Phoney Egyptologists
Saida
This is what I found in my mailbox from Katherine Griffis. Maybe
posting this here will teach her to stay out of my mailbox once and for
all.
ue, 17 Dec 1996 17:06:38 GMT
From:
gri...@mindspring.com (Katherine Griffis)
Reply-To:
gri...@mindspring.com
To:
Saida <sa...@PioneerPlanet.infi.net>, Marc Line
<ma...@bosagate.demon.co.uk>
On Tue, 17 Dec 1996 08:38:28 -0600, you wrote:
>> I think that you misinterpret the issues of Egyptology, Saida, if you
>> think that it is of primary interest as to what "race" the Egyptians
>> were.
>"Primary" is your word, not mine.
> It is NOT a primary concern to anyone that *I* am aware of in
>> the field,
>You are not in a position to know. You are not an Egyptologist.
You know, lady, and I use this term quite loosely here, you wouldn't
know a real Egyptologist should one bite you: that is apparent from
the trash YOU read. I have pointed out that some of your ideas are
*off the mark*: you take umbance: fine. However, if MY e-mailbox is
to be believed, I find that YOU are not believed in half of what you
say, and that you have more gall than anyone I have ever met in this
area of "armchair Egyptologists". I read far more than you have, or
likely ever will, and my credentials are known. YOURS?
What are your credentials? I advertise yourself as an Egyptologist on
at least two sites on the web. In order to do that, you ought to have a
PhD in Egyptology. Well, from your posts, a student in Egyptology 101
would know that you don't. Underneath your signature, you claim to be
affiliated with the University of Alabama. According to your superior,
you teach an adult education course in "Grant Proposal Writing". That's
it.
>but that the issue has been blown out of proportion by both
>> Afrocentrist and Eurocentrist thought (better called Ameri-centrist,
>> as Miguel pointed out on sci.arch some months ago). Having just spent >> a better part of the month with several European and Canadian
>> Egyptologists, I can say, with some certainty, that they find this
>> whole issue somewhat confusing and *definitely* not an issue that
>> **they** are and will be concerned with.
>Tell that to Dr. Rosalie David of Manchester University. Also, did you
>happen to read the issue of Archaeology ( Sept./Oct.) dedicated to the
>study of DNA? Did you happen to see the article "The Great DNA
>Hunt--Genetic archaeology zeroes in on the origins of modern human."?
>Did you see the article by Prof. Scott Woodward? Here is an e-mail I
>received from him a while back:
>Organization:
> Brigham Young University
> To:
> Saida <sa...@PioneerPlanet.infi.net>
>Dear Saida,
>We do have enough information that we will probably publish within
>the next couple of months concerning the mitochondrial DNA of some of
>the 18th and 19th Dynasties. We do not yet have a comlete sampling
>of all of the available mummies but do have an interesting group at
>the beginning of the 18th and surrounding Rameses II in the 19th.
>Concerning the ethinic origins of the rulers of the dynasties. One
>of the things that we are trying to do is to determine just what
>exactly is an Egyptian. It well may be that an Egyptian was a very
>mixed and cosmopolitian group. Egypt has always been a place of
>refuge from famines and other natural disasters. Peoples from a wide
>area have always moved into the Nile valley. There is probably a
>good chance that we will find a wide mix of people in the genealogies
>of ancient Egypt.
>I will keep you informed as soon as the paper is accepted for
>publication. (end of letter)
And Scott is telling you what here, Saida?
Scott? Now you are claiming a personal relationship with Dr. Woodward,
too?
Nothing that indicates
that *ethnicity* is a real concern, but that he acknowledges that "an
Egyptian was a very mixed and cosmopolitian group. Egypt has always
been a place of refuge from famines and other natural disasters.
Peoples from a wide area have always moved into the Nile valley."
Tell me *where* this indicates an overwhelming interest in the very
issues that YOU have talked about with your "white"/Caucasian
Egyptians and other weird concepts that you have been espousing the
past few days.
Egyptians are varied. Many of them, past and present, have every right
to call themselves Caucasian, because they were and are. Even your
friend, the Hab, admits that much. Let's hear a few of my other "weird"
concepts.
> God, you sound worst than Seligman, and I thought**those** days were over.
What days as those. What in the hell are you spouting off about?
>I can't imagine which "Egyptologists" you were talking to. Perhaps they >had the same credentials as yourself.
Yeah, well, your fantasy may continue as long as you wish. I could
bite back as to what Yurco and others have said about you to my face,
but why bother? YOU have such airs about you that it's pathetic.
You fucking, crazy bitch. Now you have compromised Professor Yurco.
I'm sure he'll thank you for that.
>> If the American line of
>> thought to *you* seems predisposed to it, it is primarily in response
>> to allegations made by the Afrocentrist scholarship, which is a
>> uniquely American phenomenon.
>Nonsense! Afrocentrist "scholarship" has nothing to do with any of the
>studies now going on.
No, but YOUR interpretation of them certainly is the *opposite mirror*
of the Afrocentric ideology. Truly bizarre, Saida, and I think you
harbor some stange racist tendencies of your own: your attitude to the
modern Egyptians is appalling, to say the least.
You're insane. My father was a survivor of the Holocaust. What right
would I have to be racist against any people? Show me one racist remark
I have ever made!
>>
>> When I stated earlier that the US Census defined term "white" was not
>> properly used in talking about Egyptians of ancient times, you came
>> back with the term "Caucasoid" as a reference to a group of people,
>> and equating them as the same. This is fairly vague as a "racial"
>> designation, as in speaking of remains, the term "caucasoid" refers
>> primarily to bone and physical characteristics of groups of people who
>> came (possibly) from a certain location (the Caucasus Mtns), and NOT
>> to any *detailed* and definite "race" of people.
>Wrong again. My dictionary says this: "designating one of the main
>ethnic divisions of the human race; it includes Mediterranean, Alpine
>and Nordic subdevisions and is loosely called the 'white race'. When
>was the last time you heard somebody say, :I am a Caucasian--I come from
>the Caucasus Mountains?
>And such designation is outdated: has been for about 40-50 years. Getbetter books.
Such terms as these are used in default of better ones. They are only
bad when used in hate or as a means of descrimination.
Anthropologically, they are harmless.
>> Race, as far as > Egyptology has been concerned, is a term of **modern** socio-political > importance,
>I thought you just said that it has no importance whatsoever. The above >statement is false.
>Read it again, Saida: I said that the **concept** of "race" is ofmodern socio-political importance and NOT one that concerns people in
Egyptology.
I read it right the first time.
It is primarily a US concept, and its usage is particular
to the US, as the European and Canadians tend to find it just of NO
importance whatsoever: if I am to believe Marc Line's comments, I
would venture to say that that it really doesn't concern the Brits as
well. So, what does that say to YOU?
You are so full of manure you could fertilze the entire Nile Valley.
>> and not one of concern BY the ancient Egyptians (and
>> likely the modern ones as well), who were know for their ability to
>> assimilate peoples,
>The ancient Egyptians are concerned about nothing. They are long dead.
>As for the modern Egyptians, their ability to "assimilate peoples" has
>its limits, too. Or have you forgotten all the persons who were forced
>to leave Egypt during the Nasser era?
Yeah, troll on. Ain't biting: who cares?
>> and yes, this includes the Nubian groups you refer
>> to earlier. The "fighting" you refer to is an ancient tussle over the >> use of the waterways and trade routes between the ancient
Egyptians >> and Nubians, and I sincerely doubt (as would Bruce
Williams, Lanny > Bell, Donald Redford, among others), that it was based
upon any >> so-called "racial hatred" of peoples, as you have somewhat
implied,
>> from what I have seen of your most recent posts.
>I have implied nothing of the sort. Show me where I have said any such
>things. And don't ever try to associate me with "racial hatred". I
>have no interest in this topic.
Really? I see you begin fights with modern Egyptians on NG's because
you don't like them *as Egyptians*, and make some of the most
outrageous statements to the likes of Everett Battle (Groove You) that
are truly embarrassing to read. No racial hatred? Then, proofread
before you post.
You are not only a fraud, but a shameless liar. I have never picked a
fight with anyone in any newsgroup. I like Egyptians just fine, BTW.
The only ones I object to are rude, boorish people your soulmate, the
Hab.
>>
>> Further, you make reference in another post to Shaw and Nicholson's
>> definition within "The Dictionary of Ancient Egypt" wherein they
>> recount the **various theories** of where the ancient Egyptians have
>> been theorized as coming from. Please note that this definition does
>> NOT (repeat: NOT) say anything definitive as to any sort of "race"of
>> the ancient Egyptains, but discusses merely the various theories that
>> have been postulated over the many years of Egyptology, ie. from the
>> 19th century CE onward. The so-called "dynastic race" theory of
>> Emery, BTW, was disproved by Egyptologists in the early 1960's, and
>> has not been considered a *valid theory* for many years.
>Well, at least you have read my quote from the "Dictionary correctly.
>>
>> So, if you have *YOUR* theories as to your origin of the Egyptians,
>> fine. But I find little evidence within your posts that reflect much
>> of the *real* issues that concern Egyptologists.
Take those *real* issues and stick them.
>Again, how would you know the *real* issues that concern Egyptologists?
> The airs you give yourself are really quite ludicrous, Katherine.
