years.
It certainly places Ivar Bardson in NA in early 1360's.
Inger E
>
> ...
>
David B.
Njygaard wrote in message ...
>On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 21:56:15 GMT, "Inger E Johansson"
><inger_e....@notelia.com> wrote:
>>
>>25th June 1364 Ivar Bardson is noted for having delivered the tithes for
>>Greenland's dioceses to the Pope's Nuntius og Collector Guido de Cruce.
>
>I see Juaro Barderij mentioned in the document, but my latin really
>isn't good enough... "Sir Juaro Barderij gathered twelve Bergensian
>missionaries" ? A translation of the passage would be really helpful?
All you need to know is that the document doesn't mention Greenland (or its
diocese of Gardar) at all. Ivar Bardarson, canon of the church of the
Twelve Apostles in Bergen, was in 1364 involved with the collection of the
"Peter's pence" levy for the completely different diocese of Stavanger. He
was almost certainly the same Ivar Bardarson who had been in Greenland-
big deal.
David B.
Njygaard
<inger_e....@notelia.com> wrote:
...
>I gave you one referens to an English scholar work about that....
>Didn't you read?
Oops... brainfart there. I see the reference, but aren't there any
more, or newer ones?
>Anyhow as I said full information will be told later on. For the moment you
>will have to go to the Library and try to get hold of that book from 1899 or
>of any of the other works dealing with those Vatican papers. Btw some of
>them are same Vatican papers Thor Heierdahl refered to the other year....
Well, that was what I was planning to do. UiO seems to have only three
works by Shipley/brown, two of which seem relevant:
The Icelandic discoveries of America : or honour to whom honour is due
/ by Marie A. Brown. London : Trybner, 1887.
And
Suppressed historical facts : roman catholic evidence confirming Leif
Erikson's discovery of America / edited by Mrs. John B. Shipley (Marie
A. Brown). New York : John B, Alden, 1890.
Would any of these substitute? And are there any other sources on the
subject, confirming or rejecting? Any sources which are less dated?
>Extraordinary? Well I guess it's more surprising then what it looks like.
>Actually it places Ivar Bardson in NA around 1360...... guess you have
>forgotten but that has been one of the questions around KRS that no one seen
>any 'proofs' for that.....
>but if the Papal Church got their tithes from the years short after mid
>1350, which we know they did
>and
>if Ivar Bardson is said to have been acknowledge in front of the Pope's
>Cardinal for delivering the tithes,
>which he is in ref. Diploma (btw can't you read the Norse text so you can
>have a clue what the text deals with?)
If the relevant part was in Norse, yes. But the text in your link was
in latin, which I'm less than fluent in, to say the least. The only
text in a nordic language I've spotted is a short introduction in 19th
century Norwegian, reading
"The popish Nuntius and collector Guido de Cruce gives Bishop Botolf
of Stavanger and his Chapter reciept for paid Peters' money and other
taxes to the roman Chair".
Which is not very enlightening in regard to our subject.
>and if Ivar Bardson in 1341 was given the mission to go to Greenland to collect
>the Papal Church tithes in all dioceses under Gardar in Greenland, which we
>know he and no one else was given the mission before 1364; and
>if the Vatican archieves have notes that the Vinland tithes was payed for said years.
>It certainly places Ivar Bardson in NA in early 1360's.
I see your point clearly. But having the main reference available, I'd
really like to see some pointers to a bit of pro and contra. A lone
writer does not make a discovery.
...
Inger E Johansson
> On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 15:29:06 GMT, "Inger E Johansson"
> <inger_e....@notelia.com> wrote:
>
> ...
>
> >I gave you one referens to an English scholar work about that....
> >Didn't you read?
>
> Oops... brainfart there. I see the reference, but aren't there any
> more, or newer ones?
Oh yes, there are. But appart from them Heierdahl and his friend refered to
the other year I keep that part of my studies close to my breast for the
moment.
