Dead Sea Scrolls led to the destruction of Christ's divinity; Qumran archaeology played a part in the evidence
crunch
God was just a title.
Once the reader acknowledges the validity of
Dr. Thiering's dating scheme for composition
of DSS and NT, he/she will probably find
convincing her identification of DSS Teacher
of Righteousness as Zadokite John the Baptist
and of DSS Wicked Priest as Davidic Jesus Christ.
BTW the major scene of the action was Qumran,
not Jersualem; BTW Qumran was originally a
religious settlement of Essenes; BTW the scrolls
CANNOT be disassociated from the Qumran site.
My current goal is to promote discussion of the
Thiering Thesis allong the lines of an academic
seminar. No polemic should be allowed; people
should be free to give honest, polite, and
informative opinion without personal attacks. I
expect there to be disagreements but that's OK.
Official Thiering website
http://www.pesherofchrist.infinitesoulutions.com/
BTW I encourage the reader to learn Thiering pesher;
the importance of this is to comprehend Thiering
Methodology as leading to convincing Thiering conclusions.
Peace (after the Quaker fashion),
David Christainsen
Newton, Mass. USA
Sir David
> Once the reader acknowledges the validity of
No.
> My current goal is to promote discussion of the
> Thiering Thesis allong the lines of an academic
> seminar. <FLUSH>
You have absolutely no chance of ever achieving that goal. Your many
years of failure on Usenet show that.
> Official Thiering <hobbyhorse website, of course, of course>
> BTW I encourage the reader to learn Thiering pesher <FLUSH>
No.
crunch
> On Dec 29, 11:42 am, crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Once the reader acknowledges the validity of
> > Dr. Thiering's dating scheme <FLUSH>
>
> No.
<UNFLUSH> Yes.
> > My current goal is to promote discussion of the
> > Thiering Thesis allong the lines of an academic
> > seminar. <FLUSH>
<UNFLUSH>
> You have absolutely no chance of ever achieving that goal. Your many
> years of failure on Usenet show that.
You have not the faintest idea of what you are
"talking" about; yours is a profoundly ignorant remark.
> > Official Thiering <hobbyhorse website, of course, of course>
Of course not; it's not my hobbyhorse; it's
my idealism, my dedication, and education
for others because Dr. Thiering has done
paradigm-breaking scholarly work.
> > BTW I encourage the reader to learn Thiering pesher <FLUSH>
<UNFLUSH>
> No.
Yes.
Day Brown
>> You have absolutely no chance of ever achieving that goal. Your many
>> years of failure on Usenet show that.
>
> You have not the faintest idea of what you are
> "talking" about; yours is a profoundly ignorant remark.
However, women are gaining political and economic power. The accepted
cosmology has always reflected the power structure, which has been run
by men, so an alpha male tyrant concept of the divine was accepted.
Prove whatever you want. The women taking power will ignore it. Their
money will go twards archeological revelations of their own spiritual
pre-history when women ran the world's first free trade mercantile
empire in SE Europe. Then, the accepted concept was Gaia.
I do not know any young women who giva fuck what happened in the "Holy
Land", an oxmoron, full of men who preached peace but use cosmology to
justify war.
crunch
I give you this; your commentary is interesting, never dull.
Suffice it to say, Dr. Thiering is an exception to your dictum.
At one time she was Australia's leading feminist; yet, she has
integrity to treat Christian Origins according to the highest
academic standards. BTW she once did archaeology at Qumran.
Peter Alaca
Fuck off, this is sci.archaeology
crunch
>
> - Show quoted text -
Leave sci.archaeology and don't hit the door on the
way out.
jerry warner
Sir David wrote:
> On Dec 29, 11:42 am, crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Once the reader acknowledges the validity of
> > Dr. Thiering's dating scheme <FLUSH>
>
> No.
>
> > My current goal is to promote discussion of the
> > Thiering Thesis allong the lines of an academic
> > seminar. <FLUSH>
>
> You have absolutely no chance of ever achieving that goal. Your many
> years of failure on Usenet show that.
it thinks its an Austin Healey! Fish always do that!
Cormac
Once upon a time there was a mountain god called Yawveh. His consort
was Asherah. He spawned three religions which are at each others
throats to this day.
Cormac.
Day Brown
> Suffice it to say, Dr. Thiering is an exception to your dictum.
> At one time she was Australia's leading feminist; yet, she has
> integrity to treat Christian Origins according to the highest
> academic standards. BTW she once did archaeology at Qumran.
in a world increasingly run by women, the cosmology will, as it always
had, come to reflect the sensibilities of the power elites. Since that
will be women, the Levantine concept of an alpha male tyrant god will be
replaced by the Great Earth Mother, Gaia, or whatever you want to call
Her. Nobody will care what went on in the Holy Land.
Not that the divine is actually female so much as that it is not male.
The original Aryan myth, which always had much more respect for women's
power, had it that Gaia parthenogenically 'gave birth' to the world and
all life, but did so without a 'divine plan'. Rather, as all Natural
Mothers, She created life to fulfill its own destiny.
Which is why the hand of Fate spins out the thread of life, as women
have done for 10,000 years or more. Destiny is individual; there are,
and never were, "chosen people" or races damned for all eternity.
crunch
What's with the racy change in subject line? Further, I
have asked repeatedly not to be called Carl anymore since
it is only my middle name.
David Christainsen
doublePlusPaleo
> crunch wrote:
>> Suffice it to say, Dr. Thiering is an exception to your dictum.
>> At one time she was Australia's leading feminist; yet, she has
>> integrity to treat Christian Origins according to the highest
>> academic standards. BTW she once did archaeology at Qumran.
> I am not challenging the substance of her position, merely saying, that
> in a world increasingly run by women, the cosmology will, as it always
> had, come to reflect the sensibilities of the power elites. Since that
> will be women, the Levantine concept of an alpha male tyrant god will
> be replaced by the Great Earth Mother, Gaia, or whatever you want to
> call Her. Nobody will care what went on in the Holy Land.
The alpha male myth would surely then be replaced by the 'Dead Sea
Vagina Monologues'.
trailbender
> Jesus Christ did not die on the cross; Son of
> God was just a title.
>
> Once the reader acknowledges the validity of
> Dr. Thiering's dating scheme for composition
> of DSS and NT, he/she will probably find
> convincing her identification of DSS Teacher
> of Righteousness as Zadokite John the Baptist
> and of DSS Wicked Priest as Davidic Jesus Christ.
Trailbender replies:
I've read many books on New Testament Studies over the
last 50 years. Many by top experts of mainline churches
from various countries. Such as Dominic Crossan, Bishop
J.S. Spong (ret.), Matthew Fox of Harvard fame, Borg,
Dunn, Wright, Bultmann,......... Occasionally, Dr. Thiering's
name came up. But nothing was said that indicated
any of the experts had bought into Dr Thiering's
identification of DSS Teacher
of Righteousness as Zadokite John the Baptist
and of DSS Wicked Priest as Davidic Jesus Christ.
Dr. Thiering's earth shaking theory may be correct.
But why hasn't it received the acceptance and
applause it would richly deserve if John were indeed
the Teacher of Righteousness and Jesus,
contrary to all kosher portrayals of him, for 2000 years,
as possessing a beautiful spirit and now seated on the right hand
of God himself.
Please outline, briefly if you wish, the arguments
of the Australian Doctor that persuaded you to
buy into the identification above.
(<<Kelly>>)
Can you say "oppositional defiant due to Narcissistic Personality
Disorder"?
George
He could but 'whacked out crackhead' has a certain poetry about it
-
duke
wrote:
>Jesus Christ did not die on the cross; Son of
>God was just a title.
Actually, if you knew what you were talking about, Jesus the man died on the
cross.
The Dukester, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
George
> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 08:42:32 -0800 (PST), crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Jesus Christ did not die on the cross; Son of
> >God was just a title.
>
> Actually, if you knew what you were talking about, Jesus the man died on the
> cross.
And the archaeological evidence is?
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the
result of an order.
Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and
inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their
abominations,
called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had
its origin,
suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the
hands
of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous
superstition,
thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea,
the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things
hideous
and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and
become popular.
Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty;
then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not
so much of the crime
of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every
sort was added
to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by
dogs and perished,
or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt,
to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero
offered his gardens
for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus,
while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood
aloft on a car.
Tacitus 15:44
George
<jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com> wrote:
> On Jan 1, 5:05 pm, George <gbl...@hnpl.net> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 2, 11:03 am, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 08:42:32 -0800 (PST), crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > >Jesus Christ did not die on the cross; Son of
> > > >God was just a title.
>
> > > Actually, if you knew what you were talking about, Jesus the man died on the
> > > cross.
>
> > And the archaeological evidence is?
>
> did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the
> result of an order.
Not archaeology!
Is the crunchy thing morphing ?
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
When archaeolgists find texts, they don't
ignore them.
p1
P. Oxy. 2
1-fe
III
Mt 1:1-9,12,14-20
Philadelphia, Univ. of Penns., Univ. Mus. of Arch. and Anthro. Egypt.
Sect., E 2746; P. Oxy. 2
p2
3
VI
Jo 12:12-15
Firenze, Mus. Egizio., Inv. 7134
p3
3
VI/VII
Lc 7:36-45;10:38-42
Wien, Österr. Nat. Bibl., Pap. G. 2323
p4
1-n
III
Lc 1:58-59,62-80,Z;2:1,6-7;3:8-38,Z;4:1-2,29-32,34-35;5:3-8,30-39,Z;
6:1-16
Paris, Bibl. Nat., Suppl. Gr. 1120
p5
P. Oxy. 208 + 1781
1-n
III
Jo 1:23-31,33-40;16:14-30;20:11-17,19-20,22-25
London, Brit. Libr., Inv. 782. 2484; P. Oxy. 208. 1781
p6
2
IV
Jo 10:1-2,4-7,9-10;11:1-8,45-52
Strasbourg, Bibl. Nat. et Univ., Pap. copt. 379. 381. 382.384
p7
?
III-IV(?)
Lc 4:1-3
Kiev, Centr. Nauch. Bibl., F. 301 (KDA) 553p
p8
2
IV
Act 4:31-37;5:2-9;6:1-6,8-15
Berlin, Staatl. Mus., Inv. 8683
p9
P. Oxy. 402
1-fr
III
1Jo 4:11-12,14-17
Cambridge (Mass.), Harvard Univ., Houghton Library, Inv. 3736; P.
Oxy. 402
p10
P. Oxy. 209
1
IV
Rm 1:1-7
Cambridge (Mass.), Harvard Univ., Houghton Library, Inv. 2218; P.
Oxy. 209
p11
2
VII
1Cor 1:17-22;2:9-12,14;3:1-3,5-6;4:3-21,Z;
5:1-5,7-8;6:5-9,11-18;7:3-6,10-14
St. Petersburg, Ross. Nac. Bibl., Gr. 258A
p12
1-n
III
Heb 1:1
New York, Pierpont Morgan Libr., Pap. Gr. 3; P. Amherst 3b
p13
P. Oxy. 657
1-fr
III/IV
Heb 2:14-18,Z;3:1-19,Z;4:1-16,Z;5:1-5;10:8-22,29-39,Z;11:1-13,28-40,Z;
12:1-17
London, Brit. Libr., Inv. 1532 v; P. Oxy. 657; Cairo, Egyptian Mus.,
PSI 1292
p14
2
V
1Cor 1:25-27;2:6-8;3:8-10,20
Sinai, St. Catherine's, P. Sinai II, Harris 14
p15
P. Oxy. 1008
1-n
III
1Cor 7:18-40,Z;8:1-4
Cairo, Egyptian Mus., JE 47423; P. Oxy. 1008
p16
P. Oxy. 1009
1-n
III/IV
Ph 3:10-17;4:2-8
Cairo, Egyptian Mus., JE 47424; P. Oxy. 1009
p17
P. Oxy. 1078
2
IV
Heb 9:12-19
Cambridge, Univ. Libr., Add. Mss. 5893; P. Oxy. 1078
p18
P. Oxy. 1079
1-n
III/IV
Apc 1:4-7
London, Brit. Libr., Inv. 2053v; P. Oxy. 1079
p19
P. Oxy. 1170
2
IV/V
Mt 10:32-42,Z;11:1-5
Oxford, Bodl. Libr., Gr. bibl. d. 6 (P); P. Oxy. 1170
p20
P. Oxy. 1171
1-n
III
Jc 2:19-26,Z;3:1-9
Princeton, Univ. Libr., Am 4117; P. Oxy. 1171
p21
P. Oxy. 1227
3
IV/V
Mt 12:24-26,32-33
Allentown, Muhlenberg Coll., Theol. Pap. 3; P. Oxy. 1227
p22
P. Oxy. 1228
1-n
III
Jo 15:25-27,Z;16:1-2,21-32
Glasgow, Univ. Libr., Ms. Gen. 1026/13; P. Oxy. 1228
p23
P. Oxy. 1229
1-fe
III
Jc 1:10-12,15-18
Urbana, Univ. of Illinois, G. P. 1229; P. Oxy. 1229
p24
P. Oxy. 1230
1
IV
Apc 5:5-8;6:5-8
Newton Centre, Andover Newton Theol. School, F. Trask Libr., OP 1230;
P. Oxy. 1230
p25
?
IV
Mt 18:32-34;19:1-3,5-7,9-10
Berlin, Staatl. Mus., Inv. 16388
p26
P. Oxy. 1354
1
ca. 600
Rm 1:1-16
Dallas, Southern Meth. Univ., Bridwell Libr.; P. Oxy. 1354
p27
P. Oxy. 1355
1-fe
III
Rm 8:12-22,24-27,33-39,Z;9:1-3,5-9
Cambridge, Univ. Libr., Add. Mss. 7211; P. Oxy. 1355
p28
P. Oxy. 1596
1-n
III
Jo 6:8-12,17-22
Berkeley, Pacific School of Rel., Palestine Inst. Museum, Pap. 2; P.
Oxy. 1596
p29
P. Oxy. 1597
1-fr
III
Act 26:7-8,20
Oxford, Bodl. Libr., Gr. bibl. g. 4 (P); P. Oxy. 1597
p30
P. Oxy. 1598
1-n
III
1Th 4:12-13,16-17;5:3,8-10,12-18,25-28; 2Th 1:1-2
Gent, Rijksuniv., Univ. Bibl., Inv. 61; P. Oxy. 1598
p31
2
VII
Rm 12:3-8
Manchester, J. Rylands Univ. Libr., Gr. P. 4; P. Ryl. 4
p32
1-n
ca. 200
Tt 1:11-15;2:3-8
Manchester, J. Rylands Univ. Libr., Gr. P. 5; P. Ryl. 5
p33
cum p58
2
VI
Act 7:6-10,13-18;15:21-24,26-32
Wien, Österr. Nat. Bibl., Pap. G. 17973.26133.35831 (= P58); 39783
p34
2
VII
1Cor 16:4-7,10; 2Cor 5:18-21;10:13-14;11:2,4,6-7
Wien, Österr. Nat. Bibl., Pap. G. 39784
p35
1
IV(?)
Mt 25:12-15,20-23
Firenze, Bibl. Medicea Laurenziana; PSI 1
p36
3
VI
Jo 3:14-18,31-32,34-35
Firenze, Bibl. Medicea Laurenziana; PSI 3
p37
1-fr
III/IV
Mt 26:19-52
Ann Arbor, Univ. of Michigan, Inv. 1570; P. Mich. 137
p38
4
ca. 300
Act 18:27-28,Z;19:1-6,12-16
Ann Arbor. Univ. of Michigan, Inv. 1571; P. Mich. 138
p39
P. Oxy. 1780
1-fe
III
Jo 8:14-22
formerly: Rochester, Ambrose Swasey Libr., Inv. 8864; P. Oxy. 1780.
