Meaning of Sand Painting.
Philip Deitiker
http://www.dailybulletin.com/Stories/0,1413,203%257E24394%257E20
70841,00.html#
http://www.naturegraph.com/indian/in-gen/Tapestri.html
http://www.mandalaproject.org/What/Main.html
I was watching a PBS documentary on the restoration of the
monestaries in bhutan and I noticed that they were discussing
sand paintings as used for healing elements. I remember being
told that native americans sand paintings were used for the same
thing.
I don't believe that the primary reason for sand paintings
was for healing, but I have little idea about the history of
this craft in the new world. Not to much history on the net
either.
I have this sand painting about 2.5' x 2' in size that I was
told was for the use of praying for rain. In the center of the
image was a dancer with feathered arms and a face of blue bird
and a tail of also feather. To his side is a scorpion made of
triangles (I was told these are cloud symbols)and arms made of
feathers. The triangle and feather featurs and other geometric
forms fill the background in all directions. There is fluffy
objects like snow. In any case, I was told by the person who
gave it to me that all these objects are for the purpose of rain
or snow. I see many of the same motives in other sand paintings
and I am under the impression these paintings are permanent
objects for the praying for rain and snow.
--
Philip
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t(nospam)kavanagh
The Navajo and various Pueblo groups use sand paintings as part of
religious rituals; Navajos for healing, Pueblos as prayers. They are
supposed are supposed to be destroyed when the ceremony is over.
Beginning in the 1960s, I believe, some Navajos (or others) began making
"permanent" sand paintings on masonite boards (sprinkling sand into a
strand of Elmer's glue) for sale to tourists. It made the
traditionalists real mad.
tk
Philip Deitiker
news:c6ojrq$ch1$1...@hood.uits.indiana.edu:
> The Navajo and various Pueblo groups use sand paintings as
> part of religious rituals; Navajos for healing, Pueblos as
> prayers. They are supposed are supposed to be destroyed
> when the ceremony is over.
>
> Beginning in the 1960s, I believe, some Navajos (or others)
> began making "permanent" sand paintings on masonite boards
> (sprinkling sand into a strand of Elmer's glue) for sale to
> tourists. It made the traditionalists real mad.
Uh, oh. lol. This mirrors then the Tibetian use of the sand
painting in form, destroying it after use. That explains one
thing though, the artist who made this sand painting put his
name in a script that is illegible.
Duncan Craig
I was under the impression that a basic element of sand paintings,
whether Navajo or Tibetan, is impermanence. Once completed, they are
whisked away with the tail of a yak. It is a Buddhist metaphor for the
transitory nature of everything. It certainly wouldn't be appropriate
to be "praying for rain and snow" permanently.
Duncan
Philip Deitiker
news:a37f0d1c.04042...@posting.google.com:
> I was under the impression that a basic element of sand
> paintings, whether Navajo or Tibetan, is impermanence. Once
> completed, they are whisked away with the tail of a yak. It
> is a Buddhist metaphor for the transitory nature of
> everything. It certainly wouldn't be appropriate to be
> "praying for rain and snow" permanently.
Well, theoretically you would pray at them when you wanted rain
or snow. But at the point that I saw the documentary I was
looking for the history or archaeology associated with sand
painting on the internet but found very little. If all sand
paintings prior to 1960 in the american southwest were
ceremonially demolished, then one would not expect any
archaeology. However with luck someone might know when
approximately this tradition started or was first observed in
native american cultures.
An artistic object which has religious symbolitry embedded
within the graphic can be observed in any number of destructive
and non-destructive ways. However, I will take T.K.s word on
this because I had not seen these objects at any of the curios
markets in southwest texas until about 15 years ago.
As for the connotation. I should point out that Japanese
pottery underwent a similar transformation as Arita free-form
pottery progress, the media stopped being circular objects such
as glass, teapots and plates and they started creating large
ceramic paintings. The permanent sand paintings in the southwest
are transforming in similar ways, as from an artisans stand
point you can do alot more with a large 'canvas' than with a
small circle, or a pottery peice. Therefore there is that
component to this as the textures of the sand paintings are not
that different from the textures and colors on pottery pieces
from northern mexico and southwestern United States. The
ceramics industry was not indemic to Japan despite having the
worlds oldest know pottery traditions, these artisans came from
china, and once in Japan the traditions evolved. In arita there
is now an institute for arita ceramics (been there) in which
people from all over the world go and train in the arita free-
form ceramic techniques as well as other techniques. In the west
however we know this as Imari (or Amari) ceramics after the port
which they are distributed from.
If you look at modern free form pottery they still contain
Japanese religions elements, the crane, turtles, and other
elements that represent things like wisdom, longlife, etc.
