What is the evidence for Phoenician involvement with tin from Britain?
Doug Weller
no longer think they actually mined it, but somehow they were involved.
For four centuries, a Phoenician link with British tin trade has been
accepted as more or less gospel. Of course, 400 years ago there were no
known alternative sources of tin, it *must* have come from Britain.
But as I've shown in an earlier post, we now know better.
So just what is the evidence for Phoenician involvement? How well does it
stand up to scrutiny?
Or is this the archaeological equivalent of an 'urban myth'?
Doug
Inger E Johansson
I pass the question on to a scholar who don't participate here but have good
knowledge of Pre-Roman and Roman marine trades. Is it OK? I wait till you
answered.
Inger E
"Doug Weller" <dwe...@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
news:ridrxsjeatav.1f...@40tude.net...
Jona Lendering
The discovery of tin in the west is usually linked to a Phoenician
sailor named Himilco, whose own story is lost but quoted by Avienus. The
crucial line is that he found the Oestrumnides islands, which were "rich
in the mining of tin and lead. A vigorous tribe lives here, proud
spirited, energetic and skillful. On all the ridges trade is carried
on."
There are three places on the Ocean shores where tin can be found:
Cornwall, Brittany and the Scilly islands.
It is difficult to choose between these three possibilities. Cornwall is
rich in metal, but cannot be regarded as an archipelago, which is
implied in the plural Oestrumnides; the Scilly's are a group of islands,
but there were no mines. The most likely candidate is Brittany, which is
rich in ore and surrounded by several small islands.
Moreover, Avienus states that the region beyond the Oestrumnides is the
country of the Celts. To the best of my knowledge, the word 'Celt' is
never used to describe the inhabitants of the British isles in ancient
literature, but it is often used for those that live in central France
(cf. the opening line of Caesar's *Gallic War*).
Jona
--
Jona Lendering
http://www.livius.org
Doug Weller
> Doug,
> I pass the question on to a scholar who don't participate here but have good
> knowledge of Pre-Roman and Roman marine trades. Is it OK? I wait till you
> answered.
Ok, thanks.
Doug
Inger E Johansson
"Jona Lendering" <ADSL2...@tiscali.nl> skrev i meddelandet
news:40C49BD0...@tiscali.nl...
Seen the word Celt used for people living in Jutland south of the Cimbrians.
Tried to find the ref but I am not lucky so far.
Inger E
Jona Lendering
> Seen the word Celt used for people living in Jutland south of the Cimbrians.
> Tried to find the ref but I am not lucky so far.
Cassius Dio, probably. He uses the word "Celt" to describe the Germanic
tribes.
Inger E Johansson
> Inger E Johansson wrote:
>
> > Seen the word Celt used for people living in Jutland south of the
Cimbrians.
> > Tried to find the ref but I am not lucky so far.
>
> Cassius Dio, probably. He uses the word "Celt" to describe the Germanic
> tribes.
Might be him. I don't have his work in the computer for the moment. Had it
up to October last year when I worked with it.
One other observation. Ostromundes is also a word used by some of the
Ancient historians related to a place up north over water with which the
islands we today calls the British Isle made trade with. It's also noted to
have had a lot of Oestershells instead of sandbanks. I read that in one of
the 400 BC works handed down in 275 AD. I have it somewhere so I can look it
up if you want me to.
Inger E
Inger E
Doug Weller
> I've dealt with this at http://www.livius.org/hi-hn/himilco/himilco.htm.
>
> The discovery of tin in the west is usually linked to a Phoenician
> sailor named Himilco, whose own story is lost but quoted by Avienus. The
> crucial line is that he found the Oestrumnides islands, which were "rich
> in the mining of tin and lead. A vigorous tribe lives here, proud
> spirited, energetic and skillful. On all the ridges trade is carried
> on."
>
> There are three places on the Ocean shores where tin can be found:
> Cornwall, Brittany and the Scilly islands.
You don't count Sicily? Where was the Iberian tin?
And of course, could the actual location be a secret, disguised by this
tale?
[SNIP]
Doug
Jona Lendering
>
> > There are three places on the Ocean shores where tin can be found:
> > Cornwall, Brittany and the Scilly islands.
>
> You don't count Sicily?
Avienus clearly describes the Ocean, not the Mediterranean.
>
> And of course, could the actual location be a secret, disguised by this
> tale?
I've more or less dealt with this possibility in the third part of the
article I linked to (http://www.livius.org/hi-hn/himilco/himilco.htm). I
suppose that Himilco did indeed exaggerate some of the dangers he
encountered to make sure that others would be deterred.
Eric Stevens
It is not necessary for the Phoenecians to have controlled the entire
length of the trade route and it is nonsense to suggest that the tin
trade inside Iberia would not have developed without the Phoenecians
(not that anyone is suggesting that). Certainly the Phoenecians always
controlled the route from Cadiz and on into the Meditteranean, and it
is likely that over the years they infiltrated their agents all the
way up the distribution chain to the various sources of tin.
Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
<dwe...@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk> wrote:
>On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 18:46:08 +0200, Jona Lendering wrote:
>
>> I've dealt with this at http://www.livius.org/hi-hn/himilco/himilco.htm.
>>
>> The discovery of tin in the west is usually linked to a Phoenician
>> sailor named Himilco, whose own story is lost but quoted by Avienus. The
>> crucial line is that he found the Oestrumnides islands, which were "rich
>> in the mining of tin and lead. A vigorous tribe lives here, proud
>> spirited, energetic and skillful. On all the ridges trade is carried
>> on."
>>
>> There are three places on the Ocean shores where tin can be found:
>> Cornwall, Brittany and the Scilly islands.
>
>You don't count Sicily? Where was the Iberian tin?
"Facing the Ocean", Cunliffe, p303 :-)
NW corner.
>
>And of course, could the actual location be a secret, disguised by this
>tale?
>
>[SNIP]
>
>Doug
Eric Stevens
Italo
> On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 18:40:24 +0100, Doug Weller
> <dwe...@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 18:46:08 +0200, Jona Lendering wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I've dealt with this at http://www.livius.org/hi-hn/himilco/himilco.htm.
>>>
>>>The discovery of tin in the west is usually linked to a Phoenician
>>>sailor named Himilco, whose own story is lost but quoted by Avienus. The
>>>crucial line is that he found the Oestrumnides islands, which were "rich
>>>in the mining of tin and lead. A vigorous tribe lives here, proud
>>>spirited, energetic and skillful. On all the ridges trade is carried
>>>on."
>>>
>>>There are three places on the Ocean shores where tin can be found:
>>>Cornwall, Brittany and the Scilly islands.
>>
>>You don't count Sicily? Where was the Iberian tin?
>
>
> "Facing the Ocean", Cunliffe, p303 :-)
>
> NW corner.
Diodorus 5.38 says the Kassiterides were small isles in the Ocean in
front of the Iberian coast, "beyond Lusitania" (Portugal).
Jona Lendering
>
> Diodorus 5.38 says the Kassiterides were small isles in the Ocean in
> front of the Iberian coast, "beyond Lusitania" (Portugal).
They are also mentioned by Herodotus, who entertains some doubts about
them. In c.325, Pytheas identified them with Britain, but the oldest
report (by Midakritos, quoted by Pliny 7.197) is unclear about the
whereabouts of the Kassiterides.
Doug Weller
> Doug Weller wrote:
>>
>>> There are three places on the Ocean shores where tin can be found:
>>> Cornwall, Brittany and the Scilly islands.
>>
>> You don't count Sicily?
>
> Avienus clearly describes the Ocean, not the Mediterranean.
Ok, then I don't understand why you have left out Galicia.
And why the Scilly Islands?
>>
>> And of course, could the actual location be a secret, disguised by this
>> tale?
>
> I've more or less dealt with this possibility in the third part of the
> article I linked to (http://www.livius.org/hi-hn/himilco/himilco.htm). I
> suppose that Himilco did indeed exaggerate some of the dangers he
> encountered to make sure that others would be deterred.
