Links to Ecological Gatekeeper Hypothesis

[Claudius Denk]

predatory sieges

http://goo.gl/Dfqjt

http://goo.gl/nN7nT

feeding frenzies

http://goo.gl/eP38U

http://goo.gl/YFxdI

late miocene east africa

http://goo.gl/am6KL

http://goo.gl/EpvGv

8.1 mya

http://goo.gl/Bj86a

http://goo.gl/BvvGU

monsoon climate

http://goo.gl/0xohz

http://goo.gl/0B670

patfchification

http://goo.gl/aQTN1

http://goo.gl/x2e2J

treed localities

http://goo.gl/siIau

http://goo.gl/9KqRh

treeless habitat

http://goo.gl/fw0ib

http://goo.gl/nTiQS

social predators

http://goo.gl/WvD8M

http://goo.gl/eZ2OZ

stationary existence

http://goo.gl/oy0vX

http://goo.gl/B8zNL

depths of the dry season

http://goo.gl/jtKqF

http://goo.gl/45ELU

feeding frenzy

http://goo.gl/IBZyh

http://goo.gl/wnqwM

massacre

http://goo.gl/Soj1Y

http://goo.gl/RAV2K

local extinction

http://goo.gl/QsLbu

http://goo.gl/XHqNL

community of Apith

http://goo.gl/uE4Bp

http://goo.gl/krcI0

throwing rocks and wielding sticks

http://goo.gl/PECNr

http://goo.gl/68t57

[Lee Olsen]

On Jan 30, 6:49 am, Claudius Denk <claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> predatory sieges

Message-ID: <a6fc2a3b-6d14-4244-8a1e-
ee59b8...@h12g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>
McGinn (alias C. Denk): "Seasonal migration would
have been absolutely impossible for the earliest
hominids--A'pith."

Since A'piths ranged from Hadar to South Africa
and our tree-dependent cousins, chimps/gorillas,
did not it is impossible to falsify the
possibility A'piths migrated to South Africa on
the grasslands.
The evidence at Laetoli shows the tracks were made
on a migration trail and the isotopes of their teeth
show they were eating C4 (savanna) grass or eating
something that was eating C4 grass (like the migrating
fauna who made the trails in the first place).

Message-ID: <a6fc2a3b-6d14-4244-8a1e-
ee59b8...@h12g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>
McGinn (alias C. Denk): "They were completely
dependent on trees to evade predators."

Predators defined by McGinn as being:
http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=53654
"lions, tigers, hyenas, dogs, etc."

The claim of lions and tigers 7 mya can be construed as
nothing less than falsifying data.

One might evade a dog by climing a tree, but since
lions or tigers had not evolved 7 mya, and the ancestors
of panthera could climb trees, one can be sure A'piths were
not tree dependent anymore than baboons are today,
even though baboons can climb trees, they do just
fine on the grasslands also.

Jan 23, 7:19 am
McGinn (alias C. Denk): "My hypothesis describes a shift
to pest control agricultrure, communal territorialism as
a strategy to survive the dry season and its dramatic
predatory implications."

Since the evidence at Laetoli clearly shows hominids were not
present during the dry season, there were no communities of
hominids left to shift to territorialism at that location.

Without a permanent source of water (and a dry season lasting
most of the year) it would be impossible for year-round
garden-like occupation for hominids at Laetoli, territorial,
communal,
or otherwise.

"Thus, the balance of evidence suggests that the Laetoli
paleoenvironment was predominantly open woodland, with
significant portions of open bushland, shrubland,
and grassland (Su and Harrison 2008:7)."

"Reconstructed depositional environments and the absence of
aquatic elements in the fauna and flora at Laetoli indicate that there
were no permanent rivers or lakes. Water sources were apparently
restricted to springs and small seasonal rivers, streams, and ponds
(Hay, 1981, 1987; Harris, 1987; Bonnevlle and Riollet, 1987:8)."

Denise F. Su, Terry Harrison
Ecological implications of the relative rarity of fossil hominins at
Laetoli
Journal of Human Evolution 55 (2008) 672–681

[JTEM]

Lee Olsen <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Message-ID: <a6fc2a3b-6d14-4244-8a1e-
> ee59b8141...@h12g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>
> McGinn (alias C. Denk):

"Bolide Forcing"
"Lip Service"
"Molecular Clock"
"Out of Africa"

Just a tiny sampling of the things your twisted
mind doesn't understand....

[Claudius Denk]

On Jan 30, 9:16 am, Lee Olsen <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 30, 6:49 am, Claudius Denk <claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > predatory sieges
>
> Message-ID: <a6fc2a3b-6d14-4244-8a1e-

> ee59b8141...@h12g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>

> McGinn (alias C. Denk): "Seasonal migration would
> have been absolutely impossible for the earliest
> hominids--A'pith."

You failed to address any of the arguments I made that underlie this
assertion: bipedalism not being good for migration, necessity of
proximity to trees to evade predators, predator infested treeless
habitat surrounding the treed, garden-like, communal site, etc.