June 20, 2003 sold unknown
p40
1-fr
III
Rm 1:24-27,31-32,Z;2:1-3;3:21-31,Z;4:1-8;6:4-5,16;9:16-17,27
Heidelberg, Inst. f. Papyrologie der Univ., P. Heid. Inv. 645
p41
3
VIII
Act 17:28-34,Z;
18:1-2,17-18,22-25,27;19:1-4,6-8,13-16,18-19;20:9-13,15-16,22-24,26-38;21:1-4,26-27;22:11-14,16-17
Wien, Österr. Nat. Bibl., Pap. K. 7377. 7384. 7396. 7426. 7541-48.
7731. 7912. 7914
p42
2
VII/VIII
Lc 1:54-55;2:29-32
Wien, Österr. Nat Bibl., Pap. K. 8706
p43
2
VI/VII
Apc 2:12-13;15:8,Z;16:1-2
London, Brit. Libr., Inv. 2241
p44a
2
VI/VII
Jo 10:8-14
New York, Metropol. Mus. of Art, Inv. 14. 1. 527, 1 fol.
p44b
2
VI/VII
Mt 17:1-3,6-7;18:15-17,19;25:8-10; Jo 9:3-4;12:16-18
New York, Metropol. Mus. of Art, Inv. 14. 1. 527
p45
1-fr
III
Mt 20:24-32;21:13-19;25:41-46,Z;26:1-39; Mc 4:36-40;5:15-26,38-43,Z;
6:1-3,16-25,36-50;7:3-15,25-37,Z;8:1,10-26,34-38,Z;
9:1-9,18-31;11:27-33,Z;12:1,5-8,13-19,24-28; Lc 6:31-41,45-49,Z;
7:1-7;9:26-41,45-62,Z;10:1,6-22,26-42,Z;11:1,6-25,28-46,50-54,Z;
12:1-12,18-37,42-59,Z;13:1,6-24,29-35,Z;14:1-10,17-33; Jo
4:51,54;5:21,24;10:7-25,30-42,Z;11:1-10,18-36,42-57; Act
4:27-36;5:10-21,30-39;6:7-15,Z;7:1-2,10-21,32-41,52-60,Z;
8:1,14-25,34-40,Z;9:1-6,16-27,35-43,Z;
10:1-2,10-23,31-41;11:2-14,24-30,Z;12:1-5,13-22;13:6-16,25-36,46-52,Z;
14:1-3,15-23;15:2-7,19-27,38-41,Z;16:1-4,15-21,32-40;17:9-17
Dublin, Chester Beatty Libr., P. Chester Beatty I; Wien, Österr. Nat.
Bibl., Pap. G. 31974
p46
1-fr
ca. 200
Rm 5:17-21,Z;6:1-3,5-14;8:15-25,27-35,37-39,Z;9:1-32;10:1-21,Z;
11:1-22,24-33,35-36,Z;12:1-21,Z;13:1-14,Z;14:1-23,Z;15:1-9,11-33,Z;
16:1-27; 1Cor 1:1-31,Z;2:1-16,Z;3:1-23,Z;4:1-21,Z;5:1-13,Z;6:1-20,Z;
7:1-40,Z;8:1-13,Z;9:1-2,4-27,Z;10:1-33,Z;11:1-34,Z;12:1-31,Z;13:1-13,Z;
14:1-14,16-40,Z;15:1-15,17-58,Z;16:1-22; 2Cor 1:1-24,Z;2:1-17,Z;
3:1-18,Z;4:1-18,Z;5:1-21,Z;6:1-18,Z;7:1-16,Z;8:1-24,Z;9:1-15,Z;
10:1-18,Z;11:1-10,12-21,23-33,Z;12:1-21,Z;13:1-13; Gal 1:1-8,10-24,Z;
2:1-9,12-21;3:2-29;4:2-18,20-31,Z;5:1-17,20-26,Z;6:1-8,10-18; Eph
1:1-23,Z;2:1-7,10-22,Z;3:1-21,Z;4:1-32,Z;5:1-6,8-33,Z;
6:1-6,8-18,20-24; Ph 1:1,5-15,17-28,30,Z;2:1-12,14-27,29-30,Z;
3:1-8,10-21;4:2-12,14-23; Col 1:1-2,5-13,16-24,27-29,Z;2:1-19,23,Z;
3:1-11,13-24;4:3-12,16-18; 1Th 1:1,9-10,Z;2:1-3;5:5-9,23-28; Heb
1:1-14,Z;2:1-18,Z;3:1-19,Z;4:1-16,Z;5:1-14,Z;6:1-20,Z;7:1-28,Z;
8:1-13,Z;9:1-16,18-28,Z;10:1-20,22-30,32-39,Z;11:1-40,Z;12:1-29,Z;
13:1-25
Dublin, Chester Beatty Libr., P. Chester Beatty II; Ann Arbor, Univ.
of Michigan, Inv. 6238
p47
1-n
III
Apc 9:10-21,Z;10:1-11,Z;11:1-3,5-19,Z;12:1-18,Z;13:1-18,Z;14:1-20,Z;
15:1-8,Z;16:1-15,17-21,Z;17:1-2
Dublin, Chester Beatty Libr., P. Chester Beatty III
p48
4
III
Act 23:11-17,25-29
Firenze, Bibl. Medicea Laurenziana; PSI 1165
p49
1-n
III
Eph 4:16-29,32,Z;5:1-13
New Haven, Yale Univ. Libr., P. 415 + 531
p50
3
IV/V
Act 8:26-32;10:26-31
New Haven, Yale Univ. Libr., P. 1543
p51
P. Oxy. 2157
2
ca. 400
Gal 1:2-10,13,16-20
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.; P. Oxy. 2157
p52
1-n
II
Jo 18:31-33,37-38
Manchester, J. Rylands Univ. Libr., Gr. P. 457
p53
1-n
III
Mt 26:29-40; Act 9:33-43,Z;10:1
Ann Arbor, Univ. of Michigan, Inv. 6652
p54
3
V/VI
Jc 2:16-18,22-26;3:2-4
Princeton, Univ. Libr., Garrett (former deposit) 7742; P. Princ. 15
p55
2
VI/VII
Jo 1:31-33,35-38
Wien, Österr. Nat. Bibl., Pap. G. 26214
p56
2
V/VI
Act 1:1,4-5,7,10-11
Wien, Österr. Nat. Bibl., Pap. G. 19918
p57
2
IV/V
Act 4:36-37,Z;5:1-2,8-10
Wien, Österr. Nat. Bibl., Pap. G. 26020
p58
vide p33
p59
3
VII
Jo
1:26,28,48,51;2:15-16;11:40-52;12:25,29,31,35;17:24-26;18:1-2,16-17,22;21:7,12-13,15,17-20,23
New York, Pierpont Morgan Libr.; P. Colt 3
p60
3
VII
Jo 16:29-30,32-33,Z;
17:1-6,8-9,11-15,18-25;18:1-2,4-5,7-16,18-20,23-29,31-37,39-40;19:2-3,5-8,10-18,20,23-26
New York, Pierpont Morgan Libr.; P. Colt 4
p61
2
ca. 700
Rm 16:23-27; 1Cor 1:1-2,4-6;5:1-3,5-6,9-13; Ph 3:5-9,12-16; Col
1:3-7,9-13;4:15; 1Th 1:2-3; Tt 3:1-5,8-11,14-15; Phm 1:4-7
New York, Pierpont Morgan Libr.; P. Colt 5
p62
2
IV
Mt 11:25-30
Oslo, Univ. Bibl., Inv. 1661
p63
3
ca. 500
Jo 3:14-18;4:9-10
Berlin, Staatl. Mus., Inv. 11914
p64
cum p67
1-fe
ca. 200
Mt 3:9,15;5:20-22,25-28;26:7-8,10,14-15,22-23,31-33
Oxford, Magdalen Coll., Gr. 17 (earlier erroneously 18); Barcelona,
Fundación S. Lucas Evang., P. Barc. 1 (= P67)
p65
1-fe
III
1Th 1:3-10,Z;2:1,6-13
Firenze, Ist. di Pap. «G. Vitelli»; PSI XIV 1373
p66
1-fr
ca. 200
Jo 1:1-51,Z;2:1-25,Z;3:1-36,Z;4:1-54,Z;5:1-47,Z;6:11,35-71,Z;7:1-52,Z;
8:12-59,Z;9:1-41,Z;10:1-42,Z;11:1-57,Z;12:1-50,Z;13:1-38,Z;
14:1-26,29-30;15:2-26;16:2-4,6-7,10-33,Z;17:1-26,Z;18:1-40,Z;19:1-42,Z;
20:1-20,22-23,25-31,Z;21:1-9
Cologny, Bibl. Bodmer.; P. Bodmer II; Dublin, Chester Beatty Libr.,
P. Chester Beatty s.n.; Köln, Inst. f. Altertumskunde, Inv. Nr.
4274/4298
p67
vide p64
p68
3
VII(?)
