50,000 soldiers believed buried by a cataclysmic sandstorm in 525 B.C. - army of Persian king Cambyses II
crunch
Extract -
“We have found the first archaeological evidence of a story reported
by the Greek historian Herodotus,” explained Dario Del Bufalo.
-----
Comments, please.
-----
David Christainsen
SolomonW
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33791672/ns/technology_and_science-science/
>
> Extract -
> ļæ½We have found the first archaeological evidence of a story reported
> by the Greek historian Herodotus,ļæ½ explained Dario Del Bufalo.
>
> -----
>
> Comments, please.
>
> -----
>
> David Christainsen
If true it would be a great find. Although it does seem 50,000 is a lot of
men to be sent for such a mission. That is like 10 legions.
Kendall K Down
ups.com>
crunch <pchris...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33791672/ns/technology_and_science-science/
Interesting.
Ken Down
--
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia's premier archaeological magazine |
| http://www.diggingsonline.com |
========================================================
SolomonW
> In message <29889121-0c12-42fc...@z41g2000yqz.googlegro
> ups.com>
> crunch <pchris...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33791672/ns/technology_and_science-science/
>
> Interesting.
>
> Ken Down
Indeed
If you check this link it shows how they found it.
http://news.discovery.com/archaeology/cambyses-army-remains-sahara.html
Also checkout the video, as it is worth a look
JTEM
SolomonW <Solom...@nospamMail.com> wrote:
> If you check this link it shows how they found it.
>
> http://news.discovery.com/archaeology/cambyses-army-remains-sahara.html
>
> Also checkout the video, as it is worth a look
And you fail to see the parallels with the claims of
Exodus?
Heck, they even use the word "Drowned"...
SolomonW
Shut up fool!
JTEM
SolomonW <Solom...@nospamMail.com> wrote:
http://news.discovery.com/archaeology/cambyses-army-remains-sahara.html
> Shut up fool!
You failed to answer the question. Do you or do
you not see the parallels with the Exodus story?
As I pointed out, they even go so far as to use the
word "Drowned."
Tiglath
> SolomonW <Solom...@nospamMail.com> wrote:
>
> http://news.discovery.com/archaeology/cambyses-army-remains-sahara.html
>
> > Shut up fool!
>
> You failed to answer the question.
Shut your pie hole, twit.
crunch
> On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 07:43:59 GMT, Kendall K Down wrote:
> > ups.com>
> > crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33791672/ns/technology_and_science-science/
>
> > Interesting.
>
> > Ken Down
>
> Indeed
>
> If you check this link it shows how they found it.
>
> http://news.discovery.com/archaeology/cambyses-army-remains-sahara.html
>
> Also checkout the video, as it is worth a look
Thanks for the tip -
http://news.discovery.com/videos/archaeology-ancient-lost-army-found.html
Italian archaeologists present their case that the lost Persian army
of Cambyses II has been found in this video at Discovery News.
The two Italian archaeologists had a different hypothesis
from conventional thinking as to the correct route of the
army in Egypt and they found likely artefacts as evidence.
-----
David Christainsen
JTEM
Tiglath
You are a talkative bitch, aren't you?
Dom
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33791672/ns/technology_and_science-science/
>
> Extract -
> “We have found the first archaeological evidence of a story reported
> by the Greek historian Herodotus,” explained Dario Del Bufalo.
I would appreciate the reference to where Herodotus writes about this
lost army.
Bravo, Dario Del Bufalo and colleagues. Viva L'Italia!
Lee Olsen
> On Nov 9, 3:42 pm, crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33791672/ns/technology_and_science-science/
>
> > Extract -
> > “We have found the first archaeological evidence of a story reported
> > by the Greek historian Herodotus,” explained Dario Del Bufalo.
>
> I would appreciate the reference to where Herodotus writes about this
> lost army.
http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.3.iii.html
crunch
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks for the reference.
David Christainsen
crunch
Here is follow-up by "Time" with additional details -
The Vanished Army: Solving an Ancient Egyptian Mystery
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1938822,00.html
-----
David Christainsen
crunch
This report bothers me because it casts strong
doubt on the brothers Castiglioni -
http://rogueclassicism.com/2009/11/13/cambyses-lost-army-found-dont-eat-that-elmer/
-----
David Christainsen
JTEM
Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net> wrote:
> You are a
Oh, sure, that was... *Yawn*
....so clever of you.
Anyhow, still nothing interesting, humorous,
original or on-topic.
Congratulations. Your parents must be very proud.
JTEM
crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Here is follow-up by "Time" with additional details -
I can't think of anything less noteworthy than the fact that
over-hyped press reports centering on "Proof" of an ancient
claim might be less than accurate.
This is one reason why I concentrated solely on the fact that
the story parallels part of the Exodus tale. "Accuracy" isn't
an issue in this context, merely the presence of the myth.
P.S. And there was at least one other "Documentary" on
the lost Army which I believe your story missed (though I
admit to getting bored with it's beating a dead horse)...
some years ago, and I could have sworn it was a lot longer
ago than 2004, there was someone who made a
documentary on the subject of his search for the lost Army,
which included one of the first ground-penetrating RADAR
systems I had ever seen for archaeological use.