Searles O'Dubhain
The Buddhist ritual and sand painting that I attended established the
mandala/yantra for about a month and then disposed of it in small
quantities to each of the participants, with some of the sand being
offered to flowing waters. It was ritually created and ritually
destroyed. These three states: creation, existence and destruction are
represented in terms of physical, mental and spiritual realms by
worlds, awarenesses and levels/types of spirit.
(Almost) everything is in a state of change, yet (almost) everything
is recreated again and again. The same can be said for dying and being
born from a Buddhist perspective (especially Tibetean). This
tripartate outlook on the cosmos is typical of Indo-European
cosmologies.
Searles
Ken Down
dun...@pacbell.net (Duncan Craig) wrote:
> I was under the impression that a basic element of sand paintings,
> whether Navajo or Tibetan, is impermanence. Once completed, they are
> whisked away with the tail of a yak. It is a Buddhist metaphor for the
> transitory nature of everything. It certainly wouldn't be appropriate
> to be "praying for rain and snow" permanently.
Presumably this is new evidence for hitherto unsuspected world trade routes?
Let's see: a probable route would be northwards from Lhasa, then across
China, down the Yangtse, onto a junk to Hawaii, by canoe across to America,
but then what? It's the last step across the Rockies that gets me. Any
suggestions, anyone? Spacecraft? Extra-terrestrial elephants? Those yak
tails had to get to the Navaho Buddhists somehow!
Ken Down
--
__ __ __ __ __
| \ | / __ / __ | |\ | / __ |__ All the latest archaeological news
|__/ | \__/ \__/ | | \| \__/ __| from the Middle East with David Down
================================= and "Digging Up The Past"
Web site: www.diggingsonline.com
e-mail: digg...@argonet.co.uk
Lloyd
> dun...@pacbell.net (Duncan Craig) says in
> news:a37f0d1c.04042...@posting.google.com:
>
> > I was under the impression that a basic element of sand
> > paintings, whether Navajo or Tibetan, is impermanence. Once
> > completed, they are whisked away with the tail of a yak. It
> > is a Buddhist metaphor for the transitory nature of
> > everything. It certainly wouldn't be appropriate to be
> > "praying for rain and snow" permanently.
>
> Well, theoretically you would pray at them when you wanted rain
> or snow. But at the point that I saw the documentary I was
> looking for the history or archaeology associated with sand
> painting on the internet but found very little. If all sand
> paintings prior to 1960 in the american southwest were
> ceremonially demolished, then one would not expect any
> archaeology.
[snip]
Technically, you're *probably* correct, but we'd need to
know more about the destruction process. While the graphic
form of any sand painting(s) would be long gone, is the medium
itself removed? I mean, are the various contrasting (colored?)
sands themselves taken away?. Or is the sand merely
"redistributed", by being spread around the area?
I have no idea if the Anasazi are in any way associated
with sand painting, but just as an example: in a protected
area (such as a kiva) an intrusive layer of multi-colored sands,
or a sand mixture otherwise not typical of the surrounding
material seen in a dig, just *might* constitute archaeological
evidence of this sort of practice.
Lloyd
*****
G Horvat
wrote:
>In article <a37f0d1c.04042...@posting.google.com>,
>dun...@pacbell.net (Duncan Craig) wrote:
>
>> I was under the impression that a basic element of sand paintings,
>> whether Navajo or Tibetan, is impermanence. Once completed, they are
>> whisked away with the tail of a yak. It is a Buddhist metaphor for the
>> transitory nature of everything. It certainly wouldn't be appropriate
>> to be "praying for rain and snow" permanently.
>
>Presumably this is new evidence for hitherto unsuspected world trade routes?
>Let's see: a probable route would be northwards from Lhasa, then across
>China, down the Yangtse, onto a junk to Hawaii, by canoe across to America,
>but then what? It's the last step across the Rockies that gets me. Any
>suggestions, anyone? Spacecraft? Extra-terrestrial elephants? Those yak
>tails had to get to the Navaho Buddhists somehow!
I don't know if Philip or Duncan had this in mind or even how old the
practice of sand painting is but Tibetans could be genetically related
to the Nadene-speaking peoples of the New World (and others) via mtDNA
haplogroup A.
http://www.cr.nps.gov/aad/kennewick/t_ktable2.htm
In Y chromosome comparisons, both the Tibetans and Japanese have been
determined to have the Yap insertion (and not very many other Asian
populations).
Gisele
t(nospam)kavanagh
>
> Philip Deitiker <Donev...@worlnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<FNTjc.31972$_o3.10...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> > dun...@pacbell.net (Duncan Craig) says in
> > news:a37f0d1c.04042...@posting.google.com:
> >
> > > I was under the impression that a basic element of sand
> > > paintings, whether Navajo or Tibetan, is impermanence. Once
> > > completed, they are whisked away with the tail of a yak. It
> > > is a Buddhist metaphor for the transitory nature of
> > > everything. It certainly wouldn't be appropriate to be
> > > "praying for rain and snow" permanently.
