Ancient Pacific islanders overextended their resources
crunch
"Vanuatu's first inhabitants [3000 years ago] probably came from
Taiwan and the Philippines, having travelled thousands of miles by
outrigger canoes equipped with sails and big enough to contain large
families."
"'It is very interesting to observe the consequences of human beings
taking possession over virgin land,' says Ravn.
Over a few centuries, several species went extinct -- the giant
tortoise among them. Traces of mussel shells also bear witness of
excessive consumption. The shells diminish in size as the sediments
get younger. According to Ravn, the inhabitants quite simply
overextended their resources."
The data does not give the exact reason why the
first Pacific seafarers migrated but they may have
had a spirit of adventure.
David Christainsen
VtSkier
Old hat, David.
We've been talking about this and other related things,
especially as it relates to Rapa Nui since the
publication of Jared Diamond's _Collapse_.
crunch
You already know I am aware of Diamond from previous
conversation and take him seriously; so, your comment
here is unnecessary.
Specifically, here the migrants came to virgin land and
rather quickly overextended their resources. This is different
from the Easter Island Collapse but the broad topic of
depleted resources among a range of relevant cultures deserves
investigation.
Would you mind sharing your thoughts along these lines
for our NG when the opportunity presents itself?
Thanks for taking the time for making a short reply here.
David Christainsen
Peter Alaca
The point is not Diamond, but the past discussions.
As long as you have nothing new to present YOUR
comment is is unnecessary
> [...]
> Specifically, here the migrants came to virgin land and
> rather quickly overextended their resources. This is different
> from the Easter Island Collapse but the broad topic of
> depleted resources among a range of relevant cultures deserves
> investigation.
So, invenstigate it.
>
> Would you mind sharing your thoughts along these lines
> for our NG when the opportunity presents itself?
>
> Thanks for taking the time for making a short reply here.
Okay: fuck off
crunch
Your point is without merit. You have rarely discussed
anything worthwhile with me. Your communications,
sterile and idle as they are, should be nailed to the wall
as a warning for others.
> As long as you have nothing new to present YOUR
> comment is is unnecessary.
Rejected as YOUR usual thoughtlessness.
> > [...]
> > Specifically, here the migrants came to virgin land and
> > rather quickly overextended their resources. This is different
> > from the Easter Island Collapse but the broad topic of
> > depleted resources among a range of relevant cultures deserves
> > investigation.
>
> So, invenstigate it.
Rejected as YOUR worthless advice.
> > Would you mind sharing your thoughts along these lines
> > for our NG when the opportunity presents itself?
>
> > Thanks for taking the time for making a short reply here.
>
> Okay: fuck off
Not OK; your standard idiotic closer. When you
are ready to grow up, Kid, let me know.
BTW try jet-skiing at St. Martin's; I recently did.
David Christainsen
Peter Alaca
You never discuss anything.
> Your communications,
> sterile and idle as they are, should be nailed to the wall
> as a warning for others.
>
>> As long as you have nothing new to present YOUR
>> comment is is unnecessary.
>
> Rejected as YOUR usual thoughtlessness.
>
>>> [...]
>>> Specifically, here the migrants came to virgin land and
>>> rather quickly overextended their resources. This is different
>>> from the Easter Island Collapse but the broad topic of
>>> depleted resources among a range of relevant cultures deserves
>>> investigation.
>> So, invenstigate it.
>
> Rejected as YOUR worthless advice.
>
>>> Would you mind sharing your thoughts along these lines
>>> for our NG when the opportunity presents itself?
>>> Thanks for taking the time for making a short reply here.
>> Okay: fuck off
> Not OK; your standard idiotic closer. When you
> are ready to grow up, Kid, let me know.
>
> BTW try jet-skiing at St. Martin's; I recently did.
Next time drop dead.
Jack Linthicum
Got a good reason why you came back?
crunch
wrote:
The challenge to behave as a gentleman against
adversity...
Vanuatu's first inhabitants you cannot discuss as
a specific topic because you lack the proper attitude
to learn something new. Same for Peter Alaca.
To repeat - in this thread I wasn't talking about Jared Diamond,
was I?
David Christainsen
crunch
> crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> 14/12/2009 21:10 wrote:
>...
> You never discuss anything.
Who were the first Mehrgarhans? Remember?
In that discussion you failed to examine my evidence.
Your bad.
>...
> Next time drop dead.