They may have also had an ultralight.
Lee Olsen
>
> This report bothers me because it casts strong
> doubt on the brothers Castiglioni -
>
> http://rogueclassicism.com/2009/11/13/cambyses-lost-army-found-dont-e...
While I thank the kid (student) for digging up some interesting URLs,
if this is all the brothers have to worry about for a critic, they are
looking better
than ever.
So, what part of the kid's report bothers you the most?
PS, I wonder what his major is, basketweaving?
>
> -----
>
> David Christainsen
crunch
Cautions and suspicions -
Tourist companies have been using the Lost Army
to sell holidays to would-be explorers for years
-----
http://egyptology.blogspot.com/2009/11/lost-army-and-other-sites-mentioned.html
"The greater problem is when work is conducted without either
authorisation or clear signs of responsible methodologies, and when
the work is invasive (i.e. items are disturbed at a site, removed or
otherwise impacted by modern investigation). The obvious example from
the Castaglioni investigation is the the TL dating of ceramics) This
oversteps the line. On having discovered the skeletons and artefacts
the brothers appear to have provided information to the authorities
but went ahead with a Discovery article anyway, presenting their
investigations as a bona fide archaeological mission, which on the
available evidence it clearly wasn't."
-----
Press Release- Alleged Finds in Western Desert - Zahi Hawass's blog
http://www.drhawass.com/blog/press-release-alleged-finds-western-desert?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+Drhawasscom-New+(DrHawass.com+-+What
-----
"So I do some poking around, and while the Castiglioni brothers are
touted as archaeologists, they are, it seems, filmmakers. They are
included as exemplars of “mondo” (a.k.a. “Shockumentary”) films in the
English version of Wikipedia. The Italian listing for their names
reveals their education background is economics/commerce. Not a good
sign."
-----
Cambyses’ Still Lost Army
http://rambambashi.wordpress.com/2009/11/13/cambyses-not-so-lost-army/
"There are two reasons to be suspicious." -
1) "In the first place, Herodotus is not a very reliable author."
2) "Even if we assume that [the set of Persian weapons]
are indeed Persian, it is a serious logical fallacy to assume
that they belong to soldiers of Cambyses’ campaign."
-----
David Christainsen
Lee Olsen
> On Nov 19, 11:09 pm, Lee Olsen <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 17, 3:14 pm, crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > This report bothers me because it casts strong
> > > doubt on the brothers Castiglioni -
>
> > >http://rogueclassicism.com/2009/11/13/cambyses-lost-army-found-dont-e...
>
> > While I thank the kid (student) for digging up some interesting URLs,
> > if this is all the brothers have to worry about for a critic, they are
> > looking better
> > than ever.
>
> > So, what part of the kid's report bothers you the most?
> > PS, I wonder what his major is, basketweaving?
> >...
>
> Cautions and suspicions -
>
> Tourist companies have been using the Lost Army
> to sell holidays to would-be explorers for years
The free enterprise system is what made the US
what it is today, not archaeologists. Egypt should
start taking some notes.
I would guess that 90% all new discoveries are made
as a result of this system at work, in the US anyway.
What little damage that is done during this process
hardly outweighs the good of the whole. The real
damage is done by well-meaning or not so well-meaning
archaeologists, with premits, that never publish and
this is a substantial number. It actually amounts to
nothing more than theft of public trust.
>
> -----
>
> http://egyptology.blogspot.com/2009/11/lost-army-and-other-sites-ment...
>
> "The greater problem is when work is conducted without either
> authorisation or clear signs of responsible methodologies, and when
> the work is invasive (i.e. items are disturbed at a site, removed or
> otherwise impacted by modern investigation). The obvious example from
> the Castaglioni investigation is the the TL dating of ceramics) This
> oversteps the line.
No, it does not overstep the line in this case, it is a case of the
critic not
understanding all sites are not equal. There is a vast difference
between
secondary disposition, thousands of broken pottery chards of unknown
origin, in a secondary context weighed, against say, a single
possibly rare
skeleton find in an obvious primary context. No one will ever
reconstruct
all those broken pots, only a statistically valid number will be
needed and
conjoined for scientific study, the vast majority will remain on
site.
A perfect example of this is the Catwalk site at Olorgesalie, Kenya,
where
thousands of handaxes were left in place after study.
> On having discovered the skeletons and artefacts
> the brothers appear to have provided information to the authorities
> but went ahead with a Discovery article anyway, presenting their
> investigations as a bona fide archaeological mission, which on the
> available evidence it clearly wasn't."
Liar, the brothers clearly stated (if you read enough of these news
articles) they did not have a permit to dig, that the site(s)
warranted
further investigation.
>
> -----
>
> Press Release- Alleged Finds in Western Desert - Zahi Hawass's bloghttp://www.drhawass.com/blog/press-release-alleged-finds-western-dese...
What about it? All after the fact. The last expedition by Castaglioni
brothers was in 2002,
the permit "since" 2002 says Hawass.