> >
> > Well, theoretically you would pray at them when you wanted rain
> > or snow.
This is pure baloney, part of the marketing scam.
From
Wyman, Leland C.
1983 Navajo Ceremonial System. Handbook of North American Indians, Vol.
10, Southwest (non-Pueblo).
Page 551:
"Following the bath or offering ceremonies the sandpainting ('iikááh) is
begun. This is a symbolic picture, often large and complicated, of the
protagonist of the myth that sanctions and explains the ceremonial or
the Holy People he encounters in his mythic adventures. ... When the
Holy People taught the protagonists of the myths how to reproduce the
sacred pictures, which they kept rolled up on clouds, they forbade their
reproduction in permanent form lest they be soiled or damaged ...
... When the sandpainting is complete ... the patient sits on some
figure in the painting. While singing, the singer applies his palms
moistened with herb medicine to various parts of the painted figures'
bodies and then applies the adhering sand to corresponding parts of the
patient's body. This identifies the patient with the Holy People
represented ... The patient ... absorbs their powers from the sands,
exchanging evil for good. ... Finally the patient leaves the hogan, the
singer erases the sandpainting and the now infectious sand is carried
out and deposited north of the hogan where it can do no harm."
> > But at the point that I saw the documentary I was
> > looking for the history or archaeology associated with sand
> > painting on the internet but found very little. If all sand
> > paintings prior to 1960 in the american southwest were
> > ceremonially demolished, then one would not expect any
> > archaeology.
>
> [snip]
>
> Technically, you're *probably* correct, but we'd need to
> know more about the destruction process. While the graphic
> form of any sand painting(s) would be long gone, is the medium
> itself removed? I mean, are the various contrasting (colored?)
> sands themselves taken away?. Or is the sand merely
> "redistributed", by being spread around the area?
>
> I have no idea if the Anasazi are in any way associated
> with sand painting, but just as an example: in a protected
> area (such as a kiva) an intrusive layer of multi-colored sands,
> or a sand mixture otherwise not typical of the surrounding
> material seen in a dig, just *might* constitute archaeological
> evidence of this sort of practice.
The Navajo probably learned sandpainting from the Hisatsinom (Hopi for
"Ancient Ones," better than Navajo Anasazi "Ancient Enemies"), rather
than the other way around, since many Pueblos have sandpaintings but no
other Apacheans do. Yes, Pueblo sandpaintings are destroyed after use,
just as the kiva wall paintings were plastered over after use. At
Kawaika'a on Antelope Mesa, kivas were found with multiple layers of
wall paintings, as were at Pottery Mound in the Puerco Valley west of
Albuquerque.
tk
Duncan Craig
> In article <a37f0d1c.04042...@posting.google.com>,
> dun...@pacbell.net (Duncan Craig) wrote:
>
> > I was under the impression that a basic element of sand paintings,
> > whether Navajo or Tibetan, is impermanence. Once completed, they are
> > whisked away with the tail of a yak. It is a Buddhist metaphor for the
> > transitory nature of everything. It certainly wouldn't be appropriate
> > to be "praying for rain and snow" permanently.
>
> Presumably this is new evidence for hitherto unsuspected world trade routes?
The discussion is about sand painting. I don't recall mentioning
evidence or trade routes.
> Let's see: a probable route would be northwards from Lhasa, then across
> China, down the Yangtse, onto a junk to Hawaii, by canoe across to America,
> but then what? It's the last step across the Rockies that gets me. Any
> suggestions, anyone? Spacecraft? Extra-terrestrial elephants? Those yak
> tails had to get to the Navaho Buddhists somehow!
>
> Ken Down
There are definite inexplicable cultural and dna affinities (see
Giselle Horvats post). How these came to be, I'll leave to your
obviously active imagination.
Duncan Craig
Duncan Craig
Thank you, Gisele.
Duncan
Philip Deitiker
> This is pure baloney, part of the marketing scam.
Welcome to the wonderful world of art.
> Page 551:
> "Following the bath or offering ceremonies the sandpainting
> ('iikللh) is begun. This is a symbolic picture, often
> large and complicated, of the protagonist of the myth that
> sanctions and explains the ceremonial or the Holy People he
> encounters in his mythic adventures. ... When the Holy
> People taught the protagonists of the myths how to
> reproduce the sacred pictures, which they kept rolled up on
> clouds, they forbade their reproduction in permanent form
> lest they be soiled or damaged ...
This is what I was kind of asking for.
As for the soiling and damaging thing. Grains of sand are kind
of a permanent thing, not too much goes on with sand painting.
Suppose some day I might have to dry clean it or blow it with
aerosic dusting compound. ;^). Colors however are spectacular,
the grains of sand sparkle even in dim light.