Anyhow I do have other referenses and information I can send you. But
observe for your eyes only for the moment, parts of it comes from other
scholars studies and works and at least two articles and one book is under
way in US + two documentary films I know of. So if you want it you must send
me an other mailaddress then the hotmail one you have because my experience
is that hotmail will not accept such large files as I those I need to send
you.
>
> >Anyhow as I said full information will be told later on. For the moment
you
> >will have to go to the Library and try to get hold of that book from 1899
or
> >of any of the other works dealing with those Vatican papers. Btw some of
> >them are same Vatican papers Thor Heierdahl refered to the other year....
>
> Well, that was what I was planning to do. UiO seems to have only three
> works by Shipley/brown, two of which seem relevant:
>
> The Icelandic discoveries of America : or honour to whom honour is due
> / by Marie A. Brown. London : Trybner, 1887.
>
> And
>
> Suppressed historical facts : roman catholic evidence confirming Leif
> Erikson's discovery of America / edited by Mrs. John B. Shipley (Marie
> A. Brown). New York : John B, Alden, 1890.
>
> Would any of these substitute? And are there any other sources on the
> subject, confirming or rejecting? Any sources which are less dated?
No. But I have located the book and so can you if you go to a University
Library.
>
> >Extraordinary? Well I guess it's more surprising then what it looks like.
> >Actually it places Ivar Bardson in NA around 1360...... guess you have
> >forgotten but that has been one of the questions around KRS that no one
seen
> >any 'proofs' for that.....
> >but if the Papal Church got their tithes from the years short after mid
> >1350, which we know they did
> >and
> >if Ivar Bardson is said to have been acknowledge in front of the Pope's
> >Cardinal for delivering the tithes,
> >which he is in ref. Diploma (btw can't you read the Norse text so you can
> >have a clue what the text deals with?)
>
> If the relevant part was in Norse, yes. But the text in your link was
> in latin, which I'm less than fluent in, to say the least. The only
> text in a nordic language I've spotted is a short introduction in 19th
> century Norwegian, reading
In those days all documents between the Bishop's sees and the Papal Church
normally were written in Latin.....
If you look for the Cardinals name in documents like the diploma I refer to
you normally will find works about their visiting and 'collecting' the
tithes from the representatives in the Nordic countries. Some books are
translated into Norwegian and Swedish. You will not find them in the
registers on net because the works are normally written before 1930 and
their are many books on handwritten cards in the University Libraries at
this point not added to the digital databases.....
>
> "The popish Nuntius and collector Guido de Cruce gives Bishop Botolf
> of Stavanger and his Chapter reciept for paid Peters' money and other
> taxes to the roman Chair".
Yes and if you go below in the text you will find that Ivar Bardson
Bergensis got a reciept for paid Peters'money as well. (For Ivar Bardson's
work as a represetnative in Greenland for the Bishop of Bergen collecting
tithes please look at my earlier articles to the groups Ivar Bardson part
1-4)
>
> Which is not very enlightening in regard to our subject.
Oh yes the text is.
>
> >and if Ivar Bardson in 1341 was given the mission to go to Greenland to
collect
> >the Papal Church tithes in all dioceses under Gardar in Greenland, which
we
> >know he and no one else was given the mission before 1364; and
> >if the Vatican archieves have notes that the Vinland tithes was payed for
said years.
> >It certainly places Ivar Bardson in NA in early 1360's.
>
> I see your point clearly. But having the main reference available, I'd
> really like to see some pointers to a bit of pro and contra. A lone
> writer does not make a discovery.
No but I suggest you look in Bardarson, Det gamle Gronlands beskrivelse
edited by Finnur Jonsson 1930 as well as in all referenses I provided in
Ivar Bardsson part 1-4 respectively in the book referens I send which we
discussed above.
Inger E
>
> ...