>
> -----
>
> http://rogueclassicism.com/
>
> "So I do some poking around, and while the Castiglioni brothers are
> touted as archaeologists, they are, it seems, filmmakers. They are
> included as exemplars of “mondo” (a.k.a. “Shockumentary”) films in the
> English version of Wikipedia. The Italian listing for their names
> reveals their education background is economics/commerce. Not a good
> sign."
ROFL.
Castiglioni, Alfredo and Angelo Castiglioni. 1997. Berenice Panchrysos
(Deraheib-Allaqi): la "città dell'oro"del Deserto Nubiano Sudanese.
CRIPEL 17/2: 153-162.
ROFL some more. If a commerce education is making the great
discoveries,
what does that make the brain-dead, whining-armchair archaeologists
who criticise, but can't find anything on their own? Maybe they ought
to
get a degree in commerce?
>
> -----
>
> Cambyses’ Still Lost Armyhttp://rambambashi.wordpress.com/2009/11/13/cambyses-not-so-lost-army/
>
> "There are two reasons to be suspicious." -
>
> 1) "In the first place, Herodotus is not a very reliable author."
BS, the problem was his sources. They were hearsay from several
generations after the alleged army, and Herodotus acknowleged this
fact by simply stating "Thus, according to the Ammonians.."
This to me implies he was leaving the truth of the matter up
to the readers.
>
> 2) "Even if we assume that [the set of Persian weapons]
> are indeed Persian, it is a serious logical fallacy to assume
> that they belong to soldiers of Cambyses’ campaign."
The logical fallacy is being made by the schoolboy.
Science also works on the priciple of Occam's razor.
If there were a competing account named and being
debated, then yes, one could not rule out other
possibilities, but to speculate that others might exist,
is just that, speculation. You assume the simplist
explanation and at the moment, Herodotus is it.
There is nothing wrong with making predictions in a
hypothesis and that's all the Castiglioni brothers are
calling it. Then you test to see if you can't falsify
the prediction. Looks to me that the SCA is doing just
that.
crunch
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks for your viewpoint, you convinced me. I will follow
this story for the future.
David Christainsen
rogueclassicist
for the record, I'm not a kid ...
david meadows
Lee Olsen
That's even worse...an adult that thinks like one.
Matt Giwer
Without arguing how many men constitute an army disappearances are
not uncommon. During the 1930s a Chinese army disappeared during their civil
war -- Charles Fort, Lo! if I remember correctly. During WWII a German
division disappeared which was the basis for the horror movie, The Keep.
So far as I am aware these disappearances are all considered
mysteries and none have been traced backwards to see if they really existed.
1) A military feint to distract the enemy but the people who invented
the army did not survive to report their invention of the army.
1a) The feint backfired and lead to defeat and they kept quiet about it.
2) In the old days (US civil war days) a general was the man who raised
an army and was paid by the number of men who "passed muster." A corrupt
"general" working with a corrupt musterman could split the payment.
3) Keeping in mind Charles Fort, he worked from newspaper clippings.
During the US Civil War there was a major battle reported in all the papers
that never happened between two armies that never existed. If was the
invention of a stringer trying to get a permanent position on some
newspaper.
4) What constitutes a disappearance? Consider Napolean's retreat from
Moscow. The small fraction of survivors certainly resulted in the complete
annialation of some large groups some of which were certainly unaccounted.
It was understandable and not considered mysterious.
5) It was not until modern times when people tried to field huge armies
that the exaggerations of ancient numbers (used as adjectives not as
ennumeration) was exposed. 50,000 is an adjective not a head count.
6) If someone wants to do the research they can find reasonably good
records of the amount of "sand" left by storms from the Sahara to Beijing
going back at least a century in all of them and likely a couple thousand
years from China. If anyone finds five feet dropped by a storm then a storm
of the century just might have smothered standing men if they were too dumb
to climb on top of the falling sand. From what I have seen, discounting what
gets blown against a wall, an inch or two is a big storm.
6a) This does not discount being in the wrong camp at the wrong time
when a storm shifted a dune. Here I have to ask how quickly it could happen
that men could not stay on top of it. OK, food and water stays behind and
they die of thirst later and are buried in a follow-up storm.
6a1) The account of the survivors did not survive, was not recorded in
the first place, was repressed for political reasons to incite the populace
for a reveng war or for some other reason.
--
Atheism dignifies theism. There is no special name for
those who do not believe in faeries.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4190
http://www.giwersworld.org/bible/sewer-bible.phtml a15
Mon Nov 23 06:42:39 EST 2009
Kendall K Down
Matt Giwer <matt@localhost> wrote:
> 6) If someone wants to do the research they can find reasonably good
> records of the amount of "sand" left by storms from the Sahara to Beijing
> going back at least a century in all of them and likely a couple thousand
> years from China. If anyone finds five feet dropped by a storm then a storm
> of the century just might have smothered standing men if they were too dumb
> to climb on top of the falling sand. From what I have seen, discounting what
> gets blown against a wall, an inch or two is a big storm.
What nonsense you talk, Matt the Pratt. People wander around in the
storm, collapse from dehydration, sand builds up against and then over
their prostrate bodies. No one has ever suggested five feet of sand
dropped on the entire army from a great height.