You are so childish; grow up.
-----
Even Ross Clark will say Thor Heyerdahl had a real
spirit of adventure. But, Ross Clark is right about
Easter Island and Heyerdahl, who called himself
an anthropologist, not an archaeologist, was not.
David Christainsen
Peter Alaca
("Crunch", unsolicited earlier in this thread)
crunch
> crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> 14/12/2009 22:14 wrote:
>...
> > On Dec 14, 3:23 pm, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net>
> > wrote:
> >> On Dec 14, 3:10 pm, crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>> On Dec 14, 1:35 pm, Peter Alaca <p.al...@invallid.invalid> wrote:
> >>>> crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> 14/12/2009 18:33 wrote:
> >>>>> On Dec 14, 12:12 pm, VtSkier <vtsk...@somewhere.net> wrote:
> >>>>>> crunch wrote:
> >>>>>> Old hat, David.
> >>>>>> We've been talking about this and other related things,
> >>>>>> especially as it relates to Rapa Nui since the
> >>>>>> publication of Jared Diamond's _Collapse_.
> >>>>> You already know I am aware of Diamond from previous
> >>>>> conversation and take him seriously; so, your comment
> >>>>> here is unnecessary.
> "You already know I am aware of Diamond from previous
> conversation and take him seriously; so, your comment
> here is unnecessary."
> ("Crunch", unsolicited earlier in this thread)
This is a perfect example of misinformation you often put out
about me; your bad.
You also missed the intellectual problem of figuring out WHY, from
the incomplete archaeological data or as an inspired guess,
Vanuatu's first inhabitants overextended their resources in the
first few centuries. I strongly suspect you did not even bother
to read the link I gave since irritation is your game.
Hopefully, others will take in my reaction here and point out
your folly to you.
David Christainsen
Peter Alaca
>> crunch <pchris...@yahoo.com> 14/12/2009 22:14 wrote:
>>> On Dec 14, 3:23 pm, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Dec 14, 3:10 pm, crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Dec 14, 1:35 pm, Peter Alaca <p.al...@invallid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> 14/12/2009 18:33 wrote:
>>>>>>> On Dec 14, 12:12 pm, VtSkier <vtsk...@somewhere.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> crunch wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Vanuatu's first inhabitants [3000 years ago] probably came from
>>>>>>>>> Taiwan and the Philippines, having travelled thousands of miles by
>>>>>>>>> outrigger canoes equipped with sails and big enough to contain large
>>>>>>>>> families."
>>>>>>>>> "'It is very interesting to observe the consequences of human beings
>>>>>>>>> taking possession over virgin land,' says Ravn.
>>>>>>>>> Over a few centuries, several species went extinct -- the giant
>>>>>>>>> tortoise among them. Traces of mussel shells also bear witness of
>>>>>>>>> excessive consumption. The shells diminish in size as the sediments
>>>>>>>>> get younger. According to Ravn, the inhabitants quite simply
>>>>>>>>> overextended their resources."
>>>>>>>>> The data does not give the exact reason why the
>>>>>>>>> first Pacific seafarers migrated but they may have
>>>>>>>>> had a spirit of adventure.
>>>>>>>> Old hat, David.
>>>>>>>> We've been talking about this and other related things,
>>>>>>>> especially as it relates to Rapa Nui since the
>>>>>>>> publication of Jared Diamond's _Collapse_.
>>>>>>> You already know I am aware of Diamond from previous
>>>>>>> conversation and take him seriously; so, your comment
>>>>>>> here is unnecessary.
>>>>>> The point is not Diamond, but the past discussions.
>>>>>> So, invenstigate it.
>>>>>> Okay: fuck off
>> "You already know I am aware of Diamond from previous
>> conversation and take him seriously; so, your comment
>> here is unnecessary."
>> ("Crunch", unsolicited earlier in this thread)
> This is a perfect example of misinformation you often put out
> about me; your bad.
A perfect example of your pathological lying and deceptive
snipping. Everybody can read what you wrote eight messages
higher up in this tread. I restored your snips.
> You also missed the intellectual problem of figuring out WHY, from
> the incomplete archaeological data or as an inspired guess,
> Vanuatu's first inhabitants overextended their resources in the
> first few centuries. I strongly suspect you did not even bother
> to read the link I gave since irritation is your game.
>
> Hopefully, others will take in my reaction here and point out
> your folly to you.