>
Göran Bäärnhielm
In the name of the Lord, Amen. In the year 1364 of His nativity, second
indiction, June 25, in the second year of the papacy of the holy father
and lord Urban V, may everybody know, that, in the personal presence of
me, notary public, and of the undersigned witnesses, the venerable and
judicious lord Guido de Cruce, vicar of St Andrew of Exsociis (where?),
diocese of Mirepoix, papal nuncio to the realms of Denmark, Sweden and
Norway, and by apostolic authority specially appointed collector of all
amounts of money, goods, dues and all other things belonging to the
Roman Curia or the Apostolic Chamber for whatever reason, confessed and
acknowledged that he possessed and had received in counting, in the name
of the Roman church, from the venerable father bishop Botulf and the
chapter of Stavanger, through the hands of lord Eyulf Marci, canon of
Stavanger, assigned by them for the collection of the things written
below: in false and rejected Norwegian common coins 50 marks and 17
shillings, furthermore 7 shillings sterling, 7½ sterlings, 2½ Lübeckers,
furthermore 707 calf-skins, 1079 goatskins, 1400 sheepskins. They
declared that they had received these together with the said marks and
shillings in the name of the Roman church, because of the annual tax or
Peter's pence, collected by them in the city and diocese of Stavanger,
and this in the preceding 7 years, i.e. from 1356 to the present 1364
inclusive.
Furthermore the lord nuncio declared to have received from from the
lords bishop and chapter and said Eyulf, of the remaining four-year
tithe, formerly imposed by pope Clemens VI, i.e. for the appropriate
support of the burdens leaning upon the said chamber and the great
prince lord Magnus, illustrious king of Sweden and Norway, 2 gold écus,
one of the emperor and one of Philip, former king of France, 4 shillings
sterling, 5 sterlings and 1½ mark pure silver in small fragments,
Norwegian weight, as well as 2 marks discarded Norwegian coins, weighed
by Norwegian weight, which makes 5 ... shillings 11 pence.
The lord nuncio, in the name of the Roman church and the Apostolic
chamber, discharged, liberated and absolved totally the bishop and
chapter and Eyulf and the clergy of the city and diocese of Stavanger,
their heirs and successors, for these amounts of coins, skins and other
things, which had been delivered and assigned by them. Regarding the
Peter's pennies, which still remain unpaid by a certain part of the
parochial clergy, and also the four-year tithe concerning the Apostolic
chamber, and partly remaining unpaid, the Apostolic chamber's right of
acting and reclaiming these, until the amount of 300 marks, will remain
undamaged in the future for him and his successors in the office of
collectorship.
To the greater affirmation of these above-mentioned matters, the lord
nuncio attached the seal of his office to this public document. Of all
these above-written matters, the lord bishop and nuncio asked to have
one or more public documents made, by me the undersigned notary public,
for themselves and for all others who have interest in this, so many as
will be necessary, similar and with the same contents.
This was performed in the domicile court of the bishop of Stavanger, in
his chamber, year, day, month, indiction and papacy as above, in the
presence of prudent men lord Ivar Barderson, canon of the Twelve
Apostles in Bergen, and nobleman Bernard, son of Andrew, from the
diocese of Nimes, specially summoned witnesses to these things. Date ...
as above.
And to me, Ludolf Yrkesleve, Magdeburger clerk, notary public with
apostolic authority, who, in the said reception, confession,
recognition, quittance, liberation, sealing for the scrutiny and
declaration of these things, when these things were performed, I was
present with the above-mentioned witnesses, and I took notes of
everything and I edited this public document and wrote it with my own
hand and signed it with my sign, on request as mentioned above.
-
That was really fun! Somewhat simplified.
Göran Bäärnhielm
Stockholm, Sweden
goran.ba...@linux.nu
Inger E Johansson skrev:
-
Göran Bäärnhielm
Also a couple of other corrections, inserted below.
Göran Bäärnhielm skrev:
>
> Dipl. Norveg. 4:442, Stavanger 1364 June 25
> In the name of the Lord, Amen. In the year 1364 of His nativity, second
> indiction, June 25, in the second year of the papacy of the holy father
> and lord Urban V, may everybody know, that, in the personal presence of
> me, notary public, and of the undersigned witnesses, the venerable and
> judicious lord Guido de Cruce, jurist, vicar of St Andrew of Exsociis (where?),
> And (in the presence of) me, Ludolf Yrkesleve, Magdeburger clerk, notary public with
--