1Cor 4:12-17,19-21,Z;5:1-3
St. Petersburg, Ross. Nac. Bibl., Gr. 258B
p69
P. Oxy. 2383
4
III
Lc 22:41,45-48,58-61
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.; P. Oxy. 2383
p70
P. Oxy. 2384
1-fe
III
Mt 2:13-16,22-23,Z;3:1;11:26-27;12:4-5;24:3-6,12-15
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.; P. Oxy. 2384; Firenze, Ist. di Pap. «G.
Vitelli», PSI inv. CNR 419,420
p71
P. Oxy. 2385
2
IV
Mt 19:10-11,17-18
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.: P. Oxy. 2385
p72
1-fr
III/IV
1Pt 1:1-25,Z;2:1-25,Z;3:1-22,Z;4:1-19,Z;5:1-14; 2Pt 1:1-21,Z;2:1-22,Z;
3:1-18; Jd 1:1-25
Cologny, Bibl. Bodmer.; P. Bodmer VII. VIII (1. 2 Pt hodie in Bibl.
Vaticana)
p73
?
VII
Mt 25:43;26:2-3
Cologny, Bibl. Bodmer., P. Bodmer L
p74
1
VII
Act 1:2-5,7-11,13-15,18-19,22-25;2:2-4,6-47,Z;
3:1-26;4:2-6,8-27,29-37,Z;5:1-42,Z;6:1-15,Z;7:1-60,Z;8:1-40,Z;9:1-43,Z;
10:1-48,Z;11:1-30,Z;12:1-25,Z;13:1-52,Z;14:1-28,Z;15:1-41,Z;16:1-40,Z;
17:1-34,Z;18:1-28,Z;19:1-40,Z;20:1-38,Z;21:1-40,Z;22:1-30,Z;23:1-35,Z;
24:1-27,Z;25:1-27,Z;26:1-32,Z;27:1-25,27-44,Z;28:1-31; Jc
1:1-6,8-19,21-23,25,27;2:1-3,5-15,18-22,25-26;3:1,5-6,10-12,14,17-18;4:8,11-14;5:1-3,7-9,12-14,19-20;
1Pt 1:1-2,7-8,13,19-20,25;2:6-7,11-12,18,24;3:4-5; 2Pt 2:21;3:4,11,16;
1Jo
1:1,6;2:1-2,7,13-14,18-19,25-26;3:1-2,8,14,19-20;4:1,6-7,12,16-17;5:3-4,9-10,17;
2Jo 1:1,6-7,13; 3Jo 1:6,12; Jd 1:3,7,12,18,24
Cologny, Bibl. Bodmer.; P. Bodmer XVII
p75
1-fe
III
Lc 3:18-22,33-38,Z;4:1-2,34-44,Z;5:1-10,37-39,Z;6:1-4,10-49,Z;
7:1-32,35-39,41-43,46-50,Z;8:1-56,Z;9:1-2,4-62,Z;10:1-42,Z;11:1-54,Z;
12:1-59,Z;13:1-35,Z;14:1-35,Z;15:1-32,Z;16:1-31,Z;17:1-15,19-37,Z;
18:1-18;22:4-71,Z;23:1-56,Z;24:1-53,Z; Jo 1:1-51,Z;2:1-25,Z;3:1-36,Z;
4:1-54,Z;5:1-47,Z;6:1-71,Z;7:1-52,Z;8:12-59,Z;9:1-41,Z;10:1-42,Z;
11:1-45,48-57;12:3-50,Z;13:1-10;14:8-31,Z;15:1-10
Cologny, Bibl. Bodmer.; P. Bodmer XIV. XV
p76
3
VI
Jo 4:9,12
Wien, Österr. Nat. Bibl., Pap. G. 36102
p77
P. Oxy. 2683 + 4405
1-n
II/III
Mt 23:30-39
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.; P. Oxy. 2683
p78
P. Oxy. 2684
1-fr
III/IV
Jd 1:4-5,7-8
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.; P. Oxy. 2684
p79
2
VII
Heb 10:10-12,28-30
Berlin, Staatl. Mus., Inv. 6774
p80
1
III
Jo 3:34
Barcelona, Fundación S. Lucas Evang., P. Barc. 83
p81
2
IV
1Pt 2:20-25,Z;3:1,4-12
Trieste, S. Daris, Inv. 20
p82
2
IV/V
Lc 7:32-34,37,38
Strasbourg, Bibl. Nat. et Univ., Gr. 2677
p83
3
VI
Mt 20:23-25,30-31;23:39,Z;24:1,6
Louvain, Bibl. de l'Univ., P. A. M. Kh. Mird 16. 29
p84
3
VI
Mc 2:2-5,8-9;6:30-31,33-34,36-37,39-41; Jo 5:5;17:3,7-8
Louvain, Bibl. de l'Univ., P. A. M. Kh. Mird 4. 11. 26. 27
p85
2
IV/V
Apc 9:19-21,Z;10:1,5-9
Strasbourg, Bibl. Nat. et Univ., Gr. 1028
p86
2
IV
Mt 5:13-16,22-25
Köln, Inst. für Altertumskunde, Inv. Nr. 5516
p87
1-n
III
Phm 1:13-15,24-25
Köln, Inst. für Altertumskunde, Inv. Nr. 12
p88
3
IV
Mc 2:1-26
Milano, Univ. Cattolica, P. Med. Inv. 69.24
p89
IV
Heb 6:7-9,15-17
Firenze, Bibl. Medicea Laurenziana, PL III/292
p90
P. Oxy. 3523
II
Jo 18:36-40,Z;19:1-7
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus. 65 6 B. 32/M (3-5)a; P. Oxy. 3523
p91
III
Act 2:30-37,46-47,Z;3:1-2
Sydney, Macquarie Univ., inv. 360; Milano, Ist. di Pap., P. Mil.
Vogl. inv. 1224
p92
III/IV
Eph 1:11-13,19-21; 2Th 1:4-5,11-12
Cairo, Egyptian Mus., PNarmuthis 69.39a/229a
p93
V
Jo 13:15-17
Firenze, Ist. Pap. «G. Vitelli», PSI inv. 108
p94
V/VI
Rm 6:10-13,19-22
Cairo, Eqyptian Mus., P. Cair. 10730
p95
III
Jo 5:26-29,36-38
Firenze, Bibl. Medicea Laur., PL II/31
p96
VI
Mt 3:13-15
Wien, Österr. Nat. Bibl., Pap. K 7244
p97
VI/VII
Lc 14:7-14
Dublin, Chester Beatty Libr., P. Chester Beatty XVII
p98
II(?)
