Previously undiscovered ancient city found on Caribbean sea floor
crunch
Time will tell whether there is anything to the story.
I sincerely and strongly doubt that there is evidence
here of any advanced civilization.
Let's stick to the archaeological data, if there is
any.
David Christainsen
Jack Linthicum
> http://www.heralddeparis.com/previously-undiscovered-ancient-city-fou...
>
> Time will tell whether there is anything to the story.
> I sincerely and strongly doubt that there is evidence
> here of any advanced civilization.
>
> Let's stick to the archaeological data, if there is
> any.
>
> David Christainsen
Then why post it?
crunch
wrote:
The universe is stranger than you think; also, reaction
to my post may bring in additional information on the site.
I am curious as to the truth; you are not. What else is new?
David Christainsen
Jack Linthicum
Bullshit, you knew there was no archaeological content. One forgotten
newspaper prints some bad photos and you are on it like a dog on dung
pile.
Tom McDonald
Seems a cross between the 'city' 'found' years ago in deep water
near Cuba (with no real follow-through) and Yonaguni. Thin veneer
of scientific imaging of an almost certainly natural geological
formation.
So, no archaeological evidence whatsoever. Some preliminary
imagery; nothing more.
--
Tom "Go Pack" McDonald
crunch
>
> - Show quoted text -
Huh? I was speaking of presumed archaeological data
in the future. Is your game just to be an irritant?
David Christainsen
benl...@ihug.co.nz
> crunch wrote:
> >http://www.heralddeparis.com/previously-undiscovered-ancient-city-fou...
>
> > Time will tell whether there is anything to the story.
> > I sincerely and strongly doubt that there is evidence
> > here of any advanced civilization.
>
> > Let's stick to the archaeological data, if there is
> > any.
>
> Seems a cross between the 'city' 'found' years ago in deep water
> near Cuba (with no real follow-through) and Yonaguni. Thin veneer
> of scientific imaging of an almost certainly natural geological
> formation.
>
> So, no archaeological evidence whatsoever. Some preliminary
> imagery; nothing more.
>
> --
> Tom "Go Pack" McDonald
Looks dodgy as shit. Have you seen any genuine archaeology recently
with not only the location unidentified, but the investigators
unnamed...."contact the editor of this paper if you want to give them
some money..."? Sheesh!
Ross Clark
Jack Linthicum
I had the impression I was flying over suburban Los Angeles in a deep
fog. There are similar natural formations, one in Tasmania seems to be
a large paved courtyard.
Tom McDonald
I just noticed the link to the more 'detailed' images. They are
of the 'Face on Mars' variety, and probably as indicative of
civilization as the Cydonian Face.
crunch
All signs shout fraud or misinformation as to any submerged city.
I believe the vague pictures show natural formations.
Yet, "we" don't know 100 %. But, in my view it is not
worthwhile to spend the resources to investigate this site
archaeologically or any other way to find out unless there
were a whole lot more to go on.
So, the intellectual problem that comes to mind as this
thread has grown is - how do scientists tell whether stone
formations underwater on the sea floor are natural or artificial?
Please review the SA discussion on Yonaguni but also -
Robert M. Schoch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._Schoch
"He is also known for his research on the Yonaguni underwater
'monuments,' where he has dived on several occasions, beginning in
1997; his analysis of the formations is that it is a natural site
modified by man to suit their needs. He has said that 'We should also
consider the possibility that the Yonaguni Monument is fundamentally a
natural structure that was utilized, enhanced, and modified by humans
in ancient times.'
http://www.morien-institute.org/yonaguni.html
-----
David Christainsen
Eric Stevens
My guess is that it is a hoax.
My first thought was that it is virtually unheard of for ancient
cities to be laid out with such determined rectalinear neatness and
that a fake set of satellite images has been created using images of a
modern city. But the images are too ordered even for that and now I am
of the opinion that most likely the images are based on a mask for an
integrated circuit of some kind.