And YOU do? Give me a break, Saida: you still buy into Budge, for
God's sake. When your readings tke you into the 20th century
scholarship issues, I'll listen to this trip you have been putting
out. You haven't a clue, as far as I see.
>>
>> Katherine Griffis (Greenberg)
>> Member of the American Research Center in Egypt
>In case anyone believes otherwise, the ARCE is an organization anyone
>can join without having any particular knowledge of Egypt whatsoever.
Yeah: you are not obviously a member, either. Honestly, Saida: get a
better hobby: this one has made you bitter.
KMT is a popular magazine that *anybody* can subscribe to as well: so
is Archaeology, and BAR. JARCE is, at least, peer reviewed. However,
since THAT publication could give two flips about your theories, why
*would* you bother??
>>
>> University of Alabama at Birmingham
>> Special Studies
>What are "Special Studies" and what have you to do with them?
I would warrant you a real answer here, but why bother? Suffice to
say that I have been with them for over 16 years as an
instructor/consultant, in this field and others. Live with it.
>>
>> http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/ccer/PEOPLE2.HTML
Now from hereon, if you have problems with what I post, deal with
*that* issue, madam. I have seen what you post to others online and
off, and should you wish to flame me again, better do it to my mailbox
and deal with my response. I WILL take action should you post it to
the NG's again.
Katherine
I told you quite awhile ago to stay out of my mailbox. I have no desire
to write you anything. I'll answer you in the newsgroups, if I feel
like it. Your threats don't worry me in the least.
Katherine Griffis
Saida <sa...@PioneerPlanet.infi.net> wrote:
>This is what I found in my mailbox from Katherine Griffis. Maybe
>posting this here will teach her to stay out of my mailbox once and for
>all.
<SNIP OF THE MOST INSULTING AND VICIOUS TRIPE I HAVE EVER SEEN>
Normally, I would not respond in any manner to such rudeness, but I
post this to say to *anyone* who wishes to know the truth of my
background and credential in this area, they may contact MY Dean of
the Department of Special Studies at the University of Alabama at
Birmingham to find out the REAL story. That telephone number of the
US is 205/934-7451.
Saida has made it clear that she is *out to get me*, and for what
reason, I do NOT care.
Regards --
Katherine Griffis (Greenberg)
Member of the American Research Center in Egypt
University of Alabama at Birmingham
Special Studies
http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/ccer/PEOPLE2.HTML
Saida
Katherine Griffis wrote:
>
> Saida <sa...@PioneerPlanet.infi.net> wrote:
>
> >This is what I found in my mailbox from Katherine Griffis. Maybe
> >posting this here will teach her to stay out of my mailbox once and for
> >all.
>
All written by you, Katherine, O Queen of Prevaricators. I don't blame
you for wanted to snip it out. You really embarrassed yourself.
>
> Normally, I would not respond in any manner to such rudeness, but I
> post this to say to *anyone* who wishes to know the truth of my
> background and credential in this area, they may contact MY Dean of
> the Department of Special Studies at the University of Alabama at
> Birmingham to find out the REAL story. That telephone number of the
> US is 205/934-7451.
That's probably Katherine's home number. Try (205) 934-8740. Katherine
Griffis teaches an adult education course for persons not actually
enrolled at the University of Alabama. Her class is in "Grant
Writing". It has absolutely nothing to do with Egyptology. Anyway, the
University of Alabama does not have a department of Near Eastern
studies, as far as I know. Griffis touts herself as an Egyptologist,
which most definitely she is not. Even an "armchair Egyptologist", as
she calls me, can tell that. That fact is abundantly clear--even were
she to show me a sheepskin as big as a Navajo blanket, I would still
never believe Katherine Griffis is an Egyptologist. Nevertheless, she
has listed herself on Nigel Strudwick's Egypt pages as an Egyptologist
out of the University of Alabama on a list of e-mail addresses of
Egyptologists around the world. Strudwick, however, being no fool,
prints a disclaimer at the start of this list, saying that he feels sure
that not all the persons therein are accredited in this field. Griffis
has also placed herself on a list of North American Egyptologists on the
web pages of the OI, I believe, and has actually been advising people to
go to the site and see her name. I have known about this for a long
time and have said nothing until Griffis began to use her "credentials"
and started to drop the names of actual Egyptologists she "hobnobs with"
to attack me, I got fed up. I asked her just what her position was at
the university she always puts after her name. The result was the
vicious e-mail I posted at the start of this thread. Not content to
perpetuate falsehoods concerning herself, she is now spreading lies
about me and my activities in the newsgroups. She was asking for a dime
to be dropped on her. This is it. People work hard and make many
sacrifices to earn their PhDs. Why a person like Katherine Griffis
feels she has the right to circumvent all this and simply pluck a degree
out of Cracker Jack box in order to lend herself some sort of cachet in
a science-oriented newsgroup, is incomprehensible to me. It implies a
basic lack of self-confidence that seems odd in such an arrogant
individual.
>
> Saida has made it clear that she is *out to get me*, and for what
> reason, I do NOT care.
>
> Regards --
>
> Katherine Griffis (Greenberg)
> Member of the American Research Center in Egypt
>
> University of Alabama at Birmingham
> Special Studies
>
> http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/ccer/PEOPLE2.HTML
I am out to get you? You con-artist! You should have dropped this like
a hot potato, but it looks like you want to continue. Nobody could do
your reputation more damage than you are currently doing to yourself.
Here--in case anybody missed your letter to me--is what you wrote. It
looks to me like the person who was out to "get" somebody, to do a good
job of slandering, is none other than yourself! So why don't you tell
us where you got your degree in Egyptology, which year, and where you
completed your studies.
Saida:
What are your credentials? You advertise yourself as an Egyptologist on
>Dear Saida,
too? Dr. Woodward is telling me his aims. That the populace of ancient
Egypt was mixed, I already know.
Katherine:
Nothing that indicates
that *ethnicity* is a real concern, but that he acknowledges that "an
Egyptian was a very mixed and cosmopolitian group. Egypt has always
been a place of refuge from famines and other natural disasters.
Peoples from a wide area have always moved into the Nile valley."
Tell me *where* this indicates an overwhelming interest in the very
issues that YOU have talked about with your "white"/Caucasian
Egyptians and other weird concepts that you have been espousing the
past few days.
Saida:
Egyptians are varied. Many of them, past and present, have every right
to call themselves Caucasian, because they were and are. Even your
friend, the Hab, admits that much. Let's hear a few of my other "weird"
concepts.
> God, you sound worst than Seligman, and I thought**those** days were over.
What days are those? What in the hell are you spouting off about?
>I can't imagine which "Egyptologists" you were talking to. Perhaps they >had the same credentials as yourself.
Katherine:
Yeah, well, your fantasy may continue as long as you wish. I could
bite back as to what Yurco and others have said about you to my face,
but why bother? YOU have such airs about you that it's pathetic.
Saida:
You fucking, crazy bitch. Now you have compromised Professor Yurco.
I'm sure he'll thank you for that.
>> If the American line of
>> thought to *you* seems predisposed to it, it is primarily in response
>> to allegations made by the Afrocentrist scholarship, which is a
>> uniquely American phenomenon.
Saida:
>Nonsense! Afrocentrist "scholarship" has nothing to do with any of the
>studies now going on.
No, but YOUR interpretation of them certainly is the *opposite mirror*
of the Afrocentric ideology. Truly bizarre, Saida, and I think you
harbor some stange racist tendencies of your own: your attitude to the
modern Egyptians is appalling, to say the least.
Saida:
You're insane. My father was a survivor of the Holocaust. What right
would I have to be racist against any people? Show me one racist remark
I have ever made!
Katherine:
>>
>> When I stated earlier that the US Census defined term "white" was not
>> properly used in talking about Egyptians of ancient times, you came
>> back with the term "Caucasoid" as a reference to a group of people,
>> and equating them as the same. This is fairly vague as a "racial"
>> designation, as in speaking of remains, the term "caucasoid" refers
>> primarily to bone and physical characteristics of groups of people who >> came (possibly) from a certain location (the Caucasus Mtns), and
NOT >> to any *detailed* and definite "race" of people.
Saida:
>Wrong again. My dictionary says this: "designating one of the main
>ethnic divisions of the human race; it includes Mediterranean, Alpine
>and Nordic subdevisions and is loosely called the 'white race'. When
>was the last time you heard somebody say, :I am a Caucasian--I come from >the Caucasus Mountains?
>And such designation is outdated: has been for about 40-50 years. Getbetter books.
Saida:
It looks to me like your dictionary was printed in the Caucasus
mountains!
Such terms as these are used in default of better ones. They are only
bad when used in hate or as a means of descrimination.
Anthropologically, they are harmless.
Katherine:
>> Race, as far as > Egyptology has been concerned, is a term of **modern** socio-political > importance,
Saida:
>I thought you just said that it has no importance whatsoever. The above >statement is false.
>Read it again, Saida: I said that the **concept** of "race" is ofmodern socio-political importance and NOT one that concerns people in
Egyptology.
I read it right the first time.
Katherine:
It is primarily a US concept, and its usage is particular
to the US, as the European and Canadians tend to find it just of NO
importance whatsoever: if I am to believe Marc Line's comments, I
would venture to say that that it really doesn't concern the Brits as
well. So, what does that say to YOU?
Saida:
You are so full of manure you could fertilze the entire Nile Valley.