JTEM
Kendall K Down <webmas...@diggingsonline.com> wrote:
> Matt Giwer <matt@localhost> wrote:
>
> > 6) If someone wants to do the research they
> > can find reasonably good records of the amount
> > of "sand" left by storms from the Sahara to Beijing
> > going back at least a century in all of them and
> > likely a couple thousand years from China. If
> > anyone finds five feet dropped by a storm then a
> > storm of the century just might have smothered
> > standing men if they were too dumb to climb on top
> > of the falling sand.
> What nonsense you talk, Matt the Pratt. People wander
> around in the storm, collapse from dehydration, sand
> builds up against and then over their prostrate
> bodies. No one has ever suggested five feet of sand
> dropped on the entire army from a great height.
You're both just rationalizing -- making the best
argument you can in defense of your view -- instead of
allowing the facts to lead you to a conclusion.
So let's instead look at the facts....
Turns out that Giwer is *Way* off base.
In China, for example, we find the remains of
dinosaurs which were apparently buried in sand
storms & eventually dessicated.
But you're equally off base here. Although it
isn't difficult to image an army to cease to
exist because of a natural event like a powerful
sand storm, that's not to say that everyone would
have or could have died.
*Zero* survivors is unimaginable. If this weren't
the case then desert areas would quite simply be
de-populated by every large sand storm, and they
clearly are not.
Could it shatter the coherency of a group, like an
army, reducing it to individuals all fighting for
their own survival? Sure. But even spending some
quality time on Google I can't find reference to
a sandstorm ever killing more than a few hundred
people.
There simply is no reason to believe that tens of
thousands could have died in such a storm.
Broken up... picked off by an organized enemy
taking advantage of the situation... sure... but
not wiped out by such a storm.
There is no evidence that it can happen.
Matt Giwer
> In message <Pine.LNX.4.64.09...@dawn.a.b.c>
> Matt Giwer <matt@localhost> wrote:
>> 6) If someone wants to do the research they can find reasonably good
>> records of the amount of "sand" left by storms from the Sahara to Beijing
>> going back at least a century in all of them and likely a couple thousand
>> years from China. If anyone finds five feet dropped by a storm then a
>> storm of the century just might have smothered standing men if they were
>> too dumb to climb on top of the falling sand. From what I have seen,
>> discounting what gets blown against a wall, an inch or two is a big
>> storm.
> What nonsense you talk, Matt the Pratt. People wander around in the storm,
> collapse from dehydration, sand builds up against and then over their
> prostrate bodies. No one has ever suggested five feet of sand dropped on
> the entire army from a great height.
Whereas a seasoned army, seeing the storm approaching pitches tent
and sits it out, a numbnuts crook like yourself would start walking.
--
"As a discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison
involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." -- Godwin's Law
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4196
http://www.giwersworld.org/antisem/GAZA-pics/ a13
Kendall K Down
ups.com>
JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> *Zero* survivors is unimaginable. If this weren't
> the case then desert areas would quite simply be
> de-populated by every large sand storm, and they
> clearly are not.
The deficiency of your imagination is your own problem. People who
survive sandstorms are locals who know what to do. Persians were not a
desert people.
JTEM
Kendall K Down <webmas...@diggingsonline.com> wrote:
> JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > *Zero* survivors is unimaginable. If this weren't
> > the case then desert areas would quite simply be
> > de-populated by every large sand storm, and they
> > clearly are not.
>
> The deficiency of your imagination
Let's solve this problem right now: Post a cite to a
sand storm which killed, say, 5 thousand people...
one-tenth as many people.
Matt Giwer
...
> Turns out that Giwer is *Way* off base.
>
> In China, for example, we find the remains of
> dinosaurs which were apparently buried in sand
> storms & eventually dessicated.
It is difficult to imagine what connection you make between weather in recent
times and 100 million years ago.
--
The Holocaust is no worse then Iran having an atom bomb.
Israel says so.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4191
http://www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml a16
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. a16
Fri Nov 27 04:41:50 EST 2009
JTEM
Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> JTEM wrote:
>
> > Turns out that Giwer is *Way* off base.
>
> > In China, for example, we find the remains of
> > dinosaurs which were apparently buried in sand
> > storms & eventually dessicated.
>
> It is difficult to imagine what connection you make
> between weather in recent times and 100 million years
> ago.
I know you're a psycho, but would you care to explain
the changes to sand storms you imagine throughout
the ages?
We're not talking about weather patterns here -- which
have changed -- we're talking about specific weather
phenomena -- which never changed.
Tiglath
The psycho can run squares around you when it comes to logic.
Sick of all the attention ADR is getting, JTEM is out to show he is no
slouch when it comes to making stupid comments.
So specific weather phenomena never changed, right?
Hilarious.
JTEM
Matt Giwer
On the assumption you are not trying to make this into a pissing
contest I will take a shot at it.
The temperature was some 8-10 degrees warmer sufficient to have
tropical forests in sub-polar region. Warmer temperatures indicate stronger
storms of all kinds. Stronger takes longer to start and longer to end.
Notice the estimated temperature difference cannot account for the northern
extent of tropical forests so there was something else involved.