> The Navajo probably learned sandpainting from the
> Hisatsinom (Hopi for "Ancient Ones," better than Navajo
> Anasazi "Ancient Enemies"), rather than the other way
> around, since many Pueblos have sandpaintings but no other
> Apacheans do. Yes, Pueblo sandpaintings are destroyed after
> use, just as the kiva wall paintings were plastered over
> after use. At Kawaika'a on Antelope Mesa, kivas were found
> with multiple layers of wall paintings, as were at Pottery
> Mound in the Puerco Valley west of Albuquerque.
OK, so this is along the lines, and what are the earliest dated
wall paintings or other evidence for the sand painting
traditions. That is kind of what I was asking.
Philip Deitiker
news:0ne290putuu289nko...@4ax.com:
> I don't know if Philip or Duncan had this in mind or even
> how old the practice of sand painting is but Tibetans could
> be genetically related to the Nadene-speaking peoples of
> the New World (and others) via mtDNA haplogroup A.
>
> http://www.cr.nps.gov/aad/kennewick/t_ktable2.htm
>
> In Y chromosome comparisons, both the Tibetans and Japanese
> have been determined to have the Yap insertion (and not
> very many other Asian populations).
Well of course this popped into head, but I was kind of
wondering how old the tradition was.
G Horvat
wrote:
>G Horvat <g-ho...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:<0ne290putuu289nko...@4ax.com>...
[...]
>> I don't know if Philip or Duncan had this in mind or even how old the
>> practice of sand painting is but Tibetans could be genetically related
>> to the Nadene-speaking peoples of the New World (and others) via mtDNA
>> haplogroup A.
Duncan, the present thought appears to be that the Chinese haplogroup
A sequences should be traced back to the Di-Qiang. Since you are
familiar with Chinese history, maybe this means something to you.
Gisele
t(nospam)kavanagh
>
> "t(nospam)kavanagh" <"tkavanag"@(nospam)indiana.edu> says in
> news:c6rhc0$d7f$1...@hood.uits.indiana.edu:
>
> > This is pure baloney, part of the marketing scam.
>
> Welcome to the wonderful world of art.
>
> > Page 551:
> > "Following the bath or offering ceremonies the sandpainting
> > ('iikللh) is begun. This is a symbolic picture, often
> > large and complicated, of the protagonist of the myth that
> > sanctions and explains the ceremonial or the Holy People he
> > encounters in his mythic adventures. ... When the Holy
> > People taught the protagonists of the myths how to
> > reproduce the sacred pictures, which they kept rolled up on
> > clouds, they forbade their reproduction in permanent form
> > lest they be soiled or damaged ...
>
> This is what I was kind of asking for.
> As for the soiling and damaging thing. Grains of sand are kind
> of a permanent thing, not too much goes on with sand painting.
> Suppose some day I might have to dry clean it or blow it with
> aerosic dusting compound. ;^). Colors however are spectacular,
> the grains of sand sparkle even in dim light.
You don't get the point do you. Traditionally, the images aren't
supposed to be permanent. What you've got is tourist crap.
>
> > The Navajo probably learned sandpainting from the
> > Hisatsinom (Hopi for "Ancient Ones," better than Navajo
> > Anasazi "Ancient Enemies"), rather than the other way
> > around, since many Pueblos have sandpaintings but no other
> > Apacheans do. Yes, Pueblo sandpaintings are destroyed after
> > use, just as the kiva wall paintings were plastered over
> > after use. At Kawaika'a on Antelope Mesa, kivas were found
> > with multiple layers of wall paintings, as were at Pottery
> > Mound in the Puerco Valley west of Albuquerque.
>
> OK, so this is along the lines,
what lines?
> and what are the earliest dated wall paintings
Wall paintings are not sand paintings
But there are some Western Anasazi cave wall paintings from Pueblo I
thru P-III (ca 900 AD) [See HNAI 9]
> or other evidence for the sand painting traditions. That is kind of what I was asking.
Since SW sandpaintings are by nature (whoops, by culture) ephemeral,
there can't be any archaeological evidence of them, unless one of those
commercial things on masonite somehow gets preserved for the future.
tk
Philip Deitiker
> You don't get the point do you.
I got it, actually I was questioning the opinion that was given
to me.
> Traditionally, the images aren't supposed to be permanent.
What you've got is tourist crap.
Understood T.K. but tourist crap evolves. I think the difference
is that you take these traditions very seriously, and I don't.
To some degree I am a bit mused by your opinion, if you were a
medicine man from a Navaho tribe I might expect this.
Unfortunately or fortunately I have a rather global
perspective on traditions, I have few of my own and I have had
to sit through others for others that I have no comprehesion of.
Art is that which expands the boundaries of art. I guess you
could say that sand paintings are a new arena. Just like the
arts and craft wave of the early 20th century was touristy crap,
now that crap is worth big money. I am pretty fine that these
'touristy' paintings violate the traditions of the navaho
purist. As I recall owning a cat in england violated the
tradition of the christian purist at one time, of course the
black plaque had little respect for those traditions either.