Katherine:
>> and not one of concern BY the ancient Egyptians (and
>> likely the modern ones as well), who were know for their ability to
>> assimilate peoples,
Saida:
>The ancient Egyptians are concerned about nothing. They are long dead.
>As for the modern Egyptians, their ability to "assimilate peoples" has
>its limits, too. Or have you forgotten all the persons who were forced
>to leave Egypt during the Nasser era?
Katherine:
Yeah, troll on. Ain't biting: who cares?
>> and yes, this includes the Nubian groups you refer
>> to earlier. The "fighting" you refer to is an ancient tussle over the >> use of the waterways and trade routes between the ancient
Egyptians >> and Nubians, and I sincerely doubt (as would Bruce
Williams, Lanny > Bell, Donald Redford, among others), that it was based
upon any >> so-called "racial hatred" of peoples, as you have somewhat
implied, >> from what I have seen of your most recent posts.
>Name-dropping again! I have implied nothing of the sort. Show me where I have said any such >things. And don't ever try to associate me
with "racial hatred". I>have no interest in this topic.
Katherine:
Really? I see you begin fights with modern Egyptians on NG's because
you don't like them *as Egyptians*, and make some of the most
outrageous statements to the likes of Everett Battle (Groove You) that
are truly embarrassing to read. No racial hatred? Then, proofread
before you post.
Saida:
You are not only a fraud, but a shameless liar. I have never picked a
fight with anyone in any newsgroup. I like Egyptians just fine, BTW.
The only ones I object to are rude, boorish people like your soulmate,
the Hab.
Katherine:
>>
>> Further, you make reference in another post to Shaw and Nicholson's
>> definition within "The Dictionary of Ancient Egypt" wherein they
>> recount the **various theories** of where the ancient Egyptians have
>> been theorized as coming from. Please note that this definition does
>> NOT (repeat: NOT) say anything definitive as to any sort of "race"of
>> the ancient Egyptains, but discusses merely the various theories that
>> have been postulated over the many years of Egyptology, ie. from the
>> 19th century CE onward. The so-called "dynastic race" theory of
>> Emery, BTW, was disproved by Egyptologists in the early 1960's, and
>> has not been considered a *valid theory* for many years.
>Well, at least you have read my quote from the "Dictionary correctly. I find it an excellent summary of the topic of the ethnicity of the
ancient Egyptians and I concur with it to the last semi-colon.
>Katherine:
>> So, if you have *YOUR* theories as to your origin of the Egyptians,
>> fine.
She hasn't the slightest notion what my "theories" are.
> But I find little evidence within your posts that reflect much
>> of the *real* issues that concern Egyptologists.
Take those *real* issues and stick them. Why don't you be specific so
people will know which posts you're referring to?
>Again, how would you know the *real* issues that concern Egyptologists?
> The airs you give yourself are really quite ludicrous, Katherine.
Katherine:
And YOU do? Give me a break, Saida: you still buy into Budge, for
God's sake.
I'm not buying and I'm not selling. There are plenty of good things in
Budge's writings. I also read Heroditus, Diodorus Siculus, Josephus,
etc. They predate Budge by a few millenia. Are they no good, as well?
Katherine:
When your readings tke you into the 20th century
scholarship issues, I'll listen to this trip you have been putting
out. You haven't a clue, as far as I see.
As I said, you wouldn't know. I don't see you participating in any of
the discussions I take part in here and I hear that you don't know
ancient Egyptian at all--strange for an Egyptologist. Give it up,
Katherine, while you have some face to save.
>>
>> Katherine Griffis (Greenberg)
>> Member of the American Research Center in Egypt
>In case anyone believes otherwise, the ARCE is an organization anyone
>can join without having any particular knowledge of Egypt whatsoever.
Yeah: you are not obviously a member, either. Honestly, Saida: get a
better hobby: this one has made you bitter.
Saida:
It is your "hobby" as well as mine. I think it's a pretty good one.
Katherine:
KMT is a popular magazine that *anybody* can subscribe to as well: so
is Archaeology, and BAR. JARCE is, at least, peer reviewed. However,
since THAT publication could give two flips about your theories, why
*would* you bother??
>>
>> University of Alabama at Birmingham
>> Special Studies
>What are "Special Studies" and what have you to do with them?
I would warrant you a real answer here, but why bother? Suffice to
say that I have been with them for over 16 years as an
instructor/consultant, in this field and others. Live with it.
>>
>> http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/ccer/PEOPLE2.HTML
Now from hereon, if you have problems with what I post, deal with
*that* issue, madam. I have seen what you post to others online and
off, and should you wish to flame me again, better do it to my mailbox
and deal with my response. I WILL take action should you post it to
the NG's again.
Saida:
So THAT's your real occupation--running an espionage ring! Who would
show you my off-line correspondence? Is everyone you know as phoney as
you are?
Vladimir Vooss
All snipped---
Saida,
And you are an archaeologist, a scientist, an academic, a human being?
Who do you think is going to believe such second rate sub-human crap?
Such - theatre! This isn't even flaming, in the usual sense. I wonder
who or what's "operating you", and, most interestingly, why is the
guardia academica so strangely silent. Let this one do the dirty work,
so that those others, with killfiles in full motor can come in for the -
save the day kill. The unimportant postings are thus neatly sideswiped,
the topic is smothered - and who stands to profit?
Vladimir
Saida
What the hell are you trying to say? You don't even know what's behind
all this. It looks to me like you are in favor of anyone claiming any
sort of expertise they like, or attaching any sort of degree to the
beginning or end of his or her name that suits them. Well, I would like
to claim to be a brain surgeon. Would you like to be my first patient?
Marc Line
On Wed, 18 Dec 1996, at 14:44:00, Saida cajoled electrons into this
>People work hard and make many
>sacrifices to earn their PhDs. Why a person like Katherine Griffis
>feels she has the right to circumvent all this and simply pluck a degree
>out of Cracker Jack box in order to lend herself some sort of cachet in
>a science-oriented newsgroup, is incomprehensible to me.
Saida
I feel it is perhaps time for you to stop making such a fool of
yourself.
Since your contention seems to be based around your assertion that
Katherine has laid claim to a PhD in Egyptology, perhaps you would care
to furnish us all with the evidence which you consider to be so
incontrovertible. I'm sure that you would be able to find it within
seconds if it exists. If it does not, or you cannot, then you would
perhaps be best advised to cease this libellous petulance and offer up
the public apology whilst there are still those here who find you mildly
entertaining.
I, for one, am waiting for more than your raucous howling. There is a
maxim in law which runs along the lines that a person is innocent until
proven guilty. Since you have set yourself up as judge, jury and
executioner, and furthermore have decided to drag your trial into the
public domain, I should suggest that it is encumbent on you to now
furnish the evidence upon which you have based your condemnation.
Readers will doubtless draw their own conclusions as to your motivations
and reliability should you fail to do so.
There is the challenge. Cam you meet it?
I am waiting with interest.
Regards
Marc
Christopher John Camfield
I probably shouldn't jump in to this flamewar, but...
1) Regardess of content, posting email without permission is breaking
copyright, and absolutely terrible Netiquette.
You just wrote:
> You're insane. My father was a survivor of the Holocaust. What right
> would I have to be racist against any people? Show me one racist remark
> I have ever made!
2) Saida, you have stated that the Minoan culture was started by
Phoenicians who settled there, created a fake religion for the masses, and
left, all without leaving any definitely Phoenician evidence. (And that
the collapse of the Mycenean society was caused by all the lovely
Phoenicians sailing off, along with everyone with an advanced skill.) My
interpretation of your statements, from our argument here earlier this
fall, was that basically you didn't feel the Cretan inhabitants were smart
enough or otherwise good enough to have created their own culture or
accomplished the things that the Minoans did on their own.
Do I have to go back and dig out the comments you made?
Chris
--
Chris Camfield - ccam...@freenet.carleton.ca
"The urge to discover secrets is deeply ingrained in human nature."
(John Chadwick, _The Decipherment of Linear B_)
Saida
Christopher John Camfield wrote:
>
> I probably shouldn't jump in to this flamewar, but...
>
> 1) Regardess of content, posting email without permission is breaking
> copyright, and absolutely terrible Netiquette.
>
> You just wrote:
> > would I have to be racist against any people? Show me one racist remark
> > I have ever made!
>
> Phoenicians who settled there, created a fake religion for the masses, and > left, all without leaving any definitely Phoenician evidence.
(And that > the collapse of the Mycenean society was caused by all the
lovely > Phoenicians sailing off, along with everyone with an advanced
skill.) My > interpretation of your statements, from our argument here
earlier this > fall, was that basically you didn't feel the Cretan
inhabitants were smart > enough or otherwise good enough to have created
their own culture or > accomplished the things that the Minoans did on
their own.
>
> Do I have to go back and dig out the comments you made?
>
> Chris
Please do! I have never seen your name in my life and have never
engaged in a discussion about Minoans with you or anybody else.
Saida
Marc Line wrote:
>
> On Wed, 18 Dec 1996, at 14:44:00, Saida cajoled electrons into this
>
> >People work hard and make many
> >sacrifices to earn their PhDs. Why a person like Katherine Griffis
> >feels she has the right to circumvent all this and simply pluck a degree > >out of Cracker Jack box in order to lend herself some sort of
cachet in > >a science-oriented newsgroup, is incomprehensible to me.