>
> Jona
The Phoenicians seemed unsure where they were, but in any case, tin
islands?
Doug
Doug Weller
> Doug Weller wrote:
>>
>>> There are three places on the Ocean shores where tin can be found:
>>> Cornwall, Brittany and the Scilly islands.
>>
>> You don't count Sicily?
>
> Avienus clearly describes the Ocean, not the Mediterranean.
Ok, then I don't understand why you have left out Galicia.
And why the Scilly Islands?
>>
>> And of course, could the actual location be a secret, disguised by this
>> tale?
>
> I've more or less dealt with this possibility in the third part of the
> article I linked to (http://www.livius.org/hi-hn/himilco/himilco.htm). I
> suppose that Himilco did indeed exaggerate some of the dangers he
> encountered to make sure that others would be deterred.
>
> Jona
The Phoenicians ... sorry, that was meant to be a reply to another post.
I think he may have disguised the location, or the story has been changed.
Armorica or Galicia are likely sources of tin for Andalucia.
I don't see the tale of Himilco as persuasive for a Phoenician involvement
in trading Cornish tin.
Doug
Inger E Johansson
now I remember one of the best sources for the ancient 275 BC text about the
place. Ora Mensura. Don't remember who wrote the poem but the 275 BC text is
delievered almost in full in it.
Inger E
"Jona Lendering" <ADSL2...@tiscali.nl> skrev i meddelandet
news:40C4D72A...@tiscali.nl...
Jona Lendering
> I don't see the tale of Himilco as persuasive for a Phoenician involvement
> in trading Cornish tin.
Nor do I; I guess Brittany is, of the three possibilities, the only one
that is acceptable.
Jona Lendering
>
> Jona,
> now I remember one of the best sources for the ancient 275 BC text about the
> place. Ora Mensura. Don't remember who wrote the poem but the 275 BC text is
> delievered almost in full in it.
Inger,
Is it possible that you are thinking about the Ora Maritima? That's the
text I refer to in my article.
Inger E Johansson
> Doug Weller wrote:
>
> > I don't see the tale of Himilco as persuasive for a Phoenician
involvement
> > in trading Cornish tin.
>
> Nor do I; I guess Brittany is, of the three possibilities, the only one
> that is acceptable.
No it isn't acceptable because it's directly said that it was further to the
North over Ocean on the traderoute which included Brittany. The forth
possibility hasn't been taken into consideration.
Inger E
Inger E Johansson
Inger E
Jona Lendering
>
> No. It's a poem with good caracteristica of the place.
This is interesting, but it can IMHO not refer to Himilco. Let's see
what the other members of this newsgroup know.
Doug Weller
> "Jona Lendering" <ADSL2...@tiscali.nl> skrev i meddelandet
> news:40C51F6B...@tiscali.nl...
>> Doug Weller wrote:
>>
>>> I don't see the tale of Himilco as persuasive for a Phoenician
> involvement
>>> in trading Cornish tin.
>>
>> Nor do I; I guess Brittany is, of the three possibilities, the only one
>> that is acceptable.
>
> No it isn't acceptable because it's directly said that it was further to the
> North over Ocean on the traderoute which included Brittany. The forth
> possibility hasn't been taken into consideration.
I still think it likely the location would have been a trade secret. Even
if we can believe the accuracy of the story. Which we can't.
Doug
David B
>
>Inger E Johansson wrote: [about "Ora Mensura"]
>>
>> No. It's a poem with good caracteristica of the place.
>
>This is interesting, but it can IMHO not refer to Himilco. Let's see
>what the other members of this newsgroup know.
Remarkably, but not surprisingly, the only person in the history of the
Internet to refer to a poem called "Ora Mensura" is Inger.
Her most helpful reference dates from 4 Jan 1999:
"The source that either Paul or the author Paul have read thinks about must
be Ora Mensura or as the title in original is "De mensura orbis terrś"
written 825 AD by Dicuilus"
I haven't found a full online text, or even the relevant quotation, but I
think the current standard version would be:
Dicuil: "Liber de mensura orbis terrae", ed. J.J. Tierney, (= Scriptores
Latini Hiberniae, 6), Dublin 1967
(Don't go out of your way looking for it though)
David B.
Inger E Johansson
Since I seem to be one of the few having seen any document of the trade
north of Britain, it seems as if the trade was indead a trade secret.
Inger E
>
> Doug
Inger E Johansson
I had Ora Mensura up together with my Academic Essay about waterways in
1993. Then as one of my Ancient sources delivered down in a 250 AD. Of
course I know about it even if you don't. It's more likely that I who have
been studying the subject knows about Prime sources than you who only
attacks sources and facts presented by me!
Stop your abusive style and present arguments, contra-arguments and if you
can't do that - Order in class is called for from your place.
Inger E
Martyn Harrison
<ADSL2...@tiscali.nl> said:
>Inger E Johansson wrote:
>>
>> No. It's a poem with good caracteristica of the place.
>
>This is interesting, but it can IMHO not refer to Himilco. Let's see
>what the other members of this newsgroup know.
I suspect many of us think you are reasoning with a crackpot.
Good luck finding an actual "Ora Mensura" ;) ;) ;)
Eric Stevens
wrote:
>Jona Lendering wrote in message <40C5308D...@tiscali.nl>...
>>
>>Inger E Johansson wrote: [about "Ora Mensura"]
>>>
>>> No. It's a poem with good caracteristica of the place.
>>
>>This is interesting, but it can IMHO not refer to Himilco. Let's see
>>what the other members of this newsgroup know.
>
>Remarkably, but not surprisingly, the only person in the history of the
>Internet to refer to a poem called "Ora Mensura" is Inger.
Nevertheless, both a Google and Yahho search come up with:
"Science Forum - The Internet's Best Science Forum!
... This is also confirmed by Ora Mensura from late 7th century;
two Bullas of Pope Gregorius IV and other sources from 1st
century AD to 800....
www.groupsrv.com/science/viewtopic.php?p=260935 - 40k -
Cached - Similar pages
... which site crashes Netscape 7.02, whether using the URL or the
cached version.
>Her most helpful reference dates from 4 Jan 1999:
>"The source that either Paul or the author Paul have read thinks about must
>be Ora Mensura or as the title in original is "De mensura orbis terrœ"
>written 825 AD by Dicuilus"
>
>I haven't found a full online text, or even the relevant quotation, but I
>think the current standard version would be:
>Dicuil: "Liber de mensura orbis terrae", ed. J.J. Tierney, (= Scriptores
>Latini Hiberniae, 6), Dublin 1967
>
>
>(Don't go out of your way looking for it though)
>David B.
>
>
Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
Don't need good luck. There does seem to be such a thing.
Eric Stevens
Inger E Johansson
"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> skrev i meddelandet
news:io3bc0tadf2p19ktk...@4ax.com...
Indeed it exist.
Inger E
>
>
>
> Eric Stevens
>
Inger E Johansson
Ora Mensura contains information delievered to us from a 275 BC document via
a 250 AD poem dealing with ancient trade. It also contains information about
the Irish/Celtic monks traveling to Iceland and Greenland.
It's confirmed in a Bulla of Gregorius IV.
Inger E
"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> skrev i meddelandet
news:rh3bc012q20k3q661...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 08:27:22 +0100, "David B" <tronos...@tesco.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Jona Lendering wrote in message <40C5308D...@tiscali.nl>...
> >>
> >>Inger E Johansson wrote: [about "Ora Mensura"]
> >>>
> >>> No. It's a poem with good caracteristica of the place.
> >>
> >>This is interesting, but it can IMHO not refer to Himilco. Let's see
> >>what the other members of this newsgroup know.
> >
> >Remarkably, but not surprisingly, the only person in the history of the
> >Internet to refer to a poem called "Ora Mensura" is Inger.