One might guess ocean currents traveling unobstructed from pole to
pole as there was only one ocean. This suggests a higher sea level due to
water temperature alone. Due to the absence of any glaciers the sea level
was higher for this reason also. With both these factors there was a greater
water area for storms to grow.
There were no Himalayas to get in the way of tropical storms. Give
the tropical temperatures in sub-polar regions hurricanes would be year
around and able to grow in strength all the way to the poles.
As for land storms the Americas, Eurasia and Africa were one
continent. Stronger storms would carry more dust and last longer. Thus total
dust transport would be naturally greater. With the higher temperatures
comes a greater differential between land and sea and while there is more
sea there is also a greater contiguous land mass to accentuate the
temperature difference.
Further the animals back then were no brighter than criminal tour
guides and may or may not have evolved a good survival strategy for
surviving the rare major storms. Hunkering down would be good enough for
most storms particularly when protecting a nest and young.
In addition the majority of the animals were not suitable for modern
movies. In the case of dinos the majority were in the 20-40 lb range giving
them a height of a small to medium dog. While ugly they were unsuitable for
terrorizing Tokyo or wowing the kiddies in museums. Lizards tended to
crocadilian form so no matter how large they were not very "tall." Sand
requirements are not all the great in either case.
Of course you can argument these differences in the other direction
which is not the point. Absent experimental climatology there is no way to
determine what prediction, if any, is correct. It is not wise to make
generalizations of similar weather from that long ago.
--
The amount of sleep the average person needs is one snooze more.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4200
http://www.giwersworld.org/antisem/GAZA-pics/ a13
Fri Nov 27 22:54:43 EST 2009
rogueclassicist
oooooo ... a troll ... my daddy told me about you! In any event, see
now Gary Chavetz in the Huffington Post:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gary-s-chafetz/the-lost-armyfound-at-las_b_372293.html
Matt Giwer
While that is trivial to do, I do not. Name and header data may
change but no one could be confused by them.
--
If computers had a sense of irony they would be genies.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4192
http://www.giwersworld.org/palestine/answers.phtml a9
Sun Nov 29 10:42:25 EST 2009
Lee Olsen
> On Nov 22, 10:23 am, Lee Olsen <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 22, 5:27 am, rogueclassicist <rogueclassic...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 19, 11:09 pm, Lee Olsen <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Nov 17, 3:14 pm, crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > This report bothers me because it casts strong
> > > > > doubt on the brothers Castiglioni -
>
> > > > >http://rogueclassicism.com/2009/11/13/cambyses-lost-army-found-dont-e...
>
> > > > While I thank the kid (student) for digging up some interesting URLs,
> > > > if this is all the brothers have to worry about for a critic, they are
> > > > looking better
> > > > than ever.
>
> > > > So, what part of the kid's report bothers you the most?
> > > > PS, I wonder what his major is, basketweaving?
>
> > > > > -----
>
> > > > > David Christainsen
>
> > > for the record, I'm not a kid ...
>
> > > david meadows
>
> > That's even worse...an adult that thinks like one.
>
> oooooo ... a troll ... my daddy told me about you!
The kid is back!
>In any event, see
> now Gary Chavetz in the Huffington Post:
>
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gary-s-chafetz/the-lost-armyfound-at-la...
Huffington is supposed to mean something?
http://tinyurl.com/yh2a958
"Piero Pruneti, editor of Archeologia Viva,
Italy's most important archaeology magazine,
is also impressed by the team's work.
"Judging from their documentary, the
Castiglioni's have made a very promising
finding," Prunetic told Discovery News.
"Indeed, their expeditions are all based
on a careful study of the landscape...An
in-depth exploration of the area is
certainly needed!"
Whether or not the Castiglioni brothers have
found anything "promising" doesn't make
the trolling crap and idiot logic used in your
childish blog correct. Grow up, kid.
roj
> On Nov 22, 10:23 am, Lee Olsen <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > doubt on the brothers Castiglioni -
>
> > > > >http://rogueclassicism.com/2009/11/13/cambyses-lost-army-found-dont-e...
>
> > > > While I thank the kid (student) for digging up some interesting URLs,
> > > > if this is all the brothers have to worry about for a critic, they are
> > > > looking better than ever.
>
> > > > So, what part of the kid's report bothers you the most?
> > > > PS, I wonder what his major is, basketweaving?
>
>
> > > david meadows
>
> > That's even worse...an adult that thinks like one.
>
> oooooo ... a troll ... my daddy told me about you!
The kid is back!
>In any event, see
> now Gary Chavetz in the Huffington Post:
>
>
Huffington is supposed to mean something?
Whether or not the Castiglioni brothers have
found anything "promising" doesn't make
the trolling crap and idiot logic used in your
childish blog correct. Grow up, kid.
From:-
http://news.discovery.com/archaeology/cambyses-army-remains-sahara.html
“Now, two top Italian archaeologists claim to have found striking evidence that the Persian army
was indeed swallowed in a sandstorm. Twin brothers Angelo and Alfredo Castiglioni are already f
amous for their discovery 20 years ago of the ancient Egyptian "city of gold" Berenike Panchrysos.”