Apc 1:13-20
Cairo, Institut Français d'Archéologie Orientale, P. IFAO inv. 237b
p99
ca. 400
Glossary (single words and phrases from:) Rm 1:1; 2Cor 1:3-6, 1:6-17,
1:20-24, 2:1-9, 2:9-5:13, 5:13-6:3, 6:3-8:13, 8:14-22, 9:2-11:8,
11:9-23, 11:26-13:11;Gal 1:4-11, 1:18-6:15,1:14-2:4,
2:4-3:19,3:19-4:9;Eph 1:4-2:21,1:22(?),3:8-6:24
Dublin, Chester Beatty Libr., P. Chester Beatty Ac. 1499, fol. 11-14
p100
P. Oxy. 4449
III/IV
Jc 3:13-4:4, 4:9-5:1
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.
p101
P. Oxy. 4401
III
Mt 3:10-12,3:16-4:3
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.
p102
P. Oxy. 4402
III/IV
Mt 4:11-12,22-23
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.
p103
P. Oxy. 4403
II/III
Mt 13:55-56,14:3-5
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.
p104
P. Oxy. 4404
II
Mt 21:34-37,43,45?
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.
p105
P. Oxy. 4406
V/VI
Mt 27:62-64,28:2-5
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.
p106
P. Oxy. 4445
III
Jo 1:29-35,40-46
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.
p107
P. Oxy. 4446
III
Jo 17:1-2,11
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.
p108
P. Oxy. 4447
III
Jo 17:23-24,18:1-5
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.
p109
P. Oxy. 4448
III
Jo 21:18-20,23-25
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.
p110
P. Oxy. 4494
IV
Mt 10:13-14,25-27
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.
p111
P. Oxy. 4495
III
Lc 17:11-13,22-23
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.
p112
P. Oxy. 4496
V
Act 26:31-32; 27:6-7
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.
p113
P. Oxy. 4497
III
Rm 2:12-13,29
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.
p114
P. Oxy. 4498
III
Heb 1:7-12
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.
p115
P. Oxy. 4499
III/IV
Apc 2:1-3,13-15,27-29; 3:10-12; 5:8-9; 6:5-6; 8:3-8,11-13;
9:1-5,7-16,18-21; 10:1-4,8-11; 11:1-5,8-15,18-19; 12:1-5,8-10,12-17;
13:1-3,6-16,18; 14:1-3,5-7,10-11,14-15,18-20;15:1,4-7
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.
p116
P.Vindob. G 42417
VI/VII
Heb 2,9-11 + 3,3-6
Wien, Österr. Nat. Bibl.
p117
P.Hamb. Inv. NS 1002
IV/V
2K 7,6-8; 7,9-11
Hamburg, Staats- u. Univ. Bibl., P.Hamb. Inv. NS 1002
p118
P.Köln 10311
III
Rm 15,26–27.32–33; 16,1.4–7.11–12
Köln, Inst. für Altertumskunde, Inv. Nr. 10311
p119
P. Oxy. 4803
III
Jo 1,21-28; 38-44
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.
p120
P. Oxy. 4804
IV
Jo 1,25-28; 33-38; 42-44
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.
p121
P. Oxy. 4805
III
Jo 19,17-18; 25-26
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.
p122
P. Oxy. 4806
IV/V
Jo 21,11-14; 22-24
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.
p123
P. Oxy. 4844
IV
1Cor 14:31-34, 15:3-6
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.
p124
P. Oxy. 4845
VI
2Cor 11:1-4, 6-9
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.
p125
P. Oxy. 4934
III/IV
1Pt 1:23-2:5, 2:7-12
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.
p126
IV
Heb 13:12-13,19-20
Firenze, Bibl. Medicea Laurenziana; PSI 1497
p127
P.Oxy. ???
V
Act 10-12, 15-17
Oxford, Ashmolean Mus.
Tom McDonald
> On Jan 1, 10:11 pm, George <gbl...@hnpl.net> wrote:
>> On Jan 2, 12:30 pm, "jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com> wrote:
>>> On Jan 1, 5:05 pm, George <gbl...@hnpl.net> wrote:
>>>> On Jan 2, 11:03 am, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 08:42:32 -0800 (PST), crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Jesus Christ did not die on the cross; Son of
>>>>>> God was just a title.
>>>>> Actually, if you knew what you were talking about, Jesus the man died on the
>>>>> cross.
>>>> And the archaeological evidence is?
>>> did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the
>>> result of an order.
>> Not archaeology!
>> Is the crunchy thing morphing ?
>
> When archaeolgists find texts, they don't
> ignore them.
<snip cut'n'paste>
> http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/texte/Papyri-list.html
Of course archaeologists don't ignore texts that they find. What
a curious segue!
But the *uses* to which such texts are put are seldom to do with
archaeology. There are texts that specify the existence of other
gods, replete with references to actual places, times and events.
Other than as pointers for further investigations looking for
physical evidence of elements of the particular culture referred
to in them, archaeology does not from them ensue.
When textual evidence is discovered, the burden of further
investigation *of the texts and their meaning* falls almost
entirely on folks in other disciplines, such as history,
epigraphy and theology. Now specific archaeologists may find
themselves taken enough by the texts they find to branch out into
such fields; but this does not make those fields archaeology.
In the above situation, papyri mentioning the crucifixion of a
man named Jesus may be 'archaeology' when found. There may even
be some archaeology involved in the investigation of the text on
the papyri, for clues to the next step in the *archaeological*
investigation.
But the question of the truth of what is written in the texts is
not, mostly, archaeology. History, certainly. Epigraphy, granted.
Theology, depends on the nature of the text. Archaeology -- no.
As a modern example, the Tucson Garbage Project may find a bible
in their 'dig'. That does not make the question of Jesus'
crucifixion a matter for their study of the cultural material of
Tucson, Arizona.
--
Tom "Go Pack" McDonald
Jack Linthicum
>
> read more »
Nice scrape job, now what does it mean?
Martin Edwards
By the tenth century there was only one extant copy of Tacitus in a
monastery and it had to be recopied. Slipping that gobbet in would have
been easy.
--
As through this world I've rambled, I've met plenty of funny men,
Some rob you with a sixgun, some with a fountain pen.
Woody Guthrie
Tom McDonald
> On Jan 2, 12:48 am, "jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com"
> <jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com> wrote:
>> On Jan 1, 10:11 pm, George <gbl...@hnpl.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jan 2, 12:30 pm, "jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com"
>>> <jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> On Jan 1, 5:05 pm, George <gbl...@hnpl.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Jan 2, 11:03 am, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 08:42:32 -0800 (PST), crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Jesus Christ did not die on the cross; Son of
>>>>>>> God was just a title.
>>>>>> Actually, if you knew what you were talking about, Jesus the man died on the
>>>>>> cross.
>>>>> And the archaeological evidence is?
>>>> did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the
>>>> result of an order.
>>> Not archaeology!
>>> Is the crunchy thing morphing ?
>> When archaeolgists find texts, they don't
>> ignore them.
<snip list of papyri>
>> read more �
>
> Nice scrape job, now what does it mean?
If you didn't click on 'read more', here is the link he
(finally!) gave:
http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/texte/Papyri-list.html
It's a list of papyri, AFAICT all biblical and most (all? Who
could waste time checking) New Testament.
I guess he's saying that these writings on papyrus somehow
evidence the crucifixion, and were obtained via the
archaeologist's art.
It's a particularly carl-ingian way of trying to make a religious
doctrine somehow related to archaeology. But, of course, it
really doesn't do that in a meaningful way. A true-but-trivial
way, perhaps; but not meaningful.
Tom McDonald
Nope. Just the result of promiscuous, unprotected crossposting.
Which I have snipped to just s.a.
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
> > New York, Pierpont Morgan Libr.; P. Colt 3
>
> > p60
>
> > 3
> > VII
> > Jo 16:29-30,32-33,Z;
Duh! It's ancient archaeological evidence for Christianity.
Jim
Mt 13:14 - And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which
saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing
ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Tom McDonald
> On Jan 2, 6:08 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> On Jan 2, 12:48 am, "jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com"
>>
>> <jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com> wrote:
>>> On Jan 1, 10:11 pm, George <gbl...@hnpl.net> wrote:
>>>> On Jan 2, 12:30 pm, "jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com"
>>>> <jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Jan 1, 5:05 pm, George <gbl...@hnpl.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On Jan 2, 11:03 am, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 08:42:32 -0800 (PST), crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Jesus Christ did not die on the cross; Son of
>>>>>>>> God was just a title.