>
> Nevertheless, both a Google and Yahho search come up with:
>
> "Science Forum - The Internet's Best Science Forum!
> ... This is also confirmed by Ora Mensura from late 7th century;
> two Bullas of Pope Gregorius IV and other sources from 1st
> century AD to 800....
> www.groupsrv.com/science/viewtopic.php?p=260935 - 40k -
> Cached - Similar pages
>
> ... which site crashes Netscape 7.02, whether using the URL or the
> cached version.
>
> >Her most helpful reference dates from 4 Jan 1999:
> >"The source that either Paul or the author Paul have read thinks about
must
> >be Ora Mensura or as the title in original is "De mensura orbis terro"
Martyn Harrison
own post and claimed that the site, which he couldn't even load, showed there
must be such a thing as your "ora mensura".
Such Scholarship.
Apparently on date Tue, 08 Jun 2004 10:10:50 GMT, "Inger E Johansson"
JMB
news:rh3bc012q20k3q661...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 08:27:22 +0100, "David B" <tronos...@tesco.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Jona Lendering wrote in message <40C5308D...@tiscali.nl>...
> >>
> >>Inger E Johansson wrote: [about "Ora Mensura"]
> >>>
> >>> No. It's a poem with good caracteristica of the place.
> >>
> >>This is interesting, but it can IMHO not refer to Himilco. Let's see
> >>what the other members of this newsgroup know.
> >
> >Remarkably, but not surprisingly, the only person in the history of the
> >Internet to refer to a poem called "Ora Mensura" is Inger.
>
> Nevertheless, both a Google and Yahho search come up with:
>
> "Science Forum - The Internet's Best Science Forum!
> ... This is also confirmed by Ora Mensura from late 7th century;
> two Bullas of Pope Gregorius IV and other sources from 1st
> century AD to 800....
> www.groupsrv.com/science/viewtopic.php?p=260935 - 40k -
> Cached - Similar pages
>
> ... which site crashes Netscape 7.02, whether using the URL or the
> cached version.
LOL! Eric, you really need to stop taking things at face value. That is
just a forum, and the person who posted the message was "Inger E Johansson"
a Guest, and she posted it on Thu May 13, 2004 12:51 am. The fact that
**Inger** made the same claim somewhere else doesn't equate to corroboration
of her claim.
>
> >Her most helpful reference dates from 4 Jan 1999:
> >"The source that either Paul or the author Paul have read thinks about
must
> >be Ora Mensura or as the title in original is "De mensura orbis terro"
> >written 825 AD by Dicuilus"
> >
> >I haven't found a full online text, or even the relevant quotation, but I
> >think the current standard version would be:
> >Dicuil: "Liber de mensura orbis terrae", ed. J.J. Tierney, (= Scriptores
> >Latini Hiberniae, 6), Dublin 1967
> >
> >
> >(Don't go out of your way looking for it though)
> >David B.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Eric Stevens
>
--
John Byrne
www.iol.ie/~archaeology
To email me use the feedback form on the website.
The address attached to this post is just a spam trap.
JMB
But can you find a reference that was not posted by Inger?
JMB
news:2ilkhcF...@uni-berlin.de...
> "Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message
--SNIP--
> >
> > Nevertheless, both a Google and Yahho search come up with:
> >
> > "Science Forum - The Internet's Best Science Forum!
> > ... This is also confirmed by Ora Mensura from late 7th century;
> > two Bullas of Pope Gregorius IV and other sources from 1st
> > century AD to 800....
> > www.groupsrv.com/science/viewtopic.php?p=260935 - 40k -
> > Cached - Similar pages
> >
> > ... which site crashes Netscape 7.02, whether using the URL or the
> > cached version.
>
> LOL! Eric, you really need to stop taking things at face value. That is
> just a forum, and the person who posted the message was "Inger E
Johansson"
> a Guest, and she posted it on Thu May 13, 2004 12:51 am. The fact that
> **Inger** made the same claim somewhere else doesn't equate to
corroboration
> of her claim.
>
> >
Actually, having looked at that site, it is not even a case of Inger posting
it to a different place, that is a post that Inger made to here,
sci.archaeology. Those forums just present a web based interface to Usenet.
--SNIP--
Jona Lendering
> I think the current standard version would be:
> Dicuil: "Liber de mensura orbis terrae", ed. J.J. Tierney, (= Scriptores
> Latini Hiberniae, 6), Dublin 1967
The most recent edition, including a translation, is *Dicuill on the
islands of the North*, edited by David R. Howlett, [Cork : Turnhout] :
Medieval Academy of Ireland ; Brepols, 1999.
Yet, I still fail to understand how this can be Inger's 275 BC text that
is included in a 250 AD text, as Dicuill was a younger contemporary of
Charlemagne.
Doug Weller
Tin trade by Phoenicians from Cornwall to north of Britain?
Doug
David B
Well, to be blunt- when Inger replied to your suggestion "Is it possible
that you are thinking about the Ora Maritima?" with the statement "No. It's
a poem with good caracteristica of the place." she was not actually telling
the truth.
Coming this evening, a new section of the Primesauce website, which will
explain in gruesome detail (and I'll include that reference, thanks)...
David B.
Inger E Johansson
that's one of the bad things with translations and late editions that many
parts aren't translated correctly or omitted due to the fact that most
'Modern' edits of Ancient works normally is made from one copy instead of
edited comparing the B- and C-versions divergenses.
Inger E
Inger E Johansson
documented trade route continuing north of the British Isles!
Inger E
Tom McDonald
> On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 08:27:22 +0100, "David B" <tronos...@tesco.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Jona Lendering wrote in message <40C5308D...@tiscali.nl>...
>>
>>>Inger E Johansson wrote: [about "Ora Mensura"]
>>>
>>>>No. It's a poem with good caracteristica of the place.
>>>
>>>This is interesting, but it can IMHO not refer to Himilco. Let's see
>>>what the other members of this newsgroup know.
>>
>>Remarkably, but not surprisingly, the only person in the history of the
>>Internet to refer to a poem called "Ora Mensura" is Inger.
>
>
> Nevertheless, both a Google and Yahho search come up with:
>
> "Science Forum - The Internet's Best Science Forum!
> ... This is also confirmed by Ora Mensura from late 7th century;
> two Bullas of Pope Gregorius IV and other sources from 1st
> century AD to 800....
> www.groupsrv.com/science/viewtopic.php?p=260935 - 40k -
> Cached - Similar pages
>
> ... which site crashes Netscape 7.02, whether using the URL or the
> cached version.
Eric,
That's a service that provides a web interface for newsgroups.
In this case, sci.archaeology. The author of the article was
Inger.
Tom McDonald
David B.
>>islands of the North*, edited by David R. Howlett, [Cork : Turnhout] :
>>Medieval Academy of Ireland ; Brepols, 1999.
>>
>>Yet, I still fail to understand how this can be Inger's 275 BC text that
>>is included in a 250 AD text, as Dicuill was a younger contemporary of
>>Charlemagne.
>
>explain in gruesome detail (and I'll include that reference, thanks)...
It's online now in a nasty dementor-grey colour at
http://www.trochos.plus.com/primesauce/sources.htm#80
(though I decided to leave out most of the examples of Inger's confusion
over the words "mensura" [or "mesura"] and "maritima"- but there are plenty
in Google Groups)
What's most instructive, though, is to compare that with
http://www.trochos.plus.com/primesauce/sources.htm#81
and spot the common features between the "Phoenicians and Irish monks"
problem and the "coconut bowl and Ivar Bardsson" problem.
Or you could go further and you'll find that the same common features occur
in the "1121 Vinland expedition and Nicholas the monk" problem:
http://www.trochos.plus.com/primesauce/sources.htm#07
If I were anybody who has to cope with Inger in the real world, I'd be very
worried about those common features (unless they are only manifest when she
sits at a keyboard).
David B.
George
> Doug,
> documented trade route continuing north of the British Isles!