Look in the mirror, Carl, and keep lying to yourself
about your state of mind.
crunch
> Peter Alaca <p.al...@invallid.invalid> 14/12/2009 22:59 wrote:
Your bad is clear for all to see.
> > You also missed the intellectual problem of figuring out WHY, from
> > the incomplete archaeological data or as an inspired guess,
> > Vanuatu's first inhabitants overextended their resources in the
> > first few centuries. I strongly suspect you did not even bother
> > to read the link I gave since irritation is your game.
>
> > Hopefully, others will take in my reaction here and point out
> > your folly to you.
>
> Look in the mirror, Carl, and keep lying to yourself
> about your state of mind.
No; instead, the focus is on you. I pity you; take that.
I forgive you; too much for you to bear?
David Christainsen
benl...@ihug.co.nz
Ravn, whose institution is apparently doing "digital documentation" of
the Teouma site, fires off a number of personal interpretations of the
evidence from this site. I'm not sure exactly what it is you want to
discuss. If it is whether Pacific islanders "overextended their
resources", i.e. ate certain things to the point of extinction or
depletion, well, yeah, we knew that. To take one other example,
Steadman's studies of bird extinctions on various Pacific islands
consequent upon human arrival have been mentioned here more than
once.
Ross Clark
crunch
>
> - Show quoted text -
Curiosity drives me to know more about Vanuatu's first
inhabitants. Since they supplemented their diet with
plants and ate marine life to extinction, they must have
been poor agriculturalists. I ask - is that the reason why
they overextended their resources?
I admit to a degree of frustration because, after diligent
Internet Search re: Ravn and the Teouma site or even
just the Teouma site, I came up with very little data.
BTW I don't mind Ravn's personal interpretations. I can
screen and filter but any good scientist must have good
data as a basis.
So, maybe the data is next to unobtainable. Still, I am
curious as to why they undertook their long migration
and how successfully they adapted to their environment
of virgin land. One would think it should have been paradise.
David Christainsen
benl...@ihug.co.nz
Please try to clarify your reasoning here.
I ask - is that the reason why
> they overextended their resources?
I don't think any special explanation is required for what you call
"overextending their resources". People do it all the time.
>
> I admit to a degree of frustration because, after diligent
> Internet Search re: Ravn and the Teouma site or even
> just the Teouma site, I came up with very little data.
Lots of stuff has already been written about the Teouma site.
> BTW I don't mind Ravn's personal interpretations. I can
> screen and filter but any good scientist must have good
> data as a basis.
>
> So, maybe the data is next to unobtainable. Still, I am
> curious as to why they undertook their long migration
> and how successfully they adapted to their environment
> of virgin land. One would think it should have been paradise.
Why would you think that? Try to rid your mind of the pseudo-concept
"paradise", surely one of the most brutally overworked journalistic
cliches of our time.
BTW it looks as if you need a large amount of background filled in
here. The people at Teouma are not some mysterious newly-discovered
people who came all the way from SEAsia to Vanuatu in their canoes for
some strange reason. They are simply part of the broad human expansion
into Remote Oceania during the later 2nd millennium BCE. You will have
more success if you google "Lapita".
Ross Clark
crunch
>...
> Please try to clarify your reasoning here.
It was just a guess.
> I ask - is that the reason why
>
> > they overextended their resources?
>
> I don't think any special explanation is required for what you call
> "overextending their resources". People do it all the time.
Yet, without enough data we don't know.
> > I admit to a degree of frustration because, after diligent
> > Internet Search re: Ravn and the Teouma site or even
> > just the Teouma site, I came up with very little data.
>
> Lots of stuff has already been written about the Teouma site.
Good to know.
> > BTW I don't mind Ravn's personal interpretations. I can
> > screen and filter but any good scientist must have good
> > data as a basis.
>
> > So, maybe the data is next to unobtainable. Still, I am
> > curious as to why they undertook their long migration
> > and how successfully they adapted to their environment
> > of virgin land. One would think it should have been paradise.
>
> Why would you think that? Try to rid your mind of the pseudo-concept
> "paradise", surely one of the most brutally overworked journalistic
> cliches of our time.
Well, that was my artistic mind and I just came
back from a Carribean trip.
> BTW it looks as if you need a large amount of background filled in
> here. The people at Teouma are not some mysterious newly-discovered
> people who came all the way from SEAsia to Vanuatu in their canoes for
> some strange reason. They are simply part of the broad human expansion
> into Remote Oceania during the later 2nd millennium BCE. You will have
> more success if you google "Lapita".