> Since A'piths ranged from Hadar to South Africa
> and our tree-dependent cousins, chimps/gorillas,
> did not it is impossible to falsify the
> possibility A'piths migrated to South Africa on
> the grasslands.

That's a pretty dumb argument. Some species of trees are wide
ranging. Certainly you wouldn't suggest that they are seasonally
migrational.

> The evidence at Laetoli shows the tracks were made
> on a migration trail

Reference?

> and the isotopes of their teeth
> show they were eating C4 (savanna) grass or eating
> something that was eating C4 grass (like the migrating
> fauna who made the trails in the first place).

Yeah, so?

> Message-ID: <a6fc2a3b-6d14-4244-8a1e-
> ee59b8141...@h12g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>

> McGinn (alias C. Denk): "They were completely
> dependent on trees to evade predators."
>
> Predators defined by McGinn as being:http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=53654
>  "lions, tigers, hyenas, dogs, etc."
>
> The claim of lions and tigers 7 mya can be construed as
> nothing less than  falsifying data.
>
> One might evade a dog by climing a tree, but since
> lions or tigers had not evolved 7 mya, and the ancestors
> of panthera could climb trees, one can be sure A'piths were
> not tree dependent anymore than baboons are today,
> even though baboons can climb trees, they do just
> fine on the grasslands also.
>
>  Jan 23, 7:19 am
> McGinn (alias C. Denk): "My hypothesis describes a shift
> to pest control agricultrure, communal territorialism as
> a strategy to survive the dry season and its dramatic
> predatory implications."
>
>  Since the evidence at Laetoli clearly shows hominids were not
> present during the dry season,

Reference?

> there were no communities of
> hominids left to shift to territorialism at that location.
>
> Without a permanent source of water

Evidence? Reference?

> (and a dry season lasting
> most of the year) it would be impossible for year-round
> garden-like occupation for hominids at Laetoli, territorial,
> communal,
> or otherwise.
>
> "Thus, the balance of evidence suggests that the Laetoli
> paleoenvironment was predominantly open woodland, with
> significant portions of open bushland, shrubland,
> and grassland (Su and Harrison 2008:7)."
>
> "Reconstructed depositional environments and the absence of
> aquatic elements in the fauna and flora at Laetoli indicate that there
> were no permanent rivers or lakes. Water sources were apparently
> restricted to springs and small seasonal rivers, streams, and ponds
> (Hay, 1981, 1987; Harris, 1987; Bonnevlle and Riollet, 1987:8)."

Is this not consistent with garden habitat?

[Lee Olsen]

On Jan 31, 6:34 pm, Claudius Denk <claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Jan 30, 9:16 am, Lee Olsen <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 30, 6:49 am, Claudius Denk <claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > > predatory sieges
>
> > Message-ID: <a6fc2a3b-6d14-4244-8a1e-
> > ee59b8141...@h12g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>
> > McGinn (alias C. Denk): "Seasonal migration would
> > have been absolutely impossible for the earliest
> > hominids--A'pith."
>

> You failed to address any of the arguments I made ...

Fantasy-based arguments aren't evidence, so they are not worth
addressing.
Try getting your lions and tigers straight first. Then we can talk.

Now here is real threat to garden-like plots and please notice the
habitat and the fact their ancestors were at Laetoli:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerus_(subgenus)

"The Unstriped Ground Squirrel (Xerus rutilus) is a species of rodent
in the Sciuridae family. It is found in Djibouti, Eritrea, Ethiopia,
Kenya, Somalia, Sudan, Tanzania, and Uganda. Its natural habitats are
dry savanna and subtropical or tropical dry shrubland."

Odd you didn't mention these crop-killer pests in your scenario. Must
have been a problem for your tree-dependent gatekeepers to keep them
out of the garden-like plots at night.

[...]


Message-ID: <a6fc2a3b-6d14-4244-8a1e-
ee59b8...@h12g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>

McGinn (alias C. Denk): "Seasonal migration would
have been absolutely impossible for the earliest
hominids--A'pith."

Since A'piths ranged from Hadar to South Africa
and our tree-dependent cousins, chimps/gorillas,

do not it is impossible to falsify the

possibility A'piths migrated to South Africa on
the grasslands.

The evidence at Laetoli shows the tracks were made

on a migration trail and the isotopes of their teeth

show they were eating C4 (savanna) grass or eating

something that was eating C4 grass.


Message-ID: <a6fc2a3b-6d14-4244-8a1e-
ee59b8...@h12g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>

McGinn (alias C. Denk): "They were completely
dependent on trees to evade predators."

Predators defined by McGinn as being:
http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=53654
"lions, tigers, hyenas, dogs, etc."

One might evade a dog by climing a tree, but since
lions or tigers had not evolved 7 mya, and the ancestors
of panthera could climb trees, one can be sure A'piths were
not tree dependent anymore than baboons are today,

even though baboons can climb trees also.

The claim of lions and tigers 7 mya can be construed as
nothing less than falsifying data.

Jan 23, 7:19 am
McGinn (alias C. Denk): "My hypothesis describes a shift
to pest control agricultrure, communal territorialism as
a strategy to survive the dry season and its dramatic
predatory implications."