> Inger E
Then the documentation could easily be presented here.
Unless, of couse it is nonexistant.
There was sufficient tin in Europe for their Bronze Age industries...
Eric Stevens
The fact that it was Inger is not apparent from the text I quoted.
That's all I could get.
>
>>
>> >Her most helpful reference dates from 4 Jan 1999:
>> >"The source that either Paul or the author Paul have read thinks about
>must
>> >be Ora Mensura or as the title in original is "De mensura orbis terro"
>> >written 825 AD by Dicuilus"
>> >
>> >I haven't found a full online text, or even the relevant quotation, but I
>> >think the current standard version would be:
>> >Dicuil: "Liber de mensura orbis terrae", ed. J.J. Tierney, (= Scriptores
>> >Latini Hiberniae, 6), Dublin 1967
>> >
>> >
>> >(Don't go out of your way looking for it though)
>> >David B.
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Eric Stevens
>>
Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
Yep. Slightly red face. I would have known that if I could have read
the damned thing.
Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
>"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message
>news:io3bc0tadf2p19ktk...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 10:15:30 +0100, Martyn Harrison
>> <nos...@spammers.of.the.world.unite> wrote:
>>
>> >Apparently on date Tue, 08 Jun 2004 05:20:45 +0200, Jona Lendering
>> ><ADSL2...@tiscali.nl> said:
>> >
>> >>Inger E Johansson wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> No. It's a poem with good caracteristica of the place.
>> >>
>> >>This is interesting, but it can IMHO not refer to Himilco. Let's see
>> >>what the other members of this newsgroup know.
>> >
>> >I suspect many of us think you are reasoning with a crackpot.
>> >
>> >Good luck finding an actual "Ora Mensura" ;) ;) ;)
>> >
>> Don't need good luck. There does seem to be such a thing.
>
>But can you find a reference that was not posted by Inger?
>
Not yet. :-)
Eric Stevens
Inger E Johansson
It's possible to order from Library at least works about it. It was in 1993
and thus it must be possible now.
Inger E
Inger E Johansson
the first time I wrote about it I also sent a quote and ref to where the
source could be read. I took a part of my thesis out to do so.
Inger E
David B
>>
>>Jona Lendering wrote in message <40C5A95A...@tiscali.nl>...
>>>
>>>The most recent edition, including a translation, is *Dicuill on the
>>>islands of the North*, edited by David R. Howlett, [Cork : Turnhout] :
>>>Medieval Academy of Ireland ; Brepols, 1999.
>>>
>>>Yet, I still fail to understand how this can be Inger's 275 BC text that
>>>is included in a 250 AD text, as Dicuill was a younger contemporary of
>>>Charlemagne.
>
> http://www.trochos.plus.com/primesauce/sources.htm#80
>
> http://www.trochos.plus.com/primesauce/sources.htm#81
>and spot the common features between the "Phoenicians and Irish monks"
>problem and the "coconut bowl and Ivar Bardsson" problem.
>Or you could go further and you'll find that the same common features
occur
>in the "1121 Vinland expedition and Nicholas the monk" problem:
> http://www.trochos.plus.com/primesauce/sources.htm#07
It looks as if I'm going to have to be explicit about this. The three
examples above all share a linking of two known but unconnected historical
facts via an unknown source. In the case of "Ora Mensura" the source is
named but untraceable, and the facts it links (Phoenician trade and Irish
voyages to Iceland in the early Middle Ages) could not possibly be linked
by the said source (because it was allegedly written half a millennium
before the Irish voyages occurred).
Assuming that Inger is not indulging in a 7-year hoax, it must be assumed
that she genuinely believes in the links between all these pairs of facts
(and many more) due to a memory associative disorder. Having made the
links, via some simple key concept ("voyages to the North", or "tithes" or
"geography of Vinland"; not to mention "primary = prime") her brain is then
filling in a background of sources which she "remembers" very clearly, but
can never actually find. When challenged on these sources, her brain will
do anything to prevent her from accepting the truth, hence the variety of
deceits and delaying tactics, the privately-emailed irrelevancies etc.
If I'm right in this conclusion, I would ask anybody who knows anybody who
has connnections to Inger in the real world- please check whether this
situation is being dealt with, because it is likely to cause problems with
other aspects of her life in the long term.
David B.
Inger E Johansson
I have presented 'my case' to Professors and Ph.D. in History - no problem
what so ever.
Contrary to you they and I live in real world.
Make no mistake about that and stop pretending you know anything at all
about me.
Inger E
"David B" <tronos...@tesco.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:t0zxc.310$gp1.303@newsfe6-win...
Inger E Johansson
I have no problem with my life and I forbid David B and other to continue
their stalking and abusing of me.
If they can't find arguments and contra-arguments on subject discussed -
they do have problem with their education because every scholar and every
student to become a scholar have to have had that type of education. Here in
Sweden we do have it on all levels.
Stop dreaming David B and return to reality!
Inger E
"Inger E Johansson" <inger_e....@notelia.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:J2zxc.1952$dx3....@newsb.telia.net...
Martyn Harrison
can't actually mention voyages by Irish monks seven hundred or more years after
it was supposed to be written?
Apparently on date Wed, 09 Jun 2004 07:32:57 GMT, "Inger E Johansson"
<inger_e....@notelia.com> said:
>David B,
>I have presented 'my case' to Professors and Ph.D. in History - no problem
>what so ever.
Inverse of this: "I haven't presented any case to professors and History PhDs
because they would have problems with it"
>Contrary to you they and I live in real world.
Inverse of this: "I live in a fantasy world."
>Make no mistake about that and stop pretending you know anything at all
>about me.
Inverse of this: "Really I do, and you're getting far too close to the truth
for comfort."
Martyn Harrison
<inger_e....@notelia.com> said:
>Complentary information:
Inverse translations:
>I have no problem with my life and I forbid David B and other to continue
>their stalking and abusing of me.
"I have real problems in my life and I can't handle the idea of people
investigating me on a psychological basis."
>Stop dreaming David B and return to reality!
"Stop revealing my fantasy world."
David B
>
>Apparently on date Wed, 09 Jun 2004 07:35:43 GMT, "Inger E Johansson"
><inger_e....@notelia.com> said:
>
>>I have no problem with my life and I forbid David B and other to continue
>>their stalking and abusing of me.
>
>"I have real problems in my life and I can't handle the idea of people
>investigating me on a psychological basis."
>
>>Stop dreaming David B and return to reality!
>
>"Stop revealing my fantasy world."
I think part of our problem is the use of terms like "fantasy" which imply
some sort of conscious act of imagination. "Delusional" would be more
appropriate if my theory is correct- i.e. Inger is not physically capable,
in her present state, of recognising aspects of reality which conflict with
the constructs of her subconscious mind, any more than she is capable of
flying by flapping her arms.
"Ora Mensura" etc. are hard-wired into her neurons, axons & dendrites.
David B.
Inger E Johansson
your problem is definitely a denayer's problem.
You will not accept fact which aren't of your liking.
In you lines below you show that you lack the knowledge needed to discuss
subject line.
Too Bad. Isn't it.
Inger E
"David B" <tronos...@tesco.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:urDxc.38$nI.34@newsfe6-win...
Martyn Harrison
<tronos...@tesco.net> said:
Good point. I was just looking for the opposite of "reality", rather than
trying to set a value on the situation as it may appear to Inger.
>"Ora Mensura" etc. are hard-wired into her neurons, axons & dendrites.
I've had false memories myself, you're absolutely sure you put the lid on the
biscuit tin or whatever, but you go and look and sure enough, your memory is
playing you false.
There's nothing wrong with that if you are capable of looking and reassessing
the situation based on observation. I can see issues if you have memories in
the sort of field where this is not possible, e.g. if you genuinely remember
being abducted by aliens, whatever information is presented is either wrong or
is part of the conspiracy. I can see how that might work.