>
> Saida
>
> I feel it is perhaps time for you to stop making such a fool of
> yourself.
>
> Since your contention seems to be based around your assertion that
> Katherine has laid claim to a PhD in Egyptology, perhaps you would care > to furnish us all with the evidence which you consider to be so
> incontrovertible. I'm sure that you would be able to find it within
> seconds if it exists. If it does not, or you cannot, then you would
> perhaps be best advised to cease this libellous petulance and offer up
> the public apology whilst there are still those here who find you mildly > entertaining.
Get ready to be entertained some more. Here you go, Marc.
Xina wrote:
>She has NEVER represented herself as such to me or anyone else that I am > aware of. Like you she has a deep interest in the subject. Unlike
you > she has made it her business to find out as much about it as
possible > with the maximum of current sources, has never at any time
claimed to be > an acredited, Egyptologist. Tear that apart if like. It
does not change
Is that so? What's this then?
Email addresses of Egyptologists (Nigel Strudwick's Egypt Pages from
Cambridge University) 4 December 1996
This file contains ethereal addresses of Egyptologists (graduate
students and professionals) known to us, in a format that can be
sorted by last name. We do not know all the people personally, and some
may not really be Egyptologists. (many names snipped)
Allen, James P.; Metropolitan Museum, New York
73223...@compuserve.com
(will also accept mail for other members of the Egyptian dept)
Altenmueller, Hartwig; Hamburg University
Arrache, Gabriela; Sociedad Mexicana de Egiptologia
ak...@data.net.mx
Assmann, Jan; University of Heidelberg
a...@ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de
Aubourg, Eric; Paris
aub...@hep.saclay.cea.fr
Bagnall, Roger S.; Columbia University bag...@columbia.edu
Bagh, Tine; Carsten Niebuhr Inst., Copenhagen ba...@coco.ihi.ku.dk
Baines, John; University of Oxford
john....@orinst.ox.ac.uk
Baligh, Randa; Yale University
rab...@minerva.cis.yale.edu
Bard, Kathryn; Boston University kb...@acs.bu.edu
Barker, M. A. R.; University of Minnesota b
horst.b...@vax.rz.uni-wuerzburg.d400.de
Bell, Lanny; University of Chicago
lanny...@memphis-orinst.uchicago.edu
Bergman, Diane; The Brooklyn Museum
bkln...@metgate.metro.org
Bergman, Dag; New York 7676...@compuserve.com
Bohleke, Briant; Yale University b.bo...@yale.edu
Bolshakov, Andrey O.; Hermitage Mus. St.Petersburg
imh...@bolshakov.spb.ru
Bovot, Jean-Luc; Louvre, Paris bo...@louvre.fr
Brand, Peter; Toronto University pbr...@chass.utoronto.ca
Brancaglion, Antonio Jr.; Universidade de Sao Paulo anu...@usp.br
British Museum, London
eg...@british-museum.ac.uk
Departmental address for Egyprian Antiquities
Egyptologists include Carol Andrews, Morris Bierbrier, Vivian
Davies,
Richard Parkinson, Stephen Quirke, Jeffrey Spencer, John Taylor,
Derek Welsby
Brooklyn Museum see note above
Dodson, Aidan; London
10076...@compuserve.com
Dorman, Peter; University of Chicago
peter_...@memphis-orinst.uchicago.edu
Griffith Institute, University of Oxford gri...@ashmus.ox.ac.uk
(see also McKay, Magee, Malek, Miles) or: gri...@vax.ox.ac.uk
Griffis (Greenberg), Katherine; Univ. Alabama gri...@usa.pipeline.com
Guksch, Heike; Heidelberg University
b...@ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de
There she is, right up there with some of the foremost Egyptologist in
the world, supposedly at the University of Alabama (except her e-mail
address, as you know, has nothing to do with any university). Then,
here she comes again--on the Centre for Computer Aided Egyptological
Research list of Egyptologist:
Hare, Tom; Stanford University
th...@leland.stanford.edu
Dr. Robert S. Bianchi, 1056 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10028-0112
Dr. Edward Bleiberg, c/o Memphis State University, Inst. of Egypt.
Art and Arch.,
Memphis, Tennessee 38152
Dr. Briant Bohleke, PO Box 202717, Yale Station, New Haven, CT
06520-2717,
[e-mail: b.bo...@yale.edu]
Mr. Kim Bongiorno, P.O. Box 23783, Tempe, AZ 85285
Dr. Edward J. Brovarski, 1264 Beacon Street, Brookline, MA 02146
Dr. Betsy M. Bryan, 5410 Purlington Way, Baltimore, MD 21210
Dr. Karl W. Butzer, c/o University of Texas, Department of
Geography, Austin, TX
78712
Dr. Diane Lee Carroll, c/o Calif. Academie of Sciences, Golden Gate
Park, San
Francisco, CA 93118
Miss Suzanne Chapman, c/o M F A, Dept. of Egyptian Art, 475
Huntington Avenue,
Boston, MA 02115
Prof. Virginia Condon-Viscusi, Box H, Armonk, NY 10504
Prof.Dr. Lorelei Corcoran, Memphis State University, Memphis,
Tennessee 38152
Dr. Carol Crown, c/o Memphis State University, Institute of
Egyptian Art, Memphis,
Tenessee 38152
Dr. Eugene D. Cruz-Uribe, 3175 West Brenda Loop, Flagstaff, AZ
86001
Mr. Whitney M. Davis, c/o Dept. of Art History, 1859 Sheridan
Road,, Kresge Cent. Hall
254, Evanston, IL 60201
Mr. Leo Depuydt, c/o Dept. of Egyptology, P.O. Box 1899,
Providence, RI 02906
Dr. Peter Der Manuelian, 177 Marlborough St., Apt. 1, Boston, MA
02116
Prof. Dr. Peter F. Dorman, 5715 S. Kenwood Avenue, Apt. 3-N,
Chicago, IL 60637
(snip)
rof. Dr. Hans Goedicke, The J.Hopkins Univ., Dept. NE Studies,
Charles and 34th
Street, Baltimore, Maryland 21218
Prof. Dr. Ogden Goelet, 240 East 27th Street, Apt. 25F, New York,
NY 10016
Katherine Griffis (Greenberg) University of Alabama at Birmingham
P.O. Box 43159,
Birmingham, AL 35243-0159 [Voice: 205/995-2099; Fax: 205/995-2099
(Enter *77*,
press SEND) or 205/991-0304; e-mail: gri...@usa.pipeline.com OR
gri...@ix.netcom.com]
Mrs. Emma Swan Hall, 1080 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10028
Ms. Joyce Haynes, 86 Wilson Road, Nahant, MA 01098
Ms. Marsha Hill, c/o M M A, Dept. of Egyptian Art, 1000 Fifth
Avenue, New York, NY
Xina wrote:
> Wolf pack behavior? Where do you get your delusions?
From messages like this from someone who is supposed not involved with
this--you. P.S. with friends like you and Marc Line, Griffis doesn't
need enemies. You are causing her more trouble than if you had kept
your mouths shut.
>
> > I am always going > > to come back with the same reply: Katherine Griffis is NOT an > > Egyptologist and has no right to keep representing
herself as such. Now mark this, Marc:
I know it's the Yuletide season, but I have already had enough
fruitcake. From now on Xina, Marc Line and the Hab go right into my
kill-file. Your names will not appear on my screen again. And stay out
of my mailbox, all of you, or I'll start reporting you to your servers
as a nuisance. However, Katherine Griffis, the one who started all
this, who began to insinuate that I am a racist just because I am
interested in the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians (the only people
whose ethnicity I care anything about), she will NOT go into my
kill-file. In fact, her posts will undergo a much more careful scrutiny
by me than ever before. This "Egyptologist" had better start dotting
her i's and crossing her t's and make sure she gets all her info right
because I am going to bother her more than the worst boil that ever
festered on her "Egyptological" butt.
Xina
Saida wrote:
> Marc Line wrote:
> > I feel it is perhaps time for you to stop making such a fool of
> > yourself.
I second that motion. Saida....good manners and courtesy cost nothing.
you would
>
> Get ready to be entertained some more. Here you go, Marc.
>
> Xina wrote:
>
>(snipped)
> Is that so? What's this then?
That is *You* being extremely redundant and threatening to blow a gasket
over pettiness.
(snipped; lets cut to the chase, Saida)
> Griffis (Greenberg), Katherine; Univ. Alabama gri...@usa.pipeline.com
> Guksch, Heike; Heidelberg University
> b...@ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de
>
> There she is, right up there with some of the foremost Egyptologist in
> the world, supposedly at the University of Alabama (except her e-mail
> address, as you know, has nothing to do with any university). Then,
> here she comes again--on the Centre for Computer Aided Egyptological
> Research list of Egyptologist:
> press SEND) or 205/991-0304; e-mail: gri...@usa.pipeline.com OR
> gri...@ix.netcom.com]
Where does that say anything about being tenured and degreed in
Egytology?
>
> Xina wrote:
> > Wolf pack behavior? Where do you get your delusions?
>
> From messages like this from someone who is supposed not involved with
> this--you. P.S. with friends like you and Marc Line, Griffis doesn't
> need enemies. You are causing her more trouble than if you had kept
> your mouths shut.