From:-
http://www.archbase.com/berenike/english5.html
Never a whisper of the Brothers Castiglioni although many other references both to original
discoverers as well as current archaeologists. Indeed, the discovery of Berenike Panchrysos
appears to date from the 17th, through the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries.
So, for what were the Brothers Castiglioni previously (in)famous?
roj
Lee Olsen
>
> So, for what were the Brothers Castiglioni previously (in)famous?
Castiglioni, Alfredo and Angelo Castiglioni. 1997. Berenice
rogueclassicist
>
> "Piero Pruneti, editor of Archeologia Viva,
> Italy's most important archaeology magazine,
> is also impressed by the team's work.
> "Judging from their documentary, the
> Castiglioni's have made a very promising
> finding," Prunetic told Discovery News.
> "Indeed, their expeditions are all based
> on a careful study of the landscape...An
> in-depth exploration of the area is
> certainly needed!"
>
> Whether or not the Castiglioni brothers have
> found anything "promising" doesn't make
> the trolling crap and idiot logic used in your
> childish blog correct. Grow up, kid.
So let's see ... we'll question the claims of something because it
comes from the Huffington Post, but we will whole heartedly accept
something claimed by folks who make shockumentaries. T'aint me who
needs to grow up.
Lee Olsen
Are you the person who wrote this line of tripe?
http://rogueclassicism.com/2009/11/13/cambyses-lost-army-found-dont-eat-that-elmer/
or
http://tinyurl.com/yhaoa77
"I think it’s time to let the air out of this balloon …
UPDATE (11/17/09): driving home from school today I realized
the other name in the report is known to us as well
… Aly Barakat is the Egyptian geologist who ‘confirmed’
that those things in Bosnia were pyramids … and that they
were man-made like the pyramids in Egypt … I think that puts
the final nail in the credibility coffin on this one …"
-------------------------------------------------------
Whether or not Barakat knows anything at all about pyramids
has nothing to do with his skill at operating a metal detector.
Metal detecting is all he is shown to be doing in the film.
He isn't quoted as making any claims as to what what found.
The only balloon without air is yours. If you ever had any
credibility before this, kid, it's gone now.
rogueclassicist
> orhttp://tinyurl.com/yhaoa77
>
> "I think it’s time to let the air out of this balloon …
>
> UPDATE (11/17/09): driving home from school today I realized
> the other name in the report is known to us as well
> … Aly Barakat is the Egyptian geologist who ‘confirmed’
> that those things in Bosnia were pyramids … and that they
> were man-made like the pyramids in Egypt … I think that puts
> the final nail in the credibility coffin on this one …"
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> Whether or not Barakat knows anything at all about pyramids
> has nothing to do with his skill at operating a metal detector.
> Metal detecting is all he is shown to be doing in the film.
> He isn't quoted as making any claims as to what what found.
>
> The only balloon without air is yours. If you ever had any
> credibility before this, kid, it's gone now.
far be it from me to judge what is credible in your cloudy eyes, what
is clear is that everyone involved in this 'discovery' all have some
recent, questionable activities in their background which cast doubt
on the recent claims. I am not saying it *isn't* the remains of the
army, but rather, that it needs to be investigated by folks who are a
bit more credible than this bunch.
pippa.moran
JTEM wrote:
> SolomonW <Solom...@nospamMail.com> wrote:
>
> http://news.discovery.com/archaeology/cambyses-army-remains-sahara.html
>
> > Shut up fool!
>
> You failed to answer the question. Do you or do
> you not see the parallels with the Exodus story?
>
> As I pointed out, they even go so far as to use the
> word "Drowned."
Delurking and interrupting your flame war with boring old facts for a
minute...
What parallels? There aren't any parallels, just total opposites. In
one story, an Egyptian army is killed by a very wet substance while
heading out of Egypt. In the other, a foreign army is killed by a
very dry substance while heading into Egypt. Spot the difference!
Don't get me wrong, I'd love this event to be the inspiration for the
Exodus myth, just because it would really piss off all those extremist
fundamentalist religious nutters who make up claims about chariot
wheels being found in the Red Sea. And anything that pisses off
extremist fundamentalist religious nutters has got to be a good thing,
right?
But unfortunately that's just wishful thinking, and there's no real
evidence to connect this to Exodus at all.
Lee Olsen
More of your lip service. Go ahead, kid, show us how knowledge of
pyramids
has anything to do with competence at metal detecting.
> what
> is clear is that everyone involved in this 'discovery' all have some
> recent, questionable activities in their background which cast doubt
> on the recent claims.
Liar. There is no more relationship between the "evidence" and their
"background" than there is between pyramids and metal detecting.
> I am not saying it *isn't* the remains of the
> army, but rather, that it needs to be investigated by folks who are a
> bit more credible than this bunch.
Which is exactly what the brothers claimed in the first place, so why
are you repeating, like a parrot, what they said should be done years
ago?
Since their last expedition was in 2002 and a permit was issued in
2002,
to a qualified archaeologist, it looks like the brothers advice was
taken
seriously. The fact that their film wasn't released in conjuction with
a final site report from the investigating archaeologist isn't their
problem.