JMB
> On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 11:59:45 +0100, "JMB" <j...@utvinternet.ie> wrote:
>
> >"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message
> >news:rh3bc012q20k3q661...@4ax.com...
> >> On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 08:27:22 +0100, "David B" <tronos...@tesco.net>
> >> wrote:
--SNIP--
> >> >Remarkably, but not surprisingly, the only person in the history of
the
> >> >Internet to refer to a poem called "Ora Mensura" is Inger.
> >>
> >> Nevertheless, both a Google and Yahho search come up with:
> >>
> >> "Science Forum - The Internet's Best Science Forum!
> >> ... This is also confirmed by Ora Mensura from late 7th century;
> >> two Bullas of Pope Gregorius IV and other sources from 1st
> >> century AD to 800....
> >> www.groupsrv.com/science/viewtopic.php?p=260935 - 40k -
> >> Cached - Similar pages
> >>
> >> ... which site crashes Netscape 7.02, whether using the URL or the
> >> cached version.
> >
> >LOL! Eric, you really need to stop taking things at face value. That is
> >just a forum, and the person who posted the message was "Inger E
Johansson"
> >a Guest, and she posted it on Thu May 13, 2004 12:51 am. The fact that
> >**Inger** made the same claim somewhere else doesn't equate to
corroboration
> >of her claim.
>
> The fact that it was Inger is not apparent from the text I quoted.
> That's all I could get.
> >
That's why I said you shouldn't take things at face value. Look into them
first, and if you can't, ask someone else to, don't make pronouncements as
to what the page shows until you actually know what it shows.
--SNIP--
Tom McDonald
Eric,
I use Mozilla Thunderbird, and had no trouble opening the url.
It's a bit of a poser to me why you couldn't open it in
Netscape 7.02, since Netscape recent versions are nearly
identical to Mozilla releases.
IMHO, the web site is only useful when someone links to it, as
in this case. Otherwise, it looks too much like a BB, and folks
who post from there often seem to use BB conventions rather than
usenet conventions.
Tom McDonald
Eric Stevens
I spelled out exactly what the situation was. I wan't asking anyone to
draw any conclusions further than that.
Eric Stevens
Jim Webster
"Doug Weller" <dwe...@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1qinb8b8ak2t4$.y5juu32aocvy.dlg@40tude.net...
> > Since I seem to be one of the few having seen any document of the trade
> > north of Britain, it seems as if the trade was indead a trade secret.
>
> Tin trade by Phoenicians from Cornwall to north of Britain?
>
> Doug
a couple of days ago on TV there was a programme about the Broch builders of
Shetland and the tin in their bronze was said to come from Cornwall, if only
because it was the nearest place
Jim Webster
Doug Weller
Quite likely. That's Iron Age and tin was being mined in Cornwall then.
Although there was tin in Wales also I believe. Certainly Devon.
Doug
JMB
Given the context, it looked like you were trying to use that link as a
rebuttal to David B.'s statement that "Remarkably, but not surprisingly, the
only person in the history of the Internet to refer to a poem called "Ora
Mensura" is Inger." That is how it seemed to me in any case, hence my
statement about checking these things out first. If that's not what you
were doing, then so be it.
>
>
>
> Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
How do you expect me to do that when I reported that the site crashes
my browser? Just a simple question.
Jim Webster
purely from memory the earliest date (middle of the C14 range)was about
200BC
Jim Webster
Inger E Johansson
"Jim Webster" <J...@zerogespam.ook.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:ca8ur9$q9m$2...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
I second that from my notes. What I wonder is how tin was mined. I have read
books about mining, but that was long ago and I don't have an accurate
ground map for Cornwall to look at nor do I know anything about tin-mining
contrary to iron and silver mining. Would anyone care to give a link to Pre
Roman Iron Age tin mining.
Inger E
>
>
> Jim Webster
>
>
JMB
Let's be honest here Eric, it wouldn't have been the first time you
referenced something to support another poster without actually knowing what
information your reference provides, just assuming it provides something in
support of you. As I said, if that's not what you were doing on **this**
occassion, then so be it, but that tactic is not unknown in relation to you.
>
> > If that's not what you
> >were doing, then so be it.
>
>
>
>
> Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
Now you are on the back-step and trying to fudge a reply.
>
>>
>> > If that's not what you
>> >were doing, then so be it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
JMB
> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 10:26:57 +0100, "JMB" <j...@utvinternet.ie> wrote:
>
> >"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message
> >news:irtfc0d39cjmtahep...@4ax.com...
> >> On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 23:14:24 +0100, "JMB" <j...@utvinternet.ie> wrote:
--SNIP--
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Given the context, it looked like you were trying to use that link as
a
> >> >rebuttal to David B.'s statement that "Remarkably, but not
surprisingly,
> >the
> >> >only person in the history of the Internet to refer to a poem called
"Ora
> >> >Mensura" is Inger." That is how it seemed to me in any case, hence my
> >> >statement about checking these things out first.
> >>
> >> How do you expect me to do that when I reported that the site crashes
> >> my browser? Just a simple question.
> >
> >Let's be honest here Eric, it wouldn't have been the first time you
> >referenced something to support another poster without actually knowing
what
> >information your reference provides, just assuming it provides something
in
> >support of you. As I said, if that's not what you were doing on **this**
> >occassion, then so be it, but that tactic is not unknown in relation to
you.
>
> Now you are on the back-step and trying to fudge a reply.
>
What fudge? The reply seems pretty straight forward to me. You asked how
do I expect you to provide a link as a rebuttal when you couldn't read the
link, and I responded that you've done it before (with references) and I
thought you were doing it again. Where's the fudge in that reply?
--SNIP--
Martyn Harrison
said:
>"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message
>> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 10:26:57 +0100, "JMB" <j...@utvinternet.ie> wrote:
>
>> >> >Mensura" is Inger." That is how it seemed to me in any case, hence my
>> >> >statement about checking these things out first.
>> >>
>> >> How do you expect me to do that when I reported that the site crashes
>> >
>> >support of you. As I said, if that's not what you were doing on **this**
>> >occassion, then so be it, but that tactic is not unknown in relation to
>you.
>>
>> Now you are on the back-step and trying to fudge a reply.
>
>What fudge? The reply seems pretty straight forward to me. You asked how
>do I expect you to provide a link as a rebuttal when you couldn't read the
>link, and I responded that you've done it before (with references) and I
>thought you were doing it again. Where's the fudge in that reply?
Eric is squinking to save face.
He made a stupid error that had me laughing out loud, and he knows it, but now
that he's decided to squink, he's looking to make it seem as if you have
misrepresented him.
That way, he can make out (presumably only fooling himself) that his original
cockup was due to you misrepresenting what he did / does.
Eric Stevens
It's shifting the grounds of your argument. If you can't get me on one
you will try nailing me on another -and another - then the one after
that - and so on infinitum.
>You asked how
>do I expect you to provide a link as a rebuttal when you couldn't read the
>link, and I responded that you've done it before (with references) and I
>thought you were doing it again. Where's the fudge in that reply?
Never mind. :-(
Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
<nos...@spammers.of.the.world.unite> wrote:
>Apparently on date Thu, 10 Jun 2004 11:54:06 +0100, "JMB" <j...@utvinternet.ie>
>said:
>
>>"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message
>>> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 10:26:57 +0100, "JMB" <j...@utvinternet.ie> wrote:
>>
>>> >> >Mensura" is Inger." That is how it seemed to me in any case, hence my
>>> >> >statement about checking these things out first.
>>> >>
>>> >> How do you expect me to do that when I reported that the site crashes
>>> >
>>> >support of you. As I said, if that's not what you were doing on **this**
>>> >occassion, then so be it, but that tactic is not unknown in relation to
>>you.
>>>
>>> Now you are on the back-step and trying to fudge a reply.
>>
>>What fudge? The reply seems pretty straight forward to me. You asked how
>>do I expect you to provide a link as a rebuttal when you couldn't read the
>>link, and I responded that you've done it before (with references) and I
>>thought you were doing it again. Where's the fudge in that reply?