>>>>>>> Actually, if you knew what you were talking about, Jesus the man died on the
>>>>>>> cross.
>>>>>> And the archaeological evidence is?
>>>>> did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the
>>>>> result of an order.
>>>> Not archaeology!
>>>> Is the crunchy thing morphing ?
>>> When archaeolgists find texts, they don't
>>> ignore them.
<snip>
>>> read more �
>> Nice scrape job, now what does it mean?
>
> Duh! It's ancient archaeological evidence for Christianity.
The issue is archaeological evidence for the crucifixion. Focus.
> Jim
>
> Mt 13:14 - And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which
> saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing
> ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Yup. You do have some difficulties with understanding and perception.
crunch
Thanks.
Zeroing in on John the Baptist as Teacher of Righteousness
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/2740
Extract -
The Period of Wrath of CD 1:7-10 has been misdated as the 2nd century
BC,
because of its reference to 'the 390 years for his giving them into
the
hands of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon'. The word letitto 'for his
giving'
has been mistranslated 'after his giving'. The word le does not mean
'after'
, but 'to' or 'for'. The usage of the pesharim has not been
recognised.
According to 1QpHab, the OT Babylonians, Chaldeans, are present-day
Kittim, Romans. The word 'Babylon' is used as a code name for the
Romans in
1 Pet 5:13 and Rev 18. The 390 years is derived from Ezek 4:5 ,
treated as
always at Qumran as a prophecy for their own times. They saw it as a
prediction of the length of the Roman occupation, starting from AD 6.
Since the Teacher came 20 years after the Period of Wrath, his date is
AD
26. He is said to have died about 40 years before an event that is
readily
understood as the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 (CD 20:14), that is he
died
about AD 30. These dates are the same as those of John the Baptist.
The Teacher is still alive in the pesher on Psalms. Its carbondating
shows
that its writing material was not manufactured until the early first
century
AD. It is not a copy of an earlier work. The paleographical dating of
1QpHab
is 20-50 AD. It is contrary to the truth to announce, as is sometimes
still
done, that the carbondating and paleography are against my case. They
are
strongly for my case, and help to prove it.
2 There are such close parallels between the T of R and John the
Baptist
that, given the same date, there is reason for seeing them as the same
person. In summary: both operated in the Wilderness of Judea, an area
of
only about 7 square miles. The stepped baptismal cisterns at Qumran
show
that both baptised. The Teacher's name is a play on words, meaning 'he
who
rains down (baptises with) righteousness'. Both taught a coming fiery
judgement of the wicked. Both were strict ascetics.
3 The Teacher had a rival, whose success was the main subject of the
pesharim. The rival had led away many from the Teacher's New Covenant
(1QpHab 2:1-8). The rival is called both the Man of Lie and the Wicked
Priest - both terms refer to the same person, as shown by the Habakkuk
passage, and by the fact that the WP was "called by the name of truth
when
he first arose" (1QpHab 8:8-9). He was therefore the same as the Man
of a
Lie, a dissident member of the community. 'Truth', like all terms, has
a
particular meaning at Qumran, referring to their particular doctrines;
they
alone had the Truth.
The rival disregarded the Law - "he flouted the Law in the midst of
the
whole congregation" (1QpHab 5:11-12). He did not observe ritual law -
"he
lived in the ways of abomination amidst every unclean defilement" and
"committed abominable deeds and defiled the temple of God" (1QpHab
8:12-13;
12:8-9).
The description fits Jesus, as seen from the point of view of his
opponents.
But against this is the objection that the gospels do not appear to
show
John and Jesus as rivals, only one as the predecessor of the other.
The
answer to this is in the pesher, the underlying history. The theory of
pesher is supplied by the Qumran pesharim; the rest from a long
process of
testing every word for particular, special, technical meanings. See my
books
and most of our entries in the group. I am saying that it is proven
that
John the Baptist was the Teacher of Righteousness, and that far more
than
this is now available - the whole history of Jesus and the foundation
of the
Christian Church.
B.T.
Peace,
George
wrote:
> On Jan 1, 10:11 pm, George <gbl...@hnpl.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 2, 12:30 pm, "jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com"
>
> > <jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com> wrote:
> > > On Jan 1, 5:05 pm, George <gbl...@hnpl.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jan 2, 11:03 am, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 08:42:32 -0800 (PST), crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com>
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > >Jesus Christ did not die on the cross; Son of
> > > > > >God was just a title.
>
> > > > > Actually, if you knew what you were talking about, Jesus the man died on the
> > > > > cross.
>
> > > > And the archaeological evidence is?
>
> > > did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the
> > > result of an order.
>
> > Not archaeology!
> > Is the crunchy thing morphing ?
>
> When archaeolgists find texts, they don't
> ignore them.
>
A very long list of references to biblical writing and documents.
I -could- here make the same length of list with the various
gutterpress publications which would look as impressive and mean as
little.
It is not archaeology!
Archaeologists use documents to find sites, to verify sites.
Theistic documents are proof only of the monks who copied them.
To 'prove' their religion what is easier than when copying a document
to make a reference that 'proves' the existance of their 'godhead'.
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
FYI - Those papyri were discovered by
archaeologists, and were written
long before the first monk, Amthony
of Egypt.
Jim
2Ti 2:15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that
needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Peter Alaca
Fuck off
Peter Alaca
So what? Still not archaeology. Please remove sci.archaeology.
Eric Stevens
So too does the creation of predictably monotonous and boring threads.
Eric Stevens
Jack Linthicum
> On Sat, 02 Jan 2010 21:06:33 +0100, Peter Alaca
>
> >crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> 02/01/2010 20:20 wrote:
>
> >Fuck off
>
> So too does the creation of predictably monotonous and boring threads.
>
> Eric Stevens
May I offer my concept of dealing with the influx of religious and
such posts? Erase sci.archaeology from the addresses, and forward it
back to whoever.
Martin Edwards
>>> p34
>>> 2
>>> VII
>>> 1Cor 16:4-7,10; 2Cor 5:18-21;10:13-14;11:2,4,6-7
>>> 7731. 7912. 7914
>>> p42
>>> 2
>>> VII/VIII
>>> Lc 1:54-55;2:29-32
>>> p56
>>> 2
>>> V/VI
>>> Act 1:1,4-5,7,10-11
>>> p57
>>> 2
>>> IV/V
>>> Act 4:36-37,Z;5:1-2,8-10
>>> p65
>>> 1-fe
>>> III
>>> 1Th 1:3-10,Z;2:1,6-13
>>> Firenze, Ist. di Pap. �G. Vitelli�; PSI XIV 1373
>>> p66
>>> 1-fr
>>> ca. 200
>>> Jo 1:1-51,Z;2:1-25,Z;3:1-36,Z;4:1-54,Z;5:1-47,Z;6:11,35-71,Z;7:1-52,Z;
>>> 8:12-59,Z;9:1-41,Z;10:1-42,Z;11:1-57,Z;12:1-50,Z;13:1-38,Z;
>>> 14:1-26,29-30;15:2-26;16:2-4,6-7,10-33,Z;17:1-26,Z;18:1-40,Z;19:1-42,Z;
>>> 20:1-20,22-23,25-31,Z;21:1-9
>>> Cologny, Bibl. Bodmer.; P. Bodmer II; Dublin, Chester Beatty Libr.,
As any fule kno, Matthew was composed precisely to demonstrate
fulfilment of prophecy.
Martin Edwards
And soc.history.ancient come to that.
Eric Stevens
Sounds good in principle but has never worked in the past. :-(
Eric Stevens
Jack Linthicum
Have you tried it?
George
More bible nonsense.
No archaeological content.
Even the crunchy thing knows that religious scripts were being copied
at his favourite site before and after the socalled 'birth'...
Eric Stevens
I've tried everything ranging from kill files to editing the groups
list. The problem with editing the groups list is that everyone has to
do it or its a waste of time.