What is perfectly clear is you are not an archaeologist:
http://tinyurl.com/yhaoa77
"While watching this, I had a very uncomfortable feeling …
these guys don’t seem to be acting much like archaeologists,
even perhaps in a survey situation. There doesn’t seem
to be any concern for context and they appear to be pulling
random artifacts out from random places. Not a good sign."
That was a film, not a site report. How do you know what
they did or did not do for recording locations? You are making
assumptions based on your ignorance. Oh sorry, assumptions
based on your "feeling".
JTEM
"pippa.moran" <pippa.mo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> JTEM wrote:
> > You failed to answer the question. Do you or do
> > you not see the parallels with the Exodus story?
>
> > As I pointed out, they even go so far as to use the
> > word "Drowned."
>
> Delurking and interrupting your flame war with boring
> old facts for a minute...
Now watch as you contradict yourself...
> What parallels? There aren't any parallels, just
> total opposites.
Well, there's the bleeding obvious example that I cited
in the above. But, it was clever of you to ignore the
obvious in favor of simple-minded contradiction. I think
I speak for everyone here when I say that there isn't
nearly enough of that already, here on usenet.
pippa.moran
JTEM wrote:
> "pippa.moran" <pippa.mo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > JTEM wrote:
>
> > > You failed to answer the question. Do you or do
> > > you not see the parallels with the Exodus story?
> >
> > > As I pointed out, they even go so far as to use the
> > > word "Drowned."
> >
> > Delurking and interrupting your flame war with boring
> > old facts for a minute...
>
> Now watch as you contradict yourself...
Well, I would've contradicted myself if I'd flamed you for seeming to
get a bit mixed up between "parallels" and "opposites".
But instead I just simply stated the facts. I'm sorry if I
accidentally gave the impression that I was flaming you. After all,
anyone can get a bit muddled now and again. We've all done it, and
it's silly to hold a grudge or insult people because of it.
>
> > What parallels? There aren't any parallels, just
> > total opposites.
>
> Well, there's the bleeding obvious example that I cited
> in the above.
You mean the fact that a modern journalist covering the story decided
to use the highly misleading term "drowned" to create a melodramatic
and sensationalist opening sentence, even though it obviously doesn't
really apply here if you take the trouble to read the rest of the
article...?
If that really is your idea of a "parallel" then I'm afraid we're
going to have to agree to disagree. I'd prefer something a bit more
reliable than wild journalistic hyperbole.
> But, it was clever of you to ignore the
> obvious in favor of simple-minded contradiction.
<python> No I didn't! </python>
> I think
> I speak for everyone here when I say that there isn't
> nearly enough of that already, here on usenet.
So, what other "obvious" parallels can you see? That's not intended
as a flame or sarcasm or anything like that. I really am genuinely
curious, because I can't see any.
Kendall K Down
ups.com>
"pippa.moran" <pippa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Don't get me wrong, I'd love this event to be the inspiration for the
> Exodus myth, just because it would really piss off all those extremist
> fundamentalist religious nutters who make up claims about chariot
> wheels being found in the Red Sea. And anything that pisses off
> extremist fundamentalist religious nutters has got to be a good thing,
> right?
He he. I was giving lectures on archaeology in the Czech Republic
recently and made a passing reference to Ron Wyatt. You'd think I had
slandered the pope! Fortunately I had internet access and in the next
lecture was able to deal with the subject at slightly greater length.
Did you know that Google Earth disproves the nut case? Compare his
claims about the depth of the Red Sea at Nuweiba and the seabed
profile shown by Google Earth!
JTEM
"pippa.moran" <pippa.mo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You mean the
So you miss the bleeding obvious parallels in
the building of Akhetaten, or between Akhenaten
and Moses...
igor
It is as obvious as the existence of Yeti..
Odysseus
<02d21675-64db-4fdd...@r24g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
igor <inbel...@gmail.com> wrote:
Where's Immanuel Velikovsky when we need him?
--
Odysseus
Day Brown
well known kook.
JTEM
igor <inbellt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > So you miss the bleeding obvious parallels in
> > the building of Akhetaten, or between Akhenaten
> > and Moses...
>
> It is as obvious as the existence of Yeti..
Thanks for reminding me how insane you are.
igor
O? What makes you say that?
rogueclassicist
> > I am not saying it *isn't* the remains of the
> > army, but rather, that it needs to be investigated by folks who are a
> > bit more credible than this bunch.
>
> Which is exactly what the brothers claimed in the first place, so why
> are you repeating, like a parrot, what they said should be done years
> ago?
When did the brothers say this? They said that in regards to the 'City
of Gold' thing, as far as I know, not the Cambyses army thing.
> Since their last expedition was in 2002 and a permit was issued in
> 2002,
> to a qualified archaeologist, it looks like the brothers advice was
> taken
> seriously. The fact that their film wasn't released in conjuction with
> a final site report from the investigating archaeologist isn't their
> problem.
I'm lost now ... are you talking Cambyses army or City of Gold?