> Since SW sandpaintings are by nature (whoops, by culture)
> ephemeral, there can't be any archaeological evidence of
> them, unless one of those commercial things on masonite
> somehow gets preserved for the future.
Now I think you are trying to be 'smart' T.K. the issue is that
if sand paintings were made from different colored sands that
means they could have been collected, possibly stored in pottery
for some later use and possible pottery with grains of sand of
different colors have been uncovered.
Are these traditions 500 year old, 1000, 1500, 3000, 5000,
10,000 ect. I don't think exact dates hwer are
Culture and Nature are one in the same. Culture is the Nature
of Homo sapiens.
Ken Down
<g-ho...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> I don't know if Philip or Duncan had this in mind or even how old the
> practice of sand painting is but Tibetans could be genetically related
> to the Nadene-speaking peoples of the New World
Quite possibly, but neither yaks nor buddhism are found among the Navaho -
or only as a very recent import.
Joe Jefferson
>
> http://www.geocities.com/kanika_sandart/
> http://www.dailybulletin.com/Stories/0,1413,203%257E24394%257E20
> 70841,00.html#
>
> http://www.naturegraph.com/indian/in-gen/Tapestri.html
>
> http://www.mandalaproject.org/What/Main.html
>
> I was watching a PBS documentary on the restoration of the
> monestaries in bhutan and I noticed that they were discussing
> sand paintings as used for healing elements. I remember being
> told that native americans sand paintings were used for the same
> thing.
>
> I don't believe that the primary reason for sand paintings
> was for healing, but I have little idea about the history of
> this craft in the new world. Not to much history on the net
> either.
In Southern California they're used during initiations and the mourning
ceremony, generally associated in both cases with "toloache" (Jimson
weed) drinking. They are destroyed after use so that the uninitiated
will not see them.
--
Joe of Castle Jefferson
http://www.mindspring.com/~jjstrshp
Site Updated November 25th, 2001
"Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the
poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the
hand of the wicked." - Psalm 82:3-4
Catherine Hampton
>> I was watching a PBS documentary on the restoration of the
>> monestaries in bhutan and I noticed that they were discussing
>> sand paintings as used for healing elements. I remember being
>> told that native americans sand paintings were used for the same
>> thing.
The sand paintings used by Navajo shamans are used during "sings", religious
rituals that are frequently (but not by any means always) used for healing. I
believe that this is also true of the Pueblo tribes in the American southwest.
>> I don't believe that the primary reason for sand paintings
>> was for healing, but I have little idea about the history of
>> this craft in the new world. Not to much history on the net
>> either.
>In Southern California they're used during initiations and the mourning
>ceremony, generally associated in both cases with "toloache" (Jimson
>weed) drinking. They are destroyed after use so that the uninitiated
>will not see them.
The Navajo also destroy sand paintings used during sings, as I understand it to
prevent them from being profaned or misused. The sand paintings sold to
tourists are normally different from those used in actual ceremonies in some
small, but ritually important, details.
--
Catherine Hampton <ar...@spambouncer.org>
Home Page * <http://www.devsite.org/>
The SpamBouncer * <http://www.spambouncer.org/>
(Please use this address for replies -- the address in my header is a
spam trap.)
Philip Deitiker
news:9alna01iikskea1oc...@4ax.com:
> The Navajo also destroy sand paintings used during sings,
> as I understand it to prevent them from being profaned or
> misused. The sand paintings sold to tourists are normally
> different from those used in actual ceremonies in some
> small, but ritually important, details.
Catherine,
I don't know exactly what you are referring to, and I
understand from T.K. that these are traditional not converted
into permanent art, but the sand painting I have differs from
any that I have seen in shops or elsewhere and any that I have
seen on the net. It is about 4 times the area of the larger
tourist paintings. It is rich with all kinds of sybolism, I have
been told, but most of which I have not the foggiest clue what
it means. If I had a digital camera I could take a picture of it
and post it in sci.aux, but I don't.
But this particular one the painter has focused on symbols
that have been used to pray for rain, and the larger icons in
the painting are made with rain symbolism. Like I said before
when I acquired this painting I had no information what so ever
about sand painting culture or traditions, or the peoples who
lived in the areas where it was created. I counted over 200
different elements (motif groups, or complex elements) in it
that I have been told symbolize rain.
Of course since I brought to Houston we have had 3 of the
worst floods in the cities history and in my specific area the
worst, lol, I don't think the artist has properly turned it off,
yet, ROFLMAO. Maybe you can give me some clue as to which one of
these motifs is the switch and I can remove a few sand grains
from it. I have been suspicious of that scorpion motif, I think
he caused the draught of 2001 where the temperature hit a record
111'. SROFL. Sorry, I can't help myself.