>
>Eric is squinking to save face.
>
>He made a stupid error that had me laughing out loud, and he knows it, but now
>that he's decided to squink, he's looking to make it seem as if you have
>misrepresented him.
What ever accusation may have been implied by my question, it wasn't
misrepresentation.
>
>That way, he can make out (presumably only fooling himself) that his original
>cockup was due to you misrepresenting what he did / does.
>
Eric Stevens
JMB
What argument?
> If you can't get me on one
> you will try nailing me on another -and another - then the one after
> that - and so on infinitum.
What nailing? I said that **I** read it a certain way, and if that was not
what you meant then so be it. I accepted your clarification. The only
person trying to make an argument out of it is you.
>
> >You asked how
> >do I expect you to provide a link as a rebuttal when you couldn't read
the
> >link, and I responded that you've done it before (with references) and I
> >thought you were doing it again. Where's the fudge in that reply?
>
> Never mind. :-(
I don't. I'm well used to your crap at this stage.
>
>
>
> Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
>Martyn Harrison <nos...@spammers.of.the.world.unite> wrote in message news:<49udc0pku0aetge1n...@4ax.com>...
>> But is it not rather self-evident that an "ora mensura" written in 275 BCE
>> can't actually mention voyages by Irish monks seven hundred or more years after
>> it was supposed to be written?
>>
>>
>I don't know about any-one else but the idea of Irish monks in the
>BC's sounds like an Ingerism.
>Perhaps its in her Oxford dictionary :-)
Who said they were christian Irish monks? :-)
Eric Stevens
Inger E Johansson
"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> skrev i meddelandet
news:ug4ic098ei76eeps2...@4ax.com...
Among other Hon. Bede who refered to the older text.
Inger E
>
>
>
> Eric Stevens
>
Martyn Harrison
>Martyn Harrison <nos...@spammers.of.the.world.unite> wrote in message news:<49udc0pku0aetge1n...@4ax.com>...
>> But is it not rather self-evident that an "ora mensura" written in 275 BCE
>> can't actually mention voyages by Irish monks seven hundred or more years after
>> it was supposed to be written?
>>
>>
>I don't know about any-one else but the idea of Irish monks in the
>BC's sounds like an Ingerism.
>Perhaps its in her Oxford dictionary :-)
Hmm, maybe we're on the verge of coining a new term, akin to "Squink". I quite
like the word "Ingerism", but it isn't a particularly descriptive word.
I would suggest as a first stab:
Ingerism - an assertion which becomes necessary to logically support some
previous Ingerism, or stemming from an error that is never corrected and leads
instead to a trail of Ingerisms
Ingerism ad Absurdum - an argument against an edifice of Ingerisms where the
top level, latest Ingerisms have begun to look so implausible that the original
mistake, by contrast, looks almost reasonable.
Ingeristic - a description of a assertion which, although potentially true, has
the "look and feel" of an actual Ingerism.
George
Inanguerism _ WTF's she bleeding well going on about now??
I'm reassessing the archaeology of the world.
Nowhere outside of northern Europe I look do I find evidence of the
Great Swedish Encroachment into their home continent and the effects
upon the civilizations of that continent.
Perhaps Inger might elucidate this 'missing' evidence to our
satisfaction ?
R.Schenck
posted
yo inger
i sent you that email you requested a while ago. haven't heard back tho.
so i sent another one just now and wanted to make note of it in the group
so as to be sure to get your attention (i have no idea how often you check
you mail so this i figure is a good way to stand out so to speak).
R.Schenck
posted
> Eric,
> It's possible to order from Library at least works about it. It was in
> 1993 and thus it must be possible now.
This is rather silly, why don't you just name some of these works that
mention it then? You said it was even part of your thesis so the
references must be rather easy to look up and post to the group.
Don't you think that that would be a simple way to demonstrate that you are
right and the people so adamantly denying the existence of the 'ora
mensura' are, not only wrong on this occasion, but incapable of looking up
a not so incredibly obscure work or even any of the works that reference
it? Would that just be the most straightforward thing to do?
ken quirici
> "The source that either Paul or the author Paul have read thinks about must
> be Ora Mensura or as the title in original is "De mensura orbis terr?"
> written 825 AD by Dicuilus"
>
Lo! and behold! I found two sources that mention this book as "De mensura
orbis terrae", both of them ebooks available complete on questia.com - which
unfortunately costs money, but I think you can get a free trial, zip in, get the
refs, and zip out.
Anyway the books, both of which to my recollection corroborate the author as
Dicuil, and at least one the date as 825 AD, are:
Kings of Celtic Scotland/Benjamin T. Hudson, Greenwood Press, 1994
A companion to Classical Texts/F.W. Hall, Clarenddon Press, 1913.
Thanks.
Ken Quirici
Bernardz
dwe...@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk says...
> We all know the Phoenician traders traded tin from Cornwall, right? We may
> no longer think they actually mined it, but somehow they were involved.
>
> For four centuries, a Phoenician link with British tin trade has been
> accepted as more or less gospel. Of course, 400 years ago there were no
> known alternative sources of tin, it *must* have come from Britain.
>
> But as I've shown in an earlier post, we now know better.
>
> So just what is the evidence for Phoenician involvement? How well does it
> stand up to scrutiny?
>
> Or is this the archaeological equivalent of an 'urban myth'?
>
> Doug
>
When we use the word *Phoenician* in the bronze age what we are saying
is a very loose term for many different peoples that existed at that
time in that region of the Middle East of which some later on became
Phoenician.
--
In a logical world, the human race would have been extinct long ago as
no man would put up with a woman for long and any man who did, would
find that no logical woman would have kids.
Observations of Bernard - No 61
Doug Weller
> In article <ridrxsjeatav.1f...@40tude.net>,
> dwe...@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk says...
>> We all know the Phoenician traders traded tin from Cornwall, right? We may
>> no longer think they actually mined it, but somehow they were involved.
>>
>> For four centuries, a Phoenician link with British tin trade has been
>> accepted as more or less gospel. Of course, 400 years ago there were no
>> known alternative sources of tin, it *must* have come from Britain.
>>
>> But as I've shown in an earlier post, we now know better.
>>
>> So just what is the evidence for Phoenician involvement? How well does it
>> stand up to scrutiny?
>>
>> Or is this the archaeological equivalent of an 'urban myth'?
>>
>> Doug
>>
>
> When we use the word *Phoenician* in the bronze age what we are saying
> is a very loose term for many different peoples that existed at that
> time in that region of the Middle East of which some later on became
> Phoenician.
I don't think that really affects my question, which has more or less been
answered here anyway.
Doug
ken quirici
Also try searching the web for "dicuili liber" since the book as issued
in various editions is called "Dicuili liber mensura orbis terrae".
You'll get a number of entries, which indicate that there were at least
two editions of the "Dicuili liber...", one ed. G.Parthey, 1870, another
ed. JJTierney, 1967 (the latter acc. to Amazon not available). You'll
also discover an entry in the Catholic Encyclopedia about Dicuil himself.
Encyclopedia Brittanica also has an entry for Dicuil referring to the
"De mensura orbis terrae".
Not to beat this issue to death, or anything.
Thanks.
Ken Quirici
Searles O'Dubhain
"ken quirici" <kqui...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eeca902a.04061...@posting.google.com...
Dicuil was a noted teacher and astronomer among the Irish monks who
rescued science and philosophy from the ignorance of the European Dark
Ages. The knowledge of the world as an orb had been preserved in Irish
and Celtic lore for many years before that.
Searles
R.Schenck
well shit there ya go. Inger wasn't imagining it.
Inger E Johansson
"R.Schenck" <nygdan_mo...@yahoo.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:8fcb1069.04061...@posting.google.com...