Eric Stevens
Tom McDonald
> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 15:23:47 -0800 (PST), crunch
>
> >http://www.heralddeparis.com/previously-undiscovered-ancient-city-fou...
>
> >Time will tell whether there is anything to the story.
> >I sincerely and strongly doubt that there is evidence
> >here of any advanced civilization.
>
> >Let's stick to the archaeological data, if there is
> >any.
>
> My guess is that it is a hoax.
>
> My first thought was that it is virtually unheard of for ancient
> cities to be laid out with such determined rectalinear neatness and
> that a fake set of satellite images has been created using images of a
> modern city. But the images are too ordered even for that and now I am
> of the opinion that most likely the images are based on a mask for an
> integrated circuit of some kind.
So. . . does that mean you aren't going to send them any money?
Peter Alaca
It is very easy to produce such pictures.
I can do that in ten minutes a picture.
crunch
> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 15:23:47 -0800 (PST), crunch
>
> >http://www.heralddeparis.com/previously-undiscovered-ancient-city-fou...
>
> >Time will tell whether there is anything to the story.
> >I sincerely and strongly doubt that there is evidence
> >here of any advanced civilization.
>
> >Let's stick to the archaeological data, if there is
> >any.
>
> My guess is that it is a hoax.
>
> My first thought was that it is virtually unheard of for ancient
> cities to be laid out with such determined rectalinear neatness and
> that a fake set of satellite images has been created using images of a
> modern city. But the images are too ordered even for that and now I am
> of the opinion that most likely the images are based on a mask for an
> integrated circuit of some kind.
>
> Eric Stevens
Thanks for your polite and informative reply; I agree.
Moving on, I am interested in your conclusions on Yonaguni.
Please note how nuanced Prof. Schoch is; I already gave his quote.
David Christainsen
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
http://www.heralddeparis.com/previously-undiscovered-ancient-city-found-on-caribbean-sea-floor/65855
http://www.photoshelter.com/c/davewalshphoto/image/I0000ry0IN6uxA_o
Look alike?
Peter Alaca
> On Dec 17, 3:28 pm, Eric Stevens <eric.stev...@sum.co.nz> wrote:
>> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 15:23:47 -0800 (PST), crunch
>>
>> <pchristain...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> http://www.heralddeparis.com/previously-undiscovered-ancient-city-fou...
>>> Time will tell whether there is anything to the story.
>>> I sincerely and strongly doubt that there is evidence
>>> here of any advanced civilization.
>>> Let's stick to the archaeological data, if there is
>>> any.
>> My guess is that it is a hoax.
>>
>> My first thought was that it is virtually unheard of for ancient
>> cities to be laid out with such determined rectalinear neatness and
>> that a fake set of satellite images has been created using images of a
>> modern city. But the images are too ordered even for that and now I am
>> of the opinion that most likely the images are based on a mask for an
>> integrated circuit of some kind.
>>
>> Eric Stevens
>
> Thanks for your polite and informative reply; I agree.
So why didn't you say so when you posted the shit?
crunch
>
> - Show quoted text -
When I turned part of the conversation in this thread to Yonaguni,
it fulfilled my original reason for starting this thread.
So, to repeat - the intellectual problem that comes to mind as this
thread has grown is - how do scientists tell whether stone
formations underwater on the sea floor are natural or artificial?
Further, it is not an either-or issue in that Prof. Schoch allows for
"the possibility that the Yonaguni Monument is fundamentally a
natural structure that was utilized, enhanced, and modified by humans
in ancient times."
Do you agree with Prof. Schoch here? Yet, can you also answer how
scientists tell whether stone formations underwater on the sea floor
are natural or artificial?
I know you can, Mr. Archaeology.
David Christainsen
Peter Alaca
So you were masquerading again.
>
crunch
> crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> 17/12/2009 22:35 wrote:
>...
> > When I turned part of the conversation in this thread to Yonaguni,
> > it fulfilled my original reason for starting this thread.
>
> So you were masquerading again.