Eric Stevens
Weland
It would have been easy, but is unlikely. We've covered this ground
many times and quite frankly there is no support for an interpolation
any more than there is grounds for saying the snippet above beginning
"By the tenth century..." is an interpolation by someone else not Martin
Edwards.
Hayabusa
I just wish the DoD would invent a stupidity-seeking drone which one
could fire through the internet.
Hayabusa
Day Brown
> The alpha male myth would surely then be replaced by the 'Dead Sea
> Vagina Monologues'.
FWIW, Joseph Campbell, Marija Gimbuats, Eliade, et al already worked
out what the original Aryan cosmology was. Nothing to do with the Levant.
For a long time, the Danubian tels were regarded as primitive copies of
Levantine communities. Then the C-14 and now dendochronology came in,
showing European Timber frame dates back 8000 years.
Dont fit with femonazi views either.
Martin Edwards
Right, it was chunky.
Weland
> Right, it was chunky.
>
Well, Martin, as I recall I asked you several years ago to provide
evidence of an interpolation here that has yet to be forthcoming.
theologynut
> Martin Edwards wrote:
> > Weland wrote:
> >> Martin Edwards wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
The beliefs of the Essenes were diametrically opposite to
Christianity, they would never have had truck with the Christian
relaxation of kosher and circumcision statutes--they were uber-Jews
who could not say the divine name aloud, spit, or even defecate on the
Sabbath. It took years of instruction and giving up your personal
wealth to be initiated and even then you could fall afoul of the
community for the slightest infraction and be disowned. Disowned
Essenes were in danger of starvation. Their sacred meal of wine and
bread seems reminiscent of the Lord's supper and their mikvaoh or
purification basins seem to parallel the Christian rite of baptism,
but water-purification was practised by the Essenes at intervals
instead of only once. The Teacher of Righteousness was thought to be
an Essene named Jonathan ca. 150 BCE, who ran afoul of a high priest
named Janneus and was executed. Most Essene literature predates
Christianity and emphasizes purity and a righteous priesthood--
Aaronite (Zadokite) rather than Hasmonean. They believed that temple
sacrifice had been defiled by usurpers and retired to the Qumran
wilderness to wait out the final battle between the Sons of Light and
the Sons of Darkness. They were apocalyptic like many early
Christians, but most scholars take the phrase Sons of Darkness to
denote the Romans. Other scholars posit that John the Baptist might
have been a renegade Essene who practised a one-time-is-sufficient
baptism for the forgiveness of sins rather than for physical
purification. Both Christians and Essenes despaired over the temple
priesthood and sought to establish other forms of worship in
replacement. After the fall of the temple, sacrificial Judaism itself
reconfigured into rabbinical Judaism. The Essene, however, were
pretty much annihilated. None of the Dead Sea Scrolls refer to Jesus
or the Christians although some of their phraseology was similar to
that of the New Testament writers.
crunch
wrote:
>...
IMHO Theologynut gives an outmoded viewpoint here
that has since been superceded.
There is no doubt that the members of the Qumran sect
were in some way Essene, although certain features of
their life show that they went beyond the Essenes.
After discovery of the DSS [Dead Sea Scrolls] it was
obvious the Qumran sect represented the form of Judaism
out of which Christianity came.
There was a split, the Christians reacting strongly
against some aspects of Qumran practice, while retaining
basic organisation and some doctrines.
Specifically, the two groups, the Qumran sect and the
early Christians, lived in the same area at about the
same time. Both met every day for a sacred meal of
bread and wine to which only initiates were admitted.
Both practised community sharing of property, a most
unusual practice for Jews. Both valued celibacy, the
Qumran sect very strongly, the Christians moderately.
Both used baptism as a method of initiation, and both
looked forward to a coming apocalyptic crisis which
would usher in a new messianic age.
They used the same names for themselves: both called
themselves "the Way", "the New Covenant", "Sons of
Light". Both had a branch in Damascus, again using
the name "the Way". They were governed by bishops,
who had similar functions in both cases.
Each lived in expectation of a New Jerusalem, with an
identical architectural plan: foursquare, with three
gates on each side, for the twelve tribes. They have
numerous terms in common, with closely parallel passages
in both sets of literature.
Specifically, see 1QS 3:18-26 [Manual of Discipline]
with Ep. Barn. 18 [the two Ways of Light and Darkness]
2 Cor 6:14-7:1 has been recognized as "Qumranian in
both thought and style; a meteor fallen from the heaven
of Qumran into Paul's epistle". [Benoit in
Murphy-O'Connor, PAUL AND QUMRAN, p. 5, 1966]
---
excerpted from chapter 2
Thiering, B. E. (Barbara Elizabeth)
Jesus the man : decoding the real story of Jesus and Mary Magdalene
[please see Editorial & Customer Reviews on amazon.com]
-----
To narrow down to Christ, see "Meaning of Essene, and more on
Josephus"
Barbara Thiering
Sat Jun 23, 2001
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/200
Sir David
> There is no doubt that
Nobody cares. Sucks to be you, Crunchy!
Martin Edwards
As there was a new copy and the old one (presumably) fell apart, there
would be no evidence. I never said I could prove it: I was speculating.
There /may/ have been a sect called Christians who were so filthy and
misanthropic that they were an easy target, but there is no description
of their beliefs.
Weland
Of course there would be. Unless the interpolator had so studied
Tacitus' style and vocabulary as to be able to exactly imitate it, and
long premeditated putting a reference at just that point and somehow of
all the mss copied and composed in that scriptorium was able to be the
very monk to copy the text of Tacitus, and then came up with the bright
idea of getting the spelling of Christ's name wrong..yeah, all that
sounds mightly likely.
Might I invite you to learn a little bit about classical textual
criticism, scribal practices, the difference and uses of external and
internal evidences relating to a text, and the detection of forgeries.
I never said I could prove it: I was speculating.
> There /may/ have been a sect called Christians who were so filthy and
> misanthropic that they were an easy target, but there is no description
> of their beliefs.
Sure, there were two or more different groups called Christians in Rome
in the 60s. No evidence for such a thing, but you true believers will
believe anything as long as it doesn't say anything positive about a
religious movement....even if it means fucking with history. Sadly,
that's no better than Sound of the Trumpet.
Martin Edwards
far I am only self taught. Permit me to enquire whether you are
qualified in the subjects you mention.
> I never said I could prove it: I was speculating.
>> There /may/ have been a sect called Christians who were so filthy and
>> misanthropic that they were an easy target, but there is no
>> description of their beliefs.
>
> Sure, there were two or more different groups called Christians in Rome
> in the 60s. No evidence for such a thing, but you true believers will
> believe anything as long as it doesn't say anything positive about a
> religious movement....even if it means fucking with history. Sadly,
> that's no better than Sound of the Trumpet.
theologynut
> out of which Christianity came.
>
> There was a split, the Christians reacting strongly
> basic organisation and some doctrines.
>
> early Christians, lived in the same area at about the
> same time. Both met every day for a sacred meal of
> bread and wine to which only initiates were admitted.
>
> Both practised community sharing of property, a most
> Both used baptism as a method of initiation, and both
> looked forward to a coming apocalyptic crisis which
> would usher in a new messianic age.
>
> They used the same names for themselves: both called
> themselves "the Way", "the New Covenant", "Sons of
> Light". Both had a branch in Damascus, again using
> the name "the Way". They were governed by bishops,
> who had similar functions in both cases.
>
> Each lived in expectation of a New Jerusalem, with an
> identical architectural plan: foursquare, with three
> gates on each side, for the twelve tribes. They have
> numerous terms in common, with closely parallel passages
> in both sets of literature.