No,
but I wouldn't advice any of the gentleman to read it if they can't read
Latin, nor would I chose any other version than the one I read:
Dicuilus; Dicuili liber de mensura orbis terræ a Gustavo Parthey recognitus.
Berolini, 1870.
Why? Because that's ok when one can't get hold of one of the handwritten
B-versions. The translations I have seen don't cover all text.
Inger E
David B
>> "De mensura orbis terrae", both of them ebooks available
>> complete on questia.com - which unfortunately costs money,
>> but I think you can get a free trial, zip in, get the refs, and zip out.
>
Oddly enough, nobody ever said she was imagining "De mensura orbis terrae"-
don't forget there's now a website to remind people of the original claims
and facts behind these strange discussions; this one's at:
http://www.trochos.plus.com/primesauce/sources.htm#80
David B.
Inger E Johansson
how many times have you said that I have been imagin things? Once again you
have been proven wrong.
If it's one thing I never ever do is imagin 'things'/conclusions etc when
archaeologic, historical or culture facts are on the agenda. That I am not
always willing to present proof to abusers in the groups doesn't mean that I
haven't discussed and had my opinion second by Professors and Ph.D. That I
almost always have. Why I am not willing to tell you who? Excuse me my dear
Watson either you know how to check the referenced sources yourself or you
aren't. I am not willing to do the homework of abusers.
Inger E
"David B" <tronos...@tesco.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:HzTzc.43$Y75.3@newsfe6-win...
Tom McDonald
What is the name you used for the book under discussion now?
Tom McDonald
Martyn Harrison
<odub...@comcast.net> said:
>"ken quirici" <kqui...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:eeca902a.04061...@posting.google.com...
>> kqui...@yahoo.com (ken quirici) wrote in message
>news:<eeca902a.04061...@posting.google.com>...
>
>Dicuil was a noted teacher and astronomer among the Irish monks who
>rescued science and philosophy from the ignorance of the European Dark
>Ages. The knowledge of the world as an orb had been preserved in Irish
>and Celtic lore for many years before that.
There is an old chestnut about middle aged science not knowing the earth was
round. In fact, it is easy to see the earth is round because it casts a round
shadow on the moon.
The relative behaviour of sun, earth and moon was being measured around 300
BCE, albeit with limited accuracy, based on the fact that the phases of the
moon are caused by the earth being between it and the sun and these moving
relative to the earth.
The big thing that changed in the middle ages, was the realisation that the sun
stayed put and the earth orbited around it, not the other way around.
Lukas Pietsch
> Why? Because that's ok when one can't get hold of one
> of the handwritten B-versions. The translations I have seen
> don't cover all text.
Has anybody ever wondered about Inger's usage of the terms "A-version",
"B-version" etc. in philology? I've seen her use them like this before,
apparently implying that these are generic terms denoting particular classes
or qualities of manuscripts. I must admit I know very little about
philological methods myself, so this is a genuine request for information. I
was under the impression that sigla such as "A", "B" etc are used simply as
arbitrary labels assigned to branches in a philological stemma, without
implying any particular property to them other than their internal
relationships.
I'll be happy to learn something new about philology if somebody would care
to enlighten me - but I can't help feeling this might be another
prime/primary conceptual Ingerism. And if it is, then I see a *lot* of fun
ahead...
Lukas
Martyn Harrison
>>kqui...@yahoo.com (ken quirici) wrote in message
>>>
>>> Lo! and behold! I found two sources that mention this book as
>>> "De mensura orbis terrae", both of them ebooks available
>>
>
>Oddly enough, nobody ever said she was imagining "De mensura orbis terrae"-
>don't forget there's now a website to remind people of the original claims
>and facts behind these strange discussions; this one's at:
>http://www.trochos.plus.com/primesauce/sources.htm#80
Lest we forget, it is worth noting that Inger not only wasn't referring to
either "Ora Maritima" nor "De Mensura Orbis Terrae", she *explicitly* said she
was not referring to either of these references but to a 250 AD rendering of a
poem based on a 275 BCE poem about monks sailing to Iceland and Greenland:
--------
7 June 2004 - GMT 23:43
Jona,
now I remember one of the best sources for the ancient 275 BC text about the
place. Ora Mensura. Don't remember who wrote the poem but the 275 BC text is
delievered almost in full in it.
--------
8 June 2004 - GMT 03:07
Inger,
Is it possible that you are thinking about the Ora Maritima? That's the
text I refer to in my article.
Jona
--------
8 June 2004 - GMT 03:21
No. It's a poem with good caracteristica of the place.
Inger E
--------
8 June 2004 - GMT 08:27
Remarkably, but not surprisingly, the only person in the history of the
Internet to refer to a poem called "Ora Mensura" is Inger.
Her most helpful reference dates from 4 Jan 1999:
"The source that either Paul or the author Paul have read thinks about must
be Ora Mensura or as the title in original is "De mensura orbis terra"
written 825 AD by Dicuilus"
David B
--------
8 June 2004 - GMT 09:24
David B,
I had Ora Mensura up together with my Academic Essay about waterways in
1993. Then as one of my Ancient sources delivered down in a 250 AD. Of
course I know about it even if you don't. It's more likely that I who have
been studying the subject knows about Prime sources than you who only
attacks sources and facts presented by me!
Stop your abusive style and present arguments, contra-arguments and if you
can't do that - Order in class is called for from your place.
Inger E
-----------------------------
So there you have it, the 250 AD poem is neither the Ora Maritima nor is it
Dicuilus and to say that it might be is "abusive".
Inger right? Nah, doesn't happen.
Martyn Harrison
said:
>"David B" <tronos...@tesco.net> wrote in message news:<yLexc.24$VD2...@newsfe3-win.server.ntli.net>...
>> "The source that either Paul or the author Paul have read thinks about must
>> be Ora Mensura or as the title in original is "De mensura orbis terr?"
>> written 825 AD by Dicuilus"
>
>Lo! and behold! I found two sources that mention this book as "De mensura
>orbis terrae", both of them ebooks available complete on questia.com - which
>unfortunately costs money, but I think you can get a free trial, zip in, get the
>refs, and zip out.
There's nothing wrong with "Dicuil, (Liber de mensura orbis terrae)" as a
reference and it's been used earlier in the thread:
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/history/grontime.html
This is not "Ora Mensura" and nor does it give any indication that anyone went
to Vinland (or Greenland) prior to the Norse. It suggests Irish monks reached
the Faroes and probably also Iceland prior to these being settled / conquered
by the Norse. This is, AFAIK, the conventional view of historians at the moment
rather than anything controversial or new.
Inger E Johansson
if you get hold of for example:
Alfred's Orosius finns på Brittish Library, MS Cotton Tiberius B,
i,f.13v(f.11v old foliation) resp. som
the Old English Orosius ed Janet Bately Oxford 1980
you will find an exempletaric part of the book where the different type of
versions and the problems the Linguists who works trying to find which
version is depending on which and origin from which is explained.
One other good example is the Swedish translation of Adam of Bremen's work.
Adam av Bremen, Historien om Hamburgstiftet och dess biskopar / Adam av
Bremen ; övers. av Emanuel Svenberg ; komment. av Carl Fredrik Hallencreutz
... ; utg. av Samfundet Pro fide et christianismo
förlag/år: Stockholm : Proprius, 1984 ; (Helsingborg : Schmidt)
serie: Skrifter / utgivna av Samfundet Pro fide et christianismo, , ISSN
0349-4896 ; 6
there are many more such example who fill in the gap you are asking
questions about.
Inger E
David B
>Inger wrote:
>
>> Why? Because that's ok when one can't get hold of one
>> of the handwritten B-versions. The translations I have seen
>> don't cover all text.
>
>Has anybody ever wondered about Inger's usage of the terms "A-version",
>"B-version" etc. in philology? I've seen her use them like this before,
>apparently implying that these are generic terms denoting particular
classes
>or qualities of manuscripts. I must admit I know very little about
>philological methods myself, so this is a genuine request for information.