Your slowness to perceive the truth about my motives
and competence here is glacial. Prof. Schoch is not
worth your comment etc... This is sci.archaeology.
-----
Yet also - Tom McDonald asked me to go first to give Dillehay's
views on the First Americans. Sad to say, Tom has so far
refused my request to provide SA with his summary evaluation of
Dillehay's career to prepare the way for my entry. Do you
remember that I gave you the original opportunity to cover
Dillehay but you refused?
So, the relationships involving myself with you and Tom are
deeply disturbed; this is just the latest example.
Nonetheless, if my coming material is good enough, it will
lead to a proper SA discussion of the First Americans since
it is a topic I care about.
-----
Why can't you be more like Ross Clark, Mr. Archaeology?
David Christainsen
Peter Alaca
> On Dec 17, 5:14 pm, Peter Alaca <p.al...@invallid.invalid> wrote:
>> crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> 17/12/2009 22:35 wrote:
>> ...
>>> When I turned part of the conversation in this thread to Yonaguni,
>>> it fulfilled my original reason for starting this thread.
>> So you were masquerading again.
>> ...
>
> Your slowness to perceive the truth about my motives
> and competence here is glacial. Prof. Schoch is not
> worth your comment etc... This is sci.archaeology.
>
> -----
>
> Yet also - Tom McDonald asked me to go first to give Dillehay's
> views on the First Americans.
But the subject of this therad is "Previously undiscovered
ancient city found on Caribbean sea floor"
> [snip rest off topic shit]
crunch
>
> - Show quoted text -
Your nitpicking is counter-productive. Why don't
you deal with serious achaeological topics soon?
David Christainsen
Eric Stevens
You never know: I might already have paid for the product of the mask.
Eric Stevens
Tom McDonald
It'd be interesting to hear from someone versed in integrated
circuits as to whether one (though not me) could determine the
kind of circuit(s) seen in the images.
It is possible that we've all paid for the product of the mask. :-)
Jack Linthicum
Tom McDonald
Add in the natural features at Yonaguni (both above and below the
waves) for 3-D evidence. Nature may not like straight lines, but
She does make a lot of what look like straight lines, if you look
at them through enough crud, or from a great enough height.
JerryT
You could try the execution unit of a intel 386 chip ;-o
http://www.science.widener.edu/~schultz/chips/386small.jpg
JjT
> It is possible that we've all paid for the product of the mask. :-)
>
> --
> Tom "Go Pack" McDonald- Dölj citerad text -
>
> - Visa citerad text -
Tom McDonald
That's it!
>> It is possible that we've all paid for the product of the mask. :-)
>>
>> --
>> Tom "Go Pack" McDonald- D�lj citerad text -
>>
>> - Visa citerad text -
>
crunch
Yet, Prof. Schoch allows for "the possibility that the
Yonaguni Monument is fundamentally a natural structure
that was utilized, enhanced, and modified by humans
in ancient times."
Yonaguni Monument
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yonaguni_Monument#cite_note-mukimura-2
"The Yonaguni Monument is a massive underwater rock formation off the
coast of Yonaguni, the southernmost of the Ryukyu Islands, in Japan.
While many archaeologists and geologists believe that it is a natural
formation, some hold the view that some of its features are man-
made." (For man-made reference please see -
Masaaki Kimura (1991). Mu tairiku wa Ryukyu ni atta (The Continent of
Mu was in Ryukyu). Tokuma Shoten.)
"Other evidence presented by those who favor an artificial origin
include the two round holes (about 2 feet wide, according to
photographs) on the edge of the Triangle Pool feature, and a straight
row of smaller holes which have been interpreted as an abandoned
attempt to split off a section of the rock by means of wedges, as in
ancient quarries. Kimura believes that he has identified traces of
drawings of animals and people engraved on the rocks, including a
horse-like sign that he believes resembles a character from the Kaida
script. Some have also interpreted a formation on the side of one of
the monuments as a crude moai-like 'face'.