They are mentioned in your emails, and posts in my responses to you when
I mention them in a post, it is cc'd to the person that is mentioned in
that post. It is called COMMON COURTESY AND NETIQUETTE! It is a
standard proceedure, look it up if you don't believe me.
>
> I know it's the Yuletide season, but I have already had enough
> fruitcake. From now on Xina, Marc Line and the Hab go right into my
> kill-file. Your names will not appear on my screen again.
THANK YOU! Oh ye gods! Does this mean she stop!? I shall not hold my
breath! (Who are you trying to kid, Saida?!)
And stay out
> of my mailbox, all of you, or I'll start reporting you to your servers
> as a nuisance.
Yes, Ma'am.
However, Katherine Griffis, the one who started all
> this, who began to insinuate that I am a racist
No, of course not. Youre completely blameless... ONLY **you** are a
shining example of what is best in all of us. Your even temper and
impeccable spelling abilities (I still remember the "dun't fuck with me"
line...BTW it's spelled "D-O-N-'-T") leave us all envious and completely
pale (no racial implications here) in your shadow (again not a racial
implication)! I don't (see I spelled it right...pretty good huh!?) know
*HOW* any of us on the PLANET let alone these poor little newsgroups
COULD EVER (emphasis mine) measure up to you! We are not worthy to
grovel in thy presence oh Mistress! *bow* *scrape*
just because I am
> interested in the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians (the only people
> whose ethnicity I care anything about)
Why can't you just love yourself...you aren't Egyptian or an
Egyptologist (unless you define it by Doug/Marc/The Rest Of The World's
definiition of what an Egyptologist is.) What does their ethnicity have
to do with you?
, she will NOT go into my
> kill-file. In fact, her posts will undergo a much more careful scrutiny
> by me than ever before.
I have my own theories why *that* is...I think you can catch my meaning
without spelling it out for you. But if you insist I CAN.
This "Egyptologist" had better start dotting
> her i's and crossing her t's and make sure she gets all her info right
> because I am going to bother her more than the worst boil that ever
> festered on her "Egyptological" butt.
Maybe its time to see to that boil and lance it?
Maresh
First, my apologies to everyone for the duplication.
I wanted to be sure that Saida reads this challenge to supply evidence
to support her thus far wholly unsubstantiated and libellous allegations
against Katherine. By posting this, circumventing her kill-file, her
failure to do so will be seen for what it is, evidence of her own
treachery and/or malice.
Of course, in archaeology, lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.
However, in science, a contention can really only be proven by
presentation of incontrovertible evidence to a peer review panel. Here
is the panel Saida, the good readers of this newsgroup.
Now, where is the evidence?
On Wed, 18 Dec 1996, at 14:44:00, Saida cajoled electrons into this
>People work hard and make many
>sacrifices to earn their PhDs. Why a person like Katherine Griffis
>feels she has the right to circumvent all this and simply pluck a degree
>out of Cracker Jack box in order to lend herself some sort of cachet in
>a science-oriented newsgroup, is incomprehensible to me.
Saida
I feel it is perhaps time for you to stop making such a fool of
yourself.
Since your contention seems to be based around your assertion that
Katherine has laid claim to a PhD in Egyptology, perhaps you would care
to furnish us all with the evidence which you consider to be so
incontrovertible. I'm sure that you would be able to find it within
seconds if it exists. If it does not, or you cannot, then you would
perhaps be best advised to cease this libellous petulance and offer up
the public apology whilst there are still those here who find you mildly
entertaining.
I, for one, am waiting for more than your raucous howling. There is a
maxim in law which runs along the lines that a person is innocent until
proven guilty. Since you have set yourself up as judge, jury and
executioner, and furthermore have decided to drag your trial into the
public domain, I should suggest that it is incumbent on you to now
furnish the evidence upon which you have based your condemnation.
Readers will doubtless draw their own conclusions as to your motivations
and reliability should you fail to do so.
There is the challenge. Can you meet it?
Saida
Whatever you change your name to, you are still a shmuck. Why do you
ask for the same evidence every day, only to come back with--"well, the
dictionary says an Egyptologist is anyone who studies Egyptology".
Right! People knock themselves out for years trying to earn their
PhD's. Why should they trouble themselves? They could get their
degrees from a box of Cracker Jacks like Griffis did and still have
themselves listed, as she has done, with all the greats of the science.
You, yourself, have already admitted Griffis is no Egyptologist. So
what are you going on about? What is all this to you? Why should you
be angry with me for saying what you already know to be the truth?
Besides, when I wrote that perhaps the Hab got his ideas from his"
phoney Egytologist" friends, you wrote me at once asking if it was you I
meant! Why was that? Are you, also, falsely claiming to be involved
with archaeology? Why should you be uneasy? This is about the third
time I have given you this information. Why don't you accept it and
shut the hell up!:Email addresses of Egyptologists (Nigel Strudwick's
Egypt Pages from
Cambridge University) 4 December 1996
This file contains ethereal addresses of Egyptologists (graduate
students and professionals) known to us, in a format that can be
sorted by last name. We do not know all the people personally, and some
may not really be Egyptologists. (many names snipped)
Allen, James P.; Metropolitan Museum, New York
73223...@compuserve.com
(will also accept mail for other members of the Egyptian dept)
Altenmueller, Hartwig; Hamburg University
z
Griffis (Greenberg), Katherine; Univ. Alabama gri...@usa.pipeline.com
Guksch, Heike; Heidelberg University
b...@ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de
There she is, right up there with some of the foremost Egyptologist in
the world, supposedly at the University of Alabama (except her e-mail
address, as you know, has nothing to do with any university). Then,
here she comes again--on the Centre for Computer Aided Egyptological
Research list of Egyptologist:
press SEND) or 205/991-0304; e-mail: gri...@usa.pipeline.com OR
gri...@ix.netcom.com]
Alan M. Dunsmuir
In article <59d1a4$6...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, Christopher John
Camfield <ab...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> writes
>
>I probably shouldn't jump in to this flamewar, but...
>
>1) Regardess of content, posting email without permission is breaking
>copyright, and absolutely terrible Netiquette.
>
Saida appears periodically to have difficulty getting access to adequate
quantities of her prescribed medication.
--
Alan M. Dunsmuir
Were diu werlt alle min von deme mere unze an den Rijn
des wolt ih mih darben,
daz diu chunigen von Engellant lege an minen armen!
Douglas Weller
On Fri, 20 Dec 1996 08:10:32 -0600, Saida <sa...@PioneerPlanet.infi.net>
wrote:
>
>Email addresses of Egyptologists (Nigel Strudwick's Egypt Pages from
>Cambridge University) 4 December 1996
>
Ok, Nigel will be back soon, I'm sure he'll be in touch with me shortly after
he returns, and this bit at least can be sorted out I'm positive.
--
Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated
Submissions to:sci-archaeol...@medieval.org
Requests To: arch-mo...@ucl.ac.uk
Co-owner UK-Schools mailing list: email me for details
Marc Line
On Sat, 21 Dec 1996, at 09:24:06, Saida cajoled electrons into this
liberally snipped, as usual, for sanity
>Whatever you change your name to, you are still a shmuck.
Why thank you darling. You *do* still love me!
>Why do you
>ask for the same evidence every day, only to come back with--"well, the
>dictionary says an Egyptologist is anyone who studies Egyptology".
>Right!
Because as yet, you have failed to provide the evidence I seek. Allow
me to remind you. You have said, and I quote you from this very letter:
>> >People work hard and make many
>> >sacrifices to earn their PhDs. Why a person like Katherine Griffis
>> >feels she has the right to circumvent all this and simply pluck a degree
>> >out of Cracker Jack box in order to lend herself some sort of cachet in
>> >a science-oriented newsgroup, is incomprehensible to me.
Show us where Katherine has stated or claimed that she holds a degree or
a doctorate in Egyptology. You can't can you? You don't have the
decency to admit it so you engage, instead, in all manner of convoluted
attempts at distraction. How did you define Obfuscation? I am
gratified to note that you have followed my predictions to the letter.
Further, since I have come to realise that your word stands for nothing,
I should rather rely on the definition of "Egyptologist" as defined in
the dictionary of the language in use here, accepted by the world at
large, rather than the one which you have contrived for your own
malicious purposes.
>People knock themselves out for years trying to earn their
>PhD's.
Agreed. And others just study privately for 30 years or so and are
employed for their knowledge and abilities in the teaching of a subject.
I should suggest that both classes are eligible to be considered as
worthy.
>Why should they trouble themselves?
Because it is an accolade of achievement and it entitles them to place
PhD after their names.
>They could get their
>degrees from a box of Cracker Jacks like Griffis did
There, you're at it again. Where's the evidence of this?
>You, yourself, have already admitted Griffis is no Egyptologist.
My quote please?
>So
>what are you going on about?
I'm going on about rights. In essence it is a question of the right of
an individual to expect that when their probity is being contested,
evidence should be provided to substantiate allegations.
>What is all this to you?
I happen to be interested in honour and fair play. Were you the victim
here, I should be standing up for you. I have done so in the past, as
you well know.
>Why should you
>be angry with me for saying what you already know to be the truth?
I am not angry with you darling. Rather I am dismayed that I was ever
foolish enough to consider that you were a person of integrity. You
*would* know the difference and you are not saying what I know to be the
truth.