Duncan Craig
I was wondering if any of the motifs have three wavy lines like the
serpent mound in ohio? There are talismans for stopping rain.
Duncan
Catherine Hampton
>> I don't know exactly what you are referring to, and I
>> understand from T.K. that these are traditional not converted
>> into permanent art, but the sand painting I have differs from
>> any that I have seen in shops or elsewhere and any that I have
>> seen on the net. It is about 4 times the area of the larger
>> tourist paintings. It is rich with all kinds of sybolism, I have
>> been told, but most of which I have not the foggiest clue what
>> it means. If I had a digital camera I could take a picture of it
>> and post it in sci.aux, but I don't.
<snip, but read>
I wish you did have a digital camera -- I'd like to see this.
I have heard of Navajo artists doing larger and much more detailed sand
paintings, as well as the tourist fodder we've all seen. As I understand it, a
few details in those paintings are changed so that the painting is not ritually
significant. It may be that the details in question are small enough that you
didn't notice them. (I probably wouldn't either -- I'm a rank amateur on Navajo
rituals. They're complex and take years to learn properly.)
Is there any chance you could borrow a digital camera from a friend, or talk one
into taking a picture for you? <G>
Philip Deitiker
> I have heard of Navajo artists doing larger and much more
> detailed sand paintings, as well as the tourist fodder
> we've all seen. As I understand it, a few details in those
> paintings are changed so that the painting is not ritually
> significant. It may be that the details in question are
> small enough that you didn't notice them. (I probably
> wouldn't either -- I'm a rank amateur on Navajo rituals.
> They're complex and take years to learn properly.)
I really wouldn't know, honestly I don't have but a skim of
information about the details. I was pointed to what some of the
elements mean and I found them throughout the painting.
> Is there any chance you could borrow a digital camera from
> a friend, or talk one into taking a picture for you? <G>
You're seriously interested? I don't make any promises, it will
take me some time, but I will try. If I do manage to I will up
load it into the photos section of sci.aux. I will let you know
if I was able to do it.
BTW, the painters name is ?HI?MAN (I can barely read it).
First ? mark looks like a K and second looks like an R.
I would appreciate any information you might be able to tell me
about, its a magnificient work of art, IMHO.
Catherine Hampton
wrote:
>> we've all seen. As I understand it, a few details in those
>> paintings are changed so that the painting is not ritually
>> significant. It may be that the details in question are
>> small enough that you didn't notice them. (I probably
>> wouldn't either -- I'm a rank amateur on Navajo rituals.
>> They're complex and take years to learn properly.)
>I really wouldn't know, honestly I don't have but a skim of
>information about the details. I was pointed to what some of the
>elements mean and I found them throughout the painting.
I guess it is possible that someone who either isn't Navajo or doesn't respect
the traditional rules regarding ritually significant sand paintings might have
given you the real thing....
>> Is there any chance you could borrow a digital camera from
>> a friend, or talk one into taking a picture for you? <G>
>You're seriously interested? I don't make any promises, it will
>take me some time, but I will try. If I do manage to I will up
>load it into the photos section of sci.aux. I will let you know
>if I was able to do it.
That would be cool. If you'd like, just email it to me (at the address in my
.signature, not in the header), and I could post it on my personal web site for
others in the newsgroup.
>BTW, the painters name is ?HI?MAN (I can barely read it).
>First ? mark looks like a K and second looks like an R.
>I would appreciate any information you might be able to tell me
>about, its a magnificient work of art, IMHO.
I don't recognize the name offhand from those letters... But I will do some
research on this. If this was painted by a recognized Navajo artist, I should
be able to track down some information. Of course, it might have been painted
by an artist who isn't Navajo, but knows and respects the tradition. There are
some of those out there.
Philip Deitiker
> On Fri, 21 May 2004 00:13:08 GMT, Philip Deitiker
> <Donev...@worlnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>> we've all seen. As I understand it, a few details in
>>> those paintings are changed so that the painting is not
>>> ritually significant. It may be that the details in
>>> question are small enough that you didn't notice them.
>>> (I probably wouldn't either -- I'm a rank amateur on
>>> Navajo rituals. They're complex and take years to learn
>>> properly.)
>
>>I really wouldn't know, honestly I don't have but a skim of
>>information about the details. I was pointed to what some
>>of the elements mean and I found them throughout the
>>painting.
>
> I guess it is possible that someone who either isn't Navajo
> or doesn't respect the traditional rules regarding ritually
> significant sand paintings might have given you the real
> thing....
It's the real thing, but for a different purpose, there may be
missing elements. I was just surprised at the commentary on the
T.V. show about sand paintings because to the marked differences
in usage.
>>> Is there any chance you could borrow a digital camera
>>> from a friend, or talk one into taking a picture for you?
>>> <G>
>
>>You're seriously interested? I don't make any promises, it
>>will take me some time, but I will try. If I do manage to I
>>will up load it into the photos section of sci.aux. I will
>>let you know if I was able to do it.