Since the evidence at Laetoli clearly shows hominids were not

present during the dry season, there were no communities of

hominids left to shift to territorialism at that location.

Without a permanent source of water (and a dry season lasting

most of the year) it would be impossible for year-round

occupation for hominids at Laetoli, territorial, communal, or
otherwise.

"Thus, the balance of evidence suggests that the Laetoli
paleoenvironment was predominantly open woodland, with
significant portions of open bushland, shrubland,
and grassland (Su and Harrison 2008:7)."


"Reconstructed depositional environments and the absence of
aquatic elements in the fauna and flora at Laetoli indicate that there
were no permanent rivers or lakes. Water sources were apparently
restricted to springs and small seasonal rivers, streams, and ponds
(Hay, 1981, 1987; Harris, 1987; Bonnevlle and Riollet, 1987:8)."

[Claudius Denk]

On Jan 30, 9:16 am, Lee Olsen <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On Jan 30, 6:49 am, Claudius Denk <claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> . . . isotopes of their teeth

> show they were eating C4 (savanna) grass or eating
> something that was eating C4 grass

Are you saying that C4 grasses don't (or didn't) grow in garden
habitat? If not then what does this comment have to do with my
hypothesis? And where is your evidence?

[Claudius Denk]

On Jan 30, 9:16 am, Lee Olsen <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On Jan 30, 6:49 am, Claudius Denk <claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> One might evade a dog by climing a tree, but since
> lions or tigers had not evolved 7 mya, and the ancestors
> of panthera could climb trees, one can be sure A'piths were
> not tree dependent anymore than baboons are today,
> even though baboons can climb trees, they do just
> fine on the grasslands also.

Baboons are quadrupedal.

> McGinn (alias C. Denk): "My hypothesis describes a shift
> to pest control agricultrure, communal territorialism as
> a strategy to survive the dry season and its dramatic
> predatory implications."

The necessity of vigilance and social cooperation in opposing
inmigrating food competitors allows my hypothesis to explain the
selective origins of consciousness, something that no other hypothesis
on hominid origins even comes close to being able to do.

>  Since the evidence at Laetoli clearly shows hominids were not
> present during the dry season,

It's regrettable you can't provide us access to your imagination so
that we could confirm that assertion.

> there were no communities of
> hominids left to shift to territorialism at that location.
>
> Without a permanent source of water (and a dry season lasting
> most of the year) it would be impossible for year-round
> garden-like occupation for hominids at Laetoli, territorial,
> communal,
> or otherwise.

Evidence?

> "Thus, the balance of evidence suggests that the Laetoli
> paleoenvironment was predominantly open woodland, with
> significant portions of open bushland, shrubland,
> and grassland (Su and Harrison 2008:7)."
>
> "Reconstructed depositional environments and the absence of
> aquatic elements in the fauna and flora at Laetoli indicate that there
> were no permanent rivers or lakes. Water sources were apparently
> restricted to springs and small seasonal rivers, streams, and ponds
> (Hay, 1981, 1987; Harris, 1987; Bonnevlle and Riollet, 1987:8)."

Garden habitat.

[Lee Olsen]

On Feb 1, 2:10 am, Claudius Denk <claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Jan 30, 9:16 am, Lee Olsen <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 30, 6:49 am, Claudius Denk <claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > One might evade a dog by climing a tree, but since
> > lions or tigers had not evolved 7 mya, and the ancestors
> > of panthera could climb trees, one can be sure A'piths were
> > not tree dependent anymore than baboons are today,
> > even though baboons can climb trees, they do just
> > fine on the grasslands also.
>
> Baboons are quadrupedal.

So they can't climb trees or get more than 50 to 100 yards from the
safety of them?

Certainly if your scenario explains the origins of bipedalism, the
last LCA must have been something else not bipedal or the origin
wouldn't need explaining. Right?

>
> > McGinn (alias C. Denk): "My hypothesis describes a shift
> > to pest control agricultrure, communal territorialism as
> > a strategy to survive the dry season and its dramatic
> > predatory implications."
>
> The necessity of vigilance

Throwing sticks and rocks at night from the safety of trees? Get
real.

> and social cooperation in opposing
> inmigrating food competitors allows my hypothesis to explain the
> selective origins of consciousness, something that no other hypothesis
> on hominid origins even comes close to being able to do.

It's regrettable you can't provide us access to your imagination so
that we could confirm that assertion.

>
> >  Since the evidence at Laetoli clearly shows hominids were not
> > present during the dry season,
>
> It's regrettable you can't provide us access to your imagination so
> that we could confirm that assertion.

It's regrettable you can't read. But again for the illterate or
senile: Su and Harrison 2008, Hay and Leakey 1982.

>
> > there were no communities of
> > hominids left to shift to territorialism at that location.
>
> > Without a permanent source of water (and a dry season lasting
> > most of the year) it would be impossible for year-round
> > garden-like occupation for hominids at Laetoli, territorial,
> > communal,
> > or otherwise.
>
> Evidence?

Reference given. Are you senile? Or do you think ingnoring references
in this thread and previos threads multiple times means you get new
strikes? Try to stay awake in class.