Supporters of artificial origin also argue that, while many of the
features seen at Yonaguni are also seen in natural sandstone
formations throughout the world, the concentration of so many peculiar
formations in such a small area is highly unlikely. They also point
out to the relative absence of loose blocks on the flat areas of the
formation, which would be expected if they were formed solely by
natural erosion and fracturing.
If any part of the Monument was deliberately constructed or modified,
that must have happened during the last Ice Age, when the sea level
was much lower than it is today (e.g. 39 m at 10,000 years BCE).
During the Ice Age, the East China Sea was a narrow bay opening to the
ocean at today's Tokara Gap.[12] The Sea of Japan was an inland sea
and there was no Yellow Sea; people and animals could walk into the
Ryukyu peninsula from the continent. Therefore, Yonaguni was the
southern end of a land bridge that connected it to Taiwan, Ryūkyū,
Japan and Asia. This fact is underscored by a rock pillar in a now-
submerged cave that has been interpreted as a fused stalactite-
stalagmite pair, which could only form above water.
Prof. Masaaki Kimura first estimated that this must be at least 10,000
years old (8,000 BCE) dating it to a time when it would have been
above water. [13] He later revised his estimate as a result of the
remains of marine organisms attached to some parts of the Monument
have been carbon-dated 6,000 years old, so that would be an upper
limit to the date of its construction. [5][14] Human presence in the
Ryukyu Islands is believed to date from over 16,000 years ago, as
attested for example by the Yamashita-cho bones (Yamashita Cave Man)
(carbon-14-dated 32,000 years ago) and the Minatogawa Man skeletons
(dated 16,000 years ago).[12][15]"
David Christainsen
Tom McDonald
Nothing new. I think pretty much everyone here has an
at-least-Wiki level of knowledge of Yonaguni. What is missing is
anything like archaeology. So far, it is all just finding images
in clouds. Nothing yet upon which to hang one's hat.
But if you have new, archaeological information, by all means
present it.
JerryT
>
> >> - Visa citerad text -
>
> --
>
> - Visa citerad text -
I'll bet it's Atalanta. Isn't it a Google Earth hand in this one...
http://www.heralddeparis.com/wp-content/gallery/caribbean/jes30-08-dec-2125.jpg
JjT
Eric Stevens
No.
What you have there is the naturally occuring
beach-stone/beach-rock/sea-stone formed by the deposit of carbonates
from the sea. Certainly the lines are predominantly straight but some
are curved and the whole patter lacks the neatly rectalinear form of
the claimed city.
Eric Stevens
Jack Linthicum
I question whether you can see enough detail in the "sunken city" to
distinguish the neatness that you claim.
crunch
They have never shown that they have.
> What is missing is
> anything like archaeology. So far, it is all just finding images
> in clouds. Nothing yet upon which to hang one's hat.
No smoking gun, I agree. But, that is often
the case in Science, a work in progress.
> But if you have new, archaeological information, by all means
> present it.
>...
What I really want is for other sci.archers to get
involved in this discussion soon so that the real
issues, old or not, may be addressed.
David Christainsen
Peter Alaca
Here is another picture ;-)
http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/7036/386cld.jpg
Peter Alaca
Nobody is interested in your "real issues"
BTW, the subject of this thread is "Previously undiscovered
JerryT
>
> - Visa citerad text -
Here is the real stuff. It's damn serious...
http://maps.google.se/maps?hl=sv&ie=UTF8&ll=18.344444,-64.548798&spn=0.002408,0.003428&t=h&z=18
JjT
crunch
Maybe; maybe not. BTW not MY real issues; instead, THE
real issues.
> BTW, the subject of this thread is "Previously undiscovered
> ancient city found on Caribbean sea floor"
Header got changed to Yonaguni Monument; didn't you notice?
David Christainsen
Tom McDonald
> On Dec 19, 2:51 pm, Tom McDonald <tmcdonald2...@charter.net> wrote:
<snip>
>> Nothing new. I think pretty much everyone here has an
>> at-least-Wiki level of knowledge of Yonaguni.
>
> They have never shown that they have.