>
> Specifically, see 1QS 3:18-26 [Manual of Discipline]
> with Ep. Barn. 18 [the two Ways of Light and Darkness]
>
> 2 Cor 6:14-7:1 has been recognized as "Qumranian in
> both thought and style; a meteor fallen from the heaven
> Murphy-O'Connor, PAUL ANDQUMRAN, p. 5, 1966]
>
> ---
>
> excerpted from chapter 2
> Thiering, B. E. (Barbara Elizabeth)
> Jesus the man : decoding the real story of Jesus and Mary Magdalene
> [please see Editorial & Customer Reviews on amazon.com]
>
> -----
>
> To narrow down to Christ, see "Meaning of Essene, and more on
> Josephus"
> Barbara Thiering
> Sat Jun 23, 2001
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/200
>
> David Christainsen
>
> - Show quoted text -
Second-temple apocalyptic is the label for the form of Judaism from
which both Essenes and Christians sprang. Essenes relied more heavily
upon Hezekiah and Jeremiah; Christians upon Daniel and Isaiah.
Essenes anticipated a dual messiah, a Davidic king and a Levite high
priest. Christians conflated the two in the epistle to the Hebrews,
linking Jesus to the high priesthood in the tradition of Melchizedek.
Essene initiation took years, Christian conversion was considered
almost instantaneous upon baptism. Paul likened baptism to death and
resurrection in Christ, a simultaneous, mystical indwelling that
created a new creature. For the Essenes, the mikvah merely continued
the Judaic tradition of physical purification practised periodically
instead of once. Essenes were required to give up all their material
wealth to the community. Christians were urged to practise charity but
it wasn't mandatory. The celibate tradition in Christianity wasn't as
mainstream as it was for the Essenes--Timothy puts married men in the
ascendancy even though Jesus and Paul were celibate. But it's true
there are many parallels; the New Jerusalem vision, the final wrathful
Armegeddon, the sacred meal, the Damascus connection. Essene was a
word that meant "healer" and the tradition of ascetic, celibate
healers such as Jesus could have had its root in that uber-pious
group.
crunch
> theologynut <sharonkathleenjohn...@yahoo.com> 07/01/2010 19:12 wrote:
>
> > On Jan 5, 4:57 pm, crunch<pchristain...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On Jan 5, 2:42 pm, theologynut<sharonkathleenjohn...@yahoo.com>
> >> wrote:
>
Please do NOT remove sci.archaeology
crunch
wrote:
>...
> Second-temple apocalyptic is the label for the form of Judaism from
> which both Essenes and Christians sprang. Essenes relied more heavily
> upon Hezekiah and Jeremiah; Christians upon Daniel and Isaiah.
> Essenes anticipated a dual messiah, a Davidic king and a Levite high
> priest. Christians conflated the two in the epistle to the Hebrews,
> linking Jesus to the high priesthood in the tradition of Melchizedek.
> Essene initiation took years, Christian conversion was considered
> almost instantaneous upon baptism. Paul likened baptism to death and
> resurrection in Christ, a simultaneous, mystical indwelling that
> created a new creature. For the Essenes, the mikvah merely continued
> the Judaic tradition of physical purification practised periodically
> instead of once. Essenes were required to give up all their material
> wealth to the community. Christians were urged to practise charity but
> it wasn't mandatory. The celibate tradition in Christianity wasn't as
> mainstream as it was for the Essenes--Timothy puts married men in the
> ascendancy even though Jesus and Paul were celibate. But it's true
> there are many parallels; the New Jerusalem vision, the final wrathful
> Armegeddon, the sacred meal, the Damascus connection. Essene was a
> word that meant "healer" and the tradition of ascetic, celibate
> healers such as Jesus could have had its root in that uber-pious
> group.
Thanks for keeping the discussion going. I add -
From Melchizedek to Enoch, Part 2
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qumran_origin/message/1253
"All of those elements went into the subsequent messianic ideal.
Qumran had arrived at the point of two Messiahs, a superior priestly
one who blessed both the wine and the bread, and a subordinate lay
one, a king, who blessed the bread only. Bread was the lesser of the
two symbolic elements, as it was given to pre-initiates. They could
only receive the wine at full initiation. (1QS 6: 13-23)
The reason why the lay Messiah was subordinate – and could even be
dispensed with, since the priest blessed both bread and wine - came
from the political history of the preceding centuries. Since the
abolition of the monarchy by the Persians, it was illegal to have a
king. It was tolerated that each country of the empire should have its
own religion, with its own high priest, but kings like the Davids had
both a mystique and an army, giving them too much power."
Cormac
kings like the Davids had
> both a mystique and an army, giving them too much power."
>
> David Christainsen
> Newton, Mass. USA
Archaeological evidence suggests that David was the chief of a
pastoral tribe and that Jerusalem at that time was a small village.
Cormac.
Peter Alaca
No, the evidence on sci.archaeology makes very clear
that David is an insane lying troll.
Martin Edwards
>
> Mt 13:14 - And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which
> saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing
> ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
So the author(s) (cf Enoch Powell) of Matthew made up stories about
fulfilment of prophecy and that proves the prophecy. Riiiiiiiiiiiight.
Martin Edwards
what he is doing.
crunch
> Peter Alaca wrote:
> > Cormac <cormac.brada...@gmail.com> 08/01/2010 07:55 wrote:
> >> On Jan 8, 1:32 am, crunch<pchristain...@yahoo.com> wrote
>
> >> kings like the Davids had
> >>> both a mystique and an army, giving them too much power."
>
> >>> David Christainsen
> >>> Newton, Mass. USA
>
> >> Archaeological evidence suggests that David was the chief of a
> >> pastoral tribe and that Jerusalem at that time was a small village.
>
> >> Cormac.
>
> > No, the evidence on sci.archaeology makes very clear
> > that David is an insane lying troll.
>
> I'm not so sure. Maybe he's just insane. A troll, after all, knows
> what he is doing.
Yet, Martin Edwards is completely out-of-context.
I was talking about the time of the "abolition of the
monarchy by the Persians".
Dear Martin, please get your centuries right!
Cormac
> Jesus Christ did not die on the cross; Son of
> God was just a title.
I have news for you. Mohammed reached this conclusion long before
Thiering.
Cormac.
duke
>On Jan 2, 11:03�am, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>> On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 08:42:32 -0800 (PST), crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Jesus Christ did not die on the cross; Son of
>> >God was just a title.
>>
>> Actually, if you knew what you were talking about, Jesus the man died on the
>> cross.
>
>And the archaeological evidence is?
Historical.
The Dukester, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Weland
Fascinating how you keep asking me that every time. The short answer is
yes. Go ahead and ask me to post my credentials again.
JTEM
Weland <gi...@poetic.com> wrote:
> Martin Edwards wrote:
> > Of course you may. I have O Level Latin and
> > can read NT Greek, but so far I am only self
> > taught. Permit me to enquire whether you are
> > qualified in the subjects you mention.
> Fascinating how you keep asking me that every time.
> The short answer is yes.
One of these days you must tell us how you became
qualified with ancient languages (plural) without
yet having accumulated any skills with English...
Weland
Sure, right after you tell us how you are qualified to say anything
about languages you don't know.
JTEM
Weland <gi...@poetic.com> wrote:
> JTEM wrote:
> > One of these days you must tell us how you became
> > qualified with ancient languages (plural) without
> > yet having accumulated any skills with English...
>
> Sure, right after you tell us how you are qualified
> to say anything about languages you don't know.
If you were half as bright as you pretend you are, and
a tenth as skilled with languages, you'd note that you
merely repeated what I just said.
Go on, pretend that you knew that. You'll fool your "Igor,"
even if no one else.
igor
go visit local library sometimes instead of hanging out in gay bars,.
I bet you dont know any other languages but semi limited english,
admit, you type with one finger, wanker.
Matt Giwer
Who told you that crap and why did you believe them?
Do words mean nothing to you?
You claim there is EVIDENCE. Evidence is a word that has a meaning.
Please RECITE this evidence which suggests anything about anyone named David.
Take all the screens you need to hem and haw without giving an answer.
--
Happiness is simple. Do not compare yourself to others.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4205
http://www.giwersworld.org/antisem/ Antisemitism a10
Wed Jan 20 21:33:09 EST 2010