>
> > "Thus, the balance of evidence suggests that the Laetoli
> > paleoenvironment was predominantly open woodland, with
> > significant portions of open bushland, shrubland,
> > and grassland (Su and Harrison 2008:7)."
>
> > "Reconstructed depositional environments and the absence of
> > aquatic elements in the fauna and flora at Laetoli indicate that there
> > were no permanent rivers or lakes. Water sources were apparently
> > restricted to springs and small seasonal rivers, streams, and ponds
> > (Hay, 1981, 1987; Harris, 1987; Bonnevlle and Riollet, 1987:8)."
>
> Garden habitat.

Evidence? References? There are no garden habitats mentioned in Su
and Harrison 2008 or in Hay and Leakey 1982.

The "Garden habitat" is a figment of your imagination, simply name
dropping on your part. Not very scientific I'm afraid. Of course you
could provide a reference that mentions garden habitat if such a
reference existed.

Now Hadar did have evidence for rivers and swamps year-round and was
somewhat wetter than Laetoli, but Hadar would not explain the reason
for A'pith presents in the garden-free habitat at Laetoli as required
by your scenario.

Of course if they were migratory, that would obviously better explain
A'pith absence during the dry season (which was most of the year at
Laetoli).

[Claudius Denk]

On Feb 1, 3:45 am, Lee Olsen <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 1, 2:10 am, Claudius Denk <claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 30, 9:16 am, Lee Olsen <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 30, 6:49 am, Claudius Denk <claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > > One might evade a dog by climing a tree, but since
> > > lions or tigers had not evolved 7 mya, and the ancestors
> > > of panthera could climb trees, one can be sure A'piths were
> > > not tree dependent anymore than baboons are today,
> > > even though baboons can climb trees, they do just
> > > fine on the grasslands also.
>
> > Baboons are quadrupedal.
>
> So they can't climb trees or get more than 50 to 100 yards from the
> safety of them?

?

> Certainly if your scenario explains the origins of bipedalism, the
> last LCA must have been something else not bipedal or the origin
> wouldn't need explaining. Right?

Well, by golly, Lee, you are absolutely right. My guess is that they
were quadrupedal knuckle-walkers, like extant chimps/apes.

> > > McGinn (alias C. Denk): "My hypothesis describes a shift
> > > to pest control agricultrure, communal territorialism as
> > > a strategy to survive the dry season and its dramatic
> > > predatory implications."
>
> > The necessity of vigilance
>
>  Throwing sticks and rocks at night from the safety of trees? Get
> real.
>
> > and social cooperation in opposing
> > inmigrating food competitors allows my hypothesis to explain the
> > selective origins of consciousness, something that no other hypothesis
> > on hominid origins even comes close to being able to do.
>
>  It's regrettable you can't provide us access to your imagination so
>  that we could confirm that assertion.

You have no explanation for the origins of consciousness, do you? Nor
do you have an explanation for the origins of the more deliberate
forms of agriculture (farming etc.) which require the existence of
consciousness and social cooperation as a prerequisite. You indicate
no shift in social group size or social structure much different from
that of extant chimps. Nor do you indicate any difference in
lifestyle different from chimps. So you have nothing that indicates a
shift in SELECTIVE FACTORS different from chimps. You just tack on
this notion that they start using tools, which itself is silly in that
evidence of tool usage doesn't show up until millions of years after
hominid evolution was already in effect. In short, you got nothing.

> > >  Since the evidence at Laetoli clearly shows hominids were not
> > > present during the dry season,
>
> > It's regrettable you can't provide us access to your imagination so
> > that we could confirm that assertion.
>
> It's regrettable you can't read. But again for the illterate or
> senile:  Su and Harrison 2008, Hay and Leakey 1982.

Do you think it's not obvious that if you actually had a quote that
supported this assertion then you would just provide it and you would
not require you audience to assume your creative reading skills.

> > > there were no communities of
> > > hominids left to shift to territorialism at that location.
>
> > > Without a permanent source of water (and a dry season lasting
> > > most of the year) it would be impossible for year-round
> > > garden-like occupation for hominids at Laetoli, territorial,
> > > communal,
> > > or otherwise.
>
> > Evidence?
>
> Reference given. Are you senile? Or do you think ingnoring references
> in this thread and previos threads multiple times means you get new
> strikes? Try to stay awake in class.

I read your references. They just don't support your claims. In
fact, in one you indicate that there were springs and streams in the
vicinity which is exactly what we'd expect from garden habitat.
Moreover, Laetoli is in the vicinity of a volcanoe. Volcanoes tend to
be mountainous and mountains tend to get rained on or snowed on a lot
and, therefore, they are sources of streams or rivers.

> > > "Thus, the balance of evidence suggests that the Laetoli
> > > paleoenvironment was predominantly open woodland, with
> > > significant portions of open bushland, shrubland,
> > > and grassland (Su and Harrison 2008:7)."
>
> > > "Reconstructed depositional environments and the absence of
> > > aquatic elements in the fauna and flora at Laetoli indicate that there
> > > were no permanent rivers or lakes. Water sources were apparently
> > > restricted to springs and small seasonal rivers, streams, and ponds
> > > (Hay, 1981, 1987; Harris, 1987; Bonnevlle and Riollet, 1987:8)."
>
> > Garden habitat.
>
> Evidence? References? There are no garden habitats mentioned in  Su
> and Harrison 2008 or in Hay and Leakey 1982.