I
>was under the impression that sigla such as "A", "B" etc are used simply
as
>arbitrary labels assigned to branches in a philological stemma, without
>implying any particular property to them other than their internal
>relationships.
Inger has also referrred to C-versions on at least one occasion, so let's
not get too involved in this :-)
Yes, they are just arbitrary labels, and will be applied differently to
different works.
Davi
David B
>
>There is an old chestnut about middle aged science not knowing the earth
was
>round. In fact, it is easy to see the earth is round because it casts a
round
>shadow on the moon.
I've never quite understood how the perception of the shadow would differ
if the earth was a flat disc.
David B.
Searles O'Dubhain
"Martyn Harrison" <nos...@spammers.of.the.world.unite> wrote in message
It's true that the theories regarding the relationship of the Sun to the
Earth in terms of revolutions and center position changed as a result of
Copernicus's studies and Galileo's proof using Venus and the telescope.
Up until that point one could not observe the phases of another planet
with the naked eye. That's not the only thing that changed (of course),
as the Middle Ages represented a time that occurred for much of Europe
between the dominance of Roman culture and the beginning of the
Renaissance.
Searles
Martyn Harrison
<tronos...@tesco.net> said:
Well, you can see the moon in a variety of phases, these correspond with the
earth being at different angles w.r.t. the moon (and sun).
If the earth was a round plate, the shadow wouldn't be round when the moon was
near the horizon, it would be elongated. You might have a shadow strip with
sunlit moon either side, if the plate was thin.
The point is you can have the same crescent moon at different positions in the
sky at different times of night, at the morning and in the evening, and during
the day, it makes no difference to the shape of the shadow.
Not to say this is necessarily obvious, but if you study what might cause it
using apples and candles, you work out what you're seeing quite quickly.
David B
>
>Apparently on date Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:28:10 +0100, "David B"
><tronos...@tesco.net> said:
>
>>Martyn Harrison wrote in message ...
>>>
>>>round shadow on the moon.
>>
>>I've never quite understood how the perception of the shadow would differ
>>if the earth was a flat disc.
>
>Well, you can see the moon in a variety of phases, these correspond with
the
>earth being at different angles w.r.t. the moon (and sun).
>
>
>The point is you can have the same crescent moon at different positions in
the
>sky at different times of night, at the morning and in the evening, and
during
>the day, it makes no difference to the shape of the shadow.
Well that worked a treat (sorry, but it's an interesting case of one
misconception being superseded by another...)
This proof has almost nothing to do with phases of the moon- the correct
answer is that no matter where in the sky a lunar ECLIPSE appears to be
taking place from your viewpoint, the Earth's shadow-disk always appears to
be roughly the same shape and size.
David B. (unable to resist an unscheduled coffee break)
Doug Weller
[SNIP]
> Dicuil was a noted teacher and astronomer among the Irish monks who
> rescued science and philosophy from the ignorance of the European Dark
> Ages. The knowledge of the world as an orb had been preserved in Irish
> and Celtic lore for many years before that.
With a few exceptions, the church in general had preserved the knowledge of
the world as an orb.
St. Augustine, for instance, makes it clear that that the earth is round,
rejecting arguments that certain Biblical passages could be misused to
claim a flat earth.
The main Christian Flat Earth culprits (heavily dwelled upon in the
19th century when the 'flat earth myth' was invented_ were two 5th
Century Christian writers, Cosmas and Lactantius. In all, in the first
15 Christian centuries, 5 writers argued for a flat earth, a few others
were ambiguous or not interested. Church scholarly opinion was that it
was a sphere. The Venerable Bede, writing in the early 8th century, wrote:
"The cause of the unequal length of the days is the globular shape
of the Earth, for it was not without reason that the Sacred Scriptures
and secular letters speak of the shape of the earth as an orb." And the orb
of the earth was frequently seen in medieval Christian art.
A fascinating book on this is Inventing the Flat Earth: Columbus and
Modern Historians, by Jeffrey Burton Russell. Another very interesting
book, which deals in part with the university teaching (they of course were
Christian) is Rudolf Simek's Heaven and Earth in the Middle Ages. That
makes it clear a round earth was taught. Another book in my library on this
is The Shape of the World, by Simon Berthon and Andrew Robinson. All say
the same thing.
The idea that the church supported a flat earth is a myth.
Searles O'Dubhain
"Doug Weller" <dwe...@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1jtf8t26e37vf.odyw19luj3hc$.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:00:21 -0400, Searles O'Dubhain wrote:
> [SNIP]
> > Dicuil was a noted teacher and astronomer among the Irish monks who
> > rescued science and philosophy from the ignorance of the European
Dark
> > Ages. The knowledge of the world as an orb had been preserved in
Irish
> > and Celtic lore for many years before that.
>
> With a few exceptions, the church in general had preserved the
knowledge of
> the world as an orb.
> St. Augustine, for instance, makes it clear that that the earth is
round,
> rejecting arguments that certain Biblical passages could be misused to
> claim a flat earth.
>
Stahl, _Roman Science_,p. 218:
"Astronomy was a ticklish subject for patristic writers to handle
systematically. That the Lord God, and not some Platonic Fabricator, had
created heaven and earth and ordained the movements of the stars and
planets was absolutely clear; but when it came to the shape of the
universe and earth, it was not always easy to reconcile scriptural
concepts with the doctrines of pagan philosophers and astronomers. Very
few Church Fathers who wrote on the subject were as bitter as Lactantius
in his denunciation of such ridiculous pagan notions as a spherical
earth and the existence of antipodeans. Their attitude was rather one of
caution against close study of pagan doctrines, and their own writings
on the physical universe were full of ambiguities. Any Father who gave
only a cursory or gingerly perusal to a work of classical astronomy
would find little difficulty in reconciling the figurative and
allegorical descriptions of the scriptures with the abstruse
cosmographies of pagan astronomers. To be sure, even classical Latin
encyclopedists and handbook compilers who vaunted their knowledge of
scientific subjects and seemingly applied themselves to such studies
were seldom able to comprehend the elements of Greek astronomy and
mathematical geography, and mingled bits of doctrines belonging to
different periods. Should we be surprised then if, in patristic
accounts, we find the heavens shaped like a tabernacle, tent, vault or
sphere, and the earth represented as a plane, disc, cylinder, or
sphere - a melange of scriptural concepts and Platonic, Lucretian, and
even pre-Socratic doctrines?"
<snip>
> The idea that the church supported a flat earth is a myth.
What seems to have happened prior to the end of the Middle Ages is that
scientific attitudes were that the Earth was a sphere or globe but that
this idea was never presented forcefully in opposition to any
interpretations of scriptures that it was flat. The reason for this
reluctance seems to be that many in the Church considered the Earth to
be flat. I don't think this idea was a myth at all. I also don't think
it waited until the 19th century to be a commonly held belief.
Searles
Searles O'Dubhain
"Doug Weller" <dwe...@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1jtf8t26e37vf.odyw19luj3hc$.dlg@40tude.net...
<snip>
> The idea that the church supported a flat earth is a myth.
Here's a very complete essay/web site/ebook on the topic of "Flat
Earth":
http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/flat_earth_myth_refs.html
It basically says IMO that there have been proponents of a Flat Earth
since antiquity. It also seems to say that the majority scientific
thought on the matter during this period is that the earth is a sphere.
It points out that earlier Church fathers embraced a Flat Earth concept
while this idea had almost died out during the later Middle Ages. The
Flat Earth concept was revived during the 19th century and is now being
repudiated by Christian scholars as a myth that is promoted by those who
would attack Christianity in favor of science or atheism. The conclusion
is that Flat Earth proponents have existed throughout history, within
and without the Church. It is also concluded that the idea that the Flat
Earth is a recent myth is itself a fallacy. This is an extremely brief
and cursory summary of the ebook which should be read in its entirety to
see a well rounded and complete discussion of the matter.
Searles