Tell you what: use that internet search skill you say you have to
see what has already been discussed about the Yonaguni 'Monument'
on s.a. in the past. If you can show that the subject never got
the attention you think it deserves, show us where we've
discussed it in the past, and where exactly you see the lack of
an at-least-Wiki level of knowledge of Yonaguni is betrayed.
>> What is missing is
>> anything like archaeology. So far, it is all just finding images
>> in clouds. Nothing yet upon which to hang one's hat.
>
> No smoking gun, I agree. But, that is often
> the case in Science, a work in progress.
Except that "progress" on this issue is limited to a few folks
who think they see human-made features in an undoubtedly natural
formation. AFAIK, no serious archaeologist has investigated
beyond the initial 'gee-whiz' visuals; and nor, to my knowledge,
is any serious archaeologist planning to.
>> But if you have new, archaeological information, by all means
>> present it.
>> ...
>
> What I really want is for other sci.archers to get
> involved in this discussion soon so that the real
> issues, old or not, may be addressed.
Enumerate the 'real issues', please. Then collate them with the
issues already discussed here, as shown by the Google archive of
this ng.
JerryT
>
> > - Visa citerad text -
>
> Here is the real stuff. It's damn serious...
>
>
> JjT- Dölj citerad text -
>
> - Visa citerad text -
Turn up the volume a bit, then...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XijzS1-seg
"...the French newspaper..."
Registrant:
Herald de Paris et Cie., Ltd.
65 Grant Avenue
San Francisco, California 94101
United States
Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (www.godaddy.com...)
Domain Name: HERALDDEPARIS.COM
Created on: 01-Nov-08
Expires on: 01-Nov-10
Last Updated on: 03-Nov-09
Administrative Contact:
Alexander, Jes edi...@parisherald.com
Herald de Paris et Cie., Ltd.
65 Grant Avenue
San Francisco, California 94101
United States
4157387811 Fax -- 4157387811
LOL
JjT
Peter Alaca
Header changed again, Does that mean that the subject
of this thread changed?
benl...@ihug.co.nz
>
> > - Visa citerad text -
>
> Here is the real stuff. It's damn serious...
>
>
> JjT
"Hitta företag, adresser och platser.
Går du, kör du bil eller åker du kollektivt? Hämta vägbeskrivningar.
Google Maps stöder inte din webbläsare helt och hållet. Mer
information »
Googles startsida - Användningsvillkor - Hjälp
©2009 Google"
Yep, sounds serious alright.
benl...@ihug.co.nz
While we're on the subject...I don't pretend to be up with "advanced
satellite imagery", but in my recollection of satellite photos I don't
remember seeing _anything_ below the surface of the sea, even in quite
shallow water. Is this now a commonplace, or is this more pseudo-
scientific bullshit-bafflement? I'm finding it hard to believe in
images this clear taken from the air, whether satellite or plane or
whatever -- unless the water was ridiculously shallow and clear, in
which case how would this massive structure have remained unnoticed
until now?
Ross Clark
JerryT
wrote:
Most likely pixelation of jpg compression artefacts.
(I installed an English version of Windows XP and downloaded Firefox
just for this? This thread is a waste of time )
JjT
Eric Stevens
You may be right, but if you are, can you identify a line which
departs from the major orthogonal set?
Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
>> >> Tom "Go Pack" McDonald- D�lj citerad text -
>>
>> >> - Visa citerad text -
>>
>> Here is another picture ;-)http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/7036/386cld.jpg- D�lj citerad text -
>>
>> - Visa citerad text -
>
>Here is the real stuff. It's damn serious...
>
>http://maps.google.se/maps?hl=sv&ie=UTF8&ll=18.344444,-64.548798&spn=0.002408,0.003428&t=h&z=18
>
It can be seen in Google Earth in a cloud shadow a short distance to
the SE of Deadman's Bay in the British Virgin Islands. Not only is the
layout of the 'city' rectalinear but it appears to be true N-S, E-W
also.
Eric Stevens