Actually, there is evidence of garden habitat in these references.

> The "Garden habitat" is a figment of your imagination, simply name
> dropping on your part. Not very scientific I'm afraid. Of course you
> could provide a reference that mentions garden habitat if such a
> reference existed.

The references you provided confirm the existence of garden habitat.

> Now Hadar did have evidence for rivers and swamps year-round and was
> somewhat wetter than Laetoli, but Hadar would not explain the reason
> for A'pith presents in the garden-free habitat at Laetoli as required
> by your scenario.

Why not?

> Of course if they were migratory, that would obviously better explain
> A'pith absence during the dry season (which was most of the year at
> Laetoli).

We have no evidence of their absence at all times of the year at
Laetoli. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

[Lee Olsen]

So you didn't read very well.

>  They just don't support your claims.

Yes they do.

> In
> fact, in one you indicate that there were springs

.....in the margins. Try to read for comprhension

> and streams

Nice try at bait and switch. They didn't say streams. They said
"ephemeral" which means "dry" most of the year, a point which you
managed to leave out of your reply. This is not consistent with
gardens, except possibly during the short wet season.
I think I see your problem now, you simply can't read.

(snip rest of reply until you can learn to read for comprehension)

[Claudius Denk]

On Feb 3, 3:52 pm, Lee Olsen <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 1, 8:54 am, Claudius Denk <claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> > > > > One might evade a dog by climing a tree, but since
> > > > > lions or tigers had not evolved 7 mya, and the ancestors
> > > > > of panthera could climb trees, one can be sure A'piths were
> > > > > not tree dependent anymore than baboons are today,
> > > > > even though baboons can climb trees, they do just
> > > > > fine on the grasslands also.
>
> > > > Baboons are quadrupedal.
>
> > > So they can't climb trees or get more than 50 to 100 yards from the
> > > safety of them?
>
> > ?

Your point?

> > > Certainly if your scenario explains the origins of bipedalism, the
> > > last LCA must have been something else not bipedal or the origin
> > > wouldn't need explaining. Right?
>
> > Well, by golly, Lee, you are absolutely right.  My guess is that they
> > were quadrupedal knuckle-walkers, like extant chimps/apes.
>
> > > > > McGinn (alias C. Denk): "My hypothesis describes a shift
> > > > > to pest control agricultrure, communal territorialism as
> > > > > a strategy to survive the dry season and its dramatic
> > > > > predatory implications."
>
> > > > The necessity of vigilance
>
> > >  Throwing sticks and rocks at night from the safety of trees? Get
> > > real.
>
> > > > and social cooperation in opposing
> > > > inmigrating food competitors allows my hypothesis to explain the
> > > > selective origins of consciousness, something that no other hypothesis
> > > > on hominid origins even comes close to being able to do.
>
> > >  It's regrettable you can't provide us access to your imagination so
> > >  that we could confirm that assertion.
>
> > You have no explanation for the origins of consciousness, do you?

No response.

> > Nor
> > do you have an explanation for the origins of the more deliberate
> > forms of agriculture (farming etc.) which require the existence of
> > consciousness and social cooperation as a prerequisite.

No response.

> > You indicate
> > no shift in social group size or social structure much different from
> > that of extant chimps.  Nor do you indicate any difference in
> > lifestyle different from chimps.  So you have nothing that indicates a
> > shift in SELECTIVE FACTORS different from chimps.  You just tack on
> > this notion that they start using tools, which itself is silly in that
> > evidence of tool usage doesn't show up until millions of years after
> > hominid evolution was already in effect.  In short, you got nothing.

No response.

> > > > >  Since the evidence at Laetoli clearly shows hominids were not
> > > > > present during the dry season,
>
> > > > It's regrettable you can't provide us access to your imagination so
> > > > that we could confirm that assertion.
>
> > > It's regrettable you can't read. But again for the illterate or
> > > senile:  Su and Harrison 2008, Hay and Leakey 1982.
>
> > Do you think it's not obvious that if you actually had a quote that
> > supported this assertion then you would just provide it and you would
> > not require you audience to assume your creative reading skills.

No response.

> > > > > there were no communities of
> > > > > hominids left to shift to territorialism at that location.
>
> > > > > Without a permanent source of water (and a dry season lasting
> > > > > most of the year) it would be impossible for year-round
> > > > > garden-like occupation for hominids at Laetoli, territorial,
> > > > > communal,
> > > > > or otherwise.
>
> > > > Evidence?
>
> > > Reference given. Are you senile? Or do you think ingnoring references
> > > in this thread and previos threads multiple times means you get new
> > > strikes? Try to stay awake in class.

It must be frustrating that you can't reference your imagination.

> > I read your references.
>
> So you didn't read very well.

I lack you creative reading skills.