>
> That would be cool. If you'd like, just email it to me (at
> the address in my .signature, not in the header), and I
> could post it on my personal web site for others in the
> newsgroup.
I still have the legistical nightmare, I have to rework my
computer because right now all my IRQs and USBs are occupied. I
need to buy a USB mouse and open up a couple of IRQs for
handling. I have been wanting to get a digitial camara (I may be
going to Japan next year so this time I will be equiped). I
already put big money into my machine this month because I
replaced my old TV/video card with a new card, and I was kind of
hoping that after this publication cycle was finished I would
upgrade to XP and then move as many things as possible to the
USB ports. I have the capacity of turning on 3 USB handlers
which can hold 6 devices.
"Win98 till 2098!"
BTW they talk about the holes in windows. My home computer I
have been using alot. Every now and then I take the hard drives
out and check it for bugs and viruses on a system with an
antivirus software. I haven't had even the resemblance of a
virus in 3 or 4 years, and yet my XP PRO machine has been
attacked twice by worms. Who would think that a really old
fragile operating system was more protective than a really new
fancy, portected OS with tons of security protocols.
>>BTW, the painters name is ?HI?MAN (I can barely read it).
>>First ? mark looks like a K and second looks like an R.
>
>>I would appreciate any information you might be able to
>>tell me about, its a magnificient work of art, IMHO.
>
> I don't recognize the name offhand from those letters...
> But I will do some research on this. If this was painted
> by a recognized Navajo artist, I should be able to track
> down some information. Of course, it might have been
> painted by an artist who isn't Navajo, but knows and
> respects the tradition. There are some of those out there.
>
>
>
> --
> Catherine Hampton <ar...@spambouncer.org>
> Home Page *
> <http://www.devsite.org/> The SpamBouncer *
> <http://www.spambouncer.org/>
>
> (Please use this address for replies -- the address in my
> header is a spam trap.)
--
ejudy
~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~
healing sandpainting ritual
(and if you know not what you are doing why do it?)
Why not go to a respectable person of knowing and ask for
advice? Probably because this is a time where internet and media
and culture all crosscurrented so best advice is best found in
developing the whole world as healing ritual.....
those shifting winds and the good spirited painted desert sands
whoosh!
i liked the bat in the N.sandpainting as a helper especially.
And in the Tibetan healing city they had cleaned the sewer systems to
work properly and effectively. Everygroup can work together bringing
their
wisdom to develop the best strategies
When you get all excited and obliviously extremist in your
interests its best to beware and sit back and think thru
before just pursuing the easy.
ej
Catherine Hampton
wrote:
>>>> Is there any chance you could borrow a digital camera
>>>> from a friend, or talk one into taking a picture for you?
>>>> <G>
>>
>>>You're seriously interested? I don't make any promises, it
>>>will take me some time, but I will try. If I do manage to I
>>>will up load it into the photos section of sci.aux. I will
>>>let you know if I was able to do it.
>>
>> That would be cool. If you'd like, just email it to me (at
>> the address in my .signature, not in the header), and I
>> could post it on my personal web site for others in the
>> newsgroup.
>
>I still have the legistical nightmare, I have to rework my
>computer because right now all my IRQs and USBs are occupied. I
>need to buy a USB mouse and open up a couple of IRQs for
>handling.
Ugh. Do you live somewhere in California, by chance? I live in the SF Bay area
and am regularly down in southern California. (I'm dating someone who lives
down there.) If you're anywhere near my usual run, maybe the way to solve this
is for me to show up with my digital camera. <G>
Catherine Hampton
>healing sandpainting ritual
>
>(and if you know not what you are doing why do it?)
>Why not go to a respectable person of knowing and ask for
??? I'm sorry, but I have no idea what elicited this or why you posted it.
I'm interested in sand paintings for a couple of reasons -- I have some interest
(amateur) in Navajo culture and religion, and a lifelong interest in art. This
sand painting sounds like a genuine work of art as well as possibly a cultural
artifact of considerably interest. I'd like to see it, and get a photo of it to
post for others with similar interests.
I'm curious about the background of it, and whether it is a ritually-significant
article (like, say, an Orthodox Christian icon), or an artwork based on the
Navajo tradition of ritual sand paintings, because I don't feel that it's proper
to mistreat objects that other people hold as sacred. I'm not interested in it
as a sacred article; I'm not Navajo. But I like it when people who aren't
Orthodox Christians treat an icon with some respect, and think that "Do unto
others as you would have them do unto you" is a good rule of thumb even apart
from who said it. <G>
Philip Deitiker
> Ugh. Do you live somewhere in California, by chance? I
> live in the SF Bay area and am regularly down in southern
> California. (I'm dating someone who lives down there.) If
> you're anywhere near my usual run, maybe the way to solve
> this is for me to show up with my digital camera. <G>
Houston, Texas.