>Besides, when I wrote that perhaps the Hab got his ideas from his"
>phoney Egytologist" friends, you wrote me at once asking if it was you I
>meant!
Ah Marianne, you have changed the wording somewhat. Allow me to quote
my private email to save you the trouble of doing so. Would you care to
repeat your reply? You do not seem to understand sarcasm.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hi Marianne
>Or can it be that your soul-mates,
>those feeding you information, are certain people falsely advertising
>themselves on the web as "Egyptologists" and whose input is spurious and
>not to be trusted?
You have always struck me as being above all the ad hominem sniping
which goes on in these places. I should like to continue to view your
opinions and scholarship against that background. Please assure me that
the above was simply the result of a bad day as it tends to devalue what
you said before it. Who do you mean to be encompassed within that
allusion by the way? I'm not sure if the cap fits me and I wonder if
people such as Troy S and Frank Y might wonder the same. :)
Best regards
Marc
XX
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Why was that?
Because I wondered if the thinly veiled allusion (noting the plurals) in
your posting was a reference to me or the others, since I had agreed
with Hab about a minor point. Further than that, I know a set-up when I
see one and I wanted you to be up front about it rather than skulking
around behind word forms which you doubtless considered to be clever.
>Are you, also, falsely claiming to be involved
>with archaeology?
No. Having anticipated that attempts at distraction would be the next
step in your pattern of obfuscation, I have taken the liberty of
preparing the ground.
Rather than publish the whole list of people with whom I work, I shall
limit myself to three, which, I hope, will satisfy your insatiable
thirst for knowledge about my private life and prevent you going on to
libel me.
You must feel free to call any of these people in respect of the
B.H.A.S. and our archaeological work.
Dr Tim Potter - British Museum
Head of Romano-British Department
(Ask Tim why he should propose us for membership of the CBA if he had
any doubts as to our eligibilty.)
Dr Graham Webster O.B.E., M.A., PhD., D.Litt., F.S.A., A.M.A., Hon.
M.I.F.A.
(Ask Graham why he should second us for membership of the CBA if he had
any doubts as to our eligibility.)
Dr Mike Heyworth - Deputy Director C.B.A.
Council for British Archaeology
(Both Graham and Mike were entertained as visitors to the site of
excavations in 1994. You might care to ask them if they were visiting a
figment of my imagination.)
Their telephone numbers are in the book. Enjoy your conversations but
be sure you speak to them personally, rather than their secretaries or
their receptionists.
I could also give you the names, addresses and telephone numbers of the
200+ students (many referred by Universities) who have worked under my
direction in the course of our excavations during the last 13 years in
the field. I've even had some students from the USA working for me if
you would like me to put you in touch with them. It may also interest
you to note that the work which we have undertaken has been self
financed to the tune of more than 250000 UKP. Yes, that's a quarter of
a million pounds out of my own pocket. I don't know what the exchange
rate is at present. Is that serious enough for you or should I have my
name on a list?
>Why should you be uneasy?
I'm not in the least uneasy Marianne. A nice try but you're not dealing
with a beginner here.
You overestimate your abilities, yet again.
>This is about the third
>time I have given you this information.
Yes, even though I'm supposedly in your kill-file. You can post your
lists as many times as you like. They do not constitute evidence
supportive of the accusations you have been and still are making.
>Why don't you accept it and
>shut the hell up!
Because it doesn't support your scurrilous allegations.
>:Email addresses of Egyptologists (Nigel Strudwick's
>Egypt Pages from
>Cambridge University) 4 December 1996
>
>This file contains ethereal addresses of Egyptologists (graduate
>students and professionals) known to us, in a format that can be
>sorted by last name. We do not know all the people personally, and some
>may not really be Egyptologists. (many names snipped)
Read the above disclaimer which you make a point of noting ad nauseam.
Consider a logical inversion of what you have been saying. No, let me
help you with it.
Why should anyone, if they wanted to lay claim to a higher degree of
qualification than that to which they are entitled, list themselves
under a disclaimer which intrinsically invalidates such a claim?
Comprends? (pardon the familiarity)
>Allen, James P.; Metropolitan Museum, New York
No mention of PhD.
>Altenmueller, Hartwig; Hamburg University
No mention of PhD.
>Arrache, Gabriela; Sociedad Mexicana de Egiptologia
No mention of PhD.
>Assmann, Jan; University of Heidelberg
No mention of PhD.
>Aubourg, Eric; Paris
No mention of PhD.
>Bagnall, Roger S.; Columbia University
No mention of PhD.
>Bagh, Tine; Carsten Niebuhr Inst., Copenhagen
No mention of PhD.
>Baines, John; University of Oxford
No mention of PhD.
>Baligh, Randa; Yale University
No mention of PhD.
>Bard, Kathryn; Boston University
No mention of PhD.
>Barker, M. A. R.; University of Minnesota
No mention of PhD.
>Bell, Lanny; University of Chicago
No mention of PhD.
>Bergman, Diane; The Brooklyn Museum
No mention of PhD.
>Bergman, Dag; New York
No mention of PhD.
>Bohleke, Briant; Yale University
No mention of PhD.
>Bolshakov, Andrey O.; Hermitage Mus. St.Petersburg
No mention of PhD.
>Bovot, Jean-Luc; Louvre, Paris
No mention of PhD.
>Brand, Peter; Toronto University
No mention of PhD.
>Brancaglion, Antonio Jr.; Universidade de Sao Paulo
No mention of PhD.
>British Museum, London
>eg...@british-museum.ac.uk
> Departmental address for Egyprian Antiquities
> Egyptologists include Carol Andrews, Morris Bierbrier, Vivian
>Davies,
> Richard Parkinson, Stephen Quirke, Jeffrey Spencer, John Taylor,
> Derek Welsby
No mention of PhD's.
>Brooklyn Museum
Institutions don't have PhD's.
>Dodson, Aidan; London
No mention of PhD.
>Dorman, Peter; University of Chicago
No mention of PhD.
>Griffith Institute, University of Oxford
Institutions don't have PhD's.
>Griffis (Greenberg), Katherine; Univ. Alabama
Strangely enough, no mention of PhD. How very odd.
>Guksch, Heike; Heidelberg University
No mention of PhD.
>There she is, right up there with some of the foremost Egyptologist in
>the world, supposedly at the University of Alabama (except her e-mail
>address, as you know, has nothing to do with any university).
So in order for your contention to be valid, must one assume the
converse to be valid? If one is not on the list, should we infer that
one is NOT an Egyptologist?
Make those calls Marianne, to Nigel Strudwick, to the Dean at UAB, and
get your facts straight in future. Your depravity, seemingly, knows no
bounds and you are being seen to be more desperate by the day. It is
not a pretty sight.
Hands up all those who will take this woman seriously in future!
Just a couple of loose ends and I've done with you.
Love
Marc
Stella Nemeth
I missed the beginning of this flamewar. I've been off on
news.newusers.questions teaching newbies how to play nice. Maybe I
ought to have stayed here and done the teaching stint here instead.
I've read enough of this flamewar to have some idea of what is going
on and I'm going to make a statement about it.
Saida <sa...@PioneerPlanet.infi.net> wrote:
>Maresh wrote:
>>
>> First, my apologies to everyone for the duplication.
>>
>> I wanted to be sure that Saida reads this challenge to supply evidence
>> to support her thus far wholly unsubstantiated and libellous allegations
>> against Katherine. By posting this, circumventing her kill-file, her
>> failure to do so will be seen for what it is, evidence of her own
>> treachery and/or malice.
>Whatever you change your name to, you are still a shmuck. Why do you
>ask for the same evidence every day, only to come back with--"well, the
>dictionary says an Egyptologist is anyone who studies Egyptology".
>Right! People knock themselves out for years trying to earn their...
Saida, I don't think you are a racist. I think you are someone who
has been convinced that the Pharaohs of the 18th and 19th Dynasty were
from some outsider family, or included some members who were from such
families. You believe this because you've done some personal
research, but your idea isn't unique. I've seen it in a book or two
as an explanation for the sudden appearance of horses and chariots as
the main war technology of the time.
But there is no need to break out into obscenities every time you
disagree with someone. This isn't the first time and I, personally,
wish you would get the tendency under control.
Now lets talk about your "proof" that Katherine is claiming a Phd.
>This file contains ethereal addresses of Egyptologists (graduate
>students and professionals) known to us, in a format that can be
>sorted by last name. We do not know all the people personally, and some
>may not really be Egyptologists. (many names snipped)
Kindly notice that the paragraph above doesn't claim that everyone on
the list has a Phd or is working on one. Obviously you can't use this
as PROOF that someone is claiming to have a Phd when the list doesn't
make any such claims.
>Griffis (Greenberg), Katherine; Univ. Alabama gri...@usa.pipeline.com
Katherine is listed as being affiliated with the University of
Alabama. To the best of my knowledge she is an instructor there
teaching a variety of subjects INCLUDING ancient history.
>There she is, right up there with some of the foremost Egyptologist in
>the world, supposedly at the University of Alabama (except her e-mail
>address, as you know, has nothing to do with any university). Then,
>here she comes again--on the Centre for Computer Aided Egyptological
>Research list of Egyptologist:
As for this paragraph let me take it up in pieces. Katherine is on
the list. The list doesn't claim to be a list of all the
Egyptologists in the world and makes a disclaimer about whether all
the names belong on the list. It gives no description of what you
have to have accomplished to be on the list except that it includes
grad students and "professionals". The last time I looked someone who
teaches ancient history qualifies as a professional. There is no
requirement that someone have a PhD to teach on the college level, and
in fact, I've known quite a few such teachers who don't have the
degree.