> >  They just don't support your claims.
>
> Yes they do.
>
> > In
> > fact, in one you indicate that there were springs
>
> .....in the margins. Try to read for comprhension
>
> > and streams
>
> Nice try at bait and switch. They didn't say streams. They said
> "ephemeral" which means "dry" most of the year, a point which you
> managed to leave out of  your reply.  This is not consistent with
> gardens, except possibly during the short wet season.
> I think I see your problem now, you simply can't read.
>
> (snip rest of reply until you can learn to read for comprehension)

You don't need year round rain to have garden habitat. In fact if it
did rain year round you'd have rainforest.

[Lee Olsen]

Feb 3, 7:47 pm Claudius Denk <claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> No response.

How much more of a response do you think you need?

So you didn't read very well.

> They just don't support your claims.


Yes they do.


> In
> fact, in one you indicate that there were springs


.....in the margins. Try to read for comprhension


> and streams

Nice try at bait and switch. They didn't say streams. They said
"ephemeral" which means "dry" most of the year, a point which you
managed to leave out of your reply. This is not consistent with
gardens, except possibly during the short wet season.
I think I see your problem now, you simply can't read.

(snip rest of reply until you can learn to read for comprehension)

That applies to just about every comment you have ever made on this
list.
So go back to school... try learning to read before taking up
something as complicated as anthropology.

[Claudius Denk]

On Feb 3, 8:17 pm, Lee Olsen <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Feb 3, 7:47 pm Claudius Denk <claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > No response.
>
> How much more of a response do you think you need?
>
> So you didn't read very well.
>
> >  They just don't support your claims.
>
> Yes they do.

If the authors of the paper do no advertise the paper as providing a
definitive assessment of garden habitat at that location why pretend
otherwise. You just make yourself look desperate or stupid.
Seriously. Why bother?

>
> > In
> > fact, in one you indicate that there were springs
>
> .....in the margins. Try to read for comprhension
>
> > and streams
>
> Nice try at bait and switch. They didn't say streams. They said
> "ephemeral" which means "dry" most of the year, a point which you
> managed to leave out of  your reply.  This is not consistent with
> gardens, except possibly during the short wet season.
> I think I see your problem now, you simply can't read.
>
> (snip rest of reply until you can learn to read for comprehension)
>
> That applies to just about every comment you have ever made on this
> list.
> So go back to school... try learning to read before taking up
> something as complicated as anthropology.

I don't know why you bother, Lee. It's not like anybody reading this
won't just go upthread and see the questions that you are avoiding.

[Lee Olsen]

On Feb 3, 9:25 pm, Claudius Denk <claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>
> I don't know why you bother, Lee.  It's not like anybody reading this
> won't just go upthread and see the questions that you are avoiding.

Feb 3, 7:47 pm Claudius Denk <claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:


> No response.


How much more of a response do you think you need?

So you didn't read very well.

> They just don't support your claims.

Yes they do.

[RichTravsky]

Claudius Denk wrote:
>
> On Jan 30, 9:16 am, Lee Olsen <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 30, 6:49 am, Claudius Denk <claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> > > predatory sieges
> >
> > Message-ID: <a6fc2a3b-6d14-4244-8a1e-
> > ee59b8141...@h12g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>
> > McGinn (alias C. Denk): "Seasonal migration would
> > have been absolutely impossible for the earliest
> > hominids--A'pith."
>
> You failed to address any of the arguments I made that underlie this
> assertion: bipedalism not being good for migration, necessity of
> proximity to trees to evade predators, predator infested treeless
> habitat surrounding the treed, garden-like, communal site, etc.
>
> > Since A'piths ranged from Hadar to South Africa
> > and our tree-dependent cousins, chimps/gorillas,
> > did not it is impossible to falsify the
> > possibility A'piths migrated to South Africa on
> > the grasslands.
>
> That's a pretty dumb argument. Some species of trees are wide
> ranging. Certainly you wouldn't suggest that they are seasonally
> migrational.

That's a moronic argument. Bipedal australopiths (and later, homo)
ranged all over Africa. Do you think they FLEW?

> > The evidence at Laetoli shows the tracks were made
> > on a migration trail
>
> Reference?

LOL, JimJim wants a cite? HAHAHAHAH

Hey, it's up to you to be aware of the evidence. We don't do your homework
for you. Google is your friend.

> > Since the evidence at Laetoli clearly shows hominids were not
> > present during the dry season,
>
> Reference?

Hey, it's up to you to be aware of the evidence. We don't do your homework
for you. Google is your friend.

> > there were no communities of
> > hominids left to shift to territorialism at that location.
> >
> > Without a permanent source of water
>
> Evidence? Reference?

Hey, it's up to you to be aware of the evidence. We don't do your homework
for you. Google is your friend.

> > (and a dry season lasting
> > most of the year) it would be impossible for year-round
> > garden-like occupation for hominids at Laetoli, territorial,
> > communal,
> > or otherwise.
> >
> > "Thus, the balance of evidence suggests that the Laetoli
> > paleoenvironment was predominantly open woodland, with
> > significant portions of open bushland, shrubland,
> > and grassland (Su and Harrison 2008:7)."
> >
> > "Reconstructed depositional environments and the absence of
> > aquatic elements in the fauna and flora at Laetoli indicate that there
> > were no permanent rivers or lakes. Water sources were apparently
> > restricted to springs and small seasonal rivers, streams, and ponds
> > (Hay, 1981, 1987; Harris, 1987; Bonnevlle and Riollet, 1987:8)."
>
> Is this not consistent with garden habitat?