Catherine Hampton
wrote:
>> Ugh. Do you live somewhere in California, by chance? I
>> live in the SF Bay area and am regularly down in southern
>> California. (I'm dating someone who lives down there.) If
>> you're anywhere near my usual run, maybe the way to solve
>> this is for me to show up with my digital camera. <G>
>
>Houston, Texas.
I spent most of my Thanksgivings and Easters in Houston as a kid, but it's been
a LONG time since I was last there and all of my elderly great-uncles and
great-aunts have long since died.
Darn. Anyone in Houston have a digital camera, I wonder? <G>
Philip Deitiker
> On Tue, 25 May 2004 00:13:06 GMT, Philip Deitiker
> <Donev...@worlnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>> Ugh. Do you live somewhere in California, by chance? I
>>> live in the SF Bay area and am regularly down in southern
>>> California. (I'm dating someone who lives down there.)
>>> If you're anywhere near my usual run, maybe the way to
>>> solve this is for me to show up with my digital camera.
>>> <G>
>>
>>Houston, Texas.
>
> I spent most of my Thanksgivings and Easters in Houston as
> a kid, but it's been a LONG time since I was last there and
> all of my elderly great-uncles and great-aunts have long
> since died.
>
> Darn. Anyone in Houston have a digital camera, I wonder?
> <G>
I'll eventually get one. I am going to pick up USB mouse
probably tomorrow and remove it from IRQ12 and if that works I
can open up another IRQ which I can split into 2 more USB ports.
Philip Deitiker
> On 22 May 2004 08:22:05 -0700, ej...@my-deja.com (ejudy)
> wrote:
>
>>healing sandpainting ritual
>>
>>(and if you know not what you are doing why do it?)
>>Why not go to a respectable person of knowing and ask for
>
> ??? I'm sorry, but I have no idea what elicited this or
> why you posted it.
>
> I'm interested in sand paintings for a couple of reasons --
> I have some interest (amateur) in Navajo culture and
> religion, and a lifelong interest in art. This sand
> painting sounds like a genuine work of art as well as
> possibly a cultural artifact of considerably interest.
Art maybe, cultural phenomena, no. The person who painted it
painted it for artistic and not traditional reasons.
People don't place artistry into cultural traditions purely
for the sake of cultural traditions. Whether they admit
it or not there is also the artistic interpretation even if the
piece is not permanent. A sand castle being an example.
> I'd
> like to see it, and get a photo of it to post for others
> with similar interests.
EJ is also an artist, a good one at that, I would say if art is
what expands on the boundaries of art, EJ is at the expanding
part.
> But I like it when people who aren't
> Orthodox Christians treat an icon with some respect, and
> think that "Do unto others as you would have them do unto
> you" is a good rule of thumb even apart from who said it.
I am not very religious and have no real traditions of my own.
From the point of traditions and art, everything evolves, and
somewhere people are always unhappy when things do.
ejudy
> On 22 May 2004 08:22:05 -0700, ej...@my-deja.com (ejudy) wrote:
>
> >healing sandpainting ritual
> >
> >(and if you know not what you are doing why do it?)
> >Why not go to a respectable person of knowing and ask for
>
> ??? I'm sorry, but I have no idea what elicited this or why you posted it.
??
>
> I'm interested in sand paintings for a couple of reasons -- I have some interest
> (amateur) in Navajo culture and religion, and a lifelong interest in art. This
> sand painting sounds like a genuine work of art as well as possibly a cultural
> artifact of considerably interest. I'd like to see it, and get a photo of it to
> post for others with similar interests.
>
> I'm curious about the background of it, and whether it is a ritually-significant
> article (like, say, an Orthodox Christian icon), or an artwork based on the
> Navajo tradition of ritual sand paintings, because I don't feel that it's proper
> to mistreat objects that other people hold as sacred.
"Why not go to a respectable person of knowing and ask" ....
> I'm not interested in it
> as a sacred article; I'm not Navajo. But I like it when people who aren't
> Orthodox Christians treat an icon with some respect, and think that "Do unto
> others as you would have them do unto you" is a good rule of thumb even apart
> from who said it. <G>
>
>
If you truly are interested in respect then i would advise walking
slowly with lots of thought as to why you want to pursue a picture and
pass it around so quickly and to get some advice from a respectworthy
medicine person who
understands what it means to have possible misalligned motives
captured in a painting.
That is all i am saying.
>"because I don't feel that it's proper
> to mistreat objects that other people hold as sacred.
Oh and another thing, maybe navajo traditions need a bit of an upgrade
to wash the potential for misuse away from some old traditions such
that
no matter if you believe this or that or the other
all points might be adequately covered for the future.
Might add to cooperation on the world scale no matter how
tiny or large the gesture and that is my central theme.
;-))
~ej~