There is no requirement that someone who is affiliated with a
University use their Internet access for their personal account. Over
the years I've come across many people who had access to a university
account who wanted no part of the archaic rules, regulations and
software they had to use to use such an account, and who went out and
got their own.
Katherine owns a business and it is quite likely that her e-mail
address reflects the fact that the business does the kind of business
where e-mail access is essential.
Stella Nemeth
s.ne...@ix.netcom.com
Saida
Stella Nemeth wrote:
>
> I missed the beginning of this flamewar. I've been off on
> news.newusers.questions teaching newbies how to play nice. Maybe I
> ought to have stayed here and done the teaching stint here instead.
> I've read enough of this flamewar to have some idea of what is going
> on and I'm going to make a statement about it.
No, I think you should have been here at the beginning. Then maybe you
would know what you are talking about.
>
> Saida <sa...@PioneerPlanet.infi.net> wrote:
>
> >Maresh wrote:
> >>
> >> First, my apologies to everyone for the duplication.
> >>
> >> I wanted to be sure that Saida reads this challenge to supply evidence > >> to support her thus far wholly unsubstantiated and
libellous allegations > >> against Katherine. By posting this,
circumventing her kill-file, her
> >> failure to do so will be seen for what it is, evidence of her own
> >> treachery and/or malice.
>
> >Whatever you change your name to, you are still a shmuck. Why do you
> >ask for the same evidence every day, only to come back with--"well, the
> >dictionary says an Egyptologist is anyone who studies Egyptology".
> >Right! People knock themselves out for years trying to earn their...
>
> Saida, I don't think you are a racist. I think you are someone who
> has been convinced that the Pharaohs of the 18th and 19th Dynasty were
> from some outsider family, or included some members who were from such
> families. You believe this because you've done some personal
> research, but your idea isn't unique. I've seen it in a book or two
> as an explanation for the sudden appearance of horses and chariots as
> the main war technology of the time.
You don't have any notion of my "theories". I have never discussed them
with you.
>
> But there is no need to break out into obscenities every time you
> disagree with someone. This isn't the first time and I, personally,
> wish you would get the tendency under control.
Have I ever discussed anything with you? Have I ever called you one
name? What are the obscenities I have used "every time"? It seems to
me that, for a long time, I was in some sort of linguistic discussion
here. Few persons agreed with me. Whom, in that group, was ever a
recipient of an obscenity from me except probably Alan Dunsmuir? In
fact, I think I'll call that troll another name today for good measure!
>
> Now lets talk about your "proof" that Katherine is claiming a Phd.
>
> >This file contains ethereal addresses of Egyptologists (graduate
> >students and professionals) known to us, in a format that can be
> >sorted by last name. We do not know all the people personally, and some > >may not really be Egyptologists. (many names snipped)
>
> Kindly notice that the paragraph above doesn't claim that everyone on
> the list has a Phd or is working on one. Obviously you can't use this
> as PROOF that someone is claiming to have a Phd when the list doesn't
> make any such claims.
Stella, you are aping Marc Line. I never said Katherine claimed a PhD.
I said that Griffis WITHOUT A PHD was putting herself on a list of
people, clearly headed "Egyptologists". Can you read that word? It
doesn't say "this is a list of people, amateurs and pros who study about
ancient Egypt." It clearly states "Egyptologists". Somewhere, on the
web, there is perhaps a list of "neurologists". Since you people here
are getting on my nerves, I think that entitles me to go straight to the
web site and leave a message to have them put my name on the list of
"neurologists". What you are saying, Stella, is that you don't believe
Egyptology is a science. You are implying that this field is just one
big happy family where everybody is on an equal footing. Therefore,
anybody who claims any sort of expertise at all about ancient Egypt is
as qualified as the person with the degree. I wish I'd known all this
long ago. I would have applied for a job at a university
somewhere--after all, I have been studying about ancient Egypt for over
30 years! Yes, if I had known nobody would mind if I called myself an
Egyptologist, I would have contemplated putting myself on those same
lists Griffis did. Except one thing would have prevented me: Rspect
for the REAL Egyptologists and the sure knowledge that I don't even know
a fraction of what they do!
>
> >Griffis (Greenberg), Katherine; Univ. Alabama gri...@usa.pipeline.com
>
> Katherine is listed as being affiliated with the University of
> Alabama. To the best of my knowledge she is an instructor there
> teaching a variety of subjects INCLUDING ancient history.
So what? My ancient history teacher was no Egyptologist and neither is
Katherine Griffis.
>
> >There she is, right up there with some of the foremost Egyptologist in > >the world, supposedly at the University of Alabama (except her
e-mail > >address, as you know, has nothing to do with any university).
Then, > >here she comes again--on the Centre for Computer Aided
Egyptological > >Research list of Egyptologist:
(snip of irrelevent stuff
Saida
Alan M. Dunsmuir wrote:
> Saida appears periodically to have difficulty getting access to adequate > quantities of her prescribed medication.
> --
> Alan M. Dunsmuir
Shut your hole, you boring, witless Levitating Pict!
>
> Were diu werlt alle min von deme mere unze an den Rijn
> des wolt ih mih darben,
> daz diu chunigen von Engellant lege an minen armen!
I'll translate this for you people just dying to know what this means:
I says: "I am a pretentious, sniveling, carping, humorless little
cardboard man who never loses an opportunity to stick it to somebody,
especially when I am not the only one doing it. I need to say this in a
language nobody can read because it is important to me to write
SOMETHING that nobody will automatically disagree with."
>
Stella Nemeth
Saida <sa...@PioneerPlanet.infi.net> wrote:
>Stella Nemeth wrote:
>>
>> I missed the beginning of this flamewar. I've been off on
>> news.newusers.questions teaching newbies how to play nice. Maybe I
>> ought to have stayed here and done the teaching stint here instead.
>> I've read enough of this flamewar to have some idea of what is going
>> on and I'm going to make a statement about it.
>No, I think you should have been here at the beginning. Then maybe you
>would know what you are talking about.
I've been downloading the group. All of the messages are sitting on
my hard drive. I've seen all of the flamewar. I know what I'm
talking about.
>>
>> Saida <sa...@PioneerPlanet.infi.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Maresh wrote:
>> >>
>> >> First, my apologies to everyone for the duplication.
>> >>
>> >> I wanted to be sure that Saida reads this challenge to supply evidence > >> to support her thus far wholly unsubstantiated and
>libellous allegations > >> against Katherine. By posting this,
>circumventing her kill-file, her
>> >> failure to do so will be seen for what it is, evidence of her own
>> >> treachery and/or malice.
By the way, since I seem to be doing a teaching stint here, could you
please do something about how your news reader handles quotes. It is
almost impossible to follow what you have to say because the messages
are a mess.
>> >Whatever you change your name to, you are still a shmuck. Why do you
>> >ask for the same evidence every day, only to come back with--"well, the
>> >dictionary says an Egyptologist is anyone who studies Egyptology".
>> >Right! People knock themselves out for years trying to earn their...
>>
>> Saida, I don't think you are a racist. I think you are someone who
>> has been convinced that the Pharaohs of the 18th and 19th Dynasty were
>> from some outsider family, or included some members who were from such
>> families. You believe this because you've done some personal
>> research, but your idea isn't unique. I've seen it in a book or two
>> as an explanation for the sudden appearance of horses and chariots as
>> the main war technology of the time.
>You don't have any notion of my "theories". I have never discussed them
>with you.
Actually, you did discuss it with me on a couple of occasions in
e-mail. No, I don't have the messages and I have no intention of
quoting you from them. You've said more than enough on the newsgroup.
No private discussion of your theories were necessary. You haven't
exactly been hiding the fact that you think some 18th and 19th Dynasty
royal family members were light skinned persons with light hair. For
all I know, you might be right.
>> But there is no need to break out into obscenities every time you
>> disagree with someone. This isn't the first time and I, personally,
>> wish you would get the tendency under control.
>Have I ever discussed anything with you?
We've had an e-mail discussion or two. I remember them. How come you
don't?
>....Have I ever called you one name?
You have never called me a name. I fear I ought to put the word "yet"
at the end of that sentence.
>What are the obscenities I have used "every time"?
The word "shmuck" is an obscenity. It is quoted above. It isn't the
first time.
>...It seems to
>me that, for a long time, I was in some sort of linguistic discussion
>here. Few persons agreed with me. Whom, in that group, was ever a
>recipient of an obscenity from me except probably Alan Dunsmuir? In
>fact, I think I'll call that troll another name today for good measure!
Saida, even I don't go around calling Alan Dunsmuir nasty names, and
I've got a lot more reason to do so than you do.
>> Now lets talk about your "proof" that Katherine is claiming a Phd.
>>
>> >This file contains ethereal addresses of Egyptologists (graduate
>> >students and professionals) known to us, in a format that can be
>> >sorted by last name. We do not know all the people personally, and some > >may not really be Egyptologists. (many names snipped)
>>
>> Kindly notice that the paragraph above doesn't claim that everyone on
>> the list has a Phd or is working on one. Obviously you can't use this
>> as PROOF that someone is claiming to have a Phd when the list doesn't
>> make any such claims.