No. Why would it?

[Claudius Denk]

The best you could argue is that there is no evidence that positively
confirms that there was garden habitat in the vicinity. But seasonal
dryness is not only not a problem for my hypothesis, it's essential.

[Lee Olsen]

Without an irrigation system during the lengthy dry season, garden-
like habitat becomes just another just-so story.

Of course they could have evolved a tongue like a rasp like the year-
round residents (rhinos, giraffes).
Tell me something Jim, what do acacia thorns taste like?

[Claudius Denk]

Conclusions based on lack of evidence don't convince me much.

[Lee Olsen]

So your lack of evidence doesn't trouble you?

[Claudius Denk]

Only desperate fools base conclusions on lack of evidence to the
contrary.

[Lee Olsen]

Well, thanks for finally admitting you are a desparate fool.

[RichTravsky]

Obviously there is no direct evidence of *any* behavior millions of
years ago.

[RichTravsky]

Claudius Denk wrote:
> On Feb 8, 6:53 am, Lee Olsen <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On Feb 6, 7:23 am, Claudius Denk <claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > > On Feb 5, 3:48 pm, RichTravsky <traRvE...@hotmMOVEail.com> wrote:
> > > > Claudius Denk wrote:
> > > > > On Jan 30, 9:16 am, Lee Olsen <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Jan 30, 6:49 am, Claudius Denk <claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > predatory sieges
> >

Obviously there is no direct evidence of *any* behavior millions of
years ago.

So, what do you base YOUR hypothesis on since you admit there isn't any
evidence...?

[RichTravsky]

So, uh, what evidence did you base your hypothesis on?

[RichTravsky]

[RichTravsky]

[Claudius Denk]

You anthro groupies are so childish with your out of context quotes.

[RichTravsky]

Feel free to explain the context then, anthro groupie...

[RichTravsky]

[RichTravsky]

[RichTravsky]

[RichTravsky]

[RichTravsky]

Claudius Denk wrote:
> On Feb 8, 6:43 pm, Lee Olsen <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On Feb 8, 5:30 pm, Claudius Denk <claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > > On Feb 8, 6:53 am, Lee Olsen <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Feb 6, 7:23 am, Claudius Denk <claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > > > > On Feb 5, 3:48 pm, RichTravsky <traRvE...@hotmMOVEail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > Claudius Denk wrote:
> > > > > > > On Jan 30, 9:16 am, Lee Olsen <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Jan 30, 6:49 am, Claudius Denk <claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > predatory sieges

[RichTravsky]

How bout that, eh Dimmie?

[RichTravsky]

[Claudius Denk]

If you believe direct evidence exists then it's incumbent on you to
provide it.

[RichTravsky]

[Claudius Denk]

If you deny the existence of the evidence then why even participate in
a discussion based on it.

[Claudius Denk]

So, you'r saying that since you believe you are right that, therefore,
you are right?

[RichTravsky]

It's YOUR hypothesis, it's incumbent upon YOU to provide it.

[RichTravsky]

LOL - you are the one denying there's any evidence! It's right up above,
Dim Jim!

[RichTravsky]

Responding twice to the same post? Must be getting to you!

[Claudius Denk]

> > The standard evidence that generally associated with this discipline: paleoanthropology. Do you have a dispute with this evidence?
>
> No response.

>
> > >  Obviously there is no direct evidence of *any* behavior millions of
> > >  years ago.
>
> > > How bout that, eh Dimmie?
>
> > If you believe direct evidence exists then it's incumbent on you to
> > provide it.
>
> It's YOUR hypothesis, it's incumbent upon YOU to provide it.

Well, uh, I do not accept your premise that I'm obligated to dispute
something that, as you confirmed, exists only in your imagination.

[RichTravsky]

No answer? LOL

[RichTravsky]

Well, uh, it was YOU confirming there's no evidence, Dimmie.

Obviously there is no direct evidence of *any* behavior millions of
years ago.

Consequently, your hypothesis only exists in YOUR imagination...

[RichTravsky]

Run, Forrest, run!