>
> Ross Clark- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I believe the original link article set me off on the wrong
tangent because of its distortions.
Thanks for your heads-up; I plan to follow thru. Thanks
for your polite and informative reply.
David Christainsen
VtSkier
Like all humans, they were oportunists. They ate whatever
was easiest. Birds and other animals who have never seen
humans are easy to catch and eat. They were fine
subsistence farmers (agriculturalist is too much of
an industrial term to use for these and other early
farmers), they must have been, the survived eating
everything the in their ecosystem that was easy.
You must look at the rest of Polynesia to see that
the situation was not unique. What is unique is where
islanders make a conscious decision to limit the
types of foods they eat to that which is economical
to grow (pigs for example are not economical) and to
consciously limit their population so that they don't
kill their environment.
See Diamond again, _Collapse_, the chapter on Tikopia.
Elijahovah
> Rejected as YOUR worthless advice.
> > Okay: fuck off
crunch
>...
> Like all humans, they were oportunists. They ate whatever
> was easiest. Birds and other animals who have never seen
> humans are easy to catch and eat. They were fine
> subsistence farmers (agriculturalist is too much of
> an industrial term to use for these and other early
> farmers), they must have been, the survived eating
> everything the in their ecosystem that was easy.
>
> You must look at the rest of Polynesia to see that
> the situation was not unique. What is unique is where
> islanders make a conscious decision to limit the
> types of foods they eat to that which is economical
> to grow (pigs for example are not economical) and to
> consciously limit their population so that they don't
> kill their environment.
> See Diamond again, _Collapse_, the chapter on Tikopia.
I have a full plate of work to do after reading the polite and
informative replies of Ross Clark and VtSkier.
David Christainsen
Sir David
lap:
> I have a full plate of work to do after reading the polite and
> informative replies of Ross Clark and VtSkier.
By work, you mean elementary Google searches, followed by large blocks
of text cut-n-pasted, followed by petulant demands that someone else
explain it to you.
> Carl "call me Crunchy" Crunchystain
crunch
Don't ever tell me what I mean again and I mean
what I write.
Call yourself cheap usenet trash - completely worthless
for archaeological discussion. This is sci.archaeology.
Peter Alaca
> On Dec 18, 8:50 am, Sir David <sirda...@mailinator.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 17, 2:02 pm, Crunchy <pchristain...@yahoo.com> drooled on his
>> lap:
>>
>>> I have a full plate of work to do after reading the polite and
>>> informative replies of Ross Clark and VtSkier.
>> By work, you mean elementary Google searches, followed by large blocks
>> of text cut-n-pasted, followed by petulant demands that someone else
>> explain it to you.
>>
>> > Carl "call me Crunchy" Crunchystain
>
> Don't ever tell me what I mean again and I mean
> what I write.
Bwahahahahahaha!
> Call yourself cheap usenet trash - completely worthless
> for archaeological discussion. This is sci.archaeology.
So fuck off
crunch
> crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> 18/12/2009 17:25 wrote:
>
> > On Dec 18, 8:50 am, Sir David <sirda...@mailinator.com> wrote:
> >> On Dec 17, 2:02 pm, Crunchy <pchristain...@yahoo.com> drooled on his
> >> lap:
>
> >>> I have a full plate of work to do after reading the polite and
> >>> informative replies of Ross Clark and VtSkier.
> >> By work, you mean elementary Google searches, followed by large blocks
> >> of text cut-n-pasted, followed by petulant demands that someone else
> >> explain it to you.
>
> >> > Carl "call me Crunchy" Crunchystain
>
> > Don't ever tell me what I mean again and I mean
> > what I write.
>
> Bwahahahahahaha!
Are you a two-year old masquerading as a man?
> > Call yourself cheap usenet trash - completely worthless
> > for archaeological discussion. This is sci.archaeology.
>
> So fuck off
Why can't you be more like Ross Clark, Mr. Archaeology?
So, examine his post on Heyerdahl and pick up a few pointers
as to what constitutes a polite and informative SA contribution.
You sure could use those pointers!
-----
I would love it for you to get on Sir David's case for wasting
the time of the entire SA community to a fare-thee-well by
singling me out for really stupid and counter-productive mockery.
David Christainsen