>Stella, you are aping Marc Line.
I wrote my message before I read any of Marc's. There is no copying
going on here. Just two people who looked at your "proof" and
recognized that it didn't say what you thought it said.
>...I never said Katherine claimed a PhD.
Good, we are finally making progress.
>I said that Griffis WITHOUT A PHD was putting herself on a list of
>people, clearly headed "Egyptologists".
The list clearly states that there are people on the list who DO NOT
have PhDs. It doesn't state anywhere that the people on the list have
PhDs. The list is full of people without PhDs, including Katherine.
>...Can you read that word? It
>doesn't say "this is a list of people, amateurs and pros who study about
>ancient Egypt." It clearly states "Egyptologists".
It says "students and professionals." A person who teaches ancient
history on the college level is a professional.
>... Somewhere, on the
>web, there is perhaps a list of "neurologists". Since you people here
>are getting on my nerves, I think that entitles me to go straight to the
>web site and leave a message to have them put my name on the list of
>"neurologists".
The definition of "neurologists" include Board Certification. There
is no Board Certification for Egyptology.
>...What you are saying, Stella, is that you don't believe
>Egyptology is a science.
I shouldn't answer this, but I will. I'm already on record anyway.
I DO NOT believe any part or sub-part of any historical discipline has
anything at all to do with science. They are all humanities. And
there is nothing wrong, or less important about the humanities. A
historian and/or archaeologist can use scientific tools, measurements,
etc., but that doesn't make history or archaeology a science.
>You are implying that this field is just one
>big happy family where everybody is on an equal footing. Therefore,
>anybody who claims any sort of expertise at all about ancient Egypt is
>as qualified as the person with the degree.
Like it or not, the practice of Egyptology, unlike medicine, is NOT
regulated by governments. Only the right to dig in Egypt is so
regulated. Everything else is pretty much up for grabs. If you
wanted to write a book about Egypt, and could convince a publisher to
publish it, and you wrote it correctly complete with proper cites and
quotes and bibliographies, your book might end up being used as a
textbook in a school or college. No PhD or certification necessary.
Most of the books about history currently published in the US and
probably the UK as well, are written by people who DO NOT have PhDs.
They are all professionals in the field of history.
>...I wish I'd known all this
>long ago. I would have applied for a job at a university
>somewhere--after all, I have been studying about ancient Egypt for over
>30 years!
30 years. Would you like to consider 40 years? And if I had the
right background for teaching, I might have considered doing just
that. If I could afford to take the cut in pay.
>..Yes, if I had known nobody would mind if I called myself an
>Egyptologist,
Has anyone stopped you?
>... I would have contemplated putting myself on those same
>lists Griffis did. Except one thing would have prevented me: Rspect
>for the REAL Egyptologists and the sure knowledge that I don't even know
>a fraction of what they do!
There is one small difference between you and Katherine. She is
affiliated with a university and teaches ancient history classes
there. You, by your own admission, are not, and do not. She is a
professional in the field. You, by your own admission, are an
enthusiast.
>> >Griffis (Greenberg), Katherine; Univ. Alabama gri...@usa.pipeline.com
>>
>> Katherine is listed as being affiliated with the University of
>> Alabama. To the best of my knowledge she is an instructor there
>> teaching a variety of subjects INCLUDING ancient history.
>So what? My ancient history teacher was no Egyptologist and neither is
>Katherine Griffis.
And just what and when was this ancient history teacher? And when did
you ask them if they considered themselves (if there was more than
one) to be an Egyptologist or not. Were they teaching on the college
level? The person who taught me Freshman World History when I was 17
was a Mideavalist, and a rather well known one at that. She also
taught world history to freshmen. The person who taught me world
history in high school might or might not have been a specialist in
one particular time and place. I don't know. I never thought to ask.
>>
>> >There she is, right up there with some of the foremost Egyptologist in > >the world, supposedly at the University of Alabama (except her
>e-mail > >address, as you know, has nothing to do with any university).
> Then, > >here she comes again--on the Centre for Computer Aided
>Egyptological > >Research list of Egyptologist:
>(snip of irrelevent stuff
Did you have anything more to say? Really Saida, please get control
over your news reader. It is almost impossible to follow the
conversation in all of this mess.
Stella Nemeth
s.ne...@ix.netcom.com
A...@cec.conteduc.uab.edu
In article <32BC01...@PioneerPlanet.infi.net>,
Saida <sa...@PioneerPlanet.infi.net> wrote:
<snipped>
This communication is to verify that Katherine Griffis has taught non-
credit courses in ancient Egyptian history and culture since 1980 at UAB
Special Studies. On one occasion, this course was taught in conjunction
with the Birmingham Festival of Arts/Birmingham Museum of Art which
was honoring Egypt. I served as Dean of UAB Special Studies at the time
she taught this, and other subjects, for the non-credit community programs
at UAB.
Sincerely,
Sara Ruiz de Molina
Dean
UAB Special Studies
University of Alabama at Birmingham
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Katherine Griffis
A...@CEC.conteduc.uab.edu wrote:
>In article <32BC01...@PioneerPlanet.infi.net>,
> Saida <sa...@PioneerPlanet.infi.net> wrote:
><snipped>
>This communication is to verify that Katherine Griffis has taught non-
>credit courses in ancient Egyptian history and culture since 1980 at UAB
>Special Studies. On one occasion, this course was taught in conjunction
>with the Birmingham Festival of Arts/Birmingham Museum of Art which
>was honoring Egypt. I served as Dean of UAB Special Studies at the time
>she taught this, and other subjects, for the non-credit community programs
>at UAB.
>Sincerely,
>Sara Ruiz de Molina
>Dean
>UAB Special Studies
>University of Alabama at Birmingham
>-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
I hope this clears this matter up for everyone. Any questions may be
referred to me, or by calling Dr. de Molina at UAB Special Studies at
205/934-7451, likely after the holidays.
Before I take off for holidays myself, let me tell *EVERYONE* who
spoke out on this matter, a BIG **THANK YOU**. I find it embarassing
to see such things on the NG's in general, and can see how unpleasant
it is, personally. Your support meant *so much* here.
But, for now, 'tis the Season. Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukah
(belatedly), and Happy Holidays for *all*...
Regards --
Katherine Griffis (Greenberg)
Member of the American Research Center in Egypt
University of Alabama at Birmingham
Special Studies
http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/ccer/PEOPLE2.HTML
flat...@hotmail.com
In article <59og8d$n...@camel0.mindspring.com>,
gri...@mindspring.com (Katherine Griffis) wrote:
>
> A...@CEC.conteduc.uab.edu wrote:
>
> >In article <32BC01...@PioneerPlanet.infi.net>,
> > Saida <sa...@PioneerPlanet.infi.net> wrote:
>
> ><snipped>
>
> >This communication is to verify that Katherine Griffis has taught non-
> >credit courses in ancient Egyptian history and culture since 1980 at UAB
> >Special Studies.
So what? Who cares? That still doesn't prove that she is a bonafide
Egyptologist. ANYONE can teach non-credit courses. If she was any
kind of an Egyptologist she would have a record of professional
publications, which she doesn't have.
> > On one occasion, this course was taught in conjunction
> >with the Birmingham Festival of Arts/Birmingham Museum of Art which
> >was honoring Egypt.
So? Tom Funkerfart taught a non-credit course on how to wipe your ass at
The Festival of Camel Crap. Does that make him a Proctologist? NO,
ofcourse not.
> > I served as Dean of UAB Special Studies at the time
> >she taught this, and other subjects, for the non-credit community programs
> >at UAB.
>
> >Sincerely,
>
> >Sara Ruiz de Molina
> >Dean
> >UAB Special Studies
> >University of Alabama at Birmingham
>
> >-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> > http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
>
> I hope this clears this matter up for everyone.
This just reenforces how much of a jack-ass you are
> Any questions may be
> referred to me, or by calling Dr. de Molina at UAB Special Studies at
> 205/934-7451, likely after the holidays.
>
> Before I take off for holidays myself, let me tell *EVERYONE* who
> spoke out on this matter, a BIG **THANK YOU**.
You are quite welcome.
> I find it embarassing
> to see such things on the NG's in general, and can see how unpleasant
> it is, personally. Your support meant *so much* here.
>
> But, for now, 'tis the Season. Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukah
> (belatedly), and Happy Holidays for *all*...
>
> Regards --
>
> Katherine Griffis (Greenberg)
> Member of the American Research Center in Egypt
>
> University of Alabama at Birmingham
> Special Studies
>
> http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/ccer/PEOPLE2.HTML
Douglas Weller
On Wed, 25 Dec 1996 02:31:03 -0600, flat...@hotmail.com wrote:
Uhoh, someone ;posting from Florida I wonder? Not Saida perhaps, but whoever
it is is just trying to show what an idiot they are.
Marc Line
On Wed, 25 Dec 1996, at 02:31:03, Peter Bromfield cajoled electrons into
this
>You are quite welcome.
Hello Peter
Haven't heard from you for a while. Hope everything's well with you and
yours.
Please accept my blessings for the new year. May we *all* learn from
the errors of the past and may your God go with you.
Love
Marc
X