[Claudius Denk]

[Jim McGinn]

On Tuesday, January 31, 2012 at 6:34:15 PM UTC-8, Claudius Denk wrote:
> On Jan 30, 9:16 am, Lee Olsen <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 30, 6:49 am, Claudius Denk <claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> > > predatory sieges
> >

> > Message-ID: <a6fc2a3b-6d14-4244-8a1e-
> > ee59b8141...@h12g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>

> > McGinn (alias C. Denk): "Seasonal migration would
> > have been absolutely impossible for the earliest
> > hominids--A'pith."
>
> You failed to address any of the arguments I made that underlie this
> assertion: bipedalism not being good for migration, necessity of
> proximity to trees to evade predators, predator infested treeless
> habitat surrounding the treed, garden-like, communal site, etc.
>
> > Since A'piths ranged from Hadar to South Africa
> > and our tree-dependent cousins, chimps/gorillas,
> > did not it is impossible to falsify the
> > possibility A'piths migrated to South Africa on
> > the grasslands.
>
> That's a pretty dumb argument. Some species of trees are wide
> ranging. Certainly you wouldn't suggest that they are seasonally
> migrational.
>

> > The evidence at Laetoli shows the tracks were made
> > on a migration trail
>
> Reference?
>

> > and the isotopes of their teeth
> > show they were eating C4 (savanna) grass or eating
> > something that was eating C4 grass (like the migrating
> > fauna who made the trails in the first place).
>
> Yeah, so?
>
> > Message-ID: <a6fc2a3b-6d14-4244-8a1e-
> > ee59b8141...@h12g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>
> > McGinn (alias C. Denk): "They were completely
> > dependent on trees to evade predators."
> >
> > Predators defined by McGinn as being:http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=53654
> > "lions, tigers, hyenas, dogs, etc."
> >
> > The claim of lions and tigers 7 mya can be construed as
> > nothing less than falsifying data.
> >
> > One might evade a dog by climing a tree, but since
> > lions or tigers had not evolved 7 mya, and the ancestors
> > of panthera could climb trees, one can be sure A'piths were
> > not tree dependent anymore than baboons are today,
> > even though baboons can climb trees, they do just
> > fine on the grasslands also.
> >
> > Jan 23, 7:19 am
> > McGinn (alias C. Denk): "My hypothesis describes a shift
> > to pest control agricultrure, communal territorialism as
> > a strategy to survive the dry season and its dramatic
> > predatory implications."

> >
> > Since the evidence at Laetoli clearly shows hominids were not
> > present during the dry season,
>
> Reference?
>

> > there were no communities of
> > hominids left to shift to territorialism at that location.
> >
> > Without a permanent source of water
>
> Evidence? Reference?
>

> > (and a dry season lasting
> > most of the year) it would be impossible for year-round
> > garden-like occupation for hominids at Laetoli, territorial,
> > communal,
> > or otherwise.
> >
> > "Thus, the balance of evidence suggests that the Laetoli
> > paleoenvironment was predominantly open woodland, with
> > significant portions of open bushland, shrubland,
> > and grassland (Su and Harrison 2008:7)."
> >
> > "Reconstructed depositional environments and the absence of
> > aquatic elements in the fauna and flora at Laetoli indicate that there
> > were no permanent rivers or lakes. Water sources were apparently
> > restricted to springs and small seasonal rivers, streams, and ponds
> > (Hay, 1981, 1987; Harris, 1987; Bonnevlle and Riollet, 1987:8)."
>
> Is this not consistent with garden habitat?
>

> > Denise F. Su, Terry Harrison
> > Ecological implications of the relative rarity of fossil hominins at
> > Laetoli
> > Journal of Human Evolution 55 (2008) 672-681
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/Dfqjt
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/nN7nT
> >
> > > feeding frenzies
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/eP38U
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/YFxdI
> >
> > > late miocene east africa
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/am6KL
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/EpvGv
> >
> > > 8.1 mya
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/Bj86a
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/BvvGU
> >
> > > monsoon climate
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/0xohz
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/0B670
> >
> > > patfchification
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/aQTN1
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/x2e2J
> >
> > > treed localities
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/siIau
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/9KqRh
> >
> > > treeless habitat
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/fw0ib
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/nTiQS
> >
> > > social predators
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/WvD8M
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/eZ2OZ
> >
> > > stationary existence
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/oy0vX
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/B8zNL
> >
> > > depths of the dry season
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/jtKqF
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/45ELU
> >
> > > feeding frenzy
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/IBZyh
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/wnqwM
> >
> > > massacre
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/Soj1Y
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/RAV2K
> >
> > > local extinction
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/QsLbu
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/XHqNL
> >
> > > community of Apith
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/uE4Bp
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/krcI0
> >
> > > throwing rocks and wielding sticks
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/PECNr
> >
> > >http://goo.gl/68t57

top

[Jim McGinn]

On Monday, January 30, 2012 at 6:49:33 AM UTC-8, Claudius Denk wrote:
> predatory sieges

[The rich & famous JTEM]

After a gazillion offensive spams on
Tumblr, I had blocked everything
Goo.gl so I can't follow any of your
links.





-- --

http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/12130607487

[Jim McGinn]

On Saturday, November 26, 2016 at 9:57:29 PM UTC-8, The rich & famous JTEM wrote:
> After a gazillion offensive spams on
> Tumblr, I had blocked everything
> Goo.gl so I can't follow any of your
> links.

The links are probably dead anyways. You could do google searches.

Ultimately, it all comes down to the fact that all hominid adaptations could only have evolved in the context of a communal setting. So the first thing you have to conceptualize are the conditional factors that would force chimps to settle into a community and begin to defend its resources. The emergence of the monsoon climate--a distinct dry season--is that thing. Only if they cooperated to defend these resources is there any possibility that they could collectively survive the predatory massacres of the dry season.