>
> What is perfectly clear is you are not an archaeologist:
Never claimed to be one; but I do and have covered archaeology for
quite a while now
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yhaoa77
> "While watching this, I had a very uncomfortable feeling …
> these guys don’t seem to be acting much like archaeologists,
> even perhaps in a survey situation. There doesn’t seem
> to be any concern for context and they appear to be pulling
> random artifacts out from random places. Not a good sign."
>
> That was a film, not a site report. How do you know what
> they did or did not do for recording locations? You are making
> assumptions based on your ignorance. Oh sorry, assumptions
> based on your "feeling".
I think I was pretty clear that I was getting an uncomfortable
"feeling"; I wasn't making assumptions ... I was taking into account
that this group of folks doesn't have a lot of bona fides when it
comes to serious archaeology and combined with what is seen in the
movie, that isn't a good thing. If you want to defend them, that's
your prerogative, and like I said, they might in the end be proven to
be right, but until some folks with better credentials look into this
seriously, I can't take the newspaper accounts that say that -- beyond
a shadow of a doubt -- cambyses' lost army has been found. again, if
you want to go the other way and believe it until you get evidence to
to contrary, that's your prerogative.
I assume you'll want the last word, so you can have it at your
leisure ...
dm
Lee Olsen
> On Dec 6, 12:53 pm, Lee Olsen <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I am not saying it *isn't* the remains of the
> > > army, but rather, that it needs to be investigated by folks who are a
> > > bit more credible than this bunch.
>
> > Which is exactly what the brothers claimed in the first place, so why
> > are you repeating, like a parrot, what they said should be done years
> > ago?
>
> When did the brothers say this?
Geez, if the resort owner Hisham Nessim realises the correct thing to
do is turn over finds to the authorities, certainly the Castiglioni
brothers
would also.
"The team communicated their finding to the Geological Survey of Egypt
and gave the recovered objects to the Egyptian authorities.
We never heard back. I'm sure that the lost army is buried somewhere
around the area we surveyed, perhaps under 16.4 feet of sand."
IOW, they turned over what few items they found for *further*
investigaton,
they did not do any controlled digs (which of course would require a
permit),
at least no digs are shown on any of the video clips, only the shallow
uncovering of a few items found with the metal detector that were then
placed
in a plastic bag (I presume these are the items turned over to the
GSE).
>They said that in regards to the 'City
> of Gold' thing, as far as I know, not the Cambyses army thing.
>
> > Since their last expedition was in 2002 and a permit was issued in
> > 2002,
> > to a qualified archaeologist, it looks like the brothers advice was
> > taken
> > seriously. The fact that their film wasn't released in conjuction with
> > a final site report from the investigating archaeologist isn't their
> > problem.
>
> I'm lost now ... are you talking Cambyses army or City of Gold?
Army. The brothers made 5 expeditions from 1996 to 2002 for the lost
army search,
according to a number of media reports. The lost city search was done
in
the 1980s. The timeline is critical because new antiquity laws,
permits issued, and
"security authorities in Egypt and are taking the necessary
procedures" (Hawass) all
are long after the initial finds by the brothers in 1996.
>
>
>
> > What is perfectly clear is you are not an archaeologist:
>
> Never claimed to be one;
"While watching this, I had a very uncomfortable feeling …
these guys don’t seem to be acting much like archaeologists,...
[snip]
How do you know that? Just what is an archaeologist supposed to act
like?
>but I do and have covered archaeology for
> quite a while now
>
>
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/yhaoa77
> > "While watching this, I had a very uncomfortable feeling …
> > these guys don’t seem to be acting much like archaeologists,
> > even perhaps in a survey situation. There doesn’t seem
> > to be any concern for context and they appear to be pulling
> > random artifacts out from random places. Not a good sign."
>
> > That was a film, not a site report. How do you know what
> > they did or did not do for recording locations? You are making
> > assumptions based on your ignorance. Oh sorry, assumptions
> > based on your "feeling".
>
> I think I was pretty clear that I was getting an uncomfortable
> "feeling"; I wasn't making assumptions ... I was taking into account
> that this group of folks doesn't have a lot of bona fides when it
> comes to serious archaeology and combined with what is seen in the
> movie, that isn't a good thing.
That's what I'm trying to get across to you, there is no relationship
between evidence found and someone being qualified to find it.
Example, not one major find in the state I live in has been found
by a bona fide-professional archaeologist. Farmers, on the other hand,
are at the top of the list of major discoveries. Maybe farmers should
make more movies.
> If you want to defend them, that's
> your prerogative, and like I said, they might in the end be proven to
> be right, but until some folks with better credentials look into this
> seriously, I can't take the newspaper accounts that say that -- beyond
> a shadow of a doubt -- cambyses' lost army has been found. again, if
> you want to go the other way and believe it until you get evidence to
> to contrary, that's your prerogative.
Confused again? Who said I was defending them? What I'm doing is
pointing out the garbage thinking on your blog, not whether or not
they are right or wrong.
>
> I assume you'll want the last word,
You assume wrong, you can have the last word with your retraction.
> so you can have it at your
> leisure ...
Thanks, as soon as I get some more "leisure" I will be pointing out
some more foolish logic I found on your blog, crunch was only worried
about some of your transgressions, there are more balloons than the
ones
I've commented on so